Please note, my "review" below has a very strong bias against D20 as a system and as a product in the marketplace.  That's just how I feel.  Have at me if you will.

I think I may have been the first person to buy the newly-released Star Wars Saga edition at Valet de Coeur yesterday. I went in there soon after the store opened and it was on the table with all the other newly stickered stuff, not yet shelved. Ironic because I really can't stand D20 and find Wizards products in general utterly uninteresting.

However, as I had posted before, it was a gift for my friend's 10-year old son, who is an absolute Star Wars maniac. He didn't really know what roleplaying was, so I thought this might be the perfect gateway drug. I am sad that it has to be through D20, but many others have survived to transition to better, freer forms of gaming, and he is a pretty bright, creative kid.

Anyways, here is my very brief review of the product, based on flipping through it, carefully, at home page by page and reading some bits.

First of all, the design of the book is really well done. Physically, when closed, it is square, 9" x 9", very black. Not too thick, but substantial enough. When opened, it lays flat nicely. I found it very attractive, very well done. Could attract the non-gamer.

The layout is also really well done. Obviously high production-value, but more than that there is a lot of breathing room around the text and most of the images are illustrations rather than photos. It is organized clearly into sections and you can see them along the side due to colour bleeds.

I guess it is some kind of evolution of D20, but it still seemed to me to be the same old restrictive class and level-based nonsense that no longer serves a purpose besides creating more close-minded gamers who can't wait to be allowed by the system or the creators of the system to have access to this new feat or that new talent. This quote in the introduction really depressed me:

"however, it boldly reinvents the game by allowing players to customize their characters in ways never before possible. Characters gain access to more feats as well as new suites of talents. Every level gained promises something new and exciting."

Oh thanks for finally allowing me to customize my character in some new ways oh great WotC Masters.

It almost always assumes the use of minis, which I also find discouraging and limiting. Just one sentence saying, "While minis are fun and can really help promote detailed, tactical combat, they aren't always necessary. An entire game can be played in your imagination!" would have been very welcome. On the other hand, they don't shove buying their minis down your throat, suggesting at least once that you can use other things as tokens. I suspect that this minis bias is not an attempt to sell their minis line but another unspoken assumption about how RPGs should be played.

I do suspect that if you are a fan of D20 based systems, you will find this system quite good, streamlined and cleaned up, a lot less cluttered and more consistent. There are fewer classes, but instead you chose Talent Trees within classes (which really isn't all that different, I guess, just better organized).

Overall, I think the Star Wars Saga edition will be good for the hobby. I think it will bring some new gamers into the fold and since they are coming from Star Wars geekery and may be led into D&D from there, they will probably at least be more open to settings and games other than just high fantasy, which is always a problem with people who only know D&D. I just wish that Wizards would open up their mind a little bit and encourage a wider range of playstyles in their products. I'm not saying their games should be designed radically differently, but given the power and influence they wield, it would be so nice if they could just say "there are alternatives to this."

Anyways, if you are a Star Wars fan and can stomach D20, I'd say your psyched. Otherwise, at least take a look at the book for its great style.  It encourages me to see Wizards marketing department trying something new.  I think it is mildly positive that they are willing to tinker with the D20 system to make it fit the genre better, but I wish they would go further and just let go of their constant top-level control of the system.

Meh, the impact outside the usual suspects is hugely overrated. I'm really excited about the game, but it won'T necessarily bring more non-gamers into the fold just because it's Star Wars. There have been two version before that and it's not like a newbie will look into Saga and say "Yes, this looks way less complicated!".

And I resent the "close-minded" remark.

Just to clarify, I don't mean that D20 players are close-minded.

I mean that D20 has a tendency to bring newbies into the hobby who are very stuck on both the D20 model and the Wizards product.  For many of them, D&D is roleplaying and D20 is just a way to do D&D in other genres.  The quote I mentioned in the introduction to SW Saga is a classic example of the kind of mindset I am talking about.

I'll be interested to see if Star Wars Saga is a test run for future revisions of D&D, as some have surmised. It sounds like it's a step away from what WotC reps claim their research shows what people want from the game.

Quote from: DrFaustIt sounds like it's a step away from what WotC reps claim their research shows what people want from the game.

Oh, how so?

Quote from: walkerpJust to clarify, I don't mean that D20 players are close-minded.

And "just those who start out playing D20" is any better?

Quote from: walkerpI mean that D20 has a tendency to bring newbies into the hobby who are very stuck on both the D20 model and the Wizards product.  For many of them, D&D is roleplaying and D20 is just a way to do D&D in other genres.  The quote I mentioned in the introduction to SW Saga is a classic example of the kind of mindset I am talking about.

Most people are influenced by their first gaming experience. I call that the "Mom's cooking syndrome". Nevertheless, most players I've met had no problems at all using other systems. Classes are just a tool for a certain kind of gaming experience. Most people realize that, just like they have no problems that _both_ minivans and sports cars exist.

"Brain damage" comments like those don't get us far.

Quote from: SosthenesNevertheless, most players I've met had no problems at all using other systems. Classes are just a tool for a certain kind of gaming experience. Most people realize that, just like they have no problems that _both_ minivans and sports cars exist.

Most players I have met have had major problems using other systems.  I have left groups because of this.  I run a con where we can't get the majority of gamers in this city to try something other than D20.  Our experiences differ.  Move on.

Quote from: DrFaustI'll be interested to see if Star Wars Saga is a test run for future revisions of D&D, as some have surmised.

One of the authors said that no such goal was presented to him and the goal was explicitly to capture the feel of SW which is a different thing than the feel of D&D, but it's quite likely that Wizards would be listening to any feedback.

So I think that those some that have surmised have surmised a bit too freely.

I don't think SW-SE is going to have any major change on the gaming market.

To me, there really isn't anything all that new, it's mostly just tweaking of the D20 system, similar to the way True20 tweaked the system. In the grand scheme of things the changes weren't necessarily monumental. I'm not saying anything negative about SW-SE or True20, I'm just saying they weren't all that different.

One major change I see is the odd shaped book. I wonder if it was designed to thwart electronic pirating, by making it harder to scan. If this was the reason behind the move and SW-SE don't really show up on the file sharing radar, then it wouldn't surprise me to see more books in this odd shape.

There wasn't that much buzz about the game before it's release, compared to buzz before D&D 3rd edition came out. I don't think there has really been any outstanding marketing done by WotC to get Sage Edition out there.

They are definitely trying to convince people that you need to buy the minis to play the game, and if the new version drives up Star Wars miniature sales more, then that will convince WotC to do the same thing with further D&D editions. I don't see any other game companies jumping on this bandwagon, however, because no one else has yet tried to tie collectible minis in with their RPG.

I believe that SW-SE is a definite trial run for future products like D20 Modern and D&D 4th edition. So, in that respect, if D&D4 looks like SW-SE, then SE will have an influence on the hobby as a whole (since D&D is by far the most popular game).

The bottom line is that I don't see anything terribly groundbreaking in the new system. It looks like a nifty, cleaned up version of D20 and has a lot of promise, but it just seems like a revision and not a real innovation.

Quote from: SosthenesMost people are influenced by their first gaming experience. I call that the "Mom's cooking syndrome". Nevertheless, most players I've met had no problems at all using other systems. Classes are just a tool for a certain kind of gaming experience. Most people realize that, just like they have no problems that _both_ minivans and sports cars exist.

This is my experience and observation as well. Of those who play D&D with me, only a small minority "only play d20". Indeed, I know more that "only play D&D" than "only play d20". My entire Spycraft group also plays Savage Worlds; my entire old D&D/D20 group played nWoD and BESM.

Quote"Brain damage" comments like those don't get us far.

Indeed.

Quote from: walkerpI mean that D20 has a tendency to bring newbies into the hobby who are very stuck on both the D20 model and the Wizards product.  For many of them, D&D is roleplaying and D20 is just a way to do D&D in other genres.  The quote I mentioned in the introduction to SW Saga is a classic example of the kind of mindset I am talking about.

I always find it funny to hear complaints about D&D as a beginner game melding new players perceptions of what RPGs are.

Here in Germany we have exactly the opposite problem - the main RPG (The Dark Eye) which brings most newbies into the hobby is from the Storytelling school of RPGs, and it brings us a lot of close-minded Swines who insist on such fallacies as "miniatures and battle-maps dumb down games", "roll-play vs role-play" or "dungeons are out-dated stuff from the 80s". Many need years to get stripped of those fallacies and enjoy adventure gaming, and most never overcome this tight box of thinking. I have to know that, I started with a crappy system for adventuring and needed to see functionable adventure games to get over this.

I wished D&D would play a bigger role here...

Meh, I've never had problems with TDE players switching to D&D, and if they didn't do it was mostly because of the huge investment they already made into the background. Sometimes I really wonder what strange groups you an Sett encountered... I still got my TDE miniatures set (cardboard coutouts) and lots of adventures with _huge_ amounts of dungeons.

I do know of a few isolationist WoD players, though. Talk about "parallel culture"...

Quote from: walkerpMost players I have met have had major problems using other systems.  I have left groups because of this.  I run a con where we can't get the majority of gamers in this city to try something other than D20.  Our experiences differ.  Move on.

The fuck we'll move on.  Coming into a board chock full of D&D fans and saying something like this:

Quote from: walkerpI guess it is some kind of evolution of D20, but it still seemed to me to be the same old restrictive class and level-based nonsense that no longer serves a purpose besides creating more close-minded gamers who can't wait to be allowed by the system or the creators of the system to have access to this new feat or that new talent.

That's asking for trouble, man.  You have a right to express your opinion, but we sure as hell won't be 'moving on' just 'cause you say so.  I'm not a big fan of the way Wizards sometimes seems to treat classes, levels, or minis as the natural roleplaying mode rather than simply as an historical artifact of the hobby that has traction.  But that doesn't stop classes, levels, and minis from powering a lot of kickass fun.

Quote from: GoOrangeI don't think SW-SE is going to have any major change on the gaming market.
[snip]
One major change I see is the odd shaped book. I wonder if it was designed to thwart electronic pirating, by making it harder to scan. If this was the reason behind the move and SW-SE don't really show up on the file sharing radar, then it wouldn't surprise me to see more books in this odd shape.

There wasn't that much buzz about the game before it's release, compared to buzz before D&D 3rd edition came out. I don't think there has really been any outstanding marketing done by WotC to get Sage Edition out there.

[snip]

The bottom line is that I don't see anything terribly groundbreaking in the new system. It looks like a nifty, cleaned up version of D20 and has a lot of promise, but it just seems like a revision and not a real innovation.

Hmm. Good points. I suspect that your prognosis is probably right, though it is early to tell. I do wonder why Wizards didn't do much marketing.  Simply a question of budget and they felt they would only get marginal returns trying to push beyond the existing SW D20 fanbase?  I'm curious how a geeky SW-loving kid like my friend's son would have never heard of the Star Wars tabletop RPG in the first place. I mean he is into every other possible iteration of the brand.  I guess the beast that is LucasFilm can barely turn an eye towards the rpg market so Wizards has no pull trying to get a bit of marketing push from that side of the equation. (quick check of the Lucasfilm site and there is no mentioning of the RPG on their licensing page, though it is quite limited).

Not so sure about the anti-pirating explanation for the new book size, though.  I mean you can scan any size.  I guess it limits re-printing from a home printer, but I am pretty sure this thing will be up in pdf form in no time.

I wonder how much of a vacuum the Saga designers worked in relation to the rest of the D&D and D20 crew at Wizards.  You almost got the feel that they were given a mandate to just make a Star Wars game with a D20 foundation.  And not to worry about D&D or 4the edtion.  I saw that in the earlier days of testing, there were some more radical changes suggested by the designers, though these seem to have been taken out (except maybe the damage track).

Quote from: jrientsThe fuck we'll move on.  Coming into a board chock full of D&D fans and saying something like this:



That's asking for trouble, man.  You have a right to express your opinion, but we sure as hell won't be 'moving on' just 'cause you say so.  I'm not a big fan of the way Wizards sometimes seems to treat classes, levels, or minis as the natural roleplaying mode rather than simply as an historical artifact of the hobby that has traction.  But that doesn't stop classes, levels, and minis from powering a lot of kickass fun.

jrients -- it's pretty clear that the only close-minded person in this thread is walkerp herself. Unfortunately, you cannot argue with a close-minded person, as they have a tendency to do stuff like this: