TheRPGSite

 I swear this is real. You can look it up! The same storygaming SJWs who claim that the OSR is bad game design and DnD is banal are cheering over "Fat Self Care", the game. It's got everything they would like to turn the ttrpg hobby into!

Well thankfully it get mere 3000 $ + from 181 backers.

Aesthetics are the best riposte.

It's still $3.000. Money for nothing and chicken wings for free.

I'm convinced that at a certain point in time GMSkarka had the sincere intention of delivering a finished Far West product.

But how deluded would I have to be to think that a concept like 'Couchpotato : the Self-Indulging' will ever get beyond the Collect-Funds phase? Never mind shipping a physical item to backers...

I would bet the numbers would be far more impressive if they graded it by weight of backers rather than the pittance they donated.... just sayin!

Quote from: shuddemell on March 09, 2021, 09:51:04 AM
I would bet the numbers would be far more impressive if they graded it by weight of backers rather than the pittance they donated.... just sayin!

Minimum backer amount = $ equal to backer's body weight.

If you say "look it up", I'd think one would want to provide a link. As for what SJWs want, as WWotW noted, it's a tiny project of a solo journaling RPG (one of those weird niche genres) that raised $3580 with 181 backers.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/avenmcconnaughey/fat-self-care-volume-1

By comparison - Coyote and Crow is billed as a "science fantasy role-playing game set in an uncolonized future", set in an alternate future of the Americas where European colonization never occurred. It raised $421,367 from 6197 backers at last count.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow

The former is a tiny niche within a niche - the latter at least shows some broader interest.

Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2021, 02:53:29 PM
If you say "look it up", I'd think one would want to provide a link. As for what SJWs want, as WWotW noted, it's a tiny project of a solo journaling RPG (one of those weird niche genres) that raised $3580 with 181 backers.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/avenmcconnaughey/fat-self-care-volume-1

By comparison - Coyote and Crow is billed as a "science fantasy role-playing game set in an uncolonized future", set in an alternate future of the Americas where European colonization never occurred. It raised $421,367 from 6197 backers at last count.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow

The former is a tiny niche within a niche - the latter at least shows some broader interest.

Nits become lice.

QuoteBy comparison - Coyote and Crow is billed as a "science fantasy role-playing game set in an uncolonized future", set in an alternate future of the Americas where European colonization never occurred. It raised $421,367 from 6197 backers at last count.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow

The former is a tiny niche within a niche - the latter at least shows some broader interest.

I must say though it will probably be overwokified I'm quite interested in C&C setting, I mean this is on paper interesting idea.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 09, 2021, 07:01:41 PM

Quote from: jhkimBy comparison - Coyote and Crow is billed as a "science fantasy role-playing game set in an uncolonized future", set in an alternate future of the Americas where European colonization never occurred. It raised $421,367 from 6197 backers at last count.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow

The former is a tiny niche within a niche - the latter at least shows some broader interest.

I must say though it will probably be overwokified I'm quite interested in C&C setting, I mean this is on paper interesting idea.

Yeah. I don't know the authors' work, so I'm not inclined to try it out yet. (I rarely go for any Kickstarter.) But the idea is interesting, I agree.

I'm intrigued to see the city of Cahokia being featured. I had been thinking about a swashbuckling game set in medieval Cahokia, on the idea that swashbuckling is really about the genre and society rather than about steel.

Hahahahahahahahahahah








Hahahahahhahaahaha

Backed! I can't wait to play Rowan.

GM: Me.
Me: I shoehorn her into a combat wheel chair and roll her off a cliff.

Reading the Kickstarter has provided me with a new motivation to lose those last 20 pounds.

I started reading the Kickstarter, but then got sidetracked thinking of jokes about "stretch goals". (Your waistband, touching your toes etc.)

Agree the non-colonised America setting sounds interesting in principle. Tricky to pull off the backstory in a plausible way. Presumably Europe has to get quasi-nuked. Then what? Ming vs Ottomans along the Mississippi frontier?

And now we see the reason behind the combat wheelchair shit; it was simply laying the groundwork for the walmart style combat mobility scooters that liches will cluster at dungeon entrances. How could we have been so blind?

I appreciate that it's hard to resist making fun of the girl who thinks that going out to breakfast is a good way to feel better about being fat. I feel pretty bad for her, she seems to feel really worthless. I hope she gets her life together.

I got dragged into "playtesting" one of these "journal games" by a friend of a friend. I tried to write an interesting story and he called me to up to yell at me for doing it wrong. They tend to mean a lot to the person who wrote them but not as much to anyone else. It feels like watching someone else's therapy.

The Cahokia game looks like it might be a neat setting, although I'm not keen on a new system at this point.

QuoteAgree the non-colonised America setting sounds interesting in principle. Tricky to pull off the backstory in a plausible way. Presumably Europe has to get quasi-nuked. Then what? Ming vs Ottomans along the Mississippi frontier?

As far as I understand - world was generally nuked into Long Night by asteroid in this version, somewhere around 1000 BC. That's quite plausible to nuke most Eurasian powers.
Bit like this setting I've once read about when Black Plague killed 99% of Europeans, and Asian powers recolonized Europe.

Quote from: TobiasP on March 10, 2021, 03:09:56 AM
I got dragged into "playtesting" one of these "journal games" by a friend of a friend. I tried to write an interesting story and he called me to up to yell at me for doing it wrong. They tend to mean a lot to the person who wrote them but not as much to anyone else. It feels like watching someone else's therapy.

I have playtested and seen several of these over the years. The oldest think have is from 6 or 7 years ago.
One of the oldest I have still archived was one from 8 years ago where you are a warrior training to advance through a temple. Each day you had to do X amount of exercises which was the games damage and such. Was a pretty simple yet elegant way to exercise and make a little adventure of it.

Another I cannot find yet for the date had you trapped in your house and having to collect things and make notes each day. Thats about all can recall of it. And another where you are a space traveller journalling each day of the trip. And a few others. There was also, and possibly still running a sort of combo of journal and teleconference LARP where the players were all at remote sites doing stuff each day.

"Fat Self Care" - so it's about diet & exercise?

Quote from: S'mon on March 10, 2021, 07:42:53 AM
"Fat Self Care" - so it's about diet & exercise?

If only it was!

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 03:35:46 AMAs far as I understand - world was generally nuked into Long Night by asteroid in this version, somewhere around 1000 BC. That's quite plausible to nuke most Eurasian powers.
Bit like this setting I've once read about when Black Plague killed 99% of Europeans, and Asian powers recolonized Europe.

Seems a bit extreme when would have been easier to just have the black plague spread further than it did and cause more widespread collapse.

Many a decade ago in I believe one of DCs sci-fi/horror comic segments Steve Ditko did one where some scientists sick of nuclear war go back in time and abduct Albert Einstein. Rather than kill him they go further back in time and drop him off with some pre-colonial natives in the americas. They return home only to discover that now the americas were never colonized because Big Chief Mushroomcloud nuked the europeans enough they have more or less stayed away since.

Quote from: S'mon on March 10, 2021, 07:42:53 AM
"Fat Self Care" - so it's about diet & exercise?

Healthy at any size, you bigot.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 03:35:46 AMBit like this setting I've once read about when Black Plague killed 99% of Europeans, and Asian powers recolonized Europe.

You might be thinking of the novel Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson? Europe gets wiped out by the plague, Islam conquers Europe, America is never colonized, and the world is divided between the Chinese, Indian, Islam, and Native American superpowers. 

It's one of the most boring interesting books I have ever read, or perhaps the most boring interesting book. It's hard to explain. It's not very exciting, but I couldn't stop reading it.

After reading, I wondered what 181 current backers at 300 pounds weight (the KS "protagonist") would equal.

https://www.bluebulbprojects.com/measureofthings/results.php?comp=weight&unit=lbs&amt=54300&sort=pr&p=6

It's about two times as heavy as an Anchor of a Cruise Ship
It's about one-third as heavy as The Space Shuttle
It's about four times as heavy as a Tyrannosaurus rex
It's about one-fourth as heavy as a Blue Whale
It's about one-fifth as heavy as a House
It's about forty times as heavy as a Cow
It's about 55 times as heavy as a Grand Piano
It's about 100 times as heavy as a Pig
It's about 350 times as heavy as a Beer Keg
It's about 550 times as heavy as a Toilet

Now I kind of want them to succeed to at least the "Blue Whale" level...

I have thought long and hard how to react to this topic. Upon my ruminations i have found the perfect answer(for me, not for everybody). Its in the form of an attached picture. The picture shows the face of a celbrity on the body of another celebrity. Yes, this is Nicolas Cages face on the body of Whoopi Goldberg in a tub of milk. Its just how i feel regarding this subject.

Quote from: jhkim on March 09, 2021, 02:53:29 PM
If you say "look it up", I'd think one would want to provide a link. As for what SJWs want, as WWotW noted, it's a tiny project of a solo journaling RPG (one of those weird niche genres) that raised $3580 with 181 backers.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/avenmcconnaughey/fat-self-care-volume-1

By comparison - Coyote and Crow is billed as a "science fantasy role-playing game set in an uncolonized future", set in an alternate future of the Americas where European colonization never occurred. It raised $421,367 from 6197 backers at last count.

cf. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow

The former is a tiny niche within a niche - the latter at least shows some broader interest.

So, a game of racialist fantasy wish fulfillment imagining a nonsensical alternate history that would never ever have happened, in order to try to argue that "Native Americans were right on the verge of jumping right from mass blood-sacrifice while failing to invent the wheel ALL the way over to Social-Justice Super-tech Utopia, if it hadn't been for that EVIL WHITE MAN!" is what you're presenting as the "Common sense alternative" to Fat Self Care to show that the SJWs aren't just Ideological Terrorists out to transform the hobby into a pop culture version of forced-indoctrination-camps?

Because I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.

Quote from: Aglondir on March 09, 2021, 11:18:52 PM
Reading the Kickstarter has provided me with a new motivation to lose those last 20 pounds.

Then good has come of this after all!

Quote from: TobiasP on March 10, 2021, 03:09:56 AM
I appreciate that it's hard to resist making fun of the girl who thinks that going out to breakfast is a good way to feel better about being fat. I feel pretty bad for her, she seems to feel really worthless. I hope she gets her life together.

The game designer's pronouns are ey/em/eir, BIGOT!
(again, totally serious, I cannot make this up, those are really the pronouns)

Quote
The Cahokia game looks like it might be a neat setting, although I'm not keen on a new system at this point.

To me it looks like Wakanda-for-Indians. A fantasy of a society that not only does not exist, but never existed and NEVER WOULD have existed even if you killed every single white man before 1492. That you need some kind of magic or super-science to explain, because otherwise it makes no sense, and usually still makes no sense even with it.

All to live out the racist fantasy that "if all the white men had just died, we'd be in a much better world".

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 03:35:46 AM

As far as I understand - world was generally nuked into Long Night by asteroid in this version, somewhere around 1000 BC. That's quite plausible to nuke most Eurasian powers.
Bit like this setting I've once read about when Black Plague killed 99% of Europeans, and Asian powers recolonized Europe.

You could have santa claus kill every last white person, and it wouldn't have made America sufficiently rich in certain resources required to produce a sufficiently advanced civilization, nor the kind of groundwork of concepts required to create a society that has concepts of the Rights of Man, the Scientific Method, or the Universality of God. You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

It is a complete fantasy based out of a wish fulfillment that utopia would have happened were it not for the evil white men, when in fact it was Western Civilization that has, in all of human history, gotten as close to Utopia as anyone has so far (though admittedly still very very far from it). It's resentment pseudo-history.

The most likely outcome of no Columbian Exchange would have been that in 2021, tribes would still roam the great plains killing buffalo and each other, while central America would be at some stage of its seemingly eternal cycle of building up monument-building empires based on human sacrifice and then having those empires collapse from resource-scarcity back into primitive tribes based on human sacrifice.  Maybe the Inca would have fared a bit better, but it's not too likely.

Quote from: Marchand on March 10, 2021, 02:44:06 AMAgree the non-colonised America setting sounds interesting in principle. Tricky to pull off the backstory in a plausible way. Presumably Europe has to get quasi-nuked. Then what? Ming vs Ottomans along the Mississippi frontier?

It would be easy to explain if you could concoct some event that exposes native Americans to Eurasian diseases a few hundred years before Columbus. That way their population would have recovered enough to be able to fight back more effectively. Vikings could work but that's a too cliché. The Chinese treasure fleet would also work but that's a bit too late in the timeline.

A setup like this would let you create a New York existing in a situation similar to Hong Kong which could be a cool setting location.

Of course, the authors of the kickstarter used the tired "climate change" disaster which conveniently killed Europe while also, at least judging from the cover, making all native American's flamboyantly gay.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 07:24:15 PMAll to live out the racist fantasy that "if all the white men had just died, we'd be in a much better world".

It's also a fantasy that is based on the idea that preventing immigration is a good thing.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 10, 2021, 08:38:13 PM

Quote from: Marchand on March 10, 2021, 02:44:06 AMAgree the non-colonised America setting sounds interesting in principle. Tricky to pull off the backstory in a plausible way. Presumably Europe has to get quasi-nuked. Then what? Ming vs Ottomans along the Mississippi frontier?

It would be easy to explain if you could concoct some event that exposes native Americans to Eurasian diseases a few hundred years before Columbus. That way their population would have recovered enough to be able to fight back more effectively. Vikings could work but that's a too cliché. The Chinese treasure fleet would also work but that's a bit too late in the timeline.

A setup like this would let you create a New York existing in a situation similar to Hong Kong which could be a cool setting location.

Of course, the authors of the kickstarter used the tired "climate change" disaster which conveniently killed Europe while also, at least judging from the cover, making all native American's flamboyantly gay.

I think you could do it with earlier vikings.  Get germanic or norse ships over to North America earlier and have them bring horses and iron working and you've probably got a chance for that to trickle out across the Americas. European crops such as wheat would probably help as well.

It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 10, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
It would be easy to explain if you could concoct some event that exposes native Americans to Eurasian diseases a few hundred years before Columbus. That way their population would have recovered enough to be able to fight back more effectively. Vikings could work but that's a too cliché.

Not necessarily. Vikings with smallpox. I was thinking that the other day.

QuoteSo, a game of racialist fantasy wish fulfillment imagining a nonsensical alternate history that would never ever have happened, in order to try to argue that "Native Americans were right on the verge of jumping right from mass blood-sacrifice while failing to invent the wheel ALL the way over to Social-Justice Super-tech Utopia, if it hadn't been for that EVIL WHITE MAN!" is what you're presenting as the "Common sense alternative" to Fat Self Care to show that the SJWs aren't just Ideological Terrorists out to transform the hobby into a pop culture version of forced-indoctrination-camps?

Yup. As traditionalist and volkist I'm great supporter of ethnic fantasies even if they have jackshit to do with real possibilities of the world.
I could not care less about real history in my RPG unless I play strictly very historical RPG. Otherwise I'm quite fine with Welsh suddenly being race of Nietzschean ubermensch in Howard's Hyborean Era, despite Welsh being British hillbillies really, I have no problem with not-really African African empires in 7th Sea, and so on, and so on. I mean I could even buy Wakanda if it was not size of fucking Andorra.
Now of course this game can still be very woke - in sexual matters, and in matters of virtue signalling against whites, but this is not given yet.

Also your reducing all North and South Americas to basically Horror!Aztecs is honestly just as bad as their signalling.

QuoteTo me it looks like Wakanda-for-Indians. A fantasy of a society that not only does not exist, but never existed and NEVER WOULD have existed even if you killed every single white man before 1492. That you need some kind of magic or super-science to explain, because otherwise it makes no sense, and usually still makes no sense even with it.

All to live out the racist fantasy that "if all the white men had just died, we'd be in a much better world".

Well indeed there is magical meteor that brought second Ice Age on world and gave people psionic powers. Which I mean - let's say they acknowledge in 1500s American natives were nowhere near possibility of repelling Europeans on their own power (and I mean magical meteorite is quite peaceful solution - if I was some Lakota Jingoist I'd probably simply reverse plague options - making American strains of infections much more lethal for Europeans - and letting them to move to Europe with American captives).

As I quite like reading - have no chance playing scenarios - where Poland though magical means manages to estabilish Empire and crush Russia and Germany either before partitions or WW2, I honestly understand and support Muskogen desires to at least imagine Muskogen Empire Fairyland. I also support water-elemental based Polynesian Empire taking over all oceans of the Earth.
That's precisely what I have my weird-fiction-fantasy-sci-fi-cyberpunk-hybrids to do wacky shit like that. Including imperialist fantasies for members of disenfranchised nations. :3

QuoteYou could have santa claus kill every last white person, and it wouldn't have made America sufficiently rich in certain resources required to produce a sufficiently advanced civilization, nor the kind of groundwork of concepts required to create a society that has concepts of the Rights of Man, the Scientific Method, or the Universality of God. You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

That's really weird kind of essentialism. Of course Americans were once many centuries behind due to colonizing fresh virgin continent, rather than use possible synergy of merging of farmers, pastoralist and hunter groups that umphed overall civilisational power of Eurasians. There you started only with hunters and fresh continent. And it took many thousand years for Eurasians to really get farming after Out of Africa, so reaching basically Neolithic period is what should be expected from Americans even if they were genetically superior and smartest of all mankind.
But well we were also rabid barbarians like 8000 years ago and nobody cares.

About those concepts you suddenly capitalise so much - I do not consider human rights to really be vital, they were definitely not in place in times we started to conquer shit out of Native Americans, neither was Scientific Method. Only Universality of God is less material-development depended and well it happened even among Aztec royalty - vide Nezahualcoyotl, and Aztec priesthood officially proclaimed pantheism - those things are certainly possible to made, of course as history learns - accepting Universality of God, rarely leads to Universality of Men.

Now of course it depends of timeline. If game takes part in 2020 and America is suddenly in cyberpunk period I press X.
But it can be like year 3500 and suddenly it's bit more plausible at least with magical psionic meteorite ;) We reached Scientific Method proper what... 200 years ago, maybe 250. A very short time period in our overall history.

I see one vividly problematic aspect for America development compared to Eurasian ones - lack of horse and I see no other local animal that could easily replace them. That's much more problematic than lack of wheel, which in Eurasia was rather curiosity before we went all cavalry and riders. Without horse it would be wheelbarrows for Americans - much less attractive deal.

QuoteIt is a complete fantasy based out of a wish fulfillment that utopia would have happened were it not for the evil white men, when in fact it was Western Civilization that has, in all of human history, gotten as close to Utopia as anyone has so far (though admittedly still very very far from it). It's resentment pseudo-history.

Maybe. Or maybe it's just power fantasy of people fucked over by white men, who care more about their national traditions that about universality of Anglosaxon civilisation - which I of course despise as good continental Catholic :P

QuoteThe most likely outcome of no Columbian Exchange would have been that in 2021, tribes would still roam the great plains killing buffalo and each other, while central America would be at some stage of its seemingly eternal cycle of building up monument-building empires based on human sacrifice and then having those empires collapse from resource-scarcity back into primitive tribes based on human sacrifice.  Maybe the Inca would have fared a bit better, but it's not too likely.

Maybe, maybe not. There is definitely no demand to use mass human sacrifice to build empire even in America. That's why everybody hated Aztecs so much. Occassional human sacrifices were done in Eurasia in Neolithic period, and well way way later and it somehow did not stopped us.

QuoteIt's also a fantasy that is based on the idea that preventing immigration is a good thing.

:3

QuoteIt would be easy to explain if you could concoct some event that exposes native Americans to Eurasian diseases a few hundred years before Columbus. That way their population would have recovered enough to be able to fight back more effectively. Vikings could work but that's a too cliché. The Chinese treasure fleet would also work but that's a bit too late in the timeline.

Even without 50-75% flu extermination I doubt they would be able to stop Spanish and English for long TBH. But it could change societal structure of modern Latin America into much more native-based, with high robust population relations could be estabilished on feudal level, and Christened chieftains and kings could become important vassal, as America would not be sponge for Europeans that much.

QuoteOf course, the authors of the kickstarter used the tired "climate change" disaster which conveniently killed Europe while also, at least judging from the cover, making all native American's flamboyantly gay.

Did they wrote it killed Europe - I missed that. Thought it just dropped world into post-apo situation so extra-American forces lost their advantages enough to not be a problem.

QuoteIt would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

Indeed. So 700 years given in Coyote is really really meh, I mean if magical meteorite throw Earth in Ice Age somewhere near 1000 AD, it would fuck up most of way more advanced civilisations beyond fast recovery.

Quote from: TJS on March 10, 2021, 08:47:43 PM....I think you could do it with earlier vikings.  Get germanic or norse ships over to North America earlier and have them bring horses and iron working and you've probably got a chance for that to trickle out across the Americas. European crops such as wheat would probably help as well.

It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

It would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they'd get steamrolled regardless of their population. The Spaniards steamrolled the central Native Americans even though they were greatly outnumbered. In fact, the British steamrolled much of the world despite being greatly outnumbered. Crossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps' nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

The main issue is that isolated populations evolve more slowly than those that have immediate access to trade routes. Being overrun and enslaved is the primary means by which genes have spread historically due to forced interbreeding. The latest version of the gene that causes increased neural density comes from Mesopotamia and appeared between 5 and 6 thousand years ago and has been quickly spreading outward since then.

Quote from: "Wicked Woodpecker of West"....Yup. As traditionalist and volkist I'm great supporter of ethnic fantasies even if they have jackshit to do with real possibilities of the world....

If that is what it were, then certainly. But more likely it is just white liberals making a game about their "people of color" pets in order to proselytize their ideology.

QuoteCoyote and Crow is a tabletop role playing game set in an alternate future of the Americas where colonization never occurred. Instead, advanced civilizations arose over hundreds of years after a massive climate disaster changed the history of the planet. You'll play as adventurers starting out in the city of Cahokia, a bustling, diverse metropolis along the Mississippi River. It's a world of science and spirituality where the future of technology and legends of the past will collide.

The phrase "science and spirituality" makes me think of the junk science and the "spiritual but not religious" nonsense of the radical leftists. I've sat in on these sorts of courses at the university, so I know it's just political propaganda.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 09:26:10 PM
I also support water-elemental based Polynesian Empire taking over all oceans of the Earth.

As someone who lives near Polynesia, thats a lot of blood and human sacrifice.

QuoteIf that is what it were, then certainly. But more likely it is just white liberals making a game about their "people of color" pets in order to proselytize their ideology.

AFAIK all writers are Native Americans. I mean many members of tribes are white liberals anyway thanks to drop rules and so, but still. It is made by people being at least formally tribe members.

QuoteThe phrase "science and spirituality" makes me think of the junk science and the "spiritual but not religious" nonsense of the radical leftists. I've sat in on these sorts of courses at the university, so I know it's just political propaganda.

There is certainly risk of it.

QuoteAs someone who lives near Polynesia, thats a lot of blood and human sacrifice.

Cool I for once want RPG when human sacrifice is noble, proper and way thing ought to be by divine decreet ;)

Quotet would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they'd get steamrolled regardless of their population.

Graece-Roman people had jackshit to do with Germanic neurodensity - in fact Germanic and Italic folk came to be from quite simmilar mixtures of three basic population - Western Hunter Gatherers, Anatolian Farmers and Ancestral North Eurasians. The events that pushed boreal neurodensity higher are ancient and it took millenia and lot of luck to get this into civilisation level.
Also Native Americans came from mixture of Ancestral North Eurasians (which were population that basically created and dominated Indoeuroepans as shown by vast R1a/R1b dominance everywhere IE came, and R1 came from ANE) with various East Asian folk. Neither of those people are dumb. But even being smart you need a lot.

Neurodensity can be used against Africans, not Americans.

QuoteCrossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps' nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

Vietnam people build serious early civilisation when our ancestors were forest hillbillies.
As I said above - this has jackshit to do with European blood - level of which among modern Vietnamese is negligible.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 10:16:48 PM

QuoteAs someone who lives near Polynesia, thats a lot of blood and human sacrifice.

Cool I for once want RPG when human sacrifice is noble, proper and way thing ought to be by divine decreet ;)

Ah, noble!  Good one.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 06:44:52 PM
So, a game of racialist fantasy wish fulfillment imagining a nonsensical alternate history that would never ever have happened, in order to try to argue that "Native Americans were right on the verge of jumping right from mass blood-sacrifice while failing to invent the wheel ALL the way over to Social-Justice Super-tech Utopia, if it hadn't been for that EVIL WHITE MAN!" is what you're presenting as the "Common sense alternative" to Fat Self Care to show that the SJWs aren't just Ideological Terrorists out to transform the hobby into a pop culture version of forced-indoctrination-camps?

Because I don't think you're making the point you think you're making.

It is just a cash-in follow the trend reskin (redskin?) of Black Panther and Wakanda. Which itself have become another hatemonger platform for fake-Marvel.
Captain Canuck has a similar theme with Canada becoming practically a world government. Except not offensive. Same for Stand Still, Stay Silent where about the last remnants of civilization are in Iceland and parts of Scandinavia.

It is not a new idea. It has just been hijacked by these sociopaths as an easy platform to spread their venom now.

I forget the RPG but way back there was one where the "new world" being colonized turned out to be europe and the colonists were by implication then native americans. Though about the only way you could tell was by the map. That is not a new idea either and can be a fun little flip to play around with.

But as with everything. These cultists can and will twist it into their agenda.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 07:30:05 PMYou aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

And no horses.

Which is something oft overlooked as people assume horses were in the Americas before Europeans came along. Sure a few civilizaions had pack animals of various sorts. But few, if any, had riding animals. Which vastly limits the spread of knowledge to just foot travel essentially.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on March 10, 2021, 10:05:53 PM

Quote from: TJS on March 10, 2021, 08:47:43 PM....I think you could do it with earlier vikings.  Get germanic or norse ships over to North America earlier and have them bring horses and iron working and you've probably got a chance for that to trickle out across the Americas. European crops such as wheat would probably help as well.

It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

It would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they'd get steamrolled regardless of their population. The Spaniards steamrolled the central Native Americans even though they were greatly outnumbered. In fact, the British steamrolled much of the world despite being greatly outnumbered. Crossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps' nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

The main issue is that isolated populations evolve more slowly than those that have immediate access to trade routes. Being overrun and enslaved is the primary means by which genes have spread historically due to forced interbreeding. The latest version of the gene that causes increased neural density comes from Mesopotamia and appeared between 5 and 6 thousand years ago and has been quickly spreading outward since then.

Quote from: "Wicked Woodpecker of West"....Yup. As traditionalist and volkist I'm great supporter of ethnic fantasies even if they have jackshit to do with real possibilities of the world....

If that is what it were, then certainly. But more likely it is just white liberals making a game about their "people of color" pets in order to proselytize their ideology.

QuoteCoyote and Crow is a tabletop role playing game set in an alternate future of the Americas where colonization never occurred. Instead, advanced civilizations arose over hundreds of years after a massive climate disaster changed the history of the planet. You'll play as adventurers starting out in the city of Cahokia, a bustling, diverse metropolis along the Mississippi River. It's a world of science and spirituality where the future of technology and legends of the past will collide.

The phrase "science and spirituality" makes me think of the junk science and the "spiritual but not religious" nonsense of the radical leftists. I've sat in on these sorts of courses at the university, so I know it's just political propaganda.

Neural density?  WTF?

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 12:01:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 07:30:05 PMYou aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

And no horses.

Which is something oft overlooked as people assume horses were in the Americas before Europeans came along. Sure a few civilizaions had pack animals of various sorts. But few, if any, had riding animals. Which vastly limits the spread of knowledge to just foot travel essentially.

What..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn't a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don't even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.

Quote from: Brad on March 11, 2021, 06:59:27 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 12:01:42 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 07:30:05 PMYou aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

And no horses.

Which is something oft overlooked as people assume horses were in the Americas before Europeans came along. Sure a few civilizaions had pack animals of various sorts. But few, if any, had riding animals. Which vastly limits the spread of knowledge to just foot travel essentially.

What..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn't a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don't even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.

Yup about 15 give or take a few months. Montenegro got independence in 2006.

Quote from: TJS on March 11, 2021, 12:12:47 AM

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on March 10, 2021, 10:05:53 PM
...Discredited Racist Bullshit Theories...

Neural density?  WTF?

I'm about 99% convinced that Cloyer is a Leftist Troll cosplaying what he/she/it thinks a conservative believes with the hope of scoring virtue points by proving how awful conservatives are when people agree with them... only to be frustrated because the response to their professions of belief has actually been more along the lines of "fuck off you waste of human skin."

The remaining 1% odds is that they really are a spiteful loser who thinks genetics and not cultural norms you are raised with are the primary determinant of probability of success in life. They're not "right-wing"; they're just the mirror of the same idiocy of the Left who also thinks genetics trumps everything.

All evidence is that variances in human neural density are trivial factors compared to the values acculturated in a given group. Compare the many many successes of blacks in the United States just a few generations removed from Africa that they had between the Civil War and the advent of Johnson's New Deal programs designed to destroy the cultural elements that made them successful.

It wasn't genetics that let them progress greatly despite discrimination against them; it was the American Judeo-Christian values (including having a married mother and father raising their children) they grew up in.

The reason Pundit's analysis of why the Americas wouldn't be "Wokeanda" if the Europeans hadn't colonized them has zero to do with genetics and everything to do with the underlying cultures... the European culture built a world so abundant in resources and quality of life that self-loathing racists have the free time to make up their idiotic games instead of being beaten by a taskmaster and told to get back to work plowing the fields or mining by hand.

It was a combo of Germanic, Greco-Roman and Christian cultural elements that allowed such massive advances over the rest of the world (even the Dark Ages had their purpose in stripping away the overly centralized Roman authorities in favor of local and more responsive government that gave people more freedom to innovate while still having the roads, horses and a mostly common language needed to share the best ideas among a larger population).

Even more in the case of America it was the self-selection of risk takers who chose to endure long and dangerous sea voyages and uncertain conditions with limited resources on arrival in the hope of a better life that led to a culture of innovative risk takers with strong Judeo-Christian beliefs (as many of the risk takers were seeking a better life because of religious persecution in their former homes).

Basically, America had a talent stack that was unique in history that allowed it to become the superpower it did. Getting the same sort of talent stack anywhere else is just SJW magical thinking.

QuoteAh, noble!  Good one.

Finding proper sacrifice for Kamehamehamema, Overlord of Seas is always noble endevour.

QuoteNeural density?  WTF?

There is some element to that, but not on this level. And if last neural density upgrade was 6000 years ago in Mesopotamia then Iraqi people should have densest brain, because there is negligible influx of Mesopotamian DNA to Europe since this period - Europeans are mix of paleolithic hunter (so called Cro-Magnids), neolithic farmers from Anatolia (that were not kin to Mesopotamians) and Siberian Ancestral North Eurasians (culturally dominant element probably kept in some lores as various Hyperboreans and so on - also large part of Native American DNA is theirs) and in NE East Asian DNA that came with Finno-Ugric folk.

So nope in no way Mesopotamian neural density mutation would explain Europeans getting dominant umph over world in last millenium.

QuoteAnd no horses.

Which is something oft overlooked as people assume horses were in the Americas before Europeans came along. Sure a few civilizaions had pack animals of various sorts. But few, if any, had riding animals. Which vastly limits the spread of knowledge to just foot travel essentially.

Indeed. It also vastly limits usefulness of those damned wheels overall - considering Native Americans were able to design child toys with wheels, but without horses there were limited usefulness for adult size.

QuoteWhat..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn't a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don't even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.

I must say that's would be good augury for this game - if they will just add horses without explanation because of Western tropes, or not.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on March 10, 2021, 10:05:53 PM
The Spaniards steamrolled the central Native Americans even though they were greatly outnumbered.

You left out a LOT there.

Like how Cortez was obscenely lucky because the Aztecs were awaiting the return of Quetzacoatl. Or how the subject peoples that the Aztecs had conquered were good and pissed off and easily swayed to Cortez's side. When Cortez landed his forces fought three pitched battles with the Tlaxcalans before they decided 'yeah, this sucks, we'll join up with you instead of getting good and smoked', which gave him MORE troops (even if they were cannon fodder; quantity has a quality all its own, after all).

And then Cortez's boss in Cuba sends another 1400 troops to collect his wayward boy (remember, Cortez wasn't exactly following orders when he came to pillage), the reinforcements got stomped and the survivors recruited by Cortez and his Tlaxcalan auxiliaries.

Regarding Coyote & Crow,

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 07:30:05 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 03:35:46 AM
As far as I understand - world was generally nuked into Long Night by asteroid in this version, somewhere around 1000 BC. That's quite plausible to nuke most Eurasian powers.
Bit like this setting I've once read about when Black Plague killed 99% of Europeans, and Asian powers recolonized Europe.

You could have santa claus kill every last white person, and it wouldn't have made America sufficiently rich in certain resources required to produce a sufficiently advanced civilization, nor the kind of groundwork of concepts required to create a society that has concepts of the Rights of Man, the Scientific Method, or the Universality of God. You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

It is a complete fantasy...

Yes, I agree. I mean, "fantasy" is right there on the cover. This is a science fantasy game, where there are purple marks on people, animals, and plants since the asteroid strike - granting superhuman powers, like targeting hover drones with your clairvoyance. Is your complaint about Gamma World that realistically radiation won't make plants into sentient thinking characters?

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on March 10, 2021, 10:05:53 PM

Quote from: TJS on March 10, 2021, 08:47:43 PMIt would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

It would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they'd get steamrolled regardless of their population. The Spaniards steamrolled the central Native Americans even though they were greatly outnumbered. In fact, the British steamrolled much of the world despite being greatly outnumbered. Crossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps' nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

Cloyer - I don't agree about your real-world theories, but to keep this on the topic of gaming - would it satisfy you that the same asteroid strike that granted clairvoyance and other psychic powers also changed neural density? It seems reasonable to me.

(Edited out, because it's the wrong forum.)

QuoteI'm about 99% convinced that Cloyer is a Leftist Troll cosplaying what he/she/it thinks a conservative believes with the hope of scoring virtue points by proving how awful conservatives are when people agree with them... only to be frustrated because the response to their professions of belief has actually been more along the lines of "fuck off you waste of human skin."

The remaining 1% odds is that they really are a spiteful loser who thinks genetics and not cultural norms you are raised with are the primary determinant of probability of success in life. They're not "right-wing"; they're just the mirror of the same idiocy of the Left who also thinks genetics trumps everything.

All evidence is that variances in human neural density are trivial factors compared to the values acculturated in a given group. Compare the many many successes of blacks in the United States just a few generations removed from Africa that they had between the Civil War and the advent of Johnson's New Deal programs designed to destroy the cultural elements that made them successful.

It wasn't genetics that let them progress greatly despite discrimination against them; it was the American Judeo-Christian values (including having a married mother and father raising their children) they grew up in.

The reason Pundit's analysis of why the Americas wouldn't be "Wokeanda" if the Europeans hadn't colonized them has zero to do with genetics and everything to do with the underlying cultures... the European culture built a world so abundant in resources and quality of life that self-loathing racists have the free time to make up their idiotic games instead of being beaten by a taskmaster and told to get back to work plowing the fields or mining by hand.

It was a combo of Germanic, Greco-Roman and Christian cultural elements that allowed such massive advances over the rest of the world (even the Dark Ages had their purpose in stripping away the overly centralized Roman authorities in favor of local and more responsive government that gave people more freedom to innovate while still having the roads, horses and a mostly common language needed to share the best ideas among a larger population).

Even more in the case of America it was the self-selection of risk takers who chose to endure long and dangerous sea voyages and uncertain conditions with limited resources on arrival in the hope of a better life that led to a culture of innovative risk takers with strong Judeo-Christian beliefs (as many of the risk takers were seeking a better life because of religious persecution in their former homes).

Basically, America had a talent stack that was unique in history that allowed it to become the superpower it did. Getting the same sort of talent stack anywhere else is just SJW magical thinking.

I'm bit more cynical about nature / nurture dynamics (especially since social trends can change inborn trends - the most grandiose example is Neolithic population of East Asia ancestral to Chinese, Koreans and Japanese changing probably due to social inflicted selection their neurochemistry in quite significant way) though of course even if someone is biological racist then argument about mutation from Mesopotamia 6000 years ago being responsible for European mojo is of course idiotic, because we lack any statistically significant genetic link with those people.

But of course even less talented folk can fluorish in healthy culture, and indeed social programs for black Americans turned out to be force of extreme corruption.

Also: please can we not use this ridiculous Judeo-Christian values term. Like rabbinic judaism had any influence on fluorishing of European culture and growth of our values. :P

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 11, 2021, 01:33:30 PM
I'm bit more cynical about nature / nurture dynamics

And I'm the opposite because I see it every day in my parish where kids adopted from Africa are flourishing and exceling in our parish school. Having two loving parents raising you matters. Having a culture that promotes reason and morality matters. Environmental factors like pre-natal alcohol and drug use can affect outcomes, but those aren't genetic factors.

QuoteAlso: please can we not use this ridiculous Judeo-Christian values term. Like rabbinic judaism had any influence on fluorishing of European culture and growth of our values. :P

Its an acknowledgement that Christianity grew out of (non-Rabbinic) Judaism. Jesus was a Jew and the fulfillment of God's Covenant with the Jews, with David and with Abraham.

Pretending that Christianity could have flourished without its Jewish foundations is as ridiculous as this RPG we're discussing that pretends the indigenous populations of the Americas could produce a civilization technologically superior to Western Europe if only they'd not been colonized.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 11, 2021, 08:59:52 AM
I must say that's would be good augury for this game - if they will just add horses without explanation because of Western tropes, or not.

I had thought that horses actually evolved in the Americas and had migrated to Asia before becoming extinct in the Americas some 6000-13000 years ago or so.
That they didn't become extinct because of "reasons" might be an explanation.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2021, 03:06:39 PM
Pretending that Christianity could have flourished without its Jewish foundations is as ridiculous as this RPG we're discussing that pretends the indigenous populations of the Americas could produce a civilization technologically superior to Western Europe if only they'd not been colonized.

Have you read the Kickstarter? That's not the premise of the game. In the game, there is a major difference in that a giant object struck the Earth that has caused global disaster as well as strange effects including psychic powers such as clairvoyance - and hints of the supernatural such as spirits. It's not a realistic alternate history, but rather post-apocalyptic science fantasy.

Quote from: DocJones on March 11, 2021, 03:21:16 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 11, 2021, 08:59:52 AM
I must say that's would be good augury for this game - if they will just add horses without explanation because of Western tropes, or not.

I had thought that horses actually evolved in the Americas and had migrated to Asia before becoming extinct in the Americas some 6000-13000 years ago or so.
That they didn't become extinct because of "reasons" might be an explanation.

As far as I have seen, there is no mention of horses and I don't see any horses in the art. The game diverges from real-world history around the year 1400, so horses in the Americas were long extinct by that time.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2021, 08:45:49 AM
I'm about 99% convinced that Cloyer is a Leftist Troll cosplaying what he/she/it thinks a conservative believes with the hope of scoring virtue points by proving how awful conservatives are when people agree with them... only to be frustrated because the response to their professions of belief has actually been more along the lines of "fuck off you waste of human skin."

Cloyer Bulse has been around for a while, and he's never shown signs of trolling to me. He has posted before about his genetics theories, but he claims they're not connected to race per se in that . This was a post of his from 2019, for example, on the same neural density idea. He believes that the gene spreads through different races.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/sjws-are-liars!-the-hobby-always-welcomed-everyone!/msg1097614/#msg1097614

I don't mean to debate his views - but just that he seems to be consistent and not trolling.

Quote from: DocJones on March 11, 2021, 03:21:16 PM
I had thought that horses actually evolved in the Americas and had migrated to Asia before becoming extinct in the Americas some 6000-13000 years ago or so.
That they didn't become extinct because of "reasons" might be an explanation.

Given that the most likely reason was over-hunting by the newly arrived humans c. 12,000 years ago, their not becoming extinct pretty much negates the presence of indigenous peoples in the Americas (and their fantasy Wokeanda) as well.

The idea that indigenous populations were somehow more virtuous than the European colonist flies in the face of all evidence. They were just as horrible as any other humans, including hunting many species to extinction not just for food but as sport.

In fact the ONLY culture in human history that's given a damn about preserving other species is that of the Western European Christians (something about being a good steward in that book of morality they follow).

Realistically, a game set in an alternate history world where Europeans were wiped out would be a slave-based economy with Iron Age technology with the only variations depending on when your alternate history wiped out European culture.

ETA: and no, I haven't read the Kickstarter because I have no desire to even give them page views. Any game who's core premise is how magically great things would be without "Whitey" around can rightly fuck themselves with a chainsaw.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2021, 04:19:51 PM
Realistically, a game set in an alternate history world where Europeans were wiped out would be a slave-based economy with Iron Age technology with the only variations depending on when your alternate history wiped out European culture.

ETA: and no, I haven't read the Kickstarter because I have no desire to even give them page views. Any game who's core premise is how magically great things would be without "Whitey" around can rightly fuck themselves with a chainsaw.

If you don't want to read it, that's fine -- but if you're not going to read it, I don't think you can make claims about what it's about.

Are you interested in talking about realistic alternate histories without Europeans? GURPS Alternate Earths has an alternate timeline called "Ezcalli" that is set in 1840, and diverges when Carthage successfully makes colonies in the New World in 580 BC. With Carthage gaining from its colonies, Rome falls apart more thoroughly - and Europe doesn't receive most of Roman culture. Instead, Roman culture and Christianity are maintained in northern Africa, while Europe has Carthaginian and New World influence (notably the potato). Europe is then conquered by successive waves of Mongols. In 1840, the world superpowers are the Aztecs, the Songhay Empire, and the Mongol Khanates. Here's a variant of their map of the world:

(https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/ezcalli1-gif.7240/)
Source: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-map-thread.10468/page-57#post-341952

Technology is only slightly behind our own 1840, with a number of specific variances. Then again, the creators don't pitch it as very realistic - but a key problem was they were contractually required that they cross-sell the GURPS Aztecs book, and thus have Aztecs in 1840 that are at all recognizable as Aztec. If one rewrites the Aztec culture, many ideas in it intriguing, and might be useful for a Europe-missing alternate history.

If we were to just cause Europe to disappear in 580 BC or so? For the Americas, the most likely result is eventual colonization by Asia rather than colonization by Europe. They'd still be wiped out by disease and colonized, unfortunately. It's interesting to ask how the rest of the world would advance, though.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2021, 08:45:49 AM

Quote from: TJS on March 11, 2021, 12:12:47 AM

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on March 10, 2021, 10:05:53 PM
...Discredited Racist Bullshit Theories...

Neural density?  WTF?

The reason Pundit's analysis of why the Americas wouldn't be "Wokeanda" if the Europeans hadn't colonized them has zero to do with genetics and everything to do with the underlying cultures... the European culture built a world so abundant in resources and quality of life that self-loathing racists have the free time to make up their idiotic games instead of being beaten by a taskmaster and told to get back to work plowing the fields or mining by hand.

Well, culture AND the fact that America without the columbian exchange was missing a lot of vital ingredients that would be necessary for the development of a stable advanced civilization: like a better food source than maize, the horse, etc.

QuoteIt was a combo of Germanic, Greco-Roman and Christian cultural elements that allowed such massive advances over the rest of the world (even the Dark Ages had their purpose in stripping away the overly centralized Roman authorities in favor of local and more responsive government that gave people more freedom to innovate while still having the roads, horses and a mostly common language needed to share the best ideas among a larger population).

LOL "germanic". No.
Greco-Roman and Christian sure. Other than destroying the Roman Empire there's not much else the Germans contributed, at least until the Reformation. But the roots of the West's Success were the Greeks, Romans and Jews (via Christianity).

Quote from: TJS on March 11, 2021, 12:12:47 AM

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on March 10, 2021, 10:05:53 PM

Quote from: TJS on March 10, 2021, 08:47:43 PM....I think you could do it with earlier vikings.  Get germanic or norse ships over to North America earlier and have them bring horses and iron working and you've probably got a chance for that to trickle out across the Americas. European crops such as wheat would probably help as well.

It would still seem unlikely without some kind of further contrivance that the Americas would outstrip the old world in terms of technological advancement.

It would require early contact with the Greco-Roman world and substantial crossbreeding (as happened with the Germanic peoples) in order to ensure a higher level of neural density similar to Europeans, otherwise they'd get steamrolled regardless of their population. The Spaniards steamrolled the central Native Americans even though they were greatly outnumbered. In fact, the British steamrolled much of the world despite being greatly outnumbered. Crossbreeding over many generations in former colonies has enabled previously enslaved populations to throw off their former masters and become autonomous. The French terrorized, exploited, and interbred with the Vietnamese for a century before the Vietnam war, and so it was that the Americans faced what was in essence an angry wasps' nest that had some fairly intelligent leaders.

The main issue is that isolated populations evolve more slowly than those that have immediate access to trade routes. Being overrun and enslaved is the primary means by which genes have spread historically due to forced interbreeding. The latest version of the gene that causes increased neural density comes from Mesopotamia and appeared between 5 and 6 thousand years ago and has been quickly spreading outward since then.

Quote from: "Wicked Woodpecker of West"....Yup. As traditionalist and volkist I'm great supporter of ethnic fantasies even if they have jackshit to do with real possibilities of the world....

If that is what it were, then certainly. But more likely it is just white liberals making a game about their "people of color" pets in order to proselytize their ideology.

QuoteCoyote and Crow is a tabletop role playing game set in an alternate future of the Americas where colonization never occurred. Instead, advanced civilizations arose over hundreds of years after a massive climate disaster changed the history of the planet. You'll play as adventurers starting out in the city of Cahokia, a bustling, diverse metropolis along the Mississippi River. It's a world of science and spirituality where the future of technology and legends of the past will collide.

The phrase "science and spirituality" makes me think of the junk science and the "spiritual but not religious" nonsense of the radical leftists. I've sat in on these sorts of courses at the university, so I know it's just political propaganda.

Neural density?  WTF?

He's claiming, apparently, that certain races have sufficiently lower neural density and are therefore inherently less intelligent and generally inferior to others (guess which ones?) that have "high neural density". And I'm glad you posted this, because he did it in such a sneaky sort of way that I almost missed it completely.

This fucking site: every day I get a handful of reports of people bitching about how they didn't like something someone said to them, like I would give a fuck, and yet not one report on the neo-nazi bullshit.

A ban for him.  And to the "volkist" Anti-Semite Woodpecker. Jews, by the way, contributed vastly more to the development of the modern West than Germans.

Anyone else wants to try to change my point, against the kind of racial-supremacy utopian fantasizing, be ready for the same, no warning.

I don't give a fuck what type of racial supremacist you are: Aztec, Apache, White, Black or Green, try to push your garbage theories here and you'll be banned.

Quote from: jhkim on March 11, 2021, 12:53:59 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow,

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 07:30:05 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 03:35:46 AM
As far as I understand - world was generally nuked into Long Night by asteroid in this version, somewhere around 1000 BC. That's quite plausible to nuke most Eurasian powers.
Bit like this setting I've once read about when Black Plague killed 99% of Europeans, and Asian powers recolonized Europe.

You could have santa claus kill every last white person, and it wouldn't have made America sufficiently rich in certain resources required to produce a sufficiently advanced civilization, nor the kind of groundwork of concepts required to create a society that has concepts of the Rights of Man, the Scientific Method, or the Universality of God. You aren't going to get there when you're having huge trouble getting around to inventing the wheel.

It is a complete fantasy...

Yes, I agree. I mean, "fantasy" is right there on the cover. This is a science fantasy game, where there are purple marks on people, animals, and plants since the asteroid strike - granting superhuman powers, like targeting hover drones with your clairvoyance. Is your complaint about Gamma World that realistically radiation won't make plants into sentient thinking characters?

I can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

And even there, the fundamental result for the "humane" part has to be "the Aztecs (or whoever) suddenly develop values that are LIKE THE EUROPEANS for no reason".

But instead of saying "this is fantasy wish fulfillment, we know it would never have been that way", the entire POINT of this type of game is to try to claim that the world would be a utopia if the "evil white man" had just disappeared. Very very dangerous thinking.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 11, 2021, 08:59:52 AM
Indeed. It also vastly limits usefulness of those damned wheels overall - considering Native Americans were able to design child toys with wheels, but without horses there were limited usefulness for adult size.

QuoteWhat..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn't a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don't even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.

I must say that's would be good augury for this game - if they will just add horses without explanation because of Western tropes, or not.

At a guess... terrain has some factor in why they did not make use of the wheel more. Wheels are not very practical on rough terrain, or even moderate terrain. Great for flat stretches and plains. But approaching useless as you get into real wilderness. For the wheel to become useful you need eventually paths cleared or actual roads. And someone to make a connection that wheels can make moving materials easier.

Also keep in mind that even long after being introduced to wheels and wagons that alot of tribes never adopted it. Probably for that pesky terrain reason.

But yeah odds are the people making this game are just trying to cash in. I'll be surprised if it is even remotely researched past a superficial google glossing over.

It also reads like a weak minority-flip of Black As Fuck where the only metahumans are black.

As said. Its not a new idea and can and has been done well. Just we aint seein that likely anymore.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:30:40 PMI can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

And even there, the fundamental result for the "humane" part has to be "the Aztecs (or whoever) suddenly develop values that are LIKE THE EUROPEANS for no reason".

But instead of saying "this is fantasy wish fulfillment, we know it would never have been that way", the entire POINT of this type of game is to try to claim that the world would be a utopia if the "evil white man" had just disappeared. Very very dangerous thinking.

1: I think it could happen. There were some fairly advanced civilizations in the americas. Problem is. Each seemed to be in one way or another somehow very specialized and whatever advanced techniques they used. Were practically one-trick ponies. And then they die out or were exterminated by other civilizations. Much like say the mongols or vikings. They excelled in some areas but were oft way behind in practically everything else for one reason or another.

It is also hard to develop a civilization when everyone seems hellbent on genociding everyone else well before those pesky europeans arrived.

2: Thats a bit harder. But there were some large tribal unions that could have solidified into something more. But never did. It likely would not have been like europe. But likely would have some simmilarities. The Aztecs or Incas could have. But it would be some weird values akin to say feudal Japan.

3: Exactly. This is why it raises some red flags right off. And even if it is not an agenda platform it is still a cash-in on BAF and Black Panther.

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:31:41 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 11, 2021, 08:59:52 AM
Indeed. It also vastly limits usefulness of those damned wheels overall - considering Native Americans were able to design child toys with wheels, but without horses there were limited usefulness for adult size.

QuoteWhat..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn't a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don't even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.

I must say that's would be good augury for this game - if they will just add horses without explanation because of Western tropes, or not.

At a guess... terrain has some factor in why they did not make use of the wheel more. Wheels are not very practical on rough terrain, or even moderate terrain. Great for flat stretches and plains. But approaching useless as you get into real wilderness. For the wheel to become useful you need eventually paths cleared or actual roads. And someone to make a connection that wheels can make moving materials easier.

Also keep in mind that even long after being introduced to wheels and wagons that alot of tribes never adopted it. Probably for that pesky terrain reason.

Incidentally added to this is the free rider problem. Wheels work best with roads. Roads are expensive to build and maintain. If you build a road anyone can use it. Bad enough if it's just random travellers who haven't contributed and use it to move in and settle good nearby land. It is even worse if an enemy army can use it to march across your territory.

For a primitive society, even if you had the theoretical knowledge of the wheel and the basic resources to build a road it still wouldn't necessarily be obvious whether roads and wheels would be a worthwhile endeavour.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:15:12 PM
LOL "germanic". No.
Greco-Roman and Christian sure. Other than destroying the Roman Empire there's not much else the Germans contributed, at least until the Reformation. But the roots of the West's Success were the Greeks, Romans and Jews (via Christianity).

Ehhh.  There's an argument to be made that the political system and philosophy of England (which definitely drove the emergent political systems of North America) owes something to the Norse/Germanic Althing and other concepts.  The Normans brought a blend of European and northern ideas which can be argued to have been vital to the growth of the quintessential English "character."  And England was, in many ways, the father of American culture.  So the Germanic cultures had more influence that you give them credit for...

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:49:38 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:30:40 PMI can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

And even there, the fundamental result for the "humane" part has to be "the Aztecs (or whoever) suddenly develop values that are LIKE THE EUROPEANS for no reason".

But instead of saying "this is fantasy wish fulfillment, we know it would never have been that way", the entire POINT of this type of game is to try to claim that the world would be a utopia if the "evil white man" had just disappeared. Very very dangerous thinking.

1: I think it could happen. There were some fairly advanced civilizations in the americas. Problem is. Each seemed to be in one way or another somehow very specialized and whatever advanced techniques they used. Were practically one-trick ponies. And then they die out or were exterminated by other civilizations. Much like say the mongols or vikings. They excelled in some areas but were oft way behind in practically everything else for one reason or another.

The main problem, and the REASON why those relatively advanced cultures collapse very quickly, is a lack of certain fundamental resources that do not exist in the Americas until the Europeans arrive.

Quote
2: Thats a bit harder. But there were some large tribal unions that could have solidified into something more. But never did. It likely would not have been like europe. But likely would have some simmilarities. The Aztecs or Incas could have. But it would be some weird values akin to say feudal Japan.

The Japanese had Buddhism at least. But the point is that the gods of the Aztecs (and to a lesser extent, the Incas) were monstrous motherfuckers. They had no advanced philosophies of the types of concepts presented by Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddha, the patriarchs of Judaism, Zoroaster, the greek philosophers, and Christ. 

Assuming you magically gave them the resources what you'd have is essentially the most unimaginably evil empire in human history, bathing the world in blood, unless you change them to be more European in values. Which essentially destroys the notion that they were better off without the evil-white-man.

Of course, their answer to this is to whitewash everything, pretend that the Aztecs were sweethearts (all those thousands of human sacrifices a year were happy volunteers, don't you know, and it was good for the environment!), the plains tribes never ever engaged in warfare, there was no crime, starvation, mass poverty (the Aztec and Inca lower classes sucked), and brutal brutal violence at every level, because all those are things only the 'evil white man' brought.
So in other words, the solution left is to make Native Americans non-humans, mythical avatars of moral perfection. The "Noble Savage", in fact. Some leftist tropes never die, they just switch dresses.

Interesting thought.  Being westerners, or at least mostly influenced by western culture, our very definition of Good and Evil are shaped by that culture.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:30:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 11, 2021, 12:53:59 PM
This is a science fantasy game, where there are purple marks on people, animals, and plants since the asteroid strike - granting superhuman powers, like targeting hover drones with your clairvoyance. Is your complaint about Gamma World that realistically radiation won't make plants into sentient thinking characters?

I can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

I think the awis/asteroid strike is pretty directly comparable to vibranium. It has strange effects on plants and animals including purple spots, and grants superhuman powers. Superhuman powers are effectively magic, and especially since unlike vibranium, the powers can be mental powers like clairvoyance, it seems like it gives even more leeway to justify advancements. Really, I don't get your response - the awis is exactly like what you say. You're saying *plants* could become thinking beings with weird radiation, but *native Americans* couldn't become civilized beings even with superhuman mental powers?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:15:12 PM
Well, culture AND the fact that America without the columbian exchange was missing a lot of vital ingredients that would be necessary for the development of a stable advanced civilization: like a better food source than maize, the horse, etc.

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:49:38 PM
There were some fairly advanced civilizations in the americas. Problem is. Each seemed to be in one way or another somehow very specialized and whatever advanced techniques they used. Were practically one-trick ponies. And then they die out or were exterminated by other civilizations. Much like say the mongols or vikings. They excelled in some areas but were oft way behind in practically everything else for one reason or another.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
The main problem, and the REASON why those relatively advanced cultures collapse very quickly, is a lack of certain fundamental resources that do not exist in the Americas until the Europeans arrive.

The main four civilizations I think we're talking about are the Mayans, the Mississippians, the Aztecs, and the Incas. I don't know if I'd call them one-trick ponies, but they definitely have a different set of advances compared to the standard of more familiar early Mediterranean and Asian civilizations. The Incas had advanced road-building, agriculture, pottery, textiles, city planning, and social structures. However, they lacked iron-working, the wheel, and writing - which were developed much much earlier in Eurasia.

I disagree with Pundit that other food sources and the horse are required for advanced civilization. American Indians had really great plant agriculture. Maize, potatoes, and beans were competitive with what Europe had to offer. (Plus extras like chocolate, peppers, quinoa, etc.) You can see this because long after European contact, natives and even colonizers were still eating these plants. They were really lacking in domestic animals like the horse, cow, and pig -- but I don't see that those are necessary for advanced civilization.

I think that particularly with mental superpowers, they could develop iron-working, the wheel, and writing without using horses.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
The Japanese had Buddhism at least. But the point is that the gods of the Aztecs (and to a lesser extent, the Incas) were monstrous motherfuckers. They had no advanced philosophies of the types of concepts presented by Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddha, the patriarchs of Judaism, Zoroaster, the greek philosophers, and Christ. 

Assuming you magically gave them the resources what you'd have is essentially the most unimaginably evil empire in human history, bathing the world in blood, unless you change them to be more European in values. Which essentially destroys the notion that they were better off without the evil-white-man.

First of all, I think the extent of American Indian philosophies is largely unknown, since they didn't have writing. But you're contradicting yourself here. You note Confucius, Lao Tzu, and Buddha as advanced philosophies -- but then you claim that Europe is the only possible source of advancement. I think figures like Buddha shows that Europe is *not* required. *If* the Americas were to have many centuries of advancement with no European contact, then it's possible that they would develop writing on their own - and then have philosophers like Lao Tzu and/or Buddha.

The Aztecs were bastards (widely considered so even by other peoples of the area), but I don't think the Incans were particularly worse than the ancient (pre-Christian) Assyrians, Saxons, Mongols, or many other peoples of Eurasia.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:27:12 PM
This fucking site: every day I get a handful of reports of people bitching about how they didn't like something someone said to them, like I would give a fuck, and yet not one report on the neo-nazi bullshit.

What can I say, I am a consistent non reporter.

In my experience calling down the mods never gets you what you want anyway.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 11, 2021, 08:00:50 PM
There's an argument to be made that the political system and philosophy of England (which definitely drove the emergent political systems of North America) owes something to the Norse/Germanic Althing and other concepts.  The Normans brought a blend of European and northern ideas which can be argued to have been vital to the growth of the quintessential English "character."  And England was, in many ways, the father of American culture.  So the Germanic cultures had more influence that you give them credit for...

That's pretty much the angle I was coming from. The early kings of Europe were Germanic chieftans who adopted Christianity and various Roman elements.

One of the clearest signs of Germanic influence is how many English words derive from German, including the names of the week (Tyr's day, Woden's day, Thor's day, Fria's day). A secondary sign is the familiarity of Germanic mythology falling just slightly behind Greco-Roman mythology and the Bible in terms of familiarity (to the point that it was something Tolkien felt comfortable pulling from in creating Middle Earth).

Also, even though it's not the reason I mentioned them, I also wouldn't discount the value of tearing down the corrupt and over-centralized Roman power centers and the resulting benefits to society from more localized power and the necessity and freedom to innovate. Clearing out corruption often requires the political equivalent of a forest fire to clear away all the rotten dead wood so that new growth can occur.

This doesn't mean they're the biggest element of the European potpourri; but I'd definitely put them at numer three after Judeo-Christian and Roman cultural elements.

Which is the other element that makes the racist idiocy of games like this one we've been discussing so tone deaf... their ridiculous notion that European culture is some "always has been, always will be" monoculture that arose all on its own instead the truth that European (and, by extension, American) culture is actually a fusion of multiple cultures into a whole greater than the sum of its parts (basically Scott Adams' Talent Stack on a societal level).

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:49:38 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:30:40 PMI can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

And even there, the fundamental result for the "humane" part has to be "the Aztecs (or whoever) suddenly develop values that are LIKE THE EUROPEANS for no reason".

But instead of saying "this is fantasy wish fulfillment, we know it would never have been that way", the entire POINT of this type of game is to try to claim that the world would be a utopia if the "evil white man" had just disappeared. Very very dangerous thinking.

1: I think it could happen. There were some fairly advanced civilizations in the americas. Problem is. Each seemed to be in one way or another somehow very specialized and whatever advanced techniques they used. Were practically one-trick ponies. And then they die out or were exterminated by other civilizations. Much like say the mongols or vikings. They excelled in some areas but were oft way behind in practically everything else for one reason or another.

One of the main reasons they were one trick ponies is because they didn't know each other existed. That's another serious limitation of the Americas -- it lacks a Silk Road equivalent, an east-west path along a very long stretch of the continent. The reason that's important is because migration of flora and fauna tends to be along bands of latitude where the climate and other conditions are roughly comparable, and that has a major influence on the spread of civilization because they're heavily dependent on their domesticated animals and crops to support their populations and empires. That kind of interchange happened easily happened across Afroeurasia, but there's nothing equivalent in the Americas, which stretch north and south not east and west, narrow to a tiny bottleneck in the middle, and have massive natural barriers. The major pockets of early American civilization -- for instance the Inca in the south, the Aztecs in the middle, and the various nations in the north -- were never able to set up trade with each other, and didn't even seem to realize each other existed. It's amazing the civilizations in the Americas got as far as they did, because the biggest multiplier of learning and technology is interaction with more people, and they were stuck in tiny pockets.

Though there's a fairly simple way for the Americas to develop into a highly advanced technological civilization without European colonization: Just wipe out the rest of the world. The Americas were off to a slow start and once in the race they were hobbled by local limitations, but they're still people. If some kind of extinction event takes out the human population of the Old World, the New would have kept advancing, and they'd eventually reach technological heights. The question is how long it would take, and how radically the civilization would change in the process. Aztecs with space travel certainly wouldn't be anything we'd recognize as "Aztec", for instance. Which loses the alt-history audience, who tend to want twists on established history that leave lots of familiar touchstones, not something unrecognizable.

To elaborate on what I said earlier.  Here's how I would do it.

Current thinking seems to be that the germanic raiders of the late roman era such as the Saxons, Jutes, etc, were probably closer to viking boat building techniques then we used to think.  There seems to have been an expansion at that time which then stopped, likely due to political turmoil in northern europe before commencing again with the viking age.

So lets say it never stops.  This might just get the vikings to Newfoundland a few centuries earlier, may the late 6th century at the earliest.  Even then there's not a huge amount of motivation to go all the way to North America to set up colonies.  It's too far away for effective trade given that what it has (Mostly furs) can be found much closer to home in Eastern Europe. But the vikings did at least make an effort to make a colony at least once in our time line so it's not out of the question.  It's unlikely you'd ever get a particularly large number of Norse in North America but you might get enough for them to have an outsize influence compared to their numbers.And you could end up with a kind of syncretic Norse/Native American religion.  A great plains Genghis Khan burning the cities of the Atlantic coast in the name of Raven/Odin. 

You could go back even earlier and have Carthage defeat Rome.  This could mean that a victorious Carthage doesn't quite expand as far into Europe as the Romans as they're centred further south.  You might have an incentive for northern europe boat building to expand even further as they want to get down to Iberia for the rich trade goods the Carhaginans have to offer them.  And the Carthagians are more interested in sea voyages themselves so there's a remote chance they might advance their own boat building to cross the Atlantic from Spain.

So in this timeline of Carthage triumphant we get a period of ships from Carthage crossing the Atlantic, where they find gold in Meso-American, and perhaps follow the tradewinds north up the coast of North America and take the Gulf Stream back.  You get an earlier Columbian exchange.

Now let's say Carthage does not surive any longer than Rome does in our world.  In fact it would likely have less of a European presence, so it could likely be that what advanced civilisation there is in Europe is more devastated by the age of migrations and the Huns end up burning and plundering through the Italian and Greek peninsulas devastating much of what's left of Ancient Greek culture.

The rump of Carthage itself gets wiped out by one or another barbarian tribe within a century or two and voyages across the Atlantic cease.

You now have quite a long time for the Americas to recover from disease and for the technological benefits of the Colombian exchange (and possibly some cultural ones) to percolate through the continent. Europe meanwhile is held back by centuries.  Of course the civilsations that arise in this timeline won't exactly be Incan or Aztec as we would recognise them.

Quote from: TJS on March 12, 2021, 12:29:06 AM
You could go back even earlier and have Carthage defeat Rome.  This could mean that a victorious Carthage doesn't quite expand as far into Europe as the Romans as they're centred further south.  You might have an incentive for northern europe boat building to expand even further as they want to get down to Iberia for the rich trade goods the Carhaginans have to offer them.  And the Carthagians are more interested in sea voyages themselves so there's a remote chance they might advance their own boat building to cross the Atlantic from Spain.

So in this timeline of Carthage triumphant we get a period of ships from Carthage crossing the Atlantic, where they find gold in Meso-American, and perhaps follow the tradewinds north up the coast of North America and take the Gulf Stream back.  You get an earlier Columbian exchange.

Now let's say Carthage does not surive any longer than Rome does in our world.  In fact it would likely have less of a European presence, so it could likely be that what advanced civilisation there is in Europe is more devastated by the age of migrations and the Huns end up burning and plundering through the Italian and Greek peninsulas devastating much of what's left of Ancient Greek culture.

The rump of Carthage itself gets wiped out by one or another barbarian tribe within a century or two and voyages across the Atlantic cease.

You now have quite a long time for the Americas to recover from disease and for the technological benefits of the Colombian exchange (and possibly some cultural ones) to percolate through the continent. Europe meanwhile is held back by centuries.  Of course the civilsations that arise in this timeline won't exactly be Incan or Aztec as we would recognise them.

Yes, this is very close to the "Ezcalli" timeline from GURPS Alternate Earths that I mentioned in a previous post. This allows introducing the Columbian exchange much earlier, when the differential between Europe and the New World was not as great. They also noted that introducing the potato could throw a wrench into European development. The potato doesn't require mills or large-scale organization of harvest and threshing, so it allows fragmenting into smaller tribes and clans. Here's a brief summary -

https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/doku.php?id=alternate_history:gurps#ezcalli

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2021, 11:28:02 PM
(Re: roots of European culture)
Which is the other element that makes the racist idiocy of games like this one we've been discussing so tone deaf... their ridiculous notion that European culture is some "always has been, always will be" monoculture that arose all on its own instead the truth that European (and, by extension, American) culture is actually a fusion of multiple cultures into a whole greater than the sum of its parts (basically Scott Adams' Talent Stack on a societal level).

I don't see anything in the Coyote & Crow kickstarter that implies a European monoculture. They don't have any mention of Europe and the rest of the Old World -- it's left as unknown territory in the game. Since you claim you haven't even read the kickstarter, claims like this seem pretty ridiculous to me.

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 02:41:09 AM
Yes, this is very close to the "Ezcalli" timeline from GURPS Alternate Earths that I mentioned in a previous post. This allows introducing the Columbian exchange much earlier, when the differential between Europe and the New World was not as great. They also noted that introducing the potato could throw a wrench into European development. The potato doesn't require mills or large-scale organization of harvest and threshing, so it allows fragmenting into smaller tribes and clans. Here's a brief summary -

James C Scott writes about this in "The Art of Not Being Governed" (It's about South East Asia and talks about Sweet Potatoes but the principle is the same).

Basically states like big monocultures of grains like wheat or rice that have to be stored.  This makes them easy to keep track of and to tax.

Root vegetables are grown in the ground, are a lot easier to hide, and can be eaten after you dig them up.  They're a lot harder to keep track of.  Scott writes how in South East Asia states would often have trouble maintaining their population as people would flee to marginal land such as hills or swamps where the state had a lot of trouble projecting it's authority and grow sweet potato.  They were thus free from taxes and generally had a better diet (less monoculture).   This in turn lend to  cycle of states engaging in war partly in order to capture slaves and maintain their population.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:27:12 PM
This fucking site: every day I get a handful of reports of people bitching about how they didn't like something someone said to them, like I would give a fuck, and yet not one report on the neo-nazi bullshit.

This is a free speech site. Nobody needs to be bitching to you, nor reporting wrongthink.

And you can keep banning all the "neo-nazi bullshit" and your detractors will keep calling you a naughty nutzi forever and ever.

EDIT: Since race based scientific analysis is effectively forbidden, the nature/nurture question is going to stick with us and be plagued with pseudo-science and bias.

I may disagree with some of the Pundit's politics, but he's earned my respect as a free-speech advocate, and (in my opinion) a man of integrity.  Free speech doesn't mean tolerating or advocating hate speech, and he doesn't.  Or I wouldn't be here.

Quote from: TJS on March 12, 2021, 02:59:36 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 02:41:09 AM
Yes, this is very close to the "Ezcalli" timeline from GURPS Alternate Earths that I mentioned in a previous post. This allows introducing the Columbian exchange much earlier, when the differential between Europe and the New World was not as great. They also noted that introducing the potato could throw a wrench into European development. The potato doesn't require mills or large-scale organization of harvest and threshing, so it allows fragmenting into smaller tribes and clans. Here's a brief summary -

James C Scott writes about this in "The Art of Not Being Governed" (It's about South East Asia and talks about Sweet Potatoes but the principle is the same).

Basically states like big monocultures of grains like wheat or rice that have to be stored.  This makes them easy to keep track of and to tax.

Root vegetables are grown in the ground, are a lot easier to hide, and can be eaten after you dig them up.  They're a lot harder to keep track of.  Scott writes how in South East Asia states would often have trouble maintaining their population as people would flee to marginal land such as hills or swamps where the state had a lot of trouble projecting it's authority and grow sweet potato.  They were thus free from taxes and generally had a better diet (less monoculture).   This in turn lend to  cycle of states engaging in war partly in order to capture slaves and maintain their population.

Which, to bring it back to the OP, lets us imagine a community of happy, freedom-loving (within the constraints of enforced observance of each others' narcissistic need for approbation, and of respect for a partial and biased assessment of the requirements of the natural environment), grossly overweight but physically superbly capable (and amorously successful) sweet potato munchers, bravely defying the Colonial Governor who controls the coast from their mobility-assist-accessible mountain fastnesses under the inclusive leadership of the great Beauregard Batata.

The OSR version could be "Bellies and Bali". Although I'd probably prefer the d100 version, Fatquest.

Quote from: Brigman on March 12, 2021, 04:50:38 AM
Free speech doesn't mean tolerating or advocating hate speech

You don't know what that term means, apparently.  That's exactly what free speech means.  It's Pundit's place, so he can ban whoever he wants.  I certainly won't miss either of the two that were banned.  But free speech means defeating speech you don't like with more speech, not less.  But this is an RPG forum, so I can understand why he doesn't want racialist BS here, just because beating it back would take focus away from the purpose of this forum.  But, by definition, free speech means tolerating all speech.  So you are just wrong.

Quote from: Pat on March 12, 2021, 12:01:12 AM
One of the main reasons they were one trick ponies is because they didn't know each other existed. That's another serious limitation of the Americas -- it lacks a Silk Road equivalent, an east-west path along a very long stretch of the continent. The reason that's important is because migration of flora and fauna tends to be along bands of latitude where the climate and other conditions are roughly comparable, and that has a major influence on the spread of civilization because they're heavily dependent on their domesticated animals and crops to support their populations and empires. That kind of interchange happened easily happened across Afroeurasia, but there's nothing equivalent in the Americas, which stretch north and south not east and west, narrow to a tiny bottleneck in the middle, and have massive natural barriers. The major pockets of early American civilization -- for instance the Inca in the south, the Aztecs in the middle, and the various nations in the north -- were never able to set up trade with each other, and didn't even seem to realize each other existed. It's amazing the civilizations in the Americas got as far as they did, because the biggest multiplier of learning and technology is interaction with more people, and they were stuck in tiny pockets.

We have an example in real history of how that might play out, in one respect:  The development of the Cherokee alphabet.  The Cherokee didn't need much lead time once exposed to the idea of an alphabet to run with it.  Sequoya saw the value almost immediately.  Problem was that they needed more lead time than they had for it to spread.  Or for Sequoya to be born much earlier.  And of course Sequoya was able to build it because he was a bright guy that got to immerse in another culture. 

So another way to introduce a plausible alternate history is have the Vikings go a little further south into the Iroquois nations (northern relatives of the Cherokees with regular trade and communication with them, unusual for the Americas), make friends long enough for a few Iroquois to go back to Europe, immerse, and then go home.  The odds of getting someone of Sequoya's insight are low, but then in a fantastical alternate history, that is the serendipity that you need to make it stick. 

Quote from: Brigman on March 12, 2021, 04:50:38 AM
I may disagree with some of the Pundit's politics, but he's earned my respect as a free-speech advocate, and (in my opinion) a man of integrity.  Free speech doesn't mean tolerating or advocating hate speech, and he doesn't.  Or I wouldn't be here.

The very concept of "hate speech" is antithetical to the idea of free speech. But that crap doesn't belong in this forum, either.

Quote from: jhkim on March 11, 2021, 10:57:29 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
The Japanese had Buddhism at least. But the point is that the gods of the Aztecs (and to a lesser extent, the Incas) were monstrous motherfuckers. They had no advanced philosophies of the types of concepts presented by Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddha, the patriarchs of Judaism, Zoroaster, the greek philosophers, and Christ. 

Assuming you magically gave them the resources what you'd have is essentially the most unimaginably evil empire in human history, bathing the world in blood, unless you change them to be more European in values. Which essentially destroys the notion that they were better off without the evil-white-man.

First of all, I think the extent of American Indian philosophies is largely unknown, since they didn't have writing. But you're contradicting yourself here. You note Confucius, Lao Tzu, and Buddha as advanced philosophies -- but then you claim that Europe is the only possible source of advancement. I think figures like Buddha shows that Europe is *not* required. *If* the Americas were to have many centuries of advancement with no European contact, then it's possible that they would develop writing on their own - and then have philosophers like Lao Tzu and/or Buddha.

The Aztecs were bastards (widely considered so even by other peoples of the area), but I don't think the Incans were particularly worse than the ancient (pre-Christian) Assyrians, Saxons, Mongols, or many other peoples of Eurasia.

No, I never claimed that only Europe could be a source of advancement. I claimed (well, its more of an obvious fact than a claim) that Europe ended up creating both the most technologically advanced and the most humane civilization of all time. Any human culture with the right resources and enough time could theoretically develop an advanced civilization, but certain regions had the benefit of more beneficial resources in abundance to allow them the amount of time of civilizational stability to develop advanced ideas. The west was especially lucky due to a combination of events that all contributed to the development of a sufficiently advanced culture that it could develop concepts of human rights that no other civilization did; but in theory had things gone a bit differently for China, India or the Middle-East, they could have done so as well. They just didn't (India had a variety of small setbacks that prevented it, while in my opinion the main factor that ruined China and the Middle-East chances was the unbelievably devastating effect of the Mongol invasions.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2021, 11:28:02 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 11, 2021, 08:00:50 PM
There's an argument to be made that the political system and philosophy of England (which definitely drove the emergent political systems of North America) owes something to the Norse/Germanic Althing and other concepts.  The Normans brought a blend of European and northern ideas which can be argued to have been vital to the growth of the quintessential English "character."  And England was, in many ways, the father of American culture.  So the Germanic cultures had more influence that you give them credit for...

That's pretty much the angle I was coming from. The early kings of Europe were Germanic chieftans who adopted Christianity and various Roman elements.

One of the clearest signs of Germanic influence is how many English words derive from German, including the names of the week (Tyr's day, Woden's day, Thor's day, Fria's day). A secondary sign is the familiarity of Germanic mythology falling just slightly behind Greco-Roman mythology and the Bible in terms of familiarity (to the point that it was something Tolkien felt comfortable pulling from in creating Middle Earth).

Also, even though it's not the reason I mentioned them, I also wouldn't discount the value of tearing down the corrupt and over-centralized Roman power centers and the resulting benefits to society from more localized power and the necessity and freedom to innovate. Clearing out corruption often requires the political equivalent of a forest fire to clear away all the rotten dead wood so that new growth can occur.

This doesn't mean they're the biggest element of the European potpourri; but I'd definitely put them at numer three after Judeo-Christian and Roman cultural elements.

Which is the other element that makes the racist idiocy of games like this one we've been discussing so tone deaf... their ridiculous notion that European culture is some "always has been, always will be" monoculture that arose all on its own instead the truth that European (and, by extension, American) culture is actually a fusion of multiple cultures into a whole greater than the sum of its parts (basically Scott Adams' Talent Stack on a societal level).

Of all the European cultures, the one that became the most advanced, and became the largest proponent of the Enlightenment ideals that made the West morally better than any other civilization, was the Anglo-Saxon/Norman culture. So obviously, one small part of the recipe for that was the influence of the Saxons. But you could equally point to the Norman influence; and neither of these were as important as the influence of Greco-Roman thought and the particular development of English Christianity.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 12, 2021, 04:39:29 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:27:12 PM
This fucking site: every day I get a handful of reports of people bitching about how they didn't like something someone said to them, like I would give a fuck, and yet not one report on the neo-nazi bullshit.

This is a free speech site. Nobody needs to be bitching to you, nor reporting wrongthink.

And you can keep banning all the "neo-nazi bullshit" and your detractors will keep calling you a naughty nutzi forever and ever.

Good thing that's not why I do it, then.

The theory I have is that you have to have several factors, in the right place at the right time, to get a civilization progressing beyond the basic hunter-gatherer stage. Environmental pressures, access to certain resources, and a limit on friction with competing neighbors (lest said neighbors wipe you out or absorb you).

Much like cooking, in a way. If you don't have the right factors in the right place, your souffle -- or your nascent civilization -- collapses.

Pundit, what else would need to change for the Native Americans to flourish beyond stone age and form a power bloc to oppose any colonization? You've mentioned the lack of draft animals and crops. I have a seed of an idea but I wanna cook it a bit first.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 10:19:05 AM
The theory I have is that you have to have several factors, in the right place at the right time, to get a civilization progressing beyond the basic hunter-gatherer stage. Environmental pressures, access to certain resources, and a limit on friction with competing neighbors (lest said neighbors wipe you out or absorb you).

Much like cooking, in a way. If you don't have the right factors in the right place, your souffle -- or your nascent civilization -- collapses.

Pundit, what else would need to change for the Native Americans to flourish beyond stone age and form a power bloc to oppose any colonization? You've mentioned the lack of draft animals and crops. I have a seed of an idea but I wanna cook it a bit first.

I would strongly recommend the Origins of Political Order by Francis Fukuyma. It lays out his thesis for the development of society from huntergather groupings to tribes, nation states and so on.

Interestingly despite being a liberal atheist himself he posits that religion was a crucial ingredient.

Very simplistically, ancestor worship and especially mythical common ancestors for wide groups (think Romulus) allow wider cooperation than just immediate family. However religions need to continue to develop and become more sophisticated as well to allow a culture to develop further.

Eventually an organised religion that you can convert people who aren't related to you allows very wide cooperation and loyalty not possible in a tribal system.

He also argues that along the way the theological amd metaphysical principles of your religion also matter and directly link to political and economic developments.  For example an omnipotent God that judges you naturally encourages the idea of rule of law to develop through personal morality. Essentially it is an internal check and balance regardless of an individuala political status.

Personal salvation of your soul (rather than simply protecting your ancestors and tribe) encourages the idea that you are ultimately responsible for your own wellbeing. This encourages individualism, personal liberty and property ownership rather than tribal ownership.

In short the old cliche of religion being the cause of all war is true. But only in so much as it is also the cause of everything.

He also heavily favours geography as another key component of the development of cultures. Essentially Europe had the perfect georgraphy to allow centralised kingdoms and empires to form but that would constantly face opposition, rebellion and eventually insurmountable challenges and inevitably decline. This allowed overall advancement across the continent without the technological and culture stagnation that China faced after a centralised state was formed.

Once you get into what we would consider modern nation states basically having a population that actually believes in the basic cultural principles combined with a government that avoids systemic corruption is crucial. 

On this basis I'd say North America's big problem is geographic. Early on if a bronze age warlord sets himself up as King anyone who disagrees has plenty of space to just up and leave without needing to fight. Pretty difficult to create a centralised state with specialist job roles in those circumstances.

Quote from: TJS on March 12, 2021, 02:59:36 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 02:41:09 AM
Yes, this is very close to the "Ezcalli" timeline from GURPS Alternate Earths that I mentioned in a previous post. This allows introducing the Columbian exchange much earlier, when the differential between Europe and the New World was not as great. They also noted that introducing the potato could throw a wrench into European development. The potato doesn't require mills or large-scale organization of harvest and threshing, so it allows fragmenting into smaller tribes and clans.

James C Scott writes about this in "The Art of Not Being Governed" (It's about South East Asia and talks about Sweet Potatoes but the principle is the same).

Basically states like big monocultures of grains like wheat or rice that have to be stored.  This makes them easy to keep track of and to tax.

Root vegetables are grown in the ground, are a lot easier to hide, and can be eaten after you dig them up.  They're a lot harder to keep track of.  Scott writes how in South East Asia states would often have trouble maintaining their population as people would flee to marginal land such as hills or swamps where the state had a lot of trouble projecting it's authority and grow sweet potato.  They were thus free from taxes and generally had a better diet (less monoculture). This in turn lend to  cycle of states engaging in war partly in order to capture slaves and maintain their population.

Yeah, that describes the effect more pointedly. So in Europe, that would make it less likely for a Charlemagne and other large states to develop. If one is developing a realistic alternate history, it's an intriguing possibility.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 10:19:05 AM
The theory I have is that you have to have several factors, in the right place at the right time, to get a civilization progressing beyond the basic hunter-gatherer stage. Environmental pressures, access to certain resources, and a limit on friction with competing neighbors (lest said neighbors wipe you out or absorb you).

Much like cooking, in a way. If you don't have the right factors in the right place, your souffle -- or your nascent civilization -- collapses.

Pundit, what else would need to change for the Native Americans to flourish beyond stone age and form a power bloc to oppose any colonization? You've mentioned the lack of draft animals and crops. I have a seed of an idea but I wanna cook it a bit first.

I agree that conditions for advancement are necessary for progress. However, calling the Native Americans "stone age" is extremely deceptive. The big American civilizations were far more developed than anything in the Eurasian stone age. Particularly in Mesoamerica and the Andes, they had advanced plant agriculture, growing crops to feed huge cities. In 1500, Tenochtitlan had a population of 400,000 -- when the largest city in Europe at the time was Paris at 225,000. They had irrigation, pottery, textiles, road-building, math, calendars, and more. Incan textiles were just as advanced as Europe's, for example, where cotton weaving was just getting started in 1500.

One important clarification - I said I didn't think draft animals were necessary for advancement, which I think is true. However, I do think more domesticated animals would be necessary to oppose Eurasian colonization. The key is disease. Living in close contact with a variety of animals leads to the development of more diseases - like anthrax from sheep and so forth. Far moreso than iron and guns, what killed off Native Americans in the real world were Eurasian diseases. The horse is also very important militarily, but disease is far more important.

For the Americas, they were long past hunter-gatherer. I think Pat's had a great point earlier about their limitation in further advancement:

Quote from: Pat on March 12, 2021, 12:01:12 AM
One of the main reasons they were one trick ponies is because they didn't know each other existed. That's another serious limitation of the Americas -- it lacks a Silk Road equivalent, an east-west path along a very long stretch of the continent. The reason that's important is because migration of flora and fauna tends to be along bands of latitude where the climate and other conditions are roughly comparable, and that has a major influence on the spread of civilization because they're heavily dependent on their domesticated animals and crops to support their populations and empires. That kind of interchange happened easily happened across Afroeurasia, but there's nothing equivalent in the Americas, which stretch north and south not east and west, narrow to a tiny bottleneck in the middle, and have massive natural barriers. The major pockets of early American civilization -- for instance the Inca in the south, the Aztecs in the middle, and the various nations in the north -- were never able to set up trade with each other, and didn't even seem to realize each other existed. It's amazing the civilizations in the Americas got as far as they did, because the biggest multiplier of learning and technology is interaction with more people, and they were stuck in tiny pockets.

I largely agree. The interchange between civilizations is vital to developing innovations.

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 11:53:37 AM
I largely agree. The interchange between civilizations is vital to developing innovations.

I also agree with Ghostmaker that draft animals were vital because they were labor multipliers. That could be worked around, sure, but it made it a lot harder. Same with crops. The various features of potatoes that TLS describes would make large empires harder to maintain, since the only crop in the Americas that had a high calorie density and was easy to tax collectors to find was corn, and when exactly did corn grow to reasonable size? Because it started as thumb-sized cobs that were useless for intensive agriculture. Eurasia by comparison had many grains, and they were domesticated and turned into useful forms much earlier. Ghostmaker's theory of several factors is essentially the Anna Karenina principle, named from Tolstoy's famous line: "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." The basic idea is that, for certain things, success requires a whole host of factors to go right, and if even one is missing the endeavor is doomed to failure. It may not be a perfect analogy to the development of civilization, but it's a good one. Afroeurasia had everything going for it, while the Americas lacked many. And while it didn't completely forestall the emergence of civilization, it definitely slowed it down.

Greetings!

Hmmm. I don't agree with the hypothesis that the America's lacked resources in which to support the growth and development of civilization. In past research that I have done in regards to life in pre-Columbus America and the early Colonial Period, numerous primary sources and testimony from journals, articles, interviews and such like, discuss the American rivers practically covered shore-to-shore with huge fish of every kind; the banks and estuaries off the north-eastern seaboard contained unimaginable numbers of Cod, numerous varieties of fish, as well as great whales. The amount and supplies of fish were so enormous as to cause wholesale revival of long-since depleted food industries throughout Europe. Historians and such have painted a picture of many of the great rivers in Europe at the time were sad, mud and sewage-choked arteries, having been severely depleted of their native fish populations.

Furthermore, the Americas--primarily relating to testimonies and descriptions of people in North America--had vast forests *filled* with every kind of game animal in enormous abundance--as well as later encountered ocean-like herds of buffalo and deer on the Great Plains. Long before encountering the Great Plains environment in a settler-manner, American Colonial fur trappers had developed and built an enormously profitable fur-trading empire which supplied Europe with eagerly-sought fine furs--which Europe had not experienced any such like for many long centuries. Then, there is the fact that the Cherokee, for example, had already developed abundant farming crops--which were *superior* in yield and quality to anything the neighboring white colonials were engaged in. (This is one of the deeper reasons for the United States animosity towards the Cherokee Nation, and the driving insistence from local Governors and common people alike, maintaining that the Cherokee Nation must be crushed, and driven out; This, of course led to the infamous "Trail of Tears" where the Cherokee tribes were marched from the Carolinas and parts of Georgia to live on wasteland reservations in the Oklahoma Territory. Scholars have noted that the Cherokee had long-since harnessed and developed the best, fertile land, and had developed superior agricultural techniques compared to the Europeans, and subsequently, Americans).

Beyond such resources of freshwater fish, ocean fish and whales, vast numbers of game animals and buffalo, enormous supply of animal furs, there were skies *filled* with clouds of game birds--again, absolutely unimaginable for people in Europe. There were plenty of crops not just in the Cherokee areas, but in many other regions as well. Scholars have noted how the Iroquois, and more than a few other tribes that also engaged in agriculture, did so with virtually endless provision of excellent crops, plentiful vegetables, and more. The Native Americans certainly did not lack for agricultural abundance. Oh, and besides all of those resources, we also know that the woo and timber logged in America also astounded Europe, revitalizing products and industries in Britain and other areas of Europe that had long since hacked down much of their own native European forests, and in addition to the overwhelming quantity and supply of wood to Europe, the age, strength, and quality of such woods and timber also surpassed anything the Europeans had encountered in many lifetimes.

I remember reading where the texts described what the early Europeans found in North America must have seemed like an unimaginable paradise on earth--an astounding, and seemingly endless provision of natural resources of every kind. Riches in gold, silver, and iron were not immediately discovered by early European settlers, and would take American settlers and explorers some time before those riches too, would be found in America. I recall several tangents of resource knowledge, not just from History books, but also from Geography Professors, Anthropologists, Geologists, and Oceanographers--some of these scholars had vast and particular knowledge of early Colonial, as well as Pre-Columbian Americas in regards to rivers, minerals and metals, forests and plant life, fish and animals, as well as a wide variety of agricultural traditions and techniques embraced by the Native American tribes.

So, I'm not buying the idea that the Americas didn't have the key natural resources to advance and grow civilization. The Americas had plentiful and staggering supply of natural resources, far beyond anything the Europeans ever dreamed of. The Native American tribes certainly did not have certain particular technological innovations--like the wheel, or gunpowder, nor did they have the same variety of domesticated animals, such as the noted horse, and pig. The Americas however, possessed a huge variety and vast supply of natural resources. Huge urban civilizations and empires didn't develop much in the Americas, but such failed to develop over the Americas as a whole for several reasons--but lack of natural resources, food, and such provision isn't one of them.

As to some of those "other" foundational reasons, some of which have been noted by Pundit and others, which are accurate. The lack of te horse severely reduced the capacity for long-range travel and exchange of ideas, as an overall dynamic. I think it must be acknowledged that the Native Americans most certainly had a different Pagan religion, but also a religion that simply did not emphasize the same things and value the same things, in the same manner or scope that Christianity did as it was established in Europe. The Native Americans for the most part--obviously, the Aztecs, Incas, amongst others--lived organized differently, but many of the tribes especially in North America, *liked* living the way they had been, for generations, forever. Their culture, their religion, in whatever ways, did not push them to expand, build, and somehow achieve more and more and more. One of the reasons materially which heavily shaped their native philosophy is they possessed vast abundance of everything they needed to be happy and prosperous--there was not an absence, or a condition of deprivation or limit that required them to somehow do whatever different. So, the Native American cultures embraced different philosophies, different priorities, and different ways of living than the Europeans. The Native Americans didn't need to live like the Europeans. They didn't need filthy cities, greedy merchants, and imperious nobles and kings telling them how to live. They didn't need the endless materialistic drive for more profits, for more of everything...because. The Native Americans created a society that was far less materialistic, and far more independent and self-contained than the European cultural model.

The Native Americans possessed a wide range of social and tribal models, styles of government and leadership, and their Native religion also influenced them deeply on different priorities. While such seems obvious, some of the seemingly subtle aspects have an enormous impact when coming into conflict with a civilization that is in the Renaissance Age, and on the cusp of the Industrial Age, when the Native Americans were essentially in a kind of Nomadic and Agricultural Age. It isn't simple to define them in general terms, because the environment and geography had such a huge impact on shaping the different Native societies. Certainly, there were huge differences between the tribal societies of North America, and the more state-level cultures that grew to develop in Central and South America. Even across the enormous expanse of North America, there were huge differences in cultures, economies, and ways of life. Many Native tribes were warlike savages, this is true. However, as a broad culture, their philosophy, economy, and social organization was distinctly different from the European model, and also of Asia and the Indian subcontinent. Exactly where does geography, animals, technology, time and space, culture, all combine to shape the dynamics of how a culture grow and develops is extremely broad. In shorthand, the Native American tribes could not change their culture in the face of onrushing opposition and war in a few centuries what Europe and Asia had been transitioning through over a period of roughly 1200 to 1500 years. It isn't pretty when a less technologically advanced culture gets invaded by a more technologically advanced culture. Diseases from Europe--which because of their isolation, caused by being separated by two vast oceans--made the Native American tribes more susceptible to diseases such as smallpox and more. That is merely a consequence of geographical and physiological isolation. Some scholars have maintained that from the time of Columbus to 1650 or so, 90% of the Native tribal populations had been wiped out by disease. I remember reading the commentary of a Spanish explorer that traveled from Florida to Mexico, traveling through entre Native villages, where hundreds and more people were all dead--from plagues that had already reached the tribes living in the interior and along his travel route, that had become exposed from Native traders and such that had already had contact with the Spanish, and unknowingly, going back to their tribal areas, or trekking off to bring the incredible news of strange visitors to other neighboring tribes.

People can engage in "What Ifs" all they like, but the conflict between Europe and the Native Americans was an enormous clash of civilizations in different stages of development. Such differences were vast, and encompassed everything from animals, social organization, religious values, individual identity, concepts of wealth, materialism, and land ownership and land usage, and so much more. It is a whole range of factors--not merely a single factor or aspect.

It should also be noted, politically and philosophically, the Founding Fathers in the United States and Americans in general, were significantly influenced politically, philosophically, and socially, through their ongoing contact and experience with the Native American tribes and Nations. The Iroquois, the Cherokee, and many others, were definitely not strangers to the concepts of Democracy, individualism, personal rights and freedoms, as well as tolerance and acceptance for differences, as well as an attitude which could be surprisingly embracing of the "foreigner" and offering acceptance to "The Stranger". Many Native Tribes had ancient traditions and customs which strictly limited the power and authority of any chieftains, elders, and so on, while also making strong provisions which honored individual rights, freedom, and identity. While ancient Greece and Rome rightfully have a foundational place in the philosophy of America and subsequent Western Civilization, as well as enormous foundational pillars of Christianity and also from Jewish traditions and culture, I would not casually dismiss the contributions and salient influence from the Americans exposure and experience with the Native Americans for four hundred and more years. While it is certainly true that the Native Americans did not have a Lao Zhu, or an Aristotle--that Western Europeans would recognize at any rate--they influenced Benjamin Franklin, amongst other dignitaries and leaders of the time--as well as countless influences through trading, intermarrying and having families, speaking with local captains, mayors, governors and town councils, as well as preachers and other clergy, in addition to traders, trappers, soldiers and explorers from all walks of life, from the early 1600's in the beginning of the colonies, throughout the centuries of dealing with each other in ways both large and small.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 08:06:53 PMHuge urban civilizations and empires didn't develop much in the Americas, but such failed to develop over the Americas as a whole for several reasons--but lack of natural resources, food, and such provision isn't one of them.

Maybe it wasn't lack of resources, maybe it was abundance of resources that held them back.

My theory of human development is that we're driven by our weaknesses. Because we lack fur, we had to figure out how to make shelter and clothing. Because our young can't take care of themselves until 12 or so, we had to co-operate as tribes. And so on.

If your area is rich in wild animals to hunt and berries to pick and all that, why would you bother creating agriculture? Grizzly Adams didn't plant crops. If your area is completely bleak, of course, then you also won't farm. So to get farmers, you need an area which is poor enough otherwise to make it worth the trouble, but rich enough that farming will work.

And then the farming - if hoeing with a stone hoe gets you twice the food you and your family need, why would you bother upgrading to bronze?

Just some thoughts.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2021, 08:28:18 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 08:06:53 PMHuge urban civilizations and empires didn't develop much in the Americas, but such failed to develop over the Americas as a whole for several reasons--but lack of natural resources, food, and such provision isn't one of them.

Maybe it wasn't lack of resources, maybe it was abundance of resources that held them back.

My theory of human development is that we're driven by our weaknesses. Because we lack fur, we had to figure out how to make shelter and clothing. Because our young can't take care of themselves until 12 or so, we had to co-operate as tribes. And so on.

If your area is rich in wild animals to hunt and berries to pick and all that, why would you bother creating agriculture? Grizzly Adams didn't plant crops. If your area is completely bleak, of course, then you also won't farm. So to get farmers, you need an area which is poor enough otherwise to make it worth the trouble, but rich enough that farming will work.

And then the farming - if hoeing with a stone hoe gets you twice the food you and your family need, why would you bother upgrading to bronze?

Just some thoughts.

Greetings!

Excellent points, Kyle! I agree. I think the whole *abundance of resources* was a huge factor in shaping how the Native cultures developed--and didn't develop, as you point out.

Very true. I remember reading a section where many American colonials were complaining that the "Indians wasted the land!" The Native tribes had all of these animals, all of this land, all of these resources--and were not doing a damned thing with much of any of them. The colonials however, desperately needed all of this. For social structure--the way Europeans build families, organize land, resources, inheritance--and growing from all that, how social hierarchies are organized, and how class, social status, and personal identities are all shaped and defined--all of that was TOTALLY different within Native American tribes. When asked, a Native Chieftain explained, "Why do we need to "Profit" like you do, and gain more? Every member of the tribe has plenty of clothes and furs, their own lodge, abundant food for everyone. Our wives and children are all happy, and grow strong. Why must we do more? Why must we abandon the traditions of our ancestors and live like the white man?" I'm paraphrasing, but various Native figures said these things, asked these questions--and the white people that interacted with them, well, none of them had a very satisfactory answer to anything the Natives said. In all honesty, as I've read or understood everything involved, the white colonials couldn't even comprehend the questions. Their identity, their economy, their society, their religion, their technology, their money, all of it--they simply could not comprehend a life that didn't include such things and concepts. For the Natives, they also could not comprehend the materialism, the social organization, that expected, and demanded always more, more of everything, for everyone, continuously. The whites also had a different kind of social and class structure, built on entirely different concepts and priorities. The Natives were not all "Kum By Yah" peaceful, and stupid, but they did not have the same kind of materialistic based culture that the whites possessed. Natives essentially were equal, with very basic social hierarchies based on skill, knowledge, spirituality, or tradition, though not really based on materialistic conditions or dynamics. You basically had the chieftain, a group of elders, a group of shamans, and then everyone else. The degrees of difference within the social strata amongst Native cultures were not as vast as the differences and distinctions within European social structures. These cultural differences also would have profound and deep influence on relations between white Europeans and Natives, because such concepts form the "furniture" of their cultural reference, of how they view and define reality. Huge differences, unfortunately, and they could not be overcome easily or quickly.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 08:06:53 PM
Hmmm. I don't agree with the hypothesis that the America's lacked resources in which to support the growth and development of civilization. \

That's not the argument anyone seems to be making, though. It's not about a lack of a general category of things called "resources". No, it's that there appear to be a number of specific factors that all have to be present before a highly advanced civilization will emerge. You can have all the resources you need in other categories, but if you're missing one of the key ones, in a sufficient quantity, it just won't happen. My addendum is that these key factors don't seem be as binary as that suggests, but they do seem to have a dramatic effect on the rate at which those civilizations will emerge.

The Americas had vast resources, which as Kyle pointed out could have been a negative. Agriculture allows much higher population densities, but the first wave of agriculture tends to lower living conditions. Why would people who live lives of abundance and plenty give that up for some hypothetical benefit they probably couldn't even conceive in, in future generations? But while the Americas did have many resources, they lacked key ones. For instance, domesticated animals. They lacked goat, pigs, sheep, chickens, horses, cattle, yaks, camels, and more. Llama aren't really a replacement, meaning they had to rely on human muscles for clearing rocks from fields, plowing low qualify land, transport and trade, and more. The Americas also lack all the high calorie grains of Afroeurasia, like barley, wheat, rice, and on and on. All they had was maize, and that took a very long time before it was bred into a form that was highly productive. They did have other alternatives like potatoes, but as we noted those might discourage rather than encourage empires. Seasonal grains that require communal effort and are easy to find and tax force high levels of cooperation and lead to more complex social and political structures. Other examples are the lack of east-west routes, which make trade and expansion difficult, and geographical bottlenecks or barriers like the Panama isthmus, the Rocky Mountains, and the deserts of the American SW which do the same. The pockets of civilization that emerged were thus isolated, and lacked the feedback loop of interaction with other peoples that seems to drive a lot of human innovation.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 12, 2021, 08:28:18 PM
Maybe it wasn't lack of resources, maybe it was abundance of resources that held them back.

My theory of human development is that we're driven by our weaknesses. Because we lack fur, we had to figure out how to make shelter and clothing. Because our young can't take care of themselves until 12 or so, we had to co-operate as tribes. And so on.

If your area is rich in wild animals to hunt and berries to pick and all that, why would you bother creating agriculture? Grizzly Adams didn't plant crops. If your area is completely bleak, of course, then you also won't farm. So to get farmers, you need an area which is poor enough otherwise to make it worth the trouble, but rich enough that farming will work.

And then the farming - if hoeing with a stone hoe gets you twice the food you and your family need, why would you bother upgrading to bronze?

Just some thoughts.

There was actually a documentary I watched recently proposing pretty much the same theory; among other things when noting where civilizations evolved they noted that, in general, they occurred most often in slightly sub-optimal conditions where actual labor would be needed to produce sufficient food, but not so suboptimal that the labor would threaten your health... the most common trends were subpar rainfall (requiring irrigation) and temperatures cool enough that you wouldn't overheat while laboring.

So yes, an overabundance of easy to acquire food does actually hinder development; the Native Americans didn't need advanced farming techniques or metal tools to acquire all the resources they needed to survive... so they never developed them.

There's an interesting book The Decadent Society which essentially says the technological and economic progress in the West has plateaued. I'd suggest that we're at a level of prosperity where we don't really have a drive to come up with anything more. The prosperity of the 1950s and 60s was probably enough to allow for decadent contentment, but the hardship of the 1930s and 40s was fresh in people's minds and probably drove them. But by the 1980s they were retired or dead, and the Western world was being run by people who had only ever known peace and prosperity.

In other words: we got fat.

I think this proposed game (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/avenmcconnaughey/fat-self-care-volume-1) is a very interesting demonstration of this:

QuoteFat Self Care is a solo journaling game where you play Rowan, a fat person, as they go through a day of fun and fulfilling activities. At each point during the day, you will have several choices of which activity you want to do next, and each activity will provide several questions for you to shape Rowan's inner life, relationships, and self-image. Each activity ends with two affirmations - reclaiming the word fat and giving you and Rowan a truth that is commonly denied to fat people.

In other words, you're roleplaying a person who is completely content as they are. You have no drive to change yourself, to build your career or relationships, and you are not suffering in any way whatsoever. A life with neither suffering nor ambition, in a world of "fun and fulfilling activities", is pretty much the definition of decadence.

Some suffering and privation is probably necessary to encourage technological and economic development - and social changes, too. For example, the massive loss of life of the Black Death led to positive social changes, as serfdom was reduced or ended, labourers could move where they liked and got paid more, and so on. I don't think it's a coincidence that the daughters of the women who worked in munitions factories during WWII ended up in second wave feminism.

Absent suffering and privation, people are content, and nothing changes. And some may even embrace this idle contentment. Fat Self Care is a celebration of decadence.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 08:06:53 PM
So, I'm not buying the idea that the Americas didn't have the key natural resources to advance and grow civilization. The Americas had plentiful and staggering supply of natural resources, far beyond anything the Europeans ever dreamed of. The Native American tribes certainly did not have certain particular technological innovations--like the wheel, or gunpowder, nor did they have the same variety of domesticated animals, such as the noted horse, and pig. The Americas however, possessed a huge variety and vast supply of natural resources. Huge urban civilizations and empires didn't develop much in the Americas, but such failed to develop over the Americas as a whole for several reasons--but lack of natural resources, food, and such provision isn't one of them.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 08:06:53 PM
Some scholars have maintained that from the time of Columbus to 1650 or so, 90% of the Native tribal populations had been wiped out by disease. I remember reading the commentary of a Spanish explorer that traveled from Florida to Mexico, traveling through entre Native villages, where hundreds and more people were all dead--from plagues that had already reached the tribes living in the interior and along his travel route, that had become exposed from Native traders and such that had already had contact with the Spanish, and unknowingly, going back to their tribal areas, or trekking off to bring the incredible news of strange visitors to other neighboring tribes.

SHARK, at points you acknowledge the diversity within the Americas, but this is a complete crock. The Americas are just as diverse with varying natural resources as Eurasia. Parts of the Americas are very inhospitable and it is a huge struggle to survive. Parts of them are rich in wildlife and edibles. But the same is true in Eurasia. England is an extremely fertile island. It used to be teeming with wildlife. It was only after the rise of civilization there as population grew so large that it became harder to hunt and gather.

The primary reason why the Americas seemed so full of wildlife and resources to the Europeans was precisely because of the second quoted part. If 90% of Europe were killed off, then a person who came there would be in awe of how many resources there were just sitting around unused.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 09:16:39 PM
The Natives were not all "Kum By Yah" peaceful, and stupid, but they did not have the same kind of materialistic based culture that the whites possessed. Natives essentially were equal, with very basic social hierarchies based on skill, knowledge, spirituality, or tradition, though not really based on materialistic conditions or dynamics. You basically had the chieftain, a group of elders, a group of shamans, and then everyone else. The degrees of difference within the social strata amongst Native cultures were not as vast as the differences and distinctions within European social structures. These cultural differences also would have profound and deep influence on relations between white Europeans and Natives, because such concepts form the "furniture" of their cultural reference, of how they view and define reality. Huge differences, unfortunately, and they could not be overcome easily or quickly.

I think you're drawing generalizations from a stereotype of the Northeast Woodlands, but it doesn't really fit more broadly. The Sapa Inca in his palace of gold in a city of tens of thousands was not "essentially equal" to his subjects, nor was he interested in a simple life without materialism. He was an immortal king who ruled an empire of millions.

Even within the Northeast, there was a lot of variation. Some were indeed simple folk who lived peacefully and equally -- but that's not different than going to a simple rural fishing village in Europe, where the people have lived out simple lives for generations. But that wasn't everyone. King Powhatan who allied with the Jamestown English was an aspiring ruler who made war on surrounding peoples to expand his territory by five times over his lifetime. The Haudenosaunee had been expanding eastward in wars over generations, ever since founding their confederacy circa 1400.

Maybe you didn't intend to imply this -- but there's a common stereotype that Native Americans were simple and static, always living the same way for centuries in peace until the Europeans came along. And that's completely wrong. There were empires rising and falling, and sweeping changes that happened over the centuries. Among other things, just as the Europeans were arriving, most nations were going through an enormous apocalypse as they were ravaged by disease - causing huge social upheaval. Many characterizations of Native Americans are like characterizing Europeans based on Mad Max. What the Europeans saw was often not the norm - it was a post-apocalyptic breakdown of society.

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 11:03:11 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 08:06:53 PM
So, I'm not buying the idea that the Americas didn't have the key natural resources to advance and grow civilization. The Americas had plentiful and staggering supply of natural resources, far beyond anything the Europeans ever dreamed of. The Native American tribes certainly did not have certain particular technological innovations--like the wheel, or gunpowder, nor did they have the same variety of domesticated animals, such as the noted horse, and pig. The Americas however, possessed a huge variety and vast supply of natural resources. Huge urban civilizations and empires didn't develop much in the Americas, but such failed to develop over the Americas as a whole for several reasons--but lack of natural resources, food, and such provision isn't one of them.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 08:06:53 PM
Some scholars have maintained that from the time of Columbus to 1650 or so, 90% of the Native tribal populations had been wiped out by disease. I remember reading the commentary of a Spanish explorer that traveled from Florida to Mexico, traveling through entre Native villages, where hundreds and more people were all dead--from plagues that had already reached the tribes living in the interior and along his travel route, that had become exposed from Native traders and such that had already had contact with the Spanish, and unknowingly, going back to their tribal areas, or trekking off to bring the incredible news of strange visitors to other neighboring tribes.

SHARK, at points you acknowledge the diversity within the Americas, but this is a complete crock. The Americas are just as diverse with varying natural resources as Eurasia. Parts of the Americas are very inhospitable and it is a huge struggle to survive. Parts of them are rich in wildlife and edibles. But the same is true in Eurasia. England is an extremely fertile island. It used to be teeming with wildlife. It was only after the rise of civilization there as population grew so large that it became harder to hunt and gather.

The primary reason why the Americas seemed so full of wildlife and resources to the Europeans was precisely because of the second quoted part. If 90% of Europe were killed off, then a person who came there would be in awe of how many resources there were just sitting around unused.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 09:16:39 PM
The Natives were not all "Kum By Yah" peaceful, and stupid, but they did not have the same kind of materialistic based culture that the whites possessed. Natives essentially were equal, with very basic social hierarchies based on skill, knowledge, spirituality, or tradition, though not really based on materialistic conditions or dynamics. You basically had the chieftain, a group of elders, a group of shamans, and then everyone else. The degrees of difference within the social strata amongst Native cultures were not as vast as the differences and distinctions within European social structures. These cultural differences also would have profound and deep influence on relations between white Europeans and Natives, because such concepts form the "furniture" of their cultural reference, of how they view and define reality. Huge differences, unfortunately, and they could not be overcome easily or quickly.

I think you're drawing generalizations from a stereotype of the Northeast Woodlands, but it doesn't really fit more broadly. The Sapa Inca in his palace of gold in a city of tens of thousands was not "essentially equal" to his subjects, nor was he interested in a simple life without materialism. He was an immortal king who ruled an empire of millions.

Even within the Northeast, there was a lot of variation. Some were indeed simple folk who lived peacefully and equally -- but that's not different than going to a simple rural fishing village in Europe, where the people have lived out simple lives for generations. But that wasn't everyone. King Powhatan who allied with the Jamestown English was an aspiring ruler who made war on surrounding peoples to expand his territory by five times over his lifetime. The Haudenosaunee had been expanding eastward in wars over generations, ever since founding their confederacy circa 1400.

Maybe you didn't intend to imply this -- but there's a common stereotype that Native Americans were simple and static, always living the same way for centuries in peace until the Europeans came along. And that's completely wrong. There were empires rising and falling, and sweeping changes that happened over the centuries. Among other things, just as the Europeans were arriving, most nations were going through an enormous apocalypse as they were ravaged by disease - causing huge social upheaval. Many characterizations of Native Americans are like characterizing Europeans based on Mad Max. What the Europeans saw was often not the norm - it was a post-apocalyptic breakdown of society.

Greetings!

WTF, Jhkim? No, Europe had *depleted* many of it's resources by the time the colonies were established in North America. Read more. Everything I spoke about is accurate, regarding the timber, fish, birds, and so on. Crock my ass.

And while the Natives suffered enormous casualties from disease--the point still remains that America possessed enormous and abundant natural resources. I'm not going to hunt down the quotes analyzing and describing the rivers full of fish, and how the huge stock of Cod off the Eastern coasts possessed fish and Cod and whales in unimaginable numbers which significantly impacted Europe. Same thing with timber, animals, the buffalo, and the fur industry.

I also never said that there *wasn't* any inhospitable land in North America. I did discuss the enormous abundance, fertility, and richness. You don't like it? Too bad. Read some primary sources like I have describing the wealth and animals and resources.

And again, I'm not "over generalizing'--I specifically said South fucking America was different.

And no, I'm not over simplifying North Eastern Woodland tribes, either. The Cherokee, the Nez Pierce, many tribes throughout the Pacific North West, among many others, were similar in their social and tribal structure. Beyond that, for some sake of brevity, I simplified, because I don't feel the need to have a huge detailed discussion of the social and political tribal structure of three or six different tribes.

And, I discussed the impact of European introduced diseases upon the Native tribes, in general.

What the fuck are you trying to create a debate on? You are fucking weak, and coming off as needlessly snarky and belligerent.

For some light reading, take a read of https://www.amazon.com/Stolen-Continents-World-Through-Indian/dp/0395659752
By Ronald Wright.

And no, I don't think I implied that Native Americans were "Static". The sources I have read though--many of them Primary Sources, describe a very different culture, a very different mind set towards people, government, economics, land management, and materialism in general. Somehow thinking that the Native Americans were just the same as the Europeans or Asians or whoever in their priorities, culture, and philosophy, is a crock of bullshit though. The Native Americans were distinctly different, that seems quite clear to me, even if such isn't clear for you, Jhkim. My commentary and discussion was aimed at highlighting some aspects of these differences, again, based on not something I just fucking made up or pulled out of my ass, but based on primary sources, as well as commentary by noted scholars that have expertise in the field.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Pat on March 12, 2021, 05:47:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 11:53:37 AM
I largely agree. The interchange between civilizations is vital to developing innovations.

I also agree with Ghostmaker that draft animals were vital because they were labor multipliers. That could be worked around, sure, but it made it a lot harder. Same with crops. The various features of potatoes that TLS describes would make large empires harder to maintain, since the only crop in the Americas that had a high calorie density and was easy to tax collectors to find was corn, and when exactly did corn grow to reasonable size? Because it started as thumb-sized cobs that were useless for intensive agriculture. Eurasia by comparison had many grains, and they were domesticated and turned into useful forms much earlier. Ghostmaker's theory of several factors is essentially the Anna Karenina principle, named from Tolstoy's famous line: "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." The basic idea is that, for certain things, success requires a whole host of factors to go right, and if even one is missing the endeavor is doomed to failure. It may not be a perfect analogy to the development of civilization, but it's a good one. Afroeurasia had everything going for it, while the Americas lacked many. And while it didn't completely forestall the emergence of civilization, it definitely slowed it down.

Bolding above is mine. I don't think we're disagreeing here. I had said that draft animals were not vital - but that doesn't mean that they didn't slow things down.

And I think it's a good point about how long corn had been domesticated. Corn had technically been domesticated for 9000 years, but it wasn't until 4000 years ago that it was fully domesticated. It took a long time to reach its current state, which isn't surprising given the original wild plant teosinte is so hugely different. Wheat was fully domesticated 10,000 years ago -- plus there was barley and some others. So in that sense, Eurasian culture had a 6000 year head start on the Americas.

I think some things really are *necessary* for advancement. We can see based on how some people are still in the hunter-gatherer stage even in 2021 (like the Sentinelese), that advancement doesn't always happen. But Native Americans were advancing. There were large empires with social and technological advancements. But the grain argument implies that the Aztecs were parallel to maybe the ancient Egyptians, and if they had been left alone, it would take six millenia for them to reach Eurasian levels of advancement.

Then again, if they got psychic superpowers from a purple alien asteroid strike, that could be sped up by a lot.  ;D

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 11:30:28 PM
WTF, Jhkim? No, Europe had *depleted* many of it's resources by the time the colonies were established in North America. Read more. Everything I spoke about is accurate, regarding the timber, fish, birds, and so on. Crock my ass.

And while the Natives suffered enormous casualties from disease--the point still remains that America possessed enormous and abundant natural resources. I'm not going to hunt down the quotes analyzing and describing the rivers full of fish, and how the huge stock of Cod off the Eastern coasts possessed fish and Cod and whales in unimaginable numbers which significantly impacted Europe. Same thing with timber, animals, the buffalo, and the fur industry.

I also never said that there *wasn't* any inhospitable land in North America. I did discuss the enormous abundance, fertility, and richness. You don't like it? Too bad. Read some primary sources like I have describing the wealth and animals and resources.

Sorry if that came across as hostile. I'll try to summarize my view.

1. Ten thousand years ago, both Eurasia and the Americas had rich natural resources such as fish, wild animals, and timber. Eurasia saw innovations like writing long before they depleted those natural resources. The depletion only happened late as populations rose in the settled fertile areas.

2. Therefore, I do not believe that the abundance of fish, wild animals, and timber are responsible for the slower pace of civilization building in the Americas.

3. Much of the abundance of fish, wild animals, and timber in North America during European colonization was because of the 90% die-off of Native Americans. If 90% of Europeans died off, then similar would have happened there. Much of the depleted fish, animals, and timber in Europe would replenish within a few generations, and a visitor would find European rivers rich in fish and plentiful animals.

4. What *was* different between the Americas and Eurasia ten thousand years ago was different flora and fauna available to utilize. Eurasia had wild ancestors of the dog, horse, cow, pig, and chicken - as well as wheat, barley, and other plants. The Americas had wild dogs and llamas, and the ancestors of maize and the potato. Maize was much more difficult to domesticate than wheat.

5. Further, the Americas also had a sharp north-south axis. While Eurasians quickly developed east-west trade along the Silk Road, the Americas had almost no trade between regions, and it took much longer for agriculture to spread because the crops had to adapt to a different latitude.

Quote from: SHARK on March 12, 2021, 11:30:28 PM
For some light reading, take a read of https://www.amazon.com/Stolen-Continents-World-Through-Indian/dp/0395659752
By Ronald Wright.

And no, I don't think I implied that Native Americans were "Static". The sources I have read though--many of them Primary Sources, describe a very different culture, a very different mind set towards people, government, economics, land management, and materialism in general. Somehow thinking that the Native Americans were just the same as the Europeans or Asians or whoever in their priorities, culture, and philosophy, is a crock of bullshit though. The Native Americans were distinctly different, that seems quite clear to me, even if such isn't clear for you, Jhkim. My commentary and discussion was aimed at highlighting some aspects of these differences, again, based on not something I just fucking made up or pulled out of my ass, but based on primary sources, as well as commentary by noted scholars that have expertise in the field.

Thank you for the reading material. I agree that there was a great difference in culture and philosophy. What I disagree about is the *reason* for that difference. As I said, I don't think it comes from abundant fish, wild animals, and timber.

I feel there would be relatively little difference in culture and philosophy between, for example, pre-Roman Picts from 200BC Britain and the Cherokee of 1500 -- this despite that the Picts had iron and the Cherokee did not. The change in European mindset came because of the exchanges going on for thousands of years along the Mediterranean, Middle East, and Asia.

Quote from: jhkim on March 13, 2021, 02:10:27 AM
4. What *was* different between the Americas and Eurasia ten thousand years ago was different flora and fauna available to utilize. Eurasia had wild ancestors of the dog, horse, cow, pig, and chicken - as well as wheat, barley, and other plants. The Americas had wild dogs and llamas, and the ancestors of maize and the potato. Maize was much more difficult to domesticate than wheat.

There were horses in the Americas when people arrived. They got eaten.

So why didn't the horses of Eurasia all get eaten? Palaeolithic vegans?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 13, 2021, 03:56:57 AM
So why didn't the horses of Eurasia all get eaten? Palaeolithic vegans?

Probably because they evolved with humanity.  The megafauna of the new world would have had no experience of or instinctive response to humans.

So I clicked the link to the MegaFatty RPG....wow, that's D6 SAN I'm not getting back.

As for the Alt-History Injuuuuuuuns in Spaaaaace RPG, I would have been more charitable about it 20 years when settings were created just because the authors thought the concept was cool. Two decades ago, this wouldn't have stank to the Happy Hunting Grounds of race grifters on parade. Of course, its 2021 so there's no question its a SJW jerk circle sold to usual cadre of self-hating virtue signalers. It's MYFAROG for the Woke Vargs.

Whatever. Hope they have fun scalping aliens.

As to why some civilizations rise, I have no idea which theory is correct. My focus is on why they fall...a topic I've been reading about for absolutely no reason at all.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 15, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
As to why some civilizations rise, I have no idea which theory is correct. My focus is on why they fall...a topic I've been reading about for absolutely no reason at all.

If you live in the Western world, why read about it?  Just look out your window and watch...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 12, 2021, 06:58:47 AM

Quote from: Brigman on March 12, 2021, 04:50:38 AM
Free speech doesn't mean tolerating or advocating hate speech

You don't know what that term means, apparently.  That's exactly what free speech means.  It's Pundit's place, so he can ban whoever he wants.  I certainly won't miss either of the two that were banned.  But free speech means defeating speech you don't like with more speech, not less.  But this is an RPG forum, so I can understand why he doesn't want racialist BS here, just because beating it back would take focus away from the purpose of this forum.  But, by definition, free speech means tolerating all speech.  So you are just wrong.

You're right.

This thread has veered off RPGs quite a bit, so just throwing this out there to maybe get it back on track: what are the actual requirements for considering a game an RPG? I don't think referee-less games qualify, not these fat-acceptance sorts of things, but I also have run dungeons crawls for myself using the tables in the DMG and that was playing an RPG as much as anything else. Is this one of those "I'll know it when I see it" sorts of classifications, or can we give some definitive requirements?

I'm fairly easy on this. "Fat Self Care" is definitely an rpg. It's just a shitty rpg.

I mean, it almost seems like a parody.  It may well be an RPG, but it isn't one that interests me.

In its decadent self-indulgence, it is at least cheerier than previous attempts at woke storygames, like We All Had Names (https://weallhadnames.wordpress.com). The obese fucker may have back and knee pain, sexual dysfunction, diabetes, heart disease, bowel cancer, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and indeterminate gender, but at least they're happy.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 15, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
So I clicked the link to the MegaFatty RPG....wow, that's D6 SAN I'm not getting back.

As for the Alt-History Injuuuuuuuns in Spaaaaace RPG, I would have been more charitable about it 20 years when settings were created just because the authors thought the concept was cool. Two decades ago, this wouldn't have stank to the Happy Hunting Grounds of race grifters on parade. Of course, its 2021 so there's no question its a SJW jerk circle sold to usual cadre of self-hating virtue signalers. It's MYFAROG for the Woke Vargs.

That's how I feel about a lot of things now. I see a "BIPOC" or "LGBTQIAWTF" person in media (including and especially RPGs) and I'm like "What woke garbage is going to be preached at me today?"

Quote from: Brad on March 15, 2021, 09:23:18 PM
This thread has veered off RPGs quite a bit, so just throwing this out there to maybe get it back on track: what are the actual requirements for considering a game an RPG? I don't think referee-less games qualify, not these fat-acceptance sorts of things, but I also have run dungeons crawls for myself using the tables in the DMG and that was playing an RPG as much as anything else. Is this one of those "I'll know it when I see it" sorts of classifications, or can we give some definitive requirements?

Taking a stab at it, these ideas are not refined-

1. Playing a character, usually different from yourself, but possibly very similar to yourself.
2. Making decisions for that character as if you were that character in that situation.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 15, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
It's MYFAROG for the Woke Vargs.

This is completely right. That's exactly what it is.

Myfarog presents a mythical setting not based on any actual history but on imaginary fantasies of the "primordial race history of the aryans" borrowed from the likes of Blavatsky, Steiner and the Thule Society. It presents a perfect utopia of a culture because it is "pure" (aryan) unsullied by the evil influences of lesser races. It mainly has you killing 'subhuman' enemies which are very VERY blatant analogies for blacks, middle-easterners and jews.

The only part of Coyote and Crow that remains to be seen is whether "white men" or blatant analogies for the same end up being the monsters you go kill (or whether the premise is even more sinister: they've simply been made extinct as the ultimate racist wish fulfilment).
In every other respect, its the same Racialist Fantasy as Myfarog. So is Swordsfall's game. All three were made by pathetic racial supremacists, just of different races.


Edit to Add: Bringing it back to the OP, Fat Self Care is another kind of 'utopia scenario' of wish fulfilment of course: of a morbidly obese person being able to think that nothing at all is their own responsibility.  That SOUNDS different from the other three, but at the most basic level it's not: that's why Myfarog and Coyote&Crow and Swordsfall's game are all three about: "its not our fault, it would all be nearly perfect if it wasn't for Jews/Palefaces/Whitey/Fat-Shamers!!"

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 17, 2021, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 15, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
It's MYFAROG for the Woke Vargs.

This is completely right. That's exactly what it is.

Myfarog presents a mythical setting not based on any actual history but on imaginary fantasies of the "primordial race history of the aryans" borrowed from the likes of Blavatsky, Steiner and the Thule Society. It presents a perfect utopia of a culture because it is "pure" (aryan) unsullied by the evil influences of lesser races. It mainly has you killing 'subhuman' enemies which are very VERY blatant analogies for blacks, middle-easterners and jews.

The only part of Coyote and Crow that remains to be seen is whether "white men" or blatant analogies for the same end up being the monsters you go kill (or whether the premise is even more sinister: they've simply been made extinct as the ultimate racist wish fulfilment).
In every other respect, its the same Racialist Fantasy as Myfarog. So is Swordsfall's game. All three were made by pathetic racial supremacists, just of different races.

Pundit, have you even bothered to read anything about Coyote & Crow? At least Chris24601 was explicit that he hadn't read the Kickstarter, and instead was just spouting off based on what he imagined it was like.

In Coyote & Crow, white people aren't monsters and haven't been made extinct. It's left unknown what is going on with them - the only established point is that they haven't contacted the Americas, which is the setting of the game. If individual GMs want to include white people in their game, it's up to them.

From reading both the C&C Kickstarter and Myfarog, I think your claim is totally baseless. White people simply aren't around in the setting  - that doesn't make it racist against white people. What you're doing is like people saying Middle Earth is racist for not having black people mixed into the Shire and Gondor.

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 05:26:53 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 17, 2021, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 15, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
It's MYFAROG for the Woke Vargs.

This is completely right. That's exactly what it is.

Myfarog presents a mythical setting not based on any actual history but on imaginary fantasies of the "primordial race history of the aryans" borrowed from the likes of Blavatsky, Steiner and the Thule Society. It presents a perfect utopia of a culture because it is "pure" (aryan) unsullied by the evil influences of lesser races. It mainly has you killing 'subhuman' enemies which are very VERY blatant analogies for blacks, middle-easterners and jews.

The only part of Coyote and Crow that remains to be seen is whether "white men" or blatant analogies for the same end up being the monsters you go kill (or whether the premise is even more sinister: they've simply been made extinct as the ultimate racist wish fulfilment).
In every other respect, its the same Racialist Fantasy as Myfarog. So is Swordsfall's game. All three were made by pathetic racial supremacists, just of different races.

Pundit, have you even bothered to read anything about Coyote & Crow? At least Chris24601 was explicit that he hadn't read the Kickstarter, and instead was just spouting off based on what he imagined it was like.

In Coyote & Crow, white people aren't monsters and haven't been made extinct. It's left unknown what is going on with them - the only established point is that they haven't contacted the Americas, which is the setting of the game. If individual GMs want to include white people in their game, it's up to them.

From reading both the C&C Kickstarter and Myfarog, I think your claim is totally baseless. White people simply aren't around in the setting  - that doesn't make it racist against white people. What you're doing is like people saying Middle Earth is racist for not having black people mixed into the Shire and Gondor.

For my part the setting seems fine, and indeed I would probably agree that comparatively there aren't many games with a Native American setting. I also personally think exploring what would happen in any setting if you removed a massive factor is interesting. 

There are also plenty of games which are very clear with which types of characters exist and which don't.  There aren't female spacemarines in Deathwatch for example.  Legend of the Five Rings more or less wrote the not-Europeans out of the game.

All fine. I wouldn't consider these games racist, sexist or whatever.

But as far as I can tell C&C is unique in that mechanically it appears that the game itself is explicitly, if not racist, then certinaly prejudicial.  This is to say that if you are of a particular race you will get preferential treatment in how the rules apply to you.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/posts/3126772

Specifically

"When it comes to the actual game, we address this concept head on in a few ways. First, we have pages at the start of the book that directly speak to non-Native players and Native players. We discuss how each group should approach the game and some obvious no-no's for non-Natives. But throughout we call attention to specific things where there might be a chance for any non-Natives to misstep or for Natives to add value. A perfect example of this is the Ceremony Skill. This is a fully functioning Skill on its own and is useful as is to anyone playing. But we also call this out as a point where Native players can speak with their Story Guide and work to create Specialized versions for the Skill that allows for different effects and parameters based on that particular Native's culture and traditions. In this scenario, non-Natives don't need to take any special actions. Just play the game as it's written, and you're fine".

That is more or less equivilent to providing different (presumably better) effects in Pendragon to the Love Country Passion if you are actually British.

I mean shit, even Racial Holy War didn't have the balls to do this.

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 07:26:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 05:26:53 PM
In Coyote & Crow, white people aren't monsters and haven't been made extinct. It's left unknown what is going on with them - the only established point is that they haven't contacted the Americas, which is the setting of the game. If individual GMs want to include white people in their game, it's up to them.

From reading both the C&C Kickstarter and Myfarog, I think your claim is totally baseless. White people simply aren't around in the setting  - that doesn't make it racist against white people. What you're doing is like people saying Middle Earth is racist for not having black people mixed into the Shire and Gondor.

For my part the setting seems fine, and indeed I would probably agree that comparatively there aren't many games with a Native American setting. I also personally think exploring what would happen in any setting if you removed a massive factor is interesting.

There are also plenty of games which are very clear with which types of characters exist and which don't.  There aren't female spacemarines in Deathwatch for example.  Legend of the Five Rings more or less wrote the not-Europeans out of the game.

Sure. And just to add, there aren't male PCs in Macho Women With Guns. Also, there aren't humans in the Elfquest RPG.

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 07:26:23 PM
But as far as I can tell C&C is unique in that mechanically it appears that the game itself is explicitly, if not racist, then certinaly prejudicial.  This is to say that if you are of a particular race you will get preferential treatment in how the rules apply to you.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/posts/3126772

QuoteA perfect example of this is the Ceremony Skill. This is a fully functioning Skill on its own and is useful as is to anyone playing. But we also call this out as a point where Native players can speak with their Story Guide and work to create Specialized versions for the Skill that allows for different effects and parameters based on that particular Native's culture and traditions. In this scenario, non-Natives don't need to take any special actions. Just play the game as it's written, and you're fine".

That is more or less equivilent to providing different (presumably better) effects in Pendragon to the Love Country Passion if you are actually British.

You're inserting in "preferential" and "presumably better" here -- but that's not said in the text you quote. As I read it, the point is that the authors have deliberately fictional tribes and beliefs here -- and they suggest that a native player can substitute in their own real-world beliefs if they want.

I think the equivalent in Pendragon would be -- The book suggests that if a player is a real-world pagan, then they could work out with the GM a different set of Passions to represent their pagan virtues rather than the generic Christian and pagan virtues in the game.

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 05:26:53 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 17, 2021, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 15, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
It's MYFAROG for the Woke Vargs.

This is completely right. That's exactly what it is.

Myfarog presents a mythical setting not based on any actual history but on imaginary fantasies of the "primordial race history of the aryans" borrowed from the likes of Blavatsky, Steiner and the Thule Society. It presents a perfect utopia of a culture because it is "pure" (aryan) unsullied by the evil influences of lesser races. It mainly has you killing 'subhuman' enemies which are very VERY blatant analogies for blacks, middle-easterners and jews.

The only part of Coyote and Crow that remains to be seen is whether "white men" or blatant analogies for the same end up being the monsters you go kill (or whether the premise is even more sinister: they've simply been made extinct as the ultimate racist wish fulfilment).
In every other respect, its the same Racialist Fantasy as Myfarog. So is Swordsfall's game. All three were made by pathetic racial supremacists, just of different races.

Pundit, have you even bothered to read anything about Coyote & Crow? At least Chris24601 was explicit that he hadn't read the Kickstarter, and instead was just spouting off based on what he imagined it was like.

In Coyote & Crow, white people aren't monsters and haven't been made extinct. It's left unknown what is going on with them - the only established point is that they haven't contacted the Americas, which is the setting of the game. If individual GMs want to include white people in their game, it's up to them.

From reading both the C&C Kickstarter and Myfarog, I think your claim is totally baseless. White people simply aren't around in the setting  - that doesn't make it racist against white people. What you're doing is like people saying Middle Earth is racist for not having black people mixed into the Shire and Gondor.

It's like that except that Middle Earth is a make-believe place, while Coyote & Crow is supposed to be 20th Century alt-history earth where the native americans have developed into Superscience Indigenous Wakanda while the white people, if still alive at all, can't cross an ocean.
That's certainly wish-fulfillment, like I said.

It'd say its mostly just a derivative production and try not to read much past that till given reason to think otherwise. And so far seems not.

As said, it reads currently as bog standard for one of these "what if" sorts of settings where the "what if" happened to be culturally focused.

As noted in a much older thread there was a TV series once back in the 80s about a earth where the genders were switched and women were in charge. And its a recurring theme in comics and literature. What if Germany had won, what if Russia had won, what if etc.

The difference is prior to the current wave of antisocial injustice cultists these were usually not agenda platforms other than to maybe just toot ones horn about how great they think their homeland is. Or as a joke, ribbing their own country.

I'd lay good money on the odds being that all it was with C&R is someone saw Black Panther and thought "gosh we can profit off this if we reskin it to some other culture!". Business 101. If its popular, reskin it and sell it too!

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 08:39:15 PM

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 07:26:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 05:26:53 PM
In Coyote & Crow, white people aren't monsters and haven't been made extinct. It's left unknown what is going on with them - the only established point is that they haven't contacted the Americas, which is the setting of the game. If individual GMs want to include white people in their game, it's up to them.

From reading both the C&C Kickstarter and Myfarog, I think your claim is totally baseless. White people simply aren't around in the setting  - that doesn't make it racist against white people. What you're doing is like people saying Middle Earth is racist for not having black people mixed into the Shire and Gondor.

For my part the setting seems fine, and indeed I would probably agree that comparatively there aren't many games with a Native American setting. I also personally think exploring what would happen in any setting if you removed a massive factor is interesting.

There are also plenty of games which are very clear with which types of characters exist and which don't.  There aren't female spacemarines in Deathwatch for example.  Legend of the Five Rings more or less wrote the not-Europeans out of the game.

Sure. And just to add, there aren't male PCs in Macho Women With Guns. Also, there aren't humans in the Elfquest RPG.

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 07:26:23 PM
But as far as I can tell C&C is unique in that mechanically it appears that the game itself is explicitly, if not racist, then certinaly prejudicial.  This is to say that if you are of a particular race you will get preferential treatment in how the rules apply to you.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/posts/3126772

QuoteA perfect example of this is the Ceremony Skill. This is a fully functioning Skill on its own and is useful as is to anyone playing. But we also call this out as a point where Native players can speak with their Story Guide and work to create Specialized versions for the Skill that allows for different effects and parameters based on that particular Native's culture and traditions. In this scenario, non-Natives don't need to take any special actions. Just play the game as it's written, and you're fine".

That is more or less equivilent to providing different (presumably better) effects in Pendragon to the Love Country Passion if you are actually British.

You're inserting in "preferential" and "presumably better" here -- but that's not said in the text you quote. As I read it, the point is that the authors have deliberately fictional tribes and beliefs here -- and they suggest that a native player can substitute in their own real-world beliefs if they want.

I think the equivalent in Pendragon would be -- The book suggests that if a player is a real-world pagan, then they could work out with the GM a different set of Passions to represent their pagan virtues rather than the generic Christian and pagan virtues in the game.

I agree it is not directly stated the differences would be preferential (which is why I said presumably better) so until the book comes out, we are all speculating.  But equally your reading that it just about the beliefs of a character is also not what is said.  The sentence is specifically about games rules; effects and parameters and follows a comparison with how a non-Native would use ceremony skill.

But really that's not the point I am making. The point is that the idea that the rules of the game require a specific identity in the real world (Native, Christian, Pagan whatever) to access a mechanic or background (or just GM time which is a valuable resource in itself) just seems completely off to me.  In this case it seems pushing towards racism.  But more broadly it also seems inimical to the spirit of what rpging is about. 

And to speak to your example in Pendragon: 

The book suggests that if a player is a real-world pagan, then they could work out with the GM a different set of Passions to represent their pagan virtues rather than the generic Christian and pagan virtues in the game.

This is fine.  What is not fine is if a GM is telling a player who was not a pagan but playing one in the game that they can't have the same Passions as their fellow PC because they are an atheist or a Mormon or whatever in real life.  And the rule book supports this.

Ironically, it's actually not that far from what the moral panic crowd of the 80s was worrying would happen if you played D&D i.e., you can't play a wizard in the game unless you practice dark magic in real life.

I think it's a fair point that ultimately this is speculation so we'll need to wait and see how the rules are presented but I am definitely raising an eyebrow at this stage.




 

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 07:26:23 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 05:26:53 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 17, 2021, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 15, 2021, 12:06:42 AM
It's MYFAROG for the Woke Vargs.

This is completely right. That's exactly what it is.

Myfarog presents a mythical setting not based on any actual history but on imaginary fantasies of the "primordial race history of the aryans" borrowed from the likes of Blavatsky, Steiner and the Thule Society. It presents a perfect utopia of a culture because it is "pure" (aryan) unsullied by the evil influences of lesser races. It mainly has you killing 'subhuman' enemies which are very VERY blatant analogies for blacks, middle-easterners and jews.

The only part of Coyote and Crow that remains to be seen is whether "white men" or blatant analogies for the same end up being the monsters you go kill (or whether the premise is even more sinister: they've simply been made extinct as the ultimate racist wish fulfilment).
In every other respect, its the same Racialist Fantasy as Myfarog. So is Swordsfall's game. All three were made by pathetic racial supremacists, just of different races.

Pundit, have you even bothered to read anything about Coyote & Crow? At least Chris24601 was explicit that he hadn't read the Kickstarter, and instead was just spouting off based on what he imagined it was like.

In Coyote & Crow, white people aren't monsters and haven't been made extinct. It's left unknown what is going on with them - the only established point is that they haven't contacted the Americas, which is the setting of the game. If individual GMs want to include white people in their game, it's up to them.

From reading both the C&C Kickstarter and Myfarog, I think your claim is totally baseless. White people simply aren't around in the setting  - that doesn't make it racist against white people. What you're doing is like people saying Middle Earth is racist for not having black people mixed into the Shire and Gondor.

For my part the setting seems fine, and indeed I would probably agree that comparatively there aren't many games with a Native American setting. I also personally think exploring what would happen in any setting if you removed a massive factor is interesting. 

There are also plenty of games which are very clear with which types of characters exist and which don't.  There aren't female spacemarines in Deathwatch for example.  Legend of the Five Rings more or less wrote the not-Europeans out of the game.

All fine. I wouldn't consider these games racist, sexist or whatever.

But as far as I can tell C&C is unique in that mechanically it appears that the game itself is explicitly, if not racist, then certinaly prejudicial.  This is to say that if you are of a particular race you will get preferential treatment in how the rules apply to you.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/posts/3126772

Specifically

"When it comes to the actual game, we address this concept head on in a few ways. First, we have pages at the start of the book that directly speak to non-Native players and Native players. We discuss how each group should approach the game and some obvious no-no's for non-Natives. But throughout we call attention to specific things where there might be a chance for any non-Natives to misstep or for Natives to add value. A perfect example of this is the Ceremony Skill. This is a fully functioning Skill on its own and is useful as is to anyone playing. But we also call this out as a point where Native players can speak with their Story Guide and work to create Specialized versions for the Skill that allows for different effects and parameters based on that particular Native's culture and traditions. In this scenario, non-Natives don't need to take any special actions. Just play the game as it's written, and you're fine".

That is more or less equivilent to providing different (presumably better) effects in Pendragon to the Love Country Passion if you are actually British.

I mean shit, even Racial Holy War didn't have the balls to do this.

Greetings!

This terrible game sounds like more woke, anti-White racist bullshit. More SJW circle-jerking.

I hope they choke and burn.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 17, 2021, 10:43:56 PM
This terrible game sounds like more woke, anti-White racist bullshit. More SJW circle-jerking.

That would be because it is. As I could predict without even visiting the page itself because Wokists are incapable of producing anything but woke garbage.

The funniest part? I have an actual member of the Lakota in my gaming circles and they'd find this game ridiculously offensive... i.e. they're being portrayed as magic noble savages vs. the people they actually were.*

The woke are the most racist people around. They are literally incapable of seeing people, just intersections of race, sex, wealth, etc.

It's like they've been conditioned into a state of borderline personality disorder. You either must agree fully with every insane thing they spew or you are the enemy who must be silenced and destroyed.

* You know what sort of Native-themed rpg they would find appealing? One akin to a Robin Hood (i.e. a non-magic setting) only set in Eastern North America c. AD 1200 and presenting pre-Colonial tribal life realistically.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2021, 09:29:38 AM

Quote from: SHARK on March 17, 2021, 10:43:56 PM
This terrible game sounds like more woke, anti-White racist bullshit. More SJW circle-jerking.

The woke are the most racist people around. They are literally incapable of seeing people, just intersections of race, sex, wealth, etc.

The really crazy thing is that a lot of them openly admit this. How many white SJWs have you heard say variations "I am coming to terms with my own implicit/unconscious/institutional racism?"

The real issue is that they are trying to gaslight everyone else into agreeing that they are also racist.

Damn it accidental double post. How do you delete a post?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 17, 2021, 08:44:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 05:26:53 PM
In Coyote & Crow, white people aren't monsters and haven't been made extinct. It's left unknown what is going on with them - the only established point is that they haven't contacted the Americas, which is the setting of the game. If individual GMs want to include white people in their game, it's up to them.

From reading both the C&C Kickstarter and Myfarog, I think your claim is totally baseless. White people simply aren't around in the setting  - that doesn't make it racist against white people. What you're doing is like people saying Middle Earth is racist for not having black people mixed into the Shire and Gondor.

It's like that except that Middle Earth is a make-believe place, while Coyote & Crow is supposed to be 20th Century alt-history earth where the native americans have developed into Superscience Indigenous Wakanda while the white people, if still alive at all, can't cross an ocean.
That's certainly wish-fulfillment, like I said.

I don't disagree that it's wish-fulfillment. A lot of fantasy is wish-fulfillment of one sort or another, just like Tolkien's Shire and Ents are his forms of wish-fulfillment, and Narnia with magic Aslan is Lewis' wish fulfillment.

What I disagree with is that it's anti-white racism. You claim is that since white people don't appear in the game, that therefore it is anti-white racism. I claim that is bullshit.

Quote from: Omega on March 17, 2021, 09:09:17 PM
I'd lay good money on the odds being that all it was with C&R is someone saw Black Panther and thought "gosh we can profit off this if we reskin it to some other culture!". Business 101. If its popular, reskin it and sell it too!

I'd agree that this is true - but that's also the basis of hordes of genre fiction and RPGs. The OSR is all about taking old-school D&D and reskinning it in different ways to make a profit. Pundit's "Lords of Olympus" game is explicitly about taking Amber Diceless and reskinning it to Greek gods. Coyote & Crow isn't an exact parallel to Wakanda - but sure, it shares some themes of an indigenous high-tech society based on a weird-science impact from outer space (vibranium vs awis).

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 09:14:09 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 17, 2021, 08:39:15 PM
As I read it, the point is that the authors have deliberately fictional tribes and beliefs here -- and they suggest that a native player can substitute in their own real-world beliefs if they want.

I think the equivalent in Pendragon would be -- The book suggests that if a player is a real-world pagan, then they could work out with the GM a different set of Passions to represent their pagan virtues rather than the generic Christian and pagan virtues in the game.

This is fine.  What is not fine is if a GM is telling a player who was not a pagan but playing one in the game that they can't have the same Passions as their fellow PC because they are an atheist or a Mormon or whatever in real life.  And the rule book supports this.

Ironically, it's actually not that far from what the moral panic crowd of the 80s was worrying would happen if you played D&D i.e., you can't play a wizard in the game unless you practice dark magic in real life.

And to complete the parallel, you're stoking outrage and moral panic about it. This is a two-sentence piece of advice in a game that won't have any effect on the vast majority of groups. It seems possible that even most Native American players wouldn't use this. If someone wants to role-play their own real-world religion in a game that doesn't include it, then honestly, that does feel different to me than a random non-believer asking the same thing.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2021, 09:29:38 AM
That would be because it is. As I could predict without even visiting the page itself because Wokists are incapable of producing anything but woke garbage.

The funniest part? I have an actual member of the Lakota in my gaming circles and they'd find this game ridiculously offensive... i.e. they're being portrayed as magic noble savages vs. the people they actually were.*

So not only can you judge the game by not reading anything about it, you also claim to speak for your Lakota player without speaking to them - and neither of you having read anything about the game?!?

This is *exactly* like the moral panic of the 1980s. I remember going to see The Last Temptation of Christ as a teenager with members of my church, and we walked past people who were picketing the theater with pamphlet like "We haven't seen this movie, but it sounds blasphemous to us so we're outraged."

I haven't seen anything in Coyote & Crow that suggests portraying Native Americans as magic noble savages. I'd debate you about that - except that I know it's not based on anything you've actually read, since you haven't read even the game preview.

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 01:58:26 PMWhat I disagree with is that it's anti-white racism. You claim is that since white people don't appear in the game, that therefore it is anti-white racism. I claim that is bullshit.

I will actually agree with that. The core conceit is very much just a gonzo idea akin to 'Dracula in Space!', but I personally believe it's a sort of wish fulfillment that comes from a very bitter and misguided place.

'If only dem white folks hadn't come X would be a utopia!' is very different then say 'I wish I was muscular and was a hero rescuing dames from dictators' of something like John Carter of Mars.

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 01:58:26 PM
So not only can you judge the game by not reading anything about it, you also claim to speak for your Lakota player without speaking to them - and neither of you having read anything about the game?!?

Who said I didn't speak to them? I'm godfather to her daughter and helped bring her whole family into my Church. She's also more conservative than I am and has zero tolerance for woke or even woke-adjacent nonsense precisely because of the way so many Wokists fetishize an image of her people and culture rather than actually bothering to actually get to know them as people.

Yet you presume you know my friend and what she thinks better than I do because you know their racial background?

You are behaving like exactly the sort of Wokist garbage my friend would kick the shit out of if you pulled your self-righteous moralizing about Native Americans in front of her.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2021, 03:23:58 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 01:58:26 PM
So not only can you judge the game by not reading anything about it, you also claim to speak for your Lakota player without speaking to them - and neither of you having read anything about the game?!?

Who said I didn't speak to them?

What you said was this: "I have an actual member of the Lakota in my gaming circles and they'd find this game ridiculously offensive... i.e. they're being portrayed as magic noble savages vs. the people they actually were.". Your wording was "they'd" -- i.e. "they would find it offensive" as opposed to "they do find it offensive".

So to rephrase this: What did they actually read or hear about the game, and what did they say about it?

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2021, 03:23:58 PM
Yet you presume you know my friend and what she thinks better than I do because you know their racial background?

You are behaving like exactly the sort of Wokist garbage my friend would kick the shit out of if you pulled your self-righteous moralizing about Native Americans in front of her.

Again, you're speaking here about what your friend "would" do. I don't give a shit about either what you think she thinks, or about what I think she thinks. People should speak for themselves.

If she has read the actual game preview and has an opinion, or just has an opinion in general, I'd welcome hearing about it.

But what anyone thinks she'd think is just a projection.

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
So to rephrase this: What did they actually read or hear about the game, and what did they say about it?

- That the dude should stop appropriating non-Cherokeee music for his stupid kickstarter video (the author is Cherokee).

- That the art is the same "faggy hipster" style as every woke project they've ever seen.

- That Native American-themed magitech looks like the guy ripped off Black Panther (and wonders how they got all that metal given the land was sacred and mining taboo).

- That the game seems to think all the Native Americans had the exact same cultural and spiritual practices despite consisting of hundreds of tribes covering hundreds of thousands of square miles.

- That with its focus on supernatural threats based off Native American lore that will inevitably have a magic system that fetishizes their spirituality.

- She wonders if they're going to gloss over all the Pre-Columbian slavery the Cherokee engaged in (noting that the author is Cherokee) or if whatever kept Europeans from coming to the Americas magically instilled the Christian values that actually ended the practice into the Native Americans.

- She wants to know how exactly technology advanced so far given the endemic inter-tribal warfare and revenge raids they all engaged in.

- They thought the promo description seems to act like tribal affiliations work like Vampire the Masquerade clans.

- And (jokingly) that they'd like Connor Alexander's stupid topknot as a scalp for her wall (note: she does not have a wall for scalps).

Good enough for you, cupcake?

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 03:48:56 PMAgain, you're speaking here about what your friend "would" do.

That's because you're not actually present for her to do it right this second. Proper grammar requires use of future tense for a hypothetical future event.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 18, 2021, 04:40:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 03:48:56 PM
So to rephrase this: What did they actually read or hear about the game, and what did they say about it?

- That the dude should stop appropriating non-Cherokeee music for his stupid kickstarter video (the author is Cherokee).

- That the art is the same "faggy hipster" style as every woke project they've ever seen.

- That Native American-themed magitech looks like the guy ripped off Black Panther (and wonders how they got all that metal given the land was sacred and mining taboo).

- That the game seems to think all the Native Americans had the exact same cultural and spiritual practices despite consisting of hundreds of tribes covering hundreds of thousands of square miles.

- That with its focus on supernatural threats based off Native American lore that will inevitably have a magic system that fetishizes their spirituality.

- She wonders if they're going to gloss over all the Pre-Columbian slavery the Cherokee engaged in (noting that the author is Cherokee) or if whatever kept Europeans from coming to the Americas magically instilled the Christian values that actually ended the practice into the Native Americans.

- She wants to know how exactly technology advanced so far given the endemic inter-tribal warfare and revenge raids they all engaged in.

- They thought the promo description seems to act like tribal affiliations work like Vampire the Masquerade clans.

- And (jokingly) that they'd like Connor Alexander's stupid topknot as a scalp for her wall (note: she does not have a wall for scalps).

Good enough for you, cupcake?

Thanks, this at least shows that unlike you, they've read at least some of the material.

1) The preview doesn't say much about the societies of the different regions, but I don't see anything that implies that all the societies are the same.

2) I don't see any mention of a magic system at all. My understanding is that the supernatural will be optional in the game, not a necessary focus. From the designer Q&A:

QuoteThe other part of the supernatural comes from real Native legends along with ones of our own creation. And those are in the book, but they only exist if the Story Guide chooses to include them. They aren't canon in every campaign. Is the Stone Man real? Or is that just a story? A rumor? Story Guides can decide.

3) The game is set around the year 2100. I doubt it will cover pre-Columbian Cherokee slavery any more than Shadowrun or Gamma World covers 1600s era European slavery.

4) There's no mention of tribal affiliation that I see in the description of character creation. There are six Archetypes (like Warrior, Tinkerer, and Scout); and fifteen Paths (like Beaver, Stag, and Spider) that define superhuman powers caused by the Awis effects. Neither of these are associated with tribe as far as I can tell.

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 01:58:26 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 17, 2021, 09:09:17 PM
I'd lay good money on the odds being that all it was with C&R is someone saw Black Panther and thought "gosh we can profit off this if we reskin it to some other culture!". Business 101. If its popular, reskin it and sell it too!

I'd agree that this is true - but that's also the basis of hordes of genre fiction and RPGs. The OSR is all about taking old-school D&D and reskinning it in different ways to make a profit. Pundit's "Lords of Olympus" game is explicitly about taking Amber Diceless and reskinning it to Greek gods. Coyote & Crow isn't an exact parallel to Wakanda - but sure, it shares some themes of an indigenous high-tech society based on a weird-science impact from outer space (vibranium vs awis).

That is what I pointed out earlier in the thread and some examples like Captain Canuck which has Canada as a world government, or any number of books, comics, etc that have touched on this one way or another. Marvel has done at least one where Egypt never declined and became a world power. War Gods of Aegyptus seems to be set in a world where Egypt is the only civilization. Russia used to crank these out fairly regularly.

And that is not even touching on reskins of other product. Or ones merely inspired by. Usually the closer the new one is to the old the less likely its inspired and more like copying.

These sorts of "what if" settings are really common all on their own.

I bet the authour is a furry, too. This is why I don't believe in tolerance.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-19/furry-world-helps-people-to-be-themselves-new-research/13250090

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 06:24:18 PM
Thanks, this at least shows that unlike you, they've read at least some of the material.

And yet we both agreed it is absolutely going to be woke garbage... I just didn't have to waste my time confirming what is blatantly obvious from who was touting it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 18, 2021, 08:34:34 PM
I bet the authour is a furry, too. This is why I don't believe in tolerance.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-19/furry-world-helps-people-to-be-themselves-new-research/13250090

There is a picture of her in the article wearing a t-shirt that says 'furrywoke' on it... ;D

Thanks for the laugh, that article was hilarious.

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 06:24:18 PM


3) The game is set around the year 2100. I doubt it will cover pre-Columbian Cherokee slavery any more than Shadowrun or Gamma World covers 1600s era European slavery.

Without the West, why would they end slavery? No other civilization ever fully ended slavery. And what great change in their religious structure would make the Americas slavery-free in that world? What could you make to explain the turn against slavery, which wouldn't look like a drag-show version Christianity+Enlightenment-Masonic-Universalism?

Or are they just going to pretend that North America had no slaves before the Evil White Men came? Maybe no human sacrifice either?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2021, 11:45:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 06:24:18 PM


3) The game is set around the year 2100. I doubt it will cover pre-Columbian Cherokee slavery any more than Shadowrun or Gamma World covers 1600s era European slavery.

Without the West, why would they end slavery? No other civilization ever fully ended slavery. And what great change in their religious structure would make the Americas slavery-free in that world? What could you make to explain the turn against slavery, which wouldn't look like a drag-show version Christianity+Enlightenment-Masonic-Universalism?

Or are they just going to pretend that North America had no slaves before the Evil White Men came? Maybe no human sacrifice either?

Of course they are. Eliminate the "source of all evil", and you've found Yogi Bear's Perfect Place.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2021, 11:45:14 AM
Without the West, why would they end slavery? No other civilization ever fully ended slavery. And what great change in their religious structure would make the Americas slavery-free in that world? What could you make to explain the turn against slavery, which wouldn't look like a drag-show version Christianity+Enlightenment-Masonic-Universalism?

Or are they just going to pretend that North America had no slaves before the Evil White Men came? Maybe no human sacrifice either?

And let's not leave out the constant state of low-level war with their neighbors that would make the Battletech Successor States proud. As my Blackfoot friend stated; some other tribes weren't even considered people; they were vermin.

While the diseases didn't help, what really put the nail in the coffin for the Native Americans was that if you wanted to push out one tribe, you just needed to make a deal with a rival tribe because they had zero loyalty to their rival vs. the colonial powers.

And because my friend knows how the Woke game is played; they wanted to know just how the Cherokee author thinks its okay to appropriate Lakota and First Nations cultural elements as his own, comparing it to a Spaniard claiming French wine and German sauerkraut as part of their heritage because they live on the same continent.

And the fact that this setting will almost certainly gloss over the slavery (including what in modern times would be sex slavery), human sacrifice, endemic tribal warfare and the glaring cultural divides between tribes is why my friend pretty much loathes projects like this... Native Americans are not seen as actual people by the Woke, they're magic fairies who would live in a perfect kumbaiya utopia if not for Western civilization showing up.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2021, 11:45:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 18, 2021, 06:24:18 PM
3) The game is set around the year 2100. I doubt it will cover pre-Columbian Cherokee slavery any more than Shadowrun or Gamma World covers 1600s era European slavery.

Without the West, why would they end slavery? No other civilization ever fully ended slavery. And what great change in their religious structure would make the Americas slavery-free in that world? What could you make to explain the turn against slavery, which wouldn't look like a drag-show version Christianity+Enlightenment-Masonic-Universalism?

Or are they just going to pretend that North America had no slaves before the Evil White Men came? Maybe no human sacrifice either?

I have no idea what the authors are going to do on this point. The previews are short, and very little of society is described. If I were doing a similar project, I can think of a number of possibilities.

1) One of the premises is psychic powers from the Awis event. It could be that telepaths become a greater influence on society, and telepaths are more empathetic to the suffering of others - because they have to see slaves as people just like them. Telepathy could not just jump-start understanding of psychology, it could also change social values to see all people as being potential equals.

2) The Awis event also created great natural disasters across the continents. It is relatively easy for the natural disaster to have the greatest effect on the concentrated agricultural slave-holding states like the Aztecs - and less on the more scattered states that depend more on hunting. As the major slave-holding states crumble, new states formed by ex-slaves could have opposed values. One also saw political and social upheaval, for example, in Europe after the Bubonic Plague when concentration of workers vastly decreased. In Coyote & Crow, I think the collapse of the old Aztecs could see the rise of new states - like the collapse of the Western Roman Empire saw a change in values in Europe.

3) In the Coyote & Crow setting, when some slaves get superhuman powers, it would drastically complicate keeping up the traditional divide of slave and free. Those with greater powers would tend to rise to greater influence. By disrupting the old traditions, it gives space for new philosophical divides - such as those driven by telepathy.

4) The powers would also naturally give rise to new religious movements. Particularly given superhuman powers, it's possible that a highly persuasive religious leader could arise among oppressed peoples with more egalitarian values (like Algonguian-speakers). There are more developed religions other than Christianity - like Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. I think a more developed Native American religion might take some inspiration from modern-day Native American religions (which have some Western influence) but also from pre-Christian Asian religions like Buddhism and Hinduism.

5) For effect on slavery, one can look at the incomplete non-Western antislavery movements. For example, Korea had an antislavery movement going back to the late 1700s. Partly this was from disruption in war and in advances in agriculture that made slaves less economical - combined with growing criticism of the ruling class. In Korea, the antislavery and liberal movement was tied to increase in the power of the king compared to nobles (yangban). Among Native Americans, this might show as a post-apocalyptic merging of more egalitarian Algonquian-speaking values with Haudenosaunee-like councils and federal political structure.


Of course, these are just options that I might do - and those can be combined in different ways.

Overall, I think particularly in a game with superhuman powers, it's easy to picture more advanced philosophies arising that aren't just variants of Christianity+Enlightenment-Masonic-Universalism. There could be science conducted more through a pursuit of personal psychic growth, for example -- rather than by experimentation and peer-reviewed publication. Depending on the specifics, telepathy could lead to horrible mind-control states like Traveller's Zhodani -- but it could also lead to a more enlightened recognition of universal humanity.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 01:28:51 PM
And because my friend knows how the Woke game is played; they wanted to know just how the Cherokee author thinks its okay to appropriate Lakota and First Nations cultural elements as his own, comparing it to a Spaniard claiming French wine and German sauerkraut as part of their heritage because they live on the same continent.

And the fact that this setting will almost certainly gloss over the slavery (including what in modern times would be sex slavery), human sacrifice, endemic tribal warfare and the glaring cultural divides between tribes is why my friend pretty much loathes projects like this... Native Americans are not seen as actual people by the Woke, they're magic fairies who would live in a perfect kumbaiya utopia if not for Western civilization showing up.

You're speaking about what the yet-unpublished game will be like as "fact", which doesn't fit the definition. As for how the game will be - maybe it'll suck. I don't know the author's work. I do think a lot of non-native people don't see Native Americans as actual people, but at best as mouthpieces to push their own politics - but that isn't restricted to the Woke.

To keep this on the RPG topic -- what are RPG treatments that handle Native Americans well, which might be a model?


Personally, I don't know of any that I'd really recommend. GURPS Aztecs is at least historically accurate, but it is hard to run adventures in. I'm intrigued by some of what I've seen from Totems of the Dead, but I've never played it. Both Shadowrun and Deadlands seem pretty heavily in the "noble savage" / "magic fairy" category of portrayal - literally with the Ghost Dance. Maztica is pretty involved, but I think suffers from not having a clear center. It's not historically accurate, but it's also not a recognizable fantasy genre. The adventures felt kind of flat to me.

Of these, only GURPS Aztecs is historically accurate - but really, I don't think historically accurate is very important per se. Most European-themed games aren't historically accurate, and gloss over a lot of the ugly realities of the times.

I've run a couple games featuring Native Americans, but rarely using published material. I had a long-running Runequest campaign that I called "Vikings & Skraelings" about alternate history Icelandic colonies in the New World. (ref) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/) More recently, I've run some adventures set in my son's Incan-inspired D&D5 setting.

Quote from: jhkim on March 19, 2021, 05:07:21 PM
You're speaking about what the yet-unpublished game will be like as "fact", which doesn't fit the definition.

If I hand you a sandwich that smells like dog feces, do you have to take a bite before you know it's filled with shit?

Everything I've seen posted by and about Connor "Topknot" Alexander is 100% Wokist victim mentality snowflake. He self-identifies as a Far Left Punk activist.

Here are some pull quotes straight from the SJW's mouth (and a few comments from me in bold)...

"In the gaming world we're dealing with a microcosm of what the rest of the nation is dealing with. That is, Natives in gaming are working in a space dominated by whites and white culture." - because the fact that you get all these free publicity interviews is proof that you are oppressed by the system; try endorsing the Roman Catholic position on sexuality on any public media outlet and see how fast you're perma-banned, then talk to me about cultural domination.

"I wanted to create a world that wasn't rooted in our real now, which can sometimes be really depressing, but a world that, while maybe not a utopia, at least offered a world where Natives were charting their own path and aren't living under this horrible trauma." - You hear that? Native Americans are traumatized by having a better standard of living than 95% of the planet and all those tax free casinos. It's HORRIBLE!!!

"We've created a d12 based system unique for this game." - not directly related to Wokism, but the only people I've ever seen try to develop d12 based games invariably seem to think they're sending some sort of message by using the "discriminated against" die... as if a chunk of plastic has feelings.

"One, the system needed to be Native built. We didn't want to build on the backs of others. It was important this be ours. Second, it's a system that we think helps tell stories rather than crunch numbers, which is at the heart of what we're trying to put out there. We want a system that encourages people to tell stories." - despite it probably having 10x the accessibility if you did so, you couldn't build it to be compatible with 5e because d20s are racist I guess? Likewise, sure sign of Wokist agenda in gaming is when their primary focus is to make sure the game is about creating stories.

In other words, C&C is utterly incapable of being anything other than a crap sandwich for the same reason that everything run by the SJWs turns into a crap sandwich.

You can go ahead and bite down to assure yourself... I'm good with using the unique SJW stench as my cue to not even touch the crap sandwich.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 01:28:51 PMAnd let's not leave out the constant state of low-level war with their neighbors that would make the Battletech Successor States proud. As my Blackfoot friend stated; some other tribes weren't even considered people; they were vermin.

While the diseases didn't help, what really put the nail in the coffin for the Native Americans was that if you wanted to push out one tribe, you just needed to make a deal with a rival tribe because they had zero loyalty to their rival vs. the colonial powers.

And because my friend knows how the Woke game is played; they wanted to know just how the Cherokee author thinks its okay to appropriate Lakota and First Nations cultural elements as his own, comparing it to a Spaniard claiming French wine and German sauerkraut as part of their heritage because they live on the same continent.

And the fact that this setting will almost certainly gloss over the slavery (including what in modern times would be sex slavery), human sacrifice, endemic tribal warfare and the glaring cultural divides between tribes is why my friend pretty much loathes projects like this... Native Americans are not seen as actual people by the Woke, they're magic fairies who would live in a perfect kumbaiya utopia if not for Western civilization showing up.

Pretty much what I've heard as well no matter where been and I used attend a con that happened to also co-incide with a bit NA gathering at the Thunderbird Hotel. Really NA culture mirrors that of other tribal cultures like that in the UK and related lands, Africa, and even Asia. Seems to be a recurring theme with tribal civilizations, especially the nomadic ones. But even some of the more settled ones were sniping at eachother.

One of the problems of settling and making a city is... it makes you an easy to find target and unless well defended. Thats that once someone decides you need to go... because.

As for the image of the magical native. Thats partially on them for fostering this image way back. Since then its swung back and fourth from complaining about it to demanding it be depicted. When not bitching about ANY representation at all. Theres a reason why there was a dearth of NA characters for spans in media. People got tired of it. And exact same thing with the handicapped. Someone bitches till people just say fuck it and you are not in hardly anything for another span.

But odds are high that each iterations had its share of white knights to "speak for you!" too.

We saw this back in the 90s with RPGs now and then. Just not as wide spread far as I ever saw.

Quote from: Omega on March 20, 2021, 06:11:16 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 01:28:51 PMAnd let's not leave out the constant state of low-level war with their neighbors that would make the Battletech Successor States proud. As my Blackfoot friend stated; some other tribes weren't even considered people; they were vermin.

While the diseases didn't help, what really put the nail in the coffin for the Native Americans was that if you wanted to push out one tribe, you just needed to make a deal with a rival tribe because they had zero loyalty to their rival vs. the colonial powers.

Pretty much what I've heard as well no matter where been and I used attend a con that happened to also co-incide with a bit NA gathering at the Thunderbird Hotel. Really NA culture mirrors that of other tribal cultures like that in the UK and related lands, Africa, and even Asia. Seems to be a recurring theme with tribal civilizations, especially the nomadic ones. But even some of the more settled ones were sniping at each other.

I think recurring warfare is a characteristic of nearly all human civilizations. The nations of Europe constantly fought with each other for centuries, well into the period where they didn't call themselves "tribal" and used "tribal" to describe people of their colonies. Two of their most devastating wars were fought in the first half of the 20th century. From my reading, the nations of medieval North America fought wars with each other roughly as much as the nations of medieval Europe fought wars with each other -- which is to say, a lot. It's impossible to compare precisely, of course, but it seems roughly on the same scale - more in some places, less in others.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 07:53:00 PM
Here are some pull quotes straight from the SJW's mouth (and a few comments from me in bold)...

"In the gaming world we're dealing with a microcosm of what the rest of the nation is dealing with. That is, Natives in gaming are working in a space dominated by whites and white culture." - because the fact that you get all these free publicity interviews is proof that you are oppressed by the system; try endorsing the Roman Catholic position on sexuality on any public media outlet and see how fast you're perma-banned, then talk to me about cultural domination.

"I wanted to create a world that wasn't rooted in our real now, which can sometimes be really depressing, but a world that, while maybe not a utopia, at least offered a world where Natives were charting their own path and aren't living under this horrible trauma." - You hear that? Native Americans are traumatized by having a better standard of living than 95% of the planet and all those tax free casinos. It's HORRIBLE!!!

"We've created a d12 based system unique for this game." - not directly related to Wokism, but the only people I've ever seen try to develop d12 based games invariably seem to think they're sending some sort of message by using the "discriminated against" die... as if a chunk of plastic has feelings.

"One, the system needed to be Native built. We didn't want to build on the backs of others. It was important this be ours. Second, it's a system that we think helps tell stories rather than crunch numbers, which is at the heart of what we're trying to put out there. We want a system that encourages people to tell stories." - despite it probably having 10x the accessibility if you did so, you couldn't build it to be compatible with 5e because d20s are racist I guess? Likewise, sure sign of Wokist agenda in gaming is when their primary focus is to make sure the game is about creating stories.

In other words, C&C is utterly incapable of being anything other than a crap sandwich for the same reason that everything run by the SJWs turns into a crap sandwich.

You can go ahead and bite down to assure yourself... I'm good with using the unique SJW stench as my cue to not even touch the crap sandwich.

I've bitten into this exactly as much as you now have -- I've read the preview. I don't know how the resulting game will be - I'll wait for reviews for that. But prior to this, you and your friend were complaining about a lot of things that didn't exist - like complaining about it's magic system, for example, or saying how tribal affiliation worked like Vampire clans.

Now you're at least complaining about stuff that is in there - like how it uses a d12. I agree with that - using a d12 usually seems like a gimmick. I don't see an SJW connection, though. Other RPGs using a d12 include Dominion (http://dominionrules.org/), Tephra (https://tephrarpg.com/), and Fray (http://mirthdrake.com/fray/).

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 01:28:51 PMAs my Blackfoot friend stated; some other tribes weren't even considered people; they were vermin.

Here in Brazil, the Portuguese and French encountered two main tribes along the coastline, the Tupi and the Tapuia. They were engaged in a bloody, interminable war.

Except, Tapuia isn't what they called themselves. Tupi means "People" and Tapuia is Tupi for "Not People".

Since the Tupi-Portuguese alliance beat the Tapuia-French alliance, and the Tupi proceeded to exterminate the Tapuia, we'll never know who they really were.

"Discriminated against d12?"

Does anyone real actually think that? The d12 gets used outside RPGs. Several board games use them. The d8 though got alot of use for a while then seems to have fallen off in use in board games.

The commonality is something like d6, d10, d8, d12 d20 and at the bottom the lonely d4 and even more snubbed d2.

Outside of D&D and Rifts how many RPGs actually use a d20 for example?

The D4 doubles as a caltrop, tho, so it's plenty useful. ;)

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 12:40:05 AM
Outside of D&D and Rifts how many RPGs actually use a d20 for example?

Glancing over at my shelf, I see: Alternity, Earthdawn, TORG Eternity, damn near everything from Modiphius (the 2d20 systems), Mutants & Masterminds (sufficiently different from D&D to mention despite the fact that I left off numerous d20 D&D derivatives).

Well of course the d20 stuff used a d20. Its still more, or less, D&D. So doesnt count. Alternity was from TSR/WOTC and so odds were it would use a d20 in there somewhere. Actually its system was supposed to be semi-compatible with 2e. Cardmaster uses a d20 as well as its a really pared down D&D system.

Think Ironclaw uses the full spread for its various dice pools is one can think of.

Alot of RPGs seem to go for the d6s as those are easier to get off the shelf. With the rare forays into percentile dice.

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 06:49:53 AM
Well of course the d20 stuff used a d20. Its still more, or less, D&D. So doesnt count. Alternity was from TSR/WOTC and so odds were it would use a d20 in there somewhere. Actually its system was supposed to be semi-compatible with 2e. Cardmaster uses a d20 as well as its a really pared down D&D system.

Think Ironclaw uses the full spread for its various dice pools is one can think of.

Alot of RPGs seem to go for the d6s as those are easier to get off the shelf. With the rare forays into percentile dice.

The only d20 product I mentioned was M&M, and by 3e, it has very little in common with D&D beyond using the d20 for resolution.

There were also several TSR games that did not use the d20, so I don't agree with your "odds were" statement.

Put the goal posts back where they belong junior.

Quote from: Omega on March 27, 2021, 03:31:24 AM
Put the goal posts back where they belong junior.

I'll accept your bizarre self-talk (who refers to themselves as "junior") as a concession. I don't hate you for shifting goalposts.

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 12:40:05 AMOutside of D&D and Rifts how many RPGs actually use a d20 for example?

There are a lot! I did a thread once on "How many systems use a D20 roll-under mechanic?" and the results were surprising. I can't recall most of them, however. Mostly stuff I had never heard of.

Alternity used a D20 roll-under for it's core mechanic, modified +/- by step dice (d4, d6, d8, etc.)

Quote from: Aglondir on March 27, 2021, 07:33:49 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 12:40:05 AMOutside of D&D and Rifts how many RPGs actually use a d20 for example?

There are a lot! I did a thread once on "How many systems use a D20 roll-under mechanic?" and the results were surprising. I can't recall most of them, however. Mostly stuff I had never heard of.

Alternity used a D20 roll-under for it's core mechanic, modified +/- by step dice (d4, d6, d8, etc.)

Alternity is a sorta-kinda D&D variant so still within the same basket. Same for alot of D&D derivatives way back. There were several early on. Then by the 80s or 90s you saw a shift to d6s. d6 systems probably do not outnumber the d20 ones. But they seem to be growing every year.

Amazing Engine on the other hand I believe was its own system and did use a d20. Tangentally. There are RPGs that use a d20. But its not the primary die for most resolution. Most Palladium games feel like that even though the d20 is used for combat. percentile rolls are more predominant. Or games like Ironclaw where a d20 is just there with neither dominance or lack thereof.

Back on topic. Such as it is.

Both of the games discussed so far would have come across better without the virtue signalling or agenda platforming. Though makes sense with C&R since the movie they are coat-tailing on was used as an agenda platform itself.

Quote from: Omega on March 27, 2021, 08:45:21 PM
Alternity is a sorta-kinda D&D variant so still within the same basket.

No, it's really not.

Dear Lord, Have those morons never heard about modern medecine and health professionals ? Self-care is good, sure, but nobody can use a game like RPG as a cure to mental diseases. It is just a way to have friends (and I actually mean good friends, not parasites and utterly selfish people) having a good time and relaxing without being judged for the silliness said and done during the game.

Gather friends and let us now fight fatphobia in RPGs.

Check this dweeb. It's going around the FB groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXm0ZNFt0zA

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 27, 2021, 09:11:46 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 27, 2021, 08:45:21 PM
Alternity is a sorta-kinda D&D variant so still within the same basket.

No, it's really not.

I'll take your word on that for now as my books are in storage and cant check.

Then remember still have the alt GW book here and leafed through. Yeah its got some D&D DNA in there but its so far removed it reads very differently. Thought for sure I had a conversion booklet they released but seems not. Does use a d20 though! So again Im proven wrong. heh.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 28, 2021, 06:43:05 AM
Check this dweeb.

Fuck me, what a cocksmock.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 28, 2021, 07:11:30 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 28, 2021, 06:43:05 AM
Check this dweeb.

Fuck me, what a cocksmock.

LOL You're not wrong.

This brings it to a whole new level of utter lunacy. And the little shit is so self-righteous too. What a sweaty little creep.

Quote from: Spinachcat on March 12, 2021, 04:39:29 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:27:12 PM
This fucking site: every day I get a handful of reports of people bitching about how they didn't like something someone said to them, like I would give a fuck, and yet not one report on the neo-nazi bullshit.

This is a free speech site. Nobody needs to be bitching to you, nor reporting wrongthink.

And you can keep banning all the "neo-nazi bullshit" and your detractors will keep calling you a naughty nutzi forever and ever.

EDIT: Since race based scientific analysis is effectively forbidden, the nature/nurture question is going to stick with us and be plagued with pseudo-science and bias.

This is a "settled" RPG concept.
According to grandfather of RPGs, D&D/AD&D, racial and sexual characteristics are determined by nature, not nurture. 
At character creation!
;-P

Quote from: Visitor Q on March 17, 2021, 09:14:09 PM

QuoteA perfect example of this is the Ceremony Skill. This is a fully functioning Skill on its own and is useful as is to anyone playing. But we also call this out as a point where Native players can speak with their Story Guide and work to create Specialized versions for the Skill that allows for different effects and parameters based on that particular Native's culture and traditions. In this scenario, non-Natives don't need to take any special actions. Just play the game as it's written, and you're fine".

Only real genuine red-skinned indians can fully play this game.
Don't you dare make up your own specialized ceremonies whitey!

Quote from: yabaziou on March 28, 2021, 04:50:05 AM
Dear Lord, Have those morons never heard about modern medecine and health professionals ? Self-care is good, sure, but nobody can use a game like RPG as a cure to mental diseases. It is just a way to have friends (and I actually mean good friends, not parasites and utterly selfish people) having a good time and relaxing without being judged for the silliness said and done during the game.

Many of the gaming forums seem to have threads (tangency is notable) where members list their mental and physical afflictions as a source of pride or rather  competition.
And near as I can tell from reading, quite a few of these people believe RPGs are/should be therapy sessions.
I agree that it is lunacy as well.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 28, 2021, 06:43:05 AM
Gather friends and let us now fight fatphobia in RPGs.

Check this dweeb. It's going around the FB groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXm0ZNFt0zA

Thanks for that. I now have cancer, diabetes, and a Che Guevara tattoo. Comrade.

Quote from: Samsquantch on March 28, 2021, 04:15:22 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 28, 2021, 06:43:05 AM
Gather friends and let us now fight fatphobia in RPGs.

Check this dweeb. It's going around the FB groups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXm0ZNFt0zA

Thanks for that. I now have cancer, diabetes, and a Che Guevara tattoo. Comrade.

But at least now you will be able to die early and know that you'll be loved. Hugs all-round!

As usual. What these nuts have done is taken something useful and twisted it into something to suit their agenda.

Psychology and schoolastics have and probably still are using role playing as a tool for therapy. But it is only one tool and it is used in conjunction with other types of therapy. Role play is not and can not be a mystical panacea.

And sure enough someone out there has blown that way out of proportion. Its pretty much the flip-side of the claims others have that playing RPGs leads to madness. Though looking at alot of storygamers... maybe the moral guardians were not too far off the mark there.

Could the game lead into the player becoming less fat by employing irl excercises to gain exp? If so its a gain, no matter how small. Seriously, the body and mind needs it. Ofc this is not this thing, reinforcing obesity as normal and coupling tabletop rpgs with it is not what the obese person needs. Rpgs should not have a real world conduit into ones selfimage. They are escapism imho, one that leads to positive stress release or other benefits. Employed with a distortion of ones selfimage they may lead into further distorting it. I have seen way too intense star wars fans or people who call themselves trekkies, who are caricatures of fans of a thing. To make a paraphrase i heard about the negative influence of such behavior, its ''reinforcing the group psychosis in each participant''.

Recently i have seen a tv series about a group of people who are obese and want to get thinner. They will all get their stomaches resized. They look like they need it, emotionally and physically. The problem is this is a potentially very invasive and serious medical procedure. So, beeing too obese is really not good, this is no great new revelation.

Quote from: Warder on March 29, 2021, 07:10:15 PM
Could the game lead into the player becoming less fat by employing irl excercises to gain exp?

Nope. Read the game description. The example scenario is going for pancakes (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/avenmcconnaughey/fat-self-care-volume-1) with your lover. There is no character development, you can't even put points into Self-Esteem or Marital Bonds or something. You just roleplay spending a day treating yourself. One day of being content and happy and loved. That's the game.

QuoteFat Self Care is a solo journaling game where you play Rowan, a fat person, as they go through a day of fun and fulfilling activities. At each point during the day, you will have several choices of which activity you want to do next, and each activity will provide several questions for you to shape Rowan's inner life, relationships, and self-image. Each activity ends with two affirmations - reclaiming the word fat and giving you and Rowan a truth that is commonly denied to fat people. [...] you can play Rowan as any or no gender with the body characteristics or your choice, aside from being fat, which is mandatory.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 29, 2021, 07:57:16 PM

Quote from: Warder on March 29, 2021, 07:10:15 PM
Could the game lead into the player becoming less fat by employing irl excercises to gain exp?

Nope. Read the game description. The example scenario is going for pancakes (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/avenmcconnaughey/fat-self-care-volume-1) with your lover. There is no character development, you can't even put points into Self-Esteem or Marital Bonds or something. You just roleplay spending a day treating yourself. One day of being content and happy and loved. That's the game.

The entire thing is a self glorification of being obese. Fat people (or those parasites who feed off it by self identification) making themselves feel good about what they have done to themselves, Twisting facts to the point that anyone telling them about the health and social reasons they should lose weight is being repressive and ablelist.

I'm a fat bastard. But no one should ever say or normalize it (and therefore implying that it's okay to be overweight). It's not - you can't deny the science.

That doesn't mean you have to be a bastard about it - Just offer support and encouragement as you would to a mate.

But all this fluffy wuffy, stick your head in the sand shit, is simply ridiculous and unhelpful in the long run.

High time the Lads from Macc had their say...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vh7JxyQwI8

Quote from: robh on March 30, 2021, 06:56:21 AM
The entire thing is a self glorification of being obese.

It seems to me less like glorification, and more like acceptance; which acceptance you could characterise as lazy, self-indulgent, realistic, reasonable or simple fantasy depending on your point of view.

The scenarios appear to be simply that the person spends a day enjoying themselves and being loved. Such a scenario is not offensive to me. I believe that obese people deserve a day of fun and love as much as anyone.

However, to my mind it's not a game, because a game has an uncertain outcome which is determined by some combination of choice and chance. In this case, the outcome is certain: you'll have a fun day with someone who loves you. In these scenarios, you can't roll the dice and discover that actually you were bored or your lover dumped you - the outcome will always be awesome.

In this Fat Self-Care may be roleplaying, but it is not a game.

Of course, the versions of D&D where everyone automatically gets stacks of treasure and magic and nobody can ever die also share this failing: the outcome is certain, you always win. That may be roleplaying but it's not a game.

Quote from: robh on March 30, 2021, 06:56:21 AM
The entire thing is a self glorification of being obese. Fat people (or those parasites who feed off it by self identification) making themselves feel good about what they have done to themselves, Twisting facts to the point that anyone telling them about the health and social reasons they should lose weight is being repressive and ablelist.

I am a fatass with high blood pressure.  This is obviously bad and while I'm trying to lose weight now, I'm 46 and it's really hard.  What I hate is young people who can more easily lose the weight are, in some number or other, going to buy this bullshit, stay fat, and pay for it when they're my age. 

Quote from: Omega on March 28, 2021, 07:34:32 PM
As usual. What these nuts have done is taken something useful and twisted it into something to suit their agenda.

Psychology and schoolastics have and probably still are using role playing as a tool for therapy. But it is only one tool and it is used in conjunction with other types of therapy. Role play is not and can not be a mystical panacea.

And sure enough someone out there has blown that way out of proportion. Its pretty much the flip-side of the claims others have that playing RPGs leads to madness. Though looking at alot of storygamers... maybe the moral guardians were not too far off the mark there.

"Roleplay" as a psychological therapy shares almost nothing with "Roleplay" in gaming, except that the term is the same and it does involve "roles".  In particular, the use of your imagination is very different.  Using gaming roleplay in place of the therapy could in many cases be actively harmful to a person who might otherwise benefit from the therapy done properly by a trained professional. 

This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.  They see the term, decide it means whatever they think it means, and don't bother to go learn the differences.  Exactly the kind of person you want giving an improvised therapy session using counter-productive tools to an unbalanced person, right? People can be charged with a felony for encouraging a suicidal person to "do it".  Far as I'm concerned, going off half-cocked with "RPG theraphy" should at least set up the GM for a lawsuit.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.  They see the term, decide it means whatever they think it means, and don't bother to go learn the differences.  Exactly the kind of person you want giving an improvised therapy session using counter-productive tools to an unbalanced person, right? People can be charged with a felony for encouraging a suicidal person to "do it".  Far as I'm concerned, going off half-cocked with "RPG theraphy" should at least set up the GM for a lawsuit.

I have no opinion on the RPG since I haven't read it.

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

Quote from: DocJones on March 28, 2021, 09:58:56 AM

Many of the gaming forums seem to have threads (tangency is notable) where members list their mental and physical afflictions as a source of pride or rather  competition.

And near as I can tell from reading, quite a few of these people believe RPGs are/should be therapy sessions.

I agree that it is lunacy as well.

It's already happening...

Behold!

The Future of D&D's Adventurer's League:

Quote from: Therapeutic Tabletop Gaming​ on March 28, 2021, 09:58:56 AM
https://www.enworld.org/threads/meet-the-bodhana-group.679031/
...
"At that first Save Against Fear convention, with 35 people, we started hearing stories," said Jack. Stories about how gaming had helped people. How role-playing books inspired their interest to read as a child. How the character they created in the game had traits of the character they strive to be in life. How their game group had become the most important social group they had in their life. It was inspiring. So the Bodhana Group switched gears. They had found their path: Therapeutic Tabletop Gaming.

"One of the biggest things that we had learned was that people were gaining therapeutic benefits and increased self-understanding through active engagement with their own struggles and issues within the game," said Jack. "We started examining our own interest in the hobby and the intentional nature of our own play, whether it was getting through our parent's divorce, the death of family, or social isolation and self-esteem. We thought: how wonderful it would be and how much more powerful could this be if we intentionally, through the guidance and oversight of a trained therapist, built therapeutics and clinical goals into the process?"

The Bodhana Group built upon these lessons learned early in their formation by adopting the principle of starting with a firm foundation rooted in a therapeutic modality, like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and then adapting the game to highlight these techniques in game design. Thus the world, the characters, the challenges and the storyline all act as vehicles for clinical intervention.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 02:50:28 PM

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

It's legal to do all kinds of unethical things.  Doesn't make it right to do those things, except for people who define "right" as "what they can get away with".  The SJW's come for a legacy that was awfully proud of fighting against unethical behavior.  I'm not saying that the SJW's understand that legacy.  I'm not saying that everyone from that legacy was entirely sincere.  The same people that were quick (and still are) to jump on the same unethical behavior in other contexts don't seem terribly bothered by these particular examples of it.  They were also quick to throw the law around.  We are way past the point where the left needs to answer for this double-standard. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.  They see the term, decide it means whatever they think it means, and don't bother to go learn the differences.  Exactly the kind of person you want giving an improvised therapy session using counter-productive tools to an unbalanced person, right? People can be charged with a felony for encouraging a suicidal person to "do it".  Far as I'm concerned, going off half-cocked with "RPG theraphy" should at least set up the GM for a lawsuit.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
I have no opinion on the RPG since I haven't read it.

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 05:56:42 PM
It's legal to do all kinds of unethical things.  Doesn't make it right to do those things, except for people who define "right" as "what they can get away with".  The SJW's come for a legacy that was awfully proud of fighting against unethical behavior.  I'm not saying that the SJW's understand that legacy.  I'm not saying that everyone from that legacy was entirely sincere.  The same people that were quick (and still are) to jump on the same unethical behavior in other contexts don't seem terribly bothered by these particular examples of it.  They were also quick to throw the law around.  We are way past the point where the left needs to answer for this double-standard.

I'm not talking about SJWs in particular. I was speaking about pseudo-science of various sorts -- especially self-help / self-care advice. Overall, it seems to me that pseudo-scientific self-help advice goes across the political spectrum, from conservative Christian prayer and faith healing to New Age crystals and so forth. While there are unethical profiteers -- a lot of the people selling pseudo-science really are true believers. They believe and use the methods they are selling to others - whether that's faith healing or crystal therapy.

Again, I'm not saying it's right - but I don't think it helps to make it illegal and sue anyone who tries to promote pseudo-science.

Apropos RPGs and real therapy, there have been a bunch of genuine psychological studies using real role-playing games - including some where trained psychologists reviewed their use of RPGs. I collected a bunch of references here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I particularly recall this article entitled "Therapy is Fantasy". It's from 1988, and is a case study of a patient who was engaged in RPGs, and used the same character across a number of traditional RPGs such as Call of Cthulhu.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html

I'm of the opinion people should be allowed to inflict whatever stupidity they wanted on themselves.

I think stuff like fat self-care is just....disgusting wish fulfillment, but nothing more insidious than that. At least not any more so insidious than the obesity positivity movement as a whole.

And I'm a guy that lost 40 pounds over like 6 months. You can do it.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 06:18:51 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.  They see the term, decide it means whatever they think it means, and don't bother to go learn the differences.  Exactly the kind of person you want giving an improvised therapy session using counter-productive tools to an unbalanced person, right? People can be charged with a felony for encouraging a suicidal person to "do it".  Far as I'm concerned, going off half-cocked with "RPG theraphy" should at least set up the GM for a lawsuit.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
I have no opinion on the RPG since I haven't read it.

However, as long as the authors don't misrepresent themselves as legally licensed doctors, it's legal to give all sorts of bad advice - including pseudo-science. There are endless pseudo-science self-help books advising astrology, crystals, faith healing, etc. - including many forms of self-care. I hate pseudo-science, but I don't think it should be illegal. People need to come to science - it can't be forced on them.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 05:56:42 PM
It's legal to do all kinds of unethical things.  Doesn't make it right to do those things, except for people who define "right" as "what they can get away with".  The SJW's come for a legacy that was awfully proud of fighting against unethical behavior.  I'm not saying that the SJW's understand that legacy.  I'm not saying that everyone from that legacy was entirely sincere.  The same people that were quick (and still are) to jump on the same unethical behavior in other contexts don't seem terribly bothered by these particular examples of it.  They were also quick to throw the law around.  We are way past the point where the left needs to answer for this double-standard.

I'm not talking about SJWs in particular. I was speaking about pseudo-science of various sorts -- especially self-help / self-care advice. Overall, it seems to me that pseudo-scientific self-help advice goes across the political spectrum, from conservative Christian prayer and faith healing to New Age crystals and so forth. While there are unethical profiteers -- a lot of the people selling pseudo-science really are true believers. They believe and use the methods they are selling to others - whether that's faith healing or crystal therapy.

Again, I'm not saying it's right - but I don't think it helps to make it illegal and sue anyone who tries to promote pseudo-science.

Apropos RPGs and real therapy, there have been a bunch of genuine psychological studies using real role-playing games - including some where trained psychologists reviewed their use of RPGs. I collected a bunch of references here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I particularly recall this article entitled "Therapy is Fantasy". It's from 1988, and is a case study of a patient who was engaged in RPGs, and used the same character across a number of traditional RPGs such as Call of Cthulhu.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html

From your own compilation:

Quote
Ascherman, Lee I. "The Impact of Unstructured Games of Fantasy and Role Playing on an Inpatient Unit for Adolescents", International Journal of Group Psychotherapy, Vol. 43 (3), July 1993, P. 335-344
    Researchers brought a role-playing game into a severe psychiatric inpatient setting. Their results found that unstructured playing in a fantasy world reinforced pathologies and resistance to therapy.

Seems like any positive impact needs the use to be supervised by a therapist. Which tracs with all we know about therapy.

As for many other studies that "show" a relation between some bad traits and TTRPGs... Gee, wonder why a bunch of nerds playing TTRPGs back in the 70's-90's felt social alienation?

Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 30, 2021, 08:45:10 PM
Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

I didn't have this experience. The only real scorn I remember came years later. I went to the joint birthday party of a woman I'd known when we were teenagers, and her 10 month (!) older sister. They made scornful mention of my teenaged interest in rpgs, and I said, "And I'm still into them!" and they were obviously disgusted. But... one of them had just divorced because she wanted an "open relationship" and her husband didn't, and the other was an alcoholic. So: a couple of people who'd failed in life considered me a failure. This did not hurt me.

Aside from that nobody's ever cared either way.

I think this is a bit like when some woman does a bodybuilding competition and whacks it up on Instagram and says, "Don't believe the naysayers! People told me I couldn't do it and here I am!" and if you know the woman, you think, "hey, I remember when you started, and everyone was nothing but supportive and encouraging."

People often take their own self-doubt and self-hatred and project it onto others. "Well, I think I'm awful, so everyone else must think I'm awful, too."

Gaming. Nobody cares.

[double-post]

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 30, 2021, 08:52:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 30, 2021, 08:45:10 PM
Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

I didn't have this experience. The only real scorn I remember came years later. I went to the joint birthday party of a woman I'd known when we were teenagers, and her 10 month (!) older sister. They made scornful mention of my teenaged interest in rpgs, and I said, "And I'm still into them!" and they were obviously disgusted. But... one of them had just divorced because she wanted an "open relationship" and her husband didn't, and the other was an alcoholic. So: a couple of people who'd failed in life considered me a failure. This did not hurt me.

Aside from that nobody's ever cared either way.

I think this is a bit like when some woman does a bodybuilding competition and whacks it up on Instagram and says, "Don't believe the naysayers! People told me I couldn't do it and here I am!" and if you know the woman, you think, "hey, I remember when you started, and everyone was nothing but supportive and encouraging."

People often take their own self-doubt and self-hatred and project it onto others. "Well, I think I'm awful, so everyone else must think I'm awful, too."

Gaming. Nobody cares.

Yeah, I must have self-inflicted the beatings...

Your "argument" is a logical falacy, argument from incredulity. And yet there's tons of people that had the exact same experience I had. But because you (who I bet are way younger than me) didn't then it never happened right?

I was just thinking that someone like Kyle could write a really good live action Fat Self Care game where you go to the gym and work out.

Quote from: Warder on March 29, 2021, 07:10:15 PM
Could the game lead into the player becoming less fat by employing irl excercises to gain exp? If so its a gain, no matter how small. Seriously, the body and mind needs it. Ofc this is not this thing, reinforcing obesity as normal and coupling tabletop rpgs with it is not what the obese person needs.

As mentioend elsewhere. There actually are some journal-type games where you advance by doing exercises. Rather well done too.
This RPG in question though feels like the diametric opposite. Not sure if its pushing a "positive body image" agenda or just woke for a buck, or just ill thought out but with good intentions.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 30, 2021, 02:03:48 PM
"Roleplay" as a psychological therapy shares almost nothing with "Roleplay" in gaming, except that the term is the same and it does involve "roles".  In particular, the use of your imagination is very different.  Using gaming roleplay in place of the therapy could in many cases be actively harmful to a person who might otherwise benefit from the therapy done properly by a trained professional. 

This is just another example of uninformed pseudo-science from this crowd.

Exactly. We see this over and over in various forms and sooner or later its going to end badly. If it has not already.

Quote from: jhkim on March 30, 2021, 06:18:51 PM
Apropos RPGs and real therapy, there have been a bunch of genuine psychological studies using real role-playing games - including some where trained psychologists reviewed their use of RPGs. I collected a bunch of references here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

I particularly recall this article entitled "Therapy is Fantasy". It's from 1988, and is a case study of a patient who was engaged in RPGs, and used the same character across a number of traditional RPGs such as Call of Cthulhu.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 30, 2021, 08:45:10 PM
From your own compilation:

Quote
Ascherman, Lee I. "The Impact of Unstructured Games of Fantasy and Role Playing on an Inpatient Unit for Adolescents", International Journal of Group Psychotherapy, Vol. 43 (3), July 1993, P. 335-344
    Researchers brought a role-playing game into a severe psychiatric inpatient setting. Their results found that unstructured playing in a fantasy world reinforced pathologies and resistance to therapy.

Seems like any positive impact needs the use to be supervised by a therapist. Which tracs with all we know about therapy.

As for many other studies that "show" a relation between some bad traits and TTRPGs... Gee, wonder why a bunch of nerds playing TTRPGs back in the 70's-90's felt social alienation?

Same study could be done with people of the same age back then around any geek hobby/interest with the same results. Maybe because we were bullied by the beautiful people?

That study is of people with severe problems. I don't think it necessarily generalizes to everyone else.

Overall, I think the studies show that RPGs don't cause problems, and are associated with a number of positive traits. It's not proven psychologically, but I think creative endeavors like RPGs are a very positive experience. It's not a cure for anything, but like music and other hobbies - I think creative social gaming is mentally healthy, and doesn't require a trained psychologist to be so. It's more healthy and engaging than watching TV or scrolling social media.

And yeah, nerds who weren't into the "normal" interests back in the 70s to 90s were disconnected from mainstream culture. But I don't think social alienation is a psychologically unhealthy trait. Anyone who isn't in the mainstream culture has social alienation - whether from being an immigrant, Jewish or Muslim, and so forth. That's just a difference, not a bad trait. Sometimes the mainstream culture sucks and it's better to not be a part of it.

Quote from: jhkim on March 31, 2021, 02:00:51 PM
That study is of people with severe problems. I don't think it necessarily generalizes to everyone else.

Overall, I think the studies show that RPGs don't cause problems, and are associated with a number of positive traits. It's not proven psychologically, but I think creative endeavors like RPGs are a very positive experience. It's not a cure for anything, but like music and other hobbies - I think creative social gaming is mentally healthy, and doesn't require a trained psychologist to be so. It's more healthy and engaging than watching TV or scrolling social media.

RPGs used as "therapy" by untrained people are potentially damaging to a whole lot more people than those with severe problems.  The difference, is that a person who doesn't have a severe problem has a much better shot--if only intuition--at recognizing that confusing an RPG with therapy is a bad situation.  I'll put it in an analogy that perhaps more people can get: 

Think of an RPG as a party where alcohol is served.  Most people, that's neither here nor there.  They aren't alcoholics or bad drunks or even if they do go a little overboard from time to time, they've got ways of mitigating the fallout before it spirals out of control.  That one friend that is a severe alcoholic is the analog to a person with a psychological disorder (or in some cases, not merely an analog).  Now think about the close circle of that alcoholic.  Unless they have extremely strong, well-adjusted personalities, there is going to be some psychological warping from dealing with the alcoholic.  "Enabling" is just the tip of the iceberg.  And of course those kind of problems rarely occur singly--they come in bunches, and are difficult for even a professional to unravel sometime.  There's a good reason why the professional therapist is talking to more than the person with the obvious problem.  (Like all analogies, it's not perfect, but I think conveys the distinction I'm trying to make here.)

RPGs used "properly" as an RPG session that is a creative outlet, not a therapy session, are great, even sometimes for people with a severe problem (assuming the group is willing and able to cope without getting warped).  It becomes part of the "normal life" support network that everyone needs and that people with problems have a difficult time getting.  Running that kind of session is having a party where you don't let your drunk friends drive home and if necessary you sometimes do a different kind of party that will not set back your severe alcoholic friend.  Running an RPG session as "therapy" is inviting your severe alcoholic friend and some of his circle to a booze fest--and then slipping a drug into random drinks with the idea that this will counter the resulting problems.  Anyone with a clear view of what is happening will be pissed off.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2021, 07:21:40 AM
RPGs used "properly" as an RPG session that is a creative outlet, not a therapy session, are great, even sometimes for people with a severe problem (assuming the group is willing and able to cope without getting warped).  It becomes part of the "normal life" support network that everyone needs and that people with problems have a difficult time getting.  Running that kind of session is having a party where you don't let your drunk friends drive home and if necessary you sometimes do a different kind of party that will not set back your severe alcoholic friend.  Running an RPG session as "therapy" is inviting your severe alcoholic friend and some of his circle to a booze fest--and then slipping a drug into random drinks with the idea that this will counter the resulting problems.  Anyone with a clear view of what is happening will be pissed off.

This seems like previous views I've had to struggle with - especially from the 1980s. As it was explained to me, playing an RPG might *seem* safe - but actually it was playing with fire. Some RPGs were run and played safely - but if I wasn't careful, the DM could slip in some serious psychological stuff into my game, and I could go too far, become addicted and spiral into a warped and unhealthy fantasy world. This is ​the view dramatized in the novel and movie "Mazes and Monsters".

Based on what I've read of the psychological studies and my experience, I don't think this is true.

Tabletop RPGs don't have the potential to be drugs surreptitiously slipped into drinks. They're played openly with others - and everything that happens is plainly spoken. Yes, someone could attempt to psychologically manipulate another during an RPG - but they could just as easily try to mess with them on a sports team, in a poetry circle, or any other social scene. The teammates on someone's soccer team might think he's feeling down and conspire to help him psychologically -- but even if their efforts to help him are misguided, it's not the equivalent of slipping him a drug. It's just bad advice. The same in a tabletop RPG. Like any social scene, RPGs can potentially be a bad influence on people if one is playing with bad people - but I don't think they are like drugs.

There are activities that can be addictive - like gambling. However, I don't think that tabletop RPGs are dangerous in that way. I've seen some studies of online video games regarding addiction, but none with tabletop RPGs.

That's the difference between reading studies and having practical experience with the thing being discussed.  Playing an RPG as an RPG is entirely safe (barring some individual so messed up that it is dangerous to do anything with them, of course--which is not on the RPG). 

"Playing an RPG" as a therapy session is not playing an RPG.  It's running a therapy session when you don't know what the hell you are doing.  Now admittedly, there is not much special about RPGs in that respect, inherently.  "Playing baseball" as a therapy session would be almost as stupid, other than there is more room for the stupidity to cause harm in an RPG because of how imagination plays into it.  But one could certainly screw up almost any social activity that way if one tried hard enough.

Let me try it a third way.  Would you agree that a GM is usually a person with some degree of imagination and the ability to manipulate a situation to produce imaginative outcomes in others?  If so, would you also agree that a strong manipulator that sets out to fuck with people with issues can sometimes cause harm?  If so, you are most the way to my point which could also be expressed as:  "Running an RPG as therapy is the GM setting out to fuck with people that have issues."  Designing a game to encourage others to do this makes the designer an asshole.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2021, 01:54:56 PM
That's the difference between reading studies and having practical experience with the thing being discussed.  Playing an RPG as an RPG is entirely safe (barring some individual so messed up that it is dangerous to do anything with them, of course--which is not on the RPG). 

"Playing an RPG" as a therapy session is not playing an RPG.  It's running a therapy session when you don't know what the hell you are doing.  Now admittedly, there is not much special about RPGs in that respect, inherently.  "Playing baseball" as a therapy session would be almost as stupid, other than there is more room for the stupidity to cause harm in an RPG because of how imagination plays into it.  But one could certainly screw up almost any social activity that way if one tried hard enough.

Let me try it a third way.  Would you agree that a GM is usually a person with some degree of imagination and the ability to manipulate a situation to produce imaginative outcomes in others?  If so, would you also agree that a strong manipulator that sets out to fuck with people with issues can sometimes cause harm?  If so, you are most the way to my point which could also be expressed as:  "Running an RPG as therapy is the GM setting out to fuck with people that have issues."  Designing a game to encourage others to do this makes the designer an asshole.

Well put, clearer than water. And yet somehow you'll be misscounstrued as saying just the opposite.

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 12:06:02 PM
This seems like previous views I've had to struggle with - especially from the 1980s. As it was explained to me, playing an RPG might *seem* safe - but actually it was playing with fire. Some RPGs were run and played safely - but if I wasn't careful, the DM could slip in some serious psychological stuff into my game, and I could go too far, become addicted and spiral into a warped and unhealthy fantasy world. This is ​the view dramatized in the novel and movie "Mazes and Monsters".

Another reason to hate Tom Hanks.

And don't forget Blackleaf.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2021, 01:54:56 PM
That's the difference between reading studies and having practical experience with the thing being discussed.  Playing an RPG as an RPG is entirely safe (barring some individual so messed up that it is dangerous to do anything with them, of course--which is not on the RPG). 

"Playing an RPG" as a therapy session is not playing an RPG.  It's running a therapy session when you don't know what the hell you are doing.  Now admittedly, there is not much special about RPGs in that respect, inherently.  "Playing baseball" as a therapy session would be almost as stupid, other than there is more room for the stupidity to cause harm in an RPG because of how imagination plays into it.  But one could certainly screw up almost any social activity that way if one tried hard enough.

The problem here is that for psychology, "therapy session" can include just about anything. My girlfriend is a child therapist and often spends times playing board games with her patients as a way to connect to them. There is massage therapy - but does that mean that if I give my girlfriend a massage, that I'm engaging in an unlicensed therapy session? If a friend of mine is feeling down and I talk with him about his feelings and give him advice, am I engaging in therapy?

For RPGs, the question is - suppose I suspect that my DM is engaging in therapy without telling the players. What would be the signs that he is doing so? How is it different than a regular game in concrete terms?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2021, 01:54:56 PM
Let me try it a third way.  Would you agree that a GM is usually a person with some degree of imagination and the ability to manipulate a situation to produce imaginative outcomes in others?  If so, would you also agree that a strong manipulator that sets out to fuck with people with issues can sometimes cause harm?  If so, you are most the way to my point which could also be expressed as:  "Running an RPG as therapy is the GM setting out to fuck with people that have issues."  Designing a game to encourage others to do this makes the designer an asshole.

Anyone can cause harm, regardless of whether they are a GM or a baseball teammate or anyone else. Life can cause harm, without anyone attempting anything. I'm not convinced that GMs are more dangerous than anyone else. If my son plays in a game with an asshole GM, he can quit the game. He isn't in extra danger because he's playing an RPG compared to doing anything else in life.

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 03:37:44 PM
For RPGs, the question is - suppose I suspect that my DM is engaging in therapy without telling the players. What would be the signs that he is doing so? How is it different than a regular game in concrete terms?

Not everything a therapist does in a session is therapy.  I'm talking clinical practices here.  A concrete example is the clinical "desensitizing" technique.  Very useful in certain cases, if used carefully and monitored.  Sometimes the only way to help someone.  A GM deciding to help you get over your fear of spiders by flooding you with spider foes, tossing real spiders on you, using extraordinary visually imagery, etc. is an example of the wrong-headed approach.  You need a hell of a lot more than "safe words" or "X-cards" or anything else like that to monitor that situation.  And even if the target is well-adjusted enough and/or the phobia is mild enough to deal with it (probably by walking away or telling the GM to piss off), it's still a jerk move on the GM's part.  If the person is not well-adjusted enough or the phobia is strong enough, guess what?  That GM just set back the effort to cope with the problem, potentially a lot.

As far as RPGs are concerned, I would generalize this point beyond even the question of psychology and harm to the thought that the GM running a game for a group should do so with the primary intention of having an enjoyable social event.  It's true that the various participants might learn some history or literature or something about myth or get a little more comfortable with basic math or any number of a host of things that can, and do, emerge naturally out of an RPG session.  In the same vein, it's true that someone with a mild psychological issue might find confronting that thing in the game slightly helpful.  If it emerges naturally as a secondary or tertiary benefit, it does.  When the GM starts trying to force it, they've gone too far.  At best, it is a bait and switch.   It can go downhill from that state really fast.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2021, 04:19:53 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 03:37:44 PM
For RPGs, the question is - suppose I suspect that my DM is engaging in therapy without telling the players. What would be the signs that he is doing so? How is it different than a regular game in concrete terms?

Not everything a therapist does in a session is therapy.  I'm talking clinical practices here.  A concrete example is the clinical "desensitizing" technique.  Very useful in certain cases, if used carefully and monitored.  Sometimes the only way to help someone.  A GM deciding to help you get over your fear of spiders by flooding you with spider foes, tossing real spiders on you, using extraordinary visually imagery, etc. is an example of the wrong-headed approach.  You need a hell of a lot more than "safe words" or "X-cards" or anything else like that to monitor that situation.  And even if the target is well-adjusted enough and/or the phobia is mild enough to deal with it (probably by walking away or telling the GM to piss off), it's still a jerk move on the GM's part.  If the person is not well-adjusted enough or the phobia is strong enough, guess what?  That GM just set back the effort to cope with the problem, potentially a lot.

But this is exactly the logic that is used to claim that safety tools such as the X-card are necessary for games. As a GM, I could easily have a campaign arc that is all about evil spiders even if I didn't intend to use desensitization. And according to your argument, if I did so, I'd be psychologically harming my player who has a phobia of spiders. It's because of this supposed danger that RPGs are argued to need safety tools.

In practice, I don't think this is the danger you're making it out to be. If the player is uncomfortable with it, they can tell the GM they're uncomfortable with it - even if there are no safety tools. If the GM is a jerk and insists on keeping the spiders, the player can quit.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2021, 04:19:53 PM
As far as RPGs are concerned, I would generalize this point beyond even the question of psychology and harm to the thought that the GM running a game for a group should do so with the primary intention of having an enjoyable social event.  It's true that the various participants might learn some history or literature or something about myth or get a little more comfortable with basic math or any number of a host of things that can, and do, emerge naturally out of an RPG session.  In the same vein, it's true that someone with a mild psychological issue might find confronting that thing in the game slightly helpful.  If it emerges naturally as a secondary or tertiary benefit, it does.  When the GM starts trying to force it, they've gone too far.  At best, it is a bait and switch.   It can go downhill from that state really fast.

In practice, I don't worry about kids playing RPGs - because I don't think the game itself is dangerous. If the GM runs a game with the wrong intent, they'll end up with a game that isn't fun and that the players will quit. They won't end up being harmed because the GM.

If the GM *intent* makes the game dangerous, then any game has the potential to be dangerous unless you really trust the GM. But in practice, I don't worry about my son or other kids playing RPGs with each other. It's no more dangerous than any other social activity.

You still seem to be missing the nuances in my point.

As for the safety card, I'll repeat myself from other threads:  If the issues are minor enough, the safety card is unnecessary;  otherwise, the safety card is insufficient.

On the question of intent, yes, a GM can of course do something harmful by accident.  People do it all the time--it's called life and all of us not being perfect.  A certain amount of that is expected and people have to learn to cope with it. People with psychological issues by definition are a little behind the curve there.  Surely you can see that deliberately, systematically doing the same kind of harmful things is a difference in both degree and kind?

At the risk of my words getting twisted, I'll use an exact example from my campaigns:  I've got 3 or 4 players that are, in fact, a little weirded out by big spiders in the game.  None of them have a phobia about it, but it is something that pushes their buttons a little, kind of like the spider scenes in "The Hobbit."  All of them will look at a spider web and a normal spider in admiration, but they don't want a spider to run across their face at night.  They'd reread the "The Hobbit" and enjoy it, but they wouldn't read those spider scenes in an abandoned house covered in cobwebs, alone, at night.  That is well within the boundaries of normal.

I do occasionally use big spiders in my game.  Now, I'm always paying attention to player reactions when running, but anytime I'm pushing up to the edge of what I know they like (and not just things that weird them out), I turn that attention up a notch.  That's part of the excitement of the game. Some players want you to dance up to the edge.  This is where intent starts to matter a lot.  My intent is to give them a great game experience, not desensitize them to being weirded out by big spiders.   Because that is my intent, and I'm paying attention, I will edge in more slowly and back off much sooner.  You can't do that with desensitizing, since the whole point is to get past the edge, but not too far, and stay there briefly.  With me, since I'm edging in, my normal players without issues don't need a card.  If it is approaching the edge, they say, "That's a little too much," or "I don't want to deal with this today."  They are still going to deal with the imaginary spiders in the game, but we lower the rating from R to PG-13 or even lower.  If in some unhappy circumstance I happened to stumble into an issue where the player was too stressed to speak up, they'd either leave the room or sit there in shock or react very strongly.  Either way, I'd notice that. I'm not a trained therapist, but you don't need to be to realize that you need to stop whatever you are doing and deal with the problem.  You only need to be trained if you plan to sit there in the group and suddenly have a group session--not that a trained therapist would, because that is not a controlled environment.

Much Younger Steve, that was a killer GM and didn't know any of this stuff, played around with fire.  But intent still matters.  Because when I leaped over the edge to provide a vivid experience, it sometimes led to sub-optimal game experience for the players.  Just one more instance of what "a group of teenagers engaged in a social activity" can be.  Since my players were reasonable people and knew I was trying, ineptly, to give them a good experience, someone would catch me after the game and tell me it was too much.  Or if it was bad enough, they'd put a halt right then and there and we'd talk it out.  You know, like normal people.  Talk about what works to meet the goal, and if it doesn't work, what to try instead.  The exact opposite of what the X-Card does.

Now contrast that to a game deliberately designed to get the GM to play amateur therapist all the time, telling him it was a good idea, showing him how to aggressively push button, and thinking that an X-Card is the only safety net needed.  That's the difference between, "Here's a procedure to light the pilot light and then the gas fireplace safely," versus, "Take this torch and run through the gas refinery while the tankers are loading, what could go wrong?" Chances are, you'll manage not to do any harm because the people at the refinery probably have enough procedures in place to deal with that kind of stupid intent coupled with relatively low-grade means.  The same way that normal people in a game can tell you to stop it when you do something with equally stupid intent in the game.   And sometimes God watches out for fools. It might "work" because other people adjust to you being an idiot, not because it was a good idea.   However, you only have to get unlucky once to do real damage.

Finally, I want to mention in passing that another reason that SJW's keep pushing this kind of nonsense, is revealing of another aspect of their characters:  They are nearly always a nasty combination of mentally lazy and desperate not to admit that fact to themselves or anyone else.  The X-Card is an excuse (one of many) to avoid the work of getting better at social interactions.   Not to face up to all those life lessons that I and my teenage pals worked through like most normal people do, with lesser improvements as life goes on.  I hate comparing them to "children" because most children are much nicer than SJW's, but developmentally they have the social skills that would make your average 4-year old blush.

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 05:07:00 PM
If the GM *intent* makes the game dangerous, then any game has the potential to be dangerous unless you really trust the GM. But in practice, I don't worry about my son or other kids playing RPGs with each other. It's no more dangerous than any other social activity.

Replying separately to this part because it is related but looking at the issue from a different angle.

Would you want your kids to play in a Little League where the coaches kept telling the players to run around the bases holding the bat and kneecap anyone that tried to stop them?  Not in the rules you say?  Great, what if it is a different Little League game where that is in the rules?  Still want them to play?  Same with an RPG.  Why would you want your kids (or anyone else) to play in game that had rules designed to mentally kneecap the players?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 02, 2021, 08:10:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 05:07:00 PM
If the GM *intent* makes the game dangerous, then any game has the potential to be dangerous unless you really trust the GM. But in practice, I don't worry about my son or other kids playing RPGs with each other. It's no more dangerous than any other social activity.

Replying separately to this part because it is related but looking at the issue from a different angle.

Would you want your kids to play in a Little League where the coaches kept telling the players to run around the bases holding the bat and kneecap anyone that tried to stop them?  Not in the rules you say?  Great, what if it is a different Little League game where that is in the rules?  Still want them to play?  Same with an RPG.  Why would you want your kids (or anyone else) to play in game that had rules designed to mentally kneecap the players?

This is based on the presumption that *fictional* monsters in a tabletop RPG are the equivalent of baseball bats to kneecaps. I can't picture that. Is there any actually published game that you think is the equivalent of this "hit each other with baseball bats"?!?

As far as I have seen, there is no RPG published that would make me afraid for harm to my kid. There are some with inappropriate material, but I think that's a different question.

Quote from: jhkim on April 02, 2021, 08:37:09 PMAs far as I have seen, there is no RPG published that would make me afraid for harm to my kid. There are some with inappropriate material, but I think that's a different question.

I've seen a few now in the last year alone that I think you should at least be cautious around, and a few that you should be concerned around. These are the ones that push some agenda though. Sometimes subtly, more often very not subtly.

I think ANY RPG touting itself as "Therapy" is dangerous on way too many levels. Moreso if it also has some agenda its pushing at the same time. That is not therapy. Its brainwashing. But even just touting itself as "therapy" alone is dangerous. Most notably because odds are this is some persons idea of what "therapy" means rather than something written by a trained professional. Odds are its based on various misconceptions that have built up over the decades.

As for Fat Self Care... I really do not know what this is supposed to be other than reading like an outrage marketing ploy on the surface. Which at this point is practically SOP for marketing now.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 01:28:51 PM
And because my friend knows how the Woke game is played; they wanted to know just how the Cherokee author thinks its okay to appropriate Lakota and First Nations cultural elements as his own, comparing it to a Spaniard claiming French wine and German sauerkraut as part of their heritage because they live on the same continent.

The developer is so aware of this issue...

Quote[27-Jan-21 08:49 PM] connorhalo#2266
So, there's a Skill in the game called Ceremony. It's currently written in a very generic way that we wanted to make sure non-Natives can use. There's an option for Native players to adapt things like Ceremony to their tribes traditions and modify the effects. But "Magic" starts getting into areas where to define it one way is to start excluding certain tribes and their beliefs from the game. We're working hard on making sure that the game is structured enough to feel like you can ground it, but open enough that Natives can still feel free to adjust it to their liking. Short answer: No magic in the D&D sense. Longer answer: It depends on the Story Guides and the beliefs of the players.

...that they're deliberately not defining certain parts of the setting in order to avoid alienating anyone (https://gmshoe.wordpress.com/2021/01/27/qa-connor-alexander-derek-pounds-coyote-and-crow/).

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 01:28:51 PM
And the fact that this setting will almost certainly gloss over the slavery (including what in modern times would be sex slavery), human sacrifice, endemic tribal warfare and the glaring cultural divides between tribes is why my friend pretty much loathes projects like this... Native Americans are not seen as actual people by the Woke, they're magic fairies who would live in a perfect kumbaiya utopia if not for Western civilization showing up.

Of all the concerns about the game this is the most valid.

Quote from: BronzeDragon on March 23, 2021, 08:55:20 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2021, 01:28:51 PMAs my Blackfoot friend stated; some other tribes weren't even considered people; they were vermin.

Here in Brazil, the Portuguese and French encountered two main tribes along the coastline, the Tupi and the Tapuia. They were engaged in a bloody, interminable war.

Except, Tapuia isn't what they called themselves. Tupi means "People" and Tapuia is Tupi for "Not People".

Since the Tupi-Portuguese alliance beat the Tapuia-French alliance, and the Tupi proceeded to exterminate the Tapuia, we'll never know who they really were.

I knew colonial tribal names were the result of tribes being asked what they called other tribes, but I hadn't realized how ironically on point it was.

Quote from: DocJones on March 28, 2021, 09:58:56 AM
Many of the gaming forums seem to have threads (tangency is notable) where members list their mental and physical afflictions as a source of pride or rather  competition.

This really is the heart of the issue. Because if your 'disability' is the foundation of your culture and status you're not going to change and will prevent others from doing so.

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 03:37:44 PM

The problem here is that for psychology, "therapy session" can include just about anything.

Wow, so taking a hot steaming odious crap can be a "therapy session"?

No.

A game is meant to be fun, that is its purpose. A 'therapy session" is designed to provide psychological therapy, which may or may not be fun. Ask your girlfriend if she plays games with her child patients in order to have fun or in order to generate entertaining shared experiences which will allow her to gain insight into her patient and thus improve the chances that some therapeutic benefit will come out of the session.

(And yes, I've seen your schtick long enough to know that you want to try and argumentatively demonstrate through obfuscative "logic" that taking a hot steaming odious crap can indeed be psychologically therapeutic. So let's just skip that.)

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2021, 12:06:29 AM

Quote from: jhkim on April 02, 2021, 08:37:09 PMAs far as I have seen, there is no RPG published that would make me afraid for harm to my kid. There are some with inappropriate material, but I think that's a different question.

I've seen a few now in the last year alone that I think you should at least be cautious around, and a few that you should be concerned around. These are the ones that push some agenda though. Sometimes subtly, more often very not subtly.

I think ANY RPG touting itself as "Therapy" is dangerous on way too many levels.

Can you cite which specific RPGs you're talking about here?

Quote from: Pat on April 01, 2021, 03:02:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 12:06:02 PM
This seems like previous views I've had to struggle with - especially from the 1980s. As it was explained to me, playing an RPG might *seem* safe - but actually it was playing with fire. Some RPGs were run and played safely - but if I wasn't careful, the DM could slip in some serious psychological stuff into my game, and I could go too far, become addicted and spiral into a warped and unhealthy fantasy world. This is ​the view dramatized in the novel and movie "Mazes and Monsters".

Another reason to hate Tom Hanks.

And don't forget Blackleaf.

NO! NOT BLACKLEAF!

I'm not especially impressed by most modern legitimate psychology.

But holy fuck is it hugely dangerous to start telling people that playing an RPG is the same as getting professional therapeutic help!

edited to add: in fact, pretty much any therapy that has "you're fine just the way you are" or "anything that's wrong with you is not your responsibility" is worse than useless, it's harmful.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 06, 2021, 06:06:46 AMedited to add: in fact, pretty much any therapy that has "you're fine just the way you are" or "anything that's wrong with you is not your responsibility" is worse than useless, it's harmful.

What an incredibly bigoted statement to make. Everyone knows heart disease and diabetes are racist constructs created by the white man to oppress minorities. Eat more junk food, I say, and to hell with caring about obesity! Viva la doughnuts!

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 06, 2021, 06:06:46 AM
I'm not especially impressed by most modern legitimate psychology.

But holy fuck is it hugely dangerous to start telling people that playing an RPG is the same as getting professional therapeutic help!

edited to add: in fact, pretty much any therapy that has "you're fine just the way you are" or "anything that's wrong with you is not your responsibility" is worse than useless, it's harmful.

I'm not sure, because I don't generally waste my time with games written by morons, but so far I don't know of any game that has gone quite that far.  It's only a matter of time.  Near as I can tell, we are still at the "Pretend that this session is a supplement to professional therapy." Which is at the stage of telling the GM and the players to engage in counter-productive behavior that is likely to set back any gains made from professional help, but is at least not pretending to be a complete substitute for it.   Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think going that next step might open up someone to a lawsuit, or at least have a license board come down on them hard.

A professional told me that when dealing with trauma victims and the way their thinking can get twisted, it requires about 20 times of hearing the exact right thing to counter 1 time of hearing the exact wrong thing.  A big part of useful modern therapy is getting people to understand what they are responsible for and can fix versus what they can't do anything about, and thus must accept.  Normal people, when a game or the GM tells them something exactly wrong, they sense at some level that it is off.  Maybe has some nuance of truth badly expressed, but still off.  Telling a  trauma sufferer those kind of things in a game, billed as an adjunct to therapy, is basically ensuring that they will need to stay in therapy that much longer to reverse it.  Running that kind of thing would basically be abusive.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2021, 09:27:32 AM
Near as I can tell, we are still at the "Pretend that this session is a supplement to professional therapy." Which is at the stage of telling the GM and the players to engage in counter-productive behavior that is likely to set back any gains made from professional help, but is at least not pretending to be a complete substitute for it.   Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think going that next step might open up someone to a lawsuit, or at least have a license board come down on them hard.

Similar to my previous question - other than the yet-unpublished Kickstarter cited in the OP, are there any other games we are talking about?

Quote from: jhkim on April 06, 2021, 12:46:50 PM
Similar to my previous question - other than the yet-unpublished Kickstarter cited in the OP, are there any other games we are talking about?

See my previous post for my answer to that.  It's about not wasting my time.  I'm going off the avowed intent of the games from their blurbs, design notes, etc.  Then I stop paying attention to them. 

I will say that any game that has rules about using an X-card is probably flirting with this problem.  Maybe over the line, maybe not.  I'd have to buy the game and see exactly what they say, which would not only be a waste of my time but also in some cases be giving money to morons.  (It's always possible that an "X-card" rule isn't what it is billed to be, isn't about "safety" at all, and in execution is nothing more than a cue card.  However, if the designer is billing it as a safety feature, I know their intent sucks even if their execution happily avoids most of the problems.)

You want to go back and answer the questions from me that you've evaded so far?

Edit:  Just as an addendum, I want to add that in general I categorically reject your attempt to frame this entire discussion to suit yourself.  I think others are getting some distinctions that I have made which you have ignored by attempting such framing.  I don't feel the need to explain that in more detail, because I think it is apparent to everyone reading this that it is so.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 06, 2021, 02:14:29 PM
..........I will say that any game that has rules about using an X-card is probably flirting with this problem.  Maybe over the line, maybe not.  I'd have to buy the game and see exactly what they say, which would not only be a waste of my time but also in some cases be giving money to morons...........

I think this is an admirable rule of thumb. Much like the storyteller sequential GM, I know I will not enjoy the type of game the writer intends so I will not waste money on it (or anything else by the same author or for the same system)