Just because Strahd has some mercenaries of Vistani descent doesn't mean that all Vistani everywhere are evil. Van Richten wrote a whole book explaining that isn't true.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 05:53:50 PM
Just because Strahd has some mercenaries of Vistani descent doesn't mean that all Vistani everywhere are evil. Van Richten wrote a whole book explaining that isn't true.

Greetings!

BoxCrayonTales, you do realise--I hope--that I know that? I don't need a Van Richten's Book to tell me that "Gee, not all Vistani are evil minions of Strahd or other dark monsters?"

BCT, in my campaigns, I have had *good* Gypsies since *before* Ravenloft ever saw the light of day.

It's a theatrical, fantasy trope for the *game.* It doesn't have a damned thing to do with real people. You seem to have a difficulty comprehending this salient point. EVERYTHING in the Ravenloft is fantasy. None of it has any direct connection with the real world. Are cartoons or Anime or Manga dealing with the real world? Are Coyote's actually buying bombs from ACME to blow people up?

Again, this whole absolute insistence that elements in *THE GAME* have, somehow, real world connections, influences, and directives. They don't. It's a fucking fantasy game.

All of these sobbing, cuck bitches sniveling and crying about being "offended". WHAAA! WHAAA!

Do you notice how they go through damn near everything in D&D and critique it? Everything is offensive, racist, homophobic, misogynistic, white supremacist--how about shut the fuck up and go and make their own rainbow fucking hippo game that is all sweetness and sugar?

NORMAL gamers reject these crying, rainbow cultists. They smoke cigars and laugh at them, mocking them endlessly about how stupid, pathetic, and cucked they are. Normal gamers DON'T AGREE with the Marxist critiques of D&D. Normal gamers DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SJW TEARS!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Your wording was confusing me. That's why I said what I did.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 04:09:47 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:43:02 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Why not?

Why would they?

Because they're copied from racist stereotypes of Romani?

They are copied from the experiences that visitors and inhabitants had with wandering bands of people, many of whom were shady and crooked, that were encountered in Eastern European countries. If Romani were over-represented in those encounters, then that is on them and not the people who were relaying what they experienced.  I do like how, in light of how your questions progressed, you were fishing for a response so that you could express your opinion, making your questions unnecessary (if you were of the opinion that the Vistani were based on stereotypes, why ask?).  Shady behavior on your part.

Even if we consider Romani a "race" (which they aren't), the stereotype would be directed at their culture.  Which, since a culture is a choice (as no one is born with a culture), it is perfectly appropriate to criticize, parody, or stereotype a culture.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 06:59:32 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 04:09:47 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:43:02 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 23, 2021, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Do you think that the portrayal of the vistani played into harmful stereotypes of romani?

No.

Why not?

Why would they?

Because they're copied from racist stereotypes of Romani?

They are copied from the experiences that visitors and inhabitants had with wandering bands of people, many of whom were shady and crooked, that were encountered in Eastern European countries. If Romani were over-represented in those encounters, then that is on them and not the people who were relaying what they experienced.  I do like how, in light of how your questions progressed, you were fishing for a response so that you could express your opinion, making your questions unnecessary (if you were of the opinion that the Vistani were based on stereotypes, why ask?).  Shady behavior on your part.

Even if we consider Romani a "race" (which they aren't), the stereotype would be directed at their culture.  Which, since a culture is a choice (as no one is born with a culture), it is perfectly appropriate to criticize, parody, or stereotype a culture.

Okay then.

What is actually wrong with using stereotypes in a game of pure make believe anyway? Every game does it in one form or another. Or either it's just a case of filing the serial numbers off and renaming the so-called 'new' race.

I grew up with American 80s media. I love it... After watching all those great movies from the 80s I'm going to use any stereotypes I wish. Everything is fair game for creative purposes.

But for some bizarre reason the SJWs can't seem to distinguish between rpgs and real life, and that they feel the need to 'educate' all of us adults. Of course what they also can't seem to grasp is that just because we use a trope in a game, that does'nt mean we actually ascribe those attributes to 'real world people'. It's a preposterous concept at best.

I'm a big fan of Gothic Horror, and if I want to use gypsie stereotypes as groups of thieves, or for cursing people I'm going to use it. In the same way, I might use the Thugee from Temple of Doom.

It's all good for gaming material, as long as you don't use those stereotypes in real life to judge people. But we are all grown ups so we know that already, right?

So feel free to use whatever you want, and if some man-baby cries 'foul' just tell the to fugg off and mind their own.

By the way, I see shitty Irish stereo types all the time - Portraying us as drunk, uneducated fist fighter terrorists. I couldn't give a shite... Enjoy! Because I'll be doing it to you - but it's only in the name of gaming fun.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:53:50 PM
What is actually wrong with using stereotypes in a game of pure make believe anyway? Every game does it in one form or another. Or either it's just a case of filing the serial numbers off and renaming the so-called 'new' race.

I grew up with American 80s media. I love it... After watching all those great movies from the 80s I'm going to use any stereotypes I wish. Everything is fair game for creative purposes.

But for some bizarre reason the SJWs can't seem to distinguish between rpgs and real life, and that they feel the need to 'educate' all of us adults. Of course what they also can't seem to grasp is that just because we use a trope in a game, that does'nt mean we actually ascribe those attributes to 'real world people'. It's a preposterous concept at best.

I'm a big fan of Gothic Horror, and if I want to use gypsie stereotypes as groups of thieves, or for cursing people I'm going to use it. In the same way, I might use the Thugee from Temple of Doom.

It's all good for gaming material, as long as you don't use those stereotypes in real life to judge people. But we are all grown ups so we know that already, right?

So feel free to use whatever you want, and if some man-baby cries 'foul' just tell the to fugg off and mind their own.

By the way, I see shitty Irish stereo types all the time - Portraying us as drunk, uneducated fist fighter terrorists. I couldn't give a shite... Enjoy! Because I'll be doing it to you - but it's only in the name of gaming fun.

Greetings!

Rob Necronomicon, an Irish lad?

Cheers, Rob! I'm Irish, too. I agree with you entirely here. "Stereotypes", such as they are, are useful thumbnails, so to speak. Of course, there's elements of truth in most stereotypes, for everyone. They are largely based on many people's direct experiences with whoever. Just like with the Irish stereotypes, I tend to take it in stride, with a good measure of humour! Yes, Irish have historically been known to love alcohol too much, and to be often violent as well. In addition to hugely stubborn, proud, and unforgiving. The Irish have very long memories. Again, for creative purposes in a game, it's all fair game, and in good fun. I don't take such things personally. This seems to be a constant problem amongst the SJW types. They are always finding something, anything, everything, to be offended by. And also disturbing how so many of them can't seem to really distinguish between a game, and real life, real life people, and real opinions.

We have the whole Orcs controversy, the black-skinned, evil Drow Elves, and now, of course, Ravenloft. The SJW insanity just never ends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Your (and all historical canon) Ravenlofts (Ravens-loft?) may vary, of course...

But in my campaigns, I square the circle as following:

Being Vistani isn't a matter of bloodline, or tradition.  What Vistani are are people who travel from place to place, performing itinerant work the locals can't or won't do, whose true allegiances are mysterious, and who have ties to dark forces mundane and otherwise, and whom, it is agreed, messing with with anything other than overwhelming force is a bad, bad idea.

That is to say, PCs who pop into Ravenloft are Vistani by default, and immediately gain mysterious and fell powers around curses and the Evil Eye, a very concerning sixth sense when the mist comes down, and a series of mysterious coincidences which render their previous wardrobes unusable and replacement, very-colorful wardrobes made available, and need to deal with the prejudices of a group of superstitious, insular people whose last three attempts to open up to mysterious strangers all got townsfolk eaten.

---

And this also means that by default, the PCs can decide that the Demiplane of Dread sucks and that they can leave at any time.  And that is one thing that Curse of Strahd has really failed at generating horror.  PCs forced into a mysterious haunted house by the Will of Dread executed via misty impenetrable walls is not scary, except in the sense that the creeping inevitable end of the universe is scary.  When you have no options and no agency, your choices don't matter.  But when you can turn and walk away, at the small, small price of consigning a child to a fate worse than death, do you turn and hide, or do you gear up and march into that haunted house like Ellen Motherfucking Ripley going into the hive in the Aliens movie?

Horror that you choose to face has teeth.  And the fact that you can run for it actually adds to a lot of the horror in Curse of Strahd itself, I think; since by default the PCs are trapped and on the Plot Train, then they know that a final fight is coming, and that they can't escape it.  But if you tease Strahd as unbeatable regardless of PC preparation or plans, and showcase the others who thought they could face him and failed, and let the PCs know that they can flee at any time and if they do pull up to Castle Ravenloft with their preparation and plans, and they fail, it will be entirely their fault and that they could have avoided this, at the small, small price of leaving Barovia to its fate?

Then that choice means something.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 07:53:50 PM
What is actually wrong with using stereotypes in a game of pure make believe anyway? Every game does it in one form or another. Or either it's just a case of filing the serial numbers off and renaming the so-called 'new' race.

I grew up with American 80s media. I love it... After watching all those great movies from the 80s I'm going to use any stereotypes I wish. Everything is fair game for creative purposes.

But for some bizarre reason the SJWs can't seem to distinguish between rpgs and real life, and that they feel the need to 'educate' all of us adults. Of course what they also can't seem to grasp is that just because we use a trope in a game, that does'nt mean we actually ascribe those attributes to 'real world people'. It's a preposterous concept at best.

I'm a big fan of Gothic Horror, and if I want to use gypsie stereotypes as groups of thieves, or for cursing people I'm going to use it. In the same way, I might use the Thugee from Temple of Doom.

It's all good for gaming material, as long as you don't use those stereotypes in real life to judge people. But we are all grown ups so we know that already, right?

So feel free to use whatever you want, and if some man-baby cries 'foul' just tell the to fugg off and mind their own.

By the way, I see shitty Irish stereo types all the time - Portraying us as drunk, uneducated fist fighter terrorists. I couldn't give a shite... Enjoy! Because I'll be doing it to you - but it's only in the name of gaming fun.

Maybe it has something to do with self-confidence?

I find it easy to sneer at obsessions with pronouns because I don't put value on pronouns. I don't care about being misgendered. I don't even know why English has pronouns like it does, and I wouldn't mind if there weren't any.

But I'm not Romani, so I don't know what it is like to see your culture represented in media as a horror movie cliche or vilified on European news stations.

I don't know. I'm open to new evidence.

Masque of Red Death was definitely +1 Ravenloft. I'd argue MoRD was among the very best non-CoC horror RPGs.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

Nice to see the gypsies have evolved their grift for the modern age.

As for the Vistani, they are not the Roma any more than L5R's Rogukan is Japan or Warhammer's Bretonnia is France.

As with all products, if any fantasy creation offends you, vote with your dollars and/or your feet.

Or cry on Twatter until WotC grovels and fistfucks its own IP into idiot land.

My Ravenloft will always have Vistani who are useful, but dangerous. In a setting that's already full of places that fear outsiders, the Vistani truly divide the world into Us vs. Them, and its why they have survived and perhaps thrived in the Domains of Dread. 

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Rob Necronomicon, an Irish lad?

Cheers, Rob! I'm Irish, too. I agree with you entirely here. "Stereotypes", such as they are, are useful thumbnails, so to speak. Of course, there's elements of truth in most stereotypes, for everyone. They are largely based on many people's direct experiences with whoever. Just like with the Irish stereotypes, I tend to take it in stride, with a good measure of humour! Yes, Irish have historically been known to love alcohol too much, and to be often violent as well. In addition to hugely stubborn, proud, and unforgiving. The Irish have very long memories. Again, for creative purposes in a game, it's all fair game, and in good fun. I don't take such things personally. This seems to be a constant problem amongst the SJW types. They are always finding something, anything, everything, to be offended by. And also disturbing how so many of them can't seem to really distinguish between a game, and real life, real life people, and real opinions.

We have the whole Orcs controversy, the black-skinned, evil Drow Elves, and now, of course, Ravenloft. The SJW insanity just never ends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I am, born and bread! Top of the morning to ya', I didn't realize you were Irish bro'. You're based in the US right? There's a lot of us over there, in our second ancestral home.

Yeah, I'm with you here as well. There's definitely some grain of truth in a stereotype, if you look deep enough. I'd be the first one to say, that if you look at the 'Irish travelers' as one ethnic group. You can safely say, that wherever they go there is a spike in crime. This matches my own experience (and most everyone else's too!), but beyond that, the 'facts' speak for themselves. But people are reluctant to mention it (including the Police), because of being perceived as 'racist'. That does'nt mean every Irish Traveler is a thief of course.

But the sjws can't handle facts. LOL

I'm the same... Most of the Irish just take that on the chin - But then give it back too . But it's all just banter (another concept the sjws can't fathom). I went to college in the UK. And all my English mates would take the piss out of my accent and I'd do the same to them. But it was all good.

Yeah, those gimps need a reality check... As you say, all this bullshit about orcs and drow elves, etc. And not a jot of evidence to back it up, other than a few quasi mumbo jumbo opinions. Meh...

At the end of the day... It's about playing a game of make believe and having fun with your mates. I've no problem with them playing whatever unicorn pony games they want, it's none of my business.

And I still scratch my head everyday wondering what all this politics malarkey has to do with gaming? I'm an old leftie as I've said before, but I don't really care what someone's politics is, as long as they are decent people and good to game with. What else do you need?

Unfortunately, those sjw types like to stick their noses up everyone else's butt, and then tell them what to do and how to play. And we can't be having that... I'll not let some 'no mark' tell me what I can and can't do.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 08:42:28 PM

Maybe it has something to do with self-confidence?

I find it easy to sneer at obsessions with pronouns because I don't put value on pronouns. I don't care about being misgendered. I don't even know why English has pronouns like it does, and I wouldn't mind if there weren't any.

But I'm not Romani, so I don't know what it is like to see your culture represented in media as a horror movie cliche or vilified on European news stations.

I don't know. I'm open to new evidence.

Well, I can't speak for the Romani. But I've certainly faced Racism myself. While I worked as a bouncer in the UK (as a way to put me through art college) I was threatened to be stabbed on multiple occasions. Got into several scraps because of my accent (I never initiated the violence incidentally). There were a couple of other incidents too (that included stuff work too while I was over there). However, I must say that the majority of English people are very cool and it was just a small number of idiot degenerates.

So, I'm sure it's not too nice for the Romani.

That said, we are back to the whole make-believe thing again. When we are playing these games our 'intent' is not to hurt people, but just have some fun with a well established trope in the gothic horror genre. If people draw parallels to the real world when it's only a game (and you're simply emulating a genre) then they are a bit stupid imo.

I mean, does all that Hammer house stuff really represent the real world. It never did... And I don't think it should ever be taken too seriously.

Quote from: robertliguori on May 23, 2021, 08:33:18 PM
Ravenlofts (Ravens-loft?)

It would be an unkindness of Ravenlofts.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic.

Again, same thing happened with Tasha. Outrage marketing and scalpers combined. That is the diametric opposite of fantastic.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 23, 2021, 09:03:51 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 23, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
Rob Necronomicon, an Irish lad?

Cheers, Rob! I'm Irish, too. I agree with you entirely here. "Stereotypes", such as they are, are useful thumbnails, so to speak. Of course, there's elements of truth in most stereotypes, for everyone. They are largely based on many people's direct experiences with whoever. Just like with the Irish stereotypes, I tend to take it in stride, with a good measure of humour! Yes, Irish have historically been known to love alcohol too much, and to be often violent as well. In addition to hugely stubborn, proud, and unforgiving. The Irish have very long memories. Again, for creative purposes in a game, it's all fair game, and in good fun. I don't take such things personally. This seems to be a constant problem amongst the SJW types. They are always finding something, anything, everything, to be offended by. And also disturbing how so many of them can't seem to really distinguish between a game, and real life, real life people, and real opinions.

We have the whole Orcs controversy, the black-skinned, evil Drow Elves, and now, of course, Ravenloft. The SJW insanity just never ends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I am, born and bread! Top of the morning to ya', I didn't realize you were Irish bro'. You're based in the US right? There's a lot of us over there, in our second ancestral home.

Yeah, I'm with you here as well. There's definitely some grain of truth in a stereotype, if you look deep enough. I'd be the first one to say, that if you look at the 'Irish travelers' as one ethnic group. You can safely say, that wherever they go there is a spike in crime. This matches my own experience (and most everyone else's too!), but beyond that, the 'facts' speak for themselves. But people are reluctant to mention it (including the Police), because of being perceived as 'racist'. That does'nt mean every Irish Traveler is a thief of course.

But the sjws can't handle facts. LOL

I'm the same... Most of the Irish just take that on the chin - But then give it back too . But it's all just banter (another concept the sjws can't fathom). I went to college in the UK. And all my English mates would take the piss out of my accent and I'd do the same to them. But it was all good.

Yeah, those gimps need a reality check... As you say, all this bullshit about orcs and drow elves, etc. And not a jot of evidence to back it up, other than a few quasi mumbo jumbo opinions. Meh...

At the end of the day... It's about playing a game of make believe and having fun with your mates. I've no problem with them playing whatever unicorn pony games they want, it's none of my business.

And I still scratch my head everyday wondering what all this politics malarkey has to do with gaming? I'm an old leftie as I've said before, but I don't really care what someone's politics is, as long as they are decent people and good to game with. What else do you need?

Unfortunately, those sjw types like to stick their noses up everyone else's butt, and then tell them what to do and how to play. And we can't be having that... I'll not let some 'no mark' tell me what I can and can't do.

Greetings!

Outstanding, Rob! Yes, indeed I am Irish. I have some other nationalities too, but the Irish is prominent. My Irish branch of the family originally came from County Cork, in Southern Ireland.

What part of Ireland are you in, Rob?

It's especially sad with how the SJW's are corrupting our hobby, bringing in Marxist ideology, division, racism, and all the rest of their horrible nonsense. I'm also convinced that these jackasses--like Pundit has talked on so often--many of these slugs aren't even *gamers*. They are more like activists that like to gather around a "Gaming Coffeebook" and a few rulebooks and have "struggle sessions" where they search through every part of the book, looking for every idea or turn of phrase to be offended by, and then seek to start a Twitter mob to scream and cancel someone or otherwise harass them. Just like we can see with what these morons like Jessica Price and the rest of the rainbow hippo crew of writers that were assembled to create the Nu-Ravenloft book, few of these people have any actual experience in writing or game design, and demonstrate a hatred for traditional games, traditional gaming, and normal gamers. Especially reserving their most intense hatred and contempt for any gamers that are male, straight, and white.

It's all so disgusting and terrible. It makes me want to light up a cigar, get a strong drink, and rant with the boys.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK