Quote from: jhkim;1080978Well, I'm running D&D games and discussing them and developing material - but I pretty sure I'm seen as the side that is supposedly taking things over.

I have no issues with Pundit's rant from the OP - I think people should create their own D&D material, so that even if the mainstream of the current D&D edition passes you by, there should still be the OSR, Pathfinder, and create new movements as people see fit.

I think there should be SJW D&D for SJW-leaning folks, conservative D&D for conservative folks, and heck, Alathon is welcome to make his own ethno-nationalist D&D branch. It's not like there has to be only one.

Uhoh, John, you just went on record as welcoming Ethno-Nationalist RPGs.  You even made it sound like Alathon should be allowed to exist within the hobby.  Wonder how long before that comes back to bite you in the behind.

Quote from: jhkim;1080978Well, I'm running D&D games and discussing them and developing material - but I pretty sure I'm seen as the side that is supposedly taking things over.

I have no issues with Pundit's rant from the OP - I think people should create their own D&D material, so that even if the mainstream of the current D&D edition passes you by, there should still be the OSR, Pathfinder, and create new movements as people see fit.

I think there should be SJW D&D for SJW-leaning folks, conservative D&D for conservative folks, and heck, Alathon is welcome to make his own ethno-nationalist D&D branch. It's not like there has to be only one.

I know that most people I talk to aren't worried about fringe groups doing their own thing. They're worried that these groups are the new norm. It's not a pleasant thing being squeezed out of your own hobby. The products you used to love are suddenly spouting weird political messages filled with made up Newspeak. It's hard for people to give up a thing that to some extent defined who they are by virtue of being a strong part of their childhood. It's like going back to your home town and discovering you're no longer welcome.

RPGpundit is completely correct on this issue, even if the "community" gets taken over you can exercise your free will and do your own thing. I think WOTC/Hasbro secretly know this and it is why they still have the old editions available as pdf. Believe me it's a good thing, they could have taken the route of a company like Games Workshop that doesn't even acknowledge past products like Warhammer or Dwarves in 40k, you get kicked out of the store if you want to play old editions.

As for creating your own materiel and settings take it from Shia:

[video=youtube_share;ZXsQAXx_ao0]https://youtu.be/ZXsQAXx_ao0[/youtube]

Quote from: jhkimI think there should be SJW D&D for SJW-leaning folks, conservative D&D for conservative folks, and heck, Alathon is welcome to make his own ethno-nationalist D&D branch. It's not like there has to be only one.

Quote from: Stegosaurus;1081076I know that most people I talk to aren't worried about fringe groups doing their own thing. They're worried that these groups are the new norm. It's not a pleasant thing being squeezed out of your own hobby. The products you used to love are suddenly spouting weird political messages filled with made up Newspeak. It's hard for people to give up a thing that to some extent defined who they are by virtue of being a strong part of their childhood. It's like going back to your home town and discovering you're no longer welcome.

The norm is defined by what the majority of people do. If there are enough gamers who like, say, LGBT characters in their D&D modules - then that is the new norm. If you don't like that, then you would then be on the fringe.

But fringes are perfectly capable of sustaining themselves. Second-tier systems like the OSR, GURPS, Hero System, Amber Diceless, and others have lots of devoted players and plenty of material. I've been more-or-less on the fringe in terms of my gaming taste for ages. It's not the end of the world.

From my view, old-school gamers should recruit for their old-school games - and old-school designers should create more old-school material. Players and designers of other styles should recruit and design for their own styles. The two can exist side-by-side, and it isn't necessary to gnash one's teeth over how other people play their games. In the past, I was always a thorny annoyance to some others on the fringe because I didn't condemn D&D or other mainstream games.

Quote from: jhkim;1081112The norm is defined by what the majority of people do. If there are enough gamers who like, say, LGBT characters in their D&D modules - then that is the new norm. If you don't like that, then you would then be on the fringe.

Most people are indifferent and apathetic, which is why the fringes can often dictate policy. It's not as though a game like D&D has enough market feedback to know how many customers really want explicit references to transgendered characters in D&D adventures. The people in charge of the game do know how much shit they'll take on social media from an extremely passionate element of the market if they don't include it, so they make performative gestures to placate that element.

We live in an era when 1,000 people who are active on Twitter can have far more influence than 50,000 people who rarely engage with social media.

But that's the basic problem of politics. Activists of whatever stripes that determine the direction of things, while the passivist general public trots along.

Quote from: Haffrung;1081114Most people are indifferent and apathetic, which is why the fringes can often dictate policy. It's not as though a game like D&D has enough market feedback to know how many customers really want explicit references to transgendered characters in D&D adventures.

I think WotC is one of the few companies actually able to conduct real market research to find out what players really want rather than just browsing on Twitter. I have seen market research that they've done in the past, and it seems pretty solid. They have done actual randomized surveys of the public to find their audience. This lets them characterize how the real audience differs from the different channels they have to them - including conventions, organized play, and feedback from game stores as well as social media.

They might make bad decisions based on that data - but at least they have access to the data, which is more than the vast majority of game companies have.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1081129But that's the basic problem of politics. Activists of whatever stripes that determine the direction of things, while the passivist general public trots along.

However the free market can trump all that, my guess is that if a company were to swing one way the free market would kick in and bad craziness would go away. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play a new edition or buy it. The only thing that has to happen is for companies and individuals to swoop in and make up the slack and fill the voids left by the big companies. OSR is proof of that, small guys pumping out the edgy shit that SJW's and normies won't even touch.

Quote from: Blink_Dog;1081134However the free market can trump all that, my guess is that if a company were to swing one way the free market would kick in and bad craziness would go away. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play a new edition or buy it. The only thing that has to happen is for companies and individuals to swoop in and make up the slack and fill the voids left by the big companies. OSR is proof of that, small guys pumping out the edgy shit that SJW's and normies won't even touch.

Yes.  I'll continue to play D&D (and buy some products) as long as they don't push me too far. If they think catering to another crowd is worth losing my business over, nothing much I can do about it.  

I won't be passive, though.  I'll be out.  I don't write my own version of "D&D" because I can buy something close enough to what I want.  If I can't, then I'll make my own.  And if that is too much trouble, I'll find some other way to occupy my time.  It's why I don't watch the NFL anymore.  I haven't seen more than 1 new movie a year in the last decade--and even more rarely in the theater.  I'm very picky about which new books I buy.  Nothing special about games that they can't get the same treatment.

I'm just one person.  The bit pitfall for WotC (or any company trying to push the envelope) is that a customer rebellion tends to be like a revolution.  It's a "preference cascade".  Nothing happens until it really happens.  Then it is too late.  It's why Netscape, to pick just one example, is no longer a product.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be "sjw D&D games" for people with that sort of politics. I'm saying there's a problem when the SJWs want to take over D&D because they are very clear about feeling there shouldn't be ANY non-sjw games.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1081194I'm not saying there shouldn't be "sjw D&D games" for people with that sort of politics. I'm saying there's a problem when the SJWs want to take over D&D because they are very clear about feeling there shouldn't be ANY non-sjw games.

And they want to kick out anyone who isn't as 'Pure' as they are.  I'm right there with you.

It's fine if a game is a SJW gender fluid diversity love fest.  It's when they claim we're wrong for not wanting the same.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1081137Yes.  I'll continue to play D&D (and buy some products) as long as they don't push me too far. If they think catering to another crowd is worth losing my business over, nothing much I can do about it.  

I won't be passive, though.  I'll be out.  I don't write my own version of "D&D" because I can buy something close enough to what I want.  If I can't, then I'll make my own.  And if that is too much trouble, I'll find some other way to occupy my time.  It's why I don't watch the NFL anymore.  I haven't seen more than 1 new movie a year in the last decade--and even more rarely in the theater.  I'm very picky about which new books I buy.  Nothing special about games that they can't get the same treatment.

I'm just one person.  The bit pitfall for WotC (or any company trying to push the envelope) is that a customer rebellion tends to be like a revolution.  It's a "preference cascade".  Nothing happens until it really happens.  Then it is too late.  It's why Netscape, to pick just one example, is no longer a product.

Greetings!

Isn't that the truth, my friend? I've done nearly the same thing. I used to be a lifelong fan of the NFL--and the whole "Anthem Controversy" of the last two years, and the owners waffling and squirming about it--just entirely turned me off of being a fan. I haven't watched a NFL game since. I'm of the opinion that every football player, when he's in uniform, had better stand for our national Anthem. Failure to do so, "taking a knee" and all that nonsense is just so disrespectful, they should be fired. It's that simple. They can protest anything they want to *on their own time*--but come football time, I don't expect them to disrespect my flag and my country for any bullshit reason. I don't care what they're into--whatever it is, it has no place on the football field. There are professional standards of courtesy, respect, and good manners that simply must be observed, no exceptions. I've had public-behavior standards in my work, governing how I dress, how I behave, how I speak--it's no different for them. The fact that so many of them seem to think it *is different* for them, well, they can go fuck themselves. I'll never watch a football game again, or give them a nickel. Evidently, there's quite a number of fellow football fans that entirely agree. That's the way that goes, you know?

I'm also not hot on most of what Hollywood puts into the movie theaters, so I haven't gone to the theater to see a stupid movie and get raked in the ticket and food prices in two years now.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RPGPundit;1081194I'm not saying there shouldn't be "sjw D&D games" for people with that sort of politics. I'm saying there's a problem when the SJWs want to take over D&D because they are very clear about feeling there shouldn't be ANY non-sjw games.

Actually no there shouldnt be any SJW games because it is a poisonous mindset. And their ideas of what is a non-SJW product can and will change on a dime till eventually EVERYTHING is bad and must be put an end to. Eventually they will determine that RPGs promote thinking, and thinking is BAD! These RPG things have to be ended. And those storygames too. Oh and even just telling a story. Horrible practice. Time to end it so no one ever thinks again.

Quote from: SHARK;1081203I'm of the opinion that every football player, when he's in uniform, had better stand for our national Anthem. Failure to do so, "taking a knee" and all that nonsense is just so disrespectful, they should be fired. It's that simple.

Big fan of corporate-mandated nationalism? Kim Jong-un and other Stalinist, cultural-Marxist fascists everywhere salute you, comrade!

Also, doesn't this NFL/Hollywood discussion (rant?) fall completely outside the "RPG hobby"? Isn't that now a ban-able offense or did I misread Pundit's warning?

Quote from: Omega;1081257Actually no there shouldnt be any SJW games because it is a poisonous mindset. And their ideas of what is a non-SJW product can and will change on a dime till eventually EVERYTHING is bad and must be put an end to. Eventually they will determine that RPGs promote thinking, and thinking is BAD! These RPG things have to be ended. And those storygames too. Oh and even just telling a story. Horrible practice. Time to end it so no one ever thinks again.

This was sarcasm, right?

Because if not... that's the most "SJW-thinking" thing I've read on this board for at least a few weeks. You're advocating suppression of thought and speech, just like, supposedly, the people you're decrying.