Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 12:10:15 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:04:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 10:31:05 AM
Best thing is to vote with your wallet.

people do and 5e keeps chuggin along, they hate this.

I'm under no illusions that the 5e juggernaut won't stop because a few OSR guys are not buying them. But I'm going to support as many indie OSR devs as I can.

If nothing else - even just for my own sanity.

a fair stance my good man

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 12:10:15 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:04:26 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 25, 2021, 10:31:05 AM
Best thing is to vote with your wallet.

people do and 5e keeps chuggin along, they hate this.

I'm under no illusions that the 5e juggernaut won't stop because a few OSR guys are not buying them. But I'm going to support as many indie OSR devs as I can.

If nothing else - even just for my own sanity.

While I never adopted 5E, one thing that impressed me about it, and kept me watching from the sidelines (and also the reason I bought Curse of Strahd when it came out) was that 5th edition did seem genuinely designed to bring all the fan bases together. After years of people bickering over 4E and 3E, I appreciated the company realizing they could walk this line that would make the game palatable to the different camps (obviously not everyone jumped on board, myself included, but I know lots of old school gamers who happily play 5E; lots of 3rd edition fans who do, and lots of 4th edition fans who do). So when Ravenloft was announced, I thought it might be similar: there may be some changes to account for the present cultural climate, but I figured the game would also be designed to appeal to people who started on the original module, the black box, DoD, the S&SS version, etc. This version seems to reject a lot of things that many classic fans would want (speaking for myself, it definitely lost me when it shed the focus on classic and gothic horror). While I am not a big fan of making the whole setting islands of terror, that is at least a design decision I understand, and one that would lend itself well to the monster of the week style adventures Ravenloft excelled at...so those kinds of changes weren't the problems some of the more fundamental changes were for me. I certainly wouldn't have minded something that was intended to grab a more modern audience but didn't come off as hostile to the classic material.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:52:59 PMI actually pay attention to sales. I quoted them to you directly. If you are seeing anything different then let's see it. Put up or shut the fuck up already, yah nutter.

Tasha's is a no show in the Amazon top 100 whereas it's predecessors, Xanathar's and Volo's guides, are still top 10 sellers years after their release.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Role-Playing-War-Games/zgbs/books/270509

Yes, Van Richten's guide currently has the top spot. But for how long?

Quote from: mightybrain on May 25, 2021, 06:24:32 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:52:59 PMI actually pay attention to sales. I quoted them to you directly. If you are seeing anything different then let's see it. Put up or shut the fuck up already, yah nutter.

Tasha's is a no show in the Amazon top 100 whereas it's predecessors, Xanathar's and Volo's guides, are still top 10 sellers years after their release.

Yes, Van Richten's guide currently has the top spot. But for how long?

Do you have a link for that? I'm not seeing that when I check Amazon. What I see is:

Tasha's #316 in Books, #3 in D&D
Xanathar's #723 in Books, #6 in D&D
Volo's #1,365 in Books, #10 in D&D

Source: https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/16215/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_books

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2021, 06:32:17 PM

Do you have a link for that? I'm not seeing that when I check Amazon.

Sorry, I meant to post the link, then forgot.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Role-Playing-War-Games/zgbs/books/270509

The UK market obviously have different priorities.

Quote from: mightybrain on May 25, 2021, 06:34:43 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2021, 06:32:17 PM

Do you have a link for that? I'm not seeing that when I check Amazon.

Sorry, I meant to post the link, then forgot.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Books-Role-Playing-War-Games/zgbs/books/270509

Ah, that's the UK site whereas I was looking on the US site. But on the UK site, the regular Tasha's book doesn't seem to be available at all. The only two offerings are a special deal of Tasha's plus six dice bags, or an alternate cover variant.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dungeons-Dragons-Tashas-Cauldron-Everything/dp/B08XB4S163/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dungeons-Dragons-Cauldron-Everything-Alternate/dp/0786967072/

Quote from: FingerRod on May 24, 2021, 05:33:03 PM

The book has dropped down to #26 in their debut week. I have a hard time believing it will be more successful than any of the core books from Paizo, which you said when you suggested it never received this level of support. It is currently being outsold by a paperback of Rich Dad/Poor Dad and the Very Hungry Caterpillar. Other releases with similar dates are moving up the charts.

Second lowest rated was not referring to the total number of ratings, and there is no reason to talk down to me like I am an idiot. It has 3.7 stars right now, down from 3.9 two days ago, and it is now .1 from being the lowest rated product in the top 100. Originally it had 70 ratings, and now it has 84. It is not heading in a good direction. My guess is it stabilizes, and then creeps back up once more people who buy it know in advance what they are getting. And I don't mean this as a slight. There is obviously a market for this type of product. I differ from some of the others in that.

As a side note, the verified purchasers saying negative things about the book are likely NOT the same people you are disparaging here, so this is not just 25 people and their crazy beliefs.

D&D is the 800 lbs gorilla in the industry. I think of it like the entertainment industry movie releases. Blockbuster titles that flop still have big opening weekends compared to other films. But word of mouth brings the support to a grinding halt by the end of the weekend. That is a version of what is happening here.

3.7 is, by far, WOTC's lowest rated product on Amazon of any of their book releases. And while I completely agree with your assertion in your other post that Tasha's was well received (4.8 stars), you are incorrect on this one. The average consumer who is not active here, TBP, or on Reddit has been caught off-guard. They expected Gothic Horror and are getting something less. And yes, if WOTC continues to catch casuals off guard they will lose customers.

This will go down as the lowest rated main release when compared to anything that came before it.

It's at #51 now, apparently. Interesting.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

I think that there's two different things regarding the vistani in Ravenloft.

First the Vistani are obviously a parallel with Romani Gypsies. This is not an "orcs are actually black people" stupidity, it's obvious both from the explicit presentation in the setting as well as in the source material that inspires the setting.

So, what was WRONG about how the Vistani are presented is that they are made out to be collectively sinister and evil. Mind you part of that may be because in the original Ravenloft module everything was pretty much evil about the place. But the fact remains.

That should be changed. The Vistani should be treated, like all other humans, as Neutral. Vistani can end up in the service of evil, like all humans can, can commit crimes or kill or cheat or steal, but these are not inherent characteristics of the entire race. They are, like most humans, mostly selfish, but will have some outliers toward nobility or villainy.

Some of the cultural details the guy points out are certainly true also.

On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

This is absolute bullshit.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 24, 2021, 11:54:25 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 24, 2021, 10:14:22 PM
With regard to sales numbers, a bad addition to a successful series usually sells well.  People buy it in the expectation that it will be like previous products.  You see the effect in the next one in the series, where people either give it a pass expecting it to be bad like the last one, or give it a critical look before making a purchase.  Decent sales numbers in this case does not provide evidence that people like the product.

Here is a review compilation. Universally positive. And this is after Tasha's, which you guys also claimed was woke, and which also had and continues to have phenomenal sales.

Wow, who would imagine that Polygon and Kotaku would think that an SJW propaganda product was the greatest game for D&D ever?

Do you talk about how all the reviews for the Last Jedi by Salon.com, Feminist Frequency, and Buzzfeed were super positive too?

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 11:08:14 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 01:11:37 PM
There's a google doc written by a Roma discussing racism in the module. https://mobile.twitter.com/IlanaNight13/status/1277042876417888257

What are your thoughts?

I think that there's two different things regarding the vistani in Ravenloft.

First the Vistani are obviously a parallel with Romani Gypsies. This is not an "orcs are actually black people" stupidity, it's obvious both from the explicit presentation in the setting as well as in the source material that inspires the setting.

So, what was WRONG about how the Vistani are presented is that they are made out to be collectively sinister and evil. Mind you part of that may be because in the original Ravenloft module everything was pretty much evil about the place. But the fact remains.

That should be changed. The Vistani should be treated, like all other humans, as Neutral. Vistani can end up in the service of evil, like all humans can, can commit crimes or kill or cheat or steal, but these are not inherent characteristics of the entire race. They are, like most humans, mostly selfish, but will have some outliers toward nobility or villainy.

Some of the cultural details the guy points out are certainly true also.

On the other hand, the way WoTC treats the Vistani in Van Richten is pretty well disastrous. Instead of humanizing them, they have been further DEHUMANIZED, just in the other direction and in a way that wrecks the setting. The Vistani are now heroic kind loving people all beyond any faults. They are a completely open society of hippie travelers who adopt random people to join their 'family' because blood and culture mean nothing to them, they are totally tolerant and respecting of diversity, and of course now people cheer them everywhere they go, villagers in shitholes throughout Ravenloft celebrate when the Vistani come, to show how all of Ravenloft knows that Diversity Is Our Strength. I heard that it even said that the Vistani that helped Strahd and who Ezmerelda (now an androgynous character called "Ez") was first associated with were actually NOT VISTANI AT ALL (because Vistani can't be evil), and were really fake con artists just pretending to be vistani (I swear to god, this sounds like a lie told by an 9 year old trying to make up an explanation for how something got broken that doesn't involve them).

This is absolute bullshit.

I see.

I agree for the most part. However, I do think there were some potentially good ideas that were badly executed.

For example, the vistani could have adopted orphans, persons with disabilities, and teenage runaways. Such individuals are indoctrinated into the vistani culture, as you would expect. This is where the (false) stereotype of them kidnapping children comes from.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

*) Ravenloft tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely ("how do the people in this Island of Terror get supplies and food?"  "Uh,Dark Powers bring it in?"  "Isn't that just saying 'a Wizard did it'?"  "Do you want to play Dungeons & Vampires or not?!?!"  "Well, yeah, but we could do that back on the Sword Coast.").

*) It wants to be all multi-genre-yet-Gothic-horror, but it's stuck with the D&D ruleset.  So no modern day settings, or cyberpunk settings, or 19th Century Russian settings, or anywhere else you could slap Gothic decor and attitudes onto.  Imagine if Ravenloft supported, say, The Black Hole as an inspiration.  And the one time they tried to branch out ("Gothic Earth"), they couldn't decide how the heck it meshed with Ravenloft.

*) Even within its limited setting space, it still offers a ton of different domains, realms, clusters, islands, etc. each with its own "feel" and Darklord.  And then it proceeds to basically make the characters' actions meaningless.  You can't -actually- defeat the Darklord in question, because either the Darklord can't be permanently defeated or a new NPC will take their place (or both!).  It's the nihilism of Call of Cthulhu donkey punching the optimism of Dungeons & Dragons.

*) And while there's a lot of fun stuff written for it (really!), there's a lot of stuff that either doesn't work due to taste differences (Carnival) or because it's just kinda' dumb (the grell just hanging out in Death House is the most immediate example I can think of).

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 10:43:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 11, 2021, 11:08:18 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on May 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM
Ravenloft was stupid from the get go, only the maps were any good.  I've never understood people's obsession with it, but, every time someone creates a "Greatest classic D&D modules" list, there we see, I6 right up towards the top.

Of course, those lists are never really going to be repeated, like they were in the early 90s, because now old D&D and old D&D adventures are icky and have problematic things in them.

I always liked the concept of Ravenloft, but never found the execution done quite right.

*) Ravenloft tends to fall apart if you look at it too closely ("how do the people in this Island of Terror get supplies and food?"  "Uh,Dark Powers bring it in?"  "Isn't that just saying 'a Wizard did it'?"  "Do you want to play Dungeons & Vampires or not?!?!"  "Well, yeah, but we could do that back on the Sword Coast.").

*) It wants to be all multi-genre-yet-Gothic-horror, but it's stuck with the D&D ruleset.  So no modern day settings, or cyberpunk settings, or 19th Century Russian settings, or anywhere else you could slap Gothic decor and attitudes onto.  Imagine if Ravenloft supported, say, The Black Hole as an inspiration.  And the one time they tried to branch out ("Gothic Earth"), they couldn't decide how the heck it meshed with Ravenloft.

*) Even within its limited setting space, it still offers a ton of different domains, realms, clusters, islands, etc. each with its own "feel" and Darklord.  And then it proceeds to basically make the characters' actions meaningless.  You can't -actually- defeat the Darklord in question, because either the Darklord can't be permanently defeated or a new NPC will take their place (or both!).  It's the nihilism of Call of Cthulhu donkey punching the optimism of Dungeons & Dragons.

*) And while there's a lot of fun stuff written for it (really!), there's a lot of stuff that either doesn't work due to taste differences (Carnival) or because it's just kinda' dumb (the grell just hanging out in Death House is the most immediate example I can think of).

I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on May 27, 2021, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:48:36 AM
I don't think there are too many fans of Torg Eternity on this board, but its Orrorsh cosm is (IMO) a far better take on Domains of Dread-style Ravenloft's core concepts. If you want to go with some sci-fi techno-horror, then mix in some of the Tharkold cosm too.

I loved me some Torg back in the day (2ed is better-and-worse for me).  Orrorsh certainly comes closer to the "any genre, but with Gothic horror!" than Ravenloft managed.

(I kinda' wished the cosm got a proper source book, like Terra did, but I'm recalling it was mostly "dead" and would be of limited use without retconning?)

Orrorsh got a sourcebook (here on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/p/119854818?iid=184675563749). I had a GM who ran it a lot for us. Really great setting. I never ran it myself (I was a Ravenloft GM), but this one got a lot of respect from me as a player, and I would have picked it up to run myself, but didn't want to have any of the mystery spoiled for me as our GM ran quote a number of campaigns.