Please note, my "review" below has a very strong bias against D20 as a system and as a product in the marketplace. That's just how I feel. Have at me if you will.
I think I may have been the first person to buy the newly-released Star Wars Saga edition at Valet de Coeur yesterday. I went in there soon after the store opened and it was on the table with all the other newly stickered stuff, not yet shelved. Ironic because I really can't stand D20 and find Wizards products in general utterly uninteresting.
However, as I had posted before, it was a gift for my friend's 10-year old son, who is an absolute Star Wars maniac. He didn't really know what roleplaying was, so I thought this might be the perfect gateway drug. I am sad that it has to be through D20, but many others have survived to transition to better, freer forms of gaming, and he is a pretty bright, creative kid.
Anyways, here is my very brief review of the product, based on flipping through it, carefully, at home page by page and reading some bits.
First of all, the design of the book is really well done. Physically, when closed, it is square, 9" x 9", very black. Not too thick, but substantial enough. When opened, it lays flat nicely. I found it very attractive, very well done. Could attract the non-gamer.
The layout is also really well done. Obviously high production-value, but more than that there is a lot of breathing room around the text and most of the images are illustrations rather than photos. It is organized clearly into sections and you can see them along the side due to colour bleeds.
I guess it is some kind of evolution of D20, but it still seemed to me to be the same old restrictive class and level-based nonsense that no longer serves a purpose besides creating more close-minded gamers who can't wait to be allowed by the system or the creators of the system to have access to this new feat or that new talent. This quote in the introduction really depressed me:
"however, it boldly reinvents the game by allowing players to customize their characters in ways never before possible. Characters gain access to more feats as well as new suites of talents. Every level gained promises something new and exciting."
Oh thanks for finally allowing me to customize my character in some new ways oh great WotC Masters.
It almost always assumes the use of minis, which I also find discouraging and limiting. Just one sentence saying, "While minis are fun and can really help promote detailed, tactical combat, they aren't always necessary. An entire game can be played in your imagination!" would have been very welcome. On the other hand, they don't shove buying their minis down your throat, suggesting at least once that you can use other things as tokens. I suspect that this minis bias is not an attempt to sell their minis line but another unspoken assumption about how RPGs should be played.
I do suspect that if you are a fan of D20 based systems, you will find this system quite good, streamlined and cleaned up, a lot less cluttered and more consistent. There are fewer classes, but instead you chose Talent Trees within classes (which really isn't all that different, I guess, just better organized).
Overall, I think the Star Wars Saga edition will be good for the hobby. I think it will bring some new gamers into the fold and since they are coming from Star Wars geekery and may be led into D&D from there, they will probably at least be more open to settings and games other than just high fantasy, which is always a problem with people who only know D&D. I just wish that Wizards would open up their mind a little bit and encourage a wider range of playstyles in their products. I'm not saying their games should be designed radically differently, but given the power and influence they wield, it would be so nice if they could just say "there are alternatives to this."
Anyways, if you are a Star Wars fan and can stomach D20, I'd say your psyched. Otherwise, at least take a look at the book for its great style. It encourages me to see Wizards marketing department trying something new. I think it is mildly positive that they are willing to tinker with the D20 system to make it fit the genre better, but I wish they would go further and just let go of their constant top-level control of the system.
Meh, the impact outside the usual suspects is hugely overrated. I'm really excited about the game, but it won'T necessarily bring more non-gamers into the fold just because it's Star Wars. There have been two version before that and it's not like a newbie will look into Saga and say "Yes, this looks way less complicated!".
And I resent the "close-minded" remark.
Just to clarify, I don't mean that D20 players are close-minded.
I mean that D20 has a tendency to bring newbies into the hobby who are very stuck on both the D20 model and the Wizards product. For many of them, D&D is roleplaying and D20 is just a way to do D&D in other genres. The quote I mentioned in the introduction to SW Saga is a classic example of the kind of mindset I am talking about.
I'll be interested to see if Star Wars Saga is a test run for future revisions of D&D, as some have surmised. It sounds like it's a step away from what WotC reps claim their research shows what people want from the game.
Quote from: DrFaustIt sounds like it's a step away from what WotC reps claim their research shows what people want from the game.
Oh, how so?
Quote from: walkerpJust to clarify, I don't mean that D20 players are close-minded.
And "just those who start out playing D20" is any better?
Quote from: walkerpI mean that D20 has a tendency to bring newbies into the hobby who are very stuck on both the D20 model and the Wizards product. For many of them, D&D is roleplaying and D20 is just a way to do D&D in other genres. The quote I mentioned in the introduction to SW Saga is a classic example of the kind of mindset I am talking about.
Most people are influenced by their first gaming experience. I call that the "Mom's cooking syndrome". Nevertheless, most players I've met had no problems at all using other systems. Classes are just a tool for a certain kind of gaming experience. Most people realize that, just like they have no problems that _both_ minivans and sports cars exist.
"Brain damage" comments like those don't get us far.
Quote from: SosthenesNevertheless, most players I've met had no problems at all using other systems. Classes are just a tool for a certain kind of gaming experience. Most people realize that, just like they have no problems that _both_ minivans and sports cars exist.
Most players I have met have had major problems using other systems. I have left groups because of this. I run a con where we can't get the majority of gamers in this city to try something other than D20. Our experiences differ. Move on.
Quote from: DrFaustI'll be interested to see if Star Wars Saga is a test run for future revisions of D&D, as some have surmised.
One of the authors said that no such goal was presented to him and the goal was explicitly to capture the feel of SW which is a different thing than the feel of D&D, but it's quite likely that Wizards would be listening to any feedback.
So I think that those some that have surmised have surmised a bit too freely.
I don't think SW-SE is going to have any major change on the gaming market.
To me, there really isn't anything all that new, it's mostly just tweaking of the D20 system, similar to the way True20 tweaked the system. In the grand scheme of things the changes weren't necessarily monumental. I'm not saying anything negative about SW-SE or True20, I'm just saying they weren't all that different.
One major change I see is the odd shaped book. I wonder if it was designed to thwart electronic pirating, by making it harder to scan. If this was the reason behind the move and SW-SE don't really show up on the file sharing radar, then it wouldn't surprise me to see more books in this odd shape.
There wasn't that much buzz about the game before it's release, compared to buzz before D&D 3rd edition came out. I don't think there has really been any outstanding marketing done by WotC to get Sage Edition out there.
They are definitely trying to convince people that you need to buy the minis to play the game, and if the new version drives up Star Wars miniature sales more, then that will convince WotC to do the same thing with further D&D editions. I don't see any other game companies jumping on this bandwagon, however, because no one else has yet tried to tie collectible minis in with their RPG.
I believe that SW-SE is a definite trial run for future products like D20 Modern and D&D 4th edition. So, in that respect, if D&D4 looks like SW-SE, then SE will have an influence on the hobby as a whole (since D&D is by far the most popular game).
The bottom line is that I don't see anything terribly groundbreaking in the new system. It looks like a nifty, cleaned up version of D20 and has a lot of promise, but it just seems like a revision and not a real innovation.
Quote from: SosthenesMost people are influenced by their first gaming experience. I call that the "Mom's cooking syndrome". Nevertheless, most players I've met had no problems at all using other systems. Classes are just a tool for a certain kind of gaming experience. Most people realize that, just like they have no problems that _both_ minivans and sports cars exist.
This is my experience and observation as well. Of those who play D&D with me, only a small minority "only play d20". Indeed, I know more that "only play D&D" than "only play d20". My entire Spycraft group also plays Savage Worlds; my entire old D&D/D20 group played nWoD and BESM.
Quote"Brain damage" comments like those don't get us far.
Indeed.
Quote from: walkerpI mean that D20 has a tendency to bring newbies into the hobby who are very stuck on both the D20 model and the Wizards product. For many of them, D&D is roleplaying and D20 is just a way to do D&D in other genres. The quote I mentioned in the introduction to SW Saga is a classic example of the kind of mindset I am talking about.
I always find it funny to hear complaints about D&D as a beginner game melding new players perceptions of what RPGs are.
Here in Germany we have exactly the opposite problem - the main RPG (The Dark Eye) which brings most newbies into the hobby is from the Storytelling school of RPGs, and it brings us a lot of close-minded Swines who insist on such fallacies as "miniatures and battle-maps dumb down games", "roll-play vs role-play" or "dungeons are out-dated stuff from the 80s". Many need years to get stripped of those fallacies and enjoy adventure gaming, and most never overcome this tight box of thinking. I have to know that, I started with a crappy system for adventuring and needed to see functionable adventure games to get over this.
I wished D&D would play a bigger role here...
Meh, I've never had problems with TDE players switching to D&D, and if they didn't do it was mostly because of the huge investment they already made into the background. Sometimes I really wonder what strange groups you an Sett encountered... I still got my TDE miniatures set (cardboard coutouts) and lots of adventures with _huge_ amounts of dungeons.
I do know of a few isolationist WoD players, though. Talk about "parallel culture"... ;)
Quote from: walkerpMost players I have met have had major problems using other systems. I have left groups because of this. I run a con where we can't get the majority of gamers in this city to try something other than D20. Our experiences differ. Move on.
The fuck we'll move on. Coming into a board chock full of D&D fans and saying something like this:
Quote from: walkerpI guess it is some kind of evolution of D20, but it still seemed to me to be the same old restrictive class and level-based nonsense that no longer serves a purpose besides creating more close-minded gamers who can't wait to be allowed by the system or the creators of the system to have access to this new feat or that new talent.
That's asking for trouble, man. You have a right to express your opinion, but we sure as hell won't be 'moving on' just 'cause you say so. I'm not a big fan of the way Wizards sometimes seems to treat classes, levels, or minis as the natural roleplaying mode rather than simply as an historical artifact of the hobby that has traction. But that doesn't stop classes, levels, and minis from powering a lot of kickass fun.
Quote from: GoOrangeI don't think SW-SE is going to have any major change on the gaming market.
[snip]
One major change I see is the odd shaped book. I wonder if it was designed to thwart electronic pirating, by making it harder to scan. If this was the reason behind the move and SW-SE don't really show up on the file sharing radar, then it wouldn't surprise me to see more books in this odd shape.
There wasn't that much buzz about the game before it's release, compared to buzz before D&D 3rd edition came out. I don't think there has really been any outstanding marketing done by WotC to get Sage Edition out there.
[snip]
The bottom line is that I don't see anything terribly groundbreaking in the new system. It looks like a nifty, cleaned up version of D20 and has a lot of promise, but it just seems like a revision and not a real innovation.
Hmm. Good points. I suspect that your prognosis is probably right, though it is early to tell. I do wonder why Wizards didn't do much marketing. Simply a question of budget and they felt they would only get marginal returns trying to push beyond the existing SW D20 fanbase? I'm curious how a geeky SW-loving kid like my friend's son would have never heard of the Star Wars tabletop RPG in the first place. I mean he is into every other possible iteration of the brand. I guess the beast that is LucasFilm can barely turn an eye towards the rpg market so Wizards has no pull trying to get a bit of marketing push from that side of the equation. (quick check of the Lucasfilm site and there is no mentioning of the RPG on their licensing page, though it is quite limited).
Not so sure about the anti-pirating explanation for the new book size, though. I mean you can scan any size. I guess it limits re-printing from a home printer, but I am pretty sure this thing will be up in pdf form in no time.
I wonder how much of a vacuum the Saga designers worked in relation to the rest of the D&D and D20 crew at Wizards. You almost got the feel that they were given a mandate to just make a Star Wars game with a D20 foundation. And not to worry about D&D or 4the edtion. I saw that in the earlier days of testing, there were some more radical changes suggested by the designers, though these seem to have been taken out (except maybe the damage track).
Quote from: jrientsThe fuck we'll move on. Coming into a board chock full of D&D fans and saying something like this:
That's asking for trouble, man. You have a right to express your opinion, but we sure as hell won't be 'moving on' just 'cause you say so. I'm not a big fan of the way Wizards sometimes seems to treat classes, levels, or minis as the natural roleplaying mode rather than simply as an historical artifact of the hobby that has traction. But that doesn't stop classes, levels, and minis from powering a lot of kickass fun.
jrients -- it's pretty clear that the only close-minded person in this thread is walkerp herself. Unfortunately, you cannot argue with a close-minded person, as they have a tendency to do stuff like this:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s279/ElectroKitty/canthearyou.jpg)
C'mon guys - can't recognize a troll?
Well this is going rather badly.
I want to discuss the impact Saga SW will have on the hobby/industry.
I have a bias against D20.
I stated that clearly up front.
The pro-anti D20 arguments have been done to death. I don't want to argue about it anymore and certainly not in this thread, where there is another topic at hand.
Is this what you do here? Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?
Should I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20? If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.
oof touchy today...
this is starting to sound like the old skipping record of console vs. PC arguments.
I never realized people cared so much about RPG's, beyond kicking around with friends and playing games...had no idea it was a lifestyle-choice. :D
FWIW....even though Walkerp stated up front he had an anti-d20 stance, i thought the review came off very well. YMMV.
Quote from: walkerpShould I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20? If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.
*shrug* Besides giving ammo to some folks... feel free to write whatever you want. Some people despise certain games here so I don't see why
d20 should be spared from
my hat nose no limit.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: walkerpIs this what you do here? Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?
for the most part, yes. have you met Pundit?
Quote from: walkerpShould I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20? If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.
no, any slight towards d20, real or imagined, would have elicited the same response.
Quote from: walkerpShould I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20? If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.
Talking with prejudices held up high is a meaningful discussion to you? Sadly, that means you're in the right place 'round here, at least half the time...
Personally, I'm loath to starting a logical discussion if someone's coming with a premise that clearly influences the subject at hand, but doesn't want to include it in the debate. On that level you can talk about some touchy-feely crap, but that's no discussion, that's a soap box.
But I'm not here to argue about the merits of the D20 system. I am here to make vague, poorly-informed predictions on whether or not Star Wars Saga will make any changes to our hobby as a whole, particularly in terms of bringing in new blood. Where is the soapbox? I posted my opinions on the game after a one-day perusal. Now I am asking for speculation.
Look, if you guys really want me to dis on D20, I'll start another thread so you can all freak out and feel better about yourselves. Will that help? Is there any hope that we could discuss the topic at hand?
Now it is entirely possible that the entire topic is bogus and not worthy of any wasted keystrokes. If that's the case, please, as I said before, move on. Otherwise, can we please let go of my throwaway criticisms of D20 and start discussing whether this game, which to my mind seems to be a fairly big deal in that it is such a massive license and really the only truly new rpg product Wizards has released since Eberron, which really was only a setting, will stir up some energy, cause some excitement, whatever to the hobby/industry of roleplaying?
Quote from: walkerpBut I'm not here to argue about the merits of the D20 system. I am here to make vague, poorly-informed predictions on whether or not Star Wars Saga will make any changes to our hobby as a whole, particularly in terms of bringing in new blood. Where is the soapbox? I posted my opinions on the game after a one-day perusal. Now I am asking for speculation.
And part of one of your fears/predictions was that this will create another huge mass of "close-minded gamers". So how is this not relevant to the discussion?
[sniper]
D&D as well as D20 definitely create close minded gamers.
walkerp is one of them.
[/sniper]
Quote from: walkerpLook, if you guys really want me to dis on D20, I'll start another thread so you can all freak out and feel better about yourselves. Will that help? Is there any hope that we could discuss the topic at hand?
Hey you made some provocative statements about
d20 in a
d20 crowd. Just respond to the folks who get what you're sayin' and move on. This site could do without the drama :D
Regards,
David R
Mate, this is the third time you've posted this thread in one form or another and gotten pretty much the same sort of responses. Maybe that suggests that you should look at what you've written and take another tack? If you write confrontational things you'll get contrary answers.
Quote from: SosthenesAnd part of one of your fears/predictions was that this will create another huge mass of "close-minded gamers". So how is this not relevant to the discussion?
Fair enough. So argue against that.
I don't know. This is the thing that interests me. The point where I fear that SW Saga will do little for the hobby beyond bringing in more Wizards customers is the one where the baseline assumption is that class feats and talents are canonical and you as the consumer don't have the power to change them. Now obviously, many people will. But this does take a certain leap of logic on the part of the first-time gamer. If the game were to say, "btw, you can change any of this if it doesn't fit the kind of game you want to play," that would be acceptable to my mind. But it never says that. It is constantly making the baseline assumption that these are the rules by logical extension, playing otherwise is breaking them. For a 10-year old boy who has never seen another RPG that is a powerful assumption to make. Say one of his buddies wants to play some combo that isn't in the existing class/talent tree structure. There is a very good chance it will get vetoed by the GM or the group. Until Wizards comes out with that setup as a prestige class.
Now again, I think many imaginative and open-minded people will feel completely free to fudge the rules. But I think there are many who will not and I think that it is discouraging that Wizards doesn't make this explicit in their rules sets.
On the other hand, I think that the whole structure I mentioned above comes partly out of the roots of the game, way back to D&D and the way classes were designed in a very tactical sense. And I think those roots are profoundly connected to the high fantasy genre. So the majority of (whom I label) close-minded D20 gamers came to the system through 3rd edtion. A lot of those players can not even conceive of roleplaying in another genre. To them, even D20 Modern is a major leap (now please don't get all up in arms about this comment; I know there are a ton who are totally the opposite but this phenomenon exists at least in New York and Montreal where I have played with these people).
So what I was thinking and this is complete airy-fairy speculation, but that by introducing gamers to roleplaying and the D20 system, outside of the genre of high-fantasy, there is a possibility that you might find people who are more ready to check out other genres. So maybe the move to Spycraft, Mutants & Mastermind or even a generic system like GURPS or Savage Worlds is less of a leap for the person who has played SW Saga for a year, has a taste of roleplaying and wants to try something different. Also, currently, there is a lot less setting material in Star Wars than there is in high fantasy, so its longevity might not be as strong, thus further encouraging players to look elsewhere for their gaming fun.
He's not troll. He's a cool poster. We need more people who don't like D&D to chime in around here. This place is great, but dammit, I don't like 90% of the games we talk about.
He probably has some really legitimate beefs against D&D from a design perspective, and I for one want to hear them.
I'm tired of you guys all assuming this elitist superiority, don't read the threads about games you don't like.
Okay, walkerp, I'll take you at your word that you weren't stirring the pot with your comments about d20. Will the new star Wars d20 bring new blood into the hobby? I say no. Making a game with a shiny license is not enough. That's been proven time and time again. You will sell your product to people who already like both the licensed IP and roleplaying. And maybe, maybe a small number of new converts.
To get a large number of new people, enough to really matter to the hobby, you need one of the best licenses out there. Star Wars when the second trilogy was an ongoing endeavor would be a good choice. The Matrix when they were still making Matrix movies would be another. Lord of the frickin' Rings would have been a gold mine in the hands of a mildly competent licensee.
But once you get that white hot license, it seems you have to market the hell out it to people who aren't already RPG dorks. That means going through channels well beyond out little hobby. So far I haven't seen any evidence that Wizards is doing that. And I'm not entirely convinced that Star Wars is as hot as it was prior Revenge of the Sith coming out.
Quote from: David RHey you made some provocative statements about d20 in a d20 crowd. Just respond to the folks who get what you're sayin' and move on. This site could do without the drama :D
Didn't realize this was a D20 crowd. I thought it was a site about Roleplaying games. :(
Trying my best to keep the ship on course...
Will SW Saga bringin more new gamers? Some but not that many.
Wil it change the gaming community? Maybe. If WotC takes Saga and makes 4E based on it, yes. If not, No.
The problem, walkerp, is that your argument is basically thus:
1) I hate d20.
2) Star Wars is d20.
3) d20 games have classes and that's restrictive. BTW, I hate d20.
4) Therefore Star Wars sucks.
5) Did I mention how much I hate d20?
Quote from: walkerpDidn't realize this was a D20 crowd. I thought it was a site about Roleplaying games. :(
Trying my best to keep the ship on course...
Well, most people here play a lot of different games. We have a lot of people who plat d20 here. We have a few very vocal people here that think d20 is best thing since Gygax. :haw:
Quote from: McrowWell, most people here play a lot of different games. We have a lot of people who plat d20 here. We have a few very vocal people here that think d20 is best thing since Gygax. :haw:
Gygax ? I thought it was all about Mearls and his penis...
Regards,
David R
Quote from: McrowWell, most people here play a lot of different games. We have a lot of people who plat d20 here. We have a few very vocal people here that think d20 is best thing since Gygax. :haw:
Some of us actually rather like d20 *and* other gaming systems. I very much enjoy the new Saga rules, but I'll probably still play d6 Star Wars once in a while, just for kicks. I'm starting in a Serenity game next week, in fact, and it looks fun, too.
Quote from: jrientsBut once you get that white hot license, it seems you have to market the hell out it to people who aren't already RPG dorks. That means going through channels well beyond out little hobby. So far I haven't seen any evidence that Wizards is doing that. And I'm not entirely convinced that Star Wars is as hot as it was prior Revenge of the Sith coming out.
Yes, generally agreed with all that you said. The marketing dollars are definitely not there. It almost seems that it was barely marketed to the gaming community. I think Wizards has such a large fan base and such a close communication with them, that they think they don't have to do much more than tell them what is coming next on their website. It works, but it is not a recipe for growth. Though, to be fair, I bet they have a hell of a time getting marketing and promotional money from Hasbro.
And the license is getting old, for sure. But it certainly has legs. This is what also surprised me, how into Star Wars this kid was. I mean he was what, 7, when the last movie came out! And this kid is into it. I mean he went around his school saying he was the Star Wars king and this other kid called him out on it and they had a trivia contest in the lunch room and he won. It almost sounded semi-official. Obviously, anecdotal evidence, but there is something there that keeps the kiddies yanking at their parents wallets. Isn't there going to be a TV show coming out soon?
I also think that the canonical nature of the setting is inherently limiting. As much as Wizards would like to force everyone to play Eberron, the cat is already out of the bag for D&D. One of the hugest parts of the game is that you can create your own world. You can't really do that in Star Wars, at least not to the same degree.
Quote from: ElectroKittyThe problem, walkerp, is that your argument is basically thus:
1) I hate d20.
2) Star Wars is d20.
3) d20 games have classes and that's restrictive. BTW, I hate d20.
4) Therefore Star Wars sucks.
5) Did I mention how much I hate d20?
:confused:
Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?
Quote from: walkerp:confused:
Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?
yes there is . :D
Great title for a topic...terrible thread :(. What a shame.
Quote from: grubmanGreat title for a topic...terrible thread :(. What a shame.
Well perhaps you could add something constructive, Grubman? I'm sure you have some interesting input on this issue. I followed some of your arguments about minis over on the D20 suburb on rpg.net with interest and they in some way inspired me to start this discussion (with little luck so far, but I haven't given up hope yet).
Quote from: walkerp:confused:
Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?
Yes there is .
As to
STAR WARS: THE RPG? What the hell....anything that sparks interest in RPGs is fine with me.
Where I work it is rather "hot" right now. We have plenty of regular customers that are still playing SW with their older
D20 corebooks ...OR they asre biying the
TSR/WOTCminiatures to use with their
D6 SWrulebooks.
- Ed C.
Quote from: walkerp:confused:
Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?
Although you probably won't end up reading this, I think you just proved the point of my first post in this thread.
To answer the question posed in the title:
Will SW Saga have an impact on the hobby overall?
Some. It will likely affect the rules for later flavors of d20 and d20, whether you like it or not, is a substantial part of the hobby in general.
Will it work as a "stepping stone" to other RPGs?
Most definitely. The rules are streamlined, easy to use, and sensible. Sure, the book is full of typos, but that's expected coming from WotC.
Quote from: walkerpWell perhaps you could add something constructive, Grubman? I'm sure you have some interesting input on this issue. I followed some of your arguments about minis over on the D20 suburb on rpg.net with interest and they in some way inspired me to start this discussion (with little luck so far, but I haven't given up hope yet).
Saga is definitely going to impact D20 and WotCs products...and in a way the mainstream market. I don't think it will be a surprise to them (Wizards). WotC isn't a trend setter, they wait to see what the trends are...then do them 100% better than everyone else. That's why they are on top and remain there.
The movement to simple streamlined, yet crunchy, games has been going on for a while. I saw this trend and applauded it some time back...I also commented many times that I wished Wizards would jump on the wagon...especially when I saw how well their SWCMG worked, in comparison to the more convoluted D&DCMG Wizards simply allowed other game companies to experiment, break the ground, and prepare the path with the concept before they swooped in (with saga).
When it comes to affecting the "industry" there really is only Wizards, with an occasional ripple by WW.
Saga, with its tight, simple, streamlined, crunchy rules and game element miniature use is the future of "mainstream" role playing.
Others are going to point fingers and call me nuts right now...but 20+ years ago I was claiming that Arnold Schwarzennegger would be president some day and Rap music would make it to mainstream to the same kind of laughter.
OK, I'll bite:
Quote from: walkerpSo the majority of (whom I label) close-minded D20 gamers came to the system through 3rd edtion. A lot of those players can not even conceive of roleplaying in another genre.
Or, perhaps, they just don't want to. That doesn't make them close minded (contrary to J Arcane's perspective), it just makes them happy with the game they are playing, or happy with the genre (high fantasy).
Quote from: walkerpTo them, even D20 Modern is a major leap (now please don't get all up in arms about this comment; I know there are a ton who are totally the opposite but this phenomenon exists at least in New York and Montreal where I have played with these people).
So now we get to it: you've played with people who don't want to/can't see how to play beyond d20 High Fantasy. And then you've extrapolated that, whether or not intentionally, to a much broader group.
Quote from: walkerpSo what I was thinking and this is complete airy-fairy speculation, but that by introducing gamers to roleplaying and the D20 system, outside of the genre of high-fantasy, there is a possibility that you might find people who are more ready to check out other genres.
Ahhh..so really, it's just the D&D players who are close minded. I get it now.
Quote from: walkerpSo maybe the move to Spycraft, Mutants & Mastermind or even a generic system like GURPS or Savage Worlds is less of a leap for the person who has played SW Saga for a year, has a taste of roleplaying and wants to try something different.
Believe it or not, there are people that
already do this with d20 High Fantasy. Yup, that's right, people who started with 3rd Edition, or at teh very least came back to gaming through d20/3.x and who branch out into other games.
Quote from: walkerpAlso, currently, there is a lot less setting material in Star Wars than there is in high fantasy, so its longevity might not be as strong, thus further encouraging players to look elsewhere for their gaming fun.
This is great. So you're looking fondly on the weakness of a setting to encourage other people, again, to play the kinds of games you like.
I think there's a German word for that, but I can't spell it.
See, Walker, you base your "review" of whether or not SW - SE will have any impact on the hobby through the lense of your dislike of d20. If you'd come at it without that, you might just get a different response.
Now here's where I get nasty. See, I don't think you can. Because your definition of "helping the hobby" is to bring in new gamers that
play the games you like to play. You don't mind if they start out with that d20 system, as long as they
then move on to the games you like to play.
Whereas, as far as I can tell even with the d20 "bias" some people around here have (leaving aside the penises of game designers for now), people around here don't equate helping the hobby with bringing in players who play games they like; it's just about bringing in new blood.
So I ask: If SW SE brings in a lot of new players who, for whatever reason, decide not to branch out into the kinds of games you like, is that good for the hobby? Or will you just lament the fact that it brought in a bunch more of those "close-minded d20 players"?
You can commence with the adding of me to your IL.
Quote from: David RGygax ? I thought it was all about Mearls and his penis...
Regards,
David R
That's something that would definitely go in the Christmas cards this year.
"... And in June, Mike found a web site dedicated to discussions about his penis. How droll!"
On a more serious note, classes and levels are a necessary component to good game design in many cases. They provide focus, useful comparative measures, and baselines for future design.
The objection that classes are too restrictive is bogus if taken wtihout looking at the context of a design. OF COURSE classes and levels are restrictive. That's the point. You can't play a helpless librarian in D&D because D&D is a game about heroic dungeon exploration.
By the same token, Call of Cthulhu doesn't have a page of rules for the knitting skill. Travellers doesn't include rules for playing a ghost. Attacking a mechanic in isolation is a waste of time.
Quote from: grubmanOthers are going to point fingers and call me nuts right now...but 20+ years ago I was claiming that Arnold Schwarzennegger would be president some day and Rap music would make it to mainstream to the same kind of laughter.
On a scale of one to ten, how crunchy *is* Arnold?
Well if local sales of Saga edition is any indication, it is selling Very Very well.
The Source, from what I have been told, sold 25 copies the first day + 30 pre ordered copies.
Quote from: ElectroKittyOn a scale of one to ten, how crunchy *is* Arnold?
If you followed Arnolds career from his early years, you would see that there are few people with his kind of ambition and drive. Sure, he was a bodybuilder, but he was also able to apply this to every element of his life.
He expressed an interest in politics early on, and you could see him slowly gaining the respect of politicians with his strong viewpoints and charismatic charm...something that also led to his marriage into one of the most popular political families.
I'd give him a 10. Like him or hate him, he is one of the most impressive people of our lifetime.
Much like Role playing games...where people don't want to examine the hard facts and the big picture. Most gamers like to assume that they are in the majority or that their view of the hobby is similar to the majorities...yet the (few) hard facts that we have show that everything Wizards does defines "mainstream" role playing. Everything else is dandruff on their shoulders. Sure other companies come up with good ideas...before Wizards does them better.
Quote from: grubmanI'd give him a 10. Like him or hate him, he is one of the most impressive people of our lifetime.
That was more of a sardonic question, kinda mocking of your recent love of the word "crunchy" to imply general goodness, than anything that actually required an answer.
That said, I agree. :)
Quote from: ElectroKittyThat was more of a sardonic question, kinda mocking of your recent love of the word "crunchy" to imply general goodness, than anything that actually required an answer.
That said, I agree. :)
Oh, I know. I did mean to start the whole thing with a smiley face...mostly to laugh at myself for my obsession with Arnold, and to acnowlege the joke...but what I said about him is true.
Quote from: James J SkachSee, Walker, you base your "review" of whether or not SW - SE will have any impact on the hobby through the lense of your dislike of d20. If you'd come at it without that, you might just get a different response.
.
And that is exactly what I stated up front. And I'm not going to come at it any other way because that is how I feel. However, I am willing to listen to others who are willing to discuss how and why this may or may not impact the hobby. If that includes attacking some of the foundations of my premise to present an answer to my main question, as you have done, that is perfectly acceptable. What I don't want to do is argue about whether or not D20 is a good system or if Star Wars is a good system. I am biased and I am close-minded on that issue. I thought I had made that clear.
Quote from: James J SkachSo I ask: If SW SE brings in a lot of new players who, for whatever reason, decide not to branch out into the kinds of games you like, is that good for the hobby? Or will you just lament the fact that it brought in a bunch more of those "close-minded d20 players"?
Well you still aren't really addressing the point of what I asked, but it is at least a demand for a clarification of terms, so I will respond. If SW Saga only brings in players that only play SW Saga, then, in my opinion, that would not be good for the hobby. It might, however, be good for the industry as it could increase demand for certain products that might bring revenue to companies that produce products for many different game lines.
Again, I would ask that people please try to separate themselves a bit from their emotions. I probably should have worded my OP a little better, but I am looking for speculation, analysis, prognostication, not a debate over what is or isn't good for the hobby. I think I was the one who used the word good, so my bad on that. But I was sort of hoping that people would be sophisticated enough to be able to parse the question and interpret it through their own lens. So if bringing more D20 players is good for you, then do you think SW Saga will bring more of them?
Quote from: walkerpWell you still aren't really addressing the point of what I asked, but it is at least a demand for a clarification of terms, so I will respond. If SW Saga only brings in players that only play SW Saga, then, in my opinion, that would not be good for the hobby.
If you read this, please back that up. Why would it not be good for the hobby if people only come in to play Star Wars Saga? Is Star Wars Saga not part of the hobby? Is not the purpose of the hobby to have fun, to enjoy playing a game? I don't see how this is a loss or even a break-even for the hobby. Any new game has an overall positive affect.
QuoteSo if bringing more D20 players is good for you, then do you think SW Saga will bring more of them?
Of course. It's Star Wars, and it's RPG. It came out at the same time as the 30yr celebration. It's bound to bring new people in.
Quote from: walkerpIf SW Saga only brings in players that only play SW Saga, then, in my opinion, that would not be good for the hobby.
you will alway have a % that will only stick with one game, but I believe you will find a larger % that will (eventually) try something new and different. I used to be a Palladium only guy, then I found cyberpunk, and HERO, and Warhammer FRP...
I appreciate your honesty, but the point is to frame the issue in the way you do is a bit meaningless. However, I'll focus on the title as opposed to the OP and try not to let your emotionally based argument affect my answer in an emotional way. That way, at least one of us won't be acting emotionally. Fair enough? Watch how it's done...
From what I've seen and heard, (and hope to be reading very soon) Star Wars - SE (I love that it sounds like a car when you do it that way) will have a huge impact on the hobby overall:
It will bring in new gamers. I plan on using it to at least introduce my son to RPGs. He's still young, but I think the SW aspect will hook him - the miniatures will be icing. I think it will be that way for a lot of gamer parents with younglings.
It will expand existing players into other genre's/systems. Popular culture, not to mention the sub-culture of geekdom that cross RPG/Sci-Fi lines, provides a solid enough familiarity with the Star Wars setting that people will be comfortable trying the game, and will want to. I know, there are Star Wars rule sets out there now. But this will tap into that group of close-minded d20 High fanatasy gamers (sorry, couldn't resist) which make up a huge player base, because the rules will seem familiar enough. So it's a win because a huge set of players will find both the setting and the rules famliar enough that many will take the opportunity to branch out. It will also bring people who don't currently play d20 in to try this version. For some reason, this one seems to be more acceptable to people who, in the past, have not preferred the d20 system. And if it "captures the feel of SW" as many early reviews seem to indicate, it will be that much more of a draw to currently non-d20 folks.
Whether or not WotC decides to make it the basis for 4.0, it will mean something. What I mean is that, if they do use it, it will surely change the way people think about games. If they don't, the reasons they won't will have some impact on the hobby. Whether it means they found people didn't like the rules in play afterall, that it was a threat to the D&D branding, or that while it captured SW wells, it doesn't capture D&D well - any of those reasons will impact the hobby to a greater or lesser extent.
See? That's how you do it without a bias for or against the d20 system itself.
Well that is a very optimistic prognosis. See, this is more the kind of thing I was thinking would be people's general reaction. As you say, SW Saga does seem to have real potential to attract a wider range of consumer than we have seen in a while. However, this potential does not seem to have been very strongly exploited by Wizards. Maybe it's just outside of my radar, but where is the marketing and promotion?
Even as a self-proclaimed D20 "disliker", I bought SW Saga for my friend's kid because it seemed like a pretty good entry-level product. But I am a roleplayer, so it's going to be on my radar. What about the soccer moms? Again, the production of this book seems like something that would maybe catch the eye of that kind of consumer.
Quote from: walkerpWell that is a very optimistic prognosis. See, this is more the kind of thing I was thinking would be people's general reaction. As you say, SW Saga does seem to have real potential to attract a wider range of consumer than we have seen in a while. However, this potential does not seem to have been very strongly exploited by Wizards. Maybe it's just outside of my radar, but where is the marketing and promotion?
Even as a self-proclaimed D20 "disliker", I bought SW Saga for my friend's kid because it seemed like a pretty good entry-level product. But I am a roleplayer, so it's going to be on my radar. What about the soccer moms? Again, the production of this book seems like something that would maybe catch the eye of that kind of consumer.
You kill me. I'm done talking to you. YOu can't go through a post without totally calling other peoples' way fom playing games shit. It's pathological.
Quote from: James J SkachYou kill me. I'm done talking to you. YOu can't go through a post without totally calling other peoples' way fom playing games shit. It's pathological.
errrr... maybe Im missing something... I didnt see him talking about other people' way of playing, I see him questioning the lack of promotion
Quote from: NYTFLYRerrrr... maybe Im missing something... I didnt see him talking about other people' way of playing, I see him questioning the lack of promotion
Here...I'll bold it for you...
Quote from: walkerpEven as a self-proclaimed D20 "disliker", I bought SW Saga for my friend's kid because it seemed like a pretty good entry-level product. But I am a roleplayer, so it's going to be on my radar. What about the soccer moms? Again, the production of this book seems like something that would maybe catch the eye of that kind of consumer.
WTF?
Uh ... he plays RPGS ("is a roleplayer") and SW Saga is a meaningful event in the RPG community, so he's going to hear about it from the many sources of information he has about RPGs generally ("on my radar").
What do you read it to be saying?
Quote from: James J SkachHere...I'll bold it for you...
WTF?
I read it the same way the first time, but if you look back he's not saying, "I'm a role player" and your not, or anything, he's simply stating that he is a member of the role playing crowd.
I think. :)
And here's where I put my tail between my legs, and beg for forgiveness.
I thought it said "so it's not on my radar." Honestly. I really did. Too long at the computer today.
So, I was wrong. I'm sorry walker.
EDIT: To show you how fucked up I was reading it, the Soccer Moms comment made no fucking sense to me. Now that I've been corrected and NT has parsed it better, it makes perfect sense.
Quote from: James J SkachHere...I'll bold it for you...
WTF?
did you read the whole sentance... hes a role player... not a soccer mom
But I am a roleplayer, so
it's going to be on my radar. What about the soccer moms?
EDIT: and now Ill back up slowly....
To be fair, I'm typing this during lab when I am supposed to be writing a c++ program, so I am a bit distracted and my sentences are not well constructed, nor my thoughts properly completed.
Walker: I'm sorry I've come to this discussion fairly late, I wish I'd read this thread before it was six pages long.
Let me say: I strongly appreciate and congratulate you on your sincerity in stating your anti-D20 bias up front. I think that this is the RIGHT way to handle things, in this or any forum, to start out from a position of honesty. It will ALWAYS make your argument stronger than it would have been if you had come on here trying to pretend you were neutral toward D20 and then going on to shit all over it, like far too many of D20's detractors try to do.
Also, your new avatar rocks. :D
Now, that said, obviously I and others strongly disagree with your position about D20, and will argue with you about it. But before I get to any argument with you, let me say how much I appreciate the fact that you are not lying, being hypocritical or trying to hide your true position. I still think you're wrong, but I respect you far more as a worthy person to debate with by virtue of your honesty.
RPGPundit
Quote from: walkerpTo be fair, I'm typing this during lab when I am supposed to be writing a c++ program, so I am a bit distracted and my sentences are not well constructed, nor my thoughts properly completed.
It's nice of you to say, but this one is all on me and my tired eyes...
Quote from: walkerpTo be fair, I'm typing this during lab when I am supposed to be writing a c++ program, so I am a bit distracted and my sentences are not well constructed, nor my thoughts properly completed.
So what did your instructor think you were doing when you said:
"sum'bitch, Skach fuckhead!" :D
like it's the first time anyone's heard that....
Quote from: walkerpBut I'm not here to argue about the merits of the D20 system. I am here to make vague, poorly-informed predictions on whether or not Star Wars Saga will make any changes to our hobby as a whole, particularly in terms of bringing in new blood. Where is the soapbox? I posted my opinions on the game after a one-day perusal. Now I am asking for speculation.
Look, if you guys really want me to dis on D20, I'll start another thread so you can all freak out and feel better about yourselves. Will that help? Is there any hope that we could discuss the topic at hand?
Now it is entirely possible that the entire topic is bogus and not worthy of any wasted keystrokes. If that's the case, please, as I said before, move on. Otherwise, can we please let go of my throwaway criticisms of D20 and start discussing whether this game, which to my mind seems to be a fairly big deal in that it is such a massive license and really the only truly new rpg product Wizards has released since Eberron, which really was only a setting, will stir up some energy, cause some excitement, whatever to the hobby/industry of roleplaying?
I don't think the topic is bogus, nor do I think your being wrong about D20 is relevant to the topic at hand, so I'll grant you that.
As to the topic at hand: I happen to agree with what I think you're saying, which is that while no doubt Saga will be a very good and successful game for WoTC, I just can't see it being the game that will bring in hordes of new young players.
It might have been, had it been released, oh, say, when Episode III actually came out?! Instead of far too fucking late when most kids have moved onto whatever the fuck they're moving on to these days (harry potter? Spider man? fucked if I know).
So yeah, I think you're basically right about this part of your statements. Saga Edition will not manage to bring in huge hordes of new gamers. Unless, of course, they make a truly massive marketing campaign, bring the book's price down to about $10, and sell it at Toy Stores as well as prominently displaying it in stands by the Manga section of all the major bookstores. Or just bundle it with the latest Harry Potter book. Then, the sky would be the limit.
RPGPundit
Quote from: James J SkachHere...I'll bold it for you...
WTF?
Yeah, um.. Skach? Even I think that you're being a bit too oversensitive on this one. What you quoted didn't have anything Swinish in it, he was just saying that "he's a roleplayer and soccer moms aren't".
By all means, tear apart anything Swinish he does say, but make sure that he said it first! :p
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditI just can't see it being the game that will bring in hordes of new young players.
No, but once the Saga rules are applied to D&D 4th it will :P (OK, well, maybe not hordes, but it will be the best thing for targeting newbie RPGers since mainstream boxed set basic D&D)...or at least it has the potential to be, and WotC very rarely misses potention. Sometimes it takes them a while to get it right (like with Star Wars Saga), but they always seem to get the right product out at the right time...even if we layment don't see it (or want to admit it).
Its definitely a step in the right direction, rules-wise. Now if they could get the packaging and promotion stuff down right.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditIts definitely a step in the right direction, rules-wise. Now if they could get the packaging and promotion stuff down right.
RPGPundit
I'm one of those that likes the packaging on this one. Still, WotC is still terrible at marketing their games. I sometimes wonder where d20 would be today if it didn't start off with the D&D name. :confused:
Now if they could release a Saga D&D and market it properly, we might all have to give up or geek cred for playing it.
Quote from: RPGPunditIts definitely a step in the right direction, rules-wise. Now if they could get the packaging and promotion stuff down right.
RPGPundit
I still stand by my (unpopular) analysis that the CMG starter is in fact the perfect entry level package for the RPG.
Teach the core D20 mechanic and combat system first, without the burden of all that "role" playing crap...after that, role playing or wargaming (depending on the way the player swings) is the natural step.
The CMG is quicker and easier to play and learn, a more attractive package than RPG books, is a more comprehensible as a "game" to the newbie, and is just plain fun. Any who are potential role players will start to ask, "Why can't or how, can my figure do this?"...and that's how one gets introduced to role playing.
Moving from the CMG to the RPG system will be a snap, and the natural progression of any would be role players.
Quote from: grubmanI still stand by my (unpopular) analysis that the CMG starter is in fact the perfect entry level package for the RPG.
I don't see why you think it's an unpopular analysis -- I agree with you, and I happen to be the most important person, evar, so your analysis is, by my definition, popular.
Star Wars CMG is actually pretty fun, but my favorite CMG at the moment is Heroscape.
Now if only Hasbro would combine Heroscape and hex-based maps with d20....
Hey Pundy, you're late, I already apologized :p
Quote from: ElectroKittyI don't see why you think it's an unpopular analysis -- I agree with you, and I happen to be the most important person, evar, so your analysis is, by my definition, popular.
Star Wars CMG is actually pretty fun, but my favorite CMG at the moment is Heroscape.
Now if only Hasbro would combine Heroscape and hex-based maps with d20....
you just described D&D 4.0 :hehe:
Quote from: grubmanI still stand by my (unpopular) analysis that the CMG starter is in fact the perfect entry level package for the RPG.
Teach the core D20 mechanic and combat system first, without the burden of all that "role" playing crap…after that, role playing or wargaming (depending on the way the player swings) is the natural step.
............................
All that role playing crap????
Thats just crazy talk!!!
Its like swimming - I don't want to teach someone something by making them play in the kiddie pool. Let them start ir REAl goddamned olympic-sized pool. Then at least they have the option of that spooky deep enbd to swim in - the part of the pool with the better looking people and 2 piece swimsuits on some of them.
And some of those
STAR WARS Saga D20 2 piece suits might look like this :
http://home.att.net/~amyschultz/costumes/leia.html
- Ed C.
Quote from: RPGPunditWalker: I'm sorry I've come to this discussion fairly late, I wish I'd read this thread before it was six pages long.
Let me say: I strongly appreciate and congratulate you on your sincerity in stating your anti-D20 bias up front. I think that this is the RIGHT way to handle things, in this or any forum, to start out from a position of honesty. It will ALWAYS make your argument stronger than it would have been if you had come on here trying to pretend you were neutral toward D20 and then going on to shit all over it, like far too many of D20's detractors try to do.
Also, your new avatar rocks. :D
Now, that said, obviously I and others strongly disagree with your position about D20, and will argue with you about it. But before I get to any argument with you, let me say how much I appreciate the fact that you are not lying, being hypocritical or trying to hide your true position. I still think you're wrong, but I respect you far more as a worthy person to debate with by virtue of your honesty.
RPGPundit
you rock. ;) well said.
Quote from: RPGPunditLet me say: I strongly appreciate and congratulate you on your sincerity in stating your anti-D20 bias up front. I think that this is the RIGHT way to handle things, in this or any forum, to start out from a position of honesty. It will ALWAYS make your argument stronger than it would have been if you had come on here trying to pretend you were neutral toward D20 and then going on to shit all over it, like far too many of D20's detractors try to do.
Much appreciated. I certainly have attitudes and biases. I was hoping that this would be a place where I could talk about gaming without getting too bogged down in the niggardly details of those biases (at least not without it being explicitly stated that is the intention of the discussion, as I see you do in your shootouts). We shall see.
Quote from: RPGPunditAlso, your new avatar rocks. :D
Thanks! Professor Mortimer guides me.
Quote from: RPGPunditNow, that said, obviously I and others strongly disagree with your position about D20, and will argue with you about it. But before I get to any argument with you, let me say how much I appreciate the fact that you are not lying, being hypocritical or trying to hide your true position. I still think you're wrong, but I respect you far more as a worthy person to debate with by virtue of your honesty.
I will take this issue face on at a later date. Arm yourselves, WotC lapdogs!
So who is the big boss at WotC? Who is making the decisions about how to market their games? Is a lot of that stuff driven by Hasbro? While I think Grubman's representation of their track record is a bit pollyanic (and I guarantee you he will become disillusioned with them and SW Saga within 6 months :)), I do think they get somethings very right. They really seem to know their existing audience. And whether or not it is succesful is yet to be seen, but I think that the design and the willingness to rethink the core rules of D20, suggests that there is someone there who is able to think a little bit outside the box.
But why, then, won't they take the next step? Why do they have such a hard time with any kind of promotion outside of their fan base?
One other point about SW Saga is that it is a fresh start. Right now, it is almost impossible to rein in the insanity that is D&D 3.5 and create a complete package that you could give to beginners. But the SW Saga book is a single, nice-looking, decently priced book that you can give to any vaguely nerdy kid and they will (I suspect) be able to go from there.
Quote from: walkerpBut why, then, won't they take the next step? Why do they have such a hard time with any kind of promotion outside of their fan base?
I think that the issue is that they know that the CCGs and minis games are more immediately profitable, and they'd rather focus their marketing efforts into this than into RPGs, which are certainly far less profitable for them than either of the above. Its simple economics.
RPGPundit
Quote from: ElectroKittyI don't see why you think it's an unpopular analysis -- I agree with you, and I happen to be the most important person, evar, so your analysis is, by my definition, popular.
Star Wars CMG is actually pretty fun, but my favorite CMG at the moment is Heroscape.
Now if only Hasbro would combine Heroscape and hex-based maps with d20....
I mentioned it a couple times on teh Wizards forum and practically got nailed to the cross.
Quote from: walkerp(and I guarantee you he will become disillusioned with them and SW Saga within 6 months :)),
...and you don't know me very well. Star Wars has always had a place in my heart. I loved/played the D6 system since day one, switched to the D20 system and really enjoyed the more structured system. When the CMG came out I started saying that WotC needs to bring the RPG in line with that streamlined simple and cinematic system...they did just that. I'm very happy with the game.
As far as system, I've always liked systems with structured frameworks. D20 is an awesome system, but is a real burden for the GM to prep. That was one of the main reasons I embraced Savage Worlds...It is structured very much like D20, except simpler. Saga is as simple as Savage Worlds without the "wonk" that made that game so undesirable for some people, plus anything WotC is much more "mainstream" and easier to find players for.
I've been "pimping" the same systems for decades (with brief tangents on occasion) with Savage Worlds being the only real addition, so don't count on my becoming "disillusioned" because this system is exactly the type of game I like. I'll still be here after all the "new and shiny" hype has died.
Quote from: RPGPunditIt might have been, had it been released, oh, say, when Episode III actually came out?! Instead of far too fucking late when most kids have moved onto whatever the fuck they're moving on to these days (harry potter? Spider man? fucked if I know).
Eragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eragon) *shudder*
On a different note, I wonder how much would it cost to get the license for popular CRPGs like Zelda, Final Fantasy, or Dragon Quest.
Quote from: JongWKEragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eragon)
You mean "Star Wars Fantasy", right?
Quote from: walkerpWell this is going rather badly.
I want to discuss the impact Saga SW will have on the hobby/industry.
I have a bias against D20.
I stated that clearly up front.
The pro-anti D20 arguments have been done to death. I don't want to argue about it anymore and certainly not in this thread, where there is another topic at hand.
Is this what you do here? Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?
Should I have written my thoughts on the SW Saga game and suppressed my prejudices against D20? If that is the way I have to operate here in order to have a meaningful discussion, I guess this isn't the place I was hoping it to be.
If you didn't want your feelings about D20 to be discussed you should have resisted the urge to editorialize (and left them out).
I can't possibly believe that you expected everyone to ignore your editorials -- especially considering what a significant portion of the review they are: other than that, all we know is that the book is well-laid-out and "streamlined."
You might want to try a different reviewing style if you find that you're not getting the response you wanted.
Cheers,
-E.
QuoteIs this what you do here? Hang around, parsing threads for biases or prejudices and dogpiling on them, shouting out any other discussion?
Yeah that's pretty much it.
I disagree with what a lot of the others here have said; I think walker absolutely should have, and did do the right thing by, commenting on his position on D20 beforehand. It was absolutely the right thing to do; it made his prejudices known and out in the open, rather than trying to pretend to be neutral.
If there was a mistake anywhere along the lines, it might have been to have been more careful to try to keep more separate the parts where he stated his dislike of the game and the comments he had to make about his actual point.
On everything to do with his actual point about the possibility of this product "revolutionizing" the hobby, I think Walker was pretty well right.
The thing I HATE are the fuckers who will lie to your face about their actual feelings. Walker didn't, and this is something that helps communication. Walker, you can't really complain that others are criticizing your views about D20; but everyone else should certainly be actually trying to discuss the core of your argument rather than only your comments about your biases.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditI disagree with what a lot of the others here have said; I think walker absolutely should have, and did do the right thing by, commenting on his position on D20 beforehand. It was absolutely the right thing to do; it made his prejudices known and out in the open, rather than trying to pretend to be neutral.
If there was a mistake anywhere along the lines, it might have been to have been more careful to try to keep more separate the parts where he stated his dislike of the game and the comments he had to make about his actual point.
On everything to do with his actual point about the possibility of this product "revolutionizing" the hobby, I think Walker was pretty well right.
The thing I HATE are the fuckers who will lie to your face about their actual feelings. Walker didn't, and this is something that helps communication. Walker, you can't really complain that others are criticizing your views about D20; but everyone else should certainly be actually trying to discuss the core of your argument rather than only your comments about your biases.
RPGPundit
I agree -- walkerp was in no way deceptive; his review was forthright and honorable.
However, I think that when a reviewer has strong prejudices they're fair game for commentary. I don't think it's fair to toss in editorial comments and then say "but don't respond to those" -- the whole review (bias and everything) is on the table.
I also think it's possible to say, "I don't like D20" without making blanket statements about people who do -- a less inflammatory tone would help focus on the responses on the other elements of the review.
Cheers,
-E.
Fair enough. I was (and am) certainly ready to be critiqued for my position on D20, it was the ratio of that critique versus the core of the issue that was bugging me.
The thing is, I had the book in my hand for a day. As soon as it was out of them, I just cranked out my thoughts really fast. My point was to get my impression about the production out to people who hadn't seen it yet and see what they thought. I did this on rpg.net and that caused a whole nother kerfluffle that had nothing to do with anything but their own manipulative bullshit and I got no real responses there. So I posted it here, not knowing the makeup of the board and it being 3 days later (which is a lot of time when a new game comes out). I should have retooled the OP, posted my "review" as a quote and framed it more clearly.
I would suggest that you guys chill on what you are interpreting as "blanket statements". I in no way consider D20 players as a whole to be of any specific type. However, due to its dominance, and due to the nature of the Wizards rules design and marketing techniques, it has the potential to create a close-minded gamer and it does so. Again, I will go into this later in a separate post, but my throw away line about close-mindedness is about a certain percentage of D20 players. I never said "all D20 players are close-minded" or "if you play D20, you are close-minded." That's a logical step that you all took and decided to get all offended. I know it's the internet and all that, but I really think we all need to give way more benefit of the doubt when you read something that you might find offensive. Otherwise, we are all going to be qualifying our words to the end of time.
Quote from: grubmanI mentioned it a couple times on teh Wizards forum and practically got nailed to the cross.
What was your suggestion specifically and what was the nature of the responses?
I really don't know anything about that world over there and I'm curious what the dominant thinking is about D&D and Wizards by the hardcore fans.
Will it bring in new gamers? It won't, but I will. I suggest you do likewise.
Will it change the way other games are designed? It just took something like binary "you have it or you don't" skills and made them cool again. Now "you have it or you sort of have it." I should just toss in there that it seems like it works because of the class and level thing. Or at least the level thing, in any case.
Quote from: beejazzWill it bring in new gamers? It won't, but I will. I suggest you do likewise.
Will it change the way other games are designed? It just took something like binary "you have it or you don't" skills and made them cool again. Now "you have it or you sort of have it." I should just toss in there that it seems like it works because of the class and level thing. Or at least the level thing, in any case.
didn't AD&D 2e kinda already do the "you have it or you don't" skill thing? And get abandoned in 3.0?
Wouldn't know. I started playing in the 3.0/3.5 transition.
Quote from: J Arcanedidn't AD&D 2e kinda already do the "you have it or you don't" skill thing? And get abandoned in 3.0?
Fuck you very much for the NWP flashback, J Arcane! :insane:
Here's a review on Slashdot:
http://books.slashdot.org/books/07/06/12/0154216.shtml
I'd say that's a bit of a crossover. The comments aren't all that favourable. They are almost a cranky a bunch as we are!
Quote from: walkerpWhat was your suggestion specifically and what was the nature of the responses?
I really don't know anything about that world over there and I'm curious what the dominant thinking is about D&D and Wizards by the hardcore fans.
That WotC should focus on promoting thier CMGs as the primary introduction to thier line of RPGs. Three phases:
-CMG (teaches core rule and combat)
-Basic (introduces RPG concepts to mini game)
-Full RPG line
Interesting strategy. I don't agree with it at all and I can see why some people freaked out, but from a strategic perspective, it makes a lot of sense. I suspect, though, that despite the succes of WotC's minis, most gamers still come to D&D for the sense of escape and immersion, not the tactical warfare and you would limit your audience by presenting it as a strategic combat game only from the start. (I'm assuming that CMG's is minis, but I actually don't know what it stands for.)
Quotemost gamers still come to D&D for the sense of escape and immersion
This is true for ALL games, especially including playing with
Star Wars plastic toys. Get used to it. The only time this isn´t true is in tournaments.
Quote from: walkerpInteresting strategy. I don't agree with it at all and I can see why some people freaked out, but from a strategic perspective, it makes a lot of sense. I suspect, though, that despite the succes of WotC's minis, most gamers still come to D&D for the sense of escape and immersion, not the tactical warfare and you would limit your audience by presenting it as a strategic combat game only from the start. (I'm assuming that CMG's is minis, but I actually don't know what it stands for.)
The thing is that tactical mini games represent casual play. They can (usually) be set up and played in an hour or two.
RPGs represent a much more significant investment in time -- from player creation to GM story work to the actual length of a campaign.
It's just plain easier to pique somebody's interest with a casual game.