Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
Overall, I feel like there's a lot more of interest here than in the earlier 5E hardcover adventures like Horde of the Dragon Queen or Out of the Abyss. Did you like those earlier adventures? I found them mediocre at best. Yes, all 13 of these scenarios are short and the settings are only briefly covered - but that's the concept of a lot of dimension-hopping adventures. I haven't finished going over them, but I notably like "Written in Blood" as a horror scenario, and "Shadow of the Sun" as political/religious intrigue.

I wasn't a huge fan of 5E adventures in general. 'Rise of Tiamat' sends the party out getting allies for the big epic battle at the end, but it's all handwaved, it doesn't matter whether they get all the allies or none, everything all unfolds the same.

I quite like some of the Radiant Citadel ones, they vary in quality but some are fairly decent. It helps my group like a mix of combat and non-combat resolutions.

Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
Having the civilizations interacting directly adds a lot of complication, and I'm not sure of the payoff.

That's fair comment, my group just really like world-building and playing in different cultures. That style probably isn't for everyone.

Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.
But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.
In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.

Hey, get outta here with your reasoned, balanced and thoughtful opinions! We're trying to have a culture war here! 

But yeah, seriously, I can't see how you can portray a culture without a degree of stereotyping. Over time, some stereotypes become archetypes, and they are not all harmful.

I mean, it's a fantasy game, so the Mexicans aren't going to be social media influencers or computer programmers. Having a distinct culture is kind of the point.  The argument is how much white folks are permitted to engage with that culture.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.

Very much so, sir. They can't keep their 'rules' straight.  Ultimately, the hard left want to promote divisions, not understanding.

They have silly debates on whether a certain black actress is 'black enough' to play Billie Holliday, but have no issue if the same actress was playing Anne Boleyn.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM

It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.

Not saying that either group has it better or worse, I just remember, at least since the nineties, how Asians were the "model minority" and how their status been tossed around as it suits the ideology at play for quite a while now.

Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:07:03 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.

If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.

In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.

But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.

In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.

It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.

We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.

Quote from: Hzilong on July 30, 2022, 03:45:31 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM

It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.

Not saying that either group has it better or worse, I just remember, at least since the nineties, how Asians were the "model minority" and how their status been tossed around as it suits the ideology at play for quite a while now.

We're veering off topic now, but I should point out as the last word that I remember how Asians went from "model minority" that the pro-immigration left promoted to now being White Supremacists because their success disproves the entire CRT argument.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.

We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.

I agree that there's a lot of arbitrariness about what is called racist - plus even among those with consistent standards, different people have different standards, even among those on the same side of the binary political split. Not everyone on the left has the same opinions on racism, nor everyone on the right.

People these days are pretty quick to declare others racist. I try to avoid using the term because of the many different standards means that there are many different meanings. Here in this thread, we've had a number of claims like:

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 12:56:34 AM
Sounds like that guy has internalized racism and needs to be more offended that they let a gnome dress up like his grandma.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 29, 2022, 09:00:15 AM
That depiction of a Mexican is pretty Archie Bunker.  Shame on WotC.

Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM
Its disgustingly racist.

What I try to do is be specific about what I'm claiming and what my opinion is. Within the book itself, I don't consider the content like those illustrations to be racist.

What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy.  They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.

They think all the rest of us are their property.

Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:11:46 PM
People these days are pretty quick to declare others racist. I try to avoid using the term because of the many different standards means that there are many different meanings. Here in this thread, we've had a number of claims like:

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 12:56:34 AM
Sounds like that guy has internalized racism and needs to be more offended that they let a gnome dress up like his grandma.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 29, 2022, 09:00:15 AM
That depiction of a Mexican is pretty Archie Bunker. Shame on WotC.

Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM
Its disgustingly racist.

What I try to do is be specific about what I'm claiming and what my opinion is. Within the book itself, I don't consider the content like those illustrations to be racist.

I'm pretty sure most of those are facetious, calling out the BS. At least mine was. I've been told what I said there numerous times.

I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
They think all the rest of us are their property.

Literally true. No hyperbole, no exaggeration, no analogy or metaphor.

They think they own us.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy.  They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.

Part of your claim here is that the book itself is nothing but the shallowest stereotypes. And that's not my impression from reading the book, so I disagree. Like GeekyBugle claimed that "The Fiend of Hollow Mine" was the result of "some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage" -- when the author of that adventure, Mario Ortegón, was born and raised in Mexico.

There are some stereotypes in the book, but avoiding all stereotypes in general is not more true to culture. Many stereotypes have a basis in some true aspect of a culture. I don't think either of the NPCs pictured from the Hollow Mine adventure are overall very stereotyped. The grandmotherly gnome Paloma is the leader of an outlaw group, for example.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.

Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.

Quote from: jhkim on July 31, 2022, 01:27:25 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.

Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.

You just have to Google "Radiant Citadel culture" or "Radiant Citadel diversity" and a bunch of examples come up...

Quote"As I'm writing, I'm thinking, 'Man, wouldn't it be awesome to have an entire D&D book written by people of color talking about our own cultures, our own people, our own histories, our own myths, the foods we eat, the arts we appreciated – what would that look like?" [co-project lead and writer Ajit A.] George said.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2022/07/20/journeys-through-radiant-citadel-dungeons-and-dragons/10096026002/

Also, not all of these people grew up on these cultures. Plenty of them are simply Americans descended from those ethnic backgrounds. One of them (I forget the name) even got the job just for shitting Oriental Adventures in a podcast. And none of the actual cultures portrayed in the book are contemporary cultures, so none of these people actually grew up in them regardless, even if they grew up in the countries where these cultures originate from. Making their "lived experiences" largely irrelevant.

At least in the Champions book you mention I would assume that the content would be based on contemporary England or UK, since it's a supers game. So it might make sense to get someone who at least lived there to get a proper feel for it, since it's an actual current day culture. But the ones in Radiant Citadel are generally older cultures anyone writing about would have to research regardless of their background.

Quote from: jhkim on July 31, 2022, 01:27:25 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy.  They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.

Part of your claim here is that the book itself is nothing but the shallowest stereotypes. And that's not my impression from reading the book, so I disagree. Like GeekyBugle claimed that "The Fiend of Hollow Mine" was the result of "some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage" -- when the author of that adventure, Mario Ortegón, was born and raised in Mexico.

There are some stereotypes in the book, but avoiding all stereotypes in general is not more true to culture. Many stereotypes have a basis in some true aspect of a culture. I don't think either of the NPCs pictured from the Hollow Mine adventure are overall very stereotyped. The grandmotherly gnome Paloma is the leader of an outlaw group, for example.

You can be born and raised in Mexico and still have only the shallowest understandings of your own culture's history, mythology and religion. That's another conceit of the left, an element of the "mystic negro" syndrome, where "people of color" all have some kind of magically deep inherently wise understanding of everything to do with their culture (or rather, the leftist perception of their culture), and lead so much richer lives on account of that magical intuitive knowledge than boring white people do.

It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.

The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).

Quote

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.

Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.

Kingdom of Champions was set in present day Great Britain. If you're doing a modern day RPG location book about Ottawa or Shanghai, it could certainly make sense to hire someone who lives in those cities.  But someone living in present-day Ottawa wouldn't necessarily have any special ability to write a book set in Upper Canada in the 1830s, nor would someone in modern day Shanghai have any capacity to write a sourcebook set in the Song Dynasty Shanghai in the era of Mi Fei (or indeed, be likely to even know who Mi Fei was!).

Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).

Hell. I don't know that I would even give the author credit for going back as far as The Exorcist.  Pazuzu was an important Demon Lords for PF/Golarion and I'm inclined to think that is about all the effort that was put in by the author.

Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:40:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.
...
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.

It sounds like to you, the important thing is what politics the company espouses - not the content of the adventure.

That is because WOTC and their staff cant shut the hell up. If they gagged even half these creeps things would be alot more tolerable. And very not helped that you have groups with agendas egging things on with exxaggerated or outright false claims.

But WOTC product will always get raked over the coals because that is the environment that WOTC and their staff created.

Everything they do is going to be suspect because everything they do IS suspect.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.

It comes up with native americans and african/americans as well. You are counted as one only as long as its convenient. Then all of a sudden you arent.