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Author Topic: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast  (Read 7431 times)

BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2019, 09:19:30 AM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1072910
From your previous post-



How would a children's cartoon portray He-Man and his "boy lover"?


I've been subtly trying to sent you hints to stop asking that, but fine: the answer is that it wouldn't. Pedophilia is evil. Obviously love interests would be in the same age demographic.

BTW In New Adventures and the 2002 reboot, Prince Adam is written as a teenage boy.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2019, 01:10:34 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073071
I've been subtly trying to sent you hints to stop asking that, but fine: the answer is that it wouldn't. Pedophilia is evil. Obviously love interests would be in the same age demographic.

Exactly. There is a line to be drawn, especially for children's cartoons. Likewise I do not think even the level of heterosexuality portrayed in Ralph Bakshi's Fire and Ice (To pull an example from a similar genre, animated sword and sorcery) would be appropriate.
Not because it's hetero or homosexual, but the content matter (implied rape, near nudity and sexuality) is inappropriate for the target age range.

Quote
BTW In New Adventures and the 2002 reboot, Prince Adam is written as a teenage boy.


The 2002 reboot was quite good. Adam came across to me as more young adult than teenager.
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Armchair Gamer

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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2019, 02:12:45 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073092
The 2002 reboot was quite good. Adam came across to me as more young adult than teenager.

   2002 explicitly starts on his 16th birthday. That was the original intent in the 1980s series bible, but sort of fell by the wayside like the Earth origins of Beast Man, Evil-Lyn, and Tri-Klops. New Adventures (*sigh*) actually fits most naturally after the Filmation series (and, I argued once, after the motion picture if one's trying to create a Grand Unified Continuity, which was just barely possible in the 1980s and has become impossible since).

CRKrueger

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« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2019, 10:09:55 AM »
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

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Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

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Ratman_tf

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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2019, 07:30:09 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073226
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?

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Omega

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« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2019, 03:34:51 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073226
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?

That is allways the point. These hacks can't actually write a new character. They can only take what someone else created and twist it into their "vision". As one black professor noted. This then generates resentment towards whatever the hell their "vision" is because they co-opted something established. And it is insulting to whomever the "vision" is supposed to be "representing" because all it is is tokenism. And half the time its also more a caricature.

BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2019, 12:43:14 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073226
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?


1) He doesn't. But... I talked with a friend about the 80s show and he said he always thought he-man was in the closet. The show even has a noted gay following.

For comparison, I remember watching Hercules the Legendary Journeys and I'm pretty sure Hercules had two or three girlfriends per season. Writing in just one boyfriend per season too wouldn't have ruined the show.

2) I don't see why not. I don't think any of the entertainment companies have any faith that would work, though. There have been numerous opportunities in recent original works to do so, but almost never taken or at most implied or only for minor characters.

E.g. Loudhouse, which routinely airs for hours daily on Nickelodeon, has a gay couple and one of the main character's ten sisters (the rockstar) gives a valentine to a girl at school.

It's weird. I mean, Bo from Lost Girl did well enough as a canonically bi protagonist in a love triangle with wolfboy and doctorgirl. That show ran for five seasons.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2019, 03:18:06 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073370
1) He doesn't. But... I talked with a friend about the 80s show and he said he always thought he-man was in the closet. The show even has a noted gay following.

For comparison, I remember watching Hercules the Legendary Journeys and I'm pretty sure Hercules had two or three girlfriends per season. Writing in just one boyfriend per season too wouldn't have ruined the show.

2) I don't see why not. I don't think any of the entertainment companies have any faith that would work, though. There have been numerous opportunities in recent original works to do so, but almost never taken or at most implied or only for minor characters.

E.g. Loudhouse, which routinely airs for hours daily on Nickelodeon, has a gay couple and one of the main character's ten sisters (the rockstar) gives a valentine to a girl at school.

It's weird. I mean, Bo from Lost Girl did well enough as a canonically bi protagonist in a love triangle with wolfboy and doctorgirl. That show ran for five seasons.

Once upon a time, I would have agreed with you. If a writer wanted to make Hercules Bi, I wouldn't care.

But it's all politicized and "woke" now. Whenever I hear about a "progressive" character, I roll my eyes. It means bad writing, cliched progressive buzzwords, and a pandering attitude towards minority characters.

Good stories told well transcend all this shoehorned progressive horseshit.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2019, 04:48:09 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073390
Once upon a time, I would have agreed with you. If a writer wanted to make Hercules Bi, I wouldn't care.

But it's all politicized and "woke" now. Whenever I hear about a "progressive" character, I roll my eyes. It means bad writing, cliched progressive buzzwords, and a pandering attitude towards minority characters.

Good stories told well transcend all this shoehorned progressive horseshit.


The political opposition isn't any better at telling stories either. Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are both being ardently defended for depicting violent rape, false rape accusations, etc as key plot points, despite the manga being widely panned by the community prior to the anime airing. (A few hundred anime air each year and they're mostly garbage that is quickly forgotten.)

I think the best way to satisfy both sides is to produce a story where the heroes are flamboyantly queer and the villains are rapists and false rape accusers.

CRKrueger

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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2019, 02:23:19 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073408
The political opposition isn't any better at telling stories either. Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are both being ardently defended for depicting violent rape, false rape accusations, etc as key plot points, despite the manga being widely panned by the community prior to the anime airing. (A few hundred anime air each year and they're mostly garbage that is quickly forgotten.)

I think the best way to satisfy both sides is to produce a story where the heroes are flamboyantly queer and the villains are rapists and false rape accusers.

...and that's exactly the problem.

You're pulling out a list of boxes that have to be checked and then saying "just write a story with those".  It's no different than TV where the story and characters are dictated only by marketing, demographics, etc by the bean counters.  You get sub-standard crap work.

The character has to be compelling for some reason other than color and the genitals of them and their sexual partners.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2019, 02:58:43 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073524
The character has to be compelling for some reason other than color and the genitals of them and their sexual partners.

And so we get these nitwits "making" established characters gay or bi or whatever, because they apparently can't write an interesting gay or bi character from scratch. They mooch off the popularity of an established character rather than putting in the effort and risk of creating a new character.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2019, 04:15:22 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073524
...and that's exactly the problem.

You're pulling out a list of boxes that have to be checked and then saying "just write a story with those".  It's no different than TV where the story and characters are dictated only by marketing, demographics, etc by the bean counters.  You get sub-standard crap work.

The character has to be compelling for some reason other than color and the genitals of them and their sexual partners.
So do you agree with my assessment that Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are dross?

Overlord and That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime have main characters who are inhuman monsters devoid of sex organs. I certainly found the huge cast of characters in each much more interesting than the one-notes in the other shows I mentioned.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073526
And so we get these nitwits "making" established characters gay or bi or whatever, because they apparently can't write an interesting gay or bi character from scratch. They mooch off the popularity of an established character rather than putting in the effort and risk of creating a new character.


The Greek heroes were already bi, and a number of heroes in lesser known cultural myths like Gilgamesh were sometimes implied to be. Why not adapt that?

As a matter of fact, I found a Mordred/Lancelot novel which didn't seem half-bad.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2019, 05:22:32 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073535
The Greek heroes were already bi, and a number of heroes in lesser known cultural myths like Gilgamesh were sometimes implied to be. Why not adapt that?

The why not is in my post.
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BoxCrayonTales

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« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2019, 08:31:31 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073541
The why not is in my post.

So you're saying that all LGBTQ+ characters in modern media have to be original characters and established LGBTQ+ characters like Hercules, Loki, and Dorian Gray are off-limits because the writer is mooching off their popularity?

I disagree. I think you are moving the goalposts because, as you stated previously, you believe that nowadays including LGBTQ+ characters at all is a shoehorned political statement. In most cases it is and that offends LGBTQ+ viewers too. However, that doesn't apply to our current argument because it concerns the writing of a hypothetical story.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073390
Once upon a time, I would have agreed with you. If a writer wanted to make Hercules Bi, I wouldn't care.

But it's all politicized and "woke" now. Whenever I hear about a "progressive" character, I roll my eyes. It means bad writing, cliched progressive buzzwords, and a pandering attitude towards minority characters.

Good stories told well transcend all this shoehorned progressive horseshit.

Japan doesn't have LGBTQ+ rights, yet their media includes whole genres predicated on unrealistically fetishing LGBTQ+ characters for the enjoyment of straight cis consumers. Boy's love, girl's love, traps, futanari, the list goes on.

You are claiming that politics has ruined LGBTQ+ storylines forever, despite the fact that there are currently countless novels and fanfiction which feature amazing characterization of LGBTQ+ characters. Based entirely on your political statements, I suspect you have been poisoned against the idea by the press. But I could easily be wrong. Are there any LGBTQ+ characters in fiction that don't offend you, that you actively enjoy reading their adventures?

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2019, 09:53:20 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073563
So you're saying



*Edit*, to be fair, I should address this specific question:

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073535
So do you agree with my assessment that Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are dross?

I haven't seen either, and so I have limited opinions, and they'd be based on other people's opinions. So I don't really know.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 11:20:40 PM by Ratman_tf »
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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