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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: BoxCrayonTales on November 22, 2018, 09:24:18 PM

Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 22, 2018, 09:24:18 PM
I watched it and thought it was fairly generic. The only thing that makes it standout is that the majority of the cast is coded as gay or trans. The creator has publicly admitted she made the show to convince kids that queerness is normal and common.

I don't think the show is going to last very long. The overwhelming majority of children are not queer and may be ignorant of what that is, so this will just sail over their heads and probably just fail to appeal due to the very much non-childish plot involving child soldiers and colonialism.

A pity. The show isn't terrible, but it's trying to force an agenda rather than make money. That's always a recipe for failure in the capitalist marketplace.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on November 24, 2018, 09:09:04 AM
The main character is oddly unlikeable? Just the feeling keep getting. And more than a little incompetent as well.

Overall the art is good. The animation though has some glaring issues of shortcuts and I am not sure what, but there are notable moments where things area little, or alot off. It also wants to ape Teen Titans a little too much.

The show will probably just scrape by and get a second season unless they totally auger it into the ground.

But yeah it does come across as LGBT-Ra at times. I think some of the themes would have worked if they werent so heavy handed. And that may kill the show despite shill reviews praising it as the second coming.

Same is going on with the new Doctor Who. It's about as subtle as several bricks to the head and whoooeee do they have something against white males or what? Shame as otherwise it could have been alot of fun. But with the current showrunners this one may not get a second season unless BBC steps in.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on November 24, 2018, 10:36:45 AM
I totally have nothing against the writers shipping Adora/Catra, but I think a love triangle would have been more marketable.

She-Ra is supposed to be an Amazon/Valkyrie right? The third vertex could be an effeminate boy, inverting the typical gender stereotypes of fantasy couples.

Like Xena/Gabrielle if Gabrielle was spoony bard Gabriel.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: HappyDaze on November 24, 2018, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: Omega;1065891
The main character is oddly unlikeable? Just the feeling keep getting. And more than a little incompetent as well.
This has become normalized in kids shows today. It's supposed to be an effort to actually make the character more relatable in the eyes of kids that are worried about others liking them and feel less than competent themselves. At some point, most kids get these feelings, so making your on-screen heroes suffer through such only to win (every damn time) is supposed to show that things are just fine. It's something that won't necessarily appeal to adults and isn't meant to.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on November 24, 2018, 07:06:22 PM
Quote from: Omega;1065891
The main character is oddly unlikeable? Just the feeling keep getting. And more than a little incompetent as well.

Overall the art is good. The animation though has some glaring issues of shortcuts and I am not sure what, but there are notable moments where things area little, or alot off. It also wants to ape Teen Titans a little too much.

The show will probably just scrape by and get a second season unless they totally auger it into the ground.

But yeah it does come across as LGBT-Ra at times. I think some of the themes would have worked if they werent so heavy handed. And that may kill the show despite shill reviews praising it as the second coming.

Same is going on with the new Doctor Who. It's about as subtle as several bricks to the head and whoooeee do they have something against white males or what? Shame as otherwise it could have been alot of fun. But with the current showrunners this one may not get a second season unless BBC steps in.

Adora is the only one I actually like, although my daughter likes Catra, because cat.

We watched 4 episodes now I think? And it's funny how political it is and how accidentally truthful it is. Hordak's Horde is relatively the same, but you can easily see how Lefties will compare it to the political Right. Which means the rainbow hued Princesses would be the Left.

Which are portrayed as constantly trying to out purity each other and tear each other down.

It's glorious.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 24, 2018, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: Omega;1065891
It also wants to ape Teen Titans a little too much.

I assume you mean Teen Titans Go!
God, I'm sick of that style. It's the difference between a children's story that adults can enjoy with them, and a brain-dead cartoon that will mesmerize the kids while you go have a half-hour to yourself.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on November 25, 2018, 02:31:02 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1065930
I assume you mean Teen Titans Go!
God, I'm sick of that style. It's the difference between a children's story that adults can enjoy with them, and a brain-dead cartoon that will mesmerize the kids while you go have a half-hour to yourself.

I'd argue that the style especially with regard to facial expression is aping Steven Universe.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 25, 2018, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1065960
I'd argue that the style especially with regard to facial expression is aping Steven Universe.

I think both are aping anime comedy.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on November 25, 2018, 04:05:46 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1065965
I think both are aping anime comedy.

Possibly, I don't particularly care for chibi style anime, or anime comedies, so I wouldn't know for sure.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on November 26, 2018, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1065965
I think both are aping anime comedy.

Nope. They are aping the Teen Titans cartoon which was aping anime & anime comedy. Teen Titams Go is... well who the fuck knows what that is. Seems more like they are aping the worst of Powderpuff girls.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on November 26, 2018, 07:31:38 PM
Quote from: Omega;1066182
Nope. They are aping the Teen Titans cartoon which was aping anime & anime comedy. Teen Titams Go is... well who the fuck knows what that is. Seems more like they are aping the worst of Powderpuff girls.

Powderpuff Girls was really good though.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on November 27, 2018, 04:09:49 AM
Not the new one. Its nearly as garbage as Go. As Cartoon Network continues to be taken over by that little clique of tumblr artists it continues to decline.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on November 27, 2018, 04:32:13 AM
Quote from: Omega;1066235
Not the new one. Its nearly as garbage as Go. As Cartoon Network continues to be taken over by that little clique of tumblr artists it continues to decline.

New one?

What new one?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: kosmos1214 on November 27, 2018, 10:15:44 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1065965
I think both are aping anime comedy.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1065967
Possibly, I don't particularly care for chibi style anime, or anime comedies, so I wouldn't know for sure.

Quote from: Omega;1066182
Nope. They are aping the Teen Titans cartoon which was aping anime & anime comedy. Teen Titams Go is... well who the fuck knows what that is. Seems more like they are aping the worst of Powderpuff girls.

Interestingly chibi isn't used near as much in comedy anime as in teen titans go.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Snowman0147 on November 27, 2018, 10:19:05 PM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1066236
New one?

What new one?

Yeah they did a reboot of the powerpuff girls, but instead of saving the city each episode the girls deal with slice of life drama.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: kosmos1214 on November 27, 2018, 10:28:25 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1066333
Yeah they did a reboot of the powerpuff girls, but instead of saving the city each episode the girls deal with slice of life drama.

The power puff girls reboot also went over like A lead duck.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on November 28, 2018, 03:30:25 PM
Quote from: kosmos1214;1066331
Interestingly chibi isn't used near as much in comedy anime as in teen titans go.

Dragon Half was my first exposure to that. According to Fred Patten, who passed away earlier this month, the creators were approached by ADV I think to do more episodes. But the production crew had moved on and divided since. And I kept missing the SD Gundam and Super Robot Wars stuff.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on November 28, 2018, 04:27:34 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1066333
Yeah they did a reboot of the powerpuff girls, but instead of saving the city each episode the girls deal with slice of life drama.

So...there's four PPG now.

Twitch.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on November 29, 2018, 12:39:12 PM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1066467
So...there's four PPG now.

Twitch.

Think so. The original series. Two one-offs. And now this thing called Powderpuff Girls but with less superheroing and more school highjinks and, ass twerking. Because... who the fuck knows why? CN has not acted in a sane manner in years now. Just look at the butcher job they did to this latest TMNT series.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: kosmos1214 on November 30, 2018, 10:28:22 PM
Quote from: Omega;1066458
Dragon Half was my first exposure to that. According to Fred Patten, who passed away earlier this month, the creators were approached by ADV I think to do more episodes. But the production crew had moved on and divided since. And I kept missing the SD Gundam and Super Robot Wars stuff.

Yeah though when the series creator is caught with psychedelic shooms you can see where it could end up that way.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on December 01, 2018, 12:54:44 AM
MD Geist fared better. CPM payed for new animation to fix up the anime and then bankrolled MD Geist 2.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 19, 2019, 05:53:33 PM
In retrospect, the controversy is overblown and the showrunners and mainstream media threw gasoline on it.

So it seems that some people were concerned that Adora was a boyish waif, before the show even came out. The media called then entitled manchildren and pedophiles.

Tumblr artists drew art in support of the show, which generally depicted Adora as more feminine than she is in the actual show.

When the show came out, the media lauded it solely for the cast being all queer rather than the actual writing (which is generally mediocre). The fans now fetishize Adora/Catra (who are both CHILDREN); ironic considering that the media previously mocked critics as pedophiles.

The showrunners mocked the original series (which has a notable LGBT following) and virtued signaled about how diverse they were. Also, they seem to have graduated from the Cal Arts school of terrible design. The animation is atrocious.

Mattel wants nothing to do with the show. All their merchandise has been focused on the 80s cartoons. (Poor poor 00s reboot, we knew ye well. Well, not really.) I expect they will pull the plug as soon as the contract expires and make a new reboot to sell merchandise, and probably hire Studio Mir to animate.

Basically, a bunch of tumblr artists took an established IP and decided to use it as window dressing for their personal tumblr cartoon and didn't care about how this would alienate the existing fans or appeal to anyone who isn't a tumblrite, without even talking to the people who actually own the IP they are licensing. When questioned, they responded with predictable vitriol and hypocrisy.

As far as qualitative criticism goes, I find it trivially easy to shred this show on its own merits. Mostly because it was written by a clearly inexperienced team who didn't really know what they wanted to do besides code the majority cast as LGBT+.

The world building is terrible. We are expected to believe the Horde is at war with the monarchies, yet we rarely see evidence of this beyond lipservice and problems of the week. Both sides are using child soldiers for high ranking positions, which implies either incredible stupidity on the part of Hordak and the monarchy or that the previous conflicts killed off most of the adult soldiers (which in a realistic setting would be a big deal). Yet the child soldiers generally act like teenagers, not spartans or sardukar like you would expect. The world building is just terrible and indicates the writers are completely ignorant of military scifi.

She-Ra is nothing more than an LGBT+ rom-com soap opera masquerading as an edgy kid's show. This makes it fail at all those genres.

It's offensive to heterosexual cisgirls and transgirls because it implicitly assumes you cannot be a strong female character without being gay and butch. Even the SwanQueen pairing in the OUAT fandom felt perfectly natural given Swan and Regina's interactions and many hardships over the first few seasons, and both of them were canonically heterosexual and suffered from a "Cartwright curse" (their every boyfriend was doomed to die).

The Catra/Adora ship is creepy on so many levels. They're kids (pedophilia alert!), they're foster sisters (incest alert!), and child soldiers. Even ignoring that, they have no romantic chemistry. Their "relationship" is forced by the writers to get brownie points from the media (much like how OUAT's later crappier seasons infamously had Red Riding Hood and Dorothy Gale fall in love after knowing each other for all of five minutes). It never develops naturally and is at creepy odds with their sisterly interactions. Their childhood flashback episode highlights this. Their touchy-feely interactions in the FIRST episode feel like siblings, not potential romantic partners. They literally shared the same bed their whole lives. Seriously, has tumblr never heard of the Westermark effect? It is impossible for two people to have a lifetime relationship that isn't sexual?

So, yeah, I think the show is mediocre, the fandom is perverse, and the media is incompetent.

Even so, I did find myself liking the new Enraptra. Probably because I always loved non-evil mad scientist characters, and not because the show did anything original.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on January 19, 2019, 09:45:44 PM
Sounds like the controversy was right on the money.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Snowman0147 on January 20, 2019, 12:29:05 AM
Once again the critics against political correctness for the sake of political correctness are in the right.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 27, 2019, 12:58:05 PM
She-Ra certainly has colorful characters, but the plots are weak. All the non-political reviews that actually review the writing, of which there are very few, agree on this. It isn't abysmal but it certainly isn't memorable. I can remember watching a fair amount of Hilda (another Netflix original with a heroine), but not much of She-Ra despite binging it all. Hilda is a much more interesting show to me.

She-Ra could have been a decent feminist heroine that appealed to boys and girls. Even in the 80s She-Ra was an Amazon goddess (and only misogynists dislike Amazons). Her figure may have been absurd/toyetic and she somehow ran around in heels, but she was the Xena of her time. (I loved the Xena show.) Not only that, but she celebrated feminity by having the same animal friendship powers as Disney princesses. According to a study from the 80s, young boys thought she was the perfect role model, girlfriend and mother figure. Is it hard to see why? Exploring the growth of that heroine from her teen years with the benefit of 30+ years of technical and writing improvement could have been great.

The most annoying part of this manufactroversy is that I WANT a cartoon with an openly LGBTQ+ hero. The problem is that studios hire writers who are either ignoramuses (leading to the many queerbaiting debacles) or tumblrinas (who have little/no experience in writing good). I understand an openly queer protagonist would result in the right-wing media attacking the show and the countries in which queers are butchered will ban the show. That is not a good reason not to put in genuine effort into good writing. Anyone who browses fanfiction.net, wattpad or ao3 will notice that the vast majority of amateur fiction is male/male romance (cis or otherwise) written by straight women. Simply from a business perspective, that is a big untapped demographic.

Using the Mattel properties as an example... I'm know I'm probably going to get flak for even suggesting this but please hear me out. This may come as a shock, but the Greek heroes were bisexual and polyamorous. They had wives at home, boy lovers on the battlefield, and onetime flings with beautiful women. That sort of thing sounds anathema to modern straight and LGBT+ conceptions of romance as monogamous and closed, but back then the Greek hero was considered the paragon of masculinity. (Heroines are much rarer, but did exist.)

He-Man did, and still does, have a female and a queer following. Would it be so wrong to write him after the classical Greek bisexual hero?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 27, 2019, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1072651
Using the Mattel properties as an example... I'm know I'm probably going to get flak for even suggesting this but please hear me out. This may come as a shock, but the Greek heroes were bisexual and polyamorous. They had wives at home, boy lovers on the battlefield, and onetime flings with beautiful women. That sort of thing sounds anathema to modern straight and LGBT+ conceptions of romance as monogamous and closed, but back then the Greek hero was considered the paragon of masculinity. (Heroines are much rarer, but did exist.)

He-Man did, and still does, have a female and a queer following. Would it be so wrong to write him after the classical Greek bisexual hero?

As always, I think it depends on how the writers handle it. Are we talking about He-Man running around fucking everything? I don't think that's approrpriate for a kid's cartoon, no matter the orientation of the characters.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 30, 2019, 12:20:09 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1072654
As always, I think it depends on how the writers handle it. Are we talking about He-Man running around fucking everything? I don't think that's approrpriate for a kid's cartoon, no matter the orientation of the characters.


What are you smoking and where can I get some? Kid's shows tackle platonic crushes and platonic romances all the time.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 30, 2019, 03:24:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1072848
What are you smoking and where can I get some? Kid's shows tackle platonic crushes and platonic romances all the time.

That's not what I'm talking about. How blatant a sexuality are we talking about? Showing He-Man walking into a tent, taking off his fuzzy briches while a 12 year old boy lounges on a couch?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on January 30, 2019, 03:38:36 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1072867
That's not what I'm talking about. How blatant a sexuality are we talking about? Showing He-Man walking into a tent, taking off his fuzzy briches while a 12 year old boy lounges on a couch?


How blatantly is heterosexual romantic attraction typically portrayed in children's media? Blushing and kissing are commonplace. Why should that change if the object of affection is the same sex?

Cartoons like Adventure Time and Steven Universe have already included gay kisses. The latter even had a gay wedding episode.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 31, 2019, 02:11:50 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1072870
How blatantly is heterosexual romantic attraction typically portrayed in children's media? Blushing and kissing are commonplace. Why should that change if the object of affection is the same sex?

Cartoons like Adventure Time and Steven Universe have already included gay kisses. The latter even had a gay wedding episode.

From your previous post-

Quote
boy lovers on the battlefield,

How would a children's cartoon portray He-Man and his "boy lover"?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 01, 2019, 09:19:30 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1072910
From your previous post-



How would a children's cartoon portray He-Man and his "boy lover"?


I've been subtly trying to sent you hints to stop asking that, but fine: the answer is that it wouldn't. Pedophilia is evil. Obviously love interests would be in the same age demographic.

BTW In New Adventures and the 2002 reboot, Prince Adam is written as a teenage boy.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 01, 2019, 01:10:34 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073071
I've been subtly trying to sent you hints to stop asking that, but fine: the answer is that it wouldn't. Pedophilia is evil. Obviously love interests would be in the same age demographic.

Exactly. There is a line to be drawn, especially for children's cartoons. Likewise I do not think even the level of heterosexuality portrayed in Ralph Bakshi's Fire and Ice (To pull an example from a similar genre, animated sword and sorcery) would be appropriate.
Not because it's hetero or homosexual, but the content matter (implied rape, near nudity and sexuality) is inappropriate for the target age range.

Quote
BTW In New Adventures and the 2002 reboot, Prince Adam is written as a teenage boy.


The 2002 reboot was quite good. Adam came across to me as more young adult than teenager.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Armchair Gamer on February 01, 2019, 02:12:45 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073092
The 2002 reboot was quite good. Adam came across to me as more young adult than teenager.

   2002 explicitly starts on his 16th birthday. That was the original intent in the 1980s series bible, but sort of fell by the wayside like the Earth origins of Beast Man, Evil-Lyn, and Tri-Klops. New Adventures (*sigh*) actually fits most naturally after the Filmation series (and, I argued once, after the motion picture if one's trying to create a Grand Unified Continuity, which was just barely possible in the 1980s and has become impossible since).
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: CRKrueger on February 03, 2019, 10:09:55 AM
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 03, 2019, 07:30:09 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073226
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?

Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on February 04, 2019, 03:34:51 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073226
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?

That is allways the point. These hacks can't actually write a new character. They can only take what someone else created and twist it into their "vision". As one black professor noted. This then generates resentment towards whatever the hell their "vision" is because they co-opted something established. And it is insulting to whomever the "vision" is supposed to be "representing" because all it is is tokenism. And half the time its also more a caricature.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 04, 2019, 12:43:14 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073226
Box, why must He-Man be rewritten as gay or non-binary?

Why can't there be a new character who has an actual point besides "known name" and "gay"?


1) He doesn't. But... I talked with a friend about the 80s show and he said he always thought he-man was in the closet. The show even has a noted gay following.

For comparison, I remember watching Hercules the Legendary Journeys and I'm pretty sure Hercules had two or three girlfriends per season. Writing in just one boyfriend per season too wouldn't have ruined the show.

2) I don't see why not. I don't think any of the entertainment companies have any faith that would work, though. There have been numerous opportunities in recent original works to do so, but almost never taken or at most implied or only for minor characters.

E.g. Loudhouse, which routinely airs for hours daily on Nickelodeon, has a gay couple and one of the main character's ten sisters (the rockstar) gives a valentine to a girl at school.

It's weird. I mean, Bo from Lost Girl did well enough as a canonically bi protagonist in a love triangle with wolfboy and doctorgirl. That show ran for five seasons.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 04, 2019, 03:18:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073370
1) He doesn't. But... I talked with a friend about the 80s show and he said he always thought he-man was in the closet. The show even has a noted gay following.

For comparison, I remember watching Hercules the Legendary Journeys and I'm pretty sure Hercules had two or three girlfriends per season. Writing in just one boyfriend per season too wouldn't have ruined the show.

2) I don't see why not. I don't think any of the entertainment companies have any faith that would work, though. There have been numerous opportunities in recent original works to do so, but almost never taken or at most implied or only for minor characters.

E.g. Loudhouse, which routinely airs for hours daily on Nickelodeon, has a gay couple and one of the main character's ten sisters (the rockstar) gives a valentine to a girl at school.

It's weird. I mean, Bo from Lost Girl did well enough as a canonically bi protagonist in a love triangle with wolfboy and doctorgirl. That show ran for five seasons.

Once upon a time, I would have agreed with you. If a writer wanted to make Hercules Bi, I wouldn't care.

But it's all politicized and "woke" now. Whenever I hear about a "progressive" character, I roll my eyes. It means bad writing, cliched progressive buzzwords, and a pandering attitude towards minority characters.

Good stories told well transcend all this shoehorned progressive horseshit.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 04, 2019, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073390
Once upon a time, I would have agreed with you. If a writer wanted to make Hercules Bi, I wouldn't care.

But it's all politicized and "woke" now. Whenever I hear about a "progressive" character, I roll my eyes. It means bad writing, cliched progressive buzzwords, and a pandering attitude towards minority characters.

Good stories told well transcend all this shoehorned progressive horseshit.


The political opposition isn't any better at telling stories either. Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are both being ardently defended for depicting violent rape, false rape accusations, etc as key plot points, despite the manga being widely panned by the community prior to the anime airing. (A few hundred anime air each year and they're mostly garbage that is quickly forgotten.)

I think the best way to satisfy both sides is to produce a story where the heroes are flamboyantly queer and the villains are rapists and false rape accusers.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: CRKrueger on February 05, 2019, 02:23:19 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073408
The political opposition isn't any better at telling stories either. Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are both being ardently defended for depicting violent rape, false rape accusations, etc as key plot points, despite the manga being widely panned by the community prior to the anime airing. (A few hundred anime air each year and they're mostly garbage that is quickly forgotten.)

I think the best way to satisfy both sides is to produce a story where the heroes are flamboyantly queer and the villains are rapists and false rape accusers.

...and that's exactly the problem.

You're pulling out a list of boxes that have to be checked and then saying "just write a story with those".  It's no different than TV where the story and characters are dictated only by marketing, demographics, etc by the bean counters.  You get sub-standard crap work.

The character has to be compelling for some reason other than color and the genitals of them and their sexual partners.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2019, 02:58:43 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073524
The character has to be compelling for some reason other than color and the genitals of them and their sexual partners.

And so we get these nitwits "making" established characters gay or bi or whatever, because they apparently can't write an interesting gay or bi character from scratch. They mooch off the popularity of an established character rather than putting in the effort and risk of creating a new character.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 05, 2019, 04:15:22 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1073524
...and that's exactly the problem.

You're pulling out a list of boxes that have to be checked and then saying "just write a story with those".  It's no different than TV where the story and characters are dictated only by marketing, demographics, etc by the bean counters.  You get sub-standard crap work.

The character has to be compelling for some reason other than color and the genitals of them and their sexual partners.
So do you agree with my assessment that Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are dross?

Overlord and That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime have main characters who are inhuman monsters devoid of sex organs. I certainly found the huge cast of characters in each much more interesting than the one-notes in the other shows I mentioned.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073526
And so we get these nitwits "making" established characters gay or bi or whatever, because they apparently can't write an interesting gay or bi character from scratch. They mooch off the popularity of an established character rather than putting in the effort and risk of creating a new character.


The Greek heroes were already bi, and a number of heroes in lesser known cultural myths like Gilgamesh were sometimes implied to be. Why not adapt that?

As a matter of fact, I found a Mordred/Lancelot novel which didn't seem half-bad.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2019, 05:22:32 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073535
The Greek heroes were already bi, and a number of heroes in lesser known cultural myths like Gilgamesh were sometimes implied to be. Why not adapt that?

The why not is in my post.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 05, 2019, 08:31:31 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073541
The why not is in my post.

So you're saying that all LGBTQ+ characters in modern media have to be original characters and established LGBTQ+ characters like Hercules, Loki, and Dorian Gray are off-limits because the writer is mooching off their popularity?

I disagree. I think you are moving the goalposts because, as you stated previously, you believe that nowadays including LGBTQ+ characters at all is a shoehorned political statement. In most cases it is and that offends LGBTQ+ viewers too. However, that doesn't apply to our current argument because it concerns the writing of a hypothetical story.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073390
Once upon a time, I would have agreed with you. If a writer wanted to make Hercules Bi, I wouldn't care.

But it's all politicized and "woke" now. Whenever I hear about a "progressive" character, I roll my eyes. It means bad writing, cliched progressive buzzwords, and a pandering attitude towards minority characters.

Good stories told well transcend all this shoehorned progressive horseshit.

Japan doesn't have LGBTQ+ rights, yet their media includes whole genres predicated on unrealistically fetishing LGBTQ+ characters for the enjoyment of straight cis consumers. Boy's love, girl's love, traps, futanari, the list goes on.

You are claiming that politics has ruined LGBTQ+ storylines forever, despite the fact that there are currently countless novels and fanfiction which feature amazing characterization of LGBTQ+ characters. Based entirely on your political statements, I suspect you have been poisoned against the idea by the press. But I could easily be wrong. Are there any LGBTQ+ characters in fiction that don't offend you, that you actively enjoy reading their adventures?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2019, 09:53:20 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073563
So you're saying

(https://pics.me.me/so-youre-saying-no-30399041.png)

*Edit*, to be fair, I should address this specific question:

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073535
So do you agree with my assessment that Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are dross?

I haven't seen either, and so I have limited opinions, and they'd be based on other people's opinions. So I don't really know.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Panjumanju on February 15, 2019, 09:06:01 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1073526
And so we get these nitwits "making" established characters gay or bi or whatever, because they apparently can't write an interesting gay or bi character from scratch. They mooch off the popularity of an established character rather than putting in the effort and risk of creating a new character.

That's a problem systemic in all big-brand media right now: nothing can be new, only adapted. Comic books won't risk a new character, cinema fetishises sequels, etc.

In the 70s when everyone wanted kung fu, existing properties were adapted to give them kung fu, like James Bond. Now that marketing executives have decided there's an untapped market share in LGBTQ content, pre-existing content is adapted. That's entirely par for the course, even if it's not coming from a sincere artistic voice.

She-Ra was pretty low-hanging fruit for a more overt LGBTQ version. And there's nothing wrong with that that isn't wrong with all mass-media entertainment. If that's not what you want, there are alternatives...like role-playing games?

//Panjumanju
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: nour on February 15, 2019, 10:53:05 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1065930
I assume you mean Teen Titans Go!
God, I'm sick of that style Tutuapp (https://tutuapp.uno/) 9apps (https://9apps.ooo/) Showbox (https://showbox.run/) . It's the difference between a children's story that adults can enjoy with them, and a brain-dead cartoon that will mesmerize the kids while you go have a half-hour to yourself.

I totally agree,
For me the most unacceptable one is Clarence, it's litterally a retard that has no understanding of the most common things and we can see other kids also have some issues but not like him.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: rgalex on February 15, 2019, 01:58:10 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1073563
So you're saying that all LGBTQ+ characters in modern media have to be original characters and established LGBTQ+ characters like Hercules, Loki, and Dorian Gray are off-limits because the writer is mooching off their popularity?

I disagree. I think you are moving the goalposts because, as you stated previously, you believe that nowadays including LGBTQ+ characters at all is a shoehorned political statement. In most cases it is and that offends LGBTQ+ viewers too. However, that doesn't apply to our current argument because it concerns the writing of a hypothetical story.

Japan doesn't have LGBTQ+ rights, yet their media includes whole genres predicated on unrealistically fetishing LGBTQ+ characters for the enjoyment of straight cis consumers. Boy's love, girl's love, traps, futanari, the list goes on.

You are claiming that politics has ruined LGBTQ+ storylines forever, despite the fact that there are currently countless novels and fanfiction which feature amazing characterization of LGBTQ+ characters. Based entirely on your political statements, I suspect you have been poisoned against the idea by the press. But I could easily be wrong. Are there any LGBTQ+ characters in fiction that don't offend you, that you actively enjoy reading their adventures?

I'm kinda with Ratman_tf here.  It's very hard for me to look at any modern media and not have a huge heaping suspicion that characters are there for inclusion first and story second.  It wasn't always like that.  To answer the question you asked Ratman_tf, here are some of the characters I like and enjoy reading/playing/watching:

TV/Movies

Capt. Jack Harkness and Ianto Jones (Torchwood)
Sam Adama (Caprica)
Gabrielle (Xena: Warrior Princess)
Lafayette Reynolds (True Blood)

Video Games
Lena "Tracer" Oxton (Overwatch)
Erica Anderson (Catherine)
Chloe Price (Life Is Strange)
Bunch of Characters where I get to choose

Comics
Shatterstar (X-Men)
Cassie Hack (HackSlash)
John Constantine (Hellblazer)
Sarah Rainmaker (Gen13)
Midnighter (Stormwatch)
Lisa Williams (Sunstone)
Ystin the Shining Knight (Seven Soldiers)

Manga/Anime
Luka Urushibara (Steins;Gate)
Ranma Saotome (Ranma ½)
Tomo (Fushigi Yugi)
Yuma and Hotaru (NTR: Netsuzou Trap)
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 17, 2019, 05:57:21 PM
That doesn't make the opposite political position any better. Countless right wingers have defended Shield Hero and Goblin Slayer (which are basically the right wing counterpart to She-Ra).

The Shield Hero web novel is... I cannot easily put it into words. Just read this brief review if you want details: http://blog.draggle.org/i-am-trash-part-ii/ (it's written by a dude who jerks off to catgirls, just so you know it isn't biased)

Goblin Slayer is grimderp and even gamers thought it was bad before the animegate fiasco: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Goblin_Slayer

Even if She-Ra is so bland I cannot remember watching, it didn't make me sick like Shield Hero and Goblin Slayer did.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Brand55 on February 17, 2019, 07:52:44 PM
As an impartial rebuttal for anyone interested, here are some numbers for those curious to know what the masses actually think about Shield Hero and Goblin Slayer:

Rising of the Shield Hero - 8.40/10, rated by 7,256 users (https://myanimelist.net/manga/67617/Tate_no_Yuusha_no_Nariagari (https://myanimelist.net/manga/67617/Tate_no_Yuusha_no_Nariagari))
Goblin Slayer - 8.08/10, rated by 15,156 users (https://myanimelist.net/manga/98720/Goblin_Slayer (https://myanimelist.net/manga/98720/Goblin_Slayer))

Most of those ratings and reviews go back several years before either series received an anime series and got wider recognition.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 17, 2019, 09:56:15 PM
Quote from: Brand55;1075390
As an impartial rebuttal for anyone interested, here are some numbers for those curious to know what the masses actually think about Shield Hero and Goblin Slayer:

Rising of the Shield Hero - 8.40/10, rated by 7,256 users (https://myanimelist.net/manga/67617/Tate_no_Yuusha_no_Nariagari (https://myanimelist.net/manga/67617/Tate_no_Yuusha_no_Nariagari))
Goblin Slayer - 8.08/10, rated by 15,156 users (https://myanimelist.net/manga/98720/Goblin_Slayer (https://myanimelist.net/manga/98720/Goblin_Slayer))

Most of those ratings and reviews go back several years before either series received an anime series and got wider recognition.
Impartial? Hardly. Everything on myanimelist is highly rated because otaku have shit standards.

The GS manga is literal rape porn and the SH web novel has the hero making a snuff film. The ratings are not indicative of quality or impartiality anymore than the ratings of the Twilight movies.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Brand55 on February 17, 2019, 10:57:02 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075400
Impartial? Hardly. Everything on myanimelist is highly rated because otaku have shit standards.

The GS manga is literal rape porn and the SH web novel has the hero making a snuff film. The ratings are not indicative of quality or impartiality anymore than the ratings of the Twilight movies.
It's impartial in the sense few if any of those people were deliberately going in with an ax to grind, unlike certain other sources. Some people didn't like the rape in Goblin Slayer and gave it low ratings, but tons of other people really enjoyed it. None of their opinions are invalid, they're just that -- opinions.

Also, I read all three Goblin Slayer titles. If you think those are rape porn, you really need to broaden your horizons. Go on YouTube and look up some reactions to the episode where it looks like the main party is about to be defeated and the goblins swarm over High Elf Archer. You won't see people getting turned on when she's being stripped. You're gonna see people looking horrified or yelling at the damn Dwarf Priest to get to her in time to save her. That's the key difference. The rape in something like La Blue Girl (an actual porn hentai) is used to titillate and get people off. In Goblin Slayer, it's meant to horrify. And it damn well works.

And just to add, I'm sure you'll be able to find a few people that really get off on the rape as it's depicted in Goblin Slayer, but then there's all kinds out there. You run into that in pretty much any fandom. There are some creepy corners even in something as innocuous as My Hero Academia. That's how we end up with sick stuff like Deku x Nomu and people drooling over Eri.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 18, 2019, 09:24:29 AM
Quote from: Brand55;1075408
It's impartial in the sense few if any of those people were deliberately going in with an ax to grind, unlike certain other sources. Some people didn't like the rape in Goblin Slayer and gave it low ratings, but tons of other people really enjoyed it. None of their opinions are invalid, they're just that -- opinions.

Also, I read all three Goblin Slayer titles. If you think those are rape porn, you really need to broaden your horizons. Go on YouTube and look up some reactions to the episode where it looks like the main party is about to be defeated and the goblins swarm over High Elf Archer. You won't see people getting turned on when she's being stripped. You're gonna see people looking horrified or yelling at the damn Dwarf Priest to get to her in time to save her. That's the key difference. The rape in something like La Blue Girl (an actual porn hentai) is used to titillate and get people off. In Goblin Slayer, it's meant to horrify. And it damn well works.

And just to add, I'm sure you'll be able to find a few people that really get off on the rape as it's depicted in Goblin Slayer, but then there's all kinds out there. You run into that in pretty much any fandom. There are some creepy corners even in something as innocuous as My Hero Academia. That's how we end up with sick stuff like Deku x Nomu and people drooling over Eri.


Even if the raters were impartial they still have terrible taste. It's impossible for me to determine the actual quality of anime before watching because every single one is highly rated. Unsurprisingly, most of them turn out to be bad.

My sources didn't have axes to grind either. I deliberately cherrypicked to get the most right-wing sources I could find. 4chan is the bastion of the alt-right! So I asked them for opinions. Even they agree that GS and SH, like most anime, are mediocre trash that don't deserve the praise they receive. In between posting copious porn of it, anyhow.

As for GS... What I meant is that Kannatuki drew detailed rape scenes in the manga that look like hentai. How audiences react isn't my concern (although 4chan complained there wasn't enough rape). Even the original novel is still really creepy. It has an extreme and unrealistic "damaged goods" complex (almost every woman who is raped either dies or goes crazy); at one point the 20-something hero is cuddled by a 15 year old virgin as part of a perverse healing ritual. Did I mention the opening chapters/episode involve the systematic slaughter, mutilation and rape of 15 year olds?

Why is this being defended as high art? Because it's dark and edgy? It's immature is what it is.

I've brought this up before, but GS has bad world building and idiot characters. Goblins are slaughtering villages left and right, but nobody is concerned at all and no explanation is provided except adventurers only care about big money. At one point the major city the Adventure Guild HQ is physically located at is going to be destroyed by a goblin army, but absolutely none of the adventurers inside the building care because they aren't being paid. They don't even bother to leave before the goblins arrive, and I fully expect they would have just stood there while the goblins killed them. That is Invader Zim-levels of stupid.

The irony here is that the GS novel was, according to some sources I cannot verify, intended to be a satire. Boy did that go over everyone's heads if that be the case.

SH is more or less identical to all the other Sword Art Online clones that preceded it. Creepiness and all. It really isn't special aside from the controversy over hero being metoo'd ("metoo" is now slang verb for being falsely accused of rape). It isn't even as extreme as all the entertaining stories where the vengeful "hero" goes on an indiscriminate mass killing spree. The editor clearly reigned in the author's creepy fetishes so the comic/show could appeal to the horny teenage boys (and manchildren) that most anime exported to the West nowadays is aimed at.

Those are both really low hanging fruit, and that's precisely why the high ratings and spirited defenses against teh sjw are so frustrating. (Somebody actually called me a sociopath for refusing to sympathize with Shield Hero after the the snuff scenes and the creepy slavery apologism turned me off.)

Let's not equivocate: Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero are just the male demographic equivalent of Twilight and Fifty Shades. It is hypocritical to denigrate She-Ra yet exalt Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero. They're equally shitty in different ways, like the world building is nonsense, everyone acts like idiots, and the authors are clearly perverts.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Brand55 on February 18, 2019, 11:57:14 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075480
Even if the raters were impartial they still have terrible taste. It's impossible for me to determine the actual quality of anime before watching because every single one is highly rated. Unsurprisingly, most of them turn out to be bad.
Not quite. From what I've seen the scale on MAL isn't quite the one that I'd use, but not everything gets a high score. It's not like Boku no Pico or the new Berserk are rocking especially high marks. In general, something with a score of 7 to 8 is very flawed or very niche but might still be really entertaining. 8 to 9 is likely good if you're into the genre. And 9+ is likely some of the best in the genre or has a very wide audience (stuff like FMA Brotherhood or Your Name). Plus, if you actually look at the reviews for something like Goblin Slayer, you'll see that there are a range of numbers. Not every review is a 9 or 10.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075480
My sources didn't have axes to grind either. I deliberately cherrypicked to get the most right-wing sources I could find. 4chan is the bastion of the alt-right! So I asked them for opinions. Even they agree that GS and SH, like most anime, are mediocre trash that don't deserve the praise they receive. In between posting copious porn of it, anyhow.
First, 4chan is hardly right-wing. Depending on what board you're hanging out on, it can be quite liberal. I've seen people of all stripes over there. If I was going to pick any one word to describe it, I'd use "anarchic." Second, your link to the wiki was factually wrong. Which isn't surprising since it cobbled together from a bunch of info pulled mostly from anons, most of whom were likely shit-posting or had little knowledge of the source material. For instance, GS isn't a hentai. Period. There are no genitals. You get exposed breasts during a handful of explicit scenes, but that's it. It's ecchi, not porn.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075480
As for GS... What I meant is that Kannatuki drew detailed rape scenes in the manga that look like hentai. How audiences react isn't my concern (although 4chan complained there wasn't enough rape). Even the original novel is still really creepy. It has an extreme and unrealistic "damaged goods" complex (almost every woman who is raped either dies or goes crazy); at one point the 20-something hero is cuddled by a 15 year old virgin as part of a perverse healing ritual. Did I mention the opening chapters/episode involve the systematic slaughter, mutilation and rape of 15 year olds?
This is not the place to do a comparison, but if you actually went and looked at actual hentai you would see the difference. And audience reaction is entirely the point. If one scene gets people turned on and the other makes them horrified, then how can you claim those two scenes are the same?

The fact it was a young group of inexperienced noobies that get slaughtered at the start of the series is what makes it so horrific. And later when it nearly happens to HEA, someone the reader/watcher has likely grown to really like, it's even worse. As for the resurrection spell, GS just had to share a bed with Priestess for Sword Maiden to cast the spell. In this world 15 is an adult (as it was for much of our world throughout its history) and Priestess was happy to help heal GS. Is that really an issue?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075480
Why is this being defended as high art? Because it's dark and edgy? It's immature is what it is.
It's not. I've never seen it proclaimed as high art. It's a fun tale about slaughtering horrible monsters while we wait to see if the main character progresses from the utterly broken state he's in when we first meet him.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075480
I've brought this up before, but GS has bad world building and idiot characters. Goblins are slaughtering villages left and right, but nobody is concerned at all and no explanation is provided except adventurers only care about big money. At one point the major city the Adventure Guild HQ is physically located at is going to be destroyed by a goblin army, but absolutely none of the adventurers inside the building care because they aren't being paid. They don't even bother to leave before the goblins arrive, and I fully expect they would have just stood there while the goblins killed them. That is Invader Zim-levels of stupid.
I hate to tell you this, but you've been badly misinformed. Setting aside for the moment that we're talking about a frontier town (not a major city) and that it's been established that the gods are specifically mucking around with things so that no side controls everything too much, you've got the scene with the adventurers all wrong. The town wasn't about to be attacked, a farm was. Many didn't believe Goblin Slayer about the size of the horde, and it had been well established that goblins weren't seen as a major threat. As for payment, that's how the system works. Spearman outright tells GS to post a quest if he wants help then agrees to help if GS will buy him a drink since he's trying to keep up his image. The others only get paid because Guild Girl went ahead and had the guild post a reward on goblin heads. A number of the side characters were clearly willing to help even before money was brought into the picture, but when Guild Girl mentioned the bounty everyone else got on board. We never even got to see if the nameless adventurers would have jumped in without any compensation since there wasn't really a chance for that.

I could go on about the world but it's pointless. This isn't a series about economics and political ties. It's about slaying goblins and the character interactions. If you're wanting deep world-building, you came to the wrong place. That's like hating Guardians of the Galaxy because it doesn't have enough musical numbers.

As for Rising of the Shield Hero, I haven't read or seen it so I won't comment on it.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to change your mind, just correct some mistakes. You don't like some series? Cool, no problem. I was just pointing out some alternate opinions since I do happen to like the series and thought anyone interested might like seeing a variety of opinions on it, both good and bad.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 19, 2019, 05:12:25 PM
Quote from: Brand55;1075499
Not quite. From what I've seen the scale on MAL isn't quite the one that I'd use, but not everything gets a high score. It's not like Boku no Pico or the new Berserk are rocking especially high marks. In general, something with a score of 7 to 8 is very flawed or very niche but might still be really entertaining. 8 to 9 is likely good if you're into the genre. And 9+ is likely some of the best in the genre or has a very wide audience (stuff like FMA Brotherhood or Your Name). Plus, if you actually look at the reviews for something like Goblin Slayer, you'll see that there are a range of numbers. Not every review is a 9 or 10.


First, 4chan is hardly right-wing. Depending on what board you're hanging out on, it can be quite liberal. I've seen people of all stripes over there. If I was going to pick any one word to describe it, I'd use "anarchic." Second, your link to the wiki was factually wrong. Which isn't surprising since it cobbled together from a bunch of info pulled mostly from anons, most of whom were likely shit-posting or had little knowledge of the source material. For instance, GS isn't a hentai. Period. There are no genitals. You get exposed breasts during a handful of explicit scenes, but that's it. It's ecchi, not porn.


This is not the place to do a comparison, but if you actually went and looked at actual hentai you would see the difference. And audience reaction is entirely the point. If one scene gets people turned on and the other makes them horrified, then how can you claim those two scenes are the same?

The fact it was a young group of inexperienced noobies that get slaughtered at the start of the series is what makes it so horrific. And later when it nearly happens to HEA, someone the reader/watcher has likely grown to really like, it's even worse. As for the resurrection spell, GS just had to share a bed with Priestess for Sword Maiden to cast the spell. In this world 15 is an adult (as it was for much of our world throughout its history) and Priestess was happy to help heal GS. Is that really an issue?


It's not. I've never seen it proclaimed as high art. It's a fun tale about slaughtering horrible monsters while we wait to see if the main character progresses from the utterly broken state he's in when we first meet him.


I hate to tell you this, but you've been badly misinformed. Setting aside for the moment that we're talking about a frontier town (not a major city) and that it's been established that the gods are specifically mucking around with things so that no side controls everything too much, you've got the scene with the adventurers all wrong. The town wasn't about to be attacked, a farm was. Many didn't believe Goblin Slayer about the size of the horde, and it had been well established that goblins weren't seen as a major threat. As for payment, that's how the system works. Spearman outright tells GS to post a quest if he wants help then agrees to help if GS will buy him a drink since he's trying to keep up his image. The others only get paid because Guild Girl went ahead and had the guild post a reward on goblin heads. A number of the side characters were clearly willing to help even before money was brought into the picture, but when Guild Girl mentioned the bounty everyone else got on board. We never even got to see if the nameless adventurers would have jumped in without any compensation since there wasn't really a chance for that.

I could go on about the world but it's pointless. This isn't a series about economics and political ties. It's about slaying goblins and the character interactions. If you're wanting deep world-building, you came to the wrong place. That's like hating Guardians of the Galaxy because it doesn't have enough musical numbers.

As for Rising of the Shield Hero, I haven't read or seen it so I won't comment on it.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to change your mind, just correct some mistakes. You don't like some series? Cool, no problem. I was just pointing out some alternate opinions since I do happen to like the series and thought anyone interested might like seeing a variety of opinions on it, both good and bad.


You are right, I suppose. I don't have a problem with GS per se, but all the people defending it against entirely valid albeit unnecessary criticism. You may not have heard them, but I saw loads come out of the woodwork when the twitter storm erupted.

GS is shlocky as hell and doesn't even pretend to be realistic. It reads more like a satire of generic D&D campaigns and the general immaturity and tone-deafness of most grimdark fiction than serious grimdark fiction. Critics criticize it at face value, clearly missing the satire.

Defenders irrationally claim all criticism is wrong and the critics are all stupid SJWs, NPCs, blah blah blah. They take the satire at face value and devise elaborate justifications for the excessive amounts of violence and sexual assault. Google "thermian argument" if you want to understand the problem here.

The story itself actually mocks the thermian argument and the rapey grimdark genre by making the setting itself a literal game of D&D played out between what I assume is a pair of teenage boys going through their emo phase. The one who made the goblins introduced the rape because he could. It reads like a meta-commentary on all those edgelord DMs who casually describe monsters as rapists.

There's a youtube video where a well-known Asian D&D player criticizes the world building of GS as nonsensical. He doesn't mention anything about the sexual violence, but focuses purely on the logistics. The short of it is that the goblins kill humans faster than humans reproduce and therefore should have wiped out humanity ages ago. "Realistically", the show should be about goblin wars and not a single goblin slayer. The comments are full of people calling him a loony SJW without any integrity.

SH callously trivializes rape and slavery. Real life rape politics are fucked up. The overwhelming majority of rapists are never prosecuted. Racists historically used false rape accusations to lynch innocent black men. Rape is considered the greatest evil, prison justice, and the punchline of jokes. Nobody believes that men can raped (outside prison) despite men being raped all the time. SH uses a false rape accusation as a cheap plot enabler to justify why the hero has no problem with using slaves, and said slaves are happy to be enslaved because hero is such a kind master. To add insult to injury, the show is apparently a hit with victims of false witnesses cases and their friends, who seemingly have no problem sympathizing with a literal slaveowner.

In Japan, these animes are literally aimed at horny teenage boys and socially maladjusted men who cannot form healthy relationships with women. Japanese people take this for granted. They don't defend what they see as emotional porn.

If the anti-sjws weren't making such a big deal about how these shows shouldn't be criticized as the silly fantasies they are, I wouldn't care about SH or GS. There are hundreds of other cartoons/comics that are just as bad or worse but receive zero media attention.

In Overlord, the protagonist is the leader of a dungeon full of evil monsters. Two of his lieutenants are rapists. One of them runs rape farms trying to breed better slaves.

Loads of people have criticized Overlord for centering on the exploits of such grotesque villains. Yet the anti-sjw brigade has not attempted to defend the show against these criticisms, but kindly rebuffed them as "that's too bad, but your revulsion is perfectly valid and I respect it as such."

Defenders of GS and SH claim that rape goblins and slavemaster heroes are "deep" and "important" and that critics are stupid.

I don't understand this phenomenon of defending intentional shlock. It frustrates me.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on February 19, 2019, 10:35:41 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075367
That doesn't make the opposite political position any better. Countless right wingers have defended Shield Hero and Goblin Slayer (which are basically the right wing counterpart to She-Ra).

The Shield Hero web novel is... I cannot easily put it into words. Just read this brief review if you want details: http://blog.draggle.org/i-am-trash-part-ii/ (it's written by a dude who jerks off to catgirls, just so you know it isn't biased)

Goblin Slayer is grimderp and even gamers thought it was bad before the animegate fiasco: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Goblin_Slayer

Even if She-Ra is so bland I cannot remember watching, it didn't make me sick like Shield Hero and Goblin Slayer did.


Still on that little kick huh? You love being proven wrong over and over done you? Try again please.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Brand55 on February 19, 2019, 11:02:06 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075741
There's a youtube video where a well-known Asian D&D player criticizes the world building of GS as nonsensical. He doesn't mention anything about the sexual violence, but focuses purely on the logistics. The short of it is that the goblins kill humans faster than humans reproduce and therefore should have wiped out humanity ages ago. "Realistically", the show should be about goblin wars and not a single goblin slayer. The comments are full of people calling him a loony SJW without any integrity.
The main thing I can say about stuff like that is that the Internet sucks. You're always going to have people wanting to be argumentative or stir the pot, either because they feel they have to protect their views at all costs or they just like fucking with people. It sucks, but there's nothing to be done about it.

I like Goblin Slayer. I like the brutal action and darker tone; they're a nice change of pace from the 10 million light-hearted series out there. But I'd also never claim it to be a perfect series or expect everyone to like those elements, either.

Seriously looking at it, the world of GS wouldn't work if you're going on the assumption that what we're seeing is the norm. The problem I see with that assumption is that we're only getting a look at one corner of the world in one (two, technically) brief moments in time, and it's outright stated that the gods interfere to keep things interesting. It's strongly suggested that goblins come from one of the moons, so it takes something to bring them down to the planet in the first place. We don't know if the goblins have to worry about other predators besides adventurers keeping their numbers in check. We don't know their lifespans, or if their numbers rise and fall periodically (thus making the period we're seeing one with higher-than-normal goblin activity), or if they start in-fighting if their numbers get too high. There could be a lot of factors that keep goblins from overrunning humanity out on the frontier where the series takes place, but we just don't have enough information to say why they don't.

Oh, and Overlord. I actually was looking into checking out the anime series but I heard it took a really ugly turn in season 3 so I'm sort of on the fence on it. I'll probably still watch it someday but for now I have far too much stuff I'm more interested in.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2019, 04:41:58 PM
Quote from: Panjumanju;1075158
That's a problem systemic in all big-brand media right now: nothing can be new, only adapted. Comic books won't risk a new character, cinema fetishises sequels, etc.

In the 70s when everyone wanted kung fu, existing properties were adapted to give them kung fu, like James Bond. Now that marketing executives have decided there's an untapped market share in LGBTQ content, pre-existing content is adapted. That's entirely par for the course, even if it's not coming from a sincere artistic voice.

She-Ra was pretty low-hanging fruit for a more overt LGBTQ version. And there's nothing wrong with that that isn't wrong with all mass-media entertainment. If that's not what you want, there are alternatives...like role-playing games?

//Panjumanju


I'll bet there were people who thought the kung-fu craze was pandering.
There's an undercurrent of politics to this LGBTQIAMNOP stuff that makes it especially distatesful.
So hey, I'll be the grumpy old man who yells at clouds over this topic. I am allowed to have an opinion, right?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2019, 04:45:51 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1075367
That doesn't make the opposite political position any better. Countless right wingers have defended Shield Hero and Goblin Slayer (which are basically the right wing counterpart to She-Ra).


It's difficult to discuss shows I know so little about. Do you have examples of right wingers defending these series?
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 26, 2019, 03:53:34 PM
Quote from: Omega;1075781
Still on that little kick huh? You love being proven wrong over and over done you? Try again please.
Okay, fine, I was wrong. I really regret getting into arguments with you. Happy now?

GS and SH are generic wish fulfillment shlock in a vast sea of shlock that is the light novel market. Getting bent out of shape over them is stupid.

That still doesn't make you right or better for defending them. Shlock is shlock.

I wouldn't defend Gamerz Heaven as high art for gang raping the villain twice in the supplementary materials. It's porn.

Quote from: Brand55;1075788
The main thing I can say about stuff like that is that the Internet sucks. You're always going to have people wanting to be argumentative or stir the pot, either because they feel they have to protect their views at all costs or they just like fucking with people. It sucks, but there's nothing to be done about it.

I like Goblin Slayer. I like the brutal action and darker tone; they're a nice change of pace from the 10 million light-hearted series out there. But I'd also never claim it to be a perfect series or expect everyone to like those elements, either.

Seriously looking at it, the world of GS wouldn't work if you're going on the assumption that what we're seeing is the norm. The problem I see with that assumption is that we're only getting a look at one corner of the world in one (two, technically) brief moments in time, and it's outright stated that the gods interfere to keep things interesting. It's strongly suggested that goblins come from one of the moons, so it takes something to bring them down to the planet in the first place. We don't know if the goblins have to worry about other predators besides adventurers keeping their numbers in check. We don't know their lifespans, or if their numbers rise and fall periodically (thus making the period we're seeing one with higher-than-normal goblin activity), or if they start in-fighting if their numbers get too high. There could be a lot of factors that keep goblins from overrunning humanity out on the frontier where the series takes place, but we just don't have enough information to say why they don't.

Oh, and Overlord. I actually was looking into checking out the anime series but I heard it took a really ugly turn in season 3 so I'm sort of on the fence on it. I'll probably still watch it someday but for now I have far too much stuff I'm more interested in.
You give GS way too much credit, way more than it deserves. The "it was a game all along" thing pretty much destroyed my already broken suspension of disbelief.

If you want a game between two omnipotent beings, one good and one evil, Drifters is way better written and vastly more subversive of overused fantasy tropes.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1075894
I'll bet there were people who thought the kung-fu craze was pandering.
There's an undercurrent of politics to this LGBTQIAMNOP stuff that makes it especially distatesful.
So hey, I'll be the grumpy old man who yells at clouds over this topic. I am allowed to have an opinion, right?
To be fair, most of the representation is bad from the other side's POV because studios have literal mandates not to include genuine gay representation to avoid offending bigots because they want to air their cartoons in countries where gay people are executed for existing. This has been outrighted stated in numerous interviews over the years. Studios are hypocrites who want to sound progressive by claiming to support the gay community while refusing to actually speak out against the ongoing gay holocaust and even profiting off it.

Even She-Ra suffers the same problem despite the showrunner herself being gay. If Catra was instead Catro, he would be written with obvious romantic overtures to Adora and Scorpina. Dreamworks literally told the showrunner to keep the gays in the closet to avoid offending bigots.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1075897
It's difficult to discuss shows I know so little about. Do you have examples of right wingers defending these series?
There really isn't much to discuss. But if you really want details:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-anti-anime-left-is-garbage-and-heres-why-dont-let-the-alt-right-claim-anime-stuff-about-orientalism.97504/
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/rise-of-the-shield-hero-more-like-rise-of-edgy-revenge-isekais.725005/
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/goblin-slayer-ideas-discussions-and-reccomendations.647963/

Long story short, lots of anime is creepy fetish wish fulfillment. Somehow the twitter outrage mob remained ignorant of this until GS and SH came along. Both prominently and callously featured gratuitous rape, corrective rape, attempted rape and/or false rape accusations as key plot points. This places them only marginally worse than many other anime in recent years, which commonly feature protagonists casually engaging in sexual harassment and assault (e.g. "How Not to Summon a Demon Lord"). Angry nerds came out of the woodwork to defend these magical realms as high art deserving of praise.

GS is apparently supposed to be a satire of how RPGs treat goblins as canon fodder, but in practice is about women being raped and bred by goblins for shock value in between scenes of generic happy go lucky anime hijinks.

SH is about a dude being metoo'd by an evil princess and then buying a harem of slaves to get revenge on the filthy whore who accused him, but his slave girls convince him to give up on revenge and build a retreat where they can live in blissful servitude.

It is difficult to determine the political views of the defenders, but whenever it comes up their defenses are just knee-jerk reactions to the twitter outrage mob. So I can only assume they are right leaning, but I could be wrong.

"Showing underage girls being raped for your entertainment is distateful." "Goblins have to rape underage girls to show how evil they are."

"Goblins are eerily reminiscent of racist propaganda about foreigners/martians/whatever wanting our women designed to appeal to the Id." "Sometimes a rape monster is just a rape monster, not a metaphor for the Other."

"The evil princess deserves to be literally raped to death." "Rape is never an acceptable punishment for any crime."

"Slaves being happy with enslavement is literally Confederate propaganda." "Hero needs to use slaves to show how emotionally damaged he is."

"Depicting false rape accusations as the ignition of a revenge story may incite courts to disbelieve rape survivors slightly more than they already do." "Disbelieving false rape accusations takes precedence over prosecuting rapists."

"It cannot be a commentary on #MeToo because it was made in 2013, and it cannot be sexist because the anonymous author uses a vaguely feminine pseudonym." "Crunchyroll funded it and should have realized it needed censoring to avoid causing needless controversy, unless they wanted the publicity in today's clickbait dystopia."

Mud slinging, mud slinging, mud slinging. Strawmen everywhere on both sides. Everybody makes fools of themselves.

It basically boils down to women being objectified as part of the virgin/whore complex. Virgins are objects of affection. Whores are objects of pity or scorn. None of this casual objectification of women is new for anime. Whole genres of anime make money by selling twisted wish fulfillment fantasies to socially maladjusted perverts. What is strange is that twitter is only calling it out now.

I got into arguments over this while I was still high on painkillers recovering from a car crash and that colored my interactions a lot. I made myself look like an idiot by taking them remotely seriously and I'm still trying to shake the stigma. But to be honest everybody who argues over this trash looks foolish. GS and SH simply don't merit critique or defense because they are trashy wish fulfillment stories in a vast capitalist sea of similar stories that will be quickly forgotten in favor of another fad.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: deadDMwalking on March 18, 2019, 03:26:49 PM
Setting aside whether anime fans have low standards (they often do), my 3-year-old and 7-year-old have enjoyed watching episodes.  I expect that there was a feeling that people who remember the show from the 1980s expected this version to be aimed at them, not squarely at the demographic they represented 30+ years ago.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;1073524
The character has to be compelling for some reason other than color and the genitals of them and their sexual partners.

The He-Man universe is not the one you want to be looking at for 'compelling characters'.  The series was intended to sell toys; it may be remembered fondly, but it doesn't have a lot of artistic merit.  Having any characterization beyond 'won't this make a cool action figure' is a step-up.  The differences that characters have from each other is what makes the story interesting.  Some of those differences can be opinions but some of them are doubtless about background and upbringing.  The 'grew up poor' character and the 'grew up rich' character are going to have different perceptions of how to handle situations, as is the 'part of the cool crowd' and 'part of the outsiders'.  Choosing character traits that resonate with people today isn't weird or wrong.

Quote from: rgalex;1075184
I'm kinda with Ratman_tf here.  It's very hard for me to look at any modern media and not have a huge heaping suspicion that characters are there for inclusion first and story second.

I don't know how you'd decide that.  It's a better chicken an egg question.  If the character represents a generally unrepresented group, there are almost by definition new story opportunities that haven't been explored before.  In an age of reboots a Batman that is openly gay is perhaps just as 'new' as a Batman that brands and kills criminals with a gun. Honestly, I have a pretty strong opinion about which one of those is 'twisting the original character' and it has nothing to do with sexuality.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 18, 2019, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079665
Setting aside whether anime fans have low standards (they often do), my 3-year-old and 7-year-old have enjoyed watching episodes.  I expect that there was a feeling that people who remember the show from the 1980s expected this version to be aimed at them, not squarely at the demographic they represented 30+ years ago.  



The He-Man universe is not the one you want to be looking at for 'compelling characters'.  The series was intended to sell toys; it may be remembered fondly, but it doesn't have a lot of artistic merit.  Having any characterization beyond 'won't this make a cool action figure' is a step-up.  The differences that characters have from each other is what makes the story interesting.  Some of those differences can be opinions but some of them are doubtless about background and upbringing.  The 'grew up poor' character and the 'grew up rich' character are going to have different perceptions of how to handle situations, as is the 'part of the cool crowd' and 'part of the outsiders'.  Choosing character traits that resonate with people today isn't weird or wrong.



I don't know how you'd decide that.  It's a better chicken an egg question.  If the character represents a generally unrepresented group, there are almost by definition new story opportunities that haven't been explored before.  In an age of reboots a Batman that is openly gay is perhaps just as 'new' as a Batman that brands and kills criminals with a gun. Honestly, I have a pretty strong opinion about which one of those is 'twisting the original character' and it has nothing to do with sexuality.

Dunno about twisting the original character.

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52074/2151039-bat_gun.png)

I simply don't like it when they turn Batman into Gunman. May as well just call in the Punisher.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on March 20, 2019, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1079677
Dunno about twisting the original character.
I simply don't like it when they turn Batman into Gunman. May as well just call in the Punisher.

So true. Batman has never needed a gun to kill all the criminals he has offed over the decades.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Warboss Squee on March 20, 2019, 10:57:06 PM
Quote from: Omega;1080010
So true. Batman has never needed a gun to kill all the criminals he has offed over the decades.

I'm convinced that every doctor in the world has to do a year rotation through Gotham Metro Hospital to truly understand despair.

"Doctor, we have another Batman trauma!"

"Oh, goddamn it. Ok, where's the mop?"
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Spinachcat on March 23, 2019, 07:54:33 PM
Quote from: Brand55;1075499
If you're wanting deep world-building, you came to the wrong place. That's like hating Guardians of the Galaxy because it doesn't have enough musical numbers.


But Guardians has Mary Poppins y'all!!!

I personally find most world-building arguments useless. Most media doesn't make a shred of sense under critical examination. And almost any media series that goes on long enough breaks its own rules and canon.


Quote from: Ratman_tf;1075894
I am allowed to have an opinion, right?


Not for long. But enjoy it while you can.


Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1076730
Shlock is shlock.


You are right.

George Carlin dealt with this decades ago when he declared "My stuff is stuff. Your stuff is shit."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Numg_0dxiwk

For most fans, if we like something, it's art. If we don't like something, it's definitely shlock.


Quote from: deadDMwalking;1079665
Setting aside whether anime fans have low standards (they often do), my 3-year-old and 7-year-old have enjoyed watching episodes.  I expect that there was a feeling that people who remember the show from the 1980s expected this version to be aimed at them, not squarely at the demographic they represented 30+ years ago.


You are also right.

30 years ago, Japanese Anime may have been aimed at teens and adults, but American cartoons were aimed at children.

I'd love more adult oriented animation in the USA and I expect we will see growth in that genre (like Into the Spiderverse).
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 27, 2020, 08:27:45 PM
Rise from your grave!

'She-Ra' Creator Noelle Stevenson Apologizes For Slavery Joke During Livestream (https://www.newsweek.com/she-ra-creator-noelle-stevenson-apologizes-slavery-joke-1527986)
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 28, 2020, 02:19:25 PM
Also having missed the debate:

Stuff like Goblin Slayer, Shield Hero and Sword Art online is horrible garbage. Not because its edgy but because its immature trash. They are stupid, shallow, repetative, and follow the same sort of carnal misanthropic escapism desire. Every story has some level of escapism, but this is to an unhealthy degree.
I find myself having to defend them from Socjus destruction out of principle, but I have no love for such garbage.

As for She-Ra its a dime a dozen modern day show.

Edit:What I mean by that is Calarts Animation, gay pandering, shit designs and sappy melodrama. Modern Anime is Escapism for Eastern Misanthropes while modern cartoons are escapism for Western Misanthropes.

Il take the eastern stuff but only by a hairs worth.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Omega on August 30, 2020, 03:01:53 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1146798
Also having missed the debate:

Stuff like Goblin Slayer, Shield Hero and Sword Art online is horrible garbage. Not because its edgy but because its immature trash. They are stupid, shallow, repetative, and follow the same sort of carnal misanthropic escapism desire. Every story has some level of escapism, but this is to an unhealthy degree.

Actually Sword art and Shield Hero arent misanthropic escapism. Especially not Shield Hero. Try again please. Rather than just copy-pasting the usual hate screed from people who apparently never actually watched either show.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2020, 02:02:18 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1146798
Also having missed the debate:

Stuff like Goblin Slayer, Shield Hero and Sword Art online is horrible garbage. Not because its edgy but because its immature trash. They are stupid, shallow, repetative, and follow the same sort of carnal misanthropic escapism desire. Every story has some level of escapism, but this is to an unhealthy degree.
I find myself having to defend them from Socjus destruction out of principle, but I have no love for such garbage.

As for She-Ra its a dime a dozen modern day show.

Edit:What I mean by that is Calarts Animation, gay pandering, shit designs and sappy melodrama. Modern Anime is Escapism for Eastern Misanthropes while modern cartoons are escapism for Western Misanthropes.

Il take the eastern stuff but only by a hairs worth.


I agree with you except for one thing:

It's not gay pandering, it's queer baiting. The two prior established gay couples are minor characters who only appear in a handful of episodes. Adora and Catra only get together at the end and we don't actually see their romantic relationship develop, although I imagine it would be an abusive one considering Catra is a terrible person who abuses everyone around her. Noelle should have been in therapy, not writing a show to work through her relationship problems.

I'm disappointed that Double Trouble was never given an opportunity to theatrically introduce his/her/their pronouns. Something like Glimmer referring to them as a "he", then DT going into a speech about how "Oh honey, I am so much more than that. I am he, she, both, neither. I am they!" I found it rather unrealistic that everybody just psychically knows DT's preferred pronouns, as that is very much not the case in real life.

The hypocrisy from the showrunners is staggering. Entrapta is supposed to be autistic, but they never consulted actual autistic people to ensure her writing is respectful. I found her idiotic behavior in season 5 blatantly insulting (I am autistic myself, formally diagnosed and everything).

Quote from: Omega;1146951
Actually Sword art and Shield Hero arent misanthropic escapism. Especially not Shield Hero. Try again please. Rather than just copy-pasting the usual hate screed from people who apparently never actually watched either show.


Shield Hero is shallow wish fulfillment fantasy devoid of any redeeming values. It focuses on a sociopathic "hero" who grooms children into loyal slaves. The story romanticizes slavery and abusive relationships. All of the characters are shallow caricatures, especially the villains. It is very low hanging fruit.

Naofumi is a male version of Catra. They're abusive sociopaths with victim complexes who feel entitled to other people's affections and lose their shit when they don't get what they want. They obsess over getting revenge on those who spurned them. They never suffer any lasting consequences for their bad actions, but are instead vindicated by author fiat.

In other words, precisely the kinds of characters that self-absorbed teenagers identify with.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 31, 2020, 04:06:21 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1147097
I agree with you except for one thing:

It's not gay pandering, it's queer baiting. The two prior established gay couples are minor characters who only appear in a handful of episodes. Adora and Catra only get together at the end and we don't actually see their romantic relationship develop, although I imagine it would be an abusive one considering Catra is a terrible person who abuses everyone around her. Noelle should have been in therapy, not writing a show to work through her relationship problems.

I'm disappointed that Double Trouble was never given an opportunity to theatrically introduce his/her/their pronouns. Something like Glimmer referring to them as a "he", then DT going into a speech about how "Oh honey, I am so much more than that. I am he, she, both, neither. I am they!" I found it rather unrealistic that everybody just psychically knows DT's preferred pronouns, as that is very much not the case in real life.

The hypocrisy from the showrunners is staggering. Entrapta is supposed to be autistic, but they never consulted actual autistic people to ensure her writing is respectful. I found her idiotic behavior in season 5 blatantly insulting (I am autistic myself, formally diagnosed and everything).



Shield Hero is shallow wish fulfillment fantasy devoid of any redeeming values. It focuses on a sociopathic "hero" who grooms children into loyal slaves. The story romanticizes slavery and abusive relationships. All of the characters are shallow caricatures, especially the villains. It is very low hanging fruit.

Naofumi is a male version of Catra. They're abusive sociopaths with victim complexes who feel entitled to other people's affections and lose their shit when they don't get what they want. They obsess over getting revenge on those who spurned them. They never suffer any lasting consequences for their bad actions, but are instead vindicated by author fiat.

In other words, precisely the kinds of characters that self-absorbed teenagers identify with.

What does any of that have to do with She-Ra fighting the Evil Horde? You make it sound like a shitshow of identity politics and not a fun kid's adventure show.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 31, 2020, 08:04:23 PM
Quote from: Omega;1146951
Actually Sword art and Shield Hero arent misanthropic escapism. Especially not Shield Hero. Try again please. Rather than just copy-pasting the usual hate screed from people who apparently never actually watched either show.

I meant the target demo ARE misanthropic Japanese otaku, rather then the shows being that misanthropic themselves.
If you wanna tangle with my knowledge of shitty anime tropes prepare to be destroyed.
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 31, 2020, 08:19:16 PM
Also queerthirsters deserve to be queerbaited.

Dont be a representation simp. Representation thirst is a developed trait
Title: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Armchair Gamer on August 31, 2020, 10:00:40 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1147104
What does any of that have to do with She-Ra fighting the Evil Horde? You make it sound like a shitshow of identity politics and not a fun kid's adventure show.


Everything I've heard about the show--including the gushing over on TBP--makes it sound like 'progressive teen angst fest and shipping drama' is more what they were going for.
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 01, 2020, 09:36:56 PM
What does any of that have to do with She-Ra fighting the Evil Horde? You make it sound like a shitshow of identity politics and not a fun kid's adventure show.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmDfRyqJ-jXHIgOXglCjJKuQL09gxsICf


I meant the target demo ARE misanthropic Japanese otaku, rather then the shows being that misanthropic themselves.
If you wanna tangle with my knowledge of shitty anime tropes prepare to be destroyed.
I find it nigh impossible to watch anime because it is full of casual sexual harassment, physical abuse, sexualized humiliation, panty shots of underage girls, and plenty other disgusting fetish material.


Like, I was watching Noragami this one time. In one episode the girl protagonist pervs on the unconscious and hospitalized boy protagonist by taking off his shirt and when he wakes up she viciously beats him for catching her in the act. The entire sequence is disgusting in the extreme, but the writing plays it for comedy.


Or take Made in Abyss. A recurring joke is that one of the protagonists, a combat android resembling a boy of ten or eleven years old, has a fully functional penis. What the fuck?


People nowadays like to say that anime is superior to western cartoons. They're not. They're just far more open about the fact that they're vehicles for the author's own perversions.


Also queerthirsters deserve to be queerbaited.

Dont be a representation simp. Representation thirst is a developed trait
Queer representation is a sick joke. Straight creators just shoehorn queer characters for brownie points from the SJWs, but otherwise treat them as afterthoughts (e.g. Korra, Voltron, Dragon Prince). Queer creators use queer characters as vehicles for dealing with their own untreated psychological problems, like their parents rejecting them (e.g. Steven Universe) or their spouse cheating on them (e.g. She-Ra).


Could we try hiring queer creators who aren't crazy and have actual experience?


Everything I've heard about the show--including the gushing over on TBP--makes it sound like 'progressive teen angst fest and shipping drama' is more what they were going for.
Yup. IIRC, the creator actually complained on twitter that action scenes are too hard to write and would prefer a kissing scene instead.
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 01, 2020, 10:26:27 PM
I find it nigh impossible to watch anime because it is full of casual sexual harassment, physical abuse, sexualized humiliation, panty shots of underage girls, and plenty other disgusting fetish material.
As a person who hates all the same sorts of things you hate I think your overblowing it. This is sort of like saying "Tom and Jerry is a sick animal abuse fantasy" or "Superman Teaches kids to solve all their problems with their fists".


But yes I hate all the shit your talking about, not even somuchso because Im disgusted by it, more...Sad and boring.
I don't think Loli likers are Pedos (Because they barely resemble children) but are more....depraved on ideas of a mix of lust+desire for being a parent.
Its also really really boring. These are 30+ year old gags being paraded around as if they are fresh every, fucking, time. Gags about the gags (The hight of innovation within this) are also like 25 years old.
I found the funniest gag about this sort of thing in Patlabor where the guy accidentally catches a downshirt shot of a girl, blushes!....And then looks away awkwardly but continues talking normally to her like a goddam adult. And thats 30+ years old. Patlabor is actually a fantastic show where it takes the mature route despite having a ctuesy exterior in every possible gag opportunity.


But yeah the fetish crap is also fucking shit. And the fetishes compound on themselves. I agree the made in the abyss grossed me out (outside of once again being pretty boring).


And as for honest about their kinks? The worst part is their not. Their like a GM making stories about magical realms. Just make some goddam hentais and jerk off in peace in the XXX section away from storylines or even attempts at characterization. Don't wrap your fetish shit in a thin veneer of plot to pretend your doing something else, and the people that wank to this stuff just say its for the porn and stop pretending its any deeper then that. But Japanese society as a whole is deeply, deeply unhealthy. This are going to come to a head there.


As for gayness Im of the opinion that I don't really care if they get represented or not. I don't think gay representation (or representation for any group in general) is a good trait for society. But Im glad you caught on how many of them just use it to piss off their parents when their given media.


Honestly Steven Universe is the only show to have ever offended my sensibilities on a deeply personal level (And its not the gay pandering that did it).
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 01, 2020, 10:45:22 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1147104
What does any of that have to do with She-Ra fighting the Evil Horde? You make it sound like a shitshow of identity politics and not a fun kid's adventure show.

Everything I've heard about the show--including the gushing over on TBP--makes it sound like 'progressive teen angst fest and shipping drama' is more what they were going for.


Surely automatic disagreement with people you hate is better than a qualified opinion based on direct observation. 
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 01, 2020, 10:49:13 PM
Surely automatic disagreement with people you hate is better than a qualified opinion based on direct observation.


Actually BoxCrayon agreed with them on said point. But your a deeply intelectually disengenous dick so you don't care.
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 02, 2020, 08:05:56 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1147104
What does any of that have to do with She-Ra fighting the Evil Horde? You make it sound like a shitshow of identity politics and not a fun kid's adventure show.

Everything I've heard about the show--including the gushing over on TBP--makes it sound like 'progressive teen angst fest and shipping drama' is more what they were going for.


Surely automatic disagreement with people you hate is better than a qualified opinion based on direct observation.


I watched the whole show. It didn’t impress. If you want a good 80s reboot, then watch 2002 He-Man or 2011 Thundercats.
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 02, 2020, 08:41:18 AM
Surely automatic disagreement with people you hate is better than a qualified opinion based on direct observation.


Actually BoxCrayon agreed with them on said point. But your a deeply intelectually disengenous dick so you don't care.


Which is why I quoted Armchair Gamer  and responded to his message, and not BoxCrayon's post.  But you're an intellectually disingenuous dick who apparently doesn't care enough to use spell correct. 
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 02, 2020, 08:59:06 AM
Can we not do this? Please?
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Armchair Gamer on September 02, 2020, 10:16:32 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1147104
What does any of that have to do with She-Ra fighting the Evil Horde? You make it sound like a shitshow of identity politics and not a fun kid's adventure show.

Everything I've heard about the show--including the gushing over on TBP--makes it sound like 'progressive teen angst fest and shipping drama' is more what they were going for.


Surely automatic disagreement with people you hate is better than a qualified opinion based on direct observation.



  You assume too much--it wasn't 'automatic disagreement' so much as it was an observation based on acknowledged secondhand information, including from a source meant to be called out as positive towards the material.


  As for direct observation %u2026 I don't have Netflix, I don't like streaming services, and the show looks to be something I wouldn't enjoy and whose creators have been actively hostile towards me (as a member of various demographics) for numerous reasons. Why should I waste my time and money on it? I have enough interest and overlap to have observed certain things about the show, based on secondary sources, that appeared to be relevant to the conversation, but I have nothing further to contribute and no real desire to do so.
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 02, 2020, 01:33:52 PM
Apparently Noelle had a joke circling among the crew (who were all white women) where they joked about inserting a black slave working on a plantation into the show. The commitment to diversity was clearly never genuine.


Meanwhile, actually interesting pitches like Astur's Rebellion (https://twitter.com/AstursRebellion) (which is basically Avatar meets The Arabian Nights) get rejected literally for having a black lead.
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Armchair Gamer on September 02, 2020, 01:51:34 PM
Apparently Noelle had a joke circling among the crew (who were all white women) where they joked about inserting a black slave working on a plantation into the show. The commitment to diversity was clearly never genuine.



   Look, I think I've demonstrated I'm not a fan and not really qualified to do deep commentary, but I had enough schadenfreude to follow up on this when it blew up and from what I gathered, it's really not as bad as you're making out. Apparently the joke was about a bunch of Bow's siblings having names that rhymed with his, one of them being 'Sow' and a farmer, and looking like a stereotypical American farmer. This seems to have been judged offensive, but there was no direct or explicit association of 'slavery' or 'plantation.'
Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 02, 2020, 03:07:02 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1147104
What does any of that have to do with She-Ra fighting the Evil Horde? You make it sound like a shitshow of identity politics and not a fun kid's adventure show.

Everything I've heard about the show--including the gushing over on TBP--makes it sound like 'progressive teen angst fest and shipping drama' is more what they were going for.


Surely automatic disagreement with people you hate is better than a qualified opinion based on direct observation.


Surely a person can form an opinion based on indirect observation. For example, the entire movie critic profession including online amateur commentators.


Normally I would be a fan of something like She-Ra. I like 80's cartoons, I liked the He-Man 2002 reboot. But reports of the direction the creators of She-Ra have taken lead me to believe that I would not like the show. I have a limited amount of free time to spend watching kid's cartoons, and so I pass until/unless I should hear some things about the show that make it seem more appealing to me.



Title: Re: She-Ra reboot has majority LGBTQ+ cast
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 03, 2020, 10:44:44 AM

Look, I think I've demonstrated I'm not a fan and not really qualified to do deep commentary, but I had enough schadenfreude to follow up on this when it blew up and from what I gathered, it's really not as bad as you're making out. Apparently the joke was about a bunch of Bow's siblings having names that rhymed with his, one of them being 'Sow' and a farmer, and looking like a stereotypical American farmer. This seems to have been judged offensive, but there was no direct or explicit association of 'slavery' or 'plantation.'
Does it matter? She doesn't have any respect for She-Ra as an IP except to insert her shallow original characters and abusive last minute romance. She jumped to a position she never merited in the first place, did a terrible job at what she what hired to do, got pitches by actually competent non-white animators unfairly blacklisted, so it's only fair that she gets attacked by her own fans for something completely unrelated to the actual damage she caused.

Normally I would be a fan of something like She-Ra. I like 80's cartoons, I liked the He-Man 2002 reboot. But reports of the direction the creators of She-Ra have taken lead me to believe that I would not like the show. I have a limited amount of free time to spend watching kid's cartoons, and so I pass until/unless I should hear some things about the show that make it seem more appealing to me.
The only people it appeals to are vapid shippers who have no problem with romanticizing abusive relationships and don't care if the world building, characterization, plotting, etc is sloppy and inconsistent.

It doesn't even respect the original show. All the character designs were redone from the grown up, unnecessary original characters were crowbarred in, the cast and crew constantly mocked the original show without any self-awareness...


Mattel doesn't want anything to do with NuRa. The sheer incompetence behind it got other show pitches like Astur's Rebellion unfairly blacklisted for featuring non-white main casts.