Will SW Saga bringin more new gamers? Some but not that many.

Wil it change the gaming community? Maybe. If WotC takes Saga and makes 4E based on it, yes. If not, No.

The problem, walkerp, is that your argument is basically thus:

1) I hate d20.
2) Star Wars is d20.
3) d20 games have classes and that's restrictive. BTW, I hate d20.
4) Therefore Star Wars sucks.
5) Did I mention how much I hate d20?

Quote from: walkerpDidn't realize this was a D20 crowd.  I thought it was a site about Roleplaying games.    

Trying my best to keep the ship on course...

Well, most people here play a lot of different games. We have a lot of people who plat d20 here. We have a few very vocal people here that think d20 is best thing since Gygax. :haw:

Quote from: McrowWell, most people here play a lot of different games. We have a lot of people who plat d20 here. We have a few very vocal people here that think d20 is best thing since Gygax. :haw:

Gygax ? I thought it was all about Mearls and his penis...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: McrowWell, most people here play a lot of different games. We have a lot of people who plat d20 here. We have a few very vocal people here that think d20 is best thing since Gygax. :haw:

Some of us actually rather like d20 *and* other gaming systems. I very much enjoy the new Saga rules, but I'll probably still play d6 Star Wars once in a while, just for kicks. I'm starting in a Serenity game next week, in fact, and it looks fun, too.

Quote from: jrientsBut once you get that white hot license, it seems you have to market the hell out it to people who aren't already RPG dorks.  That means going through channels well beyond out little hobby.  So far I haven't seen any evidence that Wizards is doing that.  And I'm not entirely convinced that Star Wars is as hot as it was prior Revenge of the Sith coming out.

Yes, generally agreed with all that you said.  The marketing dollars are definitely not there.  It almost seems that it was barely marketed to the gaming community.  I think Wizards has such a large fan base and such a close communication with them, that they think they don't have to do much more than tell them what is coming next on their website.  It works, but it is not a recipe for growth.  Though, to be fair, I bet they have a hell of a time getting marketing and promotional money from Hasbro.

And the license is getting old, for sure.  But it certainly has legs.  This is what also surprised me, how into Star Wars this kid was.  I mean he was what, 7, when the last movie came out!  And this kid is into it.  I mean he went around his school saying he was the Star Wars king and this other kid called him out on it and they had a trivia contest in the lunch room and he won.  It almost sounded semi-official.  Obviously, anecdotal evidence, but there is something there that keeps the kiddies yanking at their parents wallets.  Isn't there going to be a TV show coming out soon?

I also think that the canonical nature of the setting is inherently limiting.  As much as Wizards would like to force everyone to play Eberron, the cat is already out of the bag for D&D.  One of the hugest parts of the game is that you can create your own world.  You can't really do that in Star Wars, at least not to the same degree.

Quote from: ElectroKittyThe problem, walkerp, is that your argument is basically thus:

1) I hate d20.
2) Star Wars is d20.
3) d20 games have classes and that's restrictive. BTW, I hate d20.
4) Therefore Star Wars sucks.
5) Did I mention how much I hate d20?

:confused:

Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?

Quote from: walkerp:confused:

Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?

yes there is .

Great title for a topic...terrible thread .  What a shame.

Quote from: grubmanGreat title for a topic...terrible thread .  What a shame.

Well perhaps you could add something constructive, Grubman?  I'm sure you have some interesting input on this issue.  I followed some of your arguments about minis over on the D20 suburb on rpg.net with interest and they in some way inspired me to start this discussion (with little luck so far, but I haven't given up hope yet).

Quote from: walkerp:confused:

Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?

 Yes there is .

 As to STAR WARS: THE RPG? What the hell....anything that sparks interest in RPGs is fine with me.
 Where I work it is rather "hot" right now. We have plenty of regular customers that are still playing SW with their older D20 corebooks  ...OR they asre biying the TSR/WOTCminiatures to use with their D6 SWrulebooks.


- Ed C.

Quote from: walkerp:confused:

Is there an ignore list here at therpgsite?

Although you probably won't end up reading this, I think you just proved the point of my first post in this thread.

To answer the question posed in the title:
Will SW Saga have an impact on the hobby overall?
Some. It will likely affect the rules for later flavors of d20 and d20, whether you like it or not, is a substantial part of the hobby in general.

Will it work as a "stepping stone" to other RPGs?
Most definitely. The rules are streamlined, easy to use, and sensible. Sure, the book is full of typos, but that's expected coming from WotC.

Quote from: walkerpWell perhaps you could add something constructive, Grubman?  I'm sure you have some interesting input on this issue.  I followed some of your arguments about minis over on the D20 suburb on rpg.net with interest and they in some way inspired me to start this discussion (with little luck so far, but I haven't given up hope yet).

Saga is definitely going to impact D20 and WotCs products...and in a way the mainstream market.  I don't think it will be a surprise to them (Wizards).  WotC isn't a trend setter, they wait to see what the trends are...then do them 100% better than everyone else.  That's why they are on top and remain there.

The movement to simple streamlined, yet crunchy, games has been going on for a while.  I saw this trend and applauded it some time back...I also commented many times that I wished Wizards would jump on the wagon...especially when I saw how well their SWCMG worked, in comparison to the more convoluted D&DCMG Wizards simply allowed other game companies to experiment, break the ground, and prepare the path with the concept before they swooped in (with saga).  

When it comes to affecting the "industry" there really is only Wizards, with an occasional ripple by WW.

Saga, with its tight, simple, streamlined, crunchy rules and game element miniature use is the future of "mainstream" role playing.

Others are going to point fingers and call me nuts right now...but 20+ years ago I was claiming that Arnold Schwarzennegger would be president some day and Rap music would make it to mainstream to the same kind of laughter.

OK, I'll bite:

Quote from: walkerpSo the majority of (whom I label) close-minded D20 gamers came to the system through 3rd edtion. A lot of those players can not even conceive of roleplaying in another genre.

Or, perhaps, they just don't want to.  That doesn't make them close minded (contrary to J Arcane's perspective), it just makes them happy with the game they are playing, or happy with the genre (high fantasy).

Quote from: walkerpTo them, even D20 Modern is a major leap (now please don't get all up in arms about this comment; I know there are a ton who are totally the opposite but this phenomenon exists at least in New York and Montreal where I have played with these people).

So now we get to it: you've played with people who don't want to/can't see how to play beyond d20 High Fantasy. And then you've extrapolated that, whether or not intentionally, to a much broader group.

Quote from: walkerpSo what I was thinking and this is complete airy-fairy speculation, but that by introducing gamers to roleplaying and the D20 system, outside of the genre of high-fantasy, there is a possibility that you might find people who are more ready to check out other genres.

Ahhh..so really, it's just the D&D players who are close minded. I get it now.

Quote from: walkerpSo maybe the move to Spycraft, Mutants & Mastermind or even a generic system like GURPS or Savage Worlds is less of a leap for the person who has played SW Saga for a year, has a taste of roleplaying and wants to try something different.

Believe it or not, there are people that already do this with d20 High Fantasy.  Yup, that's right, people who started with 3rd Edition, or at teh very least came back to gaming through d20/3.x and who branch out into other games.

Quote from: walkerpAlso, currently, there is a lot less setting material in Star Wars than there is in high fantasy, so its longevity might not be as strong, thus further encouraging players to look elsewhere for their gaming fun.

This is great.  So you're looking fondly on the weakness of a setting to encourage other people, again, to play the kinds of games you like.

I think there's a German word for that, but I can't spell it.

See, Walker, you base your "review" of whether or not SW - SE will have any impact on the hobby through the lense of your dislike of d20.  If you'd come at it without that, you might just get a different response.

Now here's where I get nasty.  See, I don't think you can.  Because your definition of "helping the hobby" is to bring in new gamers that play the games you like to play.  You don't mind if they start out with that d20 system, as long as they then move on to the games you like to play.

Whereas, as far as I can tell even with the d20 "bias" some people around here have (leaving aside the penises of game designers for now), people around here don't equate helping the hobby with bringing in players who play games they like; it's just about bringing in new blood.

So I ask: If SW SE brings in a lot of new players who, for whatever reason, decide not to branch out into the kinds of games you like, is that good for the hobby? Or will you just lament the fact that it brought in a bunch more of those "close-minded d20 players"?

You can commence with the adding of me to your IL.

Quote from: David RGygax ? I thought it was all about Mearls and his penis...

Regards,
David R

That's something that would definitely go in the Christmas cards this year.

"... And in June, Mike found a web site dedicated to discussions about his penis. How droll!"

On a more serious note, classes and levels are a necessary component to good game design in many cases. They provide focus, useful comparative measures, and baselines for future design.

The objection that classes are too restrictive is bogus if taken wtihout looking at the context of a design. OF COURSE classes and levels are restrictive. That's the point. You can't play a helpless librarian in D&D because D&D is a game about heroic dungeon exploration.

By the same token, Call of Cthulhu doesn't have a page of rules for the knitting skill. Travellers doesn't include rules for playing a ghost. Attacking a mechanic in isolation is a waste of time.