Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:31:41 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 11, 2021, 08:59:52 AM
Indeed. It also vastly limits usefulness of those damned wheels overall - considering Native Americans were able to design child toys with wheels, but without horses there were limited usefulness for adult size.

QuoteWhat..? You mean Apaches riding across the plains with Henry rifles wasn't a common occurrence until a few hundred years after they met the Europeans? Surely you jest, sir!

The people writing this game probably don't even know the current map of Europe has only been around for like 20 years, if that.

I must say that's would be good augury for this game - if they will just add horses without explanation because of Western tropes, or not.

At a guess... terrain has some factor in why they did not make use of the wheel more. Wheels are not very practical on rough terrain, or even moderate terrain. Great for flat stretches and plains. But approaching useless as you get into real wilderness. For the wheel to become useful you need eventually paths cleared or actual roads. And someone to make a connection that wheels can make moving materials easier.

Also keep in mind that even long after being introduced to wheels and wagons that alot of tribes never adopted it. Probably for that pesky terrain reason.

Incidentally added to this is the free rider problem. Wheels work best with roads. Roads are expensive to build and maintain. If you build a road anyone can use it. Bad enough if it's just random travellers who haven't contributed and use it to move in and settle good nearby land. It is even worse if an enemy army can use it to march across your territory.

For a primitive society, even if you had the theoretical knowledge of the wheel and the basic resources to build a road it still wouldn't necessarily be obvious whether roads and wheels would be a worthwhile endeavour.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:15:12 PM
LOL "germanic". No.
Greco-Roman and Christian sure. Other than destroying the Roman Empire there's not much else the Germans contributed, at least until the Reformation. But the roots of the West's Success were the Greeks, Romans and Jews (via Christianity).

Ehhh.  There's an argument to be made that the political system and philosophy of England (which definitely drove the emergent political systems of North America) owes something to the Norse/Germanic Althing and other concepts.  The Normans brought a blend of European and northern ideas which can be argued to have been vital to the growth of the quintessential English "character."  And England was, in many ways, the father of American culture.  So the Germanic cultures had more influence that you give them credit for...

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:49:38 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:30:40 PMI can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

And even there, the fundamental result for the "humane" part has to be "the Aztecs (or whoever) suddenly develop values that are LIKE THE EUROPEANS for no reason".

But instead of saying "this is fantasy wish fulfillment, we know it would never have been that way", the entire POINT of this type of game is to try to claim that the world would be a utopia if the "evil white man" had just disappeared. Very very dangerous thinking.

1: I think it could happen. There were some fairly advanced civilizations in the americas. Problem is. Each seemed to be in one way or another somehow very specialized and whatever advanced techniques they used. Were practically one-trick ponies. And then they die out or were exterminated by other civilizations. Much like say the mongols or vikings. They excelled in some areas but were oft way behind in practically everything else for one reason or another.

The main problem, and the REASON why those relatively advanced cultures collapse very quickly, is a lack of certain fundamental resources that do not exist in the Americas until the Europeans arrive.

Quote
2: Thats a bit harder. But there were some large tribal unions that could have solidified into something more. But never did. It likely would not have been like europe. But likely would have some simmilarities. The Aztecs or Incas could have. But it would be some weird values akin to say feudal Japan.

The Japanese had Buddhism at least. But the point is that the gods of the Aztecs (and to a lesser extent, the Incas) were monstrous motherfuckers. They had no advanced philosophies of the types of concepts presented by Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddha, the patriarchs of Judaism, Zoroaster, the greek philosophers, and Christ. 

Assuming you magically gave them the resources what you'd have is essentially the most unimaginably evil empire in human history, bathing the world in blood, unless you change them to be more European in values. Which essentially destroys the notion that they were better off without the evil-white-man.

Of course, their answer to this is to whitewash everything, pretend that the Aztecs were sweethearts (all those thousands of human sacrifices a year were happy volunteers, don't you know, and it was good for the environment!), the plains tribes never ever engaged in warfare, there was no crime, starvation, mass poverty (the Aztec and Inca lower classes sucked), and brutal brutal violence at every level, because all those are things only the 'evil white man' brought.
So in other words, the solution left is to make Native Americans non-humans, mythical avatars of moral perfection. The "Noble Savage", in fact. Some leftist tropes never die, they just switch dresses.

Interesting thought.  Being westerners, or at least mostly influenced by western culture, our very definition of Good and Evil are shaped by that culture.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:30:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 11, 2021, 12:53:59 PM
This is a science fantasy game, where there are purple marks on people, animals, and plants since the asteroid strike - granting superhuman powers, like targeting hover drones with your clairvoyance. Is your complaint about Gamma World that realistically radiation won't make plants into sentient thinking characters?

I can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

I think the awis/asteroid strike is pretty directly comparable to vibranium. It has strange effects on plants and animals including purple spots, and grants superhuman powers. Superhuman powers are effectively magic, and especially since unlike vibranium, the powers can be mental powers like clairvoyance, it seems like it gives even more leeway to justify advancements. Really, I don't get your response - the awis is exactly like what you say. You're saying *plants* could become thinking beings with weird radiation, but *native Americans* couldn't become civilized beings even with superhuman mental powers?

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:15:12 PM
Well, culture AND the fact that America without the columbian exchange was missing a lot of vital ingredients that would be necessary for the development of a stable advanced civilization: like a better food source than maize, the horse, etc.

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:49:38 PM
There were some fairly advanced civilizations in the americas. Problem is. Each seemed to be in one way or another somehow very specialized and whatever advanced techniques they used. Were practically one-trick ponies. And then they die out or were exterminated by other civilizations. Much like say the mongols or vikings. They excelled in some areas but were oft way behind in practically everything else for one reason or another.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
The main problem, and the REASON why those relatively advanced cultures collapse very quickly, is a lack of certain fundamental resources that do not exist in the Americas until the Europeans arrive.

The main four civilizations I think we're talking about are the Mayans, the Mississippians, the Aztecs, and the Incas. I don't know if I'd call them one-trick ponies, but they definitely have a different set of advances compared to the standard of more familiar early Mediterranean and Asian civilizations. The Incas had advanced road-building, agriculture, pottery, textiles, city planning, and social structures. However, they lacked iron-working, the wheel, and writing - which were developed much much earlier in Eurasia.

I disagree with Pundit that other food sources and the horse are required for advanced civilization. American Indians had really great plant agriculture. Maize, potatoes, and beans were competitive with what Europe had to offer. (Plus extras like chocolate, peppers, quinoa, etc.) You can see this because long after European contact, natives and even colonizers were still eating these plants. They were really lacking in domestic animals like the horse, cow, and pig -- but I don't see that those are necessary for advanced civilization.

I think that particularly with mental superpowers, they could develop iron-working, the wheel, and writing without using horses.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
The Japanese had Buddhism at least. But the point is that the gods of the Aztecs (and to a lesser extent, the Incas) were monstrous motherfuckers. They had no advanced philosophies of the types of concepts presented by Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddha, the patriarchs of Judaism, Zoroaster, the greek philosophers, and Christ. 

Assuming you magically gave them the resources what you'd have is essentially the most unimaginably evil empire in human history, bathing the world in blood, unless you change them to be more European in values. Which essentially destroys the notion that they were better off without the evil-white-man.

First of all, I think the extent of American Indian philosophies is largely unknown, since they didn't have writing. But you're contradicting yourself here. You note Confucius, Lao Tzu, and Buddha as advanced philosophies -- but then you claim that Europe is the only possible source of advancement. I think figures like Buddha shows that Europe is *not* required. *If* the Americas were to have many centuries of advancement with no European contact, then it's possible that they would develop writing on their own - and then have philosophers like Lao Tzu and/or Buddha.

The Aztecs were bastards (widely considered so even by other peoples of the area), but I don't think the Incans were particularly worse than the ancient (pre-Christian) Assyrians, Saxons, Mongols, or many other peoples of Eurasia.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:27:12 PM
This fucking site: every day I get a handful of reports of people bitching about how they didn't like something someone said to them, like I would give a fuck, and yet not one report on the neo-nazi bullshit.

What can I say, I am a consistent non reporter.

In my experience calling down the mods never gets you what you want anyway.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 11, 2021, 08:00:50 PM
There's an argument to be made that the political system and philosophy of England (which definitely drove the emergent political systems of North America) owes something to the Norse/Germanic Althing and other concepts.  The Normans brought a blend of European and northern ideas which can be argued to have been vital to the growth of the quintessential English "character."  And England was, in many ways, the father of American culture.  So the Germanic cultures had more influence that you give them credit for...

That's pretty much the angle I was coming from. The early kings of Europe were Germanic chieftans who adopted Christianity and various Roman elements.

One of the clearest signs of Germanic influence is how many English words derive from German, including the names of the week (Tyr's day, Woden's day, Thor's day, Fria's day). A secondary sign is the familiarity of Germanic mythology falling just slightly behind Greco-Roman mythology and the Bible in terms of familiarity (to the point that it was something Tolkien felt comfortable pulling from in creating Middle Earth).

Also, even though it's not the reason I mentioned them, I also wouldn't discount the value of tearing down the corrupt and over-centralized Roman power centers and the resulting benefits to society from more localized power and the necessity and freedom to innovate. Clearing out corruption often requires the political equivalent of a forest fire to clear away all the rotten dead wood so that new growth can occur.

This doesn't mean they're the biggest element of the European potpourri; but I'd definitely put them at numer three after Judeo-Christian and Roman cultural elements.

Which is the other element that makes the racist idiocy of games like this one we've been discussing so tone deaf... their ridiculous notion that European culture is some "always has been, always will be" monoculture that arose all on its own instead the truth that European (and, by extension, American) culture is actually a fusion of multiple cultures into a whole greater than the sum of its parts (basically Scott Adams' Talent Stack on a societal level).

Quote from: Omega on March 11, 2021, 07:49:38 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:30:40 PMI can imagine some kind of weird radiation that could make plants into thinking characters. But there's no conditions in the past, without adding "magic" or "alien level scifi" or "vibranium", that allows the Americas to develop an advanced and humane civilization without the Columbian Exchange.

And even there, the fundamental result for the "humane" part has to be "the Aztecs (or whoever) suddenly develop values that are LIKE THE EUROPEANS for no reason".

But instead of saying "this is fantasy wish fulfillment, we know it would never have been that way", the entire POINT of this type of game is to try to claim that the world would be a utopia if the "evil white man" had just disappeared. Very very dangerous thinking.

1: I think it could happen. There were some fairly advanced civilizations in the americas. Problem is. Each seemed to be in one way or another somehow very specialized and whatever advanced techniques they used. Were practically one-trick ponies. And then they die out or were exterminated by other civilizations. Much like say the mongols or vikings. They excelled in some areas but were oft way behind in practically everything else for one reason or another.

One of the main reasons they were one trick ponies is because they didn't know each other existed. That's another serious limitation of the Americas -- it lacks a Silk Road equivalent, an east-west path along a very long stretch of the continent. The reason that's important is because migration of flora and fauna tends to be along bands of latitude where the climate and other conditions are roughly comparable, and that has a major influence on the spread of civilization because they're heavily dependent on their domesticated animals and crops to support their populations and empires. That kind of interchange happened easily happened across Afroeurasia, but there's nothing equivalent in the Americas, which stretch north and south not east and west, narrow to a tiny bottleneck in the middle, and have massive natural barriers. The major pockets of early American civilization -- for instance the Inca in the south, the Aztecs in the middle, and the various nations in the north -- were never able to set up trade with each other, and didn't even seem to realize each other existed. It's amazing the civilizations in the Americas got as far as they did, because the biggest multiplier of learning and technology is interaction with more people, and they were stuck in tiny pockets.

Though there's a fairly simple way for the Americas to develop into a highly advanced technological civilization without European colonization: Just wipe out the rest of the world. The Americas were off to a slow start and once in the race they were hobbled by local limitations, but they're still people. If some kind of extinction event takes out the human population of the Old World, the New would have kept advancing, and they'd eventually reach technological heights. The question is how long it would take, and how radically the civilization would change in the process. Aztecs with space travel certainly wouldn't be anything we'd recognize as "Aztec", for instance. Which loses the alt-history audience, who tend to want twists on established history that leave lots of familiar touchstones, not something unrecognizable.

To elaborate on what I said earlier.  Here's how I would do it.

Current thinking seems to be that the germanic raiders of the late roman era such as the Saxons, Jutes, etc, were probably closer to viking boat building techniques then we used to think.  There seems to have been an expansion at that time which then stopped, likely due to political turmoil in northern europe before commencing again with the viking age.

So lets say it never stops.  This might just get the vikings to Newfoundland a few centuries earlier, may the late 6th century at the earliest.  Even then there's not a huge amount of motivation to go all the way to North America to set up colonies.  It's too far away for effective trade given that what it has (Mostly furs) can be found much closer to home in Eastern Europe. But the vikings did at least make an effort to make a colony at least once in our time line so it's not out of the question.  It's unlikely you'd ever get a particularly large number of Norse in North America but you might get enough for them to have an outsize influence compared to their numbers.And you could end up with a kind of syncretic Norse/Native American religion.  A great plains Genghis Khan burning the cities of the Atlantic coast in the name of Raven/Odin. 

You could go back even earlier and have Carthage defeat Rome.  This could mean that a victorious Carthage doesn't quite expand as far into Europe as the Romans as they're centred further south.  You might have an incentive for northern europe boat building to expand even further as they want to get down to Iberia for the rich trade goods the Carhaginans have to offer them.  And the Carthagians are more interested in sea voyages themselves so there's a remote chance they might advance their own boat building to cross the Atlantic from Spain.

So in this timeline of Carthage triumphant we get a period of ships from Carthage crossing the Atlantic, where they find gold in Meso-American, and perhaps follow the tradewinds north up the coast of North America and take the Gulf Stream back.  You get an earlier Columbian exchange.

Now let's say Carthage does not surive any longer than Rome does in our world.  In fact it would likely have less of a European presence, so it could likely be that what advanced civilisation there is in Europe is more devastated by the age of migrations and the Huns end up burning and plundering through the Italian and Greek peninsulas devastating much of what's left of Ancient Greek culture.

The rump of Carthage itself gets wiped out by one or another barbarian tribe within a century or two and voyages across the Atlantic cease.

You now have quite a long time for the Americas to recover from disease and for the technological benefits of the Colombian exchange (and possibly some cultural ones) to percolate through the continent. Europe meanwhile is held back by centuries.  Of course the civilsations that arise in this timeline won't exactly be Incan or Aztec as we would recognise them.

Quote from: TJS on March 12, 2021, 12:29:06 AM
You could go back even earlier and have Carthage defeat Rome.  This could mean that a victorious Carthage doesn't quite expand as far into Europe as the Romans as they're centred further south.  You might have an incentive for northern europe boat building to expand even further as they want to get down to Iberia for the rich trade goods the Carhaginans have to offer them.  And the Carthagians are more interested in sea voyages themselves so there's a remote chance they might advance their own boat building to cross the Atlantic from Spain.

So in this timeline of Carthage triumphant we get a period of ships from Carthage crossing the Atlantic, where they find gold in Meso-American, and perhaps follow the tradewinds north up the coast of North America and take the Gulf Stream back.  You get an earlier Columbian exchange.

Now let's say Carthage does not surive any longer than Rome does in our world.  In fact it would likely have less of a European presence, so it could likely be that what advanced civilisation there is in Europe is more devastated by the age of migrations and the Huns end up burning and plundering through the Italian and Greek peninsulas devastating much of what's left of Ancient Greek culture.

The rump of Carthage itself gets wiped out by one or another barbarian tribe within a century or two and voyages across the Atlantic cease.

You now have quite a long time for the Americas to recover from disease and for the technological benefits of the Colombian exchange (and possibly some cultural ones) to percolate through the continent. Europe meanwhile is held back by centuries.  Of course the civilsations that arise in this timeline won't exactly be Incan or Aztec as we would recognise them.

Yes, this is very close to the "Ezcalli" timeline from GURPS Alternate Earths that I mentioned in a previous post. This allows introducing the Columbian exchange much earlier, when the differential between Europe and the New World was not as great. They also noted that introducing the potato could throw a wrench into European development. The potato doesn't require mills or large-scale organization of harvest and threshing, so it allows fragmenting into smaller tribes and clans. Here's a brief summary -

https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/doku.php?id=alternate_history:gurps#ezcalli

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 11, 2021, 11:28:02 PM
(Re: roots of European culture)
Which is the other element that makes the racist idiocy of games like this one we've been discussing so tone deaf... their ridiculous notion that European culture is some "always has been, always will be" monoculture that arose all on its own instead the truth that European (and, by extension, American) culture is actually a fusion of multiple cultures into a whole greater than the sum of its parts (basically Scott Adams' Talent Stack on a societal level).

I don't see anything in the Coyote & Crow kickstarter that implies a European monoculture. They don't have any mention of Europe and the rest of the Old World -- it's left as unknown territory in the game. Since you claim you haven't even read the kickstarter, claims like this seem pretty ridiculous to me.

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 02:41:09 AM
Yes, this is very close to the "Ezcalli" timeline from GURPS Alternate Earths that I mentioned in a previous post. This allows introducing the Columbian exchange much earlier, when the differential between Europe and the New World was not as great. They also noted that introducing the potato could throw a wrench into European development. The potato doesn't require mills or large-scale organization of harvest and threshing, so it allows fragmenting into smaller tribes and clans. Here's a brief summary -

James C Scott writes about this in "The Art of Not Being Governed" (It's about South East Asia and talks about Sweet Potatoes but the principle is the same).

Basically states like big monocultures of grains like wheat or rice that have to be stored.  This makes them easy to keep track of and to tax.

Root vegetables are grown in the ground, are a lot easier to hide, and can be eaten after you dig them up.  They're a lot harder to keep track of.  Scott writes how in South East Asia states would often have trouble maintaining their population as people would flee to marginal land such as hills or swamps where the state had a lot of trouble projecting it's authority and grow sweet potato.  They were thus free from taxes and generally had a better diet (less monoculture).   This in turn lend to  cycle of states engaging in war partly in order to capture slaves and maintain their population.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 07:27:12 PM
This fucking site: every day I get a handful of reports of people bitching about how they didn't like something someone said to them, like I would give a fuck, and yet not one report on the neo-nazi bullshit.

This is a free speech site. Nobody needs to be bitching to you, nor reporting wrongthink.

And you can keep banning all the "neo-nazi bullshit" and your detractors will keep calling you a naughty nutzi forever and ever.

EDIT: Since race based scientific analysis is effectively forbidden, the nature/nurture question is going to stick with us and be plagued with pseudo-science and bias.

I may disagree with some of the Pundit's politics, but he's earned my respect as a free-speech advocate, and (in my opinion) a man of integrity.  Free speech doesn't mean tolerating or advocating hate speech, and he doesn't.  Or I wouldn't be here.

Quote from: TJS on March 12, 2021, 02:59:36 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 12, 2021, 02:41:09 AM
Yes, this is very close to the "Ezcalli" timeline from GURPS Alternate Earths that I mentioned in a previous post. This allows introducing the Columbian exchange much earlier, when the differential between Europe and the New World was not as great. They also noted that introducing the potato could throw a wrench into European development. The potato doesn't require mills or large-scale organization of harvest and threshing, so it allows fragmenting into smaller tribes and clans. Here's a brief summary -

James C Scott writes about this in "The Art of Not Being Governed" (It's about South East Asia and talks about Sweet Potatoes but the principle is the same).

Basically states like big monocultures of grains like wheat or rice that have to be stored.  This makes them easy to keep track of and to tax.

Root vegetables are grown in the ground, are a lot easier to hide, and can be eaten after you dig them up.  They're a lot harder to keep track of.  Scott writes how in South East Asia states would often have trouble maintaining their population as people would flee to marginal land such as hills or swamps where the state had a lot of trouble projecting it's authority and grow sweet potato.  They were thus free from taxes and generally had a better diet (less monoculture).   This in turn lend to  cycle of states engaging in war partly in order to capture slaves and maintain their population.

Which, to bring it back to the OP, lets us imagine a community of happy, freedom-loving (within the constraints of enforced observance of each others' narcissistic need for approbation, and of respect for a partial and biased assessment of the requirements of the natural environment), grossly overweight but physically superbly capable (and amorously successful) sweet potato munchers, bravely defying the Colonial Governor who controls the coast from their mobility-assist-accessible mountain fastnesses under the inclusive leadership of the great Beauregard Batata.

The OSR version could be "Bellies and Bali". Although I'd probably prefer the d100 version, Fatquest.

Quote from: Brigman on March 12, 2021, 04:50:38 AM
Free speech doesn't mean tolerating or advocating hate speech

You don't know what that term means, apparently.  That's exactly what free speech means.  It's Pundit's place, so he can ban whoever he wants.  I certainly won't miss either of the two that were banned.  But free speech means defeating speech you don't like with more speech, not less.  But this is an RPG forum, so I can understand why he doesn't want racialist BS here, just because beating it back would take focus away from the purpose of this forum.  But, by definition, free speech means tolerating all speech.  So you are just wrong.