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Author Topic: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know  (Read 7745 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #120 on: August 03, 2022, 02:13:49 PM »
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.

Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.

Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.

And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.

No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:

Quote
Emerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.

Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.

A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.

I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.

So it's exactly what pundit said, santa muerte, día de los muertos, etc with the serial numbers filled off. Mixed with Halloween and Cenotes in the capital? Dude's also putting the Aztecs in Yucatan... I mean, come on!
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SHARK

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #121 on: August 03, 2022, 02:26:17 PM »
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.

Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.

Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book.  From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).

But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.

This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage.

At its most basic, the Left's ideology is based in the Romantic (speaking of the movement in Europe in the late 18th century) idea that man is born innocent (tabula rasa), and society/culture is responsible for his becoming brutal and vile.  The whole "noble savage" myth is part and parcel of this.  It's one reason the modern left privileges youth.  It also, by definition, rejects experience as a viable method of achieving knowledge, as experience is what drags us away from our inborn innocence (see the various Romantic poets of the time, like William Blake, for a literary expression of these ideas).  So there is no surprise that these Leftist RPG writers would reject the notion that experience (i.e. formal learning) is necessary to competently reflect the cultures in their modules.  Besides, part of the benefit of subscribing to an ideology that celebrates youth is that you get to act like a spoiled brat and expect good things to come to you without effort or sacrifice.  Tell me that doesn't describe half the authors of this module...

Greetings!

Damn. Lots of truth here, my friend! Very much on point!

I think that formal academic knowledge and skill is preferable to simply grabbing a gaggle of nobodies down at the bus stop.

The whole 'BIPOC" nonsense is bullshit. Being "BIPOC" doesn't make you an authority on a fucking thing. Even strict, formal education, while preferable, I can also respect simply having a thorough working knowledge of "X". Some hobby enthusiasts and gamers, after all, may as well have PH.D's in whatever area of study. Some of them have devoted years to learning about historical "X".

With the writers involved with this book, however, I don't get the sense that they are well-read and well-studied on much of any history. And as Pundit has highlighted, more specifically, their general experience in *gaming* is pretty sparse.

Semper Fidelis,

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #122 on: August 04, 2022, 07:42:35 PM »
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.

Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.

Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.

Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book.  From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).

But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.

This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage.

At its most basic, the Left's ideology is based in the Romantic (speaking of the movement in Europe in the late 18th century) idea that man is born innocent (tabula rasa), and society/culture is responsible for his becoming brutal and vile.  The whole "noble savage" myth is part and parcel of this.  It's one reason the modern left privileges youth.  It also, by definition, rejects experience as a viable method of achieving knowledge, as experience is what drags us away from our inborn innocence (see the various Romantic poets of the time, like William Blake, for a literary expression of these ideas).  So there is no surprise that these Leftist RPG writers would reject the notion that experience (i.e. formal learning) is necessary to competently reflect the cultures in their modules.  Besides, part of the benefit of subscribing to an ideology that celebrates youth is that you get to act like a spoiled brat and expect good things to come to you without effort or sacrifice.  Tell me that doesn't describe half the authors of this module...

Yes, it's all Rousseau's fault. "Man in inherently good", he said, while he abandoned all his children to die in an orphanage because they were inconvenient to him.
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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #123 on: August 04, 2022, 07:49:25 PM »
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.

If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.

In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.

But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.

In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.

It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.

We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.

It's jhkim being his usual disingenuos twat and moving the goal posts to cape for WotC/Leftards.

Their only rule is power, they want it and you shouldn't get it. So, they will say whatever to prevent you from getting it. In this case the power to use stereotypes (not all of which are negative nor false) while preventing other publishers to do so lest they be called istophobes.

BTW, if ANYONE needs to protray stereotypical latinos and have a shield just ask me and you can cite me as your "sensitivity reader" for free.

JhKim is worth 1000 tubesocks to the Woke Establishment, because he is very good at pretending to be reasonable and never loses his shit. But in this thread he's been especially sloppy about how he selectively quotes the book.
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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #124 on: August 04, 2022, 08:19:43 PM »
First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil.

I was sent the text of parts of that adventure. Here's the text about the "Colonizers": "San Citlán’s history is rife with conflict. After years of failed invasions over its first century of existence, the city was overcome and occupied by a colonizing force. Colonial rule lasted for two hundred years and ended in a bloody series of conflicts called the Wars of Separation. In the aftermath, the
folk of San Citlán held their first elections, finally looking forward to a time of peace. The wars have left scars, turning previously fertile lands barren and driving away the fey that once inhabited the region—some say forever."

Sounds like evil to me. Not the native Aztecs -sorry, Citlanese- who according to the history never did anything wrong.

The Citlanis aren't shown as blameless. There is little said about the ancient Citlanis or the colonizers -- but the modern-day Citlani rulers are seen as oppressive and corrupt by the common people. You claimed that the colonizers were "described as unequivocally evil" -- but your quote doesn't say that. The war against them was described as bloody - and that's it.

When you take a civilization that was based on tens of thousands of child sacrifices a year, and you don't mention that, but you refer to the people who stopped that as nothing but "COLONIZERS", I'm pretty sure that to the left that is a statement of the Spaniard's Absolute Evil. And of course the Citlanian ruling class is evil, they're DESCENDED FROM THE COLONIZERS, right? That's the claim that the left uses today when it comes to "light skinned latinos".



Quote
I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.

For someone who owns the book you sure are bad, or very selective, about the text you quote. From "Faith and Festivals": "La Catrina -believed to be death herself- is the patron spirit of the city".

So yes, they renamed Santa Muerte as "La Catrina". And this, rather than Jesus (or, even say La Virgen De Guadalupe) is the dominant religious power of the setting. Because everything western is bad, and Aztec Death Cults are wonderful and diverse.

What you quoted says she is the patron spirit of the city, and not a goddess - nor does it specify that she is generally or exclusively worshipped. The paragraph you are quoting from Faith and Festivals as a whole goes:

Quote
Worship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. "Don't piss outside the cantina lest you soil a temple" is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city's many centers of worship. La Catrina - believed to be death herself - is the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wished to be celebrated rather than feared.

Note how "major religions" plural have temples. So there are many different religions, and La Catrina is not described as one of those worships. She is only a local spirit to the city.

A patron of the city is by definition worshipped. The Day of the Dead equivalent here is a religious festival. Unless you want to get so precious with anachronism of just admitting this is all postmodern bullshit and claim that this is a purely secular festival like valentine's day, the type of thing that does not exist in pre-modernist cultures.

Quote
So in the same sense that an average modern-day Briton would know a bit more about medieval england than an average modern-day Filipino, but it would still be a gap-filled, inaccurate, and often cartoonish understanding of history, likewise a typical Mexican might know a little more about pre-Columbian Mexico than the average Wisconsin farmer would, but it would still be gap filled and cartoonish levels of understanding.

What we're instead presented with by the Left is a notion that somehow Genetic Race-History is inherent from birth and that someone from a given culture will be a greater expert on every detail of that culture than even the most educated PhD who is not from that culture, and that anyone who dares to question this is a racist.

No one that I know on the left believes in your version of racial memory from birth.

Every time the Left claims that a white person can't write a sourcebook for some historical period, unless he pays blood money to "cultural consultants", that's the "racial memory from birth" argument. Every time you have WoTC hire some 3rd generation immigrant-descendant American not fully fluent in anything but English to write a setting material for her great-grandmother's culture 3000 years in the past, rather than hiring someone who actually studied that historical period, that's the Racial Memory From Birth argument.

Quote
It's a question about how much one rates experiences like growing up speaking the language, singing the songs, celebrating the festivals, participating in the religion, and other lived experience. I think that these are important. They're not everything, but they're very significant compared to reading some books and/or taking college courses as an adult. I would compare it to learning a language. Someone can study an unrelated language for years as an adult, with hundreds of hours of college course work, and still not speak it as well as the average native.

To take your latter example: consider how much a typical Mexican and an average Wisconsin farmer know about pre-Columbian Mexico. Both have major gaps in their knowledge. Then suppose I asked both to study about pre-Columbian Mexico for a month. The Mexican would likely have a lot more resources available to them - like people within their circle, museums, and so forth. And they have a lot more context for what they read, like knowing more of the geography, weather, plants, and animals which are part of the history.

Yes, but the Left has already told the Mexican they don't need to do any of those things, and the demand that she study or learn anything at all about her own culture/history and prove it meritocratically in competition is WHITE SUPREMACY in action, and that she only really needs to be who she is, and embrace the "indigenous ways of knowing", and then just throw in some recipes from the latest vegan cookbook she's written, because she's not even a real game designer and if you claim she should be then YOU'RE A NAZI WHO WANTS WOMEN TO BE RAPED.

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #125 on: August 04, 2022, 08:24:51 PM »
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.

Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.

Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.

And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.

No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:

Quote
Emerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.

Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.

A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.

I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.


More selective quoting from JHKim I see...

Here's the actual text about the topic, rather than the brief middle-of-the-adventure shorter description which was what JHKim for some reason chose to quote.

Faith and Festivals
Worship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. “Don’t piss outside the cantina lest you soil a
temple” is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city’s many centers of worship. La Catrina—believed to be death herself—is
the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wishes to be celebrated rather than feared.
While numerous festivals are held throughout the year, the most splendid and anticipated is the Night of the Remembered, a celebration that evolved from
ancient funerary rites and draws on the magic of the city. During this night, people can be visited by deceased loved ones if they honor them with an
ofrenda: food and drink enjoyed in life, among other traditional offerings, presented on elaborate altars that guide souls back to the world. The days
leading up to this event are marked by colorful citywide parades that display San Citlán’s diverse culture.


Note the terms "ofrenda" ("Offering" or sacrifice in spanish) and "altars". But yeah go ahead, tell me this isn't just a renamed Santa Muerte and that this isn't a religious holiday. In a heading entitled FAITH and Festivals.

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #126 on: August 04, 2022, 09:07:44 PM »
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.

Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.

Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.

And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.

No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:

Quote
Emerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.

Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.

A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.

I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.


More selective quoting from JHKim I see...

Here's the actual text about the topic, rather than the brief middle-of-the-adventure shorter description which was what JHKim for some reason chose to quote.

Faith and Festivals
Worship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. “Don’t piss outside the cantina lest you soil a
temple” is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city’s many centers of worship. La Catrina—believed to be death herself—is
the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wishes to be celebrated rather than feared.
While numerous festivals are held throughout the year, the most splendid and anticipated is the Night of the Remembered, a celebration that evolved from
ancient funerary rites and draws on the magic of the city. During this night, people can be visited by deceased loved ones if they honor them with an
ofrenda: food and drink enjoyed in life, among other traditional offerings, presented on elaborate altars that guide souls back to the world. The days
leading up to this event are marked by colorful citywide parades that display San Citlán’s diverse culture.


Note the terms "ofrenda" ("Offering" or sacrifice in spanish) and "altars". But yeah go ahead, tell me this isn't just a renamed Santa Muerte and that this isn't a religious holiday. In a heading entitled FAITH and Festivals.

La Catrina represents Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Calavera_Catrina

Dia de los Muertos (two days really) is when the spirits of the dearly departed come visit earth to see their family. It has strong elements of ancestor worship but it falls short of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofrenda

We don't worship la catrina we use it to laugh at and to normalize death. So, if a cult around death exists in a pseudo mexican setting it's clearly santa Muerte.

Now, someone tell me that if ANY gringo of European descent dared to write that he wouldn't be immediately condemned for equating Mexicans with the Cartels.

Once more, I have exactly zero problem with the depiction and wouldn't have it if you found the most blond gringo descendant of vikings and he had wrote it.

It becomes an issue only because WotC screams about not using stereotypes and then publishes this.

Of course, the only people that would cancel the author over this are leftards, so, as long as he doesn't do/say ANYTHING (or has in the past) to draw the ire of the cult he's safe and so is WotC.

Because, due to his bloodline, IT IS OKAY when he does it but it wouldn't if a viking descendant did. Because to the left Race/Ethnicity = Culture and because they DO believe in racial memory.
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jeff37923

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #127 on: August 04, 2022, 09:10:22 PM »
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.

If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.

In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.

But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.

In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.

It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.

We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.

It's jhkim being his usual disingenuos twat and moving the goal posts to cape for WotC/Leftards.

Their only rule is power, they want it and you shouldn't get it. So, they will say whatever to prevent you from getting it. In this case the power to use stereotypes (not all of which are negative nor false) while preventing other publishers to do so lest they be called istophobes.

BTW, if ANYONE needs to protray stereotypical latinos and have a shield just ask me and you can cite me as your "sensitivity reader" for free.

JhKim is worth 1000 tubesocks to the Woke Establishment, because he is very good at pretending to be reasonable and never loses his shit. But in this thread he's been especially sloppy about how he selectively quotes the book.

OK, so just to make sure that I understand the Units of Measurement, 1 jhkim = 1000 Tubesock Army's or 1 jhkim = a kiloTubesock. We now have a valid metric to use when measuring the value a leftist has to the Woke Establishment.

Now, for those fighting against the Woke Establishment, could we use negative Tubesocks for measurements?

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #128 on: August 05, 2022, 12:35:30 AM »
You can only have negative socks if the left one is missing.  Perhaps the other side is measured in MAGAs where one of those is equal to about 12.5 REEEEs.   ;D
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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #129 on: August 05, 2022, 01:17:34 AM »
You can only have negative socks if the left one is missing.  Perhaps the other side is measured in MAGAs where one of those is equal to about 12.5 REEEEs.   ;D

But how many REEEEs are in a sock? or in a jhkim?
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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #130 on: August 05, 2022, 11:37:11 AM »
Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to determine the value of a REEEE since the color of my skin means that my education and experience does not matter.  :-)
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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #131 on: August 05, 2022, 09:43:16 PM »
Stop derailing this thread with off-topic material. That's a warning to everyone.
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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2022, 04:30:48 PM »
La Catrina represents Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Calavera_Catrina

Dia de los Muertos (two days really) is when the spirits of the dearly departed come visit earth to see their family. It has strong elements of ancestor worship but it falls short of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofrenda

We don't worship la catrina we use it to laugh at and to normalize death. So, if a cult around death exists in a pseudo mexican setting it's clearly santa Muerte.

I see nothing in the adventure that suggests a cult of death. La Catrina is described as a local patron spirit who "wishes to be celebrated rather than feared" as Pundit and I quoted earlier. People dress in costumes as her for the festivities, but nothing says that they worship her as a religion. So it seems to me consistent with Day of the Dead and not with Santa Muerte. The adventure specifies that there are many temples to the different major religions - which is in keeping with D&D's polytheism, though it doesn't fit with historical Mexican Catholicism.


Once more, I have exactly zero problem with the depiction and wouldn't have it if you found the most blond gringo descendant of vikings and he had wrote it.

It becomes an issue only because WotC screams about not using stereotypes and then publishes this.

Within this book, WotC says to not lean into stereotypes when costuming for a game streamed online in a tiny note in the introduction. (a) That's not screaming, and (b) that's not being against stereotypes in general.

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2022, 04:43:24 PM »
Greetings!

Well, I don't "Dress Up" or wear costumes when I DM a game. Sometimes, I wear my Viking Horned Helmet, or my rubber SHARK Head. As for "leaning into stereotypes" I also do that, constantly. I ham it up completely, whether depicting someone from an African-like background, Asian, Indian, Norse Viking, Desert Nomad, whatever.

I also play with the stereotypes of every kind of white person, ever. Fat, greedy Roman merchants, whore strumpets, bearded rogues, crazy demagogues. The list is endless. Snooty, smug Britons! Smooth Frenchmen, elegant Spaniards.

Players fucking LOVE IT--and are often inspired to roleplay more, with more enthusiasm, and more effort. It's all FUN.

Oh yeah. My black friends and Latino friends? They ham up the fucking stereotypes too. Everyone, every culture, is open game. Noone is fucking special or sacred.

That is the way it should be, for everyone, at every table. Don't let the mentally damaged, the pussies, and the Racist Liberal crybabies try and change gaming.

Semper Fidelis,

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2022, 10:12:15 PM »
La Catrina represents Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Calavera_Catrina

Dia de los Muertos (two days really) is when the spirits of the dearly departed come visit earth to see their family. It has strong elements of ancestor worship but it falls short of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofrenda

We don't worship la catrina we use it to laugh at and to normalize death. So, if a cult around death exists in a pseudo mexican setting it's clearly santa Muerte.

I see nothing in the adventure that suggests a cult of death. La Catrina is described as a local patron spirit who "wishes to be celebrated rather than feared" as Pundit and I quoted earlier. People dress in costumes as her for the festivities, but nothing says that they worship her as a religion. So it seems to me consistent with Day of the Dead and not with Santa Muerte. The adventure specifies that there are many temples to the different major religions - which is in keeping with D&D's polytheism, though it doesn't fit with historical Mexican Catholicism.


Once more, I have exactly zero problem with the depiction and wouldn't have it if you found the most blond gringo descendant of vikings and he had wrote it.

It becomes an issue only because WotC screams about not using stereotypes and then publishes this.

Within this book, WotC says to not lean into stereotypes when costuming for a game streamed online in a tiny note in the introduction. (a) That's not screaming, and (b) that's not being against stereotypes in general.

Bolding mine.

And here we have the Gringo Liberal explaining to me how people dressing up (something that's related to halloween not Día de los Muertos) makes it totally related to Día de los Muertos...

He's also gaslighting, the text clearly says she's the patron spirit of the city, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the celebration has everything to do with her.

There's only ONE group of people in México that worships a female skeleton: Narcos and other members of the criminal lumpen. They worship a skeleton called? You guessed it, santa muerte.

So, jhkim, in his efforts to protect WotC can read stuff related to Día de los Muertos but not the stuff clearly related with the narco cult.

Then, to top it all, you try to engage (and so distract) in a semantic argument.

Tell me jhkim, do you have another mode that's not lying disingenuous twat?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell