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There's a lot stupid about WoTC's Woke Ravenloft setting for Dungeons and Dragons. But here's what I think is dumbest!
#DnD #dnd5e #ttrpg #OSR

I already had my mind made up that this was going to be horrid based upon what I've read from the writers' frequent posts about their "changes". So this video wasn't that enlightening. However, it did serve one good purpose. It reminded me that I had yet to purchase Star Adventurer. So I remedied that about two minutes into the video. Settling in to read now.

Quote from: Dropbear on May 09, 2021, 10:07:31 PM
I already had my mind made up that this was going to be horrid based upon what I've read from the writers' frequent posts about their "changes". So this video wasn't that enlightening. However, it did serve one good purpose. It reminded me that I had yet to purchase Star Adventurer. So I remedied that about two minutes into the video. Settling in to read now.

Excellent! Thank you very much!

I suppose in hindsight it was inevitable -- "safe spaces" and the horror genre are really very hard to render compatible -- but I admit to still being surprised that nobody quite grasped the idea that telling people to make a horror setting not scary is the single biggest self-own I've ever seen.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 11, 2021, 11:39:40 AM
I suppose in hindsight it was inevitable -- "safe spaces" and the horror genre are really very hard to render compatible -- but I admit to still being surprised that nobody quite grasped the idea that telling people to make a horror setting not scary is the single biggest self-own I've ever seen.

That would be because you have a functioning brain and you perceive the inherent contradiction.

I'm starting to think I'll need a version of Q's famous line from the Star Trek: TNG episode 'Q Who' when I run something darker than PG.

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 11, 2021, 03:18:19 PMI'm starting to think I'll need a version of Q's famous line from the Star Trek: TNG episode 'Q Who' when I run something darker than PG.

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

I don't disagree, though I have to admit the particular original context of that line has always pissed me off: it always struck me as intensely hypocritical for an immortal, invulnerable godlike being, who knows neither fear nor grief, to dismiss eighteen dead people as nothing more than a bloody nose.

I always preferred something like, "A ship which never leaves the harbour is perfectly safe from storms. But that's not what ships are for."

Q was always full of shit, even when he was a beeing judging humanity he was aloof. Sometime the trickster angle made him obscure that fact but.. while entertaing, he was quite an arogant prick. Imho.
I really did like his episodes thou, making light of the ''stiff upper lip'' atmosphere in tng was a breath of clean air.

Back to the main topic. Ravenloft beeing made pg/defanged/nerfed.. i dunno, if they want to play the game for children or adults who cant handle horror then thats oke. As i get older i start to give some poeple a lot more leeway than before(and i always gave a lot). In horror games, the gm must be ready to really give the emotions of the players a good trashing. If they say they dont want to be scared then just play another game? Personally i dont give a shit, theres too many options to choose. Will i judge the people who cant handle that game diffrently? Sure, thats my prerogative. If people want to be handled with kids gloves then that means they have serious issues. In those cases i would even reconsider playing with them. A gm must lay down the ramifications of what will be played at the table yes. Its so the game is enjoyable. Yet if a game company thinks they are supposed to be doing that then they are off their rocker. Homebrews and headcannons exist for a reason. Nobody will take this shit seriously if they read other things produced in the past.

So, what can nu-Ravenloft be summed up as? Lame. 

Quote from: Warder on May 11, 2021, 06:30:27 PM
I really did like his episodes though, making light of the ''stiff upper lip'' atmosphere in tng was a breath of clean air.

Ah, well there I'll agree with you. :)

QuoteAs i get older i start to give some poeple a lot more leeway than before(and i always gave a lot). In horror games, the gm must be ready to really give the emotions of the players a good trashing. If they say they dont want to be scared then just play another game?

Makes perfect sense to me. I wouldn't even disagree with putting in a page or two near the back headed something like "Scooby Von Zarovich: Playing Ravenloft in Silly Mode", with GMing tips and alternate rules so you can play in that kind of style.

But it's this default assumption that you have to default to erring away from psychological intensity, in the name of the players' mental health, that just throws me. Is the current population of gamers really so prone to emotional vulnerability that this kind of eggshell-walking has to be built into a game? (Don't answer that. God, I sound old. I am old.)

Tannhauser, your not old, your old school:)

German folklore was meant to scare the shit out of kids. It was supposed to teach them the world was not a place with only good people, it had bad ones in it too. And the kids grew up as normal people. I wonder how the current generation will turn out?

The dumbest thing about the new Ravenloft are the customers.

It's not like the retard noise wasn't trumpeted before it hit the shelves, nor is any of the woke bullshit any surprise and it's not like the PDF wasn't a few clicks away if you wanted to read it before purchase.

Meh.  At this point it's obvious that WotC only cares about attempting to expand a customer base of 20 somethings who will shortly leave the hobby for shear boredom much less not having time to game anymore.  They would rather leave the sweet discretionary income of the Boomers and GenXers that built the brand name in those pockets.

I gave up on WotC's vision of Ravenloft after Curse of Strahd back in 2016. I haven't heard anything to change my mind yet.  ;)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 11, 2021, 10:07:32 PM
I gave up on WotC's vision of Ravenloft after Curse of Strahd back in 2016. I haven't heard anything to change my mind yet.  ;)

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was the one that showed me WOTC isn't the right fit for Ravenloft. I had hopes though for this. But it definitely doesn't look like something for me.

Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 11, 2021, 10:07:32 PM
I gave up on WotC's vision of Ravenloft after Curse of Strahd back in 2016. I haven't heard anything to change my mind yet.  ;)

I gave up on WotC's vision of D&D after they made Tieflings and Dragonborn fanfic official standard races back in 2008. I haven't heard anything to change my mind yet.  :o

My lack of faith on anything else from them just flows from there... :P

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

In addition to the maps, the atmosphere was good, and so was the the dynamic nature of key plot elements.

But otherwise, I mostly agree. It's overrated.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

I would not say its stupid. But its execution is... odd to say the least. Its an area intended to keep the PCs in there till the problem is solved. This is not like way Ghost Tower of Iverness were theres a deadline to get the job done and the PCs are convicts sent in to get said job done. Instead In Ravenloft the PCs are one way or another suckered into this prison realm and from then on its do-or-die.

The Ravenloft boxed sets campaign settings actually make more sense as its a super prison for the things within rather than a vexing prison for the PCs. Well ok it can be that too. But its almost incidental to keeping the whatevers locked up and frustrated as one adventurer group or another messes with their plans.

I think the original Ravenloft module gets alot more praise that it warrants. But it hied off into practically new territory and even now one can appreciate that.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 12, 2021, 12:15:17 AMI gave up on WotC's vision of D&D after they made Tieflings and Dragonborn fanfic official standard races back in 2008. I haven't heard anything to change my mind yet.  :o

My lack of faith on anything else from them just flows from there... :P

Its an odd choice to be sure. But its better than WOTC inserting the Wrenn or other Alternity races as official core races. Just weird to see them in say Secrets of Saltmarsh as Greyhawk has a long running problem with demonic forces. So does Blackmoor for that matter.

Planescape made tieflings popular and no idea where Dragonborn come from. Prior to that everyone seemed to be ga-ga for half-dragons. ugh.

But at the end of the day the DM can prune the tree as little or as much as they want.
Humans only? Done.
Elf only? Done.
Tiefling only? Done.

I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

Quote from: Omega on May 12, 2021, 02:58:10 AM
Planescape made tieflings popular and no idea where Dragonborn come from. Prior to that everyone seemed to be ga-ga for half-dragons. ugh.

Dragonborn came from the Draconians in Dragonlance. They have always been a set-up for a re-issue of that setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 12, 2021, 06:56:52 AM
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

  That's arguably a symptom of Ravenloft sort of falling between two stools--was it mean to be a standalone setting with a horror flavor, or was it meant to be the 'Twilight Zone' of D&D? The 1E modules may also have had an impact, with their tendency to be used as drop-ins. Early 2E material, 4E, and 5E have gone for the 'Twilight Zone' or 'Weekend in Hell' feel, while later 2E and 3E favored Ravenloft as a setting in itself.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 12, 2021, 06:56:52 AM
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

I really like the idea of a patchwork map. A significant amount of consistency keeps the weirdness but prevents Ravenloft from just becoming another Astral Plane, where everything is next to everything else. And once that's established, it makes sense within the setting as well. Realms may break off and the Mists may not always be reliable, but explorers are still going to try for their best guess at a map.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 12, 2021, 06:56:52 AM
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

IIRC,  they used that in 2e to explain why the domain borders were left open. Even undead dread lords felt the need to have trade between their domain and others. Oh, and the trade allowed for spies (byond the Vistani) so they could each keep track of what the others learned about escaping the demiplane. It never really felt fitting to the mood of the setting to me.

Greetings!

In reading commentary about the new *Woke* Ravenloft 5E, it strikes me as strange and childish why anyone would want to run a Ravenloft game as some kind of Disneyfied PG setting. We can't have a game about Gothic Horror be actually scary, or disturbing, or unsettling in any way--everyone has to giggle and feel safe. That just seems to entirely contradict the entire genre and purpose of Gothic Horror. If these people want safe spaces, why not just stick to playing the My Little Pony RPG?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

i mean most of the gothic horror books from the actual period are all pretty dry so it's in keeping with the literature. unless you're scared shitless by a figure of a corpse behind a black veil, then by all means jack off to Mysteries of Udolpho and lament the sanitizing of the genre all you want.

Horror is general is kind of hard to do unless you're running a game specifically wired from the start for it.

I always had a bit of dislike for Ravenloft due to how common powers checks seemed to be for doing anything antisocial.

Meanwhile, throwing terrifying critters into a standard game can result in some darkly comic moments. My group had one of those where a gug tried to ambush us during a fight with yeth hounds. Unfortunately, the next PC to act after the gug arrived was my sorcerer, who promptly killed him with finger of death. Whoops. Hard to be horrifying when the PCs can wreck your shit.

(The joke for the rest of the campaign was that I had flipped the gug off and killed him that way.)

Quote from: SHARK on May 12, 2021, 12:52:57 PM
Greetings!

In reading commentary about the new *Woke* Ravenloft 5E, it strikes me as strange and childish why anyone would want to run a Ravenloft game as some kind of Disneyfied PG setting. We can't have a game about Gothic Horror be actually scary, or disturbing, or unsettling in any way--everyone has to giggle and feel safe. That just seems to entirely contradict the entire genre and purpose of Gothic Horror. If these people want safe spaces, why not just stick to playing the My Little Pony RPG?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Disney long ago Disneyfied stories like Cinderella,  Snow White, and the Little Mermaid. Their versions are generally well received. So don't be too surprised if others take the same route with something like Ravenloft because D&D isn't sacred and people are going to take it wherever they want.

Quote from: Pat on May 12, 2021, 09:44:33 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 12, 2021, 06:56:52 AM
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

I really like the idea of a patchwork map. A significant amount of consistency keeps the weirdness but prevents Ravenloft from just becoming another Astral Plane, where everything is next to everything else. And once that's established, it makes sense within the setting as well. Realms may break off and the Mists may not always be reliable, but explorers are still going to try for their best guess at a map.

IIRC from comparing and contrasting the two 2e TSR box sets it was each a part:

a) keeping it different from the Astral as it is the Deep Ethereal and needed at least some narrative cohesion for its romanticised gothic horror (basically more grounded sense of space, less delirium or disassociation),

b) the realms were once more isolated and/or nebulously tied to each other before, but were becoming closer and more reliably tied together during the lead up to the Grand Conjunction -- basically a meta-narrative crescendo of six adventures which *could be* played in a specific order to affect its trajectory,

c) and it gave cause for the Dark Lords to target one another in an effort to get free or get intel or just general expansion of their crapulent personalities. This provided two things: an easing up of Dark Lord focus upon upcoming heroes to rub their nose in their Dark Powers' punishment again, and opened a metagame arc for cross-domain adventures beyond 1e's typical "weekend in hell."

Whether that was all communicated quickly enough to users is another story.  :-X But overall it was a priority shift to do larger things with the property as a cohesive patchwork setting. Again, not hard to ignore and revert back to form, let alone shuffle around which you are invited to do, (except cautioned about some effects to the Grand Conjunction six-adventure connected arc, if you care).

Honestly? Ravenloft died for me the moment they gave it to White Wolf to do the 3e version.

Letting a company who stated that they hated D&D do a D&D product always was a non-starter for me.

Quote from: Omega on May 12, 2021, 02:48:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

I would not say its stupid. But its execution is... odd to say the least. Its an area intended to keep the PCs in there till the problem is solved. This is not like way Ghost Tower of Iverness were theres a deadline to get the job done and the PCs are convicts sent in to get said job done. Instead In Ravenloft the PCs are one way or another suckered into this prison realm and from then on its do-or-die.

The Ravenloft boxed sets campaign settings actually make more sense as its a super prison for the things within rather than a vexing prison for the PCs. Well ok it can be that too. But its almost incidental to keeping the whatevers locked up and frustrated as one adventurer group or another messes with their plans.

I think the original Ravenloft module gets alot more praise that it warrants. But it hied off into practically new territory and even now one can appreciate that.

I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

I always liked the in-setting world elements surrounding castle Ravenloft (like the Vistani, etc.) more than the actual setting itself, and wished they had just made Strahd's homeworld the actual world for a full blown gothic setting. But instead they made it this patchwork of different disjointed lands that are just bundled together with little rhyme or reason.

Another thing I think would have been better was the idea of using the concept of the Demiplane of Dread in reverse, were rather than the demiplane dragging an entire land into itself, the "Dark Powers" arrive to land instead. Infecting it with dark energies and a perpetual shadow over the entire region that draws creatures of darkness to it, forcing champions from all over the land to travel to that region to confront those Dark Powers and bring an end to them.

One of the ideas I had was to eliminate the Dark Powers entirely as a sapient force. The Demiplane of Dread acts as a kind of moral black hole, only permanently drawing in people who have permanently and irrevocably stained themselves with their acts.  Outside agents might be drawn into the Demiplane due to some form of planar conjunction or bad luck, but they're not truly trapped there unless they fall to corruption. Getting out might not be easy, but it's possible.

Quote from: Pat on May 12, 2021, 12:36:24 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

In addition to the maps, the atmosphere was good, and so was the the dynamic nature of key plot elements.

But otherwise, I mostly agree. It's overrated.

Remember that Ravenloft came out in 1982. No one had ever seen something similar, back in the day. It was the first module, for example, to present isometric maps - all done by hand.

I ran it once and it was a fine experience. One example of how "different" it was is the attitude of the players. Somehow they thought that it was "a horror house" with the vampire as the end boss. The characters were very surprised to meet Strahd right in front of his castle, surrounded by a score of his minions, angrily asking them "What they were thinking?" The party was beaten very badly, regrouped in a nearby tavern, and the players understood that they were entering a new territory: one where intelligent monsters actually behaved realistically.

I recently re-read Bram Stoker's Dracula and it did strike me quite how much material there is in there; and how thin Ravenloft was by comparison. The journey on the ship alone would make a great session. I think the horror of Dracula stems from the idea that some ancient evil from the furthest reaches of civilisation could come to your homeland and prey on you and your family in your own homes.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 12, 2021, 05:23:11 PM
I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

...
Another thing I think would have been better was the idea of using the concept of the Demiplane of Dread in reverse, were rather than the demiplane dragging an entire land into itself, the "Dark Powers" arrive to land instead. Infecting it with dark energies and a perpetual shadow over the entire region that draws creatures of darkness to it, forcing champions from all over the land to travel to that region to confront those Dark Powers and bring an end to them.

I think treating the Demiplane of Dread as a prison is a great way to emphasize a lot of horror themes. You're trapped -- and you deserve it. The campaign arc should be about redemption or doom, where you either escape for doing something great (even if the escape involves death, it still counts as a moral victory), or you fall and will be there forever. It should involve temptation, expedience, moral judgments, and the opportunity to become a Dark Lord.

Note I transitioned from the rule that Ravenloft is a prison to a specific campaign structure. Which was quite deliberate -- I think the decision about whether Ravenloft is a trap should be decided at the campaign level, not the setting level. It makes perfect sense for some campaigns, but not at all for others. Making it a blanket rule was a mistake.

The example of Ravenloft as an incursion is another campaign structure. It's a compelling idea, which is probably why it's brought up fairly frequently. Introduce the mists, and have them serve as a trap until something key to the realm is resolved, and then they fade away and the realm returns to normal. You defeat Ravenloft by resolving the crux of why the Mists arrived in the first place, i.e. by dealing with the Darklord. And defeating them once doesn't destroy the Dark Powers, it just causes them to move on. They could be discovered again, later in the campaign. Or attracted by the actions of an NPC, or even a PC.

Quote from: Reckall on May 12, 2021, 06:32:35 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 12, 2021, 12:36:24 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

In addition to the maps, the atmosphere was good, and so was the the dynamic nature of key plot elements.

But otherwise, I mostly agree. It's overrated.

Remember that Ravenloft came out in 1982. No one had ever seen something similar, back in the day. It was the first module, for example, to present isometric maps - all done by hand.

I ran it once and it was a fine experience. One example of how "different" it was is the attitude of the players. Somehow they thought that it was "a horror house" with the vampire as the end boss. The characters were very surprised to meet Strahd right in front of his castle, surrounded by a score of his minions, angrily asking them "What they were thinking?" The party was beaten very badly, regrouped in a nearby tavern, and the players understood that they were entering a new territory: one where intelligent monsters actually behaved realistically.

This was a concept they tried to carry into the line (in Feast of Goblyns they called it the Wandering Major Encounter). But basically meant villainous NPCs like this were treated as living characters who behaved organically.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 12, 2021, 06:56:52 AM
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

It looks like they are going with having each domain be its own space in the new version. Personally I preferred the way it was in black box, red box and DoD: a core continent but also many isolated islands of terror surrounded by mist. The former worked well for having adventures that involved more travel or more varied locations, the latter were great for monster of the week (which Ravenloft excelled at). It seems some people are happy with the shift, some aren't. While I don't prefer this change, I am not baffled by it like I am about their other changes (I at least get why they did it, and even emulated the isolated islands myself in a horror thing I did).

One thing I always did, and something I really think they should encourage people to do, is map out my own version of Ravenloft. By its nature it is very amorphous so you can have new domains forming all the time, the core can shift, you can have multiple cores, you can break up the core into islands. It has kind of a dreamy quality that works for that kind of customization, and customization means the players will be less familiar with the campaign setting even if they have read the material.

I am going to stick with the 2E stuff, and mostly cleave to the black box, with some of the DoD stuff that I liked. I only play it once in a while these days anyways.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 12, 2021, 05:23:11 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 12, 2021, 02:48:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

I would not say its stupid. But its execution is... odd to say the least. Its an area intended to keep the PCs in there till the problem is solved. This is not like way Ghost Tower of Iverness were theres a deadline to get the job done and the PCs are convicts sent in to get said job done. Instead In Ravenloft the PCs are one way or another suckered into this prison realm and from then on its do-or-die.

The Ravenloft boxed sets campaign settings actually make more sense as its a super prison for the things within rather than a vexing prison for the PCs. Well ok it can be that too. But its almost incidental to keeping the whatevers locked up and frustrated as one adventurer group or another messes with their plans.

I think the original Ravenloft module gets alot more praise that it warrants. But it hied off into practically new territory and even now one can appreciate that.

I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

I always liked the in-setting world elements surrounding castle Ravenloft (like the Vistani, etc.) more than the actual setting itself, and wished they had just made Strahd's homeworld the actual world for a full blown gothic setting. But instead they made it this patchwork of different disjointed lands that are just bundled together with little rhyme or reason.

Another thing I think would have been better was the idea of using the concept of the Demiplane of Dread in reverse, were rather than the demiplane dragging an entire land into itself, the "Dark Powers" arrive to land instead. Infecting it with dark energies and a perpetual shadow over the entire region that draws creatures of darkness to it, forcing champions from all over the land to travel to that region to confront those Dark Powers and bring an end to them.

There is a concept like this in ravenloft: conjunctions. Castle Ravenloft for example can just kind of show up in the mountains of your regular campaign world for a while during a conjunction. It isn't an expansive concept but no reason you couldn't' have a conjunction that spreads the way you are describing.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 02:44:45 PMDisney long ago Disneyfied stories like Cinderella,  Snow White, and the Little Mermaid. Their versions are generally well received. So don't be too surprised if others take the same route with something like Ravenloft because D&D isn't sacred and people are going to take it wherever they want.

True, but Disney's changes were explicitly admitted to be changing the target demographic to kids and families; they never made the public case that anybody who preferred the original Grimm versions was morally obliged to like or approve of the changed versions.

Neither D&D nor its settings are sacred, but there comes a point where once you've changed something enough it's just not the original product any more, and it's disingenuous to market it as if it is. I like both T-bone steak and chicken cordon bleu, but I object if I order one and somebody serves me the other on the grounds they know what's better for me than I do.

I never liked the idea of the Demiplane of Dread. Part of the terror/horror comes from the supernatural intruding into the mortal realm.

If I were to run a Ravenloft campaign, my first step would be to set it on a prime material world.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 12, 2021, 06:56:52 AM
I think one of the mistakes of the Ravenloft setting as a whole was trying to make it have a "continent" with fixed borders. If you're in a weird demiplane, then it would be far more practical to have each realm be in its own space, and travelling through the mists would not reliably take you from one nation to the next. It would then have been random or up to the GM where the PCs moved/fled to.

Try tried to Planescape it before Planescape.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 09:57:09 AMIIRC,  they used that in 2e to explain why the domain borders were left open. Even undead dread lords felt the need to have trade between their domain and others. Oh, and the trade allowed for spies (byond the Vistani) so they could each keep track of what the others learned about escaping the demiplane. It never really felt fitting to the mood of the setting to me.

Its that sort of Universal Monsters shared world thing like in the two "House of" movies.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2021, 02:44:45 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 12, 2021, 12:52:57 PM
Greetings!

In reading commentary about the new *Woke* Ravenloft 5E, it strikes me as strange and childish why anyone would want to run a Ravenloft game as some kind of Disneyfied PG setting. We can't have a game about Gothic Horror be actually scary, or disturbing, or unsettling in any way--everyone has to giggle and feel safe. That just seems to entirely contradict the entire genre and purpose of Gothic Horror. If these people want safe spaces, why not just stick to playing the My Little Pony RPG?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Disney long ago Disneyfied stories like Cinderella,  Snow White, and the Little Mermaid. Their versions are generally well received. So don't be too surprised if others take the same route with something like Ravenloft because D&D isn't sacred and people are going to take it wherever they want.

Its a really old idea too. Some people just like to take something scary and turn it on its head and run with it. Sometimes for straightup comedy like Mad Monster Party, sometimes its still scary at times but its weirdly funny too like Monster Squad (the movie). Or they become some sort of superhero team like Monster Squad (TV series) or Drac Pack. etc.

It fails when you are trying to present a horror setting but the censors demand you remove anything... well... horrible.

Thats one thing Tomb of Annihilation had in spades surprisingly. Really horrible things in the tomb both subtle and blunt.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 12, 2021, 05:23:11 PM
I always hated the way that the demiplane acts as a prison that locks the PCs in, effectively preventing you from just doing casual Ravenloft adventures with an existing party without potentially turning it into a perpetual Ravenloft campaign forever that will always have to be about Ravenloft and nothing else henceforth.

They really should have just bit the bullet and made it its own setting rather than trying to omni-verse it. But TSR was really into that idea back then and thus we ge Ravenloft, Planescape and Spelljammer all as onmi-versal settings.

I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft. Maybe they know something I don't but it looks like WOTC is setting itself up for a repeat of the big 4E split, in the way that it is shaking off the whole 'bring the fans back together' approach. One strange design choice is they seem to not be including any stats for domain lords (it is possible this information is incorrect or not complete, as I have only seen it in one place). But the reasoning seems to be to encourage people to not have it be about fighting them. Which is fine if you want that, and often I like it when campaigns don't involve fighting domain lords, but lots of campaigns were built around Domain lord hunting, and eventually someone gets fed up and swings a sword at one. They already had baked in protection from the demi plane anyways (most were hard to kill, most required special circumstances to be permanently killed, etc). Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft. Maybe they know something I don't but it looks like WOTC is setting itself up for a repeat of the big 4E split, in the way that it is shaking off the whole 'bring the fans back together' approach. One strange design choice is they seem to not be including any stats for domain lords (it is possible this information is incorrect or not complete, as I have only seen it in one place). But the reasoning seems to be to encourage people to not have it be about fighting them. Which is fine if you want that, and often I like it when campaigns don't involve fighting domain lords, but lots of campaigns were built around Domain lord hunting, and eventually someone gets fed up and swings a sword at one. They already had baked in protection from the demi plane anyways (most were hard to kill, most required special circumstances to be permanently killed, etc). Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse

Of course they're firing the fans - Jessica Price worked on this pile of shit.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft.

   According to folks on the EN World thread, real fans are the ones who embrace change for the sake of the Great New Audience, recognize the setting needed to be fixed with a chainsaw, and bow down in obedience to the Dragon of Many Colors and of None. ;)

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse

Safety tools? Ugh, must have missed that.

Quote from: Dropbear on May 13, 2021, 02:53:57 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse

Safety tools? Ugh, must have missed that.

Possible I am misinformed (been following previews and threads) but seems like safety tools are a key part of the book now

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 13, 2021, 02:20:58 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft.

   According to folks on the EN World thread, real fans are the ones who embrace change for the sake of the Great New Audience, recognize the setting needed to be fixed with a chainsaw, and bow down in obedience to the Dragon of Many Colors and of None. ;)

Lol. Following that thread too. Some  people are cool, but there are lots of posters who say they're old fans yet everything they say is about how bad 2E Ravenloft was. I have no problem with changes being made to update a setting, but my feeling is if they are making Ravenloft it should be because they think its good, and they want to bring back some of those old fans while bringing in new ones. But it both feels like they are insulting the old fans, and they are even using the politics of some of the changes as a shield (i.e. if you don't like the changes you are a bad person). Stuff like taking Egyptian influence out of Har'akir, just makes no sense (so what is it now exactly? Just some high fantasy desert?).

Old Ravenloft had things I would fix: too much railroading, too much meta plot, not enough islands of terror initially, etc. But I've always felt that black box was a masterpiece (at least for me). And I liked most of the 90s line (had some iffy adventures here or there, some good adventures with quirks, and some stuff that was a product of 90s gaming, but on the whole I had a tremendous time running it. The core concept worked. But they've literally changed the core concept. It isn't even gothic/classic horror anymore. Classic Ravenloft would occasionally have elements of other horror genres intrude, but it had to intrude through the filter of the Ravenloft classic horror aesthetic (which was pretty cool when they brought in say Golems as slasher bad guys in The Created; or introduced something like the living wall). But now I think everything is keyed to a different subgenre. And the focus now is keeping it D&D and having a high fantasy vibe (there were always fans who wanted Ravenloft to lean on the fantasy but I always liked the stauncher position of the black box on that front).

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 13, 2021, 01:36:16 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft. Maybe they know something I don't but it looks like WOTC is setting itself up for a repeat of the big 4E split, in the way that it is shaking off the whole 'bring the fans back together' approach. One strange design choice is they seem to not be including any stats for domain lords (it is possible this information is incorrect or not complete, as I have only seen it in one place). But the reasoning seems to be to encourage people to not have it be about fighting them. Which is fine if you want that, and often I like it when campaigns don't involve fighting domain lords, but lots of campaigns were built around Domain lord hunting, and eventually someone gets fed up and swings a sword at one. They already had baked in protection from the demi plane anyways (most were hard to kill, most required special circumstances to be permanently killed, etc). Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse

Of course they're firing the fans - Jessica Price worked on this pile of shit.

Remember hearing this. Do you know what her role was in the design?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 12, 2021, 11:08:52 PM
I never liked the idea of the Demiplane of Dread. Part of the terror/horror comes from the supernatural intruding into the mortal realm.

If I were to run a Ravenloft campaign, my first step would be to set it on a prime material world.

I would have the demiplane connected to the prime material via the old wolf infested forest, magic fogs, lamps and so on. Then have Dracula / Strahd come into the prime material to prey on the PC's, their family, friends, etc. rather than the other way around. If the PC's manage to fend him off, then they can choose to chase him back to his castle if they want to risk it to rid the world of his evil.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 03:18:59 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 13, 2021, 01:36:16 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft. Maybe they know something I don't but it looks like WOTC is setting itself up for a repeat of the big 4E split, in the way that it is shaking off the whole 'bring the fans back together' approach. One strange design choice is they seem to not be including any stats for domain lords (it is possible this information is incorrect or not complete, as I have only seen it in one place). But the reasoning seems to be to encourage people to not have it be about fighting them. Which is fine if you want that, and often I like it when campaigns don't involve fighting domain lords, but lots of campaigns were built around Domain lord hunting, and eventually someone gets fed up and swings a sword at one. They already had baked in protection from the demi plane anyways (most were hard to kill, most required special circumstances to be permanently killed, etc). Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse

Of course they're firing the fans - Jessica Price worked on this pile of shit.

Remember hearing this. Do you know what her role was in the design?

I think officially she was listed as a designer. In actuality I imagine her roll was more that of commissar and mascot.

saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

Never liked Ravenloft at all, having "nothing you do matters" baked in just makes the whole thing seem like empty wankery. Having your character's actions MATTER (for good or ill) in a game is a huge part of what makes RPGs fun and the Raveloft setting just seems to shit all over that. Also hard to take villains seriously if they're trapped in neat little hamster wheels and can't accomplish anything.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 13, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I started reading some of the articles on this more closely and looking more at the previews, this is definitely fire the old fans edition of Ravenloft. Maybe they know something I don't but it looks like WOTC is setting itself up for a repeat of the big 4E split, in the way that it is shaking off the whole 'bring the fans back together' approach. One strange design choice is they seem to not be including any stats for domain lords (it is possible this information is incorrect or not complete, as I have only seen it in one place). But the reasoning seems to be to encourage people to not have it be about fighting them. Which is fine if you want that, and often I like it when campaigns don't involve fighting domain lords, but lots of campaigns were built around Domain lord hunting, and eventually someone gets fed up and swings a sword at one. They already had baked in protection from the demi plane anyways (most were hard to kill, most required special circumstances to be permanently killed, etc). Between that, the safety tools, the hesitancy to engage horror, and the massive changes, this is just looking worse and worse

At the start of its run 5e really focused on bringing old fans back, they kinda had to after 4e. Now though? What percentage of 5e players give a flying fuck about earlier editions? Not that many. From a marketing perspective they seem to be doing just fine. For the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AM

At the start of its run 5e really focused on bringing old fans back, they kinda had to after 4e. Now though? What percentage of 5e players give a flying fuck about earlier editions? Not that many. From a marketing perspective they seem to be doing just fine. For the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

I have no idea what their numbers are. All I know is I didn't make the switch to 5E, and Ravenloft was the one thing that would have given me a reason to do so. But when I read the previews, followed the threads, it just seemed like they were sneering at those of us who liked it. I don't think it needs to be a choice between new and old fans. And I think this kind of divisive approach is probably harmful to their numbers in the long run if 4E is any indication (I am seeing more and more people not wanting anything to do with WOTC products because they feel like WOTC doesn't want them. These people buy RPGs too. Also we are hardcore fans. If I get excited about Ravenloft, I am going to run it a lot and talk about it a lot. Getting rid of the hardcore fans, in my opinion just doesn't make sense.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 14, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
I have no idea what their numbers are. All I know is I didn't make the switch to 5E, and Ravenloft was the one thing that would have given me a reason to do so. But when I read the previews, followed the threads, it just seemed like they were sneering at those of us who liked it. I don't think it needs to be a choice between new and old fans. And I think this kind of divisive approach is probably harmful to their numbers in the long run if 4E is any indication (I am seeing more and more people not wanting anything to do with WOTC products because they feel like WOTC doesn't want them. These people buy RPGs too. Also we are hardcore fans. If I get excited about Ravenloft, I am going to run it a lot and talk about it a lot. Getting rid of the hardcore fans, in my opinion just doesn't make sense.

   I think they're counting on new fans, old fans who like the changes for various reasons, and those who have sold their souls to WotC as a mouthpiece of the Death Cult and will thus approve anything and sneer at anyone who doesn't follow along. The EN World thread seems to have a solid mixture of the three. :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 10:20:21 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 14, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
I have no idea what their numbers are. All I know is I didn't make the switch to 5E, and Ravenloft was the one thing that would have given me a reason to do so. But when I read the previews, followed the threads, it just seemed like they were sneering at those of us who liked it. I don't think it needs to be a choice between new and old fans. And I think this kind of divisive approach is probably harmful to their numbers in the long run if 4E is any indication (I am seeing more and more people not wanting anything to do with WOTC products because they feel like WOTC doesn't want them. These people buy RPGs too. Also we are hardcore fans. If I get excited about Ravenloft, I am going to run it a lot and talk about it a lot. Getting rid of the hardcore fans, in my opinion just doesn't make sense.

   I think they're counting on new fans, old fans who like the changes for various reasons, and those who have sold their souls to WotC as a mouthpiece of the Death Cult and will thus approve anything and sneer at anyone who doesn't follow along. The EN World thread seems to have a solid mixture of the three. :)

Been involved in those threads (someone just accused me of secretly being Pundit--which is silly given how different our opinions on Ravenloft are).

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

god if it is I tip my hat.

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too. Not necessarily a change, since he was never described before this.

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg (https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg)

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AMThis just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

  A worthy cause, but there are two obstacles:

  1. This probably comes from the sexual saturation of Apostate Christendom, and since sci-fi fandom has always been more easily infected by such ideas, it's a symptom rather than the root of the problem.

  2. Given what we know about Gene Roddenberry as a man and a writer, do you really think he'd assent to having one of his characters 'tied down'?

what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 01:20:03 PMA worthy cause, but there are two obstacles:

  1. This probably comes from the sexual saturation of Apostate Christendom, and since sci-fi fandom has always been more easily infected by such ideas, it's a symptom rather than the root of the problem.

Granted. But in the '60s there was still some resistance to endorsing active infidelity, especially given that much of what makes Spock attractive to women as a character is his ironclad sense of honour and veracity. Plus, by contrasting the Kirk-Spock friendship against Spock's (ideally) happy relationship with his wife, the fans might be less prone to misunderstand one kind of closeness for another, and stifling that habit at the source would likely have significant ripple effects.

Quote2. Given what we know about Gene Roddenberry as a man and a writer, do you really think he'd assent to having one of his characters 'tied down'?

I didn't intend to give him an opportunity for assent. If blackmail proved unfruitful (and the man was enough of a philanderer that seems unlikely), I was fully OK with using mob-style physical coercion. ;D 8) Once the show had been on the air for at least a year, I could just pop back to my now-hopefully-much-improved present day.

Of course, this sort of thing is probably why time travel to the past is not just practically but philosophically impossible. But a man can dream, can't he?  :-[

Quote from: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 01:26:22 PM
what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

   Contemporary Western civilization.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 01:41:18 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 01:26:22 PM
what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

   Contemporary Western civilization.

Enlightenment Western Civilization.

Quote from: RandyB on May 14, 2021, 01:43:05 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 01:41:18 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 14, 2021, 01:26:22 PM
what's "Apostate Christendom" mean in this context

   Contemporary Western civilization.

Enlightenment Western Civilization.

Huh, okay. Do we need to go back to Boethius?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 12:47:32 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too.

He might be black, gay, and disabled. But he's still a man. Bigots.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual. For example, Sherlock Holmes is one of the most prominent sources of early fan fiction early on - and stories often had Irene Adler as a romantic interest for him, even though the Doyle story was clear that he had only non-romantic admiration for her. Jane Austen also inspired a lot of fan fiction, and those often featured different romantic pairings than in the canonical novels.

I would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society, from figures like Alfred Kinsey starting in the 1950s. I think you're right that Kirk/Spock was a key to that breaking through to science fiction fandom - but as long as homosexuality became accepted, it was eventually going to happen regardless of Star Trek.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual. For example, Sherlock Holmes is one of the most prominent sources of early fan fiction early on - and stories often had Irene Adler as a romantic interest for him, even though the Doyle story was clear that he had only non-romantic admiration for her. Jane Austen also inspired a lot of fan fiction, and those often featured different romantic pairings than in the canonical novels.

I would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society, from figures like Alfred Kinsey starting in the 1950s. I think you're right that Kirk/Spock was a key to that breaking through to science fiction fandom - but as long as homosexuality became accepted, it was eventually going to happen regardless of Star Trek.

I don't think there is any issue with making a character in Ravenloft gay. Like I said elsewhere, there is lots of queer cinema in classic horror, and Ravenloft seemed to have characters who were strongly suggested to be gay. At some point, someone made Hazlik gay I believe. There are other characters where that would make sense. With Alanik Ray, I could see there maybe being a Xena and Gabriel thing people read into. The issue I think is more the way they are doing this stuff: it feels like they are checking off all the boxes in terms of this, interim of flipping tropes, etc. But more than that, the art for Alanik Ray looks like Harry Potter to me. Homosexuality certainly fits being a part of Ravenloft. It's more the shift in aesthetics, the way it seems the language is actually afraid of horror, and the way they are doing it.

For example one massive change is they are changing Ravenloft into a hybrid of high fantasy and multi-genre horror. Nothing wrong with that kind of setting but the Ravenloft line was very explicitly gothic/classic horror. The black box was very clear about getting to classic horror roots and eschewing more modern horror conventions. I love all kinds of horror, but what they are doing with the setting now isn't true to the flavor of the line (and there is something to be said for a focused, classic horror setting IMO)

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 14, 2021, 03:09:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual. For example, Sherlock Holmes is one of the most prominent sources of early fan fiction early on - and stories often had Irene Adler as a romantic interest for him, even though the Doyle story was clear that he had only non-romantic admiration for her. Jane Austen also inspired a lot of fan fiction, and those often featured different romantic pairings than in the canonical novels.

I would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society, from figures like Alfred Kinsey starting in the 1950s. I think you're right that Kirk/Spock was a key to that breaking through to science fiction fandom - but as long as homosexuality became accepted, it was eventually going to happen regardless of Star Trek.

I don't think there is any issue with making a character in Ravenloft gay. Like I said elsewhere, there is lots of queer cinema in classic horror, and Ravenloft seemed to have characters who were strongly suggested to be gay. At some point, someone made Hazlik gay I believe. There are other characters where that would make sense. With Alanik Ray, I could see there maybe being a Xena and Gabriel thing people read into. The issue I think is more the way they are doing this stuff: it feels like they are checking off all the boxes in terms of this, interim of flipping tropes, etc. But more than that, the art for Alanik Ray looks like Harry Potter to me. Homosexuality certainly fits being a part of Ravenloft. It's more the shift in aesthetics, the way it seems the language is actually afraid of horror, and the way they are doing it.

For example one massive change is they are changing Ravenloft into a hybrid of high fantasy and multi-genre horror. Nothing wrong with that kind of setting but the Ravenloft line was very explicitly gothic/classic horror. The black box was very clear about getting to classic horror roots and eschewing more modern horror conventions. I love all kinds of horror, but what they are doing with the setting now isn't true to the flavor of the line (and there is something to be said for a focused, classic horror setting IMO)

Brendan - I was replying to Stephen Tannhauser's question now bolded above, not about the Ravenloft discussion in general. I haven't read Van Richten's guide yet, and am not making any commentary about it either way.

EDITED TO ADD: I really loved the original I6 module and the sequel module, but I didn't like the boxed set that made it into a meta-setting. There was some material to mine, but I thought the whole structure of the demi-planes was strangely meta. When I ran my own gothic horror campaign, I ran it as gothic horror elements in a complete world, rather than a pocket demi-plane. At this point, I haven't even read a complete review of Van Richten's guide.

All you need to know about this books is that polygon likes it:

Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is the biggest, best D&D book of this generation
A thrilling book of horror adventures will bring people together again
https://www.polygon.com/22430494/dungeons-dragons-van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-review

This review is just effuse with praise:
"Somehow project lead Wesley Schneider also managed to cram in a multitude of new options for character creation, an assortment of clever allies, 32 vicious new monsters, and all the gentle guidance your group needs to run a spine-tingling campaign of your own devising safely at the table."

With an endorsement like that how could any Old-School Ravenloft fan not buy this book!

What a fucking train wreck. ROTFL!!

The have certainly confirmed the new direction they are taking D&D after candlekeep...

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

And then everyone on the train applauded.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PMI think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual.

Not by most of the women actually in them, or guys would never have invented the term "friend zone". Remember that the vast majority of M/M explicit fanfic is generated by straight female authors.

QuoteI would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society....

I'd suggest the causality goes the other way, actually, or at least that there's a significant feedback cycle element to it: a major part of what promotes tolerance and acceptance is the public celebration of same-sex emotional intimacy as "naturally" potentially sexual, a perception that -- to be honest -- strikes me as far more likely to come from a majority-female audience than a majority-male one. Especially an audience saturated more in visual live-action imagery based on casting the best-looking actors it can -- Holmes and Watson have had a vast fanbase from their earliest days, but it's no coincidence that the Ravenloft expies Ray and Sedgwick only got sexualized as a couple after there had been a decade's worth of fanfic written about the Cumberbatch/Freeman versions of the canon originals.

On a broader basis, this seems to be the whole trouble with the Ravenloft setting reinvention: the designers seem to be trying to have their cake and eat it too by retaining everything old fans liked while simultaneously reinventing it to appeal to a desired new fanbase, and I am skeptical of their ability to pull this off. Sometimes trying to please everybody really does result in pleasing nobody.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 03:43:16 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PMI think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual.

Not by most of the women actually in them, or guys would never have invented the term "friend zone". Remember that the vast majority of M/M explicit fanfic is generated by straight female authors.

My statement was in the context of how *fans* read the relationships of *fictional* characters. That is, if a man and a woman are close friends in a fictional work, then fans would generally interpret that as *potentially* sexual. So, for example, even though Holmes and Adler are purely platonic rivals in the canonical fiction - fans often interpreted that in a romantic or sexual way. That's not just male fans - female fans as well. I don't see how friend zones or female authors disagrees with this.

I'm trying to think of male/female friendships in older fiction that weren't considered potentially romantic. Can you think of any?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 03:43:16 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PMI would say that reading emotional same-sex relationships as potentially sexual ones comes pretty directly from tolerance/acceptance of homosexual relationships in society....

I'd suggest the causality goes the other way, actually, or at least that there's a significant feedback cycle element to it: a major part of what promotes tolerance and acceptance is the public celebration of same-sex emotional intimacy as "naturally" potentially sexual, a perception that -- to be honest -- strikes me as far more likely to come from a majority-female audience than a majority-male one. Especially an audience saturated more in visual live-action imagery based on casting the best-looking actors it can -- Holmes and Watson have had a vast fanbase from their earliest days, but it's no coincidence that the Ravenloft expies Ray and Sedgwick only got sexualized as a couple after there had been a decade's worth of fanfic written about the Cumberbatch/Freeman versions of the canon originals.

On a broader basis, this seems to be the whole trouble with the Ravenloft setting reinvention: the designers seem to be trying to have their cake and eat it too by retaining everything old fans liked while simultaneously reinventing it to appeal to a desired new fanbase, and I am skeptical of their ability to pull this off. Sometimes trying to please everybody really does result in pleasing nobody.

I think there's definitely a feedback loop between mainstream portrayal of gay characters (like Ellen Degeneres, Queer as Folk, The L Word, etc.) and societal acceptance of homosexuality. However, I'm skeptical that there's a feedback loop from stuff like Star Trek. Acceptance of homosexuality drives interpreting Kirk and Spock as gay, but it's not clear that just by having Kirk and Spock be close friends, Star Trek created greater acceptance of homosexuality.

I don't have an opinion on Van Richten's yet. But as far as Holmes/Watson in general, there has been a major change in acceptance of homosexuality over the past two decades in general, and I think that has had more of an effect than fan fiction.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 12:47:32 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too. Not necessarily a change, since he was never described before this.

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg (https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg)

From this picture, you'd think they remade Ravenloft into a Comedy Setting, it's that pathetic.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AMThis just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

When hollywood became governed by soulless degenerates who had no concept of the idea or possibility of true genuine friendship or fraternity.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 04:38:24 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 03:43:16 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2021, 02:36:35 PMI think it's always been true that close male/female emotional relationships are interpreted as potentially sexual.

Not by most of the women actually in them, or guys would never have invented the term "friend zone". Remember that the vast majority of M/M explicit fanfic is generated by straight female authors.

My statement was in the context of how *fans* read the relationships of *fictional* characters. That is, if a man and a woman are close friends in a fictional work, then fans would generally interpret that as *potentially* sexual. So, for example, even though Holmes and Adler are purely platonic rivals in the canonical fiction - fans often interpreted that in a romantic or sexual way. That's not just male fans - female fans as well. I don't see how friend zones or female authors disagrees with this.

I'm trying to think of male/female friendships in older fiction that weren't considered potentially romantic. Can you think of any?

Do you understand why this would be a totally different subject from the modern-day suggestion that any male/male friendship is not just potentially but almost required to be romantic?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PMRather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I feel genuine pity for anyone who reads a close male friendship as sexual.  It suggests that person's never had a true friend and doesn't understand that love means a lot more than sex.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 14, 2021, 10:12:46 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 12:47:32 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM
This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

They made Arthur Sedgwick black, too. Not necessarily a change, since he was never described before this.

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg (https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/8/602/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft.jpg)

From this picture, you'd think they remade Ravenloft into a Comedy Setting, it's that pathetic.

The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 15, 2021, 06:39:55 AM
The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.

Way too bright. Ravenloft is dark. Shadowy.

And what the fuck is with the Christmas shit? It's RAVENLOFT.

Quote from: Thornhammer on May 15, 2021, 01:09:44 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 15, 2021, 06:39:55 AM
The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.

That is probably on purpose. To the woke Christmas is horror!!!
Way too bright. Ravenloft is dark. Shadowy.

And what the fuck is with the Christmas shit? It's RAVENLOFT.

Quote from: Thornhammer on May 15, 2021, 01:09:44 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 15, 2021, 06:39:55 AM
The tone of many of these images feels very off to me. That one in particular reminds me of Harry Potter. But a lot of the other images, the characters look like they are 'shining' too much (like it is a fun romp), rather than a dread adventure. The old Fabian Art was very simple and stylized, and might even look cartoony to modern gamers, but it got the vibe right, and it if there was any levity, it was more dark humor.

Way too bright. Ravenloft is dark. Shadowy.

And what the fuck is with the Christmas shit? It's RAVENLOFT.

Christmas can be quite horrific.

have they not seen holiday-themed slashers here or what, just run a Black Yule game or something with the krampus or whatever. not like we don't have fiction about evil dolls or toys without Christmas either.

the toys ain't scary but they're the least self-parodic parts of the piece.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 12, 2021, 11:08:52 PM
I never liked the idea of the Demiplane of Dread. Part of the terror/horror comes from the supernatural intruding into the mortal realm.

If I were to run a Ravenloft campaign, my first step would be to set it on a prime material world.

While I was a fan of ravenloft masque of the red death/gothic earth was the real treasure for me. I always tended to replace strahd with dracula anyway. Only thing holding gothic earth back to me was trying to shoehorn 2e dnd magic system into it, they should have scrapped it and made a whole new thematically appropriate magic system for it in terms of power rather than butchering the existing system to power it down and fit it in a world of electricity, revolvers, and horror derived from the notion that these things, monsters, vampires etc, should not exist. It was my favorite ravenloft product but at the same time it left me sort of edging and unfulfilled yet motivated to seek fulfillment; it did not know wether it wanted to be call of cthulhu or gunsmoke, at my table at least.

Yes. Masque in many ways outshines Ravenloft itself and yet is relatively obscure. Great setting and good to see TSR out gothicing White Wolf.
As for the magic system. It worked in how they presented it and I rather like the extreme risk involved in even trying to use magic.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on May 14, 2021, 10:38:27 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PMRather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

I feel genuine pity for anyone who reads a close male friendship as sexual.  It suggests that person's never had a true friend and doesn't understand that love means a lot more than sex.

Sure. Sometimes it's funny when bad writing causes homosocial friendships and cousins to have chemistry that wasn't intended.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 14, 2021, 01:11:51 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AMThis just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

Roddenberry himself personally quashed this nonsense when he wrote the novelization to star trek the motion picture.  In the preface written by admiral kirk, he refuted these claims completely and pointed out that even he he were so inclined he would not be foolish enough to pick a partner who only became sexually aroused once every 7 years.

Oh, and marxism was an inevitable result of the horrific conditions the russian population was suffering under the czars. If you really wanted to prevent the marxist revolution which would have happened under a different name if you neutralized marx, you need to go back in time and adduct the czar, then show him what was going to happen to him and his family, including sadly poor Anastasia despite a lot of wishful thinking, and tell him to make real serious reforms in how the people were treated. Nothing else would have stopped a populist revolt in russia, period.

Here, check out this two part video, it's very concise, informative and entertaining.   https://youtu.be/Cqbleas1mmo

The Russian revolution was in many ways similar to the french revolution, which oversimplified covers too. https://youtu.be/8qRZcXIODNU

Rightards who think that they could prevent 'socialist' revolutions buy killing the historical leaders can never accept that such ideas like what they call socialism and revolutions were made inevitable by the abuse heaped on the majority by an aristocratic type government.

Greetings!

Ahh. And LEFTTARDS that suck the ass of Socialism and Marxist "utopia" end up empowering a brutal, tyrannical regime where 95% of the population are crushed in misery and poverty and terror, ruled over by a fat, smug, evil elite that fancies themselves the "true leaders of society." Such "utopian" nightmares have been responsible for the greatest slaughter and tyranny, far more evil and wicked than any other kind of government in human history.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

These are political derailments of this thread. The Thing and Shark, this is your only warnings.

I guess you missed Anselyn's post where he dragged politics into this. here:

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

Rather than go back to 1836 and arrange, somehow, for Karl Marx not to get expelled from the University of Bonn (thus preventing him from attending the University of Berlin where he would get involved with Feuerbach and the Young Hegelians, which led directly to the spawning of Marxism which has a direct causal root of all the atrocities of the 20th century), I will go back in time to 1963, when Star Trek is being developed, and persuade Gene Roddenberry to give Mr. Spock a wife as a key running character in the show. This will hopefully nip in the bud the entire phenomenon of K/S fanfic, from which I believe all this kind of sexual-reinvention character shenanigans first developed. (Seriously, when did genre fandom become convinced that any kind of close emotional relationship automatically read as a potentially sexual one?)

You need to add him to your warning.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
These are political derailments of this thread. The Thing and Shark, this is your only warnings.

Greetings!

Pundit, my sincere apologies.

It sounds like WOTC has totally ruined Ravenloft. So sad. The campaign setting, while never my favorite, had some excellent attributes, and certainly some good potential for a 5E version.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I echo the praise of Gothic Earth. I picked up the DM's Guild 5e Gothic Earth book, Masque of the Red Death Player's Guide. If you or your group likes or prefers 5e, this is a good addition to your library.

Quote from: The Thing on May 16, 2021, 06:08:12 PM

Oh, and marxism was an inevitable result of the horrific conditions the russian population was suffering under the czars. If you really wanted to prevent the marxist revolution which would have happened under a different name if you neutralized marx, you need to go back in time and adduct the czar, then show him what was going to happen to him and his family, including sadly poor Anastasia despite a lot of wishful thinking, and tell him to make real serious reforms in how the people were treated. Nothing else would have stopped a populist revolt in russia, period.

The Bolsheviks didn't overthrow Tsar Nicholas, they overthrew the Provisional Government, who took power in the February Revolution, and were promoting democratic reforms. It was the Provisional Government who overthrew the Tsar and took central power, though the socialists held the support of the lower classes, and ruled much of the countryside through the Soviets. But the socialists weren't Bolsheviks; they believed that Russia wasn't ready for socialism, and were also promoting things like more rights and freedoms. The only reason the Soviet Union emerged was because an extremist group (the Bolsheviks) took advantage of the fractures between the different sides, and violently seized power. If you want to stop all that, you just need to let the other factions know the Bolsheviks are backstabbing bastards. Or just kill Lenin while he's passing through Germany; they probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere without their leader.

I only played a few times in Ravenloft, during the 3e era. We had fun trying to identify which trope or Hammer movie a plot or NPC came from.  I think I got killed by a Banshee.

My first RL purchase was Curse of Strahd because I finally wanted to know what the fuss was about, and we played the Intro scenario which ended in a TPK when the players activated the Animated Armour dude. I could make it work, but only by enforcing the Hammer Horror vibe, not diluting it, and as a one-off short campaign with characters that have a stake in the setting; not tourists.

This new book? Nah, I'll vote with my wallet on this one, and go buy the new Soulblight Gravelords instead.

Quote from: The Thing on May 16, 2021, 09:39:01 PM
I guess you missed Anselyn's post where he dragged politics into this. here:

All right, I have officially changed my position on what I will do if I get one use of a time travel machine to change history.

You need to add him to your warning.

That was me, not Anselyn, but I will plead guilty to deserving the warning anyways.

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2021, 10:33:50 PMThe campaign setting, while never my favorite, had some excellent attributes, and certainly some good potential for a 5E version.

It might have potential but gothic horror is a genre that hasn't been culturally relevant in decades. I couldn't think of a worse genre to try and attract new, and therefore younger, players.

OTOH, the biggest thing in fantasy over that last couple years has been Demon Slayer which is pretty much just a take on vampire slaying. And it's even set in the same sort of pre-industrial tech level of the original Dracula and Frankenstein. A Vampire Hunter take on Ravenloft, with more of a focus on action, would have been a better sell if, as they claim, attracting new players was the goal. Of course, we all know that "inclusiveness" and "representation" have nothing to do with attracting a new audience.

Quote from: RandyB on May 16, 2021, 10:38:06 PM
I echo the praise of Gothic Earth. I picked up the DM's Guild 5e Gothic Earth book, Masque of the Red Death Player's Guide. If you or your group likes or prefers 5e, this is a good addition to your library.

Gothic Earth was very interesting. I ran it quite a few times. However it was harder to find regular players for (I mostly managed it as short campaigns or one shots). I also ran it as a sitcom once which worked surprisingly well. I think I liked the Masque of the Red Death boxed set a lot better than the supplementary material (I found the supplement book on Transylvania informative but incredibly, incredibly dry). The boxed set though really sparked my imagination and had some cool content. I remember really liking the firearm rules for some reason.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 17, 2021, 11:45:58 AMOTOH, the biggest thing in fantasy over that last couple years has been Demon Slayer which is pretty much just a take on vampire slaying. And it's even set in the same sort of pre-industrial tech level of the original Dracula and Frankenstein.

If this really is the biggest thing in fantasy in recent years, I must be even more out of touch than I thought. Is this a novel series? Comics? Anime? Manga? TV series from outside North America?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 17, 2021, 02:55:38 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 17, 2021, 11:45:58 AMOTOH, the biggest thing in fantasy over that last couple years has been Demon Slayer which is pretty much just a take on vampire slaying. And it's even set in the same sort of pre-industrial tech level of the original Dracula and Frankenstein.

If this really is the biggest thing in fantasy in recent years, I must be even more out of touch than I thought. Is this a novel series? Comics? Anime? Manga? TV series from outside North America?

I assume he means https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9335498/ (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9335498/) and if so I weep for the sorry state of fantasy in modern times.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 17, 2021, 02:55:38 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 17, 2021, 11:45:58 AMOTOH, the biggest thing in fantasy over that last couple years has been Demon Slayer which is pretty much just a take on vampire slaying. And it's even set in the same sort of pre-industrial tech level of the original Dracula and Frankenstein.

If this really is the biggest thing in fantasy in recent years, I must be even more out of touch than I thought. Is this a novel series? Comics? Anime? Manga? TV series from outside North America?

it's weebery, which kills the OSR man

Quote from: Pat on May 16, 2021, 11:15:37 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 16, 2021, 06:08:12 PM

Oh, and marxism was an inevitable result of the horrific conditions the russian population was suffering under the czars. If you really wanted to prevent the marxist revolution which would have happened under a different name if you neutralized marx, you need to go back in time and adduct the czar, then show him what was going to happen to him and his family, including sadly poor Anastasia despite a lot of wishful thinking, and tell him to make real serious reforms in how the people were treated. Nothing else would have stopped a populist revolt in russia, period.

The Bolsheviks didn't overthrow Tsar Nicholas, they overthrew the Provisional Government, who took power in the February Revolution, and were promoting democratic reforms. It was the Provisional Government who overthrew the Tsar and took central power, though the socialists held the support of the lower classes, and ruled much of the countryside through the Soviets. But the socialists weren't Bolsheviks; they believed that Russia wasn't ready for socialism, and were also promoting things like more rights and freedoms. The only reason the Soviet Union emerged was because an extremist group (the Bolsheviks) took advantage of the fractures between the different sides, and violently seized power. If you want to stop all that, you just need to let the other factions know the Bolsheviks are backstabbing bastards. Or just kill Lenin while he's passing through Germany; they probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere without their leader.

Pat, I already gave a warning to two posters here for political posts. 

I NOW GIVE YOU AND EVERYONE A WARNING. FROM HERE ON, ANY OFF TOPIC POLITICAL POST ON THIS THREAD WILL BE MET WITH A PERMANENT BAN.

Pathfinder has a modules called "rule of fear" that might be a viable alternative for people who see the current ravenloft as too PC now.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2021, 05:50:02 PM

Pat, I already gave a warning to two posters here for political posts. 

I NOW GIVE YOU AND EVERYONE A WARNING. FROM HERE ON, ANY OFF TOPIC POLITICAL POST ON THIS THREAD WILL BE MET WITH A PERMANENT BAN.

That's fine, it's your forum. And I wouldn't have posted it if I saw your post before I hit submit. But I didn't bother to delete it, because I thought the political prohibition was about contemporary/culture war stuff. That's what your sticky thread seems to imply, with all the talk about political/cultural conflicts and the list of examples. There was none of that in my post. So it might be worth clarifying a bit.

Quote from: Pat on May 17, 2021, 07:31:43 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2021, 05:50:02 PM

Pat, I already gave a warning to two posters here for political posts. 

I NOW GIVE YOU AND EVERYONE A WARNING. FROM HERE ON, ANY OFF TOPIC POLITICAL POST ON THIS THREAD WILL BE MET WITH A PERMANENT BAN.

That's fine, it's your forum. And I wouldn't have posted it if I saw your post before I hit submit. But I didn't bother to delete it, because I thought the political prohibition was about contemporary/culture war stuff. That's what your sticky thread seems to imply, with all the talk about political/cultural conflicts and the list of examples. There was none of that in my post. So it might be worth clarifying a bit.

Off-topic posting in any thread, political or not, is not allowed. So talking about history could of course be allowed in a thread that was about a game or setting in a certain historical period (like talking about the War of the Roses in a thread about Dark Albion), but talking about history trivia, or baseball, or fast food restaurants, or any other topic in a gaming thread unrelated to that topic is not allowed.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 18, 2021, 12:34:17 AM

Quote from: Pat on May 17, 2021, 07:31:43 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2021, 05:50:02 PM

Pat, I already gave a warning to two posters here for political posts. 

I NOW GIVE YOU AND EVERYONE A WARNING. FROM HERE ON, ANY OFF TOPIC POLITICAL POST ON THIS THREAD WILL BE MET WITH A PERMANENT BAN.

That's fine, it's your forum. And I wouldn't have posted it if I saw your post before I hit submit. But I didn't bother to delete it, because I thought the political prohibition was about contemporary/culture war stuff. That's what your sticky thread seems to imply, with all the talk about political/cultural conflicts and the list of examples. There was none of that in my post. So it might be worth clarifying a bit.

Off-topic posting in any thread, political or not, is not allowed. So talking about history could of course be allowed in a thread that was about a game or setting in a certain historical period (like talking about the War of the Roses in a thread about Dark Albion), but talking about history trivia, or baseball, or fast food restaurants, or any other topic in a gaming thread unrelated to that topic is not allowed.

Then you might want to update the 2 sticky threads and the sticky notice. They only talk about politics and culture wars, not anything off topic.

Wow, this new Ravenloft sounds really dumb.  Almost everything I'm hearing about 5e- the setting anyway- sounds terrible.  I played it for a minute, the rules seemed okay enough.  Nothing special. 

I always used to like this setting, but it seems to have been twisted into something unrecognizable.

Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Based on actual sales to customers, or based on sales to distributors/stores?

Didn't NuRavenloft change the vistani so that their arrival was celebrated by giorgio communities? Even if the vistani were changed so that they were good guys or whatever, why would would that suddenly make superstitious medieval peasants less racist towards them? It feels rather, idk, offensive to whitewash the racism historically experienced by romani communities, even in a fantasy context. A key part of the reason why romani were nomadic in the first place was because they were persecuted. (I know the vistani were cursed, but that's not an improvement or a decent excuse.)

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Based on actual sales to customers, or based on sales to distributors/stores?

Outrage marketing at its best.

They got people to complain and that attracts others in swarms to buy the book to see if its as bad as they claim. And quite often, SUCKER!!!!! its not as bad because they deliberately hyped things that werent all that prominent just to get free advertising. AND it makes anyone complaining look like perfect examples of "toxic" intolerant fans. Win Win Win for WOkeTC

Scalpers are also probably again buying it in droves looking to make a profit which is over-inflating  the numbers. I knew one person who pre-ordered 10 copies of Tasha so they could sell it at 2x the price.

The book looks... horrific. I mean, the art can't evoke fear in a 10 yo. The safe-space horror idea invalidates the horror. The setting changes invalidate the gothic-ness, as Pundit said. The gender/skin color swap doesn't really matter, just looks gratuitous.

This is basically Van Richten's Guide to Plants vs Zombies.

Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 10:36:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Based on actual sales to customers, or based on sales to distributors/stores?

Outrage marketing at its best.

They got people to complain and that attracts others in swarms to buy the book to see if its as bad as they claim. And quite often, SUCKER!!!!! its not as bad because they deliberately hyped things that werent all that prominent just to get free advertising. AND it makes anyone complaining look like perfect examples of "toxic" intolerant fans. Win Win Win for WOkeTC

Scalpers are also probably again buying it in droves looking to make a profit which is over-inflating  the numbers. I knew one person who pre-ordered 10 copies of Tasha so they could sell it at 2x the price.

The reason I ask is that this how Marvel and DC have been able to artificially sustain themselves, by selling to comic book distributors and then shrugging when their crappy socjus-laden comics won't sell through those stores.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 07:57:20 AM
The reason I ask is that this how Marvel and DC have been able to artificially sustain themselves, by selling to comic book distributors and then shrugging when their crappy socjus-laden comics won't sell through those stores.

Marvel was, and likely still is, forcing distributors to buy X copies of a book or they get nothing. And they cant return them.

The sales of Tasha seemed to be one part outrage marketing, and one part actual use as the book had not only a new class, but new class paths, and the full companion/sidekick system as well. Scalpers bought it in droves and then tried to resell it at inflated prices.

I think we have a new contender for the subject line ...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E10qDBiXIAE7HZQ?format=jpg&name=medium)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 20, 2021, 10:01:54 AM
I think we have a new contender for the subject line ...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E10qDBiXIAE7HZQ?format=jpg&name=medium)

I don't mind advise suggesting breathing live into old ideas or old character types, but the contempt for 'outdated tropes' just really bothers me about the marketing roll out and the language I am seeing from the designers. There is always room to experiment and be more creative, but old tropes can work wonderfully as well (and often do because they are tried and true). This is true in both horror and in other genres. Wuxia is a great example of this. Often characters are interesting because the author, like Jin Yong for example, is trying to make a character he feels he has never seen before, and many of his characters pop off the page. But there are also classic tropes in the genre that just work well and thrill me every time I see them (I love the old grannies in martial arts films, they are almost always my favorite characters, and while they often have some eccentricity unique to a particular instance of the trope, the trope is pretty old and pretty widely used. Doesn't make it less interesting. With horror classic tropes work. Horror has an element of surprise that is important, so you have to factor that in. but Ravenloft was conceived as a love letter to classic horror, and the black box was all about the value of going back to old techniques, old tropes, etc. And I love all kinds of horror, but this contempt is what really bothers me about the stuff that has been coming out. Perhaps despite that it is genius and good (Black Box had a strong point of view, one I didn't always agree with, but was stellar in my view: so this doesn't make it impossible for the new stuff to be great, but it makes me not want to buy it sounds like they are crapping on the core concept of what made Ravenloft in the first place)

I feel like the guy who did Masque of the Red Death for 5E did a better job than Wizards themselves with gothic horror material. I'm still more partial to the 2E content, but the Players Guide for MotRD5E is quality content as opposed to Van Richten's Nu-Ravenloft Trashfire.

Sorry, mobile and guess I hit Quote instead of Modify...

Woke Manifesto: The RPG.

That last bullet point regarding cliches reads like a cryptic plea for a return to 4th Edition D&D where fighters played the same as wizards. I thought we'd keep 5E around for a while longer, but it sure looks like 6E is on its way, and it's likely going to suck big time. "Don't worry guys, sure 6E looks a lot like 4E, but this time we'll do it right!"

Quote from: wmarshal on May 20, 2021, 04:28:05 PM
That last bullet point regarding cliches reads like a cryptic plea for a return to 4th Edition D&D where fighters played the same as wizards. I thought we'd keep 5E around for a while longer, but it sure looks like 6E is on its way, and it's likely going to suck big time. "Don't worry guys, sure 6E looks a lot like 4E, but this time we'll do it right!"

   I think that's a defense of the removal of racial penalties and a pushback against any appeals to historical flavor, genre, etc. that might be opposed to 'proper' diversity & inclusivity. I expect 6E is on the way, but it's going to be 5E+Tasha's with more equality and diabolism.

Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 10:36:11 PMScalpers are also probably again buying it in droves looking to make a profit which is over-inflating  the numbers. I knew one person who pre-ordered 10 copies of Tasha so they could sell it at 2x the price.

The book is widely available at a discount so I doubt anyone will be making money scalping this book. Amazon is discounting it by 40% which is $5 to $10 cheaper than other gaming discounters like CoolStuff. That explains why Amazon got the lion's share of the book's sales leading to it reaching the #4 bestseller spot (it's already down to #6 now though)

"Don't use cliche accents."

Good heavens, no.

It is extremely important that no fun be had. Roleplaying games should be a joyless, somber experience.

"Magical settings bear no resemblance to real-world history."

Waaaaait wait wait wait just a damn second...

Quote from: Thornhammer on May 20, 2021, 05:40:05 PM
"Don't use cliche accents."

Good heavens, no.

It is extremely important that no fun be had. Roleplaying games should be a joyless, somber experience.

This gets at the heart of the problem for me. There is a joylessness to all this that is incredibly repressive.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 20, 2021, 10:01:54 AM
I think we have a new contender for the subject line ...

You know what really makes the top of my head smack into the ceiling on a gush of superheated steam?  The end of the second sentence, which is partially covered but not quite enough that it can't be made out: "If your favourite horror story features outdated tropes, your fondness doesn't redeem {them}."

There ya have it, ladies an' germs: a trope that somebody finds offensive or outdated isn't just a possible occasion of tactlessness within the group, it's an actual sin requiring redemption. Which, it occurs to me, I think your average devout Christian might have reason to object to as a piece of cultural appropriation, given that the whole concept of redemption-for-sin is kinda our gag to begin with, and the notion of applying it to describe what people find insulting (and mostly vicariously rather than personally, to boot) in a game is really kinda offensive, to me at least.

When did BadWrongFun become orthodoxy again?

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 20, 2021, 06:35:40 PM
There ya have it, ladies an' germs: a trope that somebody finds offensive or outdated isn't just a possible occasion of tactlessness within the group, it's an actual sin requiring redemption. Which, it occurs to me, I think your average devout Christian might have reason to object to as a piece of cultural appropriation, given that the whole concept of redemption-for-sin is kinda our gag to begin with,

   They've been appropriating our culture and erasing us for over twenty years, since they made a big deal over bringing devils back on one hand and removing the few token Christians TSR included on the other.  ;D

Quote
When did BadWrongFun become orthodoxy again?

   The seeds have been planted long ago, are now sprouting, and will probably come to fruition with the inevitable 6E.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on May 20, 2021, 04:50:06 PMThe book is widely available at a discount so I doubt anyone will be making money scalping this book. Amazon is discounting it by 40% which is $5 to $10 cheaper than other gaming discounters like CoolStuff. That explains why Amazon got the lion's share of the book's sales leading to it reaching the #4 bestseller spot (it's already down to #6 now though)

They wait for the discount to end and then try to cash in. Thats what happened with Tasha. I saw prices a day after the discount ended leaping as high as 3 times the price. I suspect some found out the hard way that this doesnt really work and at best broke even. Hopefully enough lost money that we will see an end to this. But I know better. Its not.

Van Richten's guide came in to my FLGS yesterday.  I'm a big Ravenloft fan, have been since I6 in my youth.  I don't have a complete collection but I buy most Ravenloft things because I love gothic horror and the genre.

I sat this one out. 

The previews and articles I'd read had increasingly turned my stomach, and Pundit's video was the nail in the coffin for me.  "Don't buy games from people who despise you" makes too damn much sense.

Maybe someday Ravenloft will rise from the proverbial grave for me, but for now, I'll just adopt older materials to 5e rules if I want to run it.

Quote from: Brigman on May 21, 2021, 10:48:11 AM
Van Richten's guide came in to my FLGS yesterday.  I'm a big Ravenloft fan, have been since I6 in my youth.  I don't have a complete collection but I buy most Ravenloft things because I love gothic horror and the genre.

I sat this one out. 

The previews and articles I'd read had increasingly turned my stomach, and Pundit's video was the nail in the coffin for me.  "Don't buy games from people who despise you" makes too damn much sense.

Maybe someday Ravenloft will rise from the proverbial grave for me, but for now, I'll just adopt older materials to 5e rules if I want to run it.

Greetings!

Excellent point, Brigman! As I have mentioned earlier, Ravenloft was never a campaign that was my favourite, as I have run my own World of Thandor for many years just fine. However, OG Ravenloft did have many excellent and worthwhile features and attributes--which is of course what inspired me to spend money and buy *many* of the OG Ravenloft books, modules, and supplements. I have the main books, the vampire guides, the Lich guides, werewolves and everything.

I can, and *have* added many OG Ravenloft elements and concepts to various areas of my own campaign. When it comes to running a 5E campaign, why would anyone need anything new for Ravenloft? Especially so when in thinking about it, many of the supplements for OG Ravenloft are gorgeous, richly-detailed--even lush--with additions, advice, style, adventure hooks, npc's, monsters, locations, and more. It seems to me that OG Ravenloft is very thorough and comprehensive--what could 5E Nu-Ravenloft actually do better than OG Ravenloft? It seems easy enough to put together some notes on various creatures 5E mechanical statistics and abilities, and there you go! That is certainly what I would do, and what I am inclined to do. It seems so sad how WOTC has just fucking destroyed Ravenloft. Absolutely disgusting and pathetic!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Brigman on May 21, 2021, 10:48:11 AM
Van Richten's guide came in to my FLGS yesterday.  I'm a big Ravenloft fan, have been since I6 in my youth.  I don't have a complete collection but I buy most Ravenloft things because I love gothic horror and the genre.

I sat this one out. 

The previews and articles I'd read had increasingly turned my stomach, and Pundit's video was the nail in the coffin for me.  "Don't buy games from people who despise you" makes too damn much sense.

Maybe someday Ravenloft will rise from the proverbial grave for me, but for now, I'll just adopt older materials to 5e rules if I want to run it.

The Masque of the Red Death supplement for 5e on DM's Guild was actually quite good, I thought.

Shark, what OG Ravenloft supplements would you most recommend?

Dropbear, thanks for the head's up.  I hadn't looked at it; I will. :)

Quote from: Dropbear on May 21, 2021, 04:11:04 PMThe Masque of the Red Death supplement for 5e on DM's Guild was actually quite good, I thought.

Is that the Players' Guide? -> https://www.dmsguild.com/product/295377/Masque-of-the-Red-Death-Players-Guide
I might pick that one up while there's a Sale.

Edit: Thanks!

Quote from: Godfather Punk on May 22, 2021, 10:16:33 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on May 21, 2021, 04:11:04 PMThe Masque of the Red Death supplement for 5e on DM's Guild was actually quite good, I thought.

Is that the Players' Guide? -> https://www.dmsguild.com/product/295377/Masque-of-the-Red-Death-Players-Guide
I might pick that one up while there's a Sale.

Yes, that's it.

Quote from: Brigman on May 21, 2021, 09:22:56 PM
Shark, what OG Ravenloft supplements would you most recommend?

Dropbear, thanks for the head's up.  I hadn't looked at it; I will. :)

Greetings!

Hi Brigman! Yes, well, in regards to OG Ravenloft, the Black Box, as well as any of the "Van Richten's Guidebooks." I think I have most of them; Vampires, Liches, Mummies, Werewolves. I think there were like half a dozen of them. To be more specific, I will look for them in my collection and update here. I would think, however, pretty much any and all supplements for Ravenloft could be useful and inspiring.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2021, 03:45:35 PM

Quote from: Brigman on May 21, 2021, 09:22:56 PM
Shark, what OG Ravenloft supplements would you most recommend?

Dropbear, thanks for the head's up.  I hadn't looked at it; I will. :)

Greetings!

Hi Brigman! Yes, well, in regards to OG Ravenloft, the Black Box, as well as any of the "Van Richten's Guidebooks." I think I have most of them; Vampires, Liches, Mummies, Werewolves. I think there were like half a dozen of them. To be more specific, I will look for them in my collection and update here. I would think, however, pretty much any and all supplements for Ravenloft could be useful and inspiring.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The Van Richten's Guides are excellent, and not just for Ravenloft/gothic horror. I prefer the Compendium volumes, as they contain material not found in the originals. Highly recommend.

The Van Richten's Guides:

2E:
Vampires, Ghosts, the Lich, Werebeasts, The Created (golems), The Ancient Dead (mummies), Fiends, The Vistani, Witches (including hags, and only published in Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, Volume III)

3E: The Walking Dead, The Shadow Fey, The Mists (unpublished and released as free download)

For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

A lot of grief would be avoided if one simply looked at all books as resources, not canon, and certainly not in conflict with how you, personally, want to see a setting or game done. I don't have the Ravenloft book (yet), but I'm guessing that it doesn't force a particular approach to horror on you. The majority of the flavor is still up to the DM.

Take Tasha's as an example. I don't own it, but some are considering it the beginning of "5.5" or D&D: The Woke Edition. I personally find that irritating, but rather than get riled up about it, I could purchase the book with the idea of looking at it as options to use if I want. I don't have to change the tone of my game, or use anything I don't want to. It is software, not hardware.

Similarly with the ideas of, say, removing racial ability bonuses. I think it is kind of silly, unrealistic, and frankly unnecessary, causing more harm than good in terms of the underlying goal (like a lot of woke stuff), but you can spin it differently and see it as an optional approach that de-tangles people from always choosing optimized race-class combinations. Meaning, it opens the game up a bit more and, like ability score generation, can be see as an optional rule.

Where things might get concerning--and we're not there yet--is if WotC publishes new core rules that exclude certain options to force a certain style on the game. An example of that might be orcs as PC races in the PHB (which is fine) but not as monsters in the MM (which is not).

I personally think the best way forward is to keep "classic D&D" as the default, but include options for alternate approaches. So in the PHB, they could have orcs as a PC ace, with descriptions of how they are in different setting worlds, and a very necessary disclaimer, "Do what you will in your own game." That doesn't take anything away from traditionalists, but it still provides options for the wokists.

The problem is extremists on both sides: The wokesters who want to erase everything from the past and the angry trads who want everything to stay the same. Unfortunately, at least on internet message boards, a large portion of people fall into one extreme or the other. I'm not sure that represents the player base as a whole, though.

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Based on actual sales to customers, or based on sales to distributors/stores?

Sales to customers, through Amazon.

Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 10:36:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Based on actual sales to customers, or based on sales to distributors/stores?

Outrage marketing at its best.

They got people to complain and that attracts others in swarms to buy the book to see if its as bad as they claim. And quite often, SUCKER!!!!! its not as bad because they deliberately hyped things that werent all that prominent just to get free advertising. AND it makes anyone complaining look like perfect examples of "toxic" intolerant fans. Win Win Win for WOkeTC

Scalpers are also probably again buying it in droves looking to make a profit which is over-inflating  the numbers. I knew one person who pre-ordered 10 copies of Tasha so they could sell it at 2x the price.

Believe it or not, most players don't even read stuff on the Internet about this sort of thing.

It's popular because Ravenloft is popular and the prior 5e ravenloft book was their most popular adventure.

I looked through it at the bookstore and it looked very good to me also. It's really not about all the bullshit people on this board talk about. It's just a solid good setting book with other cool fluff and mechanical stuff in it.

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Agreed. Paizo filled the 3rd <-> 4th edition market gap. As WotC moves in to 6⁶⁶th edition(ed: LOL), the more WotC steps on the gas of alienating players who want to play a nonpolitical fantasy game steeped in fantasy tropes, the more there is a market opportunity for aspiring indies.

Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 11:06:38 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Agreed. Paizo filled the 3rd <-> 4th edition market gap. As WotC moves in to 6⁶⁶th edition(ed: LOL), the more WotC steps on the gas of alienating players who want to play a nonpolitical fantasy game steeped in fantasy tropes, the more there is a market opportunity for aspiring indies.

Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

I'm actually not bitching about the book, since I haven't read it. Just stating my general preference for WotC's stance and activities going forward.

Quote from: Pat on May 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

These were some of the most useful books I ever used in a game. Lots of stuff in their to inspire adventures, lots of great optional stuff, and tons of ways to customize monsters, make them more interesting. Couldn't disagree more with this assessment

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

How many total copies is selling fantastic in your mind? Certainly, your only evidence is not the sales rank?

It hit Amazon only five days ago. It is dropping fast now at #15. It is the second lowest reviewed product in the entire top 100.

You can show up with your tea, your pinky hanging out, and your "you guys" lecturing, but anyone with even a little intelligence can see what you are doing. Curious, what was the best thing you liked when you read your copy?

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 11:06:38 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Agreed. Paizo filled the 3rd <-> 4th edition market gap. As WotC moves in to 6⁶⁶th edition(ed: LOL), the more WotC steps on the gas of alienating players who want to play a nonpolitical fantasy game steeped in fantasy tropes, the more there is a market opportunity for aspiring indies.

Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

That's the same argument Disney defenders gave about The Last Jedi.  And look where the SW franchise is right now (Its hottest property is a streamed series that won't even return for another year.  The movies are dead).  Ravenloft is getting bought based off of the name and the last module.  The test will be how the next Ravenloft material sells, especially if it is marketed as more of the "new" style...

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

   I'd typically consider this an overstatement, but after a couple  (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/im-not-interested-in-being-the-underdog.881720/)of threads  (https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/productive-scab-picking-on-oppressive-themes-in-gaming.881748/)posted at TBP yesterday, I don't even know if everyone's involved in the same hobby despite playing the same games ...

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 07:48:30 AM

Quote from: Pat on May 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

These were some of the most useful books I ever used in a game. Lots of stuff in their to inspire adventures, lots of great optional stuff, and tons of ways to customize monsters, make them more interesting. Couldn't disagree more with this assessment

So you think they don't greatly expand the options for each monster, and don't have any interesting monster hunter stories?

Quote from: Pat on May 23, 2021, 11:36:30 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 07:48:30 AM

Quote from: Pat on May 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

These were some of the most useful books I ever used in a game. Lots of stuff in their to inspire adventures, lots of great optional stuff, and tons of ways to customize monsters, make them more interesting. Couldn't disagree more with this assessment

So you think they don't greatly expand the options for each monster, and don't have any interesting monster hunter stories?

No. I largely disagreed. On interesting monster hunt stories: yes, absolutely. These helped me understand how to create a functional, long term Ravenloft campaign. They were great. On option, yes, it greatly expanded options, which is part of what made Ravenloft work

There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

That's more about running Curse of Strahd than the newer Van R's Guide, right? Is there an update that just hits the new points, because I'm not reading through a bunch of old shit to get to the new.

I can't believe how they destroyed this product...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

He's available for 'consultation' apparently... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

And you can support him on Ko Fi (whatever the fuck that is).

Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

Behind every SJW movement there is a grifter making threats against your character unless you pay them.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 12:58:22 PM

No. I largely disagreed. On interesting monster hunt stories: yes, absolutely. These helped me understand how to create a functional, long term Ravenloft campaign. They were great. On option, yes, it greatly expanded options, which is part of what made Ravenloft work

I gave a largely positive review, and the only thing you really said (even now) is that you disagreed, and that you liked the books. Since those two contradict each other, I pointed out the incongruity.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Why not?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

the extra ref material is helpful so it's not pure finger-waggins but i'll do what is fine with my group and not the people who aren't in it

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Why not?

Why would they?

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:43:02 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Why not?

Why would they?

Because they're copied from racist stereotypes of Romani?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

Greetings!

The chick that wrote that "Roma Correction" for changing Curse of Strahd is a fucking moron. That's what I think.

The Vistani of Ravenloft are a fictional culture of mostly corrupted, evil humans that serve Strahd and other wicked, evil powers. They don't have any real connection with Roma or Gypsy peoples in our own world. The Vistani are based on the fantasy gypsy mercenaries, thugs, and cultists of Coppola's 1992 DRACULA, and various other vampire and horror movies over the last 70 years. For example, the Hammer vampire films, Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing starring, along with all the hot Italian and Romanian actresses that accompanied them.

Such films also employed many older men and women, serving as townsmen, Gypsies, mystics, spies, village priests, and more which added immensely to the fantasy entertainment.

Who the fuck watches an old Hammer vampire movie--or 1992 Dracula, and thinks..."Hmmm...Gypsy people down the road...they must be evil, drunk thieves, casting the Evil Eye on people!"

This absolute disconnect between consuming, enjoying, and discerning fiction--in games here--and reality--reflects just how intellectually flaccid these Liberal, SJW racists truly are. These fucking slugs are themselves full of racism, hate, self-loathing, and a Marxist brainwashed desire to forcibly create a mindless, soulless, Marxist utopia.

I think the stereotypes concerning VISTANI in the game are fucking AWESOME! They create an instant pool of dark villains, mystics, and lackies to help the villains and oppose the player characters. Such a sub-culture is distinct, and very playable and useful in any campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

This also got me thinking about a similar realm. Have any of you ever played Advanced Squad Leader, or Rise and Decline of the Third Reich? How about Axis & Allies? Essentially the same thing.

When you are playing the Werhmacht, and crushing your pathetic enemies under your Panzers, and raising the Swastika over their capital cities in triumph--are you actually a Nazi serving the Third Reich?

All of these Marxist Liberal activists in our gaming hobby are terrible people, nihilistic, and bent on corrupting and destroying our hobby, as well as our society. They are all deeply, mentally ill, and hopelessly brainwashed and emotionally damaged.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Just because Strahd has some mercenaries of Vistani descent doesn't mean that all Vistani everywhere are evil. Van Richten wrote a whole book explaining that isn't true.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 05:53:50 PM
Just because Strahd has some mercenaries of Vistani descent doesn't mean that all Vistani everywhere are evil. Van Richten wrote a whole book explaining that isn't true.

Greetings!

BoxCrayonTales, you do realise--I hope--that I know that? I don't need a Van Richten's Book to tell me that "Gee, not all Vistani are evil minions of Strahd or other dark monsters?"

BCT, in my campaigns, I have had *good* Gypsies since *before* Ravenloft ever saw the light of day.

It's a theatrical, fantasy trope for the *game.* It doesn't have a damned thing to do with real people. You seem to have a difficulty comprehending this salient point. EVERYTHING in the Ravenloft is fantasy. None of it has any direct connection with the real world. Are cartoons or Anime or Manga dealing with the real world? Are Coyote's actually buying bombs from ACME to blow people up?

Again, this whole absolute insistence that elements in *THE GAME* have, somehow, real world connections, influences, and directives. They don't. It's a fucking fantasy game.

All of these sobbing, cuck bitches sniveling and crying about being "offended". WHAAA! WHAAA!

Do you notice how they go through damn near everything in D&D and critique it? Everything is offensive, racist, homophobic, misogynistic, white supremacist--how about shut the fuck up and go and make their own rainbow fucking hippo game that is all sweetness and sugar?

NORMAL gamers reject these crying, rainbow cultists. They smoke cigars and laugh at them, mocking them endlessly about how stupid, pathetic, and cucked they are. Normal gamers DON'T AGREE with the Marxist critiques of D&D. Normal gamers DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SJW TEARS!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Your wording was confusing me. That's why I said what I did.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 04:09:47 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:43:02 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Why not?

Why would they?

Because they're copied from racist stereotypes of Romani?

They are copied from the experiences that visitors and inhabitants had with wandering bands of people, many of whom were shady and crooked, that were encountered in Eastern European countries. If Romani were over-represented in those encounters, then that is on them and not the people who were relaying what they experienced.  I do like how, in light of how your questions progressed, you were fishing for a response so that you could express your opinion, making your questions unnecessary (if you were of the opinion that the Vistani were based on stereotypes, why ask?).  Shady behavior on your part.

Even if we consider Romani a "race" (which they aren't), the stereotype would be directed at their culture.  Which, since a culture is a choice (as no one is born with a culture), it is perfectly appropriate to criticize, parody, or stereotype a culture.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 06:59:32 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 04:09:47 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:43:02 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Why not?

Why would they?

Because they're copied from racist stereotypes of Romani?

They are copied from the experiences that visitors and inhabitants had with wandering bands of people, many of whom were shady and crooked, that were encountered in Eastern European countries. If Romani were over-represented in those encounters, then that is on them and not the people who were relaying what they experienced.  I do like how, in light of how your questions progressed, you were fishing for a response so that you could express your opinion, making your questions unnecessary (if you were of the opinion that the Vistani were based on stereotypes, why ask?).  Shady behavior on your part.

Even if we consider Romani a "race" (which they aren't), the stereotype would be directed at their culture.  Which, since a culture is a choice (as no one is born with a culture), it is perfectly appropriate to criticize, parody, or stereotype a culture.

Okay then.

What is actually wrong with using stereotypes in a game of pure make believe anyway? Every game does it in one form or another. Or either it's just a case of filing the serial numbers off and renaming the so-called 'new' race.

I grew up with American 80s media. I love it... After watching all those great movies from the 80s I'm going to use any stereotypes I wish. Everything is fair game for creative purposes.

But for some bizarre reason the SJWs can't seem to distinguish between rpgs and real life, and that they feel the need to 'educate' all of us adults. Of course what they also can't seem to grasp is that just because we use a trope in a game, that does'nt mean we actually ascribe those attributes to 'real world people'. It's a preposterous concept at best.

I'm a big fan of Gothic Horror, and if I want to use gypsie stereotypes as groups of thieves, or for cursing people I'm going to use it. In the same way, I might use the Thugee from Temple of Doom.

It's all good for gaming material, as long as you don't use those stereotypes in real life to judge people. But we are all grown ups so we know that already, right?

So feel free to use whatever you want, and if some man-baby cries 'foul' just tell the to fugg off and mind their own.

By the way, I see shitty Irish stereo types all the time - Portraying us as drunk, uneducated fist fighter terrorists. I couldn't give a shite... Enjoy! Because I'll be doing it to you - but it's only in the name of gaming fun.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:53:50 PM
What is actually wrong with using stereotypes in a game of pure make believe anyway? Every game does it in one form or another. Or either it's just a case of filing the serial numbers off and renaming the so-called 'new' race.

I grew up with American 80s media. I love it... After watching all those great movies from the 80s I'm going to use any stereotypes I wish. Everything is fair game for creative purposes.

But for some bizarre reason the SJWs can't seem to distinguish between rpgs and real life, and that they feel the need to 'educate' all of us adults. Of course what they also can't seem to grasp is that just because we use a trope in a game, that does'nt mean we actually ascribe those attributes to 'real world people'. It's a preposterous concept at best.

I'm a big fan of Gothic Horror, and if I want to use gypsie stereotypes as groups of thieves, or for cursing people I'm going to use it. In the same way, I might use the Thugee from Temple of Doom.

It's all good for gaming material, as long as you don't use those stereotypes in real life to judge people. But we are all grown ups so we know that already, right?

So feel free to use whatever you want, and if some man-baby cries 'foul' just tell the to fugg off and mind their own.

By the way, I see shitty Irish stereo types all the time - Portraying us as drunk, uneducated fist fighter terrorists. I couldn't give a shite... Enjoy! Because I'll be doing it to you - but it's only in the name of gaming fun.

Greetings!

Rob Necronomicon, an Irish lad? ;D

Cheers, Rob! I'm Irish, too. I agree with you entirely here. "Stereotypes", such as they are, are useful thumbnails, so to speak. Of course, there's elements of truth in most stereotypes, for everyone. They are largely based on many people's direct experiences with whoever. Just like with the Irish stereotypes, I tend to take it in stride, with a good measure of humour! Yes, Irish have historically been known to love alcohol too much, and to be often violent as well. In addition to hugely stubborn, proud, and unforgiving. The Irish have very long memories. ;D Again, for creative purposes in a game, it's all fair game, and in good fun. I don't take such things personally. This seems to be a constant problem amongst the SJW types. They are always finding something, anything, everything, to be offended by. And also disturbing how so many of them can't seem to really distinguish between a game, and real life, real life people, and real opinions.

We have the whole Orcs controversy, the black-skinned, evil Drow Elves, and now, of course, Ravenloft. The SJW insanity just never ends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Your (and all historical canon) Ravenlofts (Ravens-loft?) may vary, of course...

But in my campaigns, I square the circle as following:

Being Vistani isn't a matter of bloodline, or tradition.  What Vistani are are people who travel from place to place, performing itinerant work the locals can't or won't do, whose true allegiances are mysterious, and who have ties to dark forces mundane and otherwise, and whom, it is agreed, messing with with anything other than overwhelming force is a bad, bad idea.

That is to say, PCs who pop into Ravenloft are Vistani by default, and immediately gain mysterious and fell powers around curses and the Evil Eye, a very concerning sixth sense when the mist comes down, and a series of mysterious coincidences which render their previous wardrobes unusable and replacement, very-colorful wardrobes made available, and need to deal with the prejudices of a group of superstitious, insular people whose last three attempts to open up to mysterious strangers all got townsfolk eaten.

---

And this also means that by default, the PCs can decide that the Demiplane of Dread sucks and that they can leave at any time.  And that is one thing that Curse of Strahd has really failed at generating horror.  PCs forced into a mysterious haunted house by the Will of Dread executed via misty impenetrable walls is not scary, except in the sense that the creeping inevitable end of the universe is scary.  When you have no options and no agency, your choices don't matter.  But when you can turn and walk away, at the small, small price of consigning a child to a fate worse than death, do you turn and hide, or do you gear up and march into that haunted house like Ellen Motherfucking Ripley going into the hive in the Aliens movie?

Horror that you choose to face has teeth.  And the fact that you can run for it actually adds to a lot of the horror in Curse of Strahd itself, I think; since by default the PCs are trapped and on the Plot Train, then they know that a final fight is coming, and that they can't escape it.  But if you tease Strahd as unbeatable regardless of PC preparation or plans, and showcase the others who thought they could face him and failed, and let the PCs know that they can flee at any time and if they do pull up to Castle Ravenloft with their preparation and plans, and they fail, it will be entirely their fault and that they could have avoided this, at the small, small price of leaving Barovia to its fate?

Then that choice means something.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:53:50 PM
What is actually wrong with using stereotypes in a game of pure make believe anyway? Every game does it in one form or another. Or either it's just a case of filing the serial numbers off and renaming the so-called 'new' race.

I grew up with American 80s media. I love it... After watching all those great movies from the 80s I'm going to use any stereotypes I wish. Everything is fair game for creative purposes.

But for some bizarre reason the SJWs can't seem to distinguish between rpgs and real life, and that they feel the need to 'educate' all of us adults. Of course what they also can't seem to grasp is that just because we use a trope in a game, that does'nt mean we actually ascribe those attributes to 'real world people'. It's a preposterous concept at best.

I'm a big fan of Gothic Horror, and if I want to use gypsie stereotypes as groups of thieves, or for cursing people I'm going to use it. In the same way, I might use the Thugee from Temple of Doom.

It's all good for gaming material, as long as you don't use those stereotypes in real life to judge people. But we are all grown ups so we know that already, right?

So feel free to use whatever you want, and if some man-baby cries 'foul' just tell the to fugg off and mind their own.

By the way, I see shitty Irish stereo types all the time - Portraying us as drunk, uneducated fist fighter terrorists. I couldn't give a shite... Enjoy! Because I'll be doing it to you - but it's only in the name of gaming fun.

Maybe it has something to do with self-confidence?

I find it easy to sneer at obsessions with pronouns because I don't put value on pronouns. I don't care about being misgendered. I don't even know why English has pronouns like it does, and I wouldn't mind if there weren't any.

But I'm not Romani, so I don't know what it is like to see your culture represented in media as a horror movie cliche or vilified on European news stations.

I don't know. I'm open to new evidence.

Masque of Red Death was definitely +1 Ravenloft. I'd argue MoRD was among the very best non-CoC horror RPGs.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

Nice to see the gypsies have evolved their grift for the modern age.

As for the Vistani, they are not the Roma any more than L5R's Rogukan is Japan or Warhammer's Bretonnia is France.

As with all products, if any fantasy creation offends you, vote with your dollars and/or your feet.

Or cry on Twatter until WotC grovels and fistfucks its own IP into idiot land.

My Ravenloft will always have Vistani who are useful, but dangerous. In a setting that's already full of places that fear outsiders, the Vistani truly divide the world into Us vs. Them, and its why they have survived and perhaps thrived in the Domains of Dread. 

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Rob Necronomicon, an Irish lad? ;D

Cheers, Rob! I'm Irish, too. I agree with you entirely here. "Stereotypes", such as they are, are useful thumbnails, so to speak. Of course, there's elements of truth in most stereotypes, for everyone. They are largely based on many people's direct experiences with whoever. Just like with the Irish stereotypes, I tend to take it in stride, with a good measure of humour! Yes, Irish have historically been known to love alcohol too much, and to be often violent as well. In addition to hugely stubborn, proud, and unforgiving. The Irish have very long memories. ;D Again, for creative purposes in a game, it's all fair game, and in good fun. I don't take such things personally. This seems to be a constant problem amongst the SJW types. They are always finding something, anything, everything, to be offended by. And also disturbing how so many of them can't seem to really distinguish between a game, and real life, real life people, and real opinions.

We have the whole Orcs controversy, the black-skinned, evil Drow Elves, and now, of course, Ravenloft. The SJW insanity just never ends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I am, born and bread! Top of the morning to ya', I didn't realize you were Irish bro'. :) You're based in the US right? There's a lot of us over there, in our second ancestral home. :)

Yeah, I'm with you here as well. There's definitely some grain of truth in a stereotype, if you look deep enough. I'd be the first one to say, that if you look at the 'Irish travelers' as one ethnic group. You can safely say, that wherever they go there is a spike in crime. This matches my own experience (and most everyone else's too!), but beyond that, the 'facts' speak for themselves. But people are reluctant to mention it (including the Police), because of being perceived as 'racist'. That does'nt mean every Irish Traveler is a thief of course.

But the sjws can't handle facts. LOL

I'm the same... Most of the Irish just take that on the chin - But then give it back too ;). But it's all just banter (another concept the sjws can't fathom). I went to college in the UK. And all my English mates would take the piss out of my accent and I'd do the same to them. But it was all good.

Yeah, those gimps need a reality check... As you say, all this bullshit about orcs and drow elves, etc. And not a jot of evidence to back it up, other than a few quasi mumbo jumbo opinions. Meh...

At the end of the day... It's about playing a game of make believe and having fun with your mates. I've no problem with them playing whatever unicorn pony games they want, it's none of my business.

And I still scratch my head everyday wondering what all this politics malarkey has to do with gaming? I'm an old leftie as I've said before, but I don't really care what someone's politics is, as long as they are decent people and good to game with. What else do you need? :)

Unfortunately, those sjw types like to stick their noses up everyone else's butt, and then tell them what to do and how to play. And we can't be having that... I'll not let some 'no mark' tell me what I can and can't do. :)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 08:42:28 PM

Maybe it has something to do with self-confidence?

I find it easy to sneer at obsessions with pronouns because I don't put value on pronouns. I don't care about being misgendered. I don't even know why English has pronouns like it does, and I wouldn't mind if there weren't any.

But I'm not Romani, so I don't know what it is like to see your culture represented in media as a horror movie cliche or vilified on European news stations.

I don't know. I'm open to new evidence.

Well, I can't speak for the Romani. But I've certainly faced Racism myself. While I worked as a bouncer in the UK (as a way to put me through art college) I was threatened to be stabbed on multiple occasions. Got into several scraps because of my accent (I never initiated the violence incidentally). There were a couple of other incidents too (that included stuff work too while I was over there). However, I must say that the majority of English people are very cool and it was just a small number of idiot degenerates.

So, I'm sure it's not too nice for the Romani.

That said, we are back to the whole make-believe thing again. When we are playing these games our 'intent' is not to hurt people, but just have some fun with a well established trope in the gothic horror genre. If people draw parallels to the real world when it's only a game (and you're simply emulating a genre) then they are a bit stupid imo.

I mean, does all that Hammer house stuff really represent the real world. It never did... And I don't think it should ever be taken too seriously.

Quote from: robertliguori on May 23, 2021, 08:33:18 PM
Ravenlofts (Ravens-loft?)

It would be an unkindness of Ravenlofts.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic.

Again, same thing happened with Tasha. Outrage marketing and scalpers combined. That is the diametric opposite of fantastic.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 09:03:51 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Rob Necronomicon, an Irish lad? ;D

Cheers, Rob! I'm Irish, too. I agree with you entirely here. "Stereotypes", such as they are, are useful thumbnails, so to speak. Of course, there's elements of truth in most stereotypes, for everyone. They are largely based on many people's direct experiences with whoever. Just like with the Irish stereotypes, I tend to take it in stride, with a good measure of humour! Yes, Irish have historically been known to love alcohol too much, and to be often violent as well. In addition to hugely stubborn, proud, and unforgiving. The Irish have very long memories. ;D Again, for creative purposes in a game, it's all fair game, and in good fun. I don't take such things personally. This seems to be a constant problem amongst the SJW types. They are always finding something, anything, everything, to be offended by. And also disturbing how so many of them can't seem to really distinguish between a game, and real life, real life people, and real opinions.

We have the whole Orcs controversy, the black-skinned, evil Drow Elves, and now, of course, Ravenloft. The SJW insanity just never ends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I am, born and bread! Top of the morning to ya', I didn't realize you were Irish bro'. :) You're based in the US right? There's a lot of us over there, in our second ancestral home. :)

Yeah, I'm with you here as well. There's definitely some grain of truth in a stereotype, if you look deep enough. I'd be the first one to say, that if you look at the 'Irish travelers' as one ethnic group. You can safely say, that wherever they go there is a spike in crime. This matches my own experience (and most everyone else's too!), but beyond that, the 'facts' speak for themselves. But people are reluctant to mention it (including the Police), because of being perceived as 'racist'. That does'nt mean every Irish Traveler is a thief of course.

But the sjws can't handle facts. LOL

I'm the same... Most of the Irish just take that on the chin - But then give it back too ;). But it's all just banter (another concept the sjws can't fathom). I went to college in the UK. And all my English mates would take the piss out of my accent and I'd do the same to them. But it was all good.

Yeah, those gimps need a reality check... As you say, all this bullshit about orcs and drow elves, etc. And not a jot of evidence to back it up, other than a few quasi mumbo jumbo opinions. Meh...

At the end of the day... It's about playing a game of make believe and having fun with your mates. I've no problem with them playing whatever unicorn pony games they want, it's none of my business.

And I still scratch my head everyday wondering what all this politics malarkey has to do with gaming? I'm an old leftie as I've said before, but I don't really care what someone's politics is, as long as they are decent people and good to game with. What else do you need? :)

Unfortunately, those sjw types like to stick their noses up everyone else's butt, and then tell them what to do and how to play. And we can't be having that... I'll not let some 'no mark' tell me what I can and can't do. :)

Greetings!

Outstanding, Rob! ;D Yes, indeed I am Irish. I have some other nationalities too, but the Irish is prominent. My Irish branch of the family originally came from County Cork, in Southern Ireland.

What part of Ireland are you in, Rob?

It's especially sad with how the SJW's are corrupting our hobby, bringing in Marxist ideology, division, racism, and all the rest of their horrible nonsense. I'm also convinced that these jackasses--like Pundit has talked on so often--many of these slugs aren't even *gamers*. They are more like activists that like to gather around a "Gaming Coffeebook" and a few rulebooks and have "struggle sessions" where they search through every part of the book, looking for every idea or turn of phrase to be offended by, and then seek to start a Twitter mob to scream and cancel someone or otherwise harass them. Just like we can see with what these morons like Jessica Price and the rest of the rainbow hippo crew of writers that were assembled to create the Nu-Ravenloft book, few of these people have any actual experience in writing or game design, and demonstrate a hatred for traditional games, traditional gaming, and normal gamers. Especially reserving their most intense hatred and contempt for any gamers that are male, straight, and white.

It's all so disgusting and terrible. It makes me want to light up a cigar, get a strong drink, and rant with the boys. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 24, 2021, 03:44:09 AM


Greetings!

Outstanding, Rob! ;D Yes, indeed I am Irish. I have some other nationalities too, but the Irish is prominent. My Irish branch of the family originally came from County Cork, in Southern Ireland.

What part of Ireland are you in, Rob?

It's especially sad with how the SJW's are corrupting our hobby, bringing in Marxist ideology, division, racism, and all the rest of their horrible nonsense. I'm also convinced that these jackasses--like Pundit has talked on so often--many of these slugs aren't even *gamers*. They are more like activists that like to gather around a "Gaming Coffeebook" and a few rulebooks and have "struggle sessions" where they search through every part of the book, looking for every idea or turn of phrase to be offended by, and then seek to start a Twitter mob to scream and cancel someone or otherwise harass them. Just like we can see with what these morons like Jessica Price and the rest of the rainbow hippo crew of writers that were assembled to create the Nu-Ravenloft book, few of these people have any actual experience in writing or game design, and demonstrate a hatred for traditional games, traditional gaming, and normal gamers. Especially reserving their most intense hatred and contempt for any gamers that are male, straight, and white.

It's all so disgusting and terrible. It makes me want to light up a cigar, get a strong drink, and rant with the boys. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey mate,

Ah, so your from the rebel county Cork! Would you believe myself and the missus have recently moved to West Cork (a year and a half ago). It's easily the best place to live in Ireland as far as I'm concerned. The people down here are absolutely lovely. I'm actually from Dublin myself. Half my other family all hail from Wexford.

The modern Irish are all very laid back these days... They are happy to let people do what they want, but don't like being told what to do. ;) Plus, we can take a joke - unlike some of the crybaby sjws!

Yeah, it's a sad state of affairs when certain 'do-gooders' think they have the right to educate the populous through their mass media propaganda. If I wanted further education I'd go on a fucking course! Pundit really knows how to wind these fools up and tell the truth at the same time. Respect! :)

In all honesty I dropped D&D a good while back. The only thing that made any sense was the OSR. And as Pundit says some of the best and most innovative games have come through the movement.

The best way to punish these gimps, including corporate scum like hasbro is just to vote with your wallet, and tell other people not to listen to their BS. And that it's fine to play whatever you want. Just don't be bullied by sjw man-babies. :)

Yeah bruv, I hear that. it's pretty damn depressing... Makes me want to crack open the Jameson and watch the newest Inappropriate Characters vid.

Cheers,

Rob.

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 06:49:00 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 05:53:50 PM
Just because Strahd has some mercenaries of Vistani descent doesn't mean that all Vistani everywhere are evil. Van Richten wrote a whole book explaining that isn't true.

Greetings!

BoxCrayonTales, you do realise--I hope--that I know that? I don't need a Van Richten's Book to tell me that "Gee, not all Vistani are evil minions of Strahd or other dark monsters?"

BCT, in my campaigns, I have had *good* Gypsies since *before* Ravenloft ever saw the light of day.

It's a theatrical, fantasy trope for the *game.* It doesn't have a damned thing to do with real people. You seem to have a difficulty comprehending this salient point. EVERYTHING in the Ravenloft is fantasy. None of it has any direct connection with the real world. Are cartoons or Anime or Manga dealing with the real world? Are Coyote's actually buying bombs from ACME to blow people up?

Again, this whole absolute insistence that elements in *THE GAME* have, somehow, real world connections, influences, and directives. They don't. It's a fucking fantasy game.

All of these sobbing, cuck bitches sniveling and crying about being "offended". WHAAA! WHAAA!

Do you notice how they go through damn near everything in D&D and critique it? Everything is offensive, racist, homophobic, misogynistic, white supremacist--how about shut the fuck up and go and make their own rainbow fucking hippo game that is all sweetness and sugar?

NORMAL gamers reject these crying, rainbow cultists. They smoke cigars and laugh at them, mocking them endlessly about how stupid, pathetic, and cucked they are. Normal gamers DON'T AGREE with the Marxist critiques of D&D. Normal gamers DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SJW TEARS!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I care about SJW tears. They are the most thirst-quenching beverage...

Quote from: FingerRod on May 23, 2021, 07:53:18 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

How many total copies is selling fantastic in your mind? Certainly, your only evidence is not the sales rank?

It hit Amazon only five days ago. It is dropping fast now at #15. It is the second lowest reviewed product in the entire top 100.

You can show up with your tea, your pinky hanging out, and your "you guys" lecturing, but anyone with even a little intelligence can see what you are doing. Curious, what was the best thing you liked when you read your copy?

Dude anything in the top 100 best sellers on Amazon for a week is fantastic sales. For any book, of any kind. As for how many copies is fantastic? I guess maybe around 20K in the first month or so? A NYT Bestseller is around 5,000 copies in a week by the way. Amazon top 25 five days in is unquestionably fantastic sales. And of course it doesn't have that many reviews - it just came out! Reviews happen after people receive the book and read it.

As for what I liked when I looked at it at Barnes & Noble, I liked the many sub-domains. Like Bluetspur, the mind flayer realm which messes with your memory. I liked Falkovnia with the endless war against the zombie hordes. I liked Carnival, which wanders the mists with stranger performers and a living sword. I liked Har'Akir with it's mummies and ancient egypt vibe. I liked Darkon with a fortress is frozen mid-explosion and rooms trying to put themselves back together. I liked the haunted train. I thought the House of Lament adventure looked like a pretty good low level adventure. I liked the spirit-channeling bard, and I thought the undead warlock subclass was much better than the prior undying one from Sword Coast (or wherever that original was from). I liked the loup garou. I liked that this entire book is more DMs tools to build your own domain or flesh out one of those domains rather than a written-in-stone railroad type book.

Quote from: Omega on May 24, 2021, 03:25:45 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic.

Again, same thing happened with Tasha. Outrage marketing and scalpers combined. That is the diametric opposite of fantastic.

And, again, your theory is complete nonsense lacking even a shred of evidential support and in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theorist screaming about the end of the world on the street corner.

Tasha's DID do fantastic. All objective evidence of it's sales are that it sold through the roof. It's not outrage marketing - the huge overwhelming majority of people saw no outrage over it at all. Go look at Reddit or any other place with a huge number of views and comments about it, and you will see people loved that book. It's only tiny places like here, that you can get that theme of of "people dislike it" going.

Here are I think the main issues at play here:

1) People here believe "Get Woke Go Broke" is a universal truth; and
2) People here believe WOTC has "Gotten Woke"; therefore
3) People here think WOTC will "Go Broke" (whatever that term means in this context).

So when it seems like WOTC is just doing better and better every year (which they are) and it seems like their customers in general don't care about the "woke" issues here people are focused on (as in either way - they don't even notice those issues for the most part) it seems to cause some sort of cognitive dissonance in with a lot of people here.

WOTC's customer base is majority under 30. Their customer base is buying more and more WOTC material. And their customer base largely doesn't even focus on the issues people here focus on, either in a positive or negative way. MOST of their customers are just focusing on story and mechanical elements they think might be cool for their game. That's it. That's 90%+ of the feedback you can find online as a generalization. Which, frankly, was 90%+ of the feedback you could find for AD&D 1e and 2e when they were the current edition as well (though obviously not on the Internet for that era).

Tasha's and this Ravenloft book are not selling because of "woke" issues, either because of outrage or agreement with those issues. Those are not the things most people even notice about them. Most of the people buying those books just like fairly ordinary RPG content found in them, either story-based or mechanical-based or both.

But I know, that's not sexy it's just boring and normal. Which doesn't fly on the Internet - particularly here.

I think the surge in popularity can be attributed entirely to Stranger Things being free advertising. And also the internet blowing up in the last decade.

The hobby has changed dramatically since the old school period. Freakshow parties are normal now.

Most people don't actually care about the gender and race issues. I roll my eyes whenever somebody uses "cis" to refer to themselves and others, but I don't care much.

Ravenloft is a freakshow now. Every setting is a freakshow by default now. Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, etc have their work cut out for them when it comes to distinguishing themselves now.

You don't want every setting to be a freakshow? Well, fuck you. /sarcasm

Regarding preferred Ravenloft material -

I've run I6 and I10 (Ravenloft and Ravenloft II) multiple times - most recently with an update to 5E rules. They're probably my favorite D&D modules, along with Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Forbidden City, and a few others.

I personally didn't get anything out of the Ravenloft boxed set, and I really didn't like the whole concept of "demi-plane of dread" and alternate rules - as opposed to just running gothic horror adventures. I played once in an abortive Ravenloft campaign, but it fell apart after just a few sessions, which didn't improve the concept.

I'm familiar with the original boxed set and a number of the 2E modules including Feast of Goblyns, Web of Illusion, and Roots of Evil. The modules had very linear plotting and to some degree metaplotting, encouraging fixed storylines where the PCs are pawns of Ravenloft masters. Feast of Goblyns had some useful material to mine for, but I thought they were terrible - and especially so compared to the excellent original modules that didn't involve the demi-plane.

I'm not familiar with the old Van Richten's guides, though. I was quite fond of some of the Chill material - notably it's Vampire module, which I thought had some great material for adventures - but that's in a different setting.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 12:58:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 23, 2021, 11:36:30 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 07:48:30 AM

Quote from: Pat on May 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

These were some of the most useful books I ever used in a game. Lots of stuff in their to inspire adventures, lots of great optional stuff, and tons of ways to customize monsters, make them more interesting. Couldn't disagree more with this assessment

So you think they don't greatly expand the options for each monster, and don't have any interesting monster hunter stories?

No. I largely disagreed. On interesting monster hunt stories: yes, absolutely. These helped me understand how to create a functional, long term Ravenloft campaign. They were great. On option, yes, it greatly expanded options, which is part of what made Ravenloft work

Brendan, can you expand on what you thought made them good? Especially, how much is tied to the demi-plane of dread concept versus being useful for gothic horror game in an unrelated setting?

Quote from: jhkim on May 24, 2021, 03:01:58 PM
Regarding preferred Ravenloft material -

I've run I6 and I10 (Ravenloft and Ravenloft II) multiple times - most recently with an update to 5E rules. They're probably my favorite D&D modules, along with Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Forbidden City, and a few others.

I personally didn't get anything out of the Ravenloft boxed set, and I really didn't like the whole concept of "demi-plane of dread" and alternate rules - as opposed to just running gothic horror adventures. I played once in an abortive Ravenloft campaign, but it fell apart after just a few sessions, which didn't improve the concept.

I'm familiar with the original boxed set and a number of the 2E modules including Feast of Goblyns, Web of Illusion, and Roots of Evil. The modules had very linear plotting and to some degree metaplotting, encouraging fixed storylines where the PCs are pawns of Ravenloft masters. Feast of Goblyns had some useful material to mine for, but I thought they were terrible - and especially so compared to the excellent original modules that didn't involve the demi-plane.

I'm not familiar with the old Van Richten's guides, though. I was quite fond of some of the Chill material - notably it's Vampire module, which I thought had some great material for adventures - but that's in a different setting.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 12:58:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 23, 2021, 11:36:30 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 07:48:30 AM

Quote from: Pat on May 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

These were some of the most useful books I ever used in a game. Lots of stuff in their to inspire adventures, lots of great optional stuff, and tons of ways to customize monsters, make them more interesting. Couldn't disagree more with this assessment

So you think they don't greatly expand the options for each monster, and don't have any interesting monster hunter stories?

No. I largely disagreed. On interesting monster hunt stories: yes, absolutely. These helped me understand how to create a functional, long term Ravenloft campaign. They were great. On option, yes, it greatly expanded options, which is part of what made Ravenloft work

Brendan, can you expand on what you thought made them good? Especially, how much is tied to the demi-plane of dread concept versus being useful for gothic horror game in an unrelated setting?

I don't know how useful they are outside Ravenloft, I only used them for Ravenloft (I pretty much ran strictly Ravenloft Campaigns for the length I GM'd 2E). They did inform how I approach monsters and horror outside D&D, but I can't speak how useful they would be to a forgotten realms GM or Dragonlance Gm (or home-brew GM).

My mind is mush today so will try to give the basic things that appealed to me:

1) Evocative first hand accounts of Van Richten: These were incredibly important for showing what the setting was like at the ground level. I normally hate first person narration in this stuff, something about the Van Richten books (and Van Richten's personality) struck the right tone---felt very classic horror movie to me. I would liken it to how social history or micro history can help you understand history at the ground level, the books just take a finer lens to the setting and for me, they helped to expand it in an explosive way. More importantly the accounts in the book illustrate how to construct monster hunts and investigations (which I think are where Ravenloft shines). It helped shift me away from linear adventures towards adventures where there is some kind of evil threat or bad guy, and moving parts, but the players decide how they want to tackle it, and it can shift from the hunter becoming the hunted.

2) Customizable monsters: These books were about customization and making variations of different types of creature in a category. They made it possible to have liches who all felt different, and whose weaknesses or strengths might be unpredictable for example. This ties to point 1 as well, as the customization, and how it is often tied to backstory, very much impacted the investigative nature of these monster based adventures (having monsters with unique weaknesses for example worked really well for taking a monster players might know the stats from in the MM and making them a lot more challenging and interesting. A lot of this tied to the demi plane and how it impacted the nature of monsters, characters etc.

3) The humor. There was a humor to the books, often around the things Van Richten didn't know or thought he knew. Something about this really appealed to me

4) Art, borders, and overall layout. It was pointed out that there are thick margins. This is by design. The look of Ravenloft books went a long way towards selling them for me, and many of the Van Richten books had that classic rasvenloft look as well as some of the best fabian art in the line.

In terms of the demiplane's nature, not sure exactly what you are looking for regarding the Van Richten books. The customization was related I supposed (as I mentioned above). The individual accounts connected to the nature of the setting by way of Van Richten recounting his travels to different domains. Also monsters basically function like small scale domain lords (which is why you have so much customization----and you aren't limited to the options provided in the VR books, you can take a page from the powers check section of the rules and create unique monsters that way. Between the two you have a lot of power to make monsters that feel more like the monsters you see in movies or stories (they feel very individual, and they often vary).

All that said, if the line didn't grab you, it didn't grab you. A lot of people didn't like the weekend in hell thing (which is very black boxed set). Domains of Dread provided an approach that allowed for more steady campaigns with characters from Ravenloft (personally I liked the run the "Campaign in Hell", so I didn't use native characters as much. But DoD is pretty well regarded among many fans. Black Box for me is more about the tone, the mission statement, the way it just hit my like a shovel the first time I read it (and I kept wanting to re-read it). But its tone put some off. It's narrow focus didn't appeal to everyone. Its barebones approach seemed thin to some (for me I viewed entries as starting points, and felt it was a setting you had to grow yourslef). Its heavy use of classic horror tropes (basically pulling in all the classic monsters and giving them domains) didn't work for everyone: I grew up on universal and hammer film, I was a fan of Vincent Price as a kid, and so this stuff worked for me. I high school I was a fan of silent horror movies like Phantom of the Opera and Nosferatu. Speaking of price, the camp element also didn't appeal to everyone. I think for some people ravenloft both took itself too seriously and veered into camp, and that didn't hit the right tone. Again, for me, it worked.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 02:32:19 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on May 23, 2021, 07:53:18 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

How many total copies is selling fantastic in your mind? Certainly, your only evidence is not the sales rank?

It hit Amazon only five days ago. It is dropping fast now at #15. It is the second lowest reviewed product in the entire top 100.

You can show up with your tea, your pinky hanging out, and your "you guys" lecturing, but anyone with even a little intelligence can see what you are doing. Curious, what was the best thing you liked when you read your copy?

Dude anything in the top 100 best sellers on Amazon for a week is fantastic sales. For any book, of any kind. As for how many copies is fantastic? I guess maybe around 20K in the first month or so? A NYT Bestseller is around 5,000 copies in a week by the way. Amazon top 25 five days in is unquestionably fantastic sales. And of course it doesn't have that many reviews - it just came out! Reviews happen after people receive the book and read it.

As for what I liked when I looked at it at Barnes & Noble, I liked the many sub-domains. Like Bluetspur, the mind flayer realm which messes with your memory. I liked Falkovnia with the endless war against the zombie hordes. I liked Carnival, which wanders the mists with stranger performers and a living sword. I liked Har'Akir with it's mummies and ancient egypt vibe. I liked Darkon with a fortress is frozen mid-explosion and rooms trying to put themselves back together. I liked the haunted train. I thought the House of Lament adventure looked like a pretty good low level adventure. I liked the spirit-channeling bard, and I thought the undead warlock subclass was much better than the prior undying one from Sword Coast (or wherever that original was from). I liked the loup garou. I liked that this entire book is more DMs tools to build your own domain or flesh out one of those domains rather than a written-in-stone railroad type book.

Thank you for the run down on what you liked. Sounds like it was good, and probably just fell short of earning your purchase.

I do think you are using Amazon sales rank to create a narrative that supports your view, and based your other comments, I question if any of this is in good faith. You said in another comment that this is essentially an echo chamber filled with people who have been kicked out and shunned elsewhere. I do not believe that.

The book has dropped down to #26 in their debut week. I have a hard time believing it will be more successful than any of the core books from Paizo, which you said when you suggested it never received this level of support. It is currently being outsold by a paperback of Rich Dad/Poor Dad and the Very Hungry Caterpillar. Other releases with similar dates are moving up the charts.

Second lowest rated was not referring to the total number of ratings, and there is no reason to talk down to me like I am an idiot. It has 3.7 stars right now, down from 3.9 two days ago, and it is now .1 from being the lowest rated product in the top 100. Originally it had 70 ratings, and now it has 84. It is not heading in a good direction. My guess is it stabilizes, and then creeps back up once more people who buy it know in advance what they are getting. And I don't mean this as a slight. There is obviously a market for this type of product. I differ from some of the others in that.

As a side note, the verified purchasers saying negative things about the book are likely NOT the same people you are disparaging here, so this is not just 25 people and their crazy beliefs.

D&D is the 800 lbs gorilla in the industry. I think of it like the entertainment industry movie releases. Blockbuster titles that flop still have big opening weekends compared to other films. But word of mouth brings the support to a grinding halt by the end of the weekend. That is a version of what is happening here.

3.7 is, by far, WOTC's lowest rated product on Amazon of any of their book releases. And while I completely agree with your assertion in your other post that Tasha's was well received (4.8 stars), you are incorrect on this one. The average consumer who is not active here, TBP, or on Reddit has been caught off-guard. They expected Gothic Horror and are getting something less. And yes, if WOTC continues to catch casuals off guard they will lose customers.

This will go down as the lowest rated main release when compared to anything that came before it.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 05:28:46 PM
All that said, if the line didn't grab you, it didn't grab you. A lot of people didn't like the weekend in hell thing (which is very black boxed set). Domains of Dread provided an approach that allowed for more steady campaigns with characters from Ravenloft (personally I liked the run the "Campaign in Hell", so I didn't use native characters as much. But DoD is pretty well regarded among many fans. Black Box for me is more about the tone, the mission statement, the way it just hit my like a shovel the first time I read it (and I kept wanting to re-read it). But its tone put some off.

Just to clarify, I loved the hell out of the first two modules - but I disliked the boxed set and the later modules. So I'd be mining the books for material to use in a game that doesn't have the Demi-plane of Dread. Looking at my collection, I've also got Darklords and the Gothic Earth Gazetteer. I found Darklords had some interesting ideas, but it was too tied into the Demi-plane of Dread concept to be very useful to me.

I've run Ravenloft and Ravenloft 2 multiple times - three or four times at least. I also ran a non-D&D based gothic horror campaign, using a variant of the Ars Magica system.

Quote from: jhkim on May 24, 2021, 03:01:58 PM


I'm familiar with the original boxed set and a number of the 2E modules including Feast of Goblyns, Web of Illusion, and Roots of Evil. The modules had very linear plotting and to some degree metaplotting, encouraging fixed storylines where the PCs are pawns of Ravenloft masters. Feast of Goblyns had some useful material to mine for, but I thought they were terrible - and especially so compared to the excellent original modules that didn't involve the demi-plane.

The Ravenloft modules were definitely products of their era (both the 2E era and the 90s trajectory towards increasing focus on story and a linear kind of plot). And one thing I have learned over the years is Ravenloft definitely didn't fit everyone's taste. Even people who might be its demographic, often rejected Ravenloft because they didn't like how it approached gothic and classic horror (they may have been on board with those things, but Ravenloft didn't land it right for them). With the modules, generally I grade them on how much content I was able to hack, how fun they were when you ran them as intended (even linear adventures can be fun if they are done well), what they added in terms of adventure concepts and ideas, and how much they shaped my overall GMing.

Feast of Goblyns is by far my favorite. It is a bit linear, but linear with a huge asterisk (there is a set of 'most likely to happen' events, but the adventure can go in any direction it needs to---and the GM is provided with enough locations and information on places to be flexible about that). I don't think it ever played out as a linear plot any time I ran it. Also it expands on the way Strahd was handled in the original module and uses that to introduce the idea of the wandering major encounter (which I have always called living adventure) where the NPCs are supposed to move freely and live. That greatly expands the adventure beyond its linear presentation (because Harkon Lukas, Ariel, Doctor Dominiani, etc all can plot in response to what the PCs do). I also liked the Created. It is some structure and a bit of railroading, but it is both fun when run as intended (provided the players are willing to buy in) and can be used more openly just taking the basic concepts. The carrionettes for example were really effective monsters. They inspired me when I approached how I handled Shadow Puppets in my ogre gate setting. However the module has one of the most egregious plot armor situations I've ever encountered. Night of the Walking Dead was a lot of fun as I recall. It has been a while but I always liked the domain of Souragne and loved the idea of a mystery that can culminate in a night of the living dead type situation. I am planning to run another 2E set of adventures in Ravenloft and this is one of the modules I am most looking forward to running again. Another cool adventure book was Book of Crypts. It was an adventure anthology. The adventures could be hit or miss. But I remember really liking the Dark Minstel, Blood in Moondale and Mordenheim Bride (very campy, even wonky but fun). There were some other good ones in there too (as well as a couple of stale ones). One that really stood out to me was Castles Forlorn. It was strange then and still remains pretty strange (I just repurchased it in PDF and have been skimming through it after not having run it in nearly 25 years----it is crazy and can be hard to track (the castle exists in different times, this produces a lot of strangeness). There is also a whole encounter book that is very cool (just a bunch of encounters you can throw at the party whenever----pretty nifty tool). The domain was presented pretty well too. It was always a bit hard to imagine Forlorn from the black box alone IMO, and this really opened it up in a way that worked at my table. There were some other good adventures too (often with Ravenloft module even if you didn't run the adventure as intended there was plenty of content to pilfer: for example Feast of Goblyns gives you two settlements in Kartakass, the Kartakan Inn, a castle, a bone cavern, and more.

For me with Ravenloft the black box, some of the key modules, and the van richten books really gave me what I was looking for. It was the first setting to click for me, and really the only published setting I liked running (I mostly like running my own settings, but Ravenloft has the right balance, especially in black box of giving me manageable starting points to build on and make it my own).

Quote from: jhkim on May 24, 2021, 06:11:51 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 05:28:46 PM
All that said, if the line didn't grab you, it didn't grab you. A lot of people didn't like the weekend in hell thing (which is very black boxed set). Domains of Dread provided an approach that allowed for more steady campaigns with characters from Ravenloft (personally I liked the run the "Campaign in Hell", so I didn't use native characters as much. But DoD is pretty well regarded among many fans. Black Box for me is more about the tone, the mission statement, the way it just hit my like a shovel the first time I read it (and I kept wanting to re-read it). But its tone put some off.

Just to clarify, I loved the hell out of the first two modules - but I disliked the boxed set and the later modules. So I'd be mining the books for material to use in a game that doesn't have the Demi-plane of Dread. Looking at my collection, I've also got Darklords and the Gothic Earth Gazetteer. I found Darklords had some interesting ideas, but it was too tied into the Demi-plane of Dread concept to be very useful to me.

I've run Ravenloft and Ravenloft 2 multiple times - three or four times at least. I also ran a non-D&D based gothic horror campaign, using a variant of the Ars Magica system.

That may point to a difference in taste. I came to Ravenloft by way of Knight of the Black Rose and the black box (I read Knight of the black rose and immediately bought black box and feast of Goblyns, then worked my way back to the original module from there: so I started more as a fan of the setting. So I read the black box and was like "this is great: I want more of this".

You might check out the Masque of the Red Death boxed set if you haven't already. The gazetteers were quite dry in my opinion, but the boxed set was pretty interesting in its initial presentation (they were good in terms of content, i just found them oddly dry compared to the boxed set---but that might just be my memory). I had some fun running that one from time to time. Also the gothic earth concept worked really well from what I remember.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 20, 2021, 10:01:54 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E10qDBiXIAE7HZQ?format=jpg&name=medium)

What #SJWs don't seem to understand is that genres are built on tropes and clichés. And while they should be subverted from time to time, they can't be without an established norm to work off of.

Then again 'subverting clichés' was never their objective here, was it?

Quote from: Thornhammer on May 20, 2021, 05:40:05 PM
"Magical settings bear no resemblance to real-world history."

Waaaaait wait wait wait just a damn second...

Oh you noticed too.

#SJW ideology is completely incoherent and contradictory, which is why they come off as insufferable hypocrites and get so vicious when challenged. No such thing as reverse-racism, yet we should all be anti-racist. Treating Blacks as a monolithic group is racist, yet we should refer to all non-Whites as #POC. We should follow CDC guidelines, unless we need to ignore them to avoid being mistaken for a 'deplorable'. This sort of thing is ubiquitous, and sometimes they'll even undermine their thesis in the very same breath they present it in. In fact they even do this here by listing a trope which takes inspiration from characters in fiction and film right after telling you to avoid doing so.

That said, the book is nowhere near as bad as folks are making it out to be here, and nitpicking the woke elements makes it seem far less usable than it actually is.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 06:18:33 PM

You might check out the Masque of the Red Death boxed set if you haven't already. The gazetteers were quite dry in my opinion, but the boxed set was pretty interesting in its initial presentation (they were good in terms of content, i just found them oddly dry compared to the boxed set---but that might just be my memory). I had some fun running that one from time to time. Also the gothic earth concept worked really well from what I remember.

I really liked Masque of the Red Death, as well. The main problem is the mechanics aren't great, but the setting works really well.

I wasn't terribly impressed with I6 Ravenloft, so I ended up skipping the 2e campaign setting. As a result, I came to the setting relatively late. But at the turn of the millennium, the Kargatane started publishing netbooks, which they made available on the web for free. These weren't small books; they were massive tomes. And they were just dripping with style. They showed me the potential of Ravenloft, and to a lesser degree Gothic Earth. So I began picking up the Ravenloft books, starting with the Van Richten Guides, which I generally quite liked, though I recognize their flaws.

Netbooks here:
http://www.kargatane.com/

Quote from: Pat on May 24, 2021, 07:25:52 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 06:18:33 PM

You might check out the Masque of the Red Death boxed set if you haven't already. The gazetteers were quite dry in my opinion, but the boxed set was pretty interesting in its initial presentation (they were good in terms of content, i just found them oddly dry compared to the boxed set---but that might just be my memory). I had some fun running that one from time to time. Also the gothic earth concept worked really well from what I remember.

I really liked Masque of the Red Death, as well. The main problem is the mechanics aren't great, but the setting works really well.

I wasn't terribly impressed with I6 Ravenloft, so I ended up skipping the 2e campaign setting. As a result, I came to the setting relatively late. But at the turn of the millennium, the Kargatane started publishing netbooks, which they made available on the web for free. These weren't small books; they were massive tomes. And they were just dripping with style. They showed me the potential of Ravenloft, and to a lesser degree Gothic Earth. So I began picking up the Ravenloft books, starting with the Van Richten Guides, which I generally quite liked, though I recognize their flaws.

Netbooks here:
http://www.kargatane.com/

I don't remember a whole lot about the Gothic Earth mechanics, but I do recall liking how they handled firearms for some reason (it just had a nice feel to me). Overall though I think it was more about setting than mechanics. I couldn't' honestly weigh in on them in terms of quality without reading and running it again (been a while).

I think with Ravenloft there are a few types of fans. I always liked the bare bones style of black box, which the Van Richten books helped illuminate in an interesting way. But mainly I liked to expand and create the bulk of the setting myself (my view is everyone's Ravenloft should be different---which I think fits the demiplane's nature). The kargatane stuff definitely is interesting and lots of people like it, for me that stuff developed the setting too much for my taste (the development wasn't itself bad, but it created too much lore for what I was looking for: I always looked at the entries in the box sets as the base and anything as as purely optional, with most of the blanks being filled in by me). DoD is probably a nice middle ground between those two extremes. The 3E books though really didn't fit my taste (and the WOTC 3E book was what got me to stop buying books just because WOTC released something new). A lot of people did like them. I found them a touch emo, and not as in touch with the classic horror charm (I think for me the moment I realized that line wasn't for me was when I saw a troupe of bards in the background in an image and I realized they were basically a 90s-00s band ported into ravenloft and given wooden instruments--complete with swooping bangs over one eye).

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 02:37:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 24, 2021, 03:25:45 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic.

Again, same thing happened with Tasha. Outrage marketing and scalpers combined. That is the diametric opposite of fantastic.

And, again, your theory is complete nonsense lacking even a shred of evidential support and in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theorist screaming about the end of the world on the street corner.

Tasha's DID do fantastic. All objective evidence of it's sales are that it sold through the roof. It's not outrage marketing - the huge overwhelming majority of people saw no outrage over it at all. Go look at Reddit or any other place with a huge number of views and comments about it, and you will see people loved that book. It's only tiny places like here, that you can get that theme of of "people dislike it" going.

Here are I think the main issues at play here:

1) People here believe "Get Woke Go Broke" is a universal truth; and
2) People here believe WOTC has "Gotten Woke"; therefore
3) People here think WOTC will "Go Broke" (whatever that term means in this context).

So when it seems like WOTC is just doing better and better every year (which they are) and it seems like their customers in general don't care about the "woke" issues here people are focused on (as in either way - they don't even notice those issues for the most part) it seems to cause some sort of cognitive dissonance in with a lot of people here.

WOTC's customer base is majority under 30. Their customer base is buying more and more WOTC material. And their customer base largely doesn't even focus on the issues people here focus on, either in a positive or negative way. MOST of their customers are just focusing on story and mechanical elements they think might be cool for their game. That's it. That's 90%+ of the feedback you can find online as a generalization. Which, frankly, was 90%+ of the feedback you could find for AD&D 1e and 2e when they were the current edition as well (though obviously not on the Internet for that era).

Tasha's and this Ravenloft book are not selling because of "woke" issues, either because of outrage or agreement with those issues. Those are not the things most people even notice about them. Most of the people buying those books just like fairly ordinary RPG content found in them, either story-based or mechanical-based or both.

But I know, that's not sexy it's just boring and normal. Which doesn't fly on the Internet - particularly here.

if you let the locals know we're all dying grognards they don't react real well

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 02:37:13 PM
And, again, your theory is complete nonsense lacking even a shred of evidential support and in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theorist screaming about the end of the world on the street corner.

If you'd actually payed attention to sales then you would not be so effortlessly putting your foot in your mouth trying to white knight for WOkeTC. again.

Keep struggling.

All that said. The other reason Tasha and probably now Wokenloft sell is as noted earlier in the thread. That Tasha had a new class and new class paths. And Wokenloft here also has new class paths. Not sure how many. But thats bound to attract a few extra sales just for those.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 06:18:33 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 24, 2021, 06:11:51 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 05:28:46 PM
All that said, if the line didn't grab you, it didn't grab you. A lot of people didn't like the weekend in hell thing (which is very black boxed set). Domains of Dread provided an approach that allowed for more steady campaigns with characters from Ravenloft (personally I liked the run the "Campaign in Hell", so I didn't use native characters as much. But DoD is pretty well regarded among many fans. Black Box for me is more about the tone, the mission statement, the way it just hit my like a shovel the first time I read it (and I kept wanting to re-read it). But its tone put some off.

Just to clarify, I loved the hell out of the first two modules - but I disliked the boxed set and the later modules. So I'd be mining the books for material to use in a game that doesn't have the Demi-plane of Dread. Looking at my collection, I've also got Darklords and the Gothic Earth Gazetteer. I found Darklords had some interesting ideas, but it was too tied into the Demi-plane of Dread concept to be very useful to me.

I've run Ravenloft and Ravenloft 2 multiple times - three or four times at least. I also ran a non-D&D based gothic horror campaign, using a variant of the Ars Magica system.

That may point to a difference in taste. I came to Ravenloft by way of Knight of the Black Rose and the black box (I read Knight of the black rose and immediately bought black box and feast of Goblyns, then worked my way back to the original module from there: so I started more as a fan of the setting. So I read the black box and was like "this is great: I want more of this".

You might check out the Masque of the Red Death boxed set if you haven't already. The gazetteers were quite dry in my opinion, but the boxed set was pretty interesting in its initial presentation (they were good in terms of content, i just found them oddly dry compared to the boxed set---but that might just be my memory). I had some fun running that one from time to time. Also the gothic earth concept worked really well from what I remember.

Jumping (back) on the Masque of the Red Death bandwagon. If you haven't seen it before, take a look - the 2e boxed set is available in pdf on DMsGuild, and the 5e sourcebook is as well.

With regard to sales numbers, a bad addition to a successful series usually sells well.  People buy it in the expectation that it will be like previous products.  You see the effect in the next one in the series, where people either give it a pass expecting it to be bad like the last one, or give it a critical look before making a purchase.  Decent sales numbers in this case does not provide evidence that people like the product.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 07:38:41 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 24, 2021, 07:25:52 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 24, 2021, 06:18:33 PM

You might check out the Masque of the Red Death boxed set if you haven't already. The gazetteers were quite dry in my opinion, but the boxed set was pretty interesting in its initial presentation (they were good in terms of content, i just found them oddly dry compared to the boxed set---but that might just be my memory). I had some fun running that one from time to time. Also the gothic earth concept worked really well from what I remember.

I really liked Masque of the Red Death, as well. The main problem is the mechanics aren't great, but the setting works really well.

I wasn't terribly impressed with I6 Ravenloft, so I ended up skipping the 2e campaign setting. As a result, I came to the setting relatively late. But at the turn of the millennium, the Kargatane started publishing netbooks, which they made available on the web for free. These weren't small books; they were massive tomes. And they were just dripping with style. They showed me the potential of Ravenloft, and to a lesser degree Gothic Earth. So I began picking up the Ravenloft books, starting with the Van Richten Guides, which I generally quite liked, though I recognize their flaws.

Netbooks here:
http://www.kargatane.com/

I don't remember a whole lot about the Gothic Earth mechanics, but I do recall liking how they handled firearms for some reason (it just had a nice feel to me). Overall though I think it was more about setting than mechanics. I couldn't' honestly weigh in on them in terms of quality without reading and running it again (been a while).

I think with Ravenloft there are a few types of fans. I always liked the bare bones style of black box, which the Van Richten books helped illuminate in an interesting way. But mainly I liked to expand and create the bulk of the setting myself (my view is everyone's Ravenloft should be different---which I think fits the demiplane's nature). The kargatane stuff definitely is interesting and lots of people like it, for me that stuff developed the setting too much for my taste (the development wasn't itself bad, but it created too much lore for what I was looking for: I always looked at the entries in the box sets as the base and anything as as purely optional, with most of the blanks being filled in by me). DoD is probably a nice middle ground between those two extremes. The 3E books though really didn't fit my taste (and the WOTC 3E book was what got me to stop buying books just because WOTC released something new). A lot of people did like them. I found them a touch emo, and not as in touch with the classic horror charm (I think for me the moment I realized that line wasn't for me was when I saw a troupe of bards in the background in an image and I realized they were basically a 90s-00s band ported into ravenloft and given wooden instruments--complete with swooping bangs over one eye).

Firearms weren't bad. I liked the broad categories. The most fundamental problem is AD&D's proficiency system doesn't work well in a skill-heavy game, combined with some weirdness with the magic.

I have a different approach. Since I started at the periphery and only later got the core rules, I don't consider even the core to be inviolate, much less than unofficial fan-produced Karagane netbooks. One of the most important elements of the gothic horror is mystery and suspense, which doesn't work well with a rigidly defined canon. Each campaign needs its own secrets. That's the virtue of the netbooks, beause they gives the DM more options to plunder to build a unique campaign. I seem them as treasure chests to steal from, not straight jackets.

Quote from: Omega on May 24, 2021, 09:35:22 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 02:37:13 PM
And, again, your theory is complete nonsense lacking even a shred of evidential support and in the realm of lunatic conspiracy theorist screaming about the end of the world on the street corner.

If you'd actually payed attention to sales then you would not be so effortlessly putting your foot in your mouth trying to white knight for WOkeTC. again.

Keep struggling.

I actually pay attention to sales. I quoted them to you directly. If you are seeing anything different then let's see it. Put up or shut the fuck up already, yah nutter.

Quote from: Mishihari on May 24, 2021, 10:14:22 PM
With regard to sales numbers, a bad addition to a successful series usually sells well.  People buy it in the expectation that it will be like previous products.  You see the effect in the next one in the series, where people either give it a pass expecting it to be bad like the last one, or give it a critical look before making a purchase.  Decent sales numbers in this case does not provide evidence that people like the product.

Here is a review compilation (https://www.enworld.org/threads/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-review-round-up-%E2%80%93-what-the-critics-say.680221/). Universally positive. And this is after Tasha's, which you guys also claimed was woke, and which also had and continues to have phenomenal sales.

Quote from: RandyB on May 24, 2021, 09:44:23 PM
Jumping (back) on the Masque of the Red Death bandwagon. If you haven't seen it before, take a look - the 2e boxed set is available in pdf on DMsGuild, and the 5e sourcebook is as well.

OK, that bandwagon is big enough to convince me. I picked up the 5e sourcebook from DMs Guild (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/295377/Masque-of-the-Red-Death-Players-Guide) in PDF.

On initial skimming through, I quite like the class split of Scion / Shepherd / Sleuth / Soldier / Stalwart - and the clash with the selection of Archetypes. It looks like a decent attempt to keep the flavor of classes rather than just giving up and having dull generics like D20 Modern or True20, which I saw as just wannabe-skill-based.

I like the setting - I tend to prefer historical settings for RPGs in general though not for D&D. I'm tempted to go earlier than 1890s, though, in keeping with what I think of as the classic gothics.

Quote from: Omega on May 24, 2021, 09:37:47 PM
All that said. The other reason Tasha and probably now Wokenloft sell is as noted earlier in the thread. That Tasha had a new class and new class paths. And Wokenloft here also has new class paths. Not sure how many. But thats bound to attract a few extra sales just for those.

Yes, someone had a brilliant idea with 5E.  Including about 5 player options in a splat book ensures it's not just the DMs buying the titles.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:54:25 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 24, 2021, 10:14:22 PM
With regard to sales numbers, a bad addition to a successful series usually sells well.  People buy it in the expectation that it will be like previous products.  You see the effect in the next one in the series, where people either give it a pass expecting it to be bad like the last one, or give it a critical look before making a purchase.  Decent sales numbers in this case does not provide evidence that people like the product.

Here is a review compilation (https://www.enworld.org/threads/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-review-round-up-%E2%80%93-what-the-critics-say.680221/). Universally positive. And this is after Tasha's, which you guys also claimed was woke, and which also had and continues to have phenomenal sales.

"You guys?"  I don't think I claimed anything here.  I was just pointing out an error.  And the most relevant predecessor would be the previous Ravenloft, not Tasha's, though yes, that has some relevance.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:54:25 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 24, 2021, 10:14:22 PM
With regard to sales numbers, a bad addition to a successful series usually sells well.  People buy it in the expectation that it will be like previous products.  You see the effect in the next one in the series, where people either give it a pass expecting it to be bad like the last one, or give it a critical look before making a purchase.  Decent sales numbers in this case does not provide evidence that people like the product.

Here is a review compilation (https://www.enworld.org/threads/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-review-round-up-%E2%80%93-what-the-critics-say.680221/). Universally positive. And this is after Tasha's, which you guys also claimed was woke, and which also had and continues to have phenomenal sales.

I am sure there is a market for it, and I doubt WOTC intentionally shoot itself in the foot over this stuff (maybe creative people on design teams would, but this is still a money making company). I think the question is how many people do they lose with this stuff, and how many do they bring in. I don't really know the answer, maybe there are enough young people coming into RPGs, who are on board with this kind of messaging, that they can jettison older fans and younger people who find the messaging heavy handed. How well or how badly it does, isn't something that especially concerns me. However I do think a lot of media companies have made strange decisions while trying to navigate the weird cultural climate we are in. I find it especially perplexing coming from the point of view where I want diversity in the hobby, I like seeing things like more writers from different backgrounds and generally like transgressive entertainment, but find there is something very victorian in the approach I am seeing (and not in a good 'victorian horror' type way). I also think there is a difference between being openminded and wanting to see diversity and veering into pandering, into just checking off the boxes on a list, etc. What I am seeing seems very heavy handed in this respect to me (it reminds me a bit of well intentioned 'very special episodes' when we were kids: where problems being addressed are a bit exaggerated and the tone is very much talking down to you like you are a child). But all that doesn't mean the content can't be good. There are all kinds of books and movies I like that have heavy handed political messages, political messages I don't agree with, that I still thoroughly enjoy because the art and the craft are there (300, Starship Troopers the novel, etc). I think a much bigger issue with the new stuff is they seem to be going completely against the foundations the line was built on: multi-genre horror instead of pure classic and gothic horror (again any old fan can tell you how much the text of the early Ravenloft made this extremely explicit), abandoning things like old movie tropes, nerfing horror (scaring characters rather than players), etc. Maybe this is stuff newer fans want (I don't know I am not a young person so I can't really say there). For me, the stuff I am seeing looks very unappealing overall. That is fine, that doesn't bother me if they want to make a version of Ravenloft I don't like. I do dislike the climate they are creating though, where any objection to it, sort of gets you placed in the bad/evil person camp (a bit like how Disney used its political messaging as shield when it put out Last Jedi---and I wasn't someone who universally disliked that movie: just found it a puzzling use of a middle film in a trilogy despite finding most of it pretty entertaining).

My 4 year old told me to put away my POD copy of the 2e Ravenloft boxed set because it was too scary.  I flipped through the new book on the weekend and I didn't see any art that would upset my 4 year old.  It failed the horror test so I put it back on the shelf.

Best thing is to vote with your wallet.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 10:31:05 AM
Best thing is to vote with your wallet.

people do and 5e keeps chuggin along, they hate this.

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:04:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 10:31:05 AM
Best thing is to vote with your wallet.

people do and 5e keeps chuggin along, they hate this.

I'm under no illusions that the 5e juggernaut won't stop because a few OSR guys are not buying them. But I'm going to support as many indie OSR devs as I can.

If nothing else - even just for my own sanity.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 12:10:15 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:04:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 10:31:05 AM
Best thing is to vote with your wallet.

people do and 5e keeps chuggin along, they hate this.

I'm under no illusions that the 5e juggernaut won't stop because a few OSR guys are not buying them. But I'm going to support as many indie OSR devs as I can.

If nothing else - even just for my own sanity.

a fair stance my good man

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 12:10:15 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:04:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 10:31:05 AM
Best thing is to vote with your wallet.

people do and 5e keeps chuggin along, they hate this.

I'm under no illusions that the 5e juggernaut won't stop because a few OSR guys are not buying them. But I'm going to support as many indie OSR devs as I can.

If nothing else - even just for my own sanity.

While I never adopted 5E, one thing that impressed me about it, and kept me watching from the sidelines (and also the reason I bought Curse of Strahd when it came out) was that 5th edition did seem genuinely designed to bring all the fan bases together. After years of people bickering over 4E and 3E, I appreciated the company realizing they could walk this line that would make the game palatable to the different camps (obviously not everyone jumped on board, myself included, but I know lots of old school gamers who happily play 5E; lots of 3rd edition fans who do, and lots of 4th edition fans who do). So when Ravenloft was announced, I thought it might be similar: there may be some changes to account for the present cultural climate, but I figured the game would also be designed to appeal to people who started on the original module, the black box, DoD, the S&SS version, etc. This version seems to reject a lot of things that many classic fans would want (speaking for myself, it definitely lost me when it shed the focus on classic and gothic horror). While I am not a big fan of making the whole setting islands of terror, that is at least a design decision I understand, and one that would lend itself well to the monster of the week style adventures Ravenloft excelled at...so those kinds of changes weren't the problems some of the more fundamental changes were for me. I certainly wouldn't have minded something that was intended to grab a more modern audience but didn't come off as hostile to the classic material.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:52:59 PMI actually pay attention to sales. I quoted them to you directly. If you are seeing anything different then let's see it. Put up or shut the fuck up already, yah nutter.

Tasha's is a no show in the Amazon top 100 whereas it's predecessors, Xanathar's and Volo's guides, are still top 10 sellers years after their release.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Role-Playing-War-Games/zgbs/books/270509

Yes, Van Richten's guide currently has the top spot. But for how long?

Quote from: mightybrain on May 25, 2021, 06:24:32 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:52:59 PMI actually pay attention to sales. I quoted them to you directly. If you are seeing anything different then let's see it. Put up or shut the fuck up already, yah nutter.

Tasha's is a no show in the Amazon top 100 whereas it's predecessors, Xanathar's and Volo's guides, are still top 10 sellers years after their release.

Yes, Van Richten's guide currently has the top spot. But for how long?

Do you have a link for that? I'm not seeing that when I check Amazon. What I see is:

Tasha's #316 in Books, #3 in D&D
Xanathar's #723 in Books, #6 in D&D
Volo's #1,365 in Books, #10 in D&D

Source: https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/16215/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_books

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2021, 06:32:17 PM

Do you have a link for that? I'm not seeing that when I check Amazon.

Sorry, I meant to post the link, then forgot.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Role-Playing-War-Games/zgbs/books/270509

The UK market obviously have different priorities.

Quote from: mightybrain on May 25, 2021, 06:34:43 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2021, 06:32:17 PM

Do you have a link for that? I'm not seeing that when I check Amazon.

Sorry, I meant to post the link, then forgot.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Role-Playing-War-Games/zgbs/books/270509

Ah, that's the UK site whereas I was looking on the US site. But on the UK site, the regular Tasha's book doesn't seem to be available at all. The only two offerings are a special deal of Tasha's plus six dice bags, or an alternate cover variant.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dungeons-Dragons-Tashas-Cauldron-Everything/dp/B08XB4S163/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dungeons-Dragons-Cauldron-Everything-Alternate/dp/0786967072/

Quote from: FingerRod on May 24, 2021, 05:33:03 PM

The book has dropped down to #26 in their debut week. I have a hard time believing it will be more successful than any of the core books from Paizo, which you said when you suggested it never received this level of support. It is currently being outsold by a paperback of Rich Dad/Poor Dad and the Very Hungry Caterpillar. Other releases with similar dates are moving up the charts.

Second lowest rated was not referring to the total number of ratings, and there is no reason to talk down to me like I am an idiot. It has 3.7 stars right now, down from 3.9 two days ago, and it is now .1 from being the lowest rated product in the top 100. Originally it had 70 ratings, and now it has 84. It is not heading in a good direction. My guess is it stabilizes, and then creeps back up once more people who buy it know in advance what they are getting. And I don't mean this as a slight. There is obviously a market for this type of product. I differ from some of the others in that.

As a side note, the verified purchasers saying negative things about the book are likely NOT the same people you are disparaging here, so this is not just 25 people and their crazy beliefs.

D&D is the 800 lbs gorilla in the industry. I think of it like the entertainment industry movie releases. Blockbuster titles that flop still have big opening weekends compared to other films. But word of mouth brings the support to a grinding halt by the end of the weekend. That is a version of what is happening here.

3.7 is, by far, WOTC's lowest rated product on Amazon of any of their book releases. And while I completely agree with your assertion in your other post that Tasha's was well received (4.8 stars), you are incorrect on this one. The average consumer who is not active here, TBP, or on Reddit has been caught off-guard. They expected Gothic Horror and are getting something less. And yes, if WOTC continues to catch casuals off guard they will lose customers.

This will go down as the lowest rated main release when compared to anything that came before it.

It's at #51 now, apparently. Interesting.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

I think that there's two different things regarding the vistani in Ravenloft.

First the Vistani are obviously a parallel with Romani Gypsies. This is not an "orcs are actually black people" stupidity, it's obvious both from the explicit presentation in the setting as well as in the source material that inspires the setting.

So, what was WRONG about how the Vistani are presented is that they are made out to be collectively sinister and evil. Mind you part of that may be because in the original Ravenloft module everything was pretty much evil about the place. But the fact remains.

That should be changed. The Vistani should be treated, like all other humans, as Neutral. Vistani can end up in the service of evil, like all humans can, can commit crimes or kill or cheat or steal, but these are not inherent characteristics of the entire race. They are, like most humans, mostly selfish, but will have some outliers toward nobility or villainy.

Some of the cultural details the guy points out are certainly true also.

On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

This is absolute bullshit.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:54:25 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 24, 2021, 10:14:22 PM
With regard to sales numbers, a bad addition to a successful series usually sells well.  People buy it in the expectation that it will be like previous products.  You see the effect in the next one in the series, where people either give it a pass expecting it to be bad like the last one, or give it a critical look before making a purchase.  Decent sales numbers in this case does not provide evidence that people like the product.

Here is a review compilation (https://www.enworld.org/threads/van-richtens-guide-to-ravenloft-review-round-up-%E2%80%93-what-the-critics-say.680221/). Universally positive. And this is after Tasha's, which you guys also claimed was woke, and which also had and continues to have phenomenal sales.

Wow, who would imagine that Polygon and Kotaku would think that an SJW propaganda product was the greatest game for D&D ever?

Do you talk about how all the reviews for the Last Jedi by Salon.com, Feminist Frequency, and Buzzfeed were super positive too?

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 11:08:14 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

I think that there's two different things regarding the vistani in Ravenloft.

First the Vistani are obviously a parallel with Romani Gypsies. This is not an "orcs are actually black people" stupidity, it's obvious both from the explicit presentation in the setting as well as in the source material that inspires the setting.

So, what was WRONG about how the Vistani are presented is that they are made out to be collectively sinister and evil. Mind you part of that may be because in the original Ravenloft module everything was pretty much evil about the place. But the fact remains.

That should be changed. The Vistani should be treated, like all other humans, as Neutral. Vistani can end up in the service of evil, like all humans can, can commit crimes or kill or cheat or steal, but these are not inherent characteristics of the entire race. They are, like most humans, mostly selfish, but will have some outliers toward nobility or villainy.

Some of the cultural details the guy points out are certainly true also.

On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

This is absolute bullshit.

I see.

I agree for the most part. However, I do think there were some potentially good ideas that were badly executed.

For example, the vistani could have adopted orphans, persons with disabilities, and teenage runaways. Such individuals are indoctrinated into the vistani culture, as you would expect. This is where the (false) stereotype of them kidnapping children comes from.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

*) Ravenloft tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely ("how do the people in this Island of Terror get supplies and food?"  "Uh,Dark Powers bring it in?"  "Isn't that just saying 'a Wizard did it'?"  "Do you want to play Dungeons & Vampires or not?!?!"  "Well, yeah, but we could do that back on the Sword Coast.").

*) It wants to be all multi-genre-yet-Gothic-horror, but it's stuck with the D&D ruleset.  So no modern day settings, or cyberpunk settings, or 19th Century Russian settings, or anywhere else you could slap Gothic decor and attitudes onto.  Imagine if Ravenloft supported, say, The Black Hole as an inspiration.  And the one time they tried to branch out ("Gothic Earth"), they couldn't decide how the heck it meshed with Ravenloft.

*) Even within its limited setting space, it still offers a ton of different domains, realms, clusters, islands, etc. each with its own "feel" and Darklord.  And then it proceeds to basically make the characters' actions meaningless.  You can't -actually- defeat the Darklord in question, because either the Darklord can't be permanently defeated or a new NPC will take their place (or both!).  It's the nihilism of Call of Cthulhu donkey punching the optimism of Dungeons & Dragons.

*) And while there's a lot of fun stuff written for it (really!), there's a lot of stuff that either doesn't work due to taste differences (Carnival) or because it's just kinda' dumb (the grell just hanging out in Death House is the most immediate example I can think of).

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 10:43:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

*) Ravenloft tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely ("how do the people in this Island of Terror get supplies and food?"  "Uh,Dark Powers bring it in?"  "Isn't that just saying 'a Wizard did it'?"  "Do you want to play Dungeons & Vampires or not?!?!"  "Well, yeah, but we could do that back on the Sword Coast.").

*) It wants to be all multi-genre-yet-Gothic-horror, but it's stuck with the D&D ruleset.  So no modern day settings, or cyberpunk settings, or 19th Century Russian settings, or anywhere else you could slap Gothic decor and attitudes onto.  Imagine if Ravenloft supported, say, The Black Hole as an inspiration.  And the one time they tried to branch out ("Gothic Earth"), they couldn't decide how the heck it meshed with Ravenloft.

*) Even within its limited setting space, it still offers a ton of different domains, realms, clusters, islands, etc. each with its own "feel" and Darklord.  And then it proceeds to basically make the characters' actions meaningless.  You can't -actually- defeat the Darklord in question, because either the Darklord can't be permanently defeated or a new NPC will take their place (or both!).  It's the nihilism of Call of Cthulhu donkey punching the optimism of Dungeons & Dragons.

*) And while there's a lot of fun stuff written for it (really!), there's a lot of stuff that either doesn't work due to taste differences (Carnival) or because it's just kinda' dumb (the grell just hanging out in Death House is the most immediate example I can think of).

I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Orrorsh got a sourcebook (here on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/p/119854818?iid=184675563749). I had a GM who ran it a lot for us. Really great setting. I never ran it myself (I was a Ravenloft GM), but this one got a lot of respect from me as a player, and I would have picked it up to run myself, but didn't want to have any of the mystery spoiled for me as our GM ran quote a number of campaigns.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 11:22:36 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Orrorsh got a sourcebook (here on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/p/119854818?iid=184675563749). I had a GM who ran it a lot for us. Really great setting. I never ran it myself (I was a Ravenloft GM), but this one got a lot of respect from me as a player, and I would have picked it up to run myself, but didn't want to have any of the mystery spoiled for me as our GM ran quote a number of campaigns.

I'll put on my pedantic hat for a second.

The cosms were the actual home world the invaders came from, the realms were their places on our earth.

So while the Nile Empire got a realm -and- cosm book (and was the only invader to do so, if I recall right), Orrorsh did not.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 11:22:36 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Orrorsh got a sourcebook (here on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/p/119854818?iid=184675563749). I had a GM who ran it a lot for us. Really great setting. I never ran it myself (I was a Ravenloft GM), but this one got a lot of respect from me as a player, and I would have picked it up to run myself, but didn't want to have any of the mystery spoiled for me as our GM ran quote a number of campaigns.

I'll put on my pedantic hat for a second.

The cosms were the actual home world the invaders came from, the realms were their places on our earth.

So while the Nile Empire got a realm -and- cosm book (and was the only invader to do so, if I recall right), Orrorsh did not.

Interesting. I didn't realize they had sourcebooks for the home world's as well.

On this topic, I think someone, possibly you, might have made this point already, but TORG really would be the setting vehicle for multi-genre horror (and the system seems like it can handle it too). It deals really well with disparities in tech, and a world populated entirely by horror realms would fit. Ravenloft tried to address technological disparity later and it was a little wonky (I always thought Ravenloft worked best just having a generally more advanced historical setting like 16th, 17th, or even 18th century). But I think DoD did do a good job of at least trying to make sense of the different cultural levels. The setting and system just didn't have the gears for that stuff like TORG did (I remember in one campaign for example someone bringing tech to a more primitive realm and it was interesting how it handled that).

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Interesting. I didn't realize they had sourcebooks for the home world's as well.

Just the Nile Empire, unfortunately.

There was a sourcebook on Ravagons that covered their home world, and there were books for monsters for Orrorsh, Aysle, and Tharkhold, as well as a Grimoire for Aysle, and weapon and vehicle sourcebooks covering all the settings, along with a few other hodge podge things (e.g. the World Below, the Berlin Citybook, etc.).  Point being, you could pick out bits and pieces for the different settings scattered across the books, but outside of Terra for the Nile Empire there wasn't really much direct/exclusive cosm support. 

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PMOn this topic, I think someone, possibly you, might have made this point already, but TORG really would be the setting vehicle for multi-genre horror (and the system seems like it can handle it too). It deals really well with disparities in tech, and a world populated entirely by horror realms would fit. Ravenloft tried to address technological disparity later and it was a little wonky (I always thought Ravenloft worked best just having a generally more advanced historical setting like 16th, 17th, or even 18th century). But I think DoD did do a good job of at least trying to make sense of the different cultural levels. The setting and system just didn't have the gears for that stuff like TORG did (I remember in one campaign for example someone bringing tech to a more primitive realm and it was interesting how it handled that).

I think what Ravenloft did that Torg didn't was better isolate the PCs.  In Torg, if things get too scary in Orrorsh, you can just leave.  "Puny mortal!  I will chase you to the ends of this world!"  "Will you chase me into this low magic, low spirit, high tech zone where you're powerless?"  "Well, no.  That'd just be silly."  In Ravenloft, if a Darklord doesn't want you to leave, you're not leaving (usually).  And even if you escape the Darklord, that just means you've moved into an area with a -different- Darklord to deal with.  In Torg, the High Lords could have impressive lieutenants, but they lacked that whole "prison jailor" vibe.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 02:20:17 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
Interesting. I didn't realize they had sourcebooks for the home world's as well.

Just the Nile Empire, unfortunately.

There was a sourcebook on Ravagons that covered their home world, and there were books for monsters for Orrorsh, Aysle, and Tharkhold, as well as a Grimoire for Aysle, and weapon and vehicle sourcebooks covering all the settings, along with a few other hodge podge things (e.g. the World Below, the Berlin Citybook, etc.).  Point being, you could pick out bits and pieces for the different settings scattered across the books, but outside of Terra for the Nile Empire there wasn't really much direct/exclusive cosm support. 

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 12:51:53 PMOn this topic, I think someone, possibly you, might have made this point already, but TORG really would be the setting vehicle for multi-genre horror (and the system seems like it can handle it too). It deals really well with disparities in tech, and a world populated entirely by horror realms would fit. Ravenloft tried to address technological disparity later and it was a little wonky (I always thought Ravenloft worked best just having a generally more advanced historical setting like 16th, 17th, or even 18th century). But I think DoD did do a good job of at least trying to make sense of the different cultural levels. The setting and system just didn't have the gears for that stuff like TORG did (I remember in one campaign for example someone bringing tech to a more primitive realm and it was interesting how it handled that).

I think what Ravenloft did that Torg didn't was better isolate the PCs.  In Torg, if things get too scary in Orrorsh, you can just leave.  "Puny mortal!  I will chase you to the ends of this world!"  "Will you chase me into this low magic, low spirit, high tech zone where you're powerless?"  "Well, no.  That'd just be silly."  In Ravenloft, if a Darklord doesn't want you to leave, you're not leaving (usually).  And even if you escape the Darklord, that just means you've moved into an area with a -different- Darklord to deal with.  In Torg, the High Lords could have impressive lieutenants, but they lacked that whole "prison jailor" vibe.

In Torg Eternity, Orrosh has a Corruption mechanic (which in some ways is like Dark Powers stuff from Ravenloft) and it does stick with you beyond the borders of Orrosh regardless of axioms. If you are Corrupted in Orrorsh (or by Orrosh effects anywhere else) they will plague you forever.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 10:43:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

*) Ravenloft tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely ("how do the people in this Island of Terror get supplies and food?"  "Uh,Dark Powers bring it in?"  "Isn't that just saying 'a Wizard did it'?"  "Do you want to play Dungeons & Vampires or not?!?!"  "Well, yeah, but we could do that back on the Sword Coast.").

*) It wants to be all multi-genre-yet-Gothic-horror, but it's stuck with the D&D ruleset.  So no modern day settings, or cyberpunk settings, or 19th Century Russian settings, or anywhere else you could slap Gothic decor and attitudes onto.  Imagine if Ravenloft supported, say, The Black Hole as an inspiration.  And the one time they tried to branch out ("Gothic Earth"), they couldn't decide how the heck it meshed with Ravenloft.

*) Even within its limited setting space, it still offers a ton of different domains, realms, clusters, islands, etc. each with its own "feel" and Darklord.  And then it proceeds to basically make the characters' actions meaningless.  You can't -actually- defeat the Darklord in question, because either the Darklord can't be permanently defeated or a new NPC will take their place (or both!).  It's the nihilism of Call of Cthulhu donkey punching the optimism of Dungeons & Dragons.

*) And while there's a lot of fun stuff written for it (really!), there's a lot of stuff that either doesn't work due to taste differences (Carnival) or because it's just kinda' dumb (the grell just hanging out in Death House is the most immediate example I can think of).

OK, I got curious after all the talk here, and I picked up a copy of the new Van Richten's Guide. (Score one for viral marketing.) I'm still reading through it, so I don't have a definite opinion.

As I've mentioned, I agree with Habitual Gamer and dislike the whole demi-plane concept of adventures being in a domain sealed off from the real world. If I use it, I'd be taking locations in it and dropping them into a normal setting rather than as sealed-off pockets.

That said, I think there are plenty of pieces that could be mined for interesting material.

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

No wonder the Dark Powers came for them - they fit perfectly into Ravenloft.

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

So that's how Poe's Law works.

(And if he's so smart, why doesn't he realize there's a spell that can heal him?  It's a second level spell for five different classes.  It's relatively common, even by Ravenloft standards.  It doesn't even cost anything in components.  It's like he -wants- to be unable to walk.)

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 05:47:45 PM

Quote from: Anselyn on May 14, 2021, 08:48:03 AM

Quote from: This Guy on May 13, 2021, 11:05:59 PM
saw a bit of art recently. Really going all in on that combat wheelchair gimmick arent they

This just in from the ENWorld review: "The famous occult detective Alanik Ray and adventuring physician Arthur Sedgwick are an example of how they're updated. While pursuing a serial killer Alanik fell from a roof, paralyzing his legs. Since his intellect has always been his greatest weapon, he still solves mysteries from a custom wheelchair, aided by Sedgwick, who he married."

Has it occurred to anyone that this is so OTT that they might just be taking the piss by this point?

So that's how Poe's Law works.

(And if he's so smart, why doesn't he realize there's a spell that can heal him?  It's a second level spell for five different classes.  It's relatively common, even by Ravenloft standards.  It doesn't even cost anything in components.  It's like he -wants- to be unable to walk.)

We need to shoe-in disability representation, dammit!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2021, 08:33:41 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 11:08:14 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

I think that there's two different things regarding the vistani in Ravenloft.

First the Vistani are obviously a parallel with Romani Gypsies. This is not an "orcs are actually black people" stupidity, it's obvious both from the explicit presentation in the setting as well as in the source material that inspires the setting.

So, what was WRONG about how the Vistani are presented is that they are made out to be collectively sinister and evil. Mind you part of that may be because in the original Ravenloft module everything was pretty much evil about the place. But the fact remains.

That should be changed. The Vistani should be treated, like all other humans, as Neutral. Vistani can end up in the service of evil, like all humans can, can commit crimes or kill or cheat or steal, but these are not inherent characteristics of the entire race. They are, like most humans, mostly selfish, but will have some outliers toward nobility or villainy.

Some of the cultural details the guy points out are certainly true also.

On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

This is absolute bullshit.

I see.

I agree for the most part. However, I do think there were some potentially good ideas that were badly executed.

For example, the vistani could have adopted orphans, persons with disabilities, and teenage runaways. Such individuals are indoctrinated into the vistani culture, as you would expect. This is where the (false) stereotype of them kidnapping children comes from.

Well yeah. But more importantly, the historical discrimination that Gypsies had experienced was something that became a defining factor in their culture and history.  Claiming that the presentation of the Vistani is "inaccurate" and then turning around and having the Vistani be Beloved By All and cheered whenever they arrive at a town is actually WAY MORE INACCURATE than the bad-guy vistani of the original Ravenloft.

It's erasure. Its like if they did a dread realm set in a historical parallel of 1930s Germany, would these assholes have had Stormtroopers hugging Jews on the street?!

I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:44:01 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

Remove the racial identity, and now I'm thinking of the Vistani as being traveling carnies. It's not really an improvment.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:44:01 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

The big difference is, except for a few areas (e.g. NYC), the US has no significant Roma populations that haven't been assimilated, and they've had little or no effect on influence on Hollywood or other popular depictions (King of the Gypsies is an exception). So the result is a romanticized ideal, instead of anything personal.

Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:14:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.

Uh... what? Why the fuck would the PCs be allowed to contact the metaphysical Dark Powers?

I'm not sure you understand what I meant. I mean the 'powers checks' where the PCs could gradually become corrupted by their actions.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 11:08:14 PM
On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

So having the book now, I can check on this. The Vistani are covered on pages 176-177.

Claim: the Vistani who helped Strahd were fake because real Vistani can't be evil

QuoteMadame Eva. A controversial figure among the Vistani, Madame Eva made a bargain with the vampire Count Strahd von Zarovich. As a result, the evils that lurk in Barovia avoid Vistani. However, Madame Eva and her followers occasionally ally with the infamous count, giving them a sinister reputation. Madame Eva and her unique band of Vistani are detailed in the adventure Curse of Strahd.

Claim: the Vistani adopt random people as family and ignore blood and culture

QuoteMember of Vistani bands understand the disorienting, dangerous nature of the Mists better than anyone. Vistani caravans sometimes take pity on those who ask them for help, especially strangers from unfamiliar lands hopelessly searching for home, allowing such wayfarers to travel with them as far as the next settlement. In rare cases, a clan might even adopt a gracious, helpful traveller.

Characters who befriend or do right by members of a Vistani band might be allowed to take shelter or travel with a caravan for a time. But Vistani travellers quickly share tales of danger and of those who've wronged them with other caravans, and those who slight one Vistani often meet others who share a grudge against them.

While there is some connection between the claims and the text, the specifics seem like hyperbole at best.

That makes me wonder if different domains might treat vistani very differently. The isolated pseudo-European rural villages might be xenophobic (while hypocrisy making dealings anyway), whereas the more industrialized Americanesque towns and cities might be largely indifferent (unless they need to buy something).

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:21:29 PM

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:14:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.

Uh... what? Why the fuck would the PCs be allowed to contact the metaphysical Dark Powers?

I'm not sure you understand what I meant. I mean the 'powers checks' where the PCs could gradually become corrupted by their actions.

Again, I may have read that wrong. Edit: I may be thinking of them making a Warlock subclass which draws its power from the Dark Powers somehow.

And yes, I misunderstood; they have a variation on the Powers Check. I can't quote it since I don't have my copy in front of me, though.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

• A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
• Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
• An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
• A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
• A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:53:58 PM

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

• A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
• Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
• An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
• A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
• A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

I don't mind this, it has the potential for good roleplaying.

QuoteEven the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier.

As European I would say - well Gypsy culture... is problematic to use SJW terms, and this sort of go both ways.
I think original Hugo novel, not Disney or Musical variants were sort of better in giving more nuanced vision of those.

QuoteEven the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

I mean... they are underdogs tbh, even if you want to have them as a villains - they will be villainous underdogs.

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:53:58 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

• A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
• Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
• An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
• A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
• A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

Wow. Just wow. That's SO not the same thing.

One thing that gives me a slight sliver of hope is that Ravensoft has been getting less than glowing reviews from 'some' of the youtubers that you'd least suspect.

Of course, all the big youtubers are licking the arse of WoTC but that's to be expected.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 07:45:48 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 27, 2021, 07:44:01 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:40:52 PM
I'm going to stay out of the main discussion, but it's probably worth mentioning that the Gypsy stereotype in the US is very different from the stereotype in Europe. In the US, it lacks most of the negative qualities. Gypsies are magical and wondrous and fun and mysterious and alluring. Which can tend to restrict them to certain roles and limit their development as fully-realized characters, but it's generally a positive image. Even the criminal elements are generally along the lines of charming rogues, rather than dirty thieves. In the Europe, with a real, recent, and remembered history of discrimination, it's quite a bit nastier. The Vistani are almost entirely derived from the American stereotypes.

That's an interesting distinction. I usually think of American media depictions of gypsies. Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame pops right into my head. Even the sinister ones have an aspect of being the underdog, like the gypsies in Stephen King's Thinner.

Remove the racial identity, and now I'm thinking of the Vistani as being traveling carnies. It's not really an improvment.

   This made me actually burst into laughter.   I have to agree, travelling carnies are the sketchiest bunch I think I have ever laid eyes on.  The creep factor of them at a state fair is only out done by understanding why there are so many cops posted at the restrooms of a state fair (here I assume the situation is similar, since many states use the same carnies to run their fairs).

Quote from: oggsmash on May 28, 2021, 08:12:06 AM
This made me actually burst into laughter.   I have to agree, travelling carnies are the sketchiest bunch I think I have ever laid eyes on.  The creep factor of them at a state fair is only out done by understanding why there are so many cops posted at the restrooms of a state fair (here I assume the situation is similar, since many states use the same carnies to run their fairs).

Now imagine carnies in a world where, e.g., lycanthropy exists. The thing about Vistani being insular is that if a band of colorfully-dressed strangers pulls up out of town, you have no idea if they're actual definitely-not-Roma-analogue heroic Vistani, or monsters wearing their skins.

And you can, I think, get into some really interesting and proper horror background stuff here.  Imagine a campaign against a leveled, intelligent werewolf with just Disguise Self and a large pack of confederates, who weaponized the openness and tolerance of communities by coming into them in the guise of a stranger and exploiting that hospitality, not just to get food and turn townsfolk, but specifically so that when the PCs came up hunting him, the townsfolk would slam doors in the PC's faces, as the second, third, and forth groups of "heroes" were all more werewolves who showed up, politely bought out any silver that the town had, and spent several nights being 'on watch' and quietly removing or turning any unusually-capable villagers before being made and fleeing into the night?

And, in a world where Asshole Werewolf exists, and has specifically used the trick of impersonating a Vistani caravan to get a large strike force of wolves near a town before having them all turn and attack, specifically because he resents the Vistani for being able to leave and finds them getting lynched by angry townsfolk hilarious, how many times does a Vistani caravan need to get turned away from a town with violence before some of the Vistani do start resorting to thievery to feed themselves and keep their wagons repaired?

You could tell an entire goddamn campaign about one goddamn werewolf that would challenge a group of PCs to actually fight against bigotry and stereotypes.  But in order to do that, you'd need to acknowledge that they exist, how they can start and get amplified, and how they can be, not just random Structural things emanating from anonymous Society, but how hatred of a group can come from a specific origin after being called up and amplified for a specific reason, and then can live long after that unless a lot of people work really hard and really selflessly to make things better.

One thing worth mentioning about the Vistani in old Ravenloft is the whole thing about them being viewed with suspicion, was not an endorsement of viewing vagabonds with suspicion. It was a product of the world, which was inhabited by superstitious people who could commit evil out of fear (the same people who might exile, or even burn someone because they are an elf). They even played into this with Van Richten, the setting's greatest hero, who had a clear flaw in his deep prejudice towards Vistani (based around his background and how his son became a vampire if I recall). It was often handled in a campy way, but it came out of this idea that fear and prejudice were connected in the setting.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 28, 2021, 01:08:40 PM
One thing worth mentioning about the Vistani in old Ravenloft is the whole thing about them being viewed with suspicion, was not an endorsement of viewing vagabonds with suspicion. It was a product of the world, which was inhabited by superstitious people who could commit evil out of fear (the same people who might exile, or even burn someone because they are an elf). They even played into this with Van Richten, the setting's greatest hero, who had a clear flaw in his deep prejudice towards Vistani (based around his background and how his son became a vampire if I recall). It was often handled in a campy way, but it came out of this idea that fear and prejudice were connected in the setting.

   I think that part of the issue is that for many of the people in charge, prejudice is not just a flaw or a sin--it is The Unforgivable Sin, which cannot be excused or portrayed as anything but the blackest evil.

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:23:15 PM
While there is some connection between the claims and the text, the specifics seem like hyperbole at best.

"Quiet you!  Can't you see I'm protecting my games!"

I admit, I haven't done a fine-toothed witch hunt for wrong think text, but it really reminds me of classical vistani presentations.  Except if they were previously "morally gray, with a shade of black" now they're "morally gray, with a shade of white".  Maybe.  Either way, not enough to be worth clutching pearls over.  I remember worse ethnic sensitivity nonsense in the Nightmare Lands sourcebox, and that was pre-3ed, pre-internet, pre-constant universal outrage over everything.   

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 28, 2021, 01:08:40 PM
One thing worth mentioning about the Vistani in old Ravenloft is the whole thing about them being viewed with suspicion, was not an endorsement of viewing vagabonds with suspicion. It was a product of the world, which was inhabited by superstitious people who could commit evil out of fear (the same people who might exile, or even burn someone because they are an elf). They even played into this with Van Richten, the setting's greatest hero, who had a clear flaw in his deep prejudice towards Vistani (based around his background and how his son became a vampire if I recall). It was often handled in a campy way, but it came out of this idea that fear and prejudice were connected in the setting.

So, comparing the original boxed set (1990 "Realms of Terror") and the new Van Richten's guide. I don't see anything explicit about anti-Vistani prejudice in the original book, either in the Gypsies section or in the write up for Van Richten. This is the Van Richten entry:

QuoteBackground: Originally a native of Darkon, Van Richten was a doctor who healed without magic. He had little skill as a surgeon, relying more on herbal medicines. Gypsies kidnapped his son, and took the boy out of Darkon. Van Richten pursued them, committing everything to regain his son. (Crossing the border did not reveal any "true past" to Van Richten. Darkon only affects the memories of characters who are born elsewhere.)

Eventually Van Richten caught up with his son--what remained of him. The gypsies had sold the boy to a vampire in Richemulot, who wanted a young, pure companion. Newly undead, the boy begged Van Richten to destroy him. He told his father how to accomplish the deed, and Van Richten released his son from torment.

Current Sketch: Since his son's destruction, Van Richten has hunted vampires and other supernatural creatures throughout Ravenloft. He has never attempted to destroy the lord of any domain. When not actively in pursuit of a creature, he runs an "Herbalist's Shop" in Mordentshire.

Dr. Van Richten is wise and well-educated, and know much about supernatural lore. He will not allow an innocent person to be hurt, perhaps even if it means sacrificing himself. Fortunately, he has not faced this fatal decision to date.

It doesn't mention the flaw of prejudice you mention. Perhaps it is mentioned as a flaw in one of the other books? I also don't see anything in the Gypsies section about prejudice against them.

QuoteGypsies

The gypsies of Ravenloft--or Vistani as they call themselves--are a mysterious people. They wander the lands and travel the Mists, independent of the bonds which shackle lords to their domains and natives to their dreary, oppressed existence. In some ways they are the most power characters in Ravenloft, because in spirit, the gypsies are free.
...
Gypsies have little to fear from the rules of Ravenloft's domains. Most lords tolerate them, and many are in awe of their powers. The gypsies' ability to travel the Mists and foretell the future commands great respect. Some lords forge agreements with the tribes. Count Strahd von Zarovich, for example, forged an alliance with the gypsy Madame Eva many years ago. He gave her a potion of immunity to his choking fog. Today, nearly all Vistani know this formula. They charge travellers for a drink of this potion and then ferry their customers across Barovia. In return for the Count's cooperation, Vistani inform Strahd of the activities in other domains, and act as spies for him in his own.
...
When Gypsies Tell Lies

Every gypsy in Ravenloft has the potential to tell the future accurately. Not every gypsy can, however. Vistani are natural con artists, and Ravenloft is full of fake seers who eagerly lighten the purses of gullible travelers.

Now, it's certainly possible in the original Ravenloft to have a story about anti-gypsy prejudice -- but that's going beyond what's written in the book. It seems just as possible to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice in the 5e version.

Greetings!

I think it is great to have Gypsies being actually different culturally, racially, and perhaps also religiously from the main, dominant culture. Having many of them be of dubious morality and ethics, often choosing to be Rogues or some kind of Charlatan adds lots of great flavour, tension, and potential drama. Stereotypes are *GOOD*. So is having hatred, racism, elitism, prejudice, as well as suffering and oppression in the campaign!

WTF, campaigns aren't supposed to be rainbow barney fests!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 02:22:35 PM
[So, comparing the original boxed set (1990 "Realms of Terror") and the new Van Richten's guide. I don't see anything explicit about anti-Vistani prejudice in the original book, either in the Gypsies section or in the write up for Van Richten. This is the Van Richten entry:

QuoteBackground: Originally a native of Darkon, Van Richten was a doctor who healed without magic. He had little skill as a surgeon, relying more on herbal medicines. Gypsies kidnapped his son, and took the boy out of Darkon. Van Richten pursued them, committing everything to regain his son. (Crossing the border did not reveal any "true past" to Van Richten. Darkon only affects the memories of characters who are born elsewhere.)

Eventually Van Richten caught up with his son--what remained of him. The gypsies had sold the boy to a vampire in Richemulot, who wanted a young, pure companion. Newly undead, the boy begged Van Richten to destroy him. He told his father how to accomplish the deed, and Van Richten released his son from torment.

Current Sketch: Since his son's destruction, Van Richten has hunted vampires and other supernatural creatures throughout Ravenloft. He has never attempted to destroy the lord of any domain. When not actively in pursuit of a creature, he runs an "Herbalist's Shop" in Mordentshire.

Dr. Van Richten is wise and well-educated, and know much about supernatural lore. He will not allow an innocent person to be hurt, perhaps even if it means sacrificing himself. Fortunately, he has not faced this fatal decision to date.

It doesn't mention the flaw of prejudice you mention. Perhaps it is mentioned as a flaw in one of the other books? I also don't see anything in the Gypsies section about prejudice against them. 

  It shows up in many of the Van Richten's Guides, starting with Ghosts, IIRC.

Quote
Now, it's certainly possible in the original Ravenloft to have a story about anti-gypsy prejudice -- but that's going beyond what's written in the book. It seems just as possible to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice in the 5e version.

   Hostility to the Vistani is called out in specific cases--Barovia's villagers, and Invidia's lord--but the general impression I have of the old setting is that while it's widespread, it's not universal.

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 02:22:35 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 28, 2021, 01:08:40 PM
One thing worth mentioning about the Vistani in old Ravenloft is the whole thing about them being viewed with suspicion, was not an endorsement of viewing vagabonds with suspicion. It was a product of the world, which was inhabited by superstitious people who could commit evil out of fear (the same people who might exile, or even burn someone because they are an elf). They even played into this with Van Richten, the setting's greatest hero, who had a clear flaw in his deep prejudice towards Vistani (based around his background and how his son became a vampire if I recall). It was often handled in a campy way, but it came out of this idea that fear and prejudice were connected in the setting.

So, comparing the original boxed set (1990 "Realms of Terror") and the new Van Richten's guide. I don't see anything explicit about anti-Vistani prejudice in the original book, either in the Gypsies section or in the write up for Van Richten. This is the Van Richten entry:

QuoteBackground: Originally a native of Darkon, Van Richten was a doctor who healed without magic. He had little skill as a surgeon, relying more on herbal medicines. Gypsies kidnapped his son, and took the boy out of Darkon. Van Richten pursued them, committing everything to regain his son. (Crossing the border did not reveal any "true past" to Van Richten. Darkon only affects the memories of characters who are born elsewhere.)

Eventually Van Richten caught up with his son--what remained of him. The gypsies had sold the boy to a vampire in Richemulot, who wanted a young, pure companion. Newly undead, the boy begged Van Richten to destroy him. He told his father how to accomplish the deed, and Van Richten released his son from torment.

Current Sketch: Since his son's destruction, Van Richten has hunted vampires and other supernatural creatures throughout Ravenloft. He has never attempted to destroy the lord of any domain. When not actively in pursuit of a creature, he runs an "Herbalist's Shop" in Mordentshire.

Dr. Van Richten is wise and well-educated, and know much about supernatural lore. He will not allow an innocent person to be hurt, perhaps even if it means sacrificing himself. Fortunately, he has not faced this fatal decision to date.

It doesn't mention the flaw of prejudice you mention. Perhaps it is mentioned as a flaw in one of the other books? I also don't see anything in the Gypsies section about prejudice against them.

QuoteGypsies

The gypsies of Ravenloft--or Vistani as they call themselves--are a mysterious people. They wander the lands and travel the Mists, independent of the bonds which shackle lords to their domains and natives to their dreary, oppressed existence. In some ways they are the most power characters in Ravenloft, because in spirit, the gypsies are free.
...
Gypsies have little to fear from the rules of Ravenloft's domains. Most lords tolerate them, and many are in awe of their powers. The gypsies' ability to travel the Mists and foretell the future commands great respect. Some lords forge agreements with the tribes. Count Strahd von Zarovich, for example, forged an alliance with the gypsy Madame Eva many years ago. He gave her a potion of immunity to his choking fog. Today, nearly all Vistani know this formula. They charge travellers for a drink of this potion and then ferry their customers across Barovia. In return for the Count's cooperation, Vistani inform Strahd of the activities in other domains, and act as spies for him in his own.
...
When Gypsies Tell Lies

Every gypsy in Ravenloft has the potential to tell the future accurately. Not every gypsy can, however. Vistani are natural con artists, and Ravenloft is full of fake seers who eagerly lighten the purses of gullible travelers.

Now, it's certainly possible in the original Ravenloft to have a story about anti-gypsy prejudice -- but that's going beyond what's written in the book. It seems just as possible to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice in the 5e version.

It was something they expanded on a number of times in the Van Richten books. It was pretty obvious when you read them. For example one of the more notable instances was when Van Richten was talking about a Vistani friend of his, and he explained that he 'doesn't judge an individual by the failing of there entire race'. This was clearly presented as a character flaw, in a humorous way, to the point that he inverts what in the 90s was accepted wisdom on judging groups (i.e. you don't judge groups by the failings of individuals within that group).

In terms of prejudice against Vistani themselves, I don' think that was a major focus of the original setting. If anything the Vistani were more prejudiced towards non-Vistani (Georgios)-- see attached.

But it did come up, as it did in the Van Richten books. Also in the novels, and I am sure elsewhere. My point was simply, when this sort of thing came up it wasn't an endorsement by the writers of gypsy prejudice, it was a reflection of it being a setting where people are cautious, cagey, and prone to xenophobia. You see this in the section on demihumans for example where it says in extreme cases a demihuman could spur a lynchmob. If you read the setting book it is pretty clear this is just due to the nature of the world: it is a shortcoming of the people who inhabit it due to the horrors of the world that surround them. It isn't an argument for lynch mobs being a good thing.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 28, 2021, 02:52:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 02:22:35 PM
Now, it's certainly possible in the original Ravenloft to have a story about anti-gypsy prejudice -- but that's going beyond what's written in the book. It seems just as possible to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice in the 5e version.

   Hostility to the Vistani is called out in specific cases--Barovia's villagers, and Invidia's lord--but the general impression I have of the old setting is that while it's widespread, it's not universal.

OK, I see that now in the Barovia section.

QuoteStrahd allows the gypsies great freedom in Barovia. They offer him information about Barovia and the rest of the demiplane. In exchange, he grants them safety within Barovia. Anyone who encounters a gypsy in this domain can be sure that Strahd will know of the meeting within a day.

The gypsies maintain a semi-permanent camp at the base of Castle Ravenloft, near a pool formed in the River Ivlis. Most Barovians consider them to be amoral thieves, but still pay to watch their shows and conduct trade with them. Gypsies are not allowed to loiter within town limits.

But I'm not sure this hostility can be called prejudice, since it says very clearly that the Vistani there are all spies for Strahd. If anything, the Barovians seem remarkably accepting in not regarding the Vistani as enemies.

And yes, I see that Madame Aderre hates gypsies, but that's a specific hatred based on the gypsies own prejudice against half-bloods that caused them to sell her mother into slavery as a child. i.e. It doesn't reflect a general prejudice non-Vistani have against the Vistani. It illustrates further what Brendan said that the emphasis was more on the Vistani's own prejudice.

I believe that there is material in some of the other books - but I feel like that's comparing apples to oranges if judging the new Van Richten's guide. Given that the original book has nothing about general anti-Vistani prejudice, it seems wrong to claim that 5e is fatally flawed for not depicting anti-Vistani prejudice.

It seems to me that the big difference isn't about prejudice. It's that in the original, the Vistani were almost all working for Strahd - and in the 5e version, only one Vistani band made a deal with Strahd, and it made her a controversial figure with the others.

In practice, it seems hard to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice when they're all spying for Strahd, as the Realm of Terror book describes. When I ran the Ravenloft module again two years ago, my son made a PC who was a sorcerer of Vistani birth. As I ran things, the deal between Strahd and Madame Eva was a strictly local deal, and it was more of a non-aggression treaty rather than them being spies for him. Hence, my son's PC hadn't heard of Strahd - and Eva did not inform to Strahd about the PCs after meeting them.

Greetings!

All of this handwringing about the Vistani in Ravenloft books is absolutely ridiculous. The Vistani are a fantasy race group in the game, with a primary perception basis of them from medieval Europe, and more importantly, as a fantasy horror element inspired from Hammer Horror films and early horror/Gothic literature.

Why is this such a bad thing? Who cares that some people want to snivel and sob in rage about how the Vistani are depicted?

We used to hate German Nazis. The Germans committed terrible atrocities against many people during World War II. What the Germans did then was *real*. People were absolutely justified in hating the Germans then, fighting them, and killing them.

Just like we roasted them by firebombing every German city into smoking, burning ash. Just like we slaughtered hundreds of thousands of German soldiers with tanks, artillery, fighter bombers strafing them, and in close, hand-to-hand combat. That was then, and a part of real history, with real people, real fire, and real blood.

Now, when I get together with some buddies and smoke cigars, drinking some beer, and playing Axis & Allies, when my American forces roll into France and Germany, am I actually killing real Nazis?

After I roll my tank armies into Germany, and bring their nation to defeat, should I look at any German people I know now, and think..."Hmmm...I need to get the flamethrower started up. I've got work to do!"

My point is the game doesn't have any connection to the HERE AND NOW.

These SJW's and whoever are crying about Vistani are all fucking nuts. A bunch of Marxist cucks and crybabies and wanna-be fucking tyrants.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 28, 2021, 02:52:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 02:22:35 PM
Now, it's certainly possible in the original Ravenloft to have a story about anti-gypsy prejudice -- but that's going beyond what's written in the book. It seems just as possible to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice in the 5e version.

   Hostility to the Vistani is called out in specific cases--Barovia's villagers, and Invidia's lord--but the general impression I have of the old setting is that while it's widespread, it's not universal.

OK, I see that now in the Barovia section.

QuoteStrahd allows the gypsies great freedom in Barovia. They offer him information about Barovia and the rest of the demiplane. In exchange, he grants them safety within Barovia. Anyone who encounters a gypsy in this domain can be sure that Strahd will know of the meeting within a day.

The gypsies maintain a semi-permanent camp at the base of Castle Ravenloft, near a pool formed in the River Ivlis. Most Barovians consider them to be amoral thieves, but still pay to watch their shows and conduct trade with them. Gypsies are not allowed to loiter within town limits.

But I'm not sure this hostility can be called prejudice, since it says very clearly that the Vistani there are all spies for Strahd. If anything, the Barovians seem remarkably accepting in not regarding the Vistani as enemies.

And yes, I see that Madame Aderre hates gypsies, but that's a specific hatred based on the gypsies own prejudice against half-bloods that caused them to sell her mother into slavery as a child. i.e. It doesn't reflect a general prejudice non-Vistani have against the Vistani. It illustrates further what Brendan said that the emphasis was more on the Vistani's own prejudice.

I believe that there is material in some of the other books - but I feel like that's comparing apples to oranges if judging the new Van Richten's guide. Given that the original book has nothing about general anti-Vistani prejudice, it seems wrong to claim that 5e is fatally flawed for not depicting anti-Vistani prejudice.

It seems to me that the big difference isn't about prejudice. It's that in the original, the Vistani were almost all working for Strahd - and in the 5e version, only one Vistani band made a deal with Strahd, and it made her a controversial figure with the others.

In practice, it seems hard to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice when they're all spying for Strahd, as the Realm of Terror book describes. When I ran the Ravenloft module again two years ago, my son made a PC who was a sorcerer of Vistani birth. As I ran things, the deal between Strahd and Madame Eva was a strictly local deal, and it was more of a non-aggression treaty rather than them being spies for him. Hence, my son's PC hadn't heard of Strahd - and Eva did not inform to Strahd about the PCs after meeting them.

Greetings!

Why is it bad to have characters hate Vistani in a fantasy game? Or people or characters hating Orcs, or Elves, or Ratmen?

Why is it some deep need for everyone to love everyone? Reality isn't a hippy, rainbow barney love-fest, and neither is the fantasy game.

Why would anyone want to play in a silly, boring game world where everyone is like rainbow barney?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 28, 2021, 02:52:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 02:22:35 PM
Now, it's certainly possible in the original Ravenloft to have a story about anti-gypsy prejudice -- but that's going beyond what's written in the book. It seems just as possible to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice in the 5e version.

   Hostility to the Vistani is called out in specific cases--Barovia's villagers, and Invidia's lord--but the general impression I have of the old setting is that while it's widespread, it's not universal.

OK, I see that now in the Barovia section.

QuoteStrahd allows the gypsies great freedom in Barovia. They offer him information about Barovia and the rest of the demiplane. In exchange, he grants them safety within Barovia. Anyone who encounters a gypsy in this domain can be sure that Strahd will know of the meeting within a day.

The gypsies maintain a semi-permanent camp at the base of Castle Ravenloft, near a pool formed in the River Ivlis. Most Barovians consider them to be amoral thieves, but still pay to watch their shows and conduct trade with them. Gypsies are not allowed to loiter within town limits.

But I'm not sure this hostility can be called prejudice, since it says very clearly that the Vistani there are all spies for Strahd. If anything, the Barovians seem remarkably accepting in not regarding the Vistani as enemies.

And yes, I see that Madame Aderre hates gypsies, but that's a specific hatred based on the gypsies own prejudice against half-bloods that caused them to sell her mother into slavery as a child. i.e. It doesn't reflect a general prejudice non-Vistani have against the Vistani. It illustrates further what Brendan said that the emphasis was more on the Vistani's own prejudice.

I believe that there is material in some of the other books - but I feel like that's comparing apples to oranges if judging the new Van Richten's guide. Given that the original book has nothing about general anti-Vistani prejudice, it seems wrong to claim that 5e is fatally flawed for not depicting anti-Vistani prejudice.

It seems to me that the big difference isn't about prejudice. It's that in the original, the Vistani were almost all working for Strahd - and in the 5e version, only one Vistani band made a deal with Strahd, and it made her a controversial figure with the others.

In practice, it seems hard to have a story about anti-Vistani prejudice when they're all spying for Strahd, as the Realm of Terror book describes. When I ran the Ravenloft module again two years ago, my son made a PC who was a sorcerer of Vistani birth. As I ran things, the deal between Strahd and Madame Eva was a strictly local deal, and it was more of a non-aggression treaty rather than them being spies for him. Hence, my son's PC hadn't heard of Strahd - and Eva did not inform to Strahd about the PCs after meeting them.

I don't not having Vistani prejudice is a flaw (though I do think if they've stripped that from Van Richten as a character in the setting, in order to make him more righteous, it is a less interesting take---since that particular character flaw really is one of the contradictions in his character that made him compelling for me). I wouldn't say all the vistani worked for Strahd. Strahd, like a lot of lords, treated the vistani well in exchange for things like information because the Vistani have a freedom of movement and a connection to the mists that other people don't in the setting. I kind of liked how in the old setting, even the lords would have to rely on that from time to time, and were wise to respect the Vistani. I think the old setting wasn't about prejudice agains them. It was more they were mysterious and powerful and there seemed to be a blend of admiration, fear and respect. They were like wild cards: they had the upper hand and you didn't know if you were going to get what you needed or get misdirected or worse if you went to them for help (their fortune telling could be really useful, on the other hand, they could be selling you out to a local domain lord). I think for horror, that works pretty well. 

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 03:41:25 PM


I believe that there is material in some of the other books - but I feel like that's comparing apples to oranges if judging the new Van Richten's guide. Given that the original book has nothing about general anti-Vistani prejudice, it seems wrong to claim that 5e is fatally flawed for not depicting anti-Vistani prejudice.

It is hard not to include some mention of other books though. The Van Richten books were pretty important in shaping the line and in developing the character of Van Richten. The black box is pretty broad stroke and bare bones. And for the most part, that is all you need: you can develop Ravenloft to taste from there. But I think a lot of peoples understanding of the Vistani in particular and of the nature of the setting was very dependent on some of the other material (like I said Van Richten books but also some of the modules and novels). What constitutes canon, is a bit debatable because the line changed over time, the setting is designed to change. The map itself changed at least three times in the 90s. And there wasn't always tremendous consistency (one book literally has an NPC call the place  Ravenloft, one books says no one in Raveneloft ever refers to it as such). But definitely the Van Richten books come up again and again as key.

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:14:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.

I'm sorry, but are there Dark Power CHECKS in the system? if so, can you cite the page, since you bought the book? Because I was hearing that there were no check mechanics. And that people can start with a Dark Gift at level one and its just basically a cool superpower with no mechanical consequences.

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:23:15 PM

Claim: the Vistani who helped Strahd were fake because real Vistani can't be evil

QuoteMadame Eva. A controversial figure among the Vistani, Madame Eva made a bargain with the vampire Count Strahd von Zarovich. As a result, the evils that lurk in Barovia avoid Vistani. However, Madame Eva and her followers occasionally ally with the infamous count, giving them a sinister reputation. Madame Eva and her unique band of Vistani are detailed in the adventure Curse of Strahd.

Right, so there is ONE evil vistani to account for a pre produced module (that they probably consider racist now).
Meanwhile, answer yes or no:
-Is it or is it not true that the book claims that Vistani are beloved of the general population of ravenloft's realms and are almost welcome with cheers and happiness when they reach a village?

-Is it or is it not true that Esmerelda (who has now been redefined as "Ez", I guess "esmerelda" is too misogynist a name?) was now "from a family of criminals who were just pretending to be Vistani?

YES OR NO?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2021, 08:26:45 PM
That makes me wonder if different domains might treat vistani very differently. The isolated pseudo-European rural villages might be xenophobic (while hypocrisy making dealings anyway), whereas the more industrialized Americanesque towns and cities might be largely indifferent (unless they need to buy something).

The book states something like that "only the most dismal location might be suspicious of them because they're suspicious of all travelers". It's literally NOT ALLOWED that in the realm of Ravenloft anyone normal would specifically distrust the Vistani. And of course now the Vistani are entirely cosmic do-gooders, the suggestion that any Vistani could be a thief, con artist, rogue, or other form of criminal is now a Hate Speech Crime.

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:37:04 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:21:29 PM

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:14:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.

Uh... what? Why the fuck would the PCs be allowed to contact the metaphysical Dark Powers?

I'm not sure you understand what I meant. I mean the 'powers checks' where the PCs could gradually become corrupted by their actions.

Again, I may have read that wrong. Edit: I may be thinking of them making a Warlock subclass which draws its power from the Dark Powers somehow.

And yes, I misunderstood; they have a variation on the Powers Check. I can't quote it since I don't have my copy in front of me, though.

Please list the page number because I was told otherwise.

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:53:58 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Right, so in other words there is no more Power Check MECHANIC anymore.

Quote

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

• A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
• Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
• An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
• A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
• A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

And, since you're trying to be so helpful, can you quote us what the book says about the NEGATIVE consequences of taking a dark gift? Because from what I was told, there is effectively NONE. I don't mean risks or side-effects of individual powers, I mean the idea that the Dark Powers are a CORRUPTING evil that gradually corrupts the character who embraces them both physically and morally, turning them into evil beings?

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 09:06:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:53:58 PM

They've eliminated the percentile roll, and instead made the offer at DM's discretion.

Quote
Dark Bargains
...
At the DM's discretion, sinister forces might contact a character and offer them a Dark Gift in return for some service or future favor.
...
The DM might have a mysterious force intervene and offer a Dark Gift whenever a desperate or thematic instance presents itself, such as in any of the following cases:

• A Darklord will negotiate with a party only if a character seals the deal by accepting their Dark Gift.
• Time stops while a character is on the brink of death. A mysterious voice offers to save the character's life, but only if they accept the Dark Gift.
• An experiment or magical accident goes wrong. The DM allows a character to accept a Dark Gift or some other peril as a result.
• A character breaks a vow or suffers a curse (see chapter 4), gaining a Dark Gift as a result.
• A character touches a mysterious amber sarcophagus, and a force within entreats them to accept its influence in the form of a Dark Gift.

The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

I don't mind this, it has the potential for good roleplaying.

No, it's just superpowers.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 28, 2021, 08:00:39 AM
One thing that gives me a slight sliver of hope is that Ravensoft has been getting less than glowing reviews from 'some' of the youtubers that you'd least suspect.

Of course, all the big youtubers are licking the arse of WoTC but that's to be expected.

There's clearly interest in hearing the truth about this. My Ravenloft videos are all overperforming in terms of views and interactions.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 28, 2021, 02:15:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:23:15 PM
While there is some connection between the claims and the text, the specifics seem like hyperbole at best.

"Quiet you!  Can't you see I'm protecting my games!"

I admit, I haven't done a fine-toothed witch hunt for wrong think text, but it really reminds me of classical vistani presentations.  Except if they were previously "morally gray, with a shade of black" now they're "morally gray, with a shade of white".  Maybe.  Either way, not enough to be worth clutching pearls over.  I remember worse ethnic sensitivity nonsense in the Nightmare Lands sourcebox, and that was pre-3ed, pre-internet, pre-constant universal outrage over everything.   

Please quote things in their new description that is even slightly "morally gray". I haven't seen any text about Vistani from the new book that isn't ebulliantly gushing with praise about how wonderful and good they are and helpful and caring and just generally better than anyone else.  Paladins are given more bad press than Vistani in the Nu-Ravenloft.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 28, 2021, 11:11:21 PMPaladins are given more bad press than Vistani in the Nu-Ravenloft.

Well, duh, classic paladins are basically everything woke types hate.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 28, 2021, 10:55:31 PM

Quote from: Jame Rowe on May 27, 2021, 08:14:31 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:05:53 PM
Speaking of the Dark Powers, I heard they eliminated Dark Powers checks from the new Ravenloft. Can anyone confirm or deny?

No, they weren't removed.

I think they were changed, in that somehow PCs could contact them. I may have read it wrong.

Yes, I bought the book; I enjoy it as an adventure setting, and maybe I'll use it someday with changes inspired by 2e.

I'm sorry, but are there Dark Power CHECKS in the system? if so, can you cite the page, since you bought the book? Because I was hearing that there were no check mechanics. And that people can start with a Dark Gift at level one and its just basically a cool superpower with no mechanical consequences.

I heard someobe complain about there being some form of consequences on another board, but i dint think there are checks, the DM just asks if you want one sometimes.

While there was room to modify powers checks (demanding a powers check for leveling up is just stupid), it appears WotC has watered down the system in favor of 'Dark Gifts' that give you an ability and a kind of half-assed penalty. A very weak substitute, IMO.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 29, 2021, 12:14:28 AM
While there was room to modify powers checks (demanding a powers check for leveling up is just stupid), it appears WotC has watered down the system in favor of 'Dark Gifts' that give you an ability and a kind of half-assed penalty. A very weak substitute, IMO.

That's the understatement of the year. This changes the entire Ravenloft campaign experience from being an internal and external struggle against the corrupting power of temptation/sin, into being a kind of scooby-doo scary-ride theme park that also gives you superpowers.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 29, 2021, 12:53:30 AMThat's the understatement of the year. This changes the entire Ravenloft campaign experience from being an internal and external struggle against the corrupting power of temptation/sin, into being a kind of scooby-doo scary-ride theme park that also gives you superpowers.

The way it works is that whenever you roll a 1 on an attack, ability check, or saving throw, you get a an effect. The effect is random, usually 1 to 6 with most of the results being bad for you or your party.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 28, 2021, 11:11:21 PMPlease quote things in their new description that is even slightly "morally gray". I haven't seen any text about Vistani from the new book that isn't ebulliantly gushing with praise about how wonderful and good they are and helpful and caring and just generally better than anyone else.  Paladins are given more bad press than Vistani in the Nu-Ravenloft.

Morally grey? I'm assuming that means anything outside of an idealised communist utopia. In which case would these phrases count:
"They're protective of their families, which includes members of other caravans."
"Most don't discuss their culture or beliefs with outsiders."

To me this suggests that they are xenophobic and organised like a clan. Which fits the Romani stereotype well enough, so I'm surprised that made the cut.

Quote from: Palleon on May 25, 2021, 06:38:49 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 24, 2021, 09:37:47 PM
All that said. The other reason Tasha and probably now Wokenloft sell is as noted earlier in the thread. That Tasha had a new class and new class paths. And Wokenloft here also has new class paths. Not sure how many. But thats bound to attract a few extra sales just for those.

Yes, someone had a brilliant idea with 5E.  Including about 5 player options in a splat book ensures it's not just the DMs buying the titles.

Least they are playtested.

And So far these have not been spaltbooks like we saw in 2 and 3e. WOTC has been surprisingly frugal with expansions so far.
We have had 3 official setting books. Sword Coast, Eberron and one other forget what was. I guess this new Wokenloft is another?
We have had 2 monster manuals that double as ecology books of a sort. Volo and Mordenkainen.
We have had 2 expansion books. Xanithar and Tasha.
And about 2 or so campaign modules a year.

Of those new player material has been mostly concentrated in the two expansions and the rest tends to be in the setting books and semi-setting themed.

I do not count the various sideline collaboration stuff like Acquisitions, that Role 20 (Wildermont?) book and so on.

No one can complain about an excess of new books.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on May 28, 2021, 11:34:29 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 28, 2021, 11:11:21 PMPaladins are given more bad press than Vistani in the Nu-Ravenloft.

Well, duh, classic paladins are basically everything woke types hate.

That is only because Paladins have the power to Detect Woke and cause extra damage when smiting them.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:42:20 AMI'll put on my pedantic hat for a second.

The cosms were the actual home world the invaders came from, the realms were their places on our earth.

So while the Nile Empire got a realm -and- cosm book (and was the only invader to do so, if I recall right), Orrorsh did not.

Late to this but... er? TORG or fake new torg?

TORG indeed had an Orrorsh book. Covered the realm and Gaea since unlike some other raiders the Gaunt Mans cosm destroys each it invades before moving on so there is no home cosm left.

Just to give people the details on how powers checks used to work in 2E (keeping in mind this changed over the course of the line), is whenever a character attracted the attention of the dark powers by committing an evil act, they would have to make a powers check (this was a percentile roll with a 1-10% chance of the player failing and being changed by the dark powers: with 10% being for especially egregious acts of evil). If you failed you advance to one of the stages of corruptions. In the black box there were six stages (DoD has 13 with the first three stages still being relatively pure and not having any real effects on you). Every stage gives a reward and a punishment.

This is how it first appeared in the black box. It got refined in the red box, and further developed in the Domains of Dread book. I think a lot of people developed their own approach to it based on how it was described in the introduction (the actual stages are interesting and good I think but in some instances they fall a bit short of the promise laid out in the section leading up to the stages. Also worth noting these changes are supposed to reflect the evil act and one common approach was for the GM to think of an endpoint based on the trajectory so that each stage makes sense and contributes to the overall transformation (rather than being a bunch of random things that happen to the character). 

Stage one is the enticement, which usually gives some kind of small bonus or a very minor attack that does 1-2 damage, the punishment is your evil becomes more visible in some way (voice sounds evil, eyes glow in dark, forked tongue, etc). 

Stage two is the invitation. This raises the rewards to things like larger bonuses (examples include +4 to HP, +2 on a single ability), to abilities like cause disease once a day, charm person once a day, to attacks that do 1-4 damage. The punishment is a major physical change (examples include growing a tail, fingers becoming tentacles, needing to drink blood once a day, face becomes that of an animal, etc)

Stage Three is the touch of Darkness. The reward is at the level of a minor power (it states usually something like a spell that becomes a natural ability). Examples include gaining 1 level of XP, Ray of Enfeeblement three times a day, drinking blood causing your strength to increase by 1d4+2 for 10 rounds, Tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter by touch three times a day. Punishments are physical changes that accompany the reward. A list of example punishments isn't offered, this is more described, though in this description it says that a character who drinks blood may develop fangs and red eyes when his strength is increased, or a character who gains the ability to warp wood may develop hands that are dark with curving black nails. The character also acquires a difficult to control temper at this stage.

Stage Four is the embrace. Characters develop things like resist magic or abilities at the level of Flying at will, controlling undead, being immune to attacks (and only hit by things like silver or magic), level drain, raise dead by touch once a day, etc. The punishment is further physical transformation to reflect the ability gained. The example provided is a character who gains spin webs from hands may have hands that look like two spiders dangling from his wrists (this example I think can work or come off as silly depending on how you visualize it). Also the character really starts to lose control of their behavior. Basically if the character faces something they desire, they have to save versus spell to resist stealing it. If he fails he does whatever he can to get what he wants.

Stage Five is you become a creature of ravenloft. This is left vague but basically you are completely transformed into a monster of some kind and you lose control for days at a time.

Stage six is you become a lord of ravenloft. Basically if you enter the misty borders a new domain is created for you. You become an NPC at this stage.

One thing to understand about these stages is they are not really hard and fast rules. They are more like flexible examples. For powers checks to work you always had to tailor them to the actions, the character and the direction they were heading. I think if there was one area of the black box most in need of revision and clarification this would be it (it was a brilliant idea, and the concept totally worked, but there were some rough edges in the descriptions of the stages that I recall taking some time for me to navigate as a GM: and I think they got better at describing the process as the line went on).

Same friend who had one of the other books off D&D Beyond, for reasons unfathomable, picked up the Ravenloft book in its Beyond format and I had a quick glance through to see what they did with the Vistani. Not an easy thing to find and about 2/3rds down in the book.

Assuming this is the same as the print book. Heres what I saw.
1: They are no longer bound to Barovia and accept no master.
2: They wander all over the domains and outside even.
3: They are welcome in many towns as bringers of news. And even towns distrustfull will allow them in for the news.
4: Madam Eva is now a "controversial" figure because she deals with Strahd.
5: There are now non human Vistani. One being a halfling who helps souls escape the demiplane. Though in the original module there is an elven gypsy. So nothing new really I guess.

And what the fuck is this "Ez" d'Avenir? Ez. Really?

I got tired of searching after that. Seems standard Politically Correct scrub job to remove anything "offensive". I did not see anything about fake Vistani. Well aside from these new PC fake Vistani.

Though keep in mind the original Ravenloft module flip-flopped in just what the hell the gypsies were and ended up contradicting themselves. In the main module they are just kind of there. But the monster entry at the pack presents them as evil and always out to mislead and cheat the PCs. But nothing in the module backs that up other than one random encounter in the castle with some evil gypsies. And the ones with Eva are for who knows what reason listed as NE in their stat block which contradicts their actions. The rest are CN or LN or such. You actually do not really learn as a DM that they are evil till the end of the module.

My boxed set is in storage so can not check how they were presented in that.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 29, 2021, 12:53:30 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 29, 2021, 12:14:28 AM
While there was room to modify powers checks (demanding a powers check for leveling up is just stupid), it appears WotC has watered down the system in favor of 'Dark Gifts' that give you an ability and a kind of half-assed penalty. A very weak substitute, IMO.

That's the understatement of the year. This changes the entire Ravenloft campaign experience from being an internal and external struggle against the corrupting power of temptation/sin, into being a kind of scooby-doo scary-ride theme park that also gives you superpowers.

I do try. And you're right. This is like stripping the sanity-eroding nature of Cthulhu Mythos knowledge out of Call of Cthulhu. What's the point?

(Speaking of CoC, I once pitched an idea for a PC that was, essentially, a Yithian that had gone native. Instead of sanity, he had an Empathy trait, and the lower it went the harder it was to hide that he was Not Human despite being in a human body.)

But yeah, this turns Ravenloft into Generic Darker-Than-Average Fantasy Realm #145. Hoo-fucking-ray.

From my glance through the Beyond version it seems like the horror is still there. Theres ample advice on how to make things more terrifying and how to make it personal too. Which flies in the face of the online statements of what the book would be. This advice is very NOT safe space.

One thing I did notice though is a third or more of the book is advice and tables and little lists of suggestions. Page after page of this and it feels like padding the way its formatted. The pages I stopped on all seemed ok to some degree and nothing really leaped out as off kilter other than the lack of alignment listings for monsters or NPCs and the scrubbing of the Vistani, who were already not necessarily evil to begin with because the original writers apparently couldnt make up their minds.

What I came away with is that it is a big "How to DM horror" and a big "suggestions" book with little info on the domains really. Another of those "they spend alot of time saying very little" when it comes to describing things.

Quote from: Omega on May 29, 2021, 11:35:19 AM
From my glance through the Beyond version it seems like the horror is still there. Theres ample advice on how to make things more terrifying and how to make it personal too. Which flies in the face of the online statements of what the book would be. This advice is very NOT safe space.

One thing I did notice though is a third or more of the book is advice and tables and little lists of suggestions. Page after page of this and it feels like padding the way its formatted. The pages I stopped on all seemed ok to some degree and nothing really leaped out as off kilter other than the lack of alignment listings for monsters or NPCs and the scrubbing of the Vistani, who were already not necessarily evil to begin with because the original writers apparently couldnt make up their minds.

What I came away with is that it is a big "How to DM horror" and a big "suggestions" book with little info on the domains really. Another of those "they spend alot of time saying very little" when it comes to describing things.

So, despite being billed as a setting book, it's more of a horror genre sourcebook (of questionable quality) than an exploration of the Ravenloft domains. That's not really what I'd buy a setting book for. I certainly didn't buy the Eberron book for details on running games in a post-war (or between wars pulpy) period; I bought it for setting details (and I was somewhat disappointed).

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 29, 2021, 12:13:37 PM
So, despite being billed as a setting book, it's more of a horror genre sourcebook (of questionable quality) than an exploration of the Ravenloft domains. That's not really what I'd buy a setting book for. I certainly didn't buy the Eberron book for details on running games in a post-war (or between wars pulpy) period; I bought it for setting details (and I was somewhat disappointed).

Oh theres setting info in the book. But all I saw felt so spartan that I came away from it knowing little more than came in with half the time. Each domain gets i'd guess 8 pages. But the formatting is such that it felt more like Im reading half that at best and alot of page is taken up by lists and other non info things.

One thing I did note was that they devote several pages to making your own domains. And a whole lot of pages on describing various genres of horror.

So that reinforces my assessment that they are going for a very "make it your own." sort of ideal. Personalize things. Change things.

Quote from: mightybrain on May 29, 2021, 05:48:27 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 29, 2021, 12:53:30 AMThat's the understatement of the year. This changes the entire Ravenloft campaign experience from being an internal and external struggle against the corrupting power of temptation/sin, into being a kind of scooby-doo scary-ride theme park that also gives you superpowers.

The way it works is that whenever you roll a 1 on an attack, ability check, or saving throw, you get a an effect. The effect is random, usually 1 to 6 with most of the results being bad for you or your party.

So, you're saying I just need to play a halfling, and I can ignore any penalties?  Cool.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 28, 2021, 11:04:08 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 08:53:58 PM
The list of gifts is shorter but each is more detailed than the 2e dark gifts, and the gifts each have down sides, like "Touch of Death" where you automatically harm anyone you hold. Mechanically, that's not a big deal (you deal necrotic damage any time you grapple someone), but it's a pretty significant issue for a character's personal life.

Characters can also choose to have a Dark Gift upon character creation, but as mentioned, they all have their down sides.

And, since you're trying to be so helpful, can you quote us what the book says about the NEGATIVE consequences of taking a dark gift? Because from what I was told, there is effectively NONE. I don't mean risks or side-effects of individual powers, I mean the idea that the Dark Powers are a CORRUPTING evil that gradually corrupts the character who embraces them both physically and morally, turning them into evil beings?

I'm not arguing how you want to interpret the down sides. If you don't like them, you don't like them. ​I just don't think it's been clearly communicated what they are.

For example, I mentioned Touch of Death where the character damages anything they hold. This has gothic horror roots like Nathaniel Hawthorne's 1844 story Rappaccini's Daughter about a woman with such a condition. In that story, it was viewed as tragic - because she couldn't even hug the people she loves without hurting them. I can see that in some games, it's just a pure superpower, because they can combine damage with a grapple.

If I were running Ravenloft, though, I know my players would all think twice before taking that - because it'll really mess with their character, and I as DM would surely look for situations where, say, they are called on to carry a living creature and so forth.

The full list of the Dark Gifts are:

1) Echoing Soul: You have a past life with useful memories, but sometimes the past overwhelms you and you see uncontrolled echoes of your past.

2) Gathered Whispers: You are haunted by spirits that whisper to you. They can help you sometimes, but they have their own agenda and can also harm.

3) Living Shadow: Your own shadow is a living separate being. Again, it can be helpful, but can also cause problems or mischief.

4) Mist Walker: You have some ability to navigate Ravenloft's mists, but you must keep moving on and cannot remain in one area.

5) Second Skin: Like Jeckyll and Hyde, you can shift yourself to a second appearance, but you can change involuntarily based on a randomly-determined trigger.

6) Symbiotic Being: A creature lives inside your body (of random type). It dies if you die, so it will help to keep you alive and can advise you, but it has its own agenda.

7) Touch of Death: mentioned above

8 ) Watchers: Tiny creatures appear that constantly watch you - like ravens or spiders. They can alert you to things (aid perception), but NPCs can react badly to their presence and of course, they must report somewhere.

Personally, I like these except for Mist Walker. They've got nice gothic horror connections, and they get the players more actively involved. Whenever a player uses a Dark Gift, it directly connects to the creepy side of things. So it's more something players have the temptation to use, and they give the DM good hooks to mess with them.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2021, 07:44:31 PM


The full list of the Dark Gifts are:

3) Living Shadow: Your own shadow is a living separate being. Again, it can be helpful, but can also cause problems or mischief.

I always thought Neverland had a bit of Dark Domain in it...

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on May 29, 2021, 10:21:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2021, 07:44:31 PM
... 3) Living Shadow: Your own shadow is a living separate being. Again, it can be helpful, but can also cause problems or mischief.

I always thought Neverland had a bit of Dark Domain in it...

I thought of Peter Pan too when I first read this "Dark Power"...

And in my opinion I think it speaks to Pundits larger point.

IMHO these powers fall very much into the "Oh-so-Random Tricksy!" category, rather than the "Fuck, I'm cursed!" category.

The type of so called "gothic horror"  one feels that the Neu-Ravenloft conveys is closer to what one would feel when they were young and went on the Haunted Mansion Ride at Disney Land for the first time.

Not the type of Gothic Horror OG-Ravenloft tried to convey where the player was supposed to be in fear of their characters very life.

Neu-Ravenloft was written for a very different audience than OG-Ravenloft, but WOTC is trying to market it like there is no difference.

I am not not so sure on that point.

It feels like yet another WOTC schizo book where they say one thing and do the opposite.

The book reads, far as I got, as mostly geared to Horror with a capital H rather than Moral Guardian Censor Board horror.

They have these loved by (nearly) all aloof doing my own thing not-Vishtani which totally do not fit the scenery of horror, madness, and fates worse than death they have laid out and encourage.

Going to be a couple of days before can get another glance at the Beyond version.

But the general impression is schizo writing.
Its very watered down - its very not watered down.

The first few pages try to take the wind out of horror and GMs. Then the rest of the book proceeds to huff and puff and blow that house of X-cards down. Then butchers and eats the little pigs one by one while the dwindling survivors watch.

I think the randomness of the effects is a good choice because then the players can't work around the problems. But I'd also prefer the effects to get worse over time.

I did a bit of digging into the history of Wallachia and Vlad Dracula. It seems, in terms of his relationship with the Romani he was considered something of a folk hero. And while he did terrible things to the Turks and the boyars, they weren't friends of the Romani. Their folk stories had him freeing the country, and fighting the vampires (strigoi) and other evil spirits with an army of Gypsies and Angels behind him. The rumours about him being a vampire and drinking blood were started by the traders of the neighbouring countries, as his locking down the borders had disrupted their ability to trade.

It seems to me, to fictionalise it, it would make much more sense for the Vistani to be in league with Strahd than to oppose him.

Quote from: mightybrain on May 30, 2021, 11:09:25 AM
I did a bit of digging into the history of Wallachia and Vlad Dracula. It seems, in terms of his relationship with the Romani he was considered something of a folk hero. And while he did terrible things to the Turks and the boyars, they weren't friends of the Romani. Their folk stories had him freeing the country, and fighting the vampires (strigoi) and other evil spirits with an army of Gypsies and Angels behind him. The rumours about him being a vampire and drinking blood were started by the traders of the neighbouring countries, as his locking down the borders had disrupted their ability to trade.

It seems to me, to fictionalise it, it would make much more sense for the Vistani to be in league with Strahd than to oppose him.

As Kosh said, understanding is a three-edged sword. The truth of the matter is in the middle. Vlad Tepes was most certainly a brutal man, the result of his times. He brooked no challenge to his authority or rule -- and in those days, life was cheap indeed. But he was a patriot of sorts, and the old saw about a man being able to carry a bag of gold from one end of his holdings to the other had a lot of truth to it (bandits avoided his territory like the plague, since his favorite pastime was 'find new and interesting ways to kill people').

Sometimes, all we can do is adhere to Bruce Lee's maxim: take what is useful, discard what is not.

QuoteI did a bit of digging into the history of Wallachia and Vlad Dracula. It seems, in terms of his relationship with the Romani he was considered something of a folk hero. And while he did terrible things to the Turks and the boyars, they weren't friends of the Romani. Their folk stories had him freeing the country, and fighting the vampires (strigoi) and other evil spirits with an army of Gypsies and Angels behind him. The rumours about him being a vampire and drinking blood were started by the traders of the neighbouring countries, as his locking down the borders had disrupted their ability to trade.

But let's just make it clear. You are 100% sure you mean ROMANI (ergo Gypsies, IndoAryan nomadic nation) folk hero and not ROMANIAN (which is East Italic nations born from settlers from Italy mixed with Eastern Europeans to which Vlad Tepes belonged - also known as Vallachians). Because Romani and Romanians are not really that friendly to each other, and names can be misguiding.

Heres another thing that I've pointed out before.

The "steriotypes" of the gypsies are anything but. And Ravenlofts presentation is actually spot on.

In my home town well into the 70s we had recurring problems with gypsies of the worst sort and they had a very bad rep locally because they would come through and pretend to be handymen and such. But were really casing homes out to rob.

Then when was staying at Kats place for a few years she warned me very specifically about a band of gypsies who would park out in the forest on her land. They were VERY dangerous. But she had a standing agreement with them and they left her alone. That was well into 2000.

Far as I know most people are unaware of that darker side of gypsies and the general outlook and perception is fairly positive. Most movie depictions are. And even when they are shown to also be thieves, it is usually for some reason like an oppressive land or whatever. And far as I know most gypsie bands are pleasant and cause no trouble at all.

As usual though the Woke cult makes things worse. The more they try to scrub and censor things the more people are going to see the dirt. And the worse its going to get for whatever minority they are feeding off of currently.

Quote from: Jaeger on May 29, 2021, 11:34:02 PM
IMHO these powers fall very much into the "Oh-so-Random Tricksy!" category, rather than the "Fuck, I'm cursed!" category.

It depends what sort of horror game you like.

One version of a horror game is very black and white. There are good guys, and there are bad guys. If the good guys try anything morally corrupt, then it obviously will go badly for them. In these cases, the players know to stay on the straight and narrow - and they might die, but the lines stay clear.

The Call of Cthulhu campaign I just wrapped up was like this, which we played for over a year. The GM was using Masks of Nyarlathotep. We encountered a bunch of eldritch tomes and strange items, but we quickly found that they were horrible and using them was a loser's bet. Thus, the campaign as a whole was about us as PCs just killing cultists with shotguns and dynamite. We collected and used resources like money, mercenaries, and weapons - but our growing pile of eldritch material was largely untouched. We had a bunch of tactical challenges, and had four PCs die over the course of the campaign. It wasn't a cakewalk. However, the death didn't have much shock value. The player would just roll up a new character.

---

By contrast, I've played in a number of horror campaigns where there were a lot more shades of grey -- where the players weren't sure which side they were on, and some PCs descended into various sorts of dark corruption. In my friend Jan's campaigns set in the 1930s, most of the PCs joined in a worldwide conspiracy that some others described as a cult, and used various ancient secrets to try to fight off the impending apocalypse. Most PCs had some sort of strange powers that they were influenced by in order to fight the other side - but we had severe arguments about whether the power we were accepting was good or evil. In my 1890s Golden Dawn campaign, the PCs all went through arcs of corruption based on what they put their faith in, leading to their self-destruction in the end as they took down the other side with them. In my gothic horror games, I also had a bunch of PC who had varying degrees of darkness, and they accepted deals from dark forces because they considered them the lesser evil. For example, a shadar-kai character took a deal from the Raven Queen as he was on the brink of death to return so he could return and fight Strahd.

From my view, the deals have to look enticing at the start - or the players simply won't want to accept them. There's no temptation. In the Masks campaign, we just abandoned a PC if they went mad, and burned or destroyed books if they seemed corrupting. Now, the GM can simply impose horrible curses on the PCs without them willingly taking it, but that rapidly turns into just another way to die. This happens in CoC as characters go insane. In the recent Masks campaign, we also had two characters go insane - but we just put them in a sanitarium and abandoned them. I think when a character gets too cursed, they just quit or get themselves killed, and the player rolls up a new PC.

I enjoyed our Masks game as a great war/crime campaign of cult-killing. But I feel like including plausible temptations makes for more classical horror aspects. Having characters like Rappaccini's Daughter or Dr. Jekyll make for players who are more invested in the horror aspect.

Quote from: Wrath of God on May 30, 2021, 07:36:28 PMBut let's just make it clear. You are 100% sure you mean ROMANI (ergo Gypsies, IndoAryan nomadic nation) folk hero and not ROMANIAN (which is East Italic nations born from settlers from Italy mixed with Eastern Europeans to which Vlad Tepes belonged - also known as Vallachians). Because Romani and Romanians are not really that friendly to each other, and names can be misguiding.

In particular I am referring to the epic poem Țiganiada by a Romanian scholar, but about a group of Gypsies (Romani) fighting alongside Vlad the Impaler.

Quote from: mightybrain on May 31, 2021, 08:14:24 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on May 30, 2021, 07:36:28 PMBut let's just make it clear. You are 100% sure you mean ROMANI (ergo Gypsies, IndoAryan nomadic nation) folk hero and not ROMANIAN (which is East Italic nations born from settlers from Italy mixed with Eastern Europeans to which Vlad Tepes belonged - also known as Vallachians). Because Romani and Romanians are not really that friendly to each other, and names can be misguiding.

In particular I am referring to the epic poem Țiganiada by a Romanian scholar, but about a group of Gypsies (Romani) fighting alongside Vlad the Impaler.

Is that where Bram Stoker got the idea for Dracula to hire Szgany (Romani) from?

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2021, 08:55:29 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on May 29, 2021, 11:34:02 PM
IMHO these powers fall very much into the "Oh-so-Random Tricksy!" category, rather than the "Fuck, I'm cursed!" category.

It depends what sort of horror game you like.

One version of a horror game is very black and white. There are good guys, and there are bad guys. If the good guys try anything morally corrupt, then it obviously will go badly for them. In these cases, the players know to stay on the straight and narrow - and they might die, but the lines stay clear.

The Call of Cthulhu campaign I just wrapped up was like this, which we played for over a year. The GM was using Masks of Nyarlathotep. We encountered a bunch of eldritch tomes and strange items, but we quickly found that they were horrible and using them was a loser's bet. Thus, the campaign as a whole was about us as PCs just killing cultists with shotguns and dynamite. We collected and used resources like money, mercenaries, and weapons - but our growing pile of eldritch material was largely untouched. We had a bunch of tactical challenges, and had four PCs die over the course of the campaign. It wasn't a cakewalk. However, the death didn't have much shock value. The player would just roll up a new character.

---

By contrast, I've played in a number of horror campaigns where there were a lot more shades of grey -- where the players weren't sure which side they were on, and some PCs descended into various sorts of dark corruption. In my friend Jan's campaigns set in the 1930s, most of the PCs joined in a worldwide conspiracy that some others described as a cult, and used various ancient secrets to try to fight off the impending apocalypse. Most PCs had some sort of strange powers that they were influenced by in order to fight the other side - but we had severe arguments about whether the power we were accepting was good or evil. In my 1890s Golden Dawn campaign, the PCs all went through arcs of corruption based on what they put their faith in, leading to their self-destruction in the end as they took down the other side with them. In my gothic horror games, I also had a bunch of PC who had varying degrees of darkness, and they accepted deals from dark forces because they considered them the lesser evil. For example, a shadar-kai character took a deal from the Raven Queen as he was on the brink of death to return so he could return and fight Strahd.

From my view, the deals have to look enticing at the start - or the players simply won't want to accept them. There's no temptation. In the Masks campaign, we just abandoned a PC if they went mad, and burned or destroyed books if they seemed corrupting. Now, the GM can simply impose horrible curses on the PCs without them willingly taking it, but that rapidly turns into just another way to die. This happens in CoC as characters go insane. In the recent Masks campaign, we also had two characters go insane - but we just put them in a sanitarium and abandoned them. I think when a character gets too cursed, they just quit or get themselves killed, and the player rolls up a new PC.

I enjoyed our Masks game as a great war/crime campaign of cult-killing. But I feel like including plausible temptations makes for more classical horror aspects. Having characters like Rappaccini's Daughter or Dr. Jekyll make for players who are more invested in the horror aspect.

Horror can exist on a wide range, from morally gray horror to black and white. I like all kinds of horror, and I like all kinds of stories (from morally gray to black and white). But Ravenloft had an established flavor and concept in this respect. Old Ravenloft was black and white with strong tragic elements. It specifically says in the black box that the dark powers respond to all of the seven deadly sins, with the possible exception of sloth. There is one aspect to Ravenloft that is potentially gray: that we don't know the nature of the dark powers. They respond to evil, but we don't know if the dark powers themselves are evil, good, or disinterested enforcers of an objective moral standard (but powers checks themselves create an objective morality in the setting). I don't what the case is with the new Ravenloft in terms of morality as I haven't read the book. If they have eliminated alignment, but retained good and evil as concepts, it can still work. But this is a setting where just using Necromantic magic warrants a powers check. In most settings necromancy is afforded more gray. In Ravenloft it isn't (or wasn't). They can change those things about Ravenloft, and maybe that attracts more young fans. However it definitely is the kind of thing that loses an old fan like me (and not because I am outraged over alignment----I can entertain different thought exercises about setting cosmologies---but because the old black and white morality approach to Ravenloft was one of the things that made it work and made it interesting. Doesn't mean there wasn't nuance or conflict within that (you often faced truly horrible choices). But there was cosmic heft to the morality. Doing evil, corrupted you physically, mentally and spiritually. It wasn't something to adorn yourself with to make your character unique and stand out. I feel like the new setting, at least with much of the preview material and marketing I am seeing, treats things like curses, cursed bloodlines, bodies corrupted by evil, as fashion choices for your character. Going down that path in old Ravenloft was about your character's destruction, not about having cool fangs. Again, these things can work in certain genres. To me the new Ravenloft feels very urban fantasy (where characters embrace being monsters, and monstrosities are often just misunderstood). I love stuff like the Dresden Files. But this wasn't the Dresden Files. Making Ravenloft more like Harry Potter or the Dresden Files, in my mind, doesn't make it a better setting, it stripes out the bold qualities that gave it flavor in the first place.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 10:22:00 AMIs that where Bram Stoker got the idea for Dracula to hire Szgany (Romani) from?

I believe he studied the history of the region for his book. Vlad Dracula was apparently a master of asymmetric warfare and would make good use of all the resources available to him.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 31, 2021, 10:58:06 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2021, 08:55:29 PM
From my view, the deals have to look enticing at the start - or the players simply won't want to accept them. There's no temptation. In the Masks campaign, we just abandoned a PC if they went mad, and burned or destroyed books if they seemed corrupting.

Tthe old black and white morality approach to Ravenloft was one of the things that made it work and made it interesting. Doesn't mean there wasn't nuance or conflict within that (you often faced truly horrible choices). But there was cosmic heft to the morality. Doing evil, corrupted you physically, mentally and spiritually. It wasn't something to adorn yourself with to make your character unique and stand out.

I don't feel like you've addressed my point about corruption earlier. You're suggesting a split of:

1) Morality is black and white, and corruption is clearly and explicitly punished.

2) There is no morality, and there are no consequences for corruption.

But my point is that in games with #1, there is no temptation. If morality is black and white and evil is punished, then it is obvious that corruption is the wrong choice, so no one would choose that. In my own horror games where corruption has featured, it has worked by not drawing things in such black and white. In order to be a temptation, there has to be an ambiguity to the choice.

I'm curious how corruption has featured in your horror games. Actually, I'll start a new thread on the topic, as it seems wider than the new Ravenloft book.

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 02:45:35 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 31, 2021, 10:58:06 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2021, 08:55:29 PM
From my view, the deals have to look enticing at the start - or the players simply won't want to accept them. There's no temptation. In the Masks campaign, we just abandoned a PC if they went mad, and burned or destroyed books if they seemed corrupting.

Tthe old black and white morality approach to Ravenloft was one of the things that made it work and made it interesting. Doesn't mean there wasn't nuance or conflict within that (you often faced truly horrible choices). But there was cosmic heft to the morality. Doing evil, corrupted you physically, mentally and spiritually. It wasn't something to adorn yourself with to make your character unique and stand out.

I don't feel like you've addressed my point about corruption earlier. You're suggesting a split of:

1) Morality is black and white, and corruption is clearly and explicitly punished.

2) There is no morality, and there are no consequences for corruption.

But my point is that in games with #1, there is no temptation. If morality is black and white and evil is punished, then it is obvious that corruption is the wrong choice, so no one would choose that. In my own horror games where corruption has featured, it has worked by not drawing things in such black and white. In order to be a temptation, there has to be an ambiguity to the choice.

I'm curious how corruption has featured in your horror games. Actually, I'll start a new thread on the topic, as it seems wider than the new Ravenloft book.

Ravenloft offered rewards and punishments in the black box. When you failed a powers check: you got power. It was baked into the system. There doesn't need to be ambiguity for temptation to exist. Also just because you have a setting with black and white morality, that doesn't mean everyone can perceive good and evil accurately. That is also baked into the setting. It was impossible to detect good or evil in classic Ravenloft. Good and evil existed, you just couldn't detect them through magic. By the same token, a player taking a course of action may not know the GM will regard it as evil. The player may feel the context of the situation warrants the action, and the GM believes it is still evil enough to attract the attention of the dark powers. And there are all kinds of reasons to commit evil actions. Some people commit evil because they are misguided (i.e. the witch hunter who thinks he is doing gods work and fighting the devil, but in reality is just burning or hanging innocent people). And that can definitely exist in Ravenloft (there was a whole domain based on it). But plenty commit evil out of hubris and other reasons. I think that is one of the reasons the black box mentioning the seven deadly sins was handy: a lot of what drove Strahd for example was envy and lust. There are plenty of people who very much believe in objective morality, and believe there are real punishments for committing actions deemed evil by their system of belief, who knowingly violate those rules and commit acts they themselves view as sinful. You can easily see a characters pride driving them to evil in a setting where they know evil is real for example. And there are always going to be practical reasons driving character choices in Ravenloft. It isn't like a powers check was a foregone conclusion. Just look at the real world outside of religious morality and think in terms of law. We have laws prohibiting theft. You get punished severely if you rob a bank and get caught. Yet people do it all the time. In Ravenloft there are lots of reasons you might knowingly do something evil despite knowing the land responds to evil. One it doesn't always respond. Presumably the evil action you are taking has some intrinsic reward on its own that makes it attractive, so it is a calculated risk. The percentage chance was 1-10% of the dark powers responding. And most checks were 1-2%. There are quite a few things people willingly do that come with a 1-2% risk. And the powers check itself, as I said, gives a bonus and a reward. Ultimately it corrupts you and turns you into a monster, and this isn't something the setting paints as desirable. But by that point you've lost a lot of humanity and self control (and reversing the process is painfully difficult to impossible).

Also fundamentally, I don't think we disagree all that much in principle: corruption should be a product of choice, and making the wrong choice. I think where I am coming from here, is when I see how they approached dark gifts, making them things you can choose, it is the wrong place to put choice. With old ravenloft you never got to select the curse and power you got as a result of a failed powers check, and they always happened after character creation during play as a result of actual decisions you made in the game. By front loading dark gifts, even if they come with a downside, it really nerfs that for me. It makes it more like taking a flaw in a game (which yes is bad but usually has a coolness factor the player also desires). To me that just isn't in keeping with what powers checks or the setting was about. Like I said it feels much more urban fantasy to me than the kind of very focused gothic horror you were getting in Ravenloft before.

The gist of temptation in general though is it has to appear as some type of "good" or it's not a temptation. Generally sin/evil is the result of someone prioritizing a lesser good at the expense of a greater one.

ex. the desire to live comfortably in this life (a good) justifies stealing what you want at the expense of the goods of other people being able to enjoy the fruits of their own labors, their incentive to continue producing if its all going to be wasted anyway (harming society and not just the person robbed) and, if you're Christian, also robbing yourself of an eternity in paradise (a greater long term personal good).

No one decides to do something obviously harmful to themselves unless they perceive some good. No one touches shit unless they have to. The suicidal harm themselves to attain the good of ending whatever distress they feel makes life not worth living.

So the same thing goes for the temptations of dark powers. They have to offer some perceived good or there's no point. In SWTOR there's an arc where several times throughout it the spirit of the Sith Emperor in your head stops time just as something awful seems about to occur (in one case a loyal companion is about to be cut down) and offers to step in and save you if you'll just hand over control for "a moment."

Each time he does help; though in a rather blunt and destructive manner. But later on in the arc there comes a point where, if you gave in on the previous occasions you don't get a choice on the third... the Emperor takes over whether you want him too or not and not only attacks your enemy, but kills a bunch of innocents with collateral damage (by contrast if you refused the past offers of power to help you can also refuse this one... or give in because it does make the fight easier, but it remains your choice).

That I think is an excellent use of dark power and temptation. The first use is "free" and offers a good (saving an ally), but the second use (this time to end a fight that isn't difficult but is time consuming) cements that the Emperor gets to take over because he wants to the third time it comes up (where the temptation is an extra dose revenge on a villain who stole five years of your life).

Every dark power/gift needs an obvious good associated with it or its just not going to be anything but cartoon evil.

Frankly, if it were me as GM, I'd NOT drop dark powers on PCs AFTER they've performed evil acts... those guys don't need any incentives to damn themselves. I'd drop them onto good PCs in dire straits for no cost... the first time. The real price is that the dark powers will engineer conflicts that easily be solved if you use the power, but each time you use it, there's now a price and each time the price is higher, but the situations engineered require it be used more and more.

The idea is that each price is the commission of some evil. Trivial at first, eventually absolute horrors done in the name of whatever good they're trying to use the power for.

At what point NPC status sets in is up to the GM, but one of my Mage games had a PC end up falling entirely to the Nephandi bit by bit until, in order to keep the power they had they were going to murder an innocent man (they were literally told so), and they did so while still fully under player control (they failed because of the other PCs but at that point I put the PC out the group's misery by having the Nephandi smother him in his hospital bed with the final words being "I promised my Lord a soul out of this... one soul or another.") and player only then realizing they'd been playing the villain of the story all this time.

That's what the right sort of temptation can do, convince a player they're the hero of the story even as they commit atrocities because they're convinced the benefit... the power... will lead to a greater good. THAT is genuine horror right there.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 31, 2021, 04:52:46 PM
The gist of temptation in general though is it has to appear as some type of "good" or it's not a temptation. Generally sin/evil is the result of someone prioritizing a lesser good at the expense of a greater one.

Chris24601 - Thanks, that was great. I replied in the other thread focused on this topic...

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/temptation-and-corruption-in-horror-games/msg1174876/#msg1174876

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 31, 2021, 04:52:46 PM
The gist of temptation in general though is it has to appear as some type of "good" or it's not a temptation. Generally sin/evil is the result of someone prioritizing a lesser good at the expense of a greater one.

I kind of agree, but I also think there is a blurring here of good and morally good. I might steel out of desperate need, or out of greed for something I think will add value to my life, but I don't know that you would have to see it as a morally good thing in order to commit the sin. When I've met people who are capable of these kinds of things there seem to be a few things that can be going on. One is they see a moral good in what they are doing (a good example of this might be Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar, where he rationalizes his actions as moral good). This seems to be what you are describing. But I also think a person might instead of rationalize something as good, rationalize the morality around it as meaningless or bad (i.e. the person who made this rule that we can't steal just wants to keep people like me down). Another approach is the person's desire for something they know is bad, overrides their sense of guilt. So they may be torn, and have to come to terms with what they are doing, but they continue to do it because they choose to meet their own desire (I think a character like Henry Hill in Goodfellas fits this a bit----where he accepts things like killing, which he seems to have some moral qualms about, because they are part of the lifestyle that gives him the things he wants). I think very few people would say they are actively doing evil, they do tend to rationalize what they do. But there are also people who really believe something is wrong, and do it then deal with the guilt later. And some people are just crazy and built completely wrong (i.e. sociopaths who can kill, have no compunction but also no desire to rationalize or explain themselves)

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 31, 2021, 04:52:46 PM
The gist of temptation in general though is it has to appear as some type of "good" or it's not a temptation. Generally sin/evil is the result of someone prioritizing a lesser good at the expense of a greater one.
...

I disagree, temptation exists when it fills a "Need, Want or Desire" for something.

People are inherently their own worst enemies.

As human beings we are subject to the temptations of the flesh. And we too often allow short term thinking to hold sway over what would be best for us as individuals in the long run.

Also, everything that Bedrockbrendan has said as well.

Quote from: Jaeger on June 01, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 31, 2021, 04:52:46 PM
The gist of temptation in general though is it has to appear as some type of "good" or it's not a temptation. Generally sin/evil is the result of someone prioritizing a lesser good at the expense of a greater one.
...

I disagree, temptation exists when it fills a "Need, Want or Desire" for something.

People are inherently their own worst enemies.

As human beings we are subject to the temptations of the flesh. And we too often allow short term thinking to hold sway over what would be best for us as individuals in the long run.

Also, everything that Bedrockbrendan has said as well.

Those needs, wants and desires though are precisely the lesser goods being chosen over the greater goods that I'm talking about though. The pleasures of the flesh are a good (if you're Catholic then you believe God made sex pleasurable for a reason, its the abuse of it for selfish gain outside of a loving and committed relationship/marriage instead of as an act of mutual self-giving that is sinful, not sex).

Basically, if the Devil pops up offering shit sandwiches labeled as shit sandwiches, no one is going to take them up on that offer. But if he offers up a yummy yummy cheeseburger that's loaded down with growth hormones and other subtle toxins that destroy your health over the course of years, a lot of people will prioritize the "yummy cheeseburger" part and say of the toxins "that's only a problem later on and only if I eat too much. Right now its perfectly fine to enjoy the cheeseburger."

You can't tempt someone with something they don't see as a good thing.

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 01, 2021, 03:48:20 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 01, 2021, 01:17:23 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 31, 2021, 04:52:46 PM
The gist of temptation in general though is it has to appear as some type of "good" or it's not a temptation. Generally sin/evil is the result of someone prioritizing a lesser good at the expense of a greater one.
...

I disagree, temptation exists when it fills a "Need, Want or Desire" for something.

People are inherently their own worst enemies.

As human beings we are subject to the temptations of the flesh. And we too often allow short term thinking to hold sway over what would be best for us as individuals in the long run.

Also, everything that Bedrockbrendan has said as well.

Those needs, wants and desires though are precisely the lesser goods being chosen over the greater goods that I'm talking about though. The pleasures of the flesh are a good (if you're Catholic then you believe God made sex pleasurable for a reason, its the abuse of it for selfish gain outside of a loving and committed relationship/marriage instead of as an act of mutual self-giving that is sinful, not sex).

Basically, if the Devil pops up offering shit sandwiches labeled as shit sandwiches, no one is going to take them up on that offer. But if he offers up a yummy yummy cheeseburger that's loaded down with growth hormones and other subtle toxins that destroy your health over the course of years, a lot of people will prioritize the "yummy cheeseburger" part and say of the toxins "that's only a problem later on and only if I eat too much. Right now its perfectly fine to enjoy the cheeseburger."

You can't tempt someone with something they don't see as a good thing.

Something being morally good, and something being good because it is desirable or pleasurable are different things though. A delicious sandwich tastes good, and thus you would desire it. It isn't morally good or bad.

Quote from: Jaeger on June 01, 2021, 01:17:23 PM
I disagree, temptation exists when it fills a "Need, Want or Desire" for something.

People are inherently their own worst enemies.

I which case, simply give them power (with or without strings) and wait for it to corrupt them.

Replied about "temptations of the flesh" in the thread on temptations...

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/temptation-and-corruption-in-horror-games/msg1174967/#msg1174967

moving my reply to an older post in the thread to new topic...