For some reason (what could it be?) WoTC is not really pushing these four things about Radiant Citadel in how they sell it to regular gamers...
#dnd5e #dnd #ttrpg #osr
I would be deeply offended if someone wanted to hire me BECAUSE I'm Maya. Fuck that noise!
And if you white ppl keep giving money to these clearly racist fucks you deserve what you'll get.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 01:14:03 AM
I would be deeply offended if someone wanted to hire me BECAUSE I'm Maya. Fuck that noise!
And if you white ppl keep giving money to these clearly racist fucks you deserve what you'll get.
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 01:14:03 AM
I would be deeply offended if someone wanted to hire me BECAUSE I'm Maya. Fuck that noise!
And if you white ppl keep giving money to these clearly racist fucks you deserve what you'll get.
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
And you're an idiot.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 02:05:23 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 01:14:03 AM
I would be deeply offended if someone wanted to hire me BECAUSE I'm Maya. Fuck that noise!
And if you white ppl keep giving money to these clearly racist fucks you deserve what you'll get.
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
And you're an idiot.
Relax. It was a joke. I actually agree with your sentiment.
WOTC loves to talk the talk. But rarely walk the walk.
Remember that during playtest Mearls was chirping buzzwords left and right. Very little of that made it into the core books or anywhere else even. WOTC staff love their buzzwords. But like all good SJWs. They dont actually do anything. Or what they do actually do is so demeaning as to make racist people look welcoming.
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 02:36:19 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 02:05:23 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 01:14:03 AM
I would be deeply offended if someone wanted to hire me BECAUSE I'm Maya. Fuck that noise!
And if you white ppl keep giving money to these clearly racist fucks you deserve what you'll get.
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
And you're an idiot.
Relax. It was a joke. I actually agree with your sentiment.
My, bad, sorry, I apologize.
Damn autism.
A new adventure-filled hardback book release, without any harm caused by conflict. That sure does sound exciting....
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.
Greetings!
Leftists never do comprehend economics.
I've always wondered why Liberals love Marxism so much. The evidence proves through history that Marxist economies fail utterly, and create impoverished shitholes of masses of people living in abject poverty, squalor, and misery. The Soviet Union, Eastern Germany, Poland, Eastern Europe, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela--they are all fucking shitholes under Marxism. Communist China--before they embraced a heavily modified state-influenced hyper-capitalism--they too, were a shithole. Many have also observed that, aside from a thin, politically-approved elite, Communist China *still* has a hugely backwards and poor state.
Over and over again, Marxism has produced nothing but poverty and misery--even in the best of circumstances, for the briefest of moments. The rest of the time, in addition to poverty and misery, there is absolute bloodbaths, mass murder, prison camps, indoctrination, tyranny, brutality, and mass-scale terror.
And yet, we still have these bright-eyed college students, nicely-dressed cubicle office workers, and latte-sipping game industry workers insisting with such fervency that Marxism is the ultimate good and best way for society. They champion this same bullshit in fantasy game campaigns, like the Radiant Citadel.
So sad.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time. It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
It's like these people can't resist the urge to stick their ideology into everything, even if the core concept bears no relation to it.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time. It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
Maybe it's all a barter economy? After all, one could make the case that it's not trade or money socialism abjures, it's
capital, i.e. the accumulation of wealth to the point of creating an investor vs. non-investor class.
(Oooh -- now I'm imagining a city driven by a vast web of necromantic talismans, where the currency everybody uses is literally drawn from one's own life force, and you can never buy more than what you decide you can afford to sacrifice in bodily vitality and health.)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.
I see what you did there.....
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 08:50:24 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 02:36:19 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 02:05:23 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2022, 01:14:03 AM
I would be deeply offended if someone wanted to hire me BECAUSE I'm Maya. Fuck that noise!
And if you white ppl keep giving money to these clearly racist fucks you deserve what you'll get.
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
And you're an idiot.
Relax. It was a joke. I actually agree with your sentiment.
My, bad, sorry, I apologize.
Damn autism.
No worries. :)
It was a stupid joke.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 23, 2022, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.
I see what you did there.....
I wondered if anybody would get that joke. ;D
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time. It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
Why should we assume the traders are doing it under their own free will? It's a "trade hub" because the people are forced to produce a certain amount of product specifically for the purpose of distributing it to others. That's how communism works in practice. My mother grew up in rural communist Poland and she told us how the government would give them various seeds to plant and imposed a quota on them. Whatever was left over, you got to keep (and sell privately if you wanted). If you didn't grow enough, the government took everything and you starved. It was essentially forced labor.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 03:06:48 PM
Maybe it's all a barter economy? After all, one could make the case that it's not trade or money socialism abjures, it's capital, i.e. the accumulation of wealth to the point of creating an investor vs. non-investor class.
Then there must be limits on how much of something someone can buy too. The accumulation of anything is tantament to wealth; currency is merely a convenient placeholder. Barter-economies put everyone in crutches and stifle economic growth. If you make furniture, you can only make a certain amount of things before you expend your raw materials. You must then barter for more raw materials, and hope the producer of those materials needs whatever you made. If they need a bed but all you made was tables and chairs, you're fucked. The only feasible way it can work is to have an "on-demand" barter economy, but then everyone is perpetually waiting for whatever they need. There won't be "trade hubs" because it would be economically irresponisble to make ANYTHING in surplus.
Ergo - the trader's in the Radiant Citidel are being forced to produced.
Quote(Oooh -- now I'm imagining a city driven by a vast web of necromantic talismans, where the currency everybody uses is literally drawn from one's own life force, and you can never buy more than what you decide you can afford to sacrifice in bodily vitality and health.)
This is actually a pretty cool idea. It's still nightmare fuel, but with the right rules in place, it can make a pretty neat alternative to money.
Assuming everyone's soul has the same "weight" or "worth," and you MUST store souls within your own body, people could trade soul fragments back and forth as if it were currency. You can never buy more than you're worth, and you can never have more soul fragments than what makes up a full soul (i.e., you body can't have more than one soul).
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time. It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
It's like these people can't resist the urge to stick their ideology into everything, even if the core concept bears no relation to it.
There's plenty of mention of trade, hiring, and taxes -- so I don't see it as saying that money doesn't matter.
You seem to be saying that something must either be 100% libertarian free market, or 100% communist, but both at present and in history, that's never been the case. There have been a lot of societies (past and present) where some things were communally handled, but other goods are freely traded for money.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time. It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
It's like these people can't resist the urge to stick their ideology into everything, even if the core concept bears no relation to it.
Exactly! And the thing that shouted the highest hypocrisy is the "mind control" magic that makes everyone behave. While I don't have, nor will I have, the book I'm told the magic is controversial in universe but they'll still use it for the "better" good.
Do the sjdubs realize they are the new fascists?
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 23, 2022, 07:09:41 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 23, 2022, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.
I see what you did there.....
I wondered if anybody would get that joke. ;D
Not I, I are too dense mofo.
The alien Monolith from the film
2001: A Space Odyssey has proportions of 1 by 4 by 9.
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 23, 2022, 10:23:37 AM
A new adventure-filled hardback book release, without any harm caused by conflict. That sure does sound exciting....
Odds of that being true are so low as to approach zero. At least one of the adventures involves dealing with a haunted farm and undead. So unless the PCs are supposed to talk the zombies to re-death. Peaceful resolution seems rather unlikely.
Not to mention the Citadel is not the 'safe space' they claimed.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time.
It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
It's like these people can't resist the urge to stick their ideology into everything, even if the core concept bears no relation to it.
Barter would be a viable form of trade. Thats how it was in Planescape too. There was a mix of barter and coin as there was a huge variety of visitors. Again Citadel seems to be cribbing notes from Sigil.
WOTC couldnt make up their minds if they wanted to.
Of course. That is how this SJW cult works every damn iteration. Diversity for diversity's sake no matter how mentally stunted or even harmful it is to do so. Moreso because its always based on whatever is trendy rather than any positive intent. Made all the worse because it undermines any honest attempts at having a varied crew in anything just for fun or because it does make sense to have. Or have an interesting trade system that works and is flexible enough to handle more than just barter. And Planescape did that with just a few sentences.
D&D is one of the few RPGs where real diversity has been hard coded into the game out the gate. But of course every iteration the cult clains it never was and nor we need real diversity. ad nausium.
Radiant Citadel just builds on the stupid. Fake safe spaces. Ham handed economies aping work done by writers light years ahead of them that they have the gall to label wacist because of course.
They could have put out something good if they had dropped all the agenda posturing. And the outright lies about what the setting really is.
Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2022, 12:39:29 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time.
It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
It's like these people can't resist the urge to stick their ideology into everything, even if the core concept bears no relation to it.
Barter would be a viable form of trade. Thats how it was in Planescape too. There was a mix of barter and coin as there was a huge variety of visitors. Again Citadel seems to be cribbing notes from Sigil.
WOTC couldnt make up their minds if they wanted to.
Of course. That is how this SJW cult works every damn iteration. Diversity for diversity's sake no matter how mentally stunted or even harmful it is to do so. Moreso because its always based on whatever is trendy rather than any positive intent. Made all the worse because it undermines any honest attempts at having a varied crew in anything just for fun or because it does make sense to have. Or have an interesting trade system that works and is flexible enough to handle more than just barter. And Planescape did that with just a few sentences.
D&D is one of the few RPGs where real diversity has been hard coded into the game out the gate. But of course every iteration the cult clains it never was and nor we need real diversity. ad nausium.
Radiant Citadel just builds on the stupid. Fake safe spaces. Ham handed economies aping work done by writers light years ahead of them that they have the gall to label wacist because of course.
They could have put out something good if they had dropped all the agenda posturing. And the outright lies about what the setting really is.
Capitalism understood not as the strawman that Marx built and named but as an economic system is nothing but the free exchange of money for goods or services.
Now, what's money? A means of exchange with a value we all agree upon. But since money is just a means of exchange then bartering my chickens for your cow is also capitalism as long as the bartering is made freely.
But I doubt the authors even went that way, I bet there's money involved, because they are stupid.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 11:11:34 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 23, 2022, 07:09:41 PM
Not I, I are too dense mofo.
The alien Monolith from the film 2001: A Space Odyssey has proportions of 1 by 4 by 9.
Ahhhh, perfect. Thanks, Stephen. I did done learnded sumthin
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2022, 11:04:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2022, 12:39:29 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time.
It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
It's like these people can't resist the urge to stick their ideology into everything, even if the core concept bears no relation to it.
Barter would be a viable form of trade. Thats how it was in Planescape too. There was a mix of barter and coin as there was a huge variety of visitors. Again Citadel seems to be cribbing notes from Sigil.
WOTC couldnt make up their minds if they wanted to.
Of course. That is how this SJW cult works every damn iteration. Diversity for diversity's sake no matter how mentally stunted or even harmful it is to do so. Moreso because its always based on whatever is trendy rather than any positive intent. Made all the worse because it undermines any honest attempts at having a varied crew in anything just for fun or because it does make sense to have. Or have an interesting trade system that works and is flexible enough to handle more than just barter. And Planescape did that with just a few sentences.
D&D is one of the few RPGs where real diversity has been hard coded into the game out the gate. But of course every iteration the cult clains it never was and nor we need real diversity. ad nausium.
Radiant Citadel just builds on the stupid. Fake safe spaces. Ham handed economies aping work done by writers light years ahead of them that they have the gall to label wacist because of course.
They could have put out something good if they had dropped all the agenda posturing. And the outright lies about what the setting really is.
Capitalism understood not as the strawman that Marx built and named but as an economic system is nothing but the free exchange of money for goods or services.
Now, what's money? A means of exchange with a value we all agree upon. But since money is just a means of exchange then bartering my chickens for your cow is also capitalism as long as the bartering is made freely.
But I doubt the authors even went that way, I bet there's money involved, because they are stupid.
Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.
We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2022, 11:04:59 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2022, 12:39:29 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 02:38:53 PM
My favorite part is how Radiant Citadel seems to have socialist underpinnings, with heavy hints that money doesn't matter, yet it's also simultaneously supposed to be a trade hub at the same time.
It's like, make up your minds people! Do you hate capitalism and money doesn't matter? Or do you love commerce and want to take everyone's money?
It's like these people can't resist the urge to stick their ideology into everything, even if the core concept bears no relation to it.
Barter would be a viable form of trade. Thats how it was in Planescape too. There was a mix of barter and coin as there was a huge variety of visitors. Again Citadel seems to be cribbing notes from Sigil.
WOTC couldnt make up their minds if they wanted to.
Of course. That is how this SJW cult works every damn iteration. Diversity for diversity's sake no matter how mentally stunted or even harmful it is to do so. Moreso because its always based on whatever is trendy rather than any positive intent. Made all the worse because it undermines any honest attempts at having a varied crew in anything just for fun or because it does make sense to have. Or have an interesting trade system that works and is flexible enough to handle more than just barter. And Planescape did that with just a few sentences.
D&D is one of the few RPGs where real diversity has been hard coded into the game out the gate. But of course every iteration the cult clains it never was and nor we need real diversity. ad nausium.
Radiant Citadel just builds on the stupid. Fake safe spaces. Ham handed economies aping work done by writers light years ahead of them that they have the gall to label wacist because of course.
They could have put out something good if they had dropped all the agenda posturing. And the outright lies about what the setting really is.
Capitalism understood not as the strawman that Marx built and named but as an economic system is nothing but the free exchange of money for goods or services.
Now, what's money? A means of exchange with a value we all agree upon. But since money is just a means of exchange then bartering my chickens for your cow is also capitalism as long as the bartering is made freely.
But I doubt the authors even went that way, I bet there's money involved, because they are stupid.
Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.
We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.
Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
Interesting, because that sort of effect should only be seen on the Positive Energy Plane or adjacent to it.
EDIT: The reason I make that point is because the Radiant Citadel is supposedly built on the Ethereal Plane (presumably, the Deep Ethereal), which is probably the easiest plane to reach for mortals.
Sigh. They just want to keep breaking the rules so they can have their little made up Sigil knockoff.
Having watched the video, I'm reminded of back in my teens when I went to go see The Last Temptation of Christ with a group from my church and discuss it afterwards. While we were in line, there were a bunch of protesters handing out pamphlets about how awful and blasphemous the movie is - without having seen it.
In general, there's plenty to criticize in Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but Pundit is explicit that he hasn't read it, and is just going by rumors he hears about it.
He also does a lot of declaring what the creators really think (like "they hate white people") and then clarifying that they don't say those things, but he just knows the impurity in their hearts.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.
We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.
Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.
Someone who creates a setting gets to define how magic powers work in a given world, as well as larger cosmology. Within their world, they are right. For example, in Pundit's Lion & Dragon - the monotheistic Church of the Unconquered Sun and the God of Law is defined as good, and the forces of chaos opposed to it are evil and a threat to human survival. Heresy and heathenism are "a direct threat to humankind in this life and the next".
Overall, the Radiant Citadel itself is a left-leaning utopia - but it seems the equivalent of fantasy nordic country or similar, rather than a communist country like Cuba. I don't think it works well as a gaming setting. It seems like a weak wrapper element to bring together the anthology of 13 adventures each in their own mini-setting, and it's my least favorite part of the book. However, that doesn't justify making up false stuff about it.
1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.
2) There's no suggestion that money isn't important or that *all* resources are distributed. Indeed, the multiple mentions of taxes, tariffs, and tolls scaled to means contradict this.
3) As one example, healing isn't free for anyone except the poorest. As the book puts it, "The House of Convalescence turns no one away; healing is priced according to one's means, and the poorest are served without charge." That could be called socialist because pricing is according to means, but people still have to pay. Historically, many church-run institutions would help heal the poor as well as provide other services, tithing members to pay for it. Alms is a common practice in Christianity and one of the pillars of Islam.
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 03:40:02 PM
Having watched the video, I'm reminded of back in my teens when I went to go see The Last Temptation of Christ with a group from my church and discuss it afterwards. While we were in line, there were a bunch of protesters handing out pamphlets about how awful and blasphemous the movie is - without having seen it.
In general, there's plenty to criticize in Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but Pundit is explicit that he hasn't read it, and is just going by rumors he hears about it.
He also does a lot of declaring what the creators really think (like "they hate white people") and then clarifying that they don't say those things, but he just knows the impurity in their hearts.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.
We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.
Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.
Someone who creates a setting gets to define how magic powers work in a given world, as well as larger cosmology. Within their world, they are right. For example, in Pundit's Lion & Dragon - the monotheistic Church of the Unconquered Sun and the God of Law is defined as good, and the forces of chaos opposed to it are evil and a threat to human survival. Heresy and heathenism are "a direct threat to humankind in this life and the next".
Overall, the Radiant Citadel itself is a left-leaning utopia - but it seems the equivalent of fantasy nordic country or similar, rather than a communist country like Cuba. I don't think it works well as a gaming setting. It seems like a weak wrapper element to bring together the anthology of 13 adventures each in their own mini-setting, and it's my least favorite part of the book. However, that doesn't justify making up false stuff about it.
1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.
2) There's no suggestion that money isn't important or that *all* resources are distributed. Indeed, the multiple mentions of taxes, tariffs, and tolls scaled to means contradict this.
3) As one example, healing isn't free for anyone except the poorest. As the book puts it, "The House of Convalescence turns no one away; healing is priced according to one's means, and the poorest are served without charge." That could be called socialist because pricing is according to means, but people still have to pay. Historically, many church-run institutions would help heal the poor as well as provide other services, tithing members to pay for it. Alms is a common practice in Christianity and one of the pillars of Islam.
Hi jhkim. I'm not going to argue your logic. For me, what WotC has proven is I'm no longer in their desired demographic. My money will be taken elsewhere. I'm not going to buy/read this product. I've seen reviews from folks who have purchased it. Would there be something from this I could use in my game? Probably, but my gaming dollar isn't going to go here as this book, and previous, is taking the game in a direction I don't like.
It's just like 2nd edition, my favorite. They came out with settings that just didn't hold interest for me. So like 2nd, they're fracturing the player base in my opinion. But, for me, the way WotC seems to be pandering to certain groups makes my gaming dollar decisions easier.
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 03:40:02 PM
Having watched the video, I'm reminded of back in my teens when I went to go see The Last Temptation of Christ with a group from my church and discuss it afterwards. While we were in line, there were a bunch of protesters handing out pamphlets about how awful and blasphemous the movie is - without having seen it.
In general, there's plenty to criticize in Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but Pundit is explicit that he hasn't read it, and is just going by rumors he hears about it.
He also does a lot of declaring what the creators really think (like "they hate white people") and then clarifying that they don't say those things, but he just knows the impurity in their hearts.
Where did I say "they hate white people"?
QuoteQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.
We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.
Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.
Someone who creates a setting gets to define how magic powers work in a given world, as well as larger cosmology. Within their world, they are right. For example, in Pundit's Lion & Dragon - the monotheistic Church of the Unconquered Sun and the God of Law is defined as good, and the forces of chaos opposed to it are evil and a threat to human survival. Heresy and heathenism are "a direct threat to humankind in this life and the next".
Overall, the Radiant Citadel itself is a left-leaning utopia - but it seems the equivalent of fantasy nordic country or similar, rather than a communist country like Cuba. I don't think it works well as a gaming setting. It seems like a weak wrapper element to bring together the anthology of 13 adventures each in their own mini-setting, and it's my least favorite part of the book. However, that doesn't justify making up false stuff about it.
1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.
Now who's lying?! Here's their entire text on law and justice: "Public safety and peacekeeping are administered through a variety of councils and organizations designed to address specific issues. The House of Convalescence helps those living with mental illness, while inspectors investigate nonviolent crimes and use nonlethal methods of detainment. Theft is uncommon in the city, and rehabilitation and restorative justice are preferred methods of addressing wrongs. Highly trained local guards mobilize to
handle the rare incidents of violence, and citizens are expected to proactively intervene if needed. The worst offenders are sentenced to a controversial
Djaynaian punishment wherein the criminal is subjected to a ritual that prevents them from repeating their crime and then is banished from the city."
So Peacekeeping is NOT the product of a centralized police force. It is handled by "a variety of councils and organizations", there is no single police force. The default is to assume that crime is a mental disorder, while nonviolent crimes are handled by "inspectors".
Theft is miraculously uncommon in the city though no reason whatsoever is given... Is it the lack of a single unifying culture? The Lack of police? the lack of caucasians? I mean, to leftists its obvious that crime is REALLY the fault of some combination of those three, and 3rd-World Sigil has none of the above, so that's probably it.
Rehabilitation and restorative justice is the preferred method to addressing wrongs, which means criminals say they're sorry and leftists bully the victims into saying that's enough.
And then we get to the key part, where YOU did
exactly what you accuse me of doing. You said above "the book specifies A highly trained guard" (note the "A").
The actual text here says "Highly trained LOCAL guardS". (note the lack of the a, the word local and the s at the end of guard)
YOU changed the text to fit your narrative, wanting to pretend that 3rd World Sigil has a single organized police force. IT DOES NOT. The text makes that very clear. A variety of organizations and councils administer peacekeeping and justice, and (presumably in each ethnic ghetto of 3rd World Sigil) there's (DIFFERENT) 'highly trained' LOCAL guardS (plural), meaning STREET GANGS with QUASI-GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY, exactly of the kind you see these days in Venezuela, Argentina, Seattle, Portland, Zimbabwe and other 3rd world shitholes.
YOU lied.
Quote
2) There's no suggestion that money isn't important or that *all* resources are distributed. Indeed, the multiple mentions of taxes, tariffs, and tolls scaled to means contradict this.
3) As one example, healing isn't free for anyone except the poorest. As the book puts it, "The House of Convalescence turns no one away; healing is priced according to one's means, and the poorest are served without charge." That could be called socialist because pricing is according to means, but people still have to pay. Historically, many church-run institutions would help heal the poor as well as provide other services, tithing members to pay for it. Alms is a common practice in Christianity and one of the pillars of Islam.
Yes, I'm sure they were basing this on their deep rooted Christian faith, and not in the gospel of modern leftism. Quit trying to pretend these people give a twopenny fuck about historical precedent. They are engaging in a masturbatory fantasy of what they imagine modern day america would be like if they had full control.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 25, 2022, 04:24:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 03:40:02 PM
Having watched the video, I'm reminded of back in my teens when I went to go see The Last Temptation of Christ with a group from my church and discuss it afterwards. While we were in line, there were a bunch of protesters handing out pamphlets about how awful and blasphemous the movie is - without having seen it.
In general, there's plenty to criticize in Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but Pundit is explicit that he hasn't read it, and is just going by rumors he hears about it.
He also does a lot of declaring what the creators really think (like "they hate white people") and then clarifying that they don't say those things, but he just knows the impurity in their hearts.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.
We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.
Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.
Someone who creates a setting gets to define how magic powers work in a given world, as well as larger cosmology. Within their world, they are right. For example, in Pundit's Lion & Dragon - the monotheistic Church of the Unconquered Sun and the God of Law is defined as good, and the forces of chaos opposed to it are evil and a threat to human survival. Heresy and heathenism are "a direct threat to humankind in this life and the next".
Overall, the Radiant Citadel itself is a left-leaning utopia - but it seems the equivalent of fantasy nordic country or similar, rather than a communist country like Cuba. I don't think it works well as a gaming setting. It seems like a weak wrapper element to bring together the anthology of 13 adventures each in their own mini-setting, and it's my least favorite part of the book. However, that doesn't justify making up false stuff about it.
1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.
2) There's no suggestion that money isn't important or that *all* resources are distributed. Indeed, the multiple mentions of taxes, tariffs, and tolls scaled to means contradict this.
3) As one example, healing isn't free for anyone except the poorest. As the book puts it, "The House of Convalescence turns no one away; healing is priced according to one's means, and the poorest are served without charge." That could be called socialist because pricing is according to means, but people still have to pay. Historically, many church-run institutions would help heal the poor as well as provide other services, tithing members to pay for it. Alms is a common practice in Christianity and one of the pillars of Islam.
Hi jhkim. I'm not going to argue your logic.
You should. He was lying and accusing me of doing what he himself was doing.
So, I love how it's all peace and harmony "just cuz" and therefore no law enforcement is required. Because we have so many examples in the real world where it goes exactly this way. /sarc OK, so I'll give them this is a fantasy setting and they can play make believe all they want, but I'd like to know that there was some historical deterrent that led to everyone playing nice together.
And that leads me to the darker, more dystopian and definitely creepy observation about what RPGPundit just wrote in there: this so-called ritual that prevents them from committing their crime again. This immediately summons to mind "imposed rightthink," which sounds like re-education camps or whatever. You don't have to work too hard for historical examples of that and they were definitely never imposed by leadership that had any kind of soul. Very creepy stuff. Hard pass for me for many reasons.
This place seems like a lovely point for a demonic invasion.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 04:47:25 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 03:40:02 PM
1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.
Now who's lying?! Here's their entire text on law and justice: "Public safety and peacekeeping are administered through a variety of councils and organizations designed to address specific issues. The House of Convalescence helps those living with mental illness, while inspectors investigate nonviolent crimes and use nonlethal methods of detainment. Theft is uncommon in the city, and rehabilitation and restorative justice are preferred methods of addressing wrongs. Highly trained local guards mobilize to handle the rare incidents of violence, and citizens are expected to proactively intervene if needed. The worst offenders are sentenced to a controversial Djaynaian punishment wherein the criminal is subjected to a ritual that prevents them from repeating their crime and then is banished from the city."
So Peacekeeping is NOT the product of a centralized police force. It is handled by "a variety of councils and organizations", there is no single police force. The default is to assume that crime is a mental disorder, while nonviolent crimes are handled by "inspectors".
Bolding is mine above. That's exactly what I said. You claimed that it was "citizen policing" like the CHAZ uprising in Seattle. However, the text says that there are professional inspectors and highly-trained guards. It does say that mental illness is treated by their house of healing, but it doesn't say that is the default.
EDITED TO ADD:
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 04:47:25 PM
And then we get to the key part, where YOU did exactly what you accuse me of doing. You said above "the book specifies A highly trained guard" (note the "A").
The actual text here says "Highly trained LOCAL guardS". (note the lack of the a, the word local and the s at the end of guard)
YOU changed the text to fit your narrative, wanting to pretend that 3rd World Sigil has a single organized police force. IT DOES NOT. The text makes that very clear. A variety of organizations and councils administer peacekeeping and justice, and (presumably in each ethnic ghetto of 3rd World Sigil) there's (DIFFERENT) 'highly trained' LOCAL guardS (plural), meaning STREET GANGS with QUASI-GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY, exactly of the kind you see these days in Venezuela, Argentina, Seattle, Portland, Zimbabwe and other 3rd world shitholes.
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that
1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"
mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?
I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.
Quote from: DeeEmm on July 25, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
This place seems like a lovely point for a demonic invasion.
LMAO! I was thinking the same thing. If I were to ever run RC (not), my sole driving goal would be to make a deconstruction of it and the folly of man.
Maybe the leftards are right that "Words are violence" because everything I hear about this Radiant Citadel is so dumb it's painful.
I'm wondering if we'll ever know that for a fact. What I mean is, they don't have to declare sales success, etc. so they could just declare it was their best selling accessory ever and how would we know?
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 04:58:51 PM
Quote(Oooh -- now I'm imagining a city driven by a vast web of necromantic talismans, where the currency everybody uses is literally drawn from one's own life force, and you can never buy more than what you decide you can afford to sacrifice in bodily vitality and health.)
This is actually a pretty cool idea. It's still nightmare fuel, but with the right rules in place, it can make a pretty neat alternative to money.
Assuming everyone's soul has the same "weight" or "worth," and you MUST store souls within your own body, people could trade soul fragments back and forth as if it were currency. You can never buy more than you're worth, and you can never have more soul fragments than what makes up a full soul (i.e., you body can't have more than one soul).
This is
very similar to what they did in the film
In Time. In that movie, the amount of time you have until death
is the currency (but there's no limit to the amount of time you can accumulate).
It sounds like they made their very best attempt at creating a genuine Utopia. Which in my experience is they very best way to create hell on earth. It could be an accidental masterpiece of a setting. I had no interest before, but now I'm intrigued.
Quote from: DeeEmm on July 25, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
This place seems like a lovely point for a demonic invasion.
The Ethereal Plane alone is host to some nasty critters.
I'm sure it has a 'barrier against invasion' or somesuch, ripped off from Sigil again.
"Highly trained local guards" hinges a lot on whether the book is written with a reliable narrator. As Pundit pointed out, a lot of recent commune-wannabees have billed their "community safety" people as being calm and reliable peacekeepers when they seem to turn out to actually be blindingly incompetent and ineffectual or trigger-happy thugs that make the worst cops look golden in comparison. Assuming the book is written with an omniscient and reliable narrator and this city does literally have highly-trained local guards that aren't just a euphemism for the local organized crime people breaking legs whenever someone raises a stink in their turf, then, well. I've seen less-realistic conceits in fantasy settings before.
I do consider Sigil a rather more realistic multiversal city, though, where only the threat of immediate painful dismemberment is keeping the evil factions from just running roughshod over everyone and even then an individual's safety hinges on knowing the right people and having eyes on the back of their head.
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 03:40:02 PM
Having watched the video, I'm reminded of back in my teens when I went to go see The Last Temptation of Christ with a group from my church and discuss it afterwards. While we were in line, there were a bunch of protesters handing out pamphlets about how awful and blasphemous the movie is - without having seen it.
In general, there's plenty to criticize in Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but Pundit is explicit that he hasn't read it, and is just going by rumors he hears about it.
He also does a lot of declaring what the creators really think (like "they hate white people") and then clarifying that they don't say those things, but he just knows the impurity in their hearts.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.
We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).
So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.
Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.
Someone who creates a setting gets to define how magic powers work in a given world, as well as larger cosmology. Within their world, they are right. For example, in Pundit's Lion & Dragon - the monotheistic Church of the Unconquered Sun and the God of Law is defined as good, and the forces of chaos opposed to it are evil and a threat to human survival. Heresy and heathenism are "a direct threat to humankind in this life and the next".
Overall, the Radiant Citadel itself is a left-leaning utopia - but it seems the equivalent of fantasy nordic country or similar, rather than a communist country like Cuba. I don't think it works well as a gaming setting. It seems like a weak wrapper element to bring together the anthology of 13 adventures each in their own mini-setting, and it's my least favorite part of the book. However, that doesn't justify making up false stuff about it.
1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.
2) There's no suggestion that money isn't important or that *all* resources are distributed. Indeed, the multiple mentions of taxes, tariffs, and tolls scaled to means contradict this.
3) As one example, healing isn't free for anyone except the poorest. As the book puts it, "The House of Convalescence turns no one away; healing is priced according to one's means, and the poorest are served without charge." That could be called socialist because pricing is according to means, but people still have to pay. Historically, many church-run institutions would help heal the poor as well as provide other services, tithing members to pay for it. Alms is a common practice in Christianity and one of the pillars of Islam.
2.- How would they distribute resources without taxes? You have to steal from me before you can pocket most and then give pennies back while signaling your virtue and magnanimity.
3.- To each according to his needs and from each according to his capacity... But this isn't Commie-Sigil.
Alms ARE voluntary, TAX funded anything aren't alms because you can't refuse to pay taxes.
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that
1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"
mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?
I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.
Uhhh, you are both missing the point. What does "highly trained" even mean in this context? Are we talking about magical SWAT teams? Trained in what? Conflict de-escalation? Negotiations and conflict resolution? Or trained in "Kill People and Break Shit"? It's a vague and nonsensical statement as written, because it doesn't specify how they "handle" the violence. Kill the perpetrators? Arrest them with non-lethal tactics and means? Or are they "highly trained" in ballet, and they just dance around you until you stop? It's like every other leftist fantasy; they know what they want, but have no idea how to actually accomplish it.
And, to Pundit's point about community policing, the very next line states "... citizens are expected to proactively intervene if needed." Sounds like vigilante justice, eh? Or compulsory service ("Why am I under arrest? That dude started slaying people, and I headed for cover. What do you mean, I had a duty to get involved?"). Or, more likely, the people on the
street are expected to
gang up on the perps to help law enforcement. Hmmm, where have I heard that before?
Quote from: Brooding Paladin on July 25, 2022, 06:48:07 PM
I'm wondering if we'll ever know that for a fact. What I mean is, they don't have to declare sales success, etc. so they could just declare it was their best selling accessory ever and how would we know?
So this is an interesting question. I don't know if WotC declares sales. What I do know is how much of the crap is sitting on the shelf at my stupid local game store, which is more a board game store, which is okay but anyway.
So is it a case of the store ordering more than the demand? My local store is full of woke people. There's also a chain game store in my area that's had the same copy of Thirsty Sword Lesbians on the shelf for a while too. So take that for what it's worth.
But from my local stores, and seeing various posts on reddit (I know, I know, it's a sewer too), it seems like there's a lot of stock of the last few releases on shelves.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 25, 2022, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: Brooding Paladin on July 25, 2022, 06:48:07 PM
I'm wondering if we'll ever know that for a fact. What I mean is, they don't have to declare sales success, etc. so they could just declare it was their best selling accessory ever and how would we know?
So this is an interesting question. I don't know if WotC declares sales. What I do know is how much of the crap is sitting on the shelf at my stupid local game store, which is more a board game store, which is okay but anyway.
So is it a case of the store ordering more than the demand? My local store is full of woke people. There's also a chain game store in my area that's had the same copy of Thirsty Sword Lesbians on the shelf for a while too. So take that for what it's worth.
But from my local stores, and seeing various posts on reddit (I know, I know, it's a sewer too), it seems like there's a lot of stock of the last few releases on shelves.
Well, that's certainly one way. A bit anecdotal and localized maybe, but could be telling. I need to get myself to more hobby stores. No good ones near me. And talking up the owners could probably reveal whether they intend to order more, can't sell what they have, etc. I guess word gets out one way or another. I doubt anyone will cast direct aspersion because "reasons," but maybe if they have to do extra gymnastics to make sense of it, make it work, etc. that could be telling as well.
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Bolding is mine above. That's exactly what I said. You claimed that it was "citizen policing" like the CHAZ uprising in Seattle. However, the text says that there are professional inspectors and highly-trained guards. It does say that mental illness is treated by their house of healing, but it doesn't say that is the default.
The antifa lunatics who took over the Chaz claimed to be "highly trained local guards".
Quote
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 04:47:25 PM
And then we get to the key part, where YOU did exactly what you accuse me of doing. You said above "the book specifies A highly trained guard" (note the "A").
The actual text here says "Highly trained LOCAL guardS". (note the lack of the a, the word local and the s at the end of guard)
YOU changed the text to fit your narrative, wanting to pretend that 3rd World Sigil has a single organized police force. IT DOES NOT. The text makes that very clear. A variety of organizations and councils administer peacekeeping and justice, and (presumably in each ethnic ghetto of 3rd World Sigil) there's (DIFFERENT) 'highly trained' LOCAL guardS (plural), meaning STREET GANGS with QUASI-GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY, exactly of the kind you see these days in Venezuela, Argentina, Seattle, Portland, Zimbabwe and other 3rd world shitholes.
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that
1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"
mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?
I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.
Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.
Look at the "collectivos" in Venezuela. Or countless street gangs claiming to be "popular defense forces" in Mexico. That's what this is; it's just that Leftists believe that if there was no police then crime would miraculously diminish.
In the beginning sections of the book, they give general top level advice how to thoughtfully present the materials in the book, especially since many real world cultures are represented, albeit in fantasy dressings.
The advice is somewhat pandering and annoying to read, but I think it is because it is not aimed at me.
I think it is aimed at two audiences - one the overly concerned people (I guess overly woke would be the shorthand) who are so worried about offense that they need some handholding to encourage them that they can play a non-white character even if they are white (or a black character even if they are Asian, etc.).
I think that the other audience it is aimed at is younger and less mature players. Consider this advice from the book:
"Online and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.
One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your roleplay."
Now that looks pretty pandering and dumb when aimed at an adult. But think about the 12 year old running a game and streaming to her 5 friends but which could be picked up by anyone. In that context, the advice seems perfectly appropriate. Many of the outrage people seem to forget the 10 year olds and 12 year olds that are playing and do not have the real world experience to understand.
WoTC and the authors are just trying to help them to not make fools of themselves online.
Once I remember that all advice is not aimed at me, mid-50's DM that has been playing for over 40 years and who has twice lived in foreign countries where I was a visible minority, I can see the point of it ...
That assumes 12 year olds will either read or care about this advice. My guess? They won't. Kids will be edgy and annoying online and no amount of preaching from a random company will change that. The majority of society agrees that certain words and phrases aren't exactly appropriate in polite society. Yet, fire up any competitive game with voice chat and you will be awash in deluge of these words. There's a reason we call them "gamer" words now. When you dig into who's using them, it's usually younger individuals who are purposefully trolling or showing off how non-conformist they are. The same will probably apply to this attempt at woke proselytizing.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM
Look at the "collectivos" in Venezuela. Or countless street gangs claiming to be "popular defense forces" in Mexico. That's what this is; it's just that Leftists believe that if there was no police then crime would miraculously diminish.
No matter how many times someone takes the French Revolution to its obvious and inevitable conclusion, there is never any shortage of people to claim it hasn't been tried right yet. Bonus points when they can put into a fantasy gaming book where there will be no real-world consequences to upset the plan.
The real problem isn't even this, though. It's that for a product to be useful, it has to be relatable to the human condition in some way that can be applied in a game. A game run with the Radiant Citadel mindset is ultimately barren, indeed even self-sterilizing.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 23, 2022, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.
I see what you did there.....
I wondered if anybody would get that joke. ;D
Another who got the joke. and how naive to think it stops there... in three dimensions....
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 27, 2022, 03:58:30 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 04:36:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 23, 2022, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 01:36:04 AM
wHiTe PeOpLe ArE nOt a MoNoLiTh.
Though my personal proportions have on occasion veered distressingly close to 1x4x9.
I see what you did there.....
I wondered if anybody would get that joke. ;D
Another who got the joke. and how naive to think it stops there... in three dimensions....
"And because, in all the wide universe, they had found nothing more precious than Mind, they rapidly learned to stay off RPG forums."
So they claim there is no police then turn around and describe what? Yes. Police. What the hell they think a city guard is? Complete with detectives and all that.
Funny how they say one thing and then do the opposite. Safe place my ass.
Still waiting to get a look at a copy though to see how stupid it all really is.
Quote from: Hzilong on July 27, 2022, 02:20:42 PM
That assumes 12 year olds will either read or care about this advice. My guess? They won't. Kids will be edgy and annoying online and no amount of preaching from a random company will change that. The majority of society agrees that certain words and phrases aren't exactly appropriate in polite society. Yet, fire up any competitive game with voice chat and you will be awash in deluge of these words. There's a reason we call them "gamer" words now. When you dig into who's using them, it's usually younger individuals who are purposefully trolling or showing off how non-conformist they are. The same will probably apply to this attempt at woke proselytizing.
But at least they tried. And I ran enough games in the local games store with kids in them (and encouraged some to just DM) to see that the young DM's do actually do a lot more prep work including reading in advance than I do. I can just wing it. They really cannot. So they prepare more.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that
1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"
mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?
I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.
Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.
You're painting a binary where there can only possibly be a centralized modern-style police force, or mob justice. But as we discussed earlier, prior to the mid-1800s, there were no centralized modern-style police. Yet I wouldn't say that all 18th century cities were ruled by "mob justice". They had a watch and other figures that were officially authorized by the local government. It's just that all law enforcement didn't come under the same umbrella.
Even in modern times, we often refer to "local police", because police are organized into different districts. That doesn't mean that there is mob rule. Rather, it means that there is delegated authority.
I would also dispute your claim that there is no law code in the citadel. The governance section just before this says "All laws and major decisions of the city are decided by majority vote of the Speakers." It later elaborates "Governance is public, transparent, and participatory. Laws are not static, but evolve to meet new challenges and needs. Subcouncils and committees manage the city under the guidance of the Speakers."
Quote from: jhkim on July 27, 2022, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that
1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"
mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?
I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.
Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.
You're painting a binary where there can only possibly be a centralized modern-style police force, or mob justice. But as we discussed earlier, prior to the mid-1800s, there were no centralized modern-style police. Yet I wouldn't say that all 18th century cities were ruled by "mob justice". They had a watch and other figures that were officially authorized by the local government. It's just that all law enforcement didn't come under the same umbrella.
Even in modern times, we often refer to "local police", because police are organized into different districts. That doesn't mean that there is mob rule. Rather, it means that there is delegated authority.
I would also dispute your claim that there is no law code in the citadel. The governance section just before this says "All laws and major decisions of the city are decided by majority vote of the Speakers." It later elaborates "Governance is public, transparent, and participatory. Laws are not static, but evolve to meet new challenges and needs. Subcouncils and committees manage the city under the guidance of the Speakers."
So the politburo, but this isn't commie sigil...
Quote from: Zalman on July 25, 2022, 06:50:21 PM
Quote from: Effete on July 23, 2022, 04:58:51 PM
Quote(Oooh -- now I'm imagining a city driven by a vast web of necromantic talismans, where the currency everybody uses is literally drawn from one's own life force, and you can never buy more than what you decide you can afford to sacrifice in bodily vitality and health.)
This is actually a pretty cool idea. It's still nightmare fuel, but with the right rules in place, it can make a pretty neat alternative to money.
Assuming everyone's soul has the same "weight" or "worth," and you MUST store souls within your own body, people could trade soul fragments back and forth as if it were currency. You can never buy more than you're worth, and you can never have more soul fragments than what makes up a full soul (i.e., you body can't have more than one soul).
This is very similar to what they did in the film In Time. In that movie, the amount of time you have until death is the currency (but there's no limit to the amount of time you can accumulate).
I had been meaning to watch that, but never, erm... found the time.
Quote from: jhkim on July 27, 2022, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2022, 12:11:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM
Let me understand. You're trying to claim that
1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"
mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?
I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.
Yes it does. If you don't have a centralized police force, what you have is a situation of local people who act on their own authority. Note that there's clearly no law code. There's mob justice in a society where there is no police; meaning that what you get depends on who is really running each cultural ghetto in the citadel, but if this game had an ounce of realism none of it would be good.
You're painting a binary where there can only possibly be a centralized modern-style police force, or mob justice. But as we discussed earlier, prior to the mid-1800s, there were no centralized modern-style police. Yet I wouldn't say that all 18th century cities were ruled by "mob justice". They had a watch and other figures that were officially authorized by the local government. It's just that all law enforcement didn't come under the same umbrella.
Even in modern times, we often refer to "local police", because police are organized into different districts. That doesn't mean that there is mob rule. Rather, it means that there is delegated authority.
I would also dispute your claim that there is no law code in the citadel. The governance section just before this says "All laws and major decisions of the city are decided by majority vote of the Speakers." It later elaborates "Governance is public, transparent, and participatory. Laws are not static, but evolve to meet new challenges and needs. Subcouncils and committees manage the city under the guidance of the Speakers."
But the section on crime seems to suggest that the law as it pertains to crime devolves back to the local ethnic ghetto that the crime happens in, with a "variety of councils and organizations" and "rehabilitation" (read: no cash bail, criminals blamed on society, free to loot/assault/damage again) and "restorative justice" (read: the criminal says he's sorry for burning down that house, and the local leaders force surviving relatives to accept it) being the "preferred methods" (suggesting that there's no fixed code of criminal law).
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on July 27, 2022, 05:16:09 PM
Quote from: Hzilong on July 27, 2022, 02:20:42 PM
That assumes 12 year olds will either read or care about this advice. My guess? They won't. Kids will be edgy and annoying online and no amount of preaching from a random company will change that. The majority of society agrees that certain words and phrases aren't exactly appropriate in polite society. Yet, fire up any competitive game with voice chat and you will be awash in deluge of these words. There's a reason we call them "gamer" words now. When you dig into who's using them, it's usually younger individuals who are purposefully trolling or showing off how non-conformist they are. The same will probably apply to this attempt at woke proselytizing.
But at least they tried. And I ran enough games in the local games store with kids in them (and encouraged some to just DM) to see that the young DM's do actually do a lot more prep work including reading in advance than I do. I can just wing it. They really cannot. So they prepare more.
I'd have to agree this is true.
I can remember back when I first started GMing, I would read all kinds of advice so I can "get it right" and give the other players a fun experience. Time is the ultimate teacher, though, and nowadays I can tell you for a fact there are plenty of gaming books I own where I haven't even read the first four or five pages. If a chapter header says "What is an RPG" or "Style over Substance" or something, I skip right over it because I've read those types of paragraphs hundreds of times already.
Younger gamers, especially if their passionate, will (in most cases) absorb that shit and commit it to memory. I think that's why many new GMs tend to be rules-lawyers; it's all they know so far.
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on July 27, 2022, 01:32:25 PM
In the beginning sections of the book, they give general top level advice how to thoughtfully present the materials in the book, especially since many real world cultures are represented, albeit in fantasy dressings.
The advice is somewhat pandering and annoying to read, but I think it is because it is not aimed at me.
I think it is aimed at two audiences - one the overly concerned people (I guess overly woke would be the shorthand) who are so worried about offense that they need some handholding to encourage them that they can play a non-white character even if they are white (or a black character even if they are Asian, etc.).
I think that the other audience it is aimed at is younger and less mature players. Consider this advice from the book:
"Online and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.
One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your roleplay."
Now that looks pretty pandering and dumb when aimed at an adult. But think about the 12 year old running a game and streaming to her 5 friends but which could be picked up by anyone. In that context, the advice seems perfectly appropriate. Many of the outrage people seem to forget the 10 year olds and 12 year olds that are playing and do not have the real world experience to understand.
WoTC and the authors are just trying to help them to not make fools of themselves online.
Once I remember that all advice is not aimed at me, mid-50's DM that has been playing for over 40 years and who has twice lived in foreign countries where I was a visible minority, I can see the point of it ...
I have read statements or seen videos using language almost identical to that paragraph before and they weren't directed 12 year olds, but about chastising people with woke messaging. "One person's culture isn't another's costume", for example, is taken from the "Not Your Costume" campaign that started around a decade ago of overly sensitive people complaining about Halloween costumes. This isn't aimed at 12 year olds. It's aimed at everyone and intended to reinforce woke ideals as a cultural norm.
Let's be fair, almost every fictional setting has some conceits that don't hold up well to scrutiny, this is hardly unique. Just take much-loved Star Trek, it doesn't take much pondering to reach, "If energy and materials are now basically free and nobody has to work, wouldn't like 95% of humanity turn into shut-ins getting laid in a holodeck 24/7 and bring the species to ruin?"
The trick in this instance is that this setting's conceits line up with the progressive talking points where our society would be improved by doing these things, and in their setting those things just happen to work out without a hitch and everyone's super happy about it. It's wish-fulfillment of a particularly blatant stripe. I think it would actually be fertile ground for a good setting, where it shows that government and those social constructs, then addresses weaknesses where bad actors have taken advantage of loopholes to pervert the noble intentions, or corruption has been creeping in through human nature or actual corrupt supernatural beings. But of course that would be bad.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 28, 2022, 08:16:19 AM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on July 27, 2022, 01:32:25 PM
In the beginning sections of the book, they give general top level advice how to thoughtfully present the materials in the book, especially since many real world cultures are represented, albeit in fantasy dressings.
The advice is somewhat pandering and annoying to read, but I think it is because it is not aimed at me.
I think it is aimed at two audiences - one the overly concerned people (I guess overly woke would be the shorthand) who are so worried about offense that they need some handholding to encourage them that they can play a non-white character even if they are white (or a black character even if they are Asian, etc.).
I think that the other audience it is aimed at is younger and less mature players. Consider this advice from the book:
"Online and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.
One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your roleplay."
Now that looks pretty pandering and dumb when aimed at an adult. But think about the 12 year old running a game and streaming to her 5 friends but which could be picked up by anyone. In that context, the advice seems perfectly appropriate. Many of the outrage people seem to forget the 10 year olds and 12 year olds that are playing and do not have the real world experience to understand.
WoTC and the authors are just trying to help them to not make fools of themselves online.
Once I remember that all advice is not aimed at me, mid-50's DM that has been playing for over 40 years and who has twice lived in foreign countries where I was a visible minority, I can see the point of it ...
I have read statements or seen videos using language almost identical to that paragraph before and they weren't directed 12 year olds, but about chastising people with woke messaging. "One person's culture isn't another's costume", for example, is taken from the "Not Your Costume" campaign that started around a decade ago of overly sensitive people complaining about Halloween costumes. This isn't aimed at 12 year olds. It's aimed at everyone and intended to reinforce woke ideals as a cultural norm.
As I said, the message is aimed at the overly woke who in theory would be hesitant to put on a "costume" of another human race to role play and probably children.
The basic message of understand what you are wearing makes sense. It is the steps away from the very reasonable thought to extremes of definition is the problem. That is where the crazy restrictions come from. Not - don't wear the sacred clothing of their religion to don't wear a Chinese looking dress to your prom if you are not Chinese.
So much for "My culture is not a costume", look and wonder at the Gnomebelita from Radiant Citadel.
Wotc : You shouldn't use caricatures to represent other cultures
Also WotC:
(Yes, it is from the Radiant Citadel)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 04:20:30 PM
Wotc : You shouldn't use caricatures to represent other cultures
Also WotC:
(Yes, it is from the Radiant Citadel)
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Are... are you serious? I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.
Damn. That's pretty fucking stupid. Did the art department not get the memo?
Meanwhile, the idiots in charge of this product would probably call me a nazi for buying a taco from a white guy.
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.
You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol
Here's his Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/elwarius
And this is him talking about the adventure:
https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon
In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.
Quote from: jhkim on July 28, 2022, 08:45:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.
You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol
Here's his Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/elwarius
And this is him talking about the adventure:
https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon
In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.
Are you implying the artist knows and respects my culture? Because this is about the art. Or are you being your usual disingenuous twat?
This is also about WotC virtue signaling about stereotypes and then doing nothing but.
I guess you also didn't notice that.
I'm surprized, the artist kissed the author's ass by making the art look like his grandma and the author liked it? Why I've never!
IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.
But WotC can say they are against stereotypes and dump the art or they can keep the art and shut their whore mouths. what they can't do is have their cake and eat it too.
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.
Now, lets see if for once you can stop being a disingenuous twat and we can have a honest conversation. Can you? I doubt it.
Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.
Quote from: Hzilong on July 28, 2022, 09:45:31 PM
Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.
But only if you got the Speedy Gonzalez route. ;D
Quote from: jhkim on July 28, 2022, 08:45:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.
You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol
Here's his Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/elwarius
And this is him talking about the adventure:
https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon
In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.
Sounds like that guy has internalized racism and needs to be more offended that they let a gnome dress up like his grandma.
He's supposed to say, "Mi abuelita is not a costume! This is not OK!" *wide eyed indignant look with pouty mouth*
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 11:31:39 PM
Quote from: Hzilong on July 28, 2022, 09:45:31 PM
Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.
But only if you got the Speedy Gonzalez route. ;D
Everytime Serapio comes and goes throughout the adventure you're supposed to yell, "Ándele! Ándele! Arriba! Arriba! Vámonos! Yeehaw!"
I always liked Slowpoke Rodriguez though. He may not be as fast as Speedy, but he carries a gun. :)
In any case, though, that art is astonishing levels of cringe and watching our resident Nork apologist try to cover for it is kind of sad.
That depiction of a Mexican is pretty Archie Bunker. Shame on WotC. By the way, great, informative video.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 03:49:23 PM
So much for "My culture is not a costume", look and wonder at the Gnomebelita from Radiant Citadel.
Shouldn't that be gnomebuelitX? I mean you can't assume its gender.
Is that sword hilt made out of roasted coffee beans?
Quote from: jhkim on July 28, 2022, 08:45:37 PM
You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol
Here's his Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/elwarius
And this is him talking about the adventure:
https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon
In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.
EVERY game borrows from real culture. However, only publishers like WotC are sanctimonious dickheads about it.
If they had limited their editorial to "here's a bunch of adventures written by people inspired by their own cultures," that would be fine by me.
But they couldn't fucking help themselves to morally grandstand about "culture is not a costume" and funny accents. They are trying to monopolize authority on the subject: "Only we are sensitive enough to provide culturally inspired RPG materials."
It's just the icing on the cake that the art looks like the very cultural caricatures they apparently wanted to warn us about.
Quote from: DocJones on July 29, 2022, 10:12:08 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 03:49:23 PM
So much for "My culture is not a costume", look and wonder at the Gnomebelita from Radiant Citadel.
Shouldn't that be gnomebuelitX? I mean you can't assume its gender.
Is that sword hilt made out of roasted coffee beans?
It's either a real scorpion tail or made to look like one.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 01:02:32 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 11:31:39 PM
Quote from: Hzilong on July 28, 2022, 09:45:31 PM
Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.
But only if you got the Speedy Gonzalez route. ;D
Everytime Serapio comes and goes throughout the adventure you're supposed to yell, "Ándele! Ándele! Arriba! Arriba! Vámonos! Yeehaw!"
And play one of these as background, best if it's the first one.
This is the bizarre hypocrisy of woke companies - they want to stress non-white settings and characters, but gatekeep by forbidding white gamers to engage with this material at all. It's like the role-playing element is lost if you're only supposed to play your own gender, culture and ethnicity. (But presumably the reverse isn't true because Western culture is some kind of baseline that everyone can freely plunder?)
I actually love history, culture and mythology from any and all of the world's nations. Almost all RPG settings have some element of fantasy real-world cultures and its' nice to have these contrasts.
We actually got Radiant Citadel between us, and it's... okay, I guess. The usual WotC low-effort product you'd expect in 2022. It's a little too utopian for my tastes, but you could always change it to include meaningful conflict with a little effort. It's a poor man's Sigil, yes, but honestly I never liked the 90's doomer dystopia of that setting anyway. Both Sigil and it's 2022 non-union Mexican equivalent actually have the same problem, in that the characters don't have much agency and they can't actually make changes to the setting.
The whole Radiant Citadel shtick is a just a thin excuse for stringing 13 short adventures together, all of which are in different settings and vary from decent to 'meh'. It's not the wokepocalypse I was expecting, there's not monsters based on Evil White People enslaving the virtuous natives. There's an evil corporation sure, but that's aided and abetted by one of the local tribes so it's not like the natives are all blameless. You can make decisions that hurt the locals on several occasions, but they just won't like you for it, as you'd expect.
There's surprisingly little about the actual cultures here, which is in keeping with WotC's disinterest in its settings. I'd have much preferred this to be a sourcebook with more detail on these cultures, including backgrounds that tie in to their cultural practises, making it easier to do what they supposedly want and role-play these cultures accurately. Plus, some equipment would have been nice, unless I want my Thai river warrior to walk around in platemail with a longsword from the Middle Ages. Why no magic items that are appropriate to the cultures, etc?
As it is, it's *okay*, but it feels like empty virtue signalling, the usual exercise in 'look at how woke we are!' rather than producing an interesting product.
Our group had a bunch of discussions about what we would do to improve it as a viable setting, most of which revolved around having some meaningful conflict between the various cultures, especially among the young. We also had the idea of making somethng like Mystara's Hollow World, where all these cultures were microcosms preserved from nations that were destroyed or on the brink of collapsing, a kind of experiment or breeding program by some gods.
I think it's possible to make use of this material in an interesting way, but you're really doing all the work yourself at that point, and borrowing from superior works on non-European cultures, of which there are many.
This is hardly surprising. They did exactly the same thing with their kung fu adventure after slapping warnings on all their old Oriental Adventures content. They are masters of hypocrisy.
Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.
But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.
The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.
Now, lets see if for once you can stop being a disingenuous twat and we can have a honest conversation. Can you? I doubt it.
Dont worry.
Wither the current iteration or the 2030 iteration of this mental disease will point at that art and declare it wacist! and insert-your-deity-here only kknows what else.
Quote from: Valatar on July 28, 2022, 04:25:34 PM
Are... are you serious? I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.
Its disgustingly racist. Moreso because of course its being touted as "inclusive".
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 29, 2022, 06:16:35 PM
Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.
But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.
The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship.
Lets not forget that Hispanic people are only a minority when it is convenient. And then they arent.
Quote from: Continental on July 29, 2022, 12:47:20 PM
We actually got Radiant Citadel between us, and it's... okay, I guess. The usual WotC low-effort product you'd expect in 2022. It's a little too utopian for my tastes, but you could always change it to include meaningful conflict with a little effort. It's a poor man's Sigil, yes, but honestly I never liked the 90's doomer dystopia of that setting anyway. Both Sigil and it's 2022 non-union Mexican equivalent actually have the same problem, in that the characters don't have much agency and they can't actually make changes to the setting.
The whole Radiant Citadel shtick is a just a thin excuse for stringing 13 short adventures together, all of which are in different settings and vary from decent to 'meh'. It's not the wokepocalypse I was expecting, there's not monsters based on Evil White People enslaving the virtuous natives. There's an evil corporation sure, but that's aided and abetted by one of the local tribes so it's not like the natives are all blameless. You can make decisions that hurt the locals on several occasions, but they just won't like you for it, as you'd expect.
I agree with the latter. The Radiant Citadel mini-setting is supposed to be an excuse to string the adventures and their mini-settings together, but I don't think it works very well for that purpose. I'd be tempted to replace it with something completely different rather than adapting it - like a dimension-hopping item or curse.
The meat of the book is the 13 scenarios and mini-settings. Overall, I feel like there's a lot more of interest here than in the earlier 5E hardcover adventures like Horde of the Dragon Queen or Out of the Abyss. Did you like those earlier adventures? I found them mediocre at best. Yes, all 13 of these scenarios are short and the settings are only briefly covered - but that's the concept of a lot of dimension-hopping adventures. I haven't finished going over them, but I notably like "Written in Blood" as a horror scenario, and "Shadow of the Sun" as political/religious intrigue.
Quote from: Continental on July 29, 2022, 12:47:20 PM
Our group had a bunch of discussions about what we would do to improve it as a viable setting, most of which revolved around having some meaningful conflict between the various cultures, especially among the young. We also had the idea of making somethng like Mystara's Hollow World, where all these cultures were microcosms preserved from nations that were destroyed or on the brink of collapsing, a kind of experiment or breeding program by some gods.
I think it's possible to make use of this material in an interesting way, but you're really doing all the work yourself at that point, and borrowing from superior works on non-European cultures, of which there are many.
I think a dimension-jumping or globe-jumping wrapper story would work better with the adventures. Having the civilizations interacting directly adds a lot of complication, and I'm not sure of the payoff.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.
...
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.
It sounds like to you, the important thing is what politics the company espouses - not the content of the adventure.
For me, I'm mostly interested in content for playing games with my friends. The art matters slightly, as I'll probably hold up the book and cover the text to show them a picture of an NPC, but it's not a big deal.
I find stereotypes are very useful for conveying concepts quickly in a game, so I'll tend to incorporate stereotypes in my own games. However, that doesn't mean making all of a given culture stereotypical. When I ran my Dragons of the Yellow Sea campaign, for example, I had a number of NPCs who fit typical Korean stereotypes - but also many NPCs who didn't - often fitting other stereotypes. For me, an important thing is mixing things up - so while some aspects use stereotypes, that isn't the whole or a reliable guide.
Going back to the stereotypes in the art here, others commented:
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM
Quote from: Valatar on July 28, 2022, 04:25:34 PM
Are... are you serious? I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.
Its disgustingly racist. Moreso because of course its being touted as "inclusive".
I don't feel that, particularly from the adventure in context. I note that GeekyBugle says he would celebrate the same art if it was in a product from a different company.
Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.
...
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.
It sounds like to you, the important thing is what politics the company espouses - not the content of the adventure.
For me, I'm mostly interested in content for playing games with my friends. The art matters slightly, as I'll probably hold up the book and cover the text to show them a picture of an NPC, but it's not a big deal.
I find stereotypes are very useful for conveying concepts quickly in a game, so I'll tend to incorporate stereotypes in my own games. However, that doesn't mean making all of a given culture stereotypical. When I ran my Dragons of the Yellow Sea campaign, for example, I had a number of NPCs who fit typical Korean stereotypes - but also many NPCs who didn't - often fitting other stereotypes. For me, an important thing is mixing things up - so while some aspects use stereotypes, that isn't the whole or a reliable guide.
Going back to the stereotypes in the art here, others commented:
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM
Quote from: Valatar on July 28, 2022, 04:25:34 PM
Are... are you serious? I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.
Its disgustingly racist. Moreso because of course its being touted as "inclusive".
I don't feel that, particularly from the adventure in context. I note that GeekyBugle says he would celebrate the same art if it was in a product from a different company.
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.
If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.
If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.
In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.
But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.
In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:26:08 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 29, 2022, 06:16:35 PM
Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.
But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.
The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship.
Lets not forget that Hispanic people are only a minority when it is convenient. And then they arent.
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.
Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
Overall, I feel like there's a lot more of interest here than in the earlier 5E hardcover adventures like Horde of the Dragon Queen or Out of the Abyss. Did you like those earlier adventures? I found them mediocre at best. Yes, all 13 of these scenarios are short and the settings are only briefly covered - but that's the concept of a lot of dimension-hopping adventures. I haven't finished going over them, but I notably like "Written in Blood" as a horror scenario, and "Shadow of the Sun" as political/religious intrigue.
I wasn't a huge fan of 5E adventures in general. 'Rise of Tiamat' sends the party out getting allies for the big epic battle at the end, but it's all handwaved, it doesn't matter whether they get all the allies or none, everything all unfolds the same.
I quite like some of the Radiant Citadel ones, they vary in quality but some are fairly decent. It helps my group like a mix of combat and non-combat resolutions.
Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
Having the civilizations interacting directly adds a lot of complication, and I'm not sure of the payoff.
That's fair comment, my group just really like world-building and playing in different cultures. That style probably isn't for everyone.
Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:06:41 PM
In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.
But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.
In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.
Hey, get outta here with your reasoned, balanced and thoughtful opinions! We're trying to have a culture war here! :)
But yeah, seriously, I can't see how you can portray a culture without a degree of stereotyping. Over time, some stereotypes become archetypes, and they are not all harmful.
I mean, it's a fantasy game, so the Mexicans aren't going to be social media influencers or computer programmers. Having a distinct culture is kind of the point. The argument is how much white folks are permitted to engage with that culture.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.
Very much so, sir. They can't keep their 'rules' straight. Ultimately, the hard left want to promote divisions, not understanding.
They have silly debates on whether a certain black actress is 'black enough' to play Billie Holliday, but have no issue if the same actress was playing Anne Boleyn.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.
Not saying that either group has it better or worse, I just remember, at least since the nineties, how Asians were the "model minority" and how their status been tossed around as it suits the ideology at play for quite a while now.
Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:07:03 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.
If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.
In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.
But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.
In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.
It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.
We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.
Quote from: Hzilong on July 30, 2022, 03:45:31 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.
Not saying that either group has it better or worse, I just remember, at least since the nineties, how Asians were the "model minority" and how their status been tossed around as it suits the ideology at play for quite a while now.
We're veering off topic now, but I should point out as the last word that I remember how Asians went from "model minority" that the pro-immigration left promoted to now being White Supremacists because their success disproves the entire CRT argument.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.
We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.
I agree that there's a lot of arbitrariness about what is called racist - plus even among those with consistent standards, different people have different standards, even among those on the same side of the binary political split. Not everyone on the left has the same opinions on racism, nor everyone on the right.
People these days are pretty quick to declare others racist. I try to avoid using the term because of the many different standards means that there are many different meanings. Here in this thread, we've had a number of claims like:
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 12:56:34 AM
Sounds like that guy has internalized racism and needs to be more offended that they let a gnome dress up like his grandma.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 29, 2022, 09:00:15 AM
That depiction of a Mexican is pretty Archie Bunker. Shame on WotC.
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM
Its disgustingly racist.
What I try to do is be specific about what I'm claiming and what my opinion is. Within the book itself, I don't consider the content like those illustrations to be racist.
What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy. They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.
They think all the rest of us are their property.
Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:11:46 PM
People these days are pretty quick to declare others racist. I try to avoid using the term because of the many different standards means that there are many different meanings. Here in this thread, we've had a number of claims like:
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 12:56:34 AM
Sounds like that guy has internalized racism and needs to be more offended that they let a gnome dress up like his grandma.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 29, 2022, 09:00:15 AM
That depiction of a Mexican is pretty Archie Bunker. Shame on WotC.
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM
Its disgustingly racist.
What I try to do is be specific about what I'm claiming and what my opinion is. Within the book itself, I don't consider the content like those illustrations to be racist.
I'm pretty sure most of those are facetious, calling out the BS. At least mine was. I've been told what I said there numerous times.
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
They think all the rest of us are their property.
Literally true. No hyperbole, no exaggeration, no analogy or metaphor.
They think they own us.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy. They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.
Part of your claim here is that the book itself is nothing but the shallowest stereotypes. And that's not my impression from reading the book, so I disagree. Like GeekyBugle claimed that "The Fiend of Hollow Mine" was the result of "some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage" -- when the author of that adventure, Mario Ortegón, was born and raised in Mexico.
There are some stereotypes in the book, but avoiding all stereotypes in general is not more true to culture. Many stereotypes have a basis in some true aspect of a culture. I don't think either of the NPCs pictured from the Hollow Mine adventure are overall very stereotyped. The grandmotherly gnome Paloma is the leader of an outlaw group, for example.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.
Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.
Quote from: jhkim on July 31, 2022, 01:27:25 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.
Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.
You just have to Google "Radiant Citadel culture" or "Radiant Citadel diversity" and a bunch of examples come up...
Quote"As I'm writing, I'm thinking, 'Man, wouldn't it be awesome to have an entire D&D book written by people of color talking about our own cultures, our own people, our own histories, our own myths, the foods we eat, the arts we appreciated – what would that look like?" [co-project lead and writer Ajit A.] George said.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2022/07/20/journeys-through-radiant-citadel-dungeons-and-dragons/10096026002/
Also, not all of these people grew up on these cultures. Plenty of them are simply Americans descended from those ethnic backgrounds. One of them (I forget the name) even got the job just for shitting Oriental Adventures in a podcast. And none of the actual cultures portrayed in the book are contemporary cultures, so none of these people actually grew up in them regardless, even if they grew up in the countries where these cultures originate from. Making their "lived experiences" largely irrelevant.
At least in the Champions book you mention I would assume that the content would be based on contemporary England or UK, since it's a supers game. So it might make sense to get someone who at least lived there to get a proper feel for it, since it's an actual current day culture. But the ones in Radiant Citadel are generally older cultures anyone writing about would have to research regardless of their background.
Quote from: jhkim on July 31, 2022, 01:27:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy. They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.
Part of your claim here is that the book itself is nothing but the shallowest stereotypes. And that's not my impression from reading the book, so I disagree. Like GeekyBugle claimed that "The Fiend of Hollow Mine" was the result of "some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage" -- when the author of that adventure, Mario Ortegón, was born and raised in Mexico.
There are some stereotypes in the book, but avoiding all stereotypes in general is not more true to culture. Many stereotypes have a basis in some true aspect of a culture. I don't think either of the NPCs pictured from the Hollow Mine adventure are overall very stereotyped. The grandmotherly gnome Paloma is the leader of an outlaw group, for example.
You can be born and raised in Mexico and still have only the shallowest understandings of your own culture's history, mythology and religion. That's another conceit of the left, an element of the "mystic negro" syndrome, where "people of color" all have some kind of magically deep inherently wise understanding of everything to do with their culture (or rather, the leftist perception of their culture), and lead so much richer lives on account of that magical intuitive knowledge than boring white people do.
It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).
Quote
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.
Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.
Kingdom of Champions was set in present day Great Britain. If you're doing a modern day RPG location book about Ottawa or Shanghai, it could certainly make sense to hire someone who lives in those cities. But someone living in present-day Ottawa wouldn't necessarily have any special ability to write a book set in Upper Canada in the 1830s, nor would someone in modern day Shanghai have any capacity to write a sourcebook set in the Song Dynasty Shanghai in the era of Mi Fei (or indeed, be likely to even know who Mi Fei was!).
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).
Hell. I don't know that I would even give the author credit for going back as far as The Exorcist. Pazuzu was an important Demon Lords for PF/Golarion and I'm inclined to think that is about all the effort that was put in by the author.
Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.
...
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.
It sounds like to you, the important thing is what politics the company espouses - not the content of the adventure.
That is because WOTC and their staff cant shut the hell up. If they gagged even half these creeps things would be alot more tolerable. And very not helped that you have groups with agendas egging things on with exxaggerated or outright false claims.
But WOTC product will always get raked over the coals because that is the environment that WOTC and their staff created.
Everything they do is going to be suspect because everything they do IS suspect.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.
It comes up with native americans and african/americans as well. You are counted as one only as long as its convenient. Then all of a sudden you arent.
Quote from: Omega on August 01, 2022, 11:11:08 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 01:47:56 AM
It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.
It comes up with native americans and african/americans as well. You are counted as one only as long as its convenient. Then all of a sudden you arent.
In my expirence b
a minority is only a minority if they vote democrat in the US. Otherwise they're a white supremecist.
Greetings!
Yeah, the whole "Only Ethnic A People are Experts!" is bullshit. As Pundit often rails about their lack of gaming experience, as well as genuine writing and game deign ability--even on a cultural and historical basis, WOTC and SJW's stupid, woke attitudes about this are mind-boggling in their stupidity.
In college, I had numerous professors that were ostensibly members of "Group B"--but were certified experts in "Group A". Whether it was a professor that was the chair of Indian and South-East Asian Studies--my professor was a white man. Or other professors that were not GREEK or ITALIAN, but were experts in Greece or Rome. Or professors that were experts in Spanish, or South American Studies. Such professors weren't all from Mexico or Brazil.
I had a woman professor--a woman originally from China--that was an expert in American History, American Cultural Studies--as well as Asian Studies, Chinese History, Asian-American Studies. She had spent many years in professional studies of both American and Chinese history, culture, and languages.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).
First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil. I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.
And it's not set in historical Mexico - it is set in a D&D fantasy realm. Per the D&D standard, San Citlan has polytheistic religions of worshipped gods. Not being catholic isn't a result of lack of understanding that real Mexico is Catholic, but because it is in a D&D realm. Likewise, Pazuzu is there for being a featured D&D demon. Just like your own game Lion & Dragon claims to be "medieval authentic" - but its default setting isn't Christian but instead has the Church of the Unconquered Sun, which has equally recognized male and female clerics. RPG settings often have deliberate fictionalization rather than being accurate history.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.
Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.
I lived in Puerto Rico all my life and I barely know WTF is going on here. I'm practically a hermit and tend to keep up more with news about the US and world politics than local stuff. I might know a few words spoken in Puerto Rican Spanish that are of Taino or African origin, but I'm hardly an expert on Taino or African languages or their influence on cultural traditions in the Caribbean. And I barely follow any local cultural traditions, cuz they're mostly Christian in origin and I gave that up early in life.
My "lived experience" is that I grew up in the modern world, got into geek stuff in my teens and got access to the internet in my late teens/early twenties, where I ended up getting plugged into social media and internet life most of my adult life, mostly to keep up with geek hobbies (like gaming and fantasy, sci-fi and supers media) and politics, as well as pagan and Eastern religion, which is the type of spirituality that actually interests me. That's what most of my experience is at. The fact that I'm Puerto Rican and lived in the actual island all my life doesn't make me an expert on its history or religious traditions, which I don't even follow. I probably relate more to being a geek and internet junkie than being Hispanic.
I'm going to guess this is yet another Pundit hot take wherein he:
1) Has not read the book in question;
2) Makes wild guesses based on "stuff he's heard out there somewhere" about what might be in it that he finds objectionable;
3) Exaggerates those rumors for some misleading points to get clicks from angry partisans;
4) Will not admit or retract the fact that stuff isn't in the book, or was deeply misleading, once people eventually correct him on it.
I am open of course to being wrong on this, but as that's what he did with the last WOTC adventure compilation, I think there's a fair basis for me to expect this to be the series of events for this one.
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).
First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil.
I was sent the text of parts of that adventure.
Here's the text about the "Colonizers": "San Citlán's history is rife with conict. After years of failed invasions over its rst century of existence, the city was overcome and occupied by a colonizing force. Colonial rule lasted for two hundred years and ended in a bloody series of conicts called the Wars of Separation. In the aftermath, the
folk of San Citlán held their rst elections, nally looking forward to a time of peace. The wars have left scars, turning previously fertile lands barren and
driving away the fey that once inhabited the region—some say forever."
Sounds like evil to me. Not the native Aztecs -sorry, Citlanese- who according to the history never did anything wrong.
Quote
I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.
For someone who owns the book you sure are bad, or very selective, about the text you quote. From "Faith and Festivals": "La Catrina
-believed to be death herself- is the patron spirit of the city".
So yes, they renamed Santa Muerte as "La Catrina". And this, rather than Jesus (or, even say La Virgen De Guadalupe) is the dominant religious power of the setting. Because everything western is bad, and Aztec Death Cults are wonderful and diverse.
QuoteAnd it's not set in historical Mexico - it is set in a D&D fantasy realm. Per the D&D standard, San Citlan has polytheistic religions of worshipped gods. Not being catholic isn't a result of lack of understanding that real Mexico is Catholic, but because it is in a D&D realm. Likewise, Pazuzu is there for being a featured D&D demon. Just like your own game Lion & Dragon claims to be "medieval authentic" - but its default setting isn't Christian but instead has the Church of the Unconquered Sun, which has equally recognized male and female clerics. RPG settings often have deliberate fictionalization rather than being accurate history.
First: The Church of the Unconquered Sun is Catholicism with the serial numbers filed off. You can just change the names back to "Catholic Church" and "Jesus" and nothing changes. The point is that you can't have a medieval european campaign setting that is in any way credible without recognizing the significance of Christianity. Just like you can't have a post-Cortez Mexican setting without recognizing the significance of Catholicism, which is not some kind of oppressive "invaders religion" that is despised or ignored by the population, but a central feature of Mexican culture. I say this as someone who is not a Christian himself, but who has lived in multiple regions of Mexico.
Second: You're out of date. To prove my first point regarding the Dark Albion "unconquered sun" conceit (something I did not because of some kind of disdain for medieval christianity but on the contrary because I was concerned that many gamers' modern-day dislike of Christianity would affect their ability to DM or play Christianity in a medivally authentic way, but just changing the name would be enough for them to be capable of doing so), my Sword & Caravan campaign setting doesn't have the Unconquered Sun anywhere. It's Christianity (and Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc) all the way.
QuoteQuote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.
They're relevant to a modern understanding of what has been filtered down through history. So in the same sense that an average modern-day Briton would know a bit more about medieval england than an average modern-day Filipino, but it would still be a gap-filled, inaccurate, and often cartoonish understanding of history, likewise a typical Mexican might know a little more about pre-Columbian Mexico than the average Wisconsin farmer would, but it would still be gap filled and cartoonish levels of understanding.
What we're instead presented with by the Left is a notion that somehow Genetic Race-History is inherent from birth and that someone from a given culture will be a greater expert on every detail of that culture than even the most educated PhD who is not from that culture, and that anyone who dares to question this is a racist.
Its a bit like claiming that because Basketball was invented in Canada (which it was) that means that every single Canadian will know, understand, and maybe play basketball better than any American ever could. It's farcical bullshit that we would never take seriously if we weren't forced to under a quasi-totalitarian cancel-culture regime. Everyone knows it's a lie, they're just too scared to tell the truth.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2022, 08:33:39 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.
Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.
Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book. From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).
But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.
This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that
they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage.
Quote from: Mistwell on August 01, 2022, 10:33:39 PM
I'm going to guess this is yet another Pundit hot take wherein he:
1) Has not read the book in question;
2) Makes wild guesses based on "stuff he's heard out there somewhere" about what might be in it that he finds objectionable;
3) Exaggerates those rumors for some misleading points to get clicks from angry partisans;
4) Will not admit or retract the fact that stuff isn't in the book, or was deeply misleading, once people eventually correct him on it.
I am open of course to being wrong on this, but as that's what he did with the last WOTC adventure compilation, I think there's a fair basis for me to expect this to be the series of events for this one.
And, it's looking like I AM in fact wrong on this one. Given Pundit is accurately quoting the pertinent parts of the book to support his position, I am wrong in guessing he hasn't read the book or is making wild guesses. Sorry about that Pundit.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:21:49 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2022, 08:33:39 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.
Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.
Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book. From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).
But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.
This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage.
At its most basic, the Left's ideology is based in the Romantic (speaking of the movement in Europe in the late 18th century) idea that man is born innocent (
tabula rasa), and society/culture is responsible for his becoming brutal and vile. The whole "noble savage" myth is part and parcel of this. It's one reason the modern left privileges youth. It also, by definition, rejects experience as a viable method of achieving knowledge, as experience is what drags us away from our inborn innocence (see the various Romantic poets of the time, like William Blake, for a literary expression of these ideas). So there is no surprise that these Leftist RPG writers would reject the notion that experience (i.e. formal learning) is necessary to competently reflect the cultures in their modules. Besides, part of the benefit of subscribing to an ideology that celebrates youth is that you get to act like a spoiled brat and expect good things to come to you without effort or sacrifice. Tell me that doesn't describe half the authors of this module...
Having actually read the section in question, I have to say that the Radiant Citadel is the same extremely weak tea I've come to expect from 5e setting material, coming from designers and writers that don't care about either getting their game to work right or portray a realistic, involving setting.
But it's clearly not a problem-free Commie utopia. It leans leftist (of course), but the setting also only works as long as people who are representatives of part of a set of founding civilizations are elected and then approved by magic gem soul-constructs. And when there is not a full set of these representatives after 30 days, the light and life support turn off.
Also, I may have missed something, but did anyone else figure out how the extreme focus on the founding civilizations worked with the refugees? As I understood it, the Citadel was made by 30-some ancient civilizations, and you need to be both a bona-fide descendant of one of those civilizations, represented by a community of representatives of that civilization living on the Citadel, and then approved by the Sparkle-Ghosts to be elected to the Council of Holding a Gun To The City's Transport And Life Support. Am I missing something, or is it the case that if a PC refugee of a not-mentioned land comes in with their own community, partakes of the services available for those refugees and forms a nice ethnic community, they or their descendants will never have any political power, nor form their own Sparkle-Ghost?
It seems pretty clearly laid out that way; it looks like there was a finite set of founding civilizations, and if you're not one of the Historical Chosen Few, you cannot achieve political power on the Citadel because the Sparkle-Ghosts who control the life support say so. Am I misreading this?
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 29, 2022, 06:16:35 PM
Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.
But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.
The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship.
Exactly! I'm not a LatinX nor a Maya because I don't agree with the cult. Ergo I'm only against their stereotypical depictions because of internalized white supremacy.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:07:03 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.
If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.
In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.
But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.
In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.
It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.
We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.
It's jhkim being his usual disingenuos twat and moving the goal posts to cape for WotC/Leftards.
Their only rule is power, they want it and you shouldn't get it. So, they will say whatever to prevent you from getting it. In this case the power to use stereotypes (not all of which are negative nor false) while preventing other publishers to do so lest they be called istophobes.
BTW, if ANYONE needs to protray stereotypical latinos and have a shield just ask me and you can cite me as your "sensitivity reader" for free.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 31, 2022, 01:27:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 30, 2022, 07:14:55 PM
What's actually being criticized there is the Michael Scott levels of hypocrisy. They dare to lecture us on not being racist and using stereotypes, and then produce a book of almost nothing but the shallowest "eat pray love" type stereotypes making it obvious that for these Liberals the "minorities" are just like those toy poodles rich girls put in their purses.
Part of your claim here is that the book itself is nothing but the shallowest stereotypes. And that's not my impression from reading the book, so I disagree. Like GeekyBugle claimed that "The Fiend of Hollow Mine" was the result of "some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage" -- when the author of that adventure, Mario Ortegón, was born and raised in Mexico.
There are some stereotypes in the book, but avoiding all stereotypes in general is not more true to culture. Many stereotypes have a basis in some true aspect of a culture. I don't think either of the NPCs pictured from the Hollow Mine adventure are overall very stereotyped. The grandmotherly gnome Paloma is the leader of an outlaw group, for example.
You can be born and raised in Mexico and still have only the shallowest understandings of your own culture's history, mythology and religion. That's another conceit of the left, an element of the "mystic negro" syndrome, where "people of color" all have some kind of magically deep inherently wise understanding of everything to do with their culture (or rather, the leftist perception of their culture), and lead so much richer lives on account of that magical intuitive knowledge than boring white people do.
It's all bullshit. Think of how many average Americans have a deep understanding of American history, religion, mythology, legends or monsters... that's exactly how many Mexicans do of theirs.
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic. Where the history and present day culture of the region is presented in a way to please Yankee Leftists (Citlan was invaded by "colonizers" who aren't even named and are described as unequivocally evil, while no mention is made of say, ending human sacrifices; the present day Citlan is like out of a bad 1960s Pancho Villa movie of self-serving landowners, impoverished peasants ground underfoot and a heroic revolutionary that is the pure moral champion). And where the demon ultimately responsible for all the events in the adventure is Pazuzu, who isn't even Mexican (its Mesopotamian, but he probably got the name from The Exorcist).
Quote
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 07:32:14 PM
I agree with GeekyBuggle, though. Hiring on the basis of race or ethnicity is racist (or enthnicist) in the actual, pre-culture war meaning of the term. As is the idea that people hold some sort of epistemic privilege on the basis of ethnic background or race. And WotC touted both of these elements as part of the promotion of this book, at least online, even if nothing about this was mentioned in the actual book itself. That's racist AF.
Can you share a link to the specific claims you're talking about? For example, I recall that for the Champions supplement for Britain ("Kingdom of Champions"), the producers tried to get someone of English background to write it. I did not consider that racist. It seemed clear to me that the idea was about lived background and culture, not thinking that understanding was tied to someone's DNA. In general, many people consider "lived experience" to be important. So, someone who was raised in a particular culture - like growing up singing children's songs, interacting with relatives, eating the food, and other participatory actions - is fundamentally different than someone who just studied that culture through books later in life.
Kingdom of Champions was set in present day Great Britain. If you're doing a modern day RPG location book about Ottawa or Shanghai, it could certainly make sense to hire someone who lives in those cities. But someone living in present-day Ottawa wouldn't necessarily have any special ability to write a book set in Upper Canada in the 1830s, nor would someone in modern day Shanghai have any capacity to write a sourcebook set in the Song Dynasty Shanghai in the era of Mi Fei (or indeed, be likely to even know who Mi Fei was!).
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
I know people all over the world who know jack shit about their own culture, or have the most superficial knowledge of it. In contrast I know people from a totally different background who have a deep understanding and appreciation of a culture not their own. Which must be all the forms of istophobia I'm sure.
Regarding the bolded part...
Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.
Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.
And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.
I bet Many of the regulars here could write something much better and with a degree of respect and understanding that fucker lacks.
As foir jhkim's claims that ethnic background gives ANYONE a special insight into their ancestors culture, that sounds like he believes that Race/Ethnicity = Culture, which is EXACTLY what the KKK, Alt-Right and other honest to gosh ethno-supremacists think.
I would suggest to you jhkim you need to meditate and ponder WHY so many of your positions coincide with those you claim to oppose.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil.
I was sent the text of parts of that adventure. Here's the text about the "Colonizers": "San Citlán's history is rife with conflict. After years of failed invasions over its first century of existence, the city was overcome and occupied by a colonizing force. Colonial rule lasted for two hundred years and ended in a bloody series of conflicts called the Wars of Separation. In the aftermath, the
folk of San Citlán held their first elections, finally looking forward to a time of peace. The wars have left scars, turning previously fertile lands barren and driving away the fey that once inhabited the region—some say forever."
Sounds like evil to me. Not the native Aztecs -sorry, Citlanese- who according to the history never did anything wrong.
The Citlanis aren't shown as blameless. There is little said about the ancient Citlanis or the colonizers -- but the modern-day Citlani rulers are seen as oppressive and corrupt by the common people. You claimed that the colonizers were "described as unequivocally evil" -- but your quote doesn't say that. The war against them was described as bloody - and that's it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.
For someone who owns the book you sure are bad, or very selective, about the text you quote. From "Faith and Festivals": "La Catrina -believed to be death herself- is the patron spirit of the city".
So yes, they renamed Santa Muerte as "La Catrina". And this, rather than Jesus (or, even say La Virgen De Guadalupe) is the dominant religious power of the setting. Because everything western is bad, and Aztec Death Cults are wonderful and diverse.
What you quoted says she is the patron
spirit of the city, and not a goddess - nor does it specify that she is generally or exclusively worshipped. The paragraph you are quoting from Faith and Festivals as a whole goes:
QuoteWorship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. "Don't piss outside the cantina lest you soil a temple" is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city's many centers of worship. La Catrina - believed to be death herself - is the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wished to be celebrated rather than feared.
Note how "major religions" plural have temples. So there are many different religions, and La Catrina is not described as one of those worships. She is only a local spirit to the city.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
So in the same sense that an average modern-day Briton would know a bit more about medieval england than an average modern-day Filipino, but it would still be a gap-filled, inaccurate, and often cartoonish understanding of history, likewise a typical Mexican might know a little more about pre-Columbian Mexico than the average Wisconsin farmer would, but it would still be gap filled and cartoonish levels of understanding.
What we're instead presented with by the Left is a notion that somehow Genetic Race-History is inherent from birth and that someone from a given culture will be a greater expert on every detail of that culture than even the most educated PhD who is not from that culture, and that anyone who dares to question this is a racist.
No one that I know on the left believes in your version of racial memory from birth. I'm sure someone somewhere on the Internet believes that, but it's not the dominant belief. People I know believe that lived experience is important. You use "pre-Columbian Mexico" as your example here, but the example we are discussing is based on post-colonial independent Mexico.
It's a question about how much one rates experiences like growing up speaking the language, singing the songs, celebrating the festivals, participating in the religion, and other lived experience. I think that these are important. They're not everything, but they're very significant compared to reading some books and/or taking college courses as an adult. I would compare it to learning a language. Someone can study an unrelated language for years as an adult, with hundreds of hours of college course work, and still not speak it as well as the average native.
To take your latter example: consider how much a typical Mexican and an average Wisconsin farmer know about pre-Columbian Mexico. Both have major gaps in their knowledge. Then suppose I asked both to study about pre-Columbian Mexico for a month. The Mexican would likely have a lot more resources available to them - like people within their circle, museums, and so forth. And they have a lot more context for what they read, like knowing more of the geography, weather, plants, and animals which are part of the history.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2022, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.
Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.
Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.
And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.
No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:
QuoteEmerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.
Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.
A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.
I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.
Quote from: jhkim on August 03, 2022, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2022, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.
Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.
Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.
And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.
No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:
QuoteEmerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.
Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.
A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.
I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.
So it's exactly what pundit said, santa muerte, día de los muertos, etc with the serial numbers filled off. Mixed with Halloween and Cenotes in the capital? Dude's also putting the Aztecs in Yucatan... I mean, come on!
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2022, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:21:49 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2022, 08:33:39 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.
Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.
Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book. From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).
But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.
This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage.
At its most basic, the Left's ideology is based in the Romantic (speaking of the movement in Europe in the late 18th century) idea that man is born innocent (tabula rasa), and society/culture is responsible for his becoming brutal and vile. The whole "noble savage" myth is part and parcel of this. It's one reason the modern left privileges youth. It also, by definition, rejects experience as a viable method of achieving knowledge, as experience is what drags us away from our inborn innocence (see the various Romantic poets of the time, like William Blake, for a literary expression of these ideas). So there is no surprise that these Leftist RPG writers would reject the notion that experience (i.e. formal learning) is necessary to competently reflect the cultures in their modules. Besides, part of the benefit of subscribing to an ideology that celebrates youth is that you get to act like a spoiled brat and expect good things to come to you without effort or sacrifice. Tell me that doesn't describe half the authors of this module...
Greetings!
Damn. Lots of truth here, my friend! Very much on point!
I think that formal academic knowledge and skill is preferable to simply grabbing a gaggle of nobodies down at the bus stop.
The whole 'BIPOC" nonsense is bullshit. Being "BIPOC" doesn't make you an authority on a fucking thing. Even strict, formal education, while preferable, I can also respect simply having a thorough working knowledge of "X". Some hobby enthusiasts and gamers, after all, may as well have PH.D's in whatever area of study. Some of them have devoted years to learning about historical "X".
With the writers involved with this book, however, I don't get the sense that they are well-read and well-studied on much of any history. And as Pundit has highlighted, more specifically, their general experience in *gaming* is pretty sparse.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2022, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:21:49 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 01, 2022, 08:33:39 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
Lived experience is only important for what you actually lived. Sorry, but a modern day Mexican has no special knowledge of what life in the Aztec Empire was like, and a modern day American has no special knowledge of what being a slave was like. They didn't live it. For the past, you have to study.
Life experience is relevant to descent. Someone who grows up speaking Nahuatl today isn't an expert in Aztec life today, but all other things being equal, their lived experience and cultural traditions are relevant.
Life experience is irrelevant to descent. That's why it's called "Life experience". Your experience of life exists regardless of what your descent is. If you're Latino, but grew up in the US and never left there, you're gonna have next to no clue of WTF life anywhere in Latin America is like, much less its history, unless you actually studied it. And even if you grew up in a Latin American country that doesn't make you an expert.
Precisely. For example, I'm of Polish descent, and I'm currently writing a Polish medieval-authentic setting for Lion & Dragon, set during the "Baptism of Poland" (the Christian conquest of the region, which was quite bloody on both sides).
But my being of Polish descent had practically nothing to do with my ability to write such a book. From my grandparents and my dad/aunts I received little details, a few customs, quite a bit of the parts of the history of Poland that my family was personally involved in, which would probably put me a bit above a typical Canadian (or American) born person whose Grandparents fled Poland in WWII. But it's a drop in the bucket. If I relied only on that and what I've learned about Poland from popular culture (which is not very much at all), the setting book I'd be creating would be absolute garbage. You know, like Daniel Kwan's "chinese" adventure in Candlekeep that he dared to release after claiming that Oriental Adventures was just based on kung fu movies (which seemed to be what most of Kwan's adventure was based on).
But instead, my book is going to be good because I've since engaged in years of meticulous research on the history of Poland, and more recently enhanced that in turn with even more research on the particular era I'm covering.
This is not what any of the people writing for Wizards appear to do. In part, because the Leftist Propaganda insists that they shouldn't have to do that. Essentially, the Left's own deluded fantasy about the value of genetic race-memory over meritocratic research means that all these authors are all but doomed to end up writing shallow stereotypical garbage.
At its most basic, the Left's ideology is based in the Romantic (speaking of the movement in Europe in the late 18th century) idea that man is born innocent (tabula rasa), and society/culture is responsible for his becoming brutal and vile. The whole "noble savage" myth is part and parcel of this. It's one reason the modern left privileges youth. It also, by definition, rejects experience as a viable method of achieving knowledge, as experience is what drags us away from our inborn innocence (see the various Romantic poets of the time, like William Blake, for a literary expression of these ideas). So there is no surprise that these Leftist RPG writers would reject the notion that experience (i.e. formal learning) is necessary to competently reflect the cultures in their modules. Besides, part of the benefit of subscribing to an ideology that celebrates youth is that you get to act like a spoiled brat and expect good things to come to you without effort or sacrifice. Tell me that doesn't describe half the authors of this module...
Yes, it's all Rousseau's fault. "Man in inherently good", he said, while he abandoned all his children to die in an orphanage because they were inconvenient to him.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2022, 10:43:08 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:07:03 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.
If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.
In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.
But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.
In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.
It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.
We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.
It's jhkim being his usual disingenuos twat and moving the goal posts to cape for WotC/Leftards.
Their only rule is power, they want it and you shouldn't get it. So, they will say whatever to prevent you from getting it. In this case the power to use stereotypes (not all of which are negative nor false) while preventing other publishers to do so lest they be called istophobes.
BTW, if ANYONE needs to protray stereotypical latinos and have a shield just ask me and you can cite me as your "sensitivity reader" for free.
JhKim is worth 1000 tubesocks to the Woke Establishment, because he is very good at pretending to be reasonable and never loses his shit. But in this thread he's been especially sloppy about how he selectively quotes the book.
Quote from: jhkim on August 03, 2022, 11:15:32 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
First of all, do you have a copy of the book now? Most of this doesn't fit what I read. There isn't virtually no mention of the colonizers except that they influenced the language - and there is nothing about them being evil.
I was sent the text of parts of that adventure. Here's the text about the "Colonizers": "San Citlán's history is rife with conflict. After years of failed invasions over its first century of existence, the city was overcome and occupied by a colonizing force. Colonial rule lasted for two hundred years and ended in a bloody series of conflicts called the Wars of Separation. In the aftermath, the
folk of San Citlán held their first elections, finally looking forward to a time of peace. The wars have left scars, turning previously fertile lands barren and driving away the fey that once inhabited the region—some say forever."
Sounds like evil to me. Not the native Aztecs -sorry, Citlanese- who according to the history never did anything wrong.
The Citlanis aren't shown as blameless. There is little said about the ancient Citlanis or the colonizers -- but the modern-day Citlani rulers are seen as oppressive and corrupt by the common people. You claimed that the colonizers were "described as unequivocally evil" -- but your quote doesn't say that. The war against them was described as bloody - and that's it.
When you take a civilization that was based on tens of thousands of child sacrifices a year, and you don't mention that, but you refer to the people who stopped that as nothing but "COLONIZERS", I'm pretty sure that to the left that is a statement of the Spaniard's Absolute Evil. And of course the Citlanian ruling class is evil, they're DESCENDED FROM THE COLONIZERS, right? That's the claim that the left uses today when it comes to "light skinned latinos".
Quote
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 01, 2022, 05:09:23 PM
I can find no mention of Santa Muerte, let alone that everyone worships her. The Night of the Remembered celebration is for the patron spirit of the city, La Catrina, and it specifies that there are different religions with different temples in the city, which is the standard for D&D.
For someone who owns the book you sure are bad, or very selective, about the text you quote. From "Faith and Festivals": "La Catrina -believed to be death herself- is the patron spirit of the city".
So yes, they renamed Santa Muerte as "La Catrina". And this, rather than Jesus (or, even say La Virgen De Guadalupe) is the dominant religious power of the setting. Because everything western is bad, and Aztec Death Cults are wonderful and diverse.
What you quoted says she is the patron spirit of the city, and not a goddess - nor does it specify that she is generally or exclusively worshipped. The paragraph you are quoting from Faith and Festivals as a whole goes:
QuoteWorship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. "Don't piss outside the cantina lest you soil a temple" is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city's many centers of worship. La Catrina - believed to be death herself - is the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wished to be celebrated rather than feared.
Note how "major religions" plural have temples. So there are many different religions, and La Catrina is not described as one of those worships. She is only a local spirit to the city.
A patron of the city is by definition worshipped. The Day of the Dead equivalent here is a religious festival. Unless you want to get so precious with anachronism of just admitting this is all postmodern bullshit and claim that this is a purely secular festival like valentine's day, the type of thing that does not exist in pre-modernist cultures.
QuoteQuote from: RPGPundit on August 02, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
So in the same sense that an average modern-day Briton would know a bit more about medieval england than an average modern-day Filipino, but it would still be a gap-filled, inaccurate, and often cartoonish understanding of history, likewise a typical Mexican might know a little more about pre-Columbian Mexico than the average Wisconsin farmer would, but it would still be gap filled and cartoonish levels of understanding.
What we're instead presented with by the Left is a notion that somehow Genetic Race-History is inherent from birth and that someone from a given culture will be a greater expert on every detail of that culture than even the most educated PhD who is not from that culture, and that anyone who dares to question this is a racist.
No one that I know on the left believes in your version of racial memory from birth.
Every time the Left claims that a white person can't write a sourcebook for some historical period, unless he pays blood money to "cultural consultants", that's the "racial memory from birth" argument. Every time you have WoTC hire some 3rd generation immigrant-descendant American not fully fluent in anything but English to write a setting material for her great-grandmother's culture 3000 years in the past, rather than hiring someone who actually studied that historical period, that's the Racial Memory From Birth argument.
Quote
It's a question about how much one rates experiences like growing up speaking the language, singing the songs, celebrating the festivals, participating in the religion, and other lived experience. I think that these are important. They're not everything, but they're very significant compared to reading some books and/or taking college courses as an adult. I would compare it to learning a language. Someone can study an unrelated language for years as an adult, with hundreds of hours of college course work, and still not speak it as well as the average native.
To take your latter example: consider how much a typical Mexican and an average Wisconsin farmer know about pre-Columbian Mexico. Both have major gaps in their knowledge. Then suppose I asked both to study about pre-Columbian Mexico for a month. The Mexican would likely have a lot more resources available to them - like people within their circle, museums, and so forth. And they have a lot more context for what they read, like knowing more of the geography, weather, plants, and animals which are part of the history.
Yes, but the Left has already told the Mexican they don't need to do any of those things, and the demand that she study or learn anything at all about her own culture/history and prove it meritocratically in competition is WHITE SUPREMACY in action, and that she only really needs to be who she is, and embrace the "indigenous ways of knowing", and then just throw in some recipes from the latest vegan cookbook she's written, because she's not even a real game designer and if you claim she should be then YOU'RE A NAZI WHO WANTS WOMEN TO BE RAPED.
Quote from: jhkim on August 03, 2022, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2022, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.
Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.
Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.
And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.
No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:
QuoteEmerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.
Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.
A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.
I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.
More selective quoting from JHKim I see...
Here's the actual text about the topic, rather than the brief middle-of-the-adventure shorter description which was what JHKim for some reason chose to quote.
Faith and Festivals
Worship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. "Don't piss outside the cantina lest you soil a
temple" is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city's many centers of worship. La Catrina—believed to be death herself—is
the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wishes to be celebrated rather than feared.
While numerous festivals are held throughout the year, the most splendid and anticipated is the Night of the Remembered, a celebration that evolved from
ancient funerary rites and draws on the magic of the city. During this night, people can be visited by deceased loved ones if they honor them with an
ofrenda: food and drink enjoyed in life, among other traditional offerings, presented on elaborate altars that guide souls back to the world. The days
leading up to this event are marked by colorful citywide parades that display San Citlán's diverse culture.Note the terms "ofrenda" ("Offering" or sacrifice in spanish) and "altars". But yeah go ahead, tell me this isn't just a renamed Santa Muerte and that this isn't a religious holiday. In a heading entitled FAITH and Festivals.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 04, 2022, 08:24:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 03, 2022, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2022, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 31, 2022, 04:36:54 PM
The adventure you're talking about, for example, features a "mexico" where everyone worships Santa Muerte, the Dia De Los Muertos is a celebration of the death goddess, and also a political event (leftist of course), but NOT catholic.
Are you shitting me? For starters Santa Muerte isn't Catholic, much less Christian in the broader sense, it's a demonic cult only popular among the cartels and other members of the criminal lumpen.
Dia de los Muertos has it's roots firmly in both Prehispanic traditions and in Catholicism since it was sincretically adopted by the priests to ease the conversion of the indians. It is NOT a celebration of Santa Muerte neither is it a political event.
And this is what the Mexican guy wrote? Are we really sure the asshole knows the country? Because he sure as fuck doesn't know the culture, prehispanic or current. My guess is that him being from a northern state is deeply embeded in the Cartels' culture and worship.
No, that isn't what he wrote. Santa Muerte isn't mentioned by name. There is a local spirit called "La Catrina" who some people of the city dress up as, but she is not called a goddess nor is it said that they worship her. It is explicit that there are different temples for different major religions. Here's the text description:
QuoteEmerging from the cenote, the characters find themselves in San Citlan in the midst of the Night of the Remembered celebrations. The characters can make their way through the city without incident, but the festivities are unignorable.
Colorful flowers and paper decorations hang between buildings, and delicious scents waft from the food stalls at every street corner. Locals wearing elaborate masks and costumes celebrate in the streets. Well-dressed skeletons walk alongside pompous-looking business barons, and mischievous children in devil costumes poke at onlookers with toy tridents.
A character who succeeds on a DC 14 Intelligence (History or Religion) check knows the costumes represent La Catrina, patron spirit of the city; Don Roque, a long-dead politician who became the satirical face of the government; and Los Diablitos, comical renditions of fiends from local fables.
I guess Pundit is calling it "political" because the costume satirizing local government, but that seems like a stretch to me.
More selective quoting from JHKim I see...
Here's the actual text about the topic, rather than the brief middle-of-the-adventure shorter description which was what JHKim for some reason chose to quote.
Faith and Festivals
Worship is ingrained in city culture, and major religions have temples ranging from grandiose to quaint. "Don't piss outside the cantina lest you soil a
temple" is a local saying that both offers etiquette advice and references the city's many centers of worship. La Catrina—believed to be death herself—is
the patron spirit of the city. She is a capricious figure who wishes to be celebrated rather than feared.
While numerous festivals are held throughout the year, the most splendid and anticipated is the Night of the Remembered, a celebration that evolved from
ancient funerary rites and draws on the magic of the city. During this night, people can be visited by deceased loved ones if they honor them with an
ofrenda: food and drink enjoyed in life, among other traditional offerings, presented on elaborate altars that guide souls back to the world. The days
leading up to this event are marked by colorful citywide parades that display San Citlán's diverse culture.
Note the terms "ofrenda" ("Offering" or sacrifice in spanish) and "altars". But yeah go ahead, tell me this isn't just a renamed Santa Muerte and that this isn't a religious holiday. In a heading entitled FAITH and Festivals.
La Catrina represents Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Calavera_Catrina
Dia de los Muertos (two days really) is when the spirits of the dearly departed come visit earth to see their family. It has strong elements of ancestor worship but it falls short of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofrenda
We don't worship la catrina we use it to laugh at and to normalize death. So, if a cult around death exists in a pseudo mexican setting it's clearly santa Muerte.
Now, someone tell me that if ANY gringo of European descent dared to write that he wouldn't be immediately condemned for equating Mexicans with the Cartels.
Once more, I have exactly zero problem with the depiction and wouldn't have it if you found the most blond gringo descendant of vikings and he had wrote it.
It becomes an issue only because WotC screams about not using stereotypes and then publishes this.
Of course, the only people that would cancel the author over this are leftards, so, as long as he doesn't do/say ANYTHING (or has in the past) to draw the ire of the cult he's safe and so is WotC.
Because, due to his bloodline, IT IS OKAY when he does it but it wouldn't if a viking descendant did. Because to the left Race/Ethnicity = Culture and because they DO believe in racial memory.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 04, 2022, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2022, 10:43:08 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 30, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Quote from: jhkim on July 30, 2022, 01:07:03 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.
If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.
In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.
But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.
In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.
It's not so much scolding on our part, as much as pointing out the inconsistencies and impossible standards. When everything is racist and culturally insensitive, but they can still get away with doing the same thing they're telling us we're not allowed to do there's no line. It's just arbitrary. This is why even people from their side step over the line and get cancelled from time to time. Cuz it's all based on the whims of whoever decides to have a hissy fit that day, then everyone in social media falls in line and follows along the moment they smell blood in the water.
We're just trying to hold them to the same standard they're setting up for everyone else.
It's jhkim being his usual disingenuos twat and moving the goal posts to cape for WotC/Leftards.
Their only rule is power, they want it and you shouldn't get it. So, they will say whatever to prevent you from getting it. In this case the power to use stereotypes (not all of which are negative nor false) while preventing other publishers to do so lest they be called istophobes.
BTW, if ANYONE needs to protray stereotypical latinos and have a shield just ask me and you can cite me as your "sensitivity reader" for free.
JhKim is worth 1000 tubesocks to the Woke Establishment, because he is very good at pretending to be reasonable and never loses his shit. But in this thread he's been especially sloppy about how he selectively quotes the book.
OK, so just to make sure that I understand the Units of Measurement, 1 jhkim = 1000 Tubesock Army's or 1 jhkim = a kiloTubesock. We now have a valid metric to use when measuring the value a leftist has to the Woke Establishment.
Now, for those fighting against the Woke Establishment, could we use negative Tubesocks for measurements?
You can only have negative socks if the left one is missing. Perhaps the other side is measured in MAGAs where one of those is equal to about 12.5 REEEEs. ;D
Quote from: zircher on August 05, 2022, 12:35:30 AM
You can only have negative socks if the left one is missing. Perhaps the other side is measured in MAGAs where one of those is equal to about 12.5 REEEEs. ;D
But how many REEEEs are in a sock? or in a jhkim?
Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to determine the value of a REEEE since the color of my skin means that my education and experience does not matter. :-)
Stop derailing this thread with off-topic material. That's a warning to everyone.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 09:07:44 PM
La Catrina represents Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Calavera_Catrina
Dia de los Muertos (two days really) is when the spirits of the dearly departed come visit earth to see their family. It has strong elements of ancestor worship but it falls short of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofrenda
We don't worship la catrina we use it to laugh at and to normalize death. So, if a cult around death exists in a pseudo mexican setting it's clearly santa Muerte.
I see nothing in the adventure that suggests a cult of death. La Catrina is described as a local patron spirit who "wishes to be celebrated rather than feared" as Pundit and I quoted earlier. People dress in costumes as her for the festivities, but nothing says that they worship her as a religion. So it seems to me consistent with Day of the Dead and not with Santa Muerte. The adventure specifies that there are many temples to the different major religions - which is in keeping with D&D's polytheism, though it doesn't fit with historical Mexican Catholicism.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 09:07:44 PM
Once more, I have exactly zero problem with the depiction and wouldn't have it if you found the most blond gringo descendant of vikings and he had wrote it.
It becomes an issue only because WotC screams about not using stereotypes and then publishes this.
Within this book, WotC says to not lean into stereotypes when costuming for a game streamed online in a tiny note in the introduction. (a) That's not screaming, and (b) that's not being against stereotypes in general.
Greetings!
Well, I don't "Dress Up" or wear costumes when I DM a game. Sometimes, I wear my Viking Horned Helmet, or my rubber SHARK Head. As for "leaning into stereotypes" I also do that, constantly. I ham it up completely, whether depicting someone from an African-like background, Asian, Indian, Norse Viking, Desert Nomad, whatever.
I also play with the stereotypes of every kind of white person, ever. Fat, greedy Roman merchants, whore strumpets, bearded rogues, crazy demagogues. The list is endless. Snooty, smug Britons! Smooth Frenchmen, elegant Spaniards.
Players fucking LOVE IT--and are often inspired to roleplay more, with more enthusiasm, and more effort. It's all FUN.
Oh yeah. My black friends and Latino friends? They ham up the fucking stereotypes too. Everyone, every culture, is open game. Noone is fucking special or sacred.
That is the way it should be, for everyone, at every table. Don't let the mentally damaged, the pussies, and the Racist Liberal crybabies try and change gaming.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on August 06, 2022, 04:30:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 09:07:44 PM
La Catrina represents Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Calavera_Catrina
Dia de los Muertos (two days really) is when the spirits of the dearly departed come visit earth to see their family. It has strong elements of ancestor worship but it falls short of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofrenda
We don't worship la catrina we use it to laugh at and to normalize death. So, if a cult around death exists in a pseudo mexican setting it's clearly santa Muerte.
I see nothing in the adventure that suggests a cult of death. La Catrina is described as a local patron spirit who "wishes to be celebrated rather than feared" as Pundit and I quoted earlier. People dress in costumes as her for the festivities, but nothing says that they worship her as a religion. So it seems to me consistent with Day of the Dead and not with Santa Muerte. The adventure specifies that there are many temples to the different major religions - which is in keeping with D&D's polytheism, though it doesn't fit with historical Mexican Catholicism.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 04, 2022, 09:07:44 PM
Once more, I have exactly zero problem with the depiction and wouldn't have it if you found the most blond gringo descendant of vikings and he had wrote it.
It becomes an issue only because WotC screams about not using stereotypes and then publishes this.
Within this book, WotC says to not lean into stereotypes when costuming for a game streamed online in a tiny note in the introduction. (a) That's not screaming, and (b) that's not being against stereotypes in general.
Bolding mine.
And here we have the Gringo Liberal explaining to me how people dressing up (something that's related to halloween not Día de los Muertos) makes it totally related to Día de los Muertos...
He's also gaslighting, the text clearly says she's the patron spirit of the city, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the celebration has everything to do with her.
There's only ONE group of people in México that worships a female skeleton: Narcos and other members of the criminal lumpen. They worship a skeleton called? You guessed it, santa muerte.
So, jhkim, in his efforts to protect WotC can read stuff related to Día de los Muertos but not the stuff clearly related with the narco cult.
Then, to top it all, you try to engage (and so distract) in a semantic argument.
Tell me jhkim, do you have another mode that's not lying disingenuous twat?