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Author Topic: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG  (Read 2494 times)

Eldritch_Knight

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2020, 03:47:12 am »
If someone were to release an official 3E SW D6 which fixes the power issues with Jedi I would be in seventh heaven. Until then it's still my goto Star Wars even if I don't allow Jedi as player characters. Or if I do it has to be with the right player.

Someone basically did.
 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe-

Chris24601

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2020, 11:16:59 am »
If someone were to release an official 3E SW D6 which fixes the power issues with Jedi I would be in seventh heaven. Until then it's still my goto Star Wars even if I don't allow Jedi as player characters. Or if I do it has to be with the right player.

Someone basically did.
 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe-
Not exactly... WEG Star Wars REU cleaned up some things, but the power disparity between Force-users and non-Force-users is the same as it’s always been in the d6 system.

The fundamental problem is that the game is trying to model two different tiers of dramatic characters using the same system. Luke as the Hero of the Hero’s Journey was written to be on a different tier with a different tier of opponents than his supporting cast.

WEG works fine when everyone is a Jedi (ex. I’ve played in several successful Tales of the Jedi-era campaigns) or everyone is a non-Jedi. But as soon as you have a mixed party things get obviously unbalanced.

Basically I think the OP is asking for something more akin to the SWTOR treatment that gave the non-Force-classes sufficient edges in specific skills and equipment to actually go toe-to-toe with your average Jedi/Sith (not everyone is a Skywalker/Palpatine/Kenobi).

For example, the Bounty Hunter class is an actual Mandalorian, so lightsaber resistant armor, a jet-pack, grapple-line and rockets (AoE being something a lightsaber can’t deflect).

Or the Smuggler, who gets either a portable force-field for instant cover or a stealth generator and a variety of dirty trick devices (including a scattergun and grenades because, again, AoE’s can’t be blocked by a lightsaber).

Basically, in WEG the cost of Force skills is too low relative to their benefits. Frankly, thd proper fix is to price not just the initial 1D, but every pip of improvement  as attributes rather than as skills -or- if you made each Force power a separate skill using control/sense/alter as the attribute.

As it stands right now, you pay either 1 starting attribute die or 10 character points for the first 1D (attribute cost), but then only the number in front of the die CP for each additional pip (skill costs) and can pick a new Force power each time you gain a pip.

This wouldn’t be so bad if each Force power had to be trained as it’s own skill, just like every other skill is. But instead EVERY Force power uses just those three skill ratings for everything so you basically only ever need to improve just these three skills (and get a new power/use for the skill each time you improve it) to completely dominate non-Force-users.

To put some actual numbers down, it costs 10cp for 1D in a Force skill, then 1cp for +1 pip for the next three, then 2 for the next three +1 pips, then 3, 4, etc. So to get a 4D Force skill (which is devastating vs. non-Force characters) takes 28cp starting from nothing (they also get 10 Force powers). By contrast, raising a single normal skill from 3D (a mid-range PC score) to 5D+1 is 26cp (and you need multiple skills for just about anything... blaster+dodge for ranged combat, melee+parry for close combat, starship piliting+gunnery+shields for starship combat).

If instead you required the Force skills to paid for like attributes then getting to 4D would cost 190cp... or enough to raise a single skill from 3D to 11D or FIVE skills to a quite competent 6D.

Similarly, if you made each Force power a separate skill then you’d be able to get comparable results with a single trick to a skill for the same price, but only that one specific trick, not to every power in your ever growing list.

If you want to make it easier to balance Force and non-Force PCs in the same game I recommend one of the two rules above (personally I favor C/S/A costed as attributes with the usual attribute improvement limits and each Force power a separately improved skill). Then if you want a game with full-fledged Jedi (vs. apprentices/neophytes) you give everyone enough CP to buy up their various skills so where the Force-users have various Force powers the non-Force users are extremely competent in non-Force skills (like the 13D Han Solo had in Freighter piloting).

Bren

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2020, 04:19:49 pm »
Not exactly... WEG Star Wars REU cleaned up some things, but the power disparity between Force-users and non-Force-users is the same as it’s always been in the d6 system.

The fundamental problem is that the game is trying to model two different tiers of dramatic characters using the same system. Luke as the Hero of the Hero’s Journey was written to be on a different tier with a different tier of opponents than his supporting cast.
Two problems actually. You mentioned one. The second problem is that some people want to use the same system to play Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters like we see in the prequel films. The system wasn't designed to do the latter, since those prequels didn't even exist.

Quote
WEG works fine when everyone is a Jedi (ex. I’ve played in several successful Tales of the Jedi-era campaigns) or everyone is a non-Jedi. But as soon as you have a mixed party things get obviously unbalanced.
A starting character doesn't really work well as a skilled Jedi. They end up about as powerful as a youngling in the prequel era. The character would need significant beefing up in their Force abilities to even equal the weakest Padawan we see.

Quote
Basically I think the OP is asking for something more akin to the SWTOR treatment that gave the non-Force-classes sufficient edges in specific skills and equipment to actually go toe-to-toe with your average Jedi/Sith (not everyone is a Skywalker/Palpatine/Kenobi).
I was uncertain whether the OP was concerned with the Jedi eventually get too powerful or the Jedi start out far too weak side of the system.

Quote
As it stands right now, you pay either 1 starting attribute die or 10 character points for the first 1D (attribute cost), but then only the number in front of the die CP for each additional pip (skill costs) and can pick a new Force power each time you gain a pip.
Jedi characters are very weak initially. 3D in Control and Sense (the highest starting level) doesn't even let you reliably and safely use a light saber. Paying one starting attribute die for each of the three Force abilities is a significant offset to Force skills. But if played long enough to grow into their abilities in the Force they do tend to end up more powerful. It's not unlike wizards in OD&D.

You're right though that paying 10 character points* to learn to use the Force is a very low cost, which in the RAW is only balanced out by story or other non-character point offsets and by the time needed to train. From a min-max, power-gamer perspective it would make sense to start out with all your attribute dice and learn the Force abilities during play.

Also note that the 10 character point cost is in the 2R&E version. In the earlier 2E version the cost was 20 not 10 character points. The higher cost didn't eliminate the problem, but it helped.

We house ruled significantly higher costs for gaining Force abilities after character creation. The 20 CP cost was only for learning the last of the three Force abilities. Learning the second to the last ability cost twice that (40 CPs) and if you started play with no Force abilities, then gaining the first one cost 80 CPs in play. So to gain Control 1D, Sense 1D, and Alter 1D during play would cost a total of 140 character points.


It's a nitpick, but the cost to increase a skill from 3D to 11D is 156 character points. 190 CPs gets would get you from 3D to 12D with 1 CP left over. And yes, I created a lookup table to calculate such things. It let me figure out how many CPs different PCs had been awarded and had been used for skill and ability increases.
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Lurkndog

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2020, 12:40:51 pm »
Huge d6 fan

Didn’t like the walls of text in FFG. PLUS, the system seemed to cater to gear...

These days we use Cinematic Unisystem. Perfect in handling S/J viz non force users.

Which Cinematic Unisystem rulebook are you using?

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2020, 01:39:26 am »
I'm a big fan of the FFG version, have run and played in several successful campaigns for it.  I feel it's a very cohesive system and manages a tight balance for cinematic-ish gameplay while not going all bonkers on the power levels.

tenbones

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2020, 10:11:07 pm »
I'd say the FFG system handles Force users better in terms of keeping non-Force users and Force users on the same playing field. The top-end will see Force users being *crazy* powerful. But the system for non-Force users can make them pretty crazy powerful too - with the assumption they are purchasing and upgrading their gear and buying the Talents that will exploit that gear.

Ranged/melee characters with the right talents are *extremely* lethal. And if you manage your game contextually to where there is a good reason for Jedi/Sith to consort with non-force users, it can work very well with much less overhead than D6 in my experience.

Support characters are already so specialized they will usually outclass Force users (though not always) in those arenas, or at minimum will be very competitive.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 10:15:48 pm by tenbones »

Marchand

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2020, 01:35:44 am »
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.

The first example I had in mind was Han pulling his blaster on Vader, and all Vader has to do is wave his hand. OK, but then that's Darth frickin' Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi to have ever existed turned Sith Lord, i.e. someone who made a Faustian bargain for even more power.

We don't see much by way of run-of-the-mill Jedi in action, but we do know they can get taken out by clone troopers, admittedly in a surprise attack and with massive weight of numbers. Plus there are Jedi casualties fighting drones at the end of Attack of the Clones.

So, it's at least arguable that lower level Force users should be competitive with mundanes. Then the likes of Mandalorians can compete even with mid-level. Once you get up to Skywalker/Palpatine level, forget it.

I'd probably try and do it in Mythras using selected mysticism for lightside and even more selected sorcery for darkside. There is a samizdat Star Wars book floating around on the web for RQ6, which is 99% the same as Mythras.
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HappyDaze

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2020, 05:37:54 am »
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.

The first example I had in mind was Han pulling his blaster on Vader, and all Vader has to do is wave his hand. OK, but then that's Darth frickin' Vader, one of the most powerful Jedi to have ever existed turned Sith Lord, i.e. someone who made a Faustian bargain for even more power.

We don't see much by way of run-of-the-mill Jedi in action, but we do know they can get taken out by clone troopers, admittedly in a surprise attack and with massive weight of numbers. Plus there are Jedi casualties fighting drones at the end of Attack of the Clones.

So, it's at least arguable that lower level Force users should be competitive with mundanes. Then the likes of Mandalorians can compete even with mid-level. Once you get up to Skywalker/Palpatine level, forget it.

I'd probably try and do it in Mythras using selected mysticism for lightside and even more selected sorcery for darkside. There is a samizdat Star Wars book floating around on the web for RQ6, which is 99% the same as Mythras.
As an extreme example, General Grievous was able to defeat many Jedi in lightsaber duels using mundane skill and cybernetic enhancement.

Bren

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2020, 02:26:53 pm »
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.
Well canonically there are at least 4 or 5 power levels among Jedi Force users.

1. Younglings
2. Force users who failed to be selected as a Padawan or apprentice. Presumably some Younglings are more powerful than those who are not selected by a Jedi to be their apprentice. (This may no longer be canon. The Agricultural Corps or AgriCorps still seems to be canon. Not so clear if Younglings can fail to be selected as Padawans, though it seems reasonable that becoming an apprentice is more than just a participation medal.)
3. Padawans
4. Jedi Knights
5. Jedi Masters

And there seems to be some significant overlap in power, e.g., as an apprentice, Anakin seems to quickly become as powerful as some Jedi Knights.
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Marchand

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2020, 08:49:49 pm »
Never heard of this AgriCorps - is that where they put failed younglings?

The whole thing about scooping them up so young is rife with really dark possibilities. Apart from ripping these kids away from their families, what is the attitude to Force sensitives who fail or are unwilling to become Jedi..?

I can buy Anakin's rapid escalation in power as he is clearly not a run-of-the-mill Jedi.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2020, 09:11:50 pm »
On Force users vs NFU balance, I was going to post that there is no balance in the source material defined as the first 6 films, but actually I'm not so sure.
Well canonically there are at least 4 or 5 power levels among Jedi Force users.

1. Younglings
2. Force users who failed to be selected as a Padawan or apprentice. Presumably some Younglings are more powerful than those who are not selected by a Jedi to be their apprentice. (This may no longer be canon. The Agricultural Corps or AgriCorps still seems to be canon. Not so clear if Younglings can fail to be selected as Padawans, though it seems reasonable that becoming an apprentice is more than just a participation medal.)
3. Padawans
4. Jedi Knights
5. Jedi Masters

And there seems to be some significant overlap in power, e.g., as an apprentice, Anakin seems to quickly become as powerful as some Jedi Knights.

I don't think those categories are tied to actual power level, though.  As you say, Anakin had a "knack" for the force (so did Luke) that put his innate ability above the average, but he lacked training.
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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2020, 09:14:22 pm »
Never heard of this AgriCorps - is that where they put failed younglings?

The whole thing about scooping them up so young is rife with really dark possibilities. Apart from ripping these kids away from their families, what is the attitude to Force sensitives who fail or are unwilling to become Jedi..?


That's a good question. One of the central conflicts in the prequels was the "rules" of the Jedi versus what one Jedi's desires. But it opened up a huge can of worms about what those rules *specifically* are, and what the penalties for breaking them are.

Are children forcibly removed from their families if they are potential Jedi? Are they given a choice? Do you get a tax writeoff if your kid is serving in the Jedi order?
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Bren

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2020, 10:22:19 pm »
I don't think those categories are tied to actual power level, though.  As you say, Anakin had a "knack" for the force (so did Luke) that put his innate ability above the average, but he lacked training.
I assume there is some minimum threshold of power to advance. Clearly it is not the only criterion (some kind of test of worthiness seems included), but it makes sense that power is a criterion. It seems to be implied in a number of places that a Jedi Master is able to handle difficult situations - which would support some minimum level of power to be considered to become a master. Additionally having minimum levels of power to advance makes sense from a game standpoint both for player advancement and also because the WEG rules require a teacher to exceed the skill of the student to give the student a training benefit.

Are children forcibly removed from their families if they are potential Jedi? Are they given a choice? Do you get a tax writeoff if your kid is serving in the Jedi order?
Strongly encouraged I would think. Very strongly encouraged if they are strong in the Force. Affect Mind might be used, which would be a forced removal of sorts. (Pun intended.) I would think prestige might be attached to the family of a Jedi child, though monetary inducements don't seem unreasonable.
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Marchand

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2020, 01:41:09 am »
As anyone with kids knows, toddlers are essentially sociopathic, so maybe a force-sensitive kid pretty quickly becomes an orphan anyway!

Less egregiously, if you hit the one in ten billion or whatever jackpot of having a Force-sensitive child, you might be culturally conditioned to regard it as a great honour to hand it over, plus maybe slightly relieved. And you might get major benefits.

But then don't the prequels suggest Force sensitivity is at least partly hereditary? That would suggest the Jedi Order is hereditary, but then Jedi aren't supposed to form personal attachments like families. Maybe they clone existing Jedi. Or existing Jedi get it on and then the resulting kids get handed over.

Any way you cut it is quite dark and unappealing. Am I over-thinking this? Definitely.

Given it's pretty clear from the films that the Republic's writ doesn't run across the whole Galaxy, there must be force users who don't get picked up by the Jedi. It's also indicated that the Jedi Order don't like accepting people for training past a certain very young age. What happens to the ones who slip through the net for a while? A choice between life imprisonment/exile or the wrong end of a lightsaber?

It's kind of reminiscent of harvesting psykers in 40K.

No wonder people go Sith...

« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 01:42:57 am by Marchand »
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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2020, 02:15:50 am »
for star wars :
tossing out control sense alter and just making force powers be skills under perception 
changing force points to render max normal roll instead of doubling die codes.
giving jedi a force point cap equal to total force skill dice and allowing them to regen at a rate of 1 per die of perception between encounters 
requiring the spending of a force point to activate a power
making non-force users use melee combat for lightsabers
folding lightsaber combat power into jedi exclusive lightsaber skill (uses force points for parrying blaster shots)
dumping bonus to hit and to damage from lightsaber combat power
use of dueling blades chart for melee combat

doing all these things the disparity between jedi and normies evaporates, and the duels look more like obi-wan v anakin in revenge of the sith instead of one-round one-hit bushido blade duels that materialize in the default rules