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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Batjon on October 20, 2020, 02:37:50 am

Title: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Batjon on October 20, 2020, 02:37:50 am
Which is your favorite Star Wars RPG? D6 WEG or FFG?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 20, 2020, 07:05:45 am
D6 by a mile.  It was innovative for its time, and despite some flaws, still plays pretty well.  It also did a pretty good job of supporting flavor with mechanics; you feel like an action hero in that game (until the power creep of later products).
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Melan on October 20, 2020, 08:26:12 am
D6, while not perfect out of the gate, remains an excellent, versatile system that is a nigh-perfect fit for cinematic action adventure. The specific implementation also makes it a great SW game.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 20, 2020, 08:26:53 am
It's not a choice, but my most successful Star Wars campaign was using the d20 rules. It was a game where the characters were part of the Empire and I ran it for my normal third edition D&D group so the game worked well with that setup.

I wanted to like the FFG game, as it looked great and focused on the OT era, but there were just too many mechanical issues and it got frustrating with their copy-and-paste from edition to edition. They even copied sections of the text without applying the previously released errata. I never bought their Jedi game, Force and Destiny, as their "falling to the darkside" rules were comically bad (i.e. Yoda could fall to the Dark Side just by rolling badly).
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Brad on October 20, 2020, 09:33:42 am
Star Wars 1st Edition and it's not even close. You can give a character sheet to a total newbie and they can figure out how to play in two minutes.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on October 20, 2020, 10:33:26 am
I've run both pretty extensively.

I prefer 2e D6. The entire catalog of D6 Star Wars defines Star Wars. Even beyond the cinematic material, beyond the video-games, it fully encompasses all other mediums and has influenced those other mediums on fundamental levels.

System isn't perfect, but it does everything very well.

However - FFG's game captures Star Wars very well. I own the all three lines in their entirety (except the new Ships book - which is fantastically hard to find, but it's just a collation of mostly of ships in all their other books). And it is very complete. The line could end right now and it would stand very well on its own.

What both systems "stumble" on is playing Force users alongside non-Force users without making those Force Users either too weak, or ridiculously too powerful, based purely on the XP curve. If you ran a Force user campaign - you're in good shape. In FFG Star Wars a basic Force User, like in D6, will always be struggling to split XP between their Force powers and Skills. In FFG you can mitigate this with a Talent Tree purchases , but it amounts to the same thing.

If you want those Force Users to be dedicated Jedi/Sith - you're in for a LOooooOOOOng Grind. If you want to play semi-experienced Force Users most GM's grant an additional 150 points for "Knight Level" play... and honestly? It barely scratches the surface. It's not that the FFG system doesn't handle the Force well - it does so very well (arguably better than D6 in terms of "flavor" - but this comes from having a decade+ of latter era development). It's tricky to do a Jedi/Sith + non-Force user game.

If you want to play a non-Force User game... both games are excellent. I think D6 is slightly better overall. But FFG's game is close. The production value is *excellent* the art is good. And contrary to what a lot of people believe - it does not require meta-mechanics nearly as much as naysayers claim. There is tremendous support for it as well (And D6 has *never* suffered from lack of support either).

The only downside to FFG's game that I find commonplace, but did not impact me at all (and I thought it would) - is the dice. It turned out to work very well for me and my group of grizzled asshole players. If I say Star Wars is on the table - and they're ALL D6 veterans, they will choose FFG first every single time. I've tried to get them to go back to D6 - they won't have it.

So my thoughts? D6 is probably slightly better. My reality? I run FFG with D6 material as fluff supplementary material because it's rock solid and my group loves it more.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Aglondir on October 20, 2020, 04:27:00 pm
D20 Saga is my overall favorite, but I've never played FFG.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: lordmalachdrim on October 20, 2020, 04:39:03 pm
Any version that is NOT FFGs
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 20, 2020, 04:54:01 pm
Haven't played a Star Wars RPG in ages. I'd want to use WEG d6 just out of pure nostalgia. (Plus I bought the reprints of the original RPG and the Sourcebook, and I'd love to use them at the table)
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: jeff37923 on October 20, 2020, 05:59:48 pm
WEG d6. So good that some of FFGs best sales were reprints of the original WEG d6 booksi
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Slipshot762 on October 20, 2020, 07:41:07 pm
I love D6 system so much its the only thing i use, any other ttrpg product i might have gets adapted to use D6 system. never tried the ffg version.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: BronzeDragon on October 20, 2020, 08:44:27 pm
WEG Star Wars IS Star Wars.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Torque2100 on October 21, 2020, 08:14:58 am
Any version that's not d20.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Dimitrios on October 21, 2020, 10:46:22 am
Definitely WEG D6 for me.

I have a theory that licensed rpgs do best when the license if for something that isn't the hot property of the day. The heyday of WEG was during a time when Star Wars was not exactly front and center in popular culture. This was before the prequels: Star Wars was 3 movies that everyone remembered fondly and some novels that were read mostly by hardcore fans. Call of Cthulhu established itself at a time when Lovecraft was still a niche geek interest. Even MERP, for all that the system didn't really match the setting, released what I still consider some of the best Middle Earth source material, and that was when LotR was pretty fallow, since the animated movie had failed to make the big splash that the Tolkien estate had been hoping for.

Edit: I realize that CoC isn't technically a licensed rpg, but still.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: sureshot on October 21, 2020, 10:52:05 am
If someone were to release an official 3E SW D6 which fixes the power issues with Jedi I would be in seventh heaven. Until then it's still my goto Star Wars even if I don't allow Jedi as player characters. Or if I do it has to be with the right player.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 21, 2020, 01:24:02 pm
Edit: I realize that CoC isn't technically a licensed rpg, but still.

Didn't Chaosium buy rights from Arkham House? http://www.arkhamhouse.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=ABUS Possibly not rights that actually exist in Law. Or did Chaosium invent ownership of HPL ex nullius?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 21, 2020, 01:39:26 pm
This should have been a poll.

Definitely D6.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Dimitrios on October 21, 2020, 01:40:10 pm
Didn't Chaosium buy rights from Arkham House? http://www.arkhamhouse.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=ABUS Possibly not rights that actually exist in Law. Or did Chaosium invent ownership of HPL ex nullius?

I think you're right, Chaosium did pay something to Arkham House. It's unclear whether they actually needed to, since it's unclear whether AH ever actually owned the rights to HPL's work.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 21, 2020, 01:54:41 pm
I have a theory that licensed rpgs do best when the license if for something that isn't the hot property of the day.
You're probably right, but IP owner don't let their properties go fallow anymore. Even a show like Firefly, which didn't even make a single season, get's constantly milked 18 years later.

You can almost feel the corporate walls around FFG's Star Wars game. They made Han Solo:The RPG yet you can't play Han Solo nor can you fly the Millenium Falcon, just 2nd rate copies. Both WEG and d20 versions of the SW games included stats for the movie characters but the only one I remember in an FFG product was a "less experienced" Lando Calrissian.

I don't see any current day IP holders letting an RPG company expand the lore as freely as WEG was allowed to.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 21, 2020, 02:11:42 pm
To be fair, when WEG started publishing there wasn't much material to work with. As I recall there were only the first three movies and their novelizations, a radio play version of the movies, the Droids cartoon, that special of which George will not speak, and barely more than a handful of novels (Splinter of the Minds Eye and the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies). Now you could fill a large trunk with all the canon and EU material.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Chris24601 on October 21, 2020, 05:47:10 pm
To be fair, when WEG started publishing there wasn't much material to work with.
To be further fair, the whole Expanded Universe owes a TON to the work WEG put into adding detail to the Star Wars Universe.

When Lucasfilm decided to greenlight writing the first novels, Timothy Zahn decided to pull from the WEG material whenever he needed a world or vehicle or species because it was work that had already been done. Timothy Zahn even released a campaign setting DarkStryder for WEG Star Wars, further tying the two together. The result was that WEG was literally the foundation from which all of the Expanded Universe was built upon.

In turn, the success of the Expanded Universe is, from accounts, part of the reason that George Lucas decided to do the prequels. There were other factors, like technology finally catching up to his vision, but the financial success of the EU was what convinced him that there was still enough interest in Star Wars to start working on the prequels.

Of course George completely ignored the EU other than a few choice names (ex. Coruscant and its "city-planet" nature came right from Timothy Zahn) and that was, honestly, the start of the problems for the EU as core elements of their established canon had to be thrown out and/or retconned to match the prequels. They also had to trash whole storylines because of edicts from above... Anakin Solo was killed off precisely because George felt it would cause confusion to have two characters in Star Wars named Anakin; so even though Anakin was set up to be the hero of the New Jedi Order trilogy who would redeem the name Anakin, he got unceremoniously ganked midway through and the entire rest of that series was a scramble to recover and further resulted in a cascade of other changes that resulted in such idiocy as "60 is the new 30" to explain why Luke, Han and Leia were still running around as the main protagonists because they'd killed off 90% of the younger generation due to one edict or another.

Frankly, Star Wars is largely the mess it is today in part because the success of WEG and Timothy Zahn enjoyed in reinvigorating what was then a mostly fondly remembered, but no longer anything like a cultural zeitgeist, film series and everyone and his uncle (including Uncle George himself) deciding to put their stamp on the Star Wars Universe (even The Mouse... which did started its stamping by stamping out everything except the actual films and The Clone Wars animated series).
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 21, 2020, 06:06:06 pm
Of course George completely ignored the EU other than a few choice names (ex. Coruscant and its "city-planet" nature came right from Timothy Zahn)

Zahn likely nicked the idea of a city-planet from Foundation's Trantor. [/pedant]
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 21, 2020, 06:20:59 pm
To be further fair, the whole Expanded Universe owes a TON to the work WEG put into adding detail to the Star Wars Universe.

Yep.

My understanding was he was given WEG materials before he wrote the Heir to Empire trilogy and he incorporated a number of things into his novels.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: soundchaser on October 21, 2020, 07:42:43 pm
Huge d6 fan

Didn’t like the walls of text in FFG. PLUS, the system seemed to cater to gear...

These days we use Cinematic Unisystem. Perfect in handling S/J viz non force users.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 21, 2020, 11:48:16 pm
To be further fair, the whole Expanded Universe owes a TON to the work WEG put into adding detail to the Star Wars Universe.

I'll never forgive WEG for inventing the "Backup Hyperdrive". I get angry just thinking about it.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: VisionStorm on October 22, 2020, 12:13:22 am
To be fair, when WEG started publishing there wasn't much material to work with.
To be further fair, the whole Expanded Universe owes a TON to the work WEG put into adding detail to the Star Wars Universe.

When Lucasfilm decided to greenlight writing the first novels, Timothy Zahn decided to pull from the WEG material whenever he needed a world or vehicle or species because it was work that had already been done. Timothy Zahn even released a campaign setting DarkStryder for WEG Star Wars, further tying the two together. The result was that WEG was literally the foundation from which all of the Expanded Universe was built upon.

In turn, the success of the Expanded Universe is, from accounts, part of the reason that George Lucas decided to do the prequels. There were other factors, like technology finally catching up to his vision, but the financial success of the EU was what convinced him that there was still enough interest in Star Wars to start working on the prequels.

Of course George completely ignored the EU other than a few choice names (ex. Coruscant and its "city-planet" nature came right from Timothy Zahn) and that was, honestly, the start of the problems for the EU as core elements of their established canon had to be thrown out and/or retconned to match the prequels. They also had to trash whole storylines because of edicts from above... Anakin Solo was killed off precisely because George felt it would cause confusion to have two characters in Star Wars named Anakin; so even though Anakin was set up to be the hero of the New Jedi Order trilogy who would redeem the name Anakin, he got unceremoniously ganked midway through and the entire rest of that series was a scramble to recover and further resulted in a cascade of other changes that resulted in such idiocy as "60 is the new 30" to explain why Luke, Han and Leia were still running around as the main protagonists because they'd killed off 90% of the younger generation due to one edict or another.

Frankly, Star Wars is largely the mess it is today in part because the success of WEG and Timothy Zahn enjoyed in reinvigorating what was then a mostly fondly remembered, but no longer anything like a cultural zeitgeist, film series and everyone and his uncle (including Uncle George himself) deciding to put their stamp on the Star Wars Universe (even The Mouse... which did started its stamping by stamping out everything except the actual films and The Clone Wars animated series).

If WEG Star Wars hadn’t existed, George Lucas wouldn’t have made the prequels, invoke the wrath of the fanbase, become disenchanted with the franchise and ultimately sold it off to Disney, so they could make their crappy sequels and ruin what was left of the franchise.

Let that sink in.

WEG Star Wars RPG single handedly set off the chain of events that ultimately ruined Star Wars. And all so that a bunch of nerds could play the greatest movie franchise RPG ever created.

Mind = Blown  :o
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Melan on October 22, 2020, 03:44:04 am
Still worth it!  ;D
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 22, 2020, 03:56:29 am
To be further fair, the whole Expanded Universe owes a TON to the work WEG put into adding detail to the Star Wars Universe.

I'll never forgive WEG for inventing the "Backup Hyperdrive". I get angry just thinking about it.

They needed some way to explain how the Millennium Falcon with a broken hyperdrive could make it from Hoth to Bespin Cloud City. What's your alternative?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Opaopajr on October 22, 2020, 06:07:36 am
WEG D6.  8) L'Esprit de (mon) 'coeur'.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 22, 2020, 08:09:32 am
They needed some way to explain how the Millennium Falcon with a broken hyperdrive could make it from Hoth to Bespin Cloud City. What's your alternative?
That Bespin and Hoth are extremely close together. The backup hyperdrive creates an even bigger problem as the entire reason they needed to go to Bespin was because they couldn't escape the TIE fighters earlier in the movie. A feat they could have accomplished if a backup hyperdrive was available.

Second on WEG's big mistake list is their insistence that ships cannot change course while in hyperdrive despite the Tantive IV clearly doing so in the radio drama. This mistake, unfortunately, was transmitted to the EU and even to various other games (but was finally cleared up in The Force Awakens).
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Chris24601 on October 22, 2020, 10:08:01 am
That Bespin and Hoth are extremely close together.
Them being very close together actually helps the overall timeline in ESB a LOT as it actually gives Luke a lot more time to train with Yoda before running off to save Han and Leia. Having a month or more to get a crash course while the Falcon traveled at sublight to Bespin makes his capabilities during the duel with Vader a bit more plausible.

The really funny thing for me regarding the hyperdrive though was how WEG interpreted "Point Five past lightspeed" into a "x1/2 hyperdrive multiplier" that became the EU and new Disney canon standard everywhere EXCEPT in Timothy Zahn's books where "Point" was treated like "Warp" in Star Trek (complete with exponential scale and an explanation related to how many layers "deep" into hyperspace the drive could push the ship... the deeper the layer the faster the speed relative to realspace) which made the whole thing make a LOT more sense than the "multiply by a standard speed that has been arbitrarily determined to be 1x."
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: VisionStorm on October 22, 2020, 10:44:48 am
Still worth it!  ;D

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/78/f9/b9/78f9b9fe9214f605ed201adad3c85868.jpg)
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Simlasa on October 22, 2020, 11:19:28 am
My understanding was he was given WEG materials before he wrote the Heir to Empire trilogy and he incorporated a number of things into his novels.
Long ago I was in an off season lodge in the seqoias with my new age girlfriend when I saw a guy sitting with a small stack of WEG Star Wars books. I spotted the technical manual on top.
I geeked out for a moment and asked if he played, but it turned out it was Mr. Zahn, working on a book.
I had never heard of him and I wasn't really a big Star Wars fan, but he told me he was a published author so I figured he wasn't just writing fan fiction. Plus, he looked like a serious grown-up... dressed nice and well groomed.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 22, 2020, 11:43:05 am
That Bespin and Hoth are extremely close together.
It wasn't called the Bespin-Hoth system. This implies that the two planets were far enough apart so that a sublight drive would be too slow.

Quote
The backup hyperdrive creates an even bigger problem as the entire reason they needed to go to Bespin was because they couldn't escape the TIE fighters earlier in the movie. A feat they could have accomplished if a backup hyperdrive was available.
They were trying to escape the Star Destroyers. Which required a hyperdrive that was not slower than that of a Star Destroyer.


Quote
Second on WEG's big mistake list is their insistence that ships cannot change course while in hyperdrive despite the Tantive IV clearly doing so in the radio drama.
It's consistent with the first three movies. Regardless, it's hardly a "big mistake."


Quote
This mistake, unfortunately, was transmitted to the EU and even to various other games (but was finally cleared up in The Force Awakens).
TFA was the movie where the destruction of the Hosnian system was instantaneously visible throughout the galaxy. You thought that cleared things up?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 22, 2020, 11:52:49 am
the deeper the layer the faster the speed relative to realspace) which made the whole thing make a LOT more sense than the "multiply by a standard speed that has been arbitrarily determined to be 1x."
Having a multiple does make it easy to calculate travel times in an RPG since you can simply multiply a single value form a chart. Personally, I'd rather they used a multiple die scale for hyperspace speed exactly like they did for regular sub-light speed. That way you could run hyperspace chases using the same rules for sub-light or vehicle chases.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on October 22, 2020, 12:04:56 pm
How many of you actively have Star Wars in your gaming-go-to cycle?

It's probably #2 in my group.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Gwarh on October 22, 2020, 12:34:30 pm
Anyone here who is a WEG d6 Star Wars fan, are you aware of the fan projected "Star Wars REUP (Revised, Expanded & Updated)" version of the game. And if so what do you think of it compared to the original or revised version of the game?

I own it and made a dead tree version of it but I've not thoroughly read through it, as I was to poor as a teen unable to afford the WEG books the first time around.

Link to the REUP version of the rules
http://d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf (http://d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf)
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 22, 2020, 12:52:28 pm
I sometimes use it for reference, but not really for rules. My inclination nowadays is to move in the direction of simpler, rather than more complicated or detailed rules and REUP doesn't make the rules simpler.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Brad on October 22, 2020, 03:00:34 pm
How many of you actively have Star Wars in your gaming-go-to cycle?

It's probably #2 in my group.

D6 1st edition is my favorite RPG, used to play it a ton. No one seems that interested now, which is somewhat annoying...

Anyone here who is a WEG d6 Star Wars fan, are you aware of the fan projected "Star Wars REUP (Revised, Expanded & Updated)" version of the game. And if so what do you think of it compared to the original or revised version of the game?

I own it and made a dead tree version of it but I've not thoroughly read through it, as I was to poor as a teen unable to afford the WEG books the first time around.

Link to the REUP version of the rules
http://d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf (http://d6holocron.com/downloads/books/REUP.pdf)

It's alright. I dislike the 2nd RE which is what it seems to be based on. I greatly prefer the simplicity of 1st, so while it seems like a really good reference, I'd never actually play it. I DID get the FFG reprints are pretty nice, though. When I was a kid I couldn't afford the Sourcebook until I was in high school, so we just played with the main rulebook for several years. Had to make up Vader's stats, we didn't do too bad.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 22, 2020, 03:14:28 pm
How many of you actively have Star Wars in your gaming-go-to cycle?

My group has switched over to Traveller for sci-fi gaming. Star Wars doesn't get much interest anymore. We still haven't played any X-Wing since 2nd edition came out.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on October 22, 2020, 04:23:08 pm
That's what I'm curious about.

Because my group is (was) *die*-hard D6 Star Wars super-fans. I can't get them to willingly play D6 over FFG (which I convinced them all to try).

I think partially it's that we enjoyed FFG enough, so close to D6 that we're all monetarily invested.

Three of us in the group own *everything* and I'm the only one that GM's it. We all still own a LOT of D6 stuff... but for some reason can't get back to it. I still use a lot of it as reference for fluff and procedural stuff.

Bounty Hunters, Tramp Freighters, and Crime Syndicates are indispensible.

Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 22, 2020, 04:34:16 pm
They needed some way to explain how the Millennium Falcon with a broken hyperdrive could make it from Hoth to Bespin Cloud City. What's your alternative?
That Bespin and Hoth are extremely close together. The backup hyperdrive creates an even bigger problem as the entire reason they needed to go to Bespin was because they couldn't escape the TIE fighters earlier in the movie. A feat they could have accomplished if a backup hyperdrive was available.

The Falcon's trip from Hoth to Bespin is a worse mistake than the line about parsecs from the first movie.
It's in the script that Han was bullshiting the "rubes" to try and impress them and get the job.

The nearest solar system to earth is Alpha Centauri, at 4.37 light years distance. The best case trip from Hoth to Bespin would be comparable. That means the Falcon should have taken years to make the journey without FTL.
If Bespin was in the Hoth system, (which the movie plainly says it is a seperate system) our solar system is 1.5 light years across. The journey would still have taken months up to a year and half.

And that's at light speed. None of the ships in Star Wars are shown to muck about with near-relatavistic speeeds. The trip should have taken decades or centuries.

Space is big. Any time a sci-fi show that wants to have any kind of versimiltude should do a quick google* check on distances before writing something involving space travel times. Or go JJ Abrams and just not give any fucks. Put all the planets right next to each other and eat your popcorn.

*Yes, Empire was written before Google. There were plenty of sci-fi writers and real astronomers who could have told them about FTL and distances between solar systems.

Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on October 22, 2020, 04:40:04 pm
I sometimes use it for reference, but not really for rules. My inclination nowadays is to move in the direction of simpler, rather than more complicated or detailed rules and REUP doesn't make the rules simpler.

Looking it over...

Yeah this is pretty complete. There are things in it I don't care for - the *massive* skill list. But I can't help but bask in the pure love these guys put into creating it.

I'd run the *shit* out of it if my players were down. I might could convince them with this.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 22, 2020, 04:55:09 pm
Last time I ran D6 half the group were not fans and not very familiar with the movies, but are big Expanse fans. They found the 1930s-style tech that is Star Wars rather confusing. Next time I pitch Sci-Fi, I might have to try Traveller instead.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 22, 2020, 05:10:26 pm
How many of you actively have Star Wars in your gaming-go-to cycle?

I don't think I've run a Star Wars universe game since 1989. I use D6 system for my Mini Six Primeval Thule campaign every week or two.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Eldritch_Knight on October 23, 2020, 03:47:12 am
If someone were to release an official 3E SW D6 which fixes the power issues with Jedi I would be in seventh heaven. Until then it's still my goto Star Wars even if I don't allow Jedi as player characters. Or if I do it has to be with the right player.

Someone basically did.
 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe- (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe-)
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Chris24601 on October 23, 2020, 11:16:59 am
If someone were to release an official 3E SW D6 which fixes the power issues with Jedi I would be in seventh heaven. Until then it's still my goto Star Wars even if I don't allow Jedi as player characters. Or if I do it has to be with the right player.

Someone basically did.
 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe- (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe-)
Not exactly... WEG Star Wars REU cleaned up some things, but the power disparity between Force-users and non-Force-users is the same as it’s always been in the d6 system.

The fundamental problem is that the game is trying to model two different tiers of dramatic characters using the same system. Luke as the Hero of the Hero’s Journey was written to be on a different tier with a different tier of opponents than his supporting cast.

WEG works fine when everyone is a Jedi (ex. I’ve played in several successful Tales of the Jedi-era campaigns) or everyone is a non-Jedi. But as soon as you have a mixed party things get obviously unbalanced.

Basically I think the OP is asking for something more akin to the SWTOR treatment that gave the non-Force-classes sufficient edges in specific skills and equipment to actually go toe-to-toe with your average Jedi/Sith (not everyone is a Skywalker/Palpatine/Kenobi).

For example, the Bounty Hunter class is an actual Mandalorian, so lightsaber resistant armor, a jet-pack, grapple-line and rockets (AoE being something a lightsaber can’t deflect).

Or the Smuggler, who gets either a portable force-field for instant cover or a stealth generator and a variety of dirty trick devices (including a scattergun and grenades because, again, AoE’s can’t be blocked by a lightsaber).

Basically, in WEG the cost of Force skills is too low relative to their benefits. Frankly, thd proper fix is to price not just the initial 1D, but every pip of improvement  as attributes rather than as skills -or- if you made each Force power a separate skill using control/sense/alter as the attribute.

As it stands right now, you pay either 1 starting attribute die or 10 character points for the first 1D (attribute cost), but then only the number in front of the die CP for each additional pip (skill costs) and can pick a new Force power each time you gain a pip.

This wouldn’t be so bad if each Force power had to be trained as it’s own skill, just like every other skill is. But instead EVERY Force power uses just those three skill ratings for everything so you basically only ever need to improve just these three skills (and get a new power/use for the skill each time you improve it) to completely dominate non-Force-users.

To put some actual numbers down, it costs 10cp for 1D in a Force skill, then 1cp for +1 pip for the next three, then 2 for the next three +1 pips, then 3, 4, etc. So to get a 4D Force skill (which is devastating vs. non-Force characters) takes 28cp starting from nothing (they also get 10 Force powers). By contrast, raising a single normal skill from 3D (a mid-range PC score) to 5D+1 is 26cp (and you need multiple skills for just about anything... blaster+dodge for ranged combat, melee+parry for close combat, starship piliting+gunnery+shields for starship combat).

If instead you required the Force skills to paid for like attributes then getting to 4D would cost 190cp... or enough to raise a single skill from 3D to 11D or FIVE skills to a quite competent 6D.

Similarly, if you made each Force power a separate skill then you’d be able to get comparable results with a single trick to a skill for the same price, but only that one specific trick, not to every power in your ever growing list.

If you want to make it easier to balance Force and non-Force PCs in the same game I recommend one of the two rules above (personally I favor C/S/A costed as attributes with the usual attribute improvement limits and each Force power a separately improved skill). Then if you want a game with full-fledged Jedi (vs. apprentices/neophytes) you give everyone enough CP to buy up their various skills so where the Force-users have various Force powers the non-Force users are extremely competent in non-Force skills (like the 13D Han Solo had in Freighter piloting).
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 23, 2020, 04:19:49 pm
Not exactly... WEG Star Wars REU cleaned up some things, but the power disparity between Force-users and non-Force-users is the same as it’s always been in the d6 system.

The fundamental problem is that the game is trying to model two different tiers of dramatic characters using the same system. Luke as the Hero of the Hero’s Journey was written to be on a different tier with a different tier of opponents than his supporting cast.
Two problems actually. You mentioned one. The second problem is that some people want to use the same system to play Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters like we see in the prequel films. The system wasn't designed to do the latter, since those prequels didn't even exist.

Quote
WEG works fine when everyone is a Jedi (ex. I’ve played in several successful Tales of the Jedi-era campaigns) or everyone is a non-Jedi. But as soon as you have a mixed party things get obviously unbalanced.
A starting character doesn't really work well as a skilled Jedi. They end up about as powerful as a youngling in the prequel era. The character would need significant beefing up in their Force abilities to even equal the weakest Padawan we see.

Quote
Basically I think the OP is asking for something more akin to the SWTOR treatment that gave the non-Force-classes sufficient edges in specific skills and equipment to actually go toe-to-toe with your average Jedi/Sith (not everyone is a Skywalker/Palpatine/Kenobi).
I was uncertain whether the OP was concerned with the Jedi eventually get too powerful or the Jedi start out far too weak side of the system.

Quote
As it stands right now, you pay either 1 starting attribute die or 10 character points for the first 1D (attribute cost), but then only the number in front of the die CP for each additional pip (skill costs) and can pick a new Force power each time you gain a pip.
Jedi characters are very weak initially. 3D in Control and Sense (the highest starting level) doesn't even let you reliably and safely use a light saber. Paying one starting attribute die for each of the three Force abilities is a significant offset to Force skills. But if played long enough to grow into their abilities in the Force they do tend to end up more powerful. It's not unlike wizards in OD&D.

You're right though that paying 10 character points* to learn to use the Force is a very low cost, which in the RAW is only balanced out by story or other non-character point offsets and by the time needed to train. From a min-max, power-gamer perspective it would make sense to start out with all your attribute dice and learn the Force abilities during play.

Also note that the 10 character point cost is in the 2R&E version. In the earlier 2E version the cost was 20 not 10 character points. The higher cost didn't eliminate the problem, but it helped.

We house ruled significantly higher costs for gaining Force abilities after character creation. The 20 CP cost was only for learning the last of the three Force abilities. Learning the second to the last ability cost twice that (40 CPs) and if you started play with no Force abilities, then gaining the first one cost 80 CPs in play. So to gain Control 1D, Sense 1D, and Alter 1D during play would cost a total of 140 character points.


It's a nitpick, but the cost to increase a skill from 3D to 11D is 156 character points. 190 CPs gets would get you from 3D to 12D with 1 CP left over. And yes, I created a lookup table to calculate such things. It let me figure out how many CPs different PCs had been awarded and had been used for skill and ability increases.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Lurkndog on October 24, 2020, 12:40:51 pm
Huge d6 fan

Didn’t like the walls of text in FFG. PLUS, the system seemed to cater to gear...

These days we use Cinematic Unisystem. Perfect in handling S/J viz non force users.

Which Cinematic Unisystem rulebook are you using?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Valatar on October 25, 2020, 01:39:26 am
I'm a big fan of the FFG version, have run and played in several successful campaigns for it.  I feel it's a very cohesive system and manages a tight balance for cinematic-ish gameplay while not going all bonkers on the power levels.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on October 25, 2020, 10:11:07 pm
I'd say the FFG system handles Force users better in terms of keeping non-Force users and Force users on the same playing field. The top-end will see Force users being *crazy* powerful. But the system for non-Force users can make them pretty crazy powerful too - with the assumption they are purchasing and upgrading their gear and buying the Talents that will exploit that gear.

Ranged/melee characters with the right talents are *extremely* lethal. And if you manage your game contextually to where there is a good reason for Jedi/Sith to consort with non-force users, it can work very well with much less overhead than D6 in my experience.

Support characters are already so specialized they will usually outclass Force users (though not always) in those arenas, or at minimum will be very competitive.

Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Marchand on October 27, 2020, 01:35:44 am
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.

The first example I had in mind was Han pulling his blaster on Vader, and all Vader has to do is wave his hand. OK, but then that's Darth frickin' Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi to have ever existed turned Sith Lord, i.e. someone who made a Faustian bargain for even more power.

We don't see much by way of run-of-the-mill Jedi in action, but we do know they can get taken out by clone troopers, admittedly in a surprise attack and with massive weight of numbers. Plus there are Jedi casualties fighting drones at the end of Attack of the Clones.

So, it's at least arguable that lower level Force users should be competitive with mundanes. Then the likes of Mandalorians can compete even with mid-level. Once you get up to Skywalker/Palpatine level, forget it.

I'd probably try and do it in Mythras using selected mysticism for lightside and even more selected sorcery for darkside. There is a samizdat Star Wars book floating around on the web for RQ6, which is 99% the same as Mythras.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: HappyDaze on October 27, 2020, 05:37:54 am
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.

The first example I had in mind was Han pulling his blaster on Vader, and all Vader has to do is wave his hand. OK, but then that's Darth frickin' Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi to have ever existed turned Sith Lord, i.e. someone who made a Faustian bargain for even more power.

We don't see much by way of run-of-the-mill Jedi in action, but we do know they can get taken out by clone troopers, admittedly in a surprise attack and with massive weight of numbers. Plus there are Jedi casualties fighting drones at the end of Attack of the Clones.

So, it's at least arguable that lower level Force users should be competitive with mundanes. Then the likes of Mandalorians can compete even with mid-level. Once you get up to Skywalker/Palpatine level, forget it.

I'd probably try and do it in Mythras using selected mysticism for lightside and even more selected sorcery for darkside. There is a samizdat Star Wars book floating around on the web for RQ6, which is 99% the same as Mythras.
As an extreme example, General Grievous was able to defeat many Jedi in lightsaber duels using mundane skill and cybernetic enhancement.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 27, 2020, 02:26:53 pm
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.
Well canonically there are at least 4 or 5 power levels among Jedi Force users.

1. Younglings
2. Force users who failed to be selected as a Padawan or apprentice. Presumably some Younglings are more powerful than those who are not selected by a Jedi to be their apprentice. (This may no longer be canon. The Agricultural Corps or AgriCorps still seems to be canon. Not so clear if Younglings can fail to be selected as Padawans, though it seems reasonable that becoming an apprentice is more than just a participation medal.)
3. Padawans
4. Jedi Knights
5. Jedi Masters

And there seems to be some significant overlap in power, e.g., as an apprentice, Anakin seems to quickly become as powerful as some Jedi Knights.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Marchand on October 27, 2020, 08:49:49 pm
Never heard of this AgriCorps - is that where they put failed younglings?

The whole thing about scooping them up so young is rife with really dark possibilities. Apart from ripping these kids away from their families, what is the attitude to Force sensitives who fail or are unwilling to become Jedi..?

I can buy Anakin's rapid escalation in power as he is clearly not a run-of-the-mill Jedi.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 27, 2020, 09:11:50 pm
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.
Well canonically there are at least 4 or 5 power levels among Jedi Force users.

1. Younglings
2. Force users who failed to be selected as a Padawan or apprentice. Presumably some Younglings are more powerful than those who are not selected by a Jedi to be their apprentice. (This may no longer be canon. The Agricultural Corps or AgriCorps still seems to be canon. Not so clear if Younglings can fail to be selected as Padawans, though it seems reasonable that becoming an apprentice is more than just a participation medal.)
3. Padawans
4. Jedi Knights
5. Jedi Masters

And there seems to be some significant overlap in power, e.g., as an apprentice, Anakin seems to quickly become as powerful as some Jedi Knights.

I don't think those categories are tied to actual power level, though.  As you say, Anakin had a "knack" for the force (so did Luke) that put his innate ability above the average, but he lacked training.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 27, 2020, 09:14:22 pm
Never heard of this AgriCorps - is that where they put failed younglings?

The whole thing about scooping them up so young is rife with really dark possibilities. Apart from ripping these kids away from their families, what is the attitude to Force sensitives who fail or are unwilling to become Jedi..?


That's a good question. One of the central conflicts in the prequels was the "rules" of the Jedi versus what one Jedi's desires. But it opened up a huge can of worms about what those rules *specifically* are, and what the penalties for breaking them are.

Are children forcibly removed from their families if they are potential Jedi? Are they given a choice? Do you get a tax writeoff if your kid is serving in the Jedi order?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 27, 2020, 10:22:19 pm
I don't think those categories are tied to actual power level, though.  As you say, Anakin had a "knack" for the force (so did Luke) that put his innate ability above the average, but he lacked training.
I assume there is some minimum threshold of power to advance. Clearly it is not the only criterion (some kind of test of worthiness seems included), but it makes sense that power is a criterion. It seems to be implied in a number of places that a Jedi Master is able to handle difficult situations - which would support some minimum level of power to be considered to become a master. Additionally having minimum levels of power to advance makes sense from a game standpoint both for player advancement and also because the WEG rules require a teacher to exceed the skill of the student to give the student a training benefit.

Are children forcibly removed from their families if they are potential Jedi? Are they given a choice? Do you get a tax writeoff if your kid is serving in the Jedi order?
Strongly encouraged I would think. Very strongly encouraged if they are strong in the Force. Affect Mind might be used, which would be a forced removal of sorts. (Pun intended.) I would think prestige might be attached to the family of a Jedi child, though monetary inducements don't seem unreasonable.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Marchand on October 28, 2020, 01:41:09 am
As anyone with kids knows, toddlers are essentially sociopathic, so maybe a force-sensitive kid pretty quickly becomes an orphan anyway!

Less egregiously, if you hit the one in ten billion or whatever jackpot of having a Force-sensitive child, you might be culturally conditioned to regard it as a great honour to hand it over, plus maybe slightly relieved. And you might get major benefits.

But then don't the prequels suggest Force sensitivity is at least partly hereditary? That would suggest the Jedi Order is hereditary, but then Jedi aren't supposed to form personal attachments like families. Maybe they clone existing Jedi. Or existing Jedi get it on and then the resulting kids get handed over.

Any way you cut it is quite dark and unappealing. Am I over-thinking this? Definitely.

Given it's pretty clear from the films that the Republic's writ doesn't run across the whole Galaxy, there must be force users who don't get picked up by the Jedi. It's also indicated that the Jedi Order don't like accepting people for training past a certain very young age. What happens to the ones who slip through the net for a while? A choice between life imprisonment/exile or the wrong end of a lightsaber?

It's kind of reminiscent of harvesting psykers in 40K.

No wonder people go Sith...

Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Slipshot762 on October 28, 2020, 02:15:50 am
for star wars :
tossing out control sense alter and just making force powers be skills under perception 
changing force points to render max normal roll instead of doubling die codes.
giving jedi a force point cap equal to total force skill dice and allowing them to regen at a rate of 1 per die of perception between encounters 
requiring the spending of a force point to activate a power
making non-force users use melee combat for lightsabers
folding lightsaber combat power into jedi exclusive lightsaber skill (uses force points for parrying blaster shots)
dumping bonus to hit and to damage from lightsaber combat power
use of dueling blades chart for melee combat

doing all these things the disparity between jedi and normies evaporates, and the duels look more like obi-wan v anakin in revenge of the sith instead of one-round one-hit bushido blade duels that materialize in the default rules
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 28, 2020, 03:48:08 am
changing force points to render max normal roll instead of doubling die codes.

Mini Six D6 system has Hero Points just give +6 to a roll, max three (+18) per roll. Works much better than doubling IME.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 28, 2020, 04:57:42 pm
The Mini-Six rule significantly weakens Force Points to that point that 1 FP < 2 CPs. Might as well simplify further and either drop Force Points or drop Character Points.

With either Force Point change, beginning characters won't be able to do any amazing things during the adventure - i.e. they can't double their dice totals and they only have 1 Force Point (2 FPs if Force Sensitive).
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 29, 2020, 03:30:24 am
The Mini-Six rule significantly weakens Force Points to that point that 1 FP < 2 CPs. Might as well simplify further and either drop Force Points or drop Character Points.

Not sure exactly, what you're saying, but in Mini Six you can't spend Character Points to improve rolls, they are only for experience. Only HP improve rolls, up to three (+18) per roll.

Re 'amazing things', well you can start with 6D in a skill and after accumulating a couple HP/FP you can add +18 to a roll, where an amazing thing has a TN around 30 or so. So you can certainly play Luke blowing up the Death Star a few sessions in to the campaign.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Slipshot762 on October 29, 2020, 06:36:35 am
Don't forget that in D6 spending a cp doesn't buy you a die but a WILD die, which is just as likely to ruin your day as it is to make it, ergo having a forcepoint forego a roll entirely and just render max result is particularly advantageous when in a no room for error situation. Wild dies that come up as 1's after you buy 3 or 4 of them thinking to push yourself to victory are so, so, bitter in their rebuke.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Chris24601 on October 29, 2020, 11:19:22 am
Wild dice bought spending CP don’t have the “complication” or take away another die parts though.

In this case all the “wild” refers to is that it will explode if you roll a 6 on it.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 29, 2020, 11:51:52 am
Re 'amazing things', well you can start with 6D in a skill and after accumulating a couple HP/FP you can add +18 to a roll, where an amazing thing has a TN around 30 or so. So you can certainly play Luke blowing up the Death Star a few sessions in to the campaign.
As I said, per the rules a new character starts out with 1 (possibly 2) Force Points. That allows the brand new character with 6D in a skill to spend 1 FP and roll double the dice. That's an additional +6D (average value 21 points). This is better than spending three Hero Points in Mini Six.

If the skill is lower, say 4D then 1 FP gives +4D (average value 14 points). This is better than spending 2 Hero Points in Mini Six.

Unless characters in Mini Six start out with 3 or more Hero Points they can't even get to that +18 until after they played for a while. So they can't do amazing things from the get go.

Thus 3 Hero Points is about equal to 1 Force Point. So the players will need to a lot more Hero Points than they would Force Points to be of a similar power level. That's an observation, it's not necessarily a criticism.

Don't forget that in D6 spending a cp doesn't buy you a die but a WILD die, which is just as likely to ruin your day as it is to make it
No it can’t ruin your day.

Spending a character point always results in a higher total. On a six you add the 6 and roll the die again. On a 1 you just add the 1. Getting a 1 on dice from character points does not subtract a die and it does not result in a complication. This is explained in the section on Character Points on page 83 of the 2R&E rule book.

EDIT: Scooped by Chris on dice from character points.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Brad on October 29, 2020, 12:08:46 pm
All that Wild Die crap is exactly why I prefer 1st edition...you HAVE to spend Force points to accomplish ridiculous tasks, you can't just rely on luck. It really drives home the idea that heroes use the Force because "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 29, 2020, 04:01:06 pm
Thus 3 Hero Points is about equal to 1 Force Point. So the players will need to a lot more Hero Points than they would Force Points to be of a similar power level.

That seems about right from my experience with 1e SW & Mini Six, yup.  The Mini Six power level seems closer to the original trilogy than the d6 SW rules are. d6 SW makes even starting PCs so powerful, they typically don't behave the way the adventures assume - why run from a Stormtrooper squad when you can spend a FP, get 12D in Blaster, and take down six of them in one round?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Brad on October 29, 2020, 04:33:11 pm
That seems about right from my experience with 1e SW & Mini Six, yup.  The Mini Six power level seems closer to the original trilogy than the d6 SW rules are. d6 SW makes even starting PCs so powerful, they typically don't behave the way the adventures assume - why run from a Stormtrooper squad when you can spend a FP, get 12D in Blaster, and take down six of them in one round?

You mean like what Luke does when they're escaping the Death Star in the Millenium Falcon? Probably spent a Force point swinging across the chasm and blowing up the Death Star, too. All Dramatically Appropriate moments, hence he got the points back and probably an extra. Same with Han and the asteroid field.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 29, 2020, 04:39:07 pm
You mean like what Luke does when they're escaping the Death Star in the Millenium Falcon?

Well, no.
Although the Stormtrooper massacres in Rogue One did very much remind me of GMing D6 Star Wars.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Brad on October 29, 2020, 04:53:37 pm
Well, no.
Although the Stormtrooper massacres in Rogue One did very much remind me of GMing D6 Star Wars.

He stands in the bay, shoots what, four or five of them? Then a small control box which shuts the blast door and keeps Vader from coming through. That's around five actions, one of which probably has a 15 or even 20 difficulty. Let's say it's 20, and Luke has a 6D6 in blaster. He spends a Force point, which means he's still rolling 7D6 per blast, which makes a 20 like what, a 60% chance of success? Without a Force point, he's rolling 1D6, so good luck!
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Slipshot762 on October 29, 2020, 06:52:02 pm
Wild dice bought spending CP don’t have the “complication” or take away another die parts though.

In this case all the “wild” refers to is that it will explode if you roll a 6 on it.
i must've missed that, or perhaps its worded differently in D6 fantasy, I'll have to report back after checking the book to be sure.

ETA
you are correct, even D6 fantasy says to just count it as a 1. of course spending precious cp for just a +1 WOULD totally ruin my day :P
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on October 29, 2020, 09:12:12 pm
d6 SW makes even starting PCs so powerful, they typically don't behave the way the adventures assume - why run from a Stormtrooper squad when you can spend a FP, get 12D in Blaster, and take down six of them in one round?
Well one reason not to is that the troopers each get their first action before you get to roll your second shot. (Unless you are using the rules for Haste.)

A second reason is that as a beginning character you only have 1 (or maybe 2) Force Points for the whole adventure.


even D6 fantasy says to just count it as a 1. of course spending precious cp for just a +1 WOULD totally ruin my day :P
It's bad. But not as bad as rolling a second 1 when you decide to spend another character point.  :'(
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 30, 2020, 09:41:22 am
He stands in the bay, shoots what, four or five of them?

This doesn't ring a bell.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Chris24601 on October 30, 2020, 10:47:35 am
He stands in the bay, shoots what, four or five of them?

This doesn't ring a bell.
I believe he’s speaking of right after Obi-Wan dies and Luke just starts opening up on the Stormtroopers as the Falcon is prepping for lift-off. It literally takes Obi-Wan’s ghost yelling “Run Luke, Run!” to snap him out of it.

It’s also not quite as extreme as made out to be and spread over what would probably be a couple rounds actually. He may have spent some CP or a Force Point on pegging the door panel (high TN for a small target), but otherwise he only hit 2-3 troopers over the course a couple combat rounds.

Here’s the scene in question;

Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Brad on October 30, 2020, 11:15:50 am
I believe he’s speaking of right after Obi-Wan dies and Luke just starts opening up on the Stormtroopers as the Falcon is prepping for lift-off. It literally takes Obi-Wan’s ghost yelling “Run Luke, Run!” to snap him out of it.

It’s also not quite as extreme as made out to be and spread over what would probably be a couple rounds actually. He may have spent some CP or a Force Point on pegging the door panel (high TN for a small target), but otherwise he only hit 2-3 troopers over the course a couple combat rounds.

Here’s the scene in question;



I like my analysis better...but MAYBE 10 seconds total, so two rounds, and if we're gonna be technical about it a couple dodges in there as well. So either way, he's spending a Force point.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 30, 2020, 12:42:33 pm
He stands in the bay, shoots what, four or five of them?

This doesn't ring a bell.
I believe he’s speaking of right after Obi-Wan dies and Luke just starts opening up on the Stormtroopers as the Falcon is prepping for lift-off. It literally takes Obi-Wan’s ghost yelling “Run Luke, Run!” to snap him out of it.

It’s also not quite as extreme as made out to be and spread over what would probably be a couple rounds actually. He may have spent some CP or a Force Point on pegging the door panel (high TN for a small target), but otherwise he only hit 2-3 troopers over the course a couple combat rounds.

Here’s the scene in question;



Thanks!

Looks like 2-3 rounds of shooting; my impression is Luke hits two and Han one. Doesn't look like it would need 12d6 in Blaster, especially with WEG's Stormtrooper stats. :)
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Chris24601 on October 30, 2020, 02:27:13 pm
Thanks!

Looks like 2-3 rounds of shooting; my impression is Luke hits two and Han one. Doesn't look like it would need 12d6 in Blaster, especially with WEG's Stormtrooper stats. :)
Like I said, maybe some CP to guarantee a hit on the control panel... maybe a Force Point if you counted it as two rounds rather than three since Luke pops two AND the control panel (probably TN 20-25 from distance and size so he’d need slightly above average on his full 6D to nail it).

Based on medium range I’d guess the troopers and Han/Luke had a base TN 15 to hit each other so Han and Luke pinging one per round even with 6D in Blasters (and Han at that point was probably more like 8D+ at that point) is pretty easy while the Stormtroopers would need to roll really well on their 3D (4D-1D Armor penalty) to hit back even without Han or Luke dodging.

So, basically ANH Han/Luke/Leia in a couple of areas (the things with a 3-4D attribute that you put two skill dice into) is about the level of competence WEG Star Wars presumes out of starting PCs.

About the only house rule I’d use to emulate the films is to split CP for extra dice and CP for XP into two separate piles (and maybe make the extra dice pile more or less rechargeable); just because every time I ever actually played getting PCs to spend CP on anything other than a do-or-die soak roll was rare as hen’s teeth and Han/Luke/Leia were probably popping CP like candy at various points where a PC would be banking them to upgrade their skill dice.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: S'mon on October 30, 2020, 03:51:23 pm
So, basically ANH Han/Luke/Leia in a couple of areas (the things with a 3-4D attribute that you put two skill dice into) is about the level of competence WEG Star Wars presumes out of starting PCs.

I agree, with my proviso that IME Force Point use can raise starting PCs above OT-Hero levels, to stuff more like what's seen in the modern films.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Valatar on October 30, 2020, 04:53:06 pm
I have no beef with a sorcerer with a laser sword being flatly superior to Bob on the street.  They have space magic and laser swords, duh.  It gets more prickly when in a game if they're outclassing the other PCs to a big degree, however, and I think Fantasy Flight did an excellent job with it.  The Force is strong, the Jedi talents are good, and lightsabers are absolutely horrifyingly lethal, with easy crits and basically ignoring armor and toughness to do direct health damage.  But a non-Jedi with the same XP to spend will have bought more skill ranks and equivalently good talents, and other weapons are also extremely deadly with a high skill and some mods attached.  It's not hard to wind up with a blaster that's essentially the one from Rogue One with the backpack power supply and proceed to mow down anything in sight.  The fact that FFG's system makes you buy everything with XP is an inherent balance to the system, 'cause the points spent on force powers have to come from somewhere else.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Slipshot762 on October 31, 2020, 08:05:07 am
am i the only one who ignores the WEG "rate of fire" rules for most hand held blasters?
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Chris24601 on October 31, 2020, 08:16:27 am
am i the only one who ignores the WEG "rate of fire" rules for most hand held blasters?
Allow me to answer that with “blasters have rate of fire rules?” ???
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Bren on November 01, 2020, 01:53:11 am
am i the only one who ignores the WEG "rate of fire" rules for most hand held blasters?
Sort of.

I see a ROF listed in the description of various blasters in my 2R&E rules. I started with 2E and apparently I never paid attention to the addition of a ROF line in the Revised and Expanded edition.

The 2E rules don't include a ROF for most blasters, for example see most of the entries in the Equipment section starting on p 154 of the 2E rules (where it is called "Fire Rate"). And there is no ROF column in the price lists. Nor does it appear in the 2R&E Gamemaster Screen.

Here's the really important thing to look at. A limit of only 1 shot per round for a blaster is in conflict with at least one of the the examples of play in the rules (see the example on pp 78-79 of the 2R&E rules). Thannik shoots twice in the same round (and he dodges in between the two shots).

I conclude that the ROF listed is telling you the rate of fire per action.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Slipshot762 on November 03, 2020, 09:34:55 am
yeah the thing that nudged me toward ignoring it was the fact that Han gets off more than one shot at Vader on cloud city before being disarmed, not possible with the rof limitation intact or w/o some type of burst fire or multi-shot as a single attack rule.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on November 04, 2020, 05:11:58 pm
... the FFG system models that scene pretty easy. Just sayin.

In FFG - that would have been two rounds tops. The group of Troopers are just minions in a 5-man group. Luke opens up and blasts, gets enough successes and kills three of them. They return fire with 2-dice (since half their squad got killed) and miss. Han fires cover, gives Luke a booster for the help, and then bails up the ramp. MAYBE he spent a Force Point? Depends on his dice-pool. But he might have been able to pull it off. I'd have to look at basic Stormtrooper stats.

Round 2 - Luke shoots the door and runs. /shrug
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: HappyDaze on November 04, 2020, 05:52:01 pm
... the FFG system models that scene pretty easy. Just sayin.

In FFG - that would have been two rounds tops. The group of Troopers are just minions in a 5-man group. Luke opens up and blasts, gets enough successes and kills three of them. They return fire with 2-dice (since half their squad got killed) and miss. Han fires cover, gives Luke a booster for the help, and then bails up the ramp. MAYBE he spent a Force Point? Depends on his dice-pool. But he might have been able to pull it off. I'd have to look at basic Stormtrooper stats.

Round 2 - Luke shoots the door and runs. /shrug
Killing 3 stormtroopers with a blaster rifle (or carbine) requires 21 damage, or less with Triumphs. That would require Luke to roll 12 uncancelled successes, -5 successes per Triumph. I suppose it might be possible for him to get 2 uncancelled successes and 2 Triumphs, but that's a pretty lucky roll for a beginner.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Snark Knight on November 04, 2020, 07:45:14 pm
D6 for Clone Wars period, FFG for anything with a narrower focus.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: zarion on November 04, 2020, 07:46:17 pm
D6, FFGs goofy dice and D&D level of complexity is a real turn off.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on November 05, 2020, 10:04:06 am
... the FFG system models that scene pretty easy. Just sayin.

In FFG - that would have been two rounds tops. The group of Troopers are just minions in a 5-man group. Luke opens up and blasts, gets enough successes and kills three of them. They return fire with 2-dice (since half their squad got killed) and miss. Han fires cover, gives Luke a booster for the help, and then bails up the ramp. MAYBE he spent a Force Point? Depends on his dice-pool. But he might have been able to pull it off. I'd have to look at basic Stormtrooper stats.

Round 2 - Luke shoots the door and runs. /shrug
Killing 3 stormtroopers with a blaster rifle (or carbine) requires 21 damage, or less with Triumphs. That would require Luke to roll 12 uncancelled successes, -5 successes per Triumph. I suppose it might be possible for him to get 2 uncancelled successes and 2 Triumphs, but that's a pretty lucky roll for a beginner.

Yeah. But I've seen it happen more than once. I'm not disagreeing it's a freaky roll, but it's happened in my games. It's one of the things I actually like about the system - it fits the improbability that the movies actually show.

To the degree it mirrors scenes from a movie, which is a fun exercise but I don't think it's necessarily indicative of anything other than showing what a system can do (like my 300 thread with Savage Worlds) - you could also say that Han gave Luke a booster dice by shouting a warning! The Luke player clearly could/did spend a Force point etc. It's not like rolling 3 natural 20's levels of crazy, it certainly could have been just a very very good roll.

I mean a farmboy unloading with a blaster vs. Stormtroopers less than two-generations out from the Clone Wars (I've *never* liked the idea that Stormtroopers are bumbling idiots - and FFG's Star Wars doesn't treat them like that, thankfully) seems a little lop-sided. The system allows it for dramatic action and makes it work.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on November 05, 2020, 10:11:09 am
D6, FFGs goofy dice and D&D level of complexity is a real turn off.

I do not like complexity of SYSTEM. I do like complexity in outcomes in terms of what you can leverage from the system with minimal mechanical leaps. Oddly, despite others offering this sentiment (which I don't deny - it's a weird thing that some people find FFG Star Wars complex)... I find nothing particularly complex about FFG. Goofy dice? Sure. But the system is ridiculously easy to use, and contrary to what a lot of people say - you don't have to be meta with it at all. But I've defended it pretty extensively on this site in other threads.

It's less complex than D&D 3e. I'd say it's at worst as complex as D6. They just have different methods of abstraction. D6 is definitely more granular.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: HappyDaze on November 05, 2020, 10:51:18 am
... the FFG system models that scene pretty easy. Just sayin.

In FFG - that would have been two rounds tops. The group of Troopers are just minions in a 5-man group. Luke opens up and blasts, gets enough successes and kills three of them. They return fire with 2-dice (since half their squad got killed) and miss. Han fires cover, gives Luke a booster for the help, and then bails up the ramp. MAYBE he spent a Force Point? Depends on his dice-pool. But he might have been able to pull it off. I'd have to look at basic Stormtrooper stats.

Round 2 - Luke shoots the door and runs. /shrug
Killing 3 stormtroopers with a blaster rifle (or carbine) requires 21 damage, or less with Triumphs. That would require Luke to roll 12 uncancelled successes, -5 successes per Triumph. I suppose it might be possible for him to get 2 uncancelled successes and 2 Triumphs, but that's a pretty lucky roll for a beginner.

Yeah. But I've seen it happen more than once. I'm not disagreeing it's a freaky roll, but it's happened in my games. It's one of the things I actually like about the system - it fits the improbability that the movies actually show.

To the degree it mirrors scenes from a movie, which is a fun exercise but I don't think it's necessarily indicative of anything other than showing what a system can do (like my 300 thread with Savage Worlds) - you could also say that Han gave Luke a booster dice by shouting a warning! The Luke player clearly could/did spend a Force point etc. It's not like rolling 3 natural 20's levels of crazy, it certainly could have been just a very very good roll.

I mean a farmboy unloading with a blaster vs. Stormtroopers less than two-generations out from the Clone Wars (I've *never* liked the idea that Stormtroopers are bumbling idiots - and FFG's Star Wars doesn't treat them like that, thankfully) seems a little lop-sided. The system allows it for dramatic action and makes it work.
I actually have to adjust what I said. You can't spend a second Triumph to get a second critical (and thus eliminate another trooper) because you can only generate 1 critical per hit (with additional Advantages and Triumphs just add a bonus to the critical roll, which doesn't matter with minions). So, this means Luke would have needed 7 uncancelled successes and a Triumph to down 3 stormtroopers with one attack. That's well beyond being lucky.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: tenbones on November 05, 2020, 02:14:45 pm
Well it also depends on what you'd stat Luke as. I generally agree it's a crazy roll - for Luke at that stage of his character development.

But you know... we're just trying to fit a peg into a hole of varying shapes/sizes using the tools of choice.

When I run D6 Star Wars, it feels much more gritty and dangerous than FFG. And I *like* that. But when I run FFG Star Wars... it feels more "cinematic" like the movies. I also find it mechanically easier to run and faster paced. I don't really do the meta-mechanics so it's pretty straightforward - Destiny points not withstanding, but even then there are limits.

Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Valatar on November 05, 2020, 03:10:24 pm
"Luke's pissed!" -> Spend Force point to upgrade attack.
"Han used a spare advantage on his attack to give a bonus to the next person." -> Add one boost die.
"Luke isn't going to move or get cover, so he'll spend his maneuver to aim." -> Add another boost die.

With those buffs, taking down three troopers with one triumph and a lot of successes is still really lucky, but not impossibly so.  Plus you could say that Luke at this point already had the Sense power to add Force dice to his attack rolls, given that he proceeded to do exactly that like one day later, so if you add in a Force die that could be another couple successes.
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: Novastar on November 10, 2020, 08:42:26 pm
Run d6 for my normal group, and d20 Saga for my kids (they're experience is D&D and Pathfinder, so it transitions better).
Title: Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
Post by: silencio789 on November 14, 2020, 08:47:11 am
I have played all versions of D6 and grok it. My goto for SW. But I have also played SW SAGA and grokked that as well. It took me a while to get used to the funny dice in FFG but when I did, I grokked that. Now that either means they are 3 excellent rpgs, or the Star Wars theme just caps system.. I have a feeling it's both.. they are all 3 very good rpgs, and the setting is evocative, well supported and deep in our geek brains.

What would I run, d6 Star Wars 2nd edition.. well you know, the WOMP RAT version..