C'mon guys - can't recognize a troll?

Well this is going rather badly.

I want to discuss the impact Saga SW will have on the hobby/industry.

I have a bias against D20.  

I stated that clearly up front.

The pro-anti D20 arguments have been done to death.  I don't want to argue about it anymore and certainly not in this thread, where there is another topic at hand.  

Is this what you do here?  Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?  

Should I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20?  If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.

oof touchy today...

this is starting to sound like the old skipping record of console vs. PC arguments.
I never realized people cared so much about RPG's, beyond kicking around with friends and playing games...had no idea it was a lifestyle-choice.

FWIW....even though Walkerp stated up front he had an anti-d20 stance, i thought the review came off very well. YMMV.

Quote from: walkerpShould I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20?  If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.

*shrug* Besides giving ammo to some folks... feel free to write whatever you want. Some people despise certain games here so I don't see why d20 should be spared from my hat nose no limit.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: walkerpIs this what you do here?  Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?  

for the most part, yes. have you met Pundit?

Quote from: walkerpShould I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20?  If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.

no, any slight towards d20, real or imagined, would have elicited the same response.

Quote from: walkerpShould I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20?  If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.

Talking with prejudices held up high is a meaningful discussion to you? Sadly, that means you're in the right place 'round here, at least half the time...

Personally, I'm loath to starting a logical discussion if someone's coming with a premise that clearly influences the subject at hand, but doesn't want to include it in the debate. On that level you can talk about some touchy-feely crap, but that's no discussion, that's a soap box.

But I'm not here to argue about the merits of the D20 system.  I am here to make vague, poorly-informed predictions on whether or not Star Wars Saga will make any changes to our hobby as a whole, particularly in terms of bringing in new blood.  Where is the soapbox?  I posted my opinions on the game after a one-day perusal.  Now I am asking for speculation.

Look, if you guys really want me to dis on D20, I'll start another thread so you can all freak out and feel better about yourselves.  Will that help?  Is there any hope that we could discuss the topic at hand?

Now it is entirely possible that the entire topic is bogus and not worthy of any wasted keystrokes.  If that's the case, please, as I said before, move on.  Otherwise, can we please let go of my throwaway criticisms of D20 and start discussing whether this game, which to my mind seems to be a fairly big deal in that it is such a massive license and really the only truly new rpg product Wizards has released since Eberron, which really was only a setting, will stir up some energy, cause some excitement, whatever to the hobby/industry of roleplaying?

Quote from: walkerpBut I'm not here to argue about the merits of the D20 system.  I am here to make vague, poorly-informed predictions on whether or not Star Wars Saga will make any changes to our hobby as a whole, particularly in terms of bringing in new blood.  Where is the soapbox?  I posted my opinions on the game after a one-day perusal.  Now I am asking for speculation.

And part of one of your fears/predictions was that this will create another huge mass of "close-minded gamers". So how is this not relevant to the discussion?

[sniper]

D&D as well as D20 definitely create close minded gamers.
walkerp is one of them.

[/sniper]

Quote from: walkerpLook, if you guys really want me to dis on D20, I'll start another thread so you can all freak out and feel better about yourselves.  Will that help?  Is there any hope that we could discuss the topic at hand?

Hey you made some provocative statements about d20 in a d20 crowd. Just respond to the folks who get what you're sayin' and move on. This site could do without the drama

Regards,
David R

Mate, this is the third time you've posted this thread in one form or another and gotten pretty much the same sort of responses. Maybe that suggests that you should look at what you've written and take another tack? If you write confrontational things you'll get contrary answers.

Quote from: SosthenesAnd part of one of your fears/predictions was that this will create another huge mass of "close-minded gamers". So how is this not relevant to the discussion?

Fair enough.  So argue against that.  

I don't know.  This is the thing that interests me.  The point where I fear that SW Saga will do little for the hobby beyond bringing in more Wizards customers is the one where the baseline assumption is that class feats and talents are canonical and you as the consumer don't have the power to change them.  Now obviously, many people will.  But this does take a certain leap of logic on the part of the first-time gamer.  If the game were to say, "btw, you can change any of this if it doesn't fit the kind of game you want to play," that would be acceptable to my mind.  But it never says that.  It is constantly making the baseline assumption that these are the rules by logical extension, playing otherwise is breaking them.  For a 10-year old boy who has never seen another RPG that is a powerful assumption to make.  Say one of his buddies wants to play some combo that isn't in the existing class/talent tree structure.  There is a very good chance it will get vetoed by the GM or the group.  Until Wizards comes out with that setup as a prestige class.  

Now again, I think many imaginative and open-minded people will feel completely free to fudge the rules.  But I think there are many who will not and I think that it is discouraging that Wizards doesn't make this explicit in their rules sets.

On the other hand, I think that the whole structure I mentioned above comes partly out of the roots of the game, way back to D&D and the way classes were designed in a very tactical sense.  And I think those roots are profoundly connected to the high fantasy genre.  So the majority of (whom I label) close-minded D20 gamers came to the system through 3rd edtion.  A lot of those players can not even conceive of roleplaying in another genre.  To them, even D20 Modern is a major leap (now please don't get all up in arms about this comment; I know there are a ton who are totally the opposite but this phenomenon exists at least in New York and Montreal where I have played with these people).

So what I was thinking and this is complete airy-fairy speculation, but that by introducing gamers to roleplaying and the D20 system, outside of the genre of high-fantasy, there is a possibility that you might find people who are more ready to check out other genres.  So maybe the move to Spycraft, Mutants & Mastermind or even a generic system like GURPS or Savage Worlds is less of a leap for the person who has played SW Saga for a year, has a taste of roleplaying and wants to try something different.  Also, currently, there is a lot less setting material in Star Wars than there is in high fantasy, so its longevity might not be as strong, thus further encouraging players to look elsewhere for their gaming fun.

He's not troll.  He's a cool poster.  We need more people who don't like D&D to chime in around here.  This place is great, but dammit, I don't like 90% of the games we talk about.

He probably has some really legitimate beefs against D&D from a design perspective, and I for one want to hear them.

I'm tired of you guys all assuming this elitist superiority, don't read the threads about games you don't like.

Okay, walkerp, I'll take you at your word that you weren't stirring the pot with your comments about d20.  Will the new star Wars d20 bring new blood into the hobby?  I say no.  Making a game with a shiny license is not enough.  That's been proven time and time again.  You will sell your product to people who already like both the licensed IP and roleplaying.  And maybe, maybe a small number of new converts.

To get a large number of new people, enough to really matter to the hobby, you need one of the best licenses out there.  Star Wars when the second trilogy was an ongoing endeavor would be a good choice.  The Matrix when they were still making Matrix movies would be another.  Lord of the frickin' Rings would have been a gold mine in the hands of a mildly competent licensee.

But once you get that white hot license, it seems you have to market the hell out it to people who aren't already RPG dorks.  That means going through channels well beyond out little hobby.  So far I haven't seen any evidence that Wizards is doing that.  And I'm not entirely convinced that Star Wars is as hot as it was prior Revenge of the Sith coming out.

Quote from: David RHey you made some provocative statements about d20 in a d20 crowd. Just respond to the folks who get what you're sayin' and move on. This site could do without the drama

Didn't realize this was a D20 crowd.  I thought it was a site about Roleplaying games.    

Trying my best to keep the ship on course...