Quote from: Ashakyre;935797I had already decided to do this for "powered" magical items, instead of tracking charges or "item mana." Instead I'll go for the Millennium Falcon effect: things always break when you need them most. More "techy," in my humble opinion. And in this way the tech guy is always carrying some piece of broken equipment, or some spares, so s/he needs extra item slots - which you can spend skill points to increase. Totally different feel than Captain Mana Battery.

Edit: Though I think having spell casting creatures use the full/empty method would be great for tracking. That would make things very easy for a GM.

I've been edging that way myself with charged magic items, although I am trying to get away from charged items. I still have x per day items that recharge at dawn or dusk. (Yes they exploit that but found it has never made much of a difference)  My players are honest and track these things, I consider charges more like magical ammo and I've always tracked ammo.  

I've been thinking that on creatures but it is the high powered ones (many spell options and magical ability being the reason they are truly feared) that make it more problematic from the tactical point of view.  I do this with breath weapons.  I always hated count until the dragon is out, now it's more of a constitution type roll, fail and they are out.

Quote from: Xanther;935801I've been edging that way myself with charged magic items, although I am trying to get away from charged items. I still have x per day items that recharge at dawn or dusk. (Yes they exploit that but found it has never made much of a difference)  My players are honest and track these things, I consider charges more like magical ammo and I've always tracked ammo.  

I've been thinking that on creatures but it is the high powered ones (many spell options and magical ability being the reason they are truly feared) that make it more problematic from the tactical point of view.  I do this with breath weapons.  I always hated count until the dragon is out, now it's more of a constitution type roll, fail and they are out.

If I understand you, if the creature has 17 spell-like abilities it's never going to run out of all of them using the constitution roll method. Perhaps you can group them? Fail one of these 4-5 abilities and lose them all? You could be fancy and group them both by type and by power. Thusly, say you has fire, earth, water, air... as well as low, medium, high power. The creature messes up a fire spell, it loses all its fire spells. It messes up a high power spell, it loses all high power spells across element. Perhaps that would work and keep book keeping low.

Quote from: Necrozius;935413I like the idea that spells cost HP, actually, but through ritual, preparation, a good staff or wand and special components, a spellcaster can reduce the cost significantly (even to zero).

Just an idea. I'm not a game designer and I suck at math.

Actually this approach is used in at least two old-school games I'm aware of, Tunnels & Trolls and The Fantasy Trip. In T&T magicians draw power for their spells off their Strength attribute, so as they cast magic they get progressively weaker. Power drains on Strength can knock a magician unconscious or even kill him. Staffs lower the Strength cost of spells a small amount.

In TFT magic draws directly off of the characters hit points (which are referred to has Strength) cast too much magic too fast and you die.

Quote from: Ashakyre;935821If I understand you, if the creature has 17 spell-like abilities it's never going to run out of all of them using the constitution roll method. Perhaps you can group them? Fail one of these 4-5 abilities and lose them all? You could be fancy and group them both by type and by power. Thusly, say you has fire, earth, water, air... as well as low, medium, high power. The creature messes up a fire spell, it loses all its fire spells. It messes up a high power spell, it loses all high power spells across element. Perhaps that would work and keep book keeping low.

Actually the way I would do it if you don't lose each spell like ability per failure, you lose them all as the failed magic roll means you ran out of "mana" to power them.  On constitution abilities like breath weapon, maybe poison, etc. each runs out on their own.  So if you have a dragon with a breath weapon and a poison sting, they run dry separately.   The all or nothing thing could be a problem with spells of different power.  The incentive is to use the most powerful spell as holding back provides you nothing.  I think I'll personally stick with mana points for magic.  I want to incentivize my monsters to use weaker magic if they think it is sufficient to deal with the threat, no need to use mana unnecessarily.

Quote from: Xanther;935836Actually the way I would do it if you don't lose each spell like ability per failure, you lose them all as the failed magic roll means you ran out of "mana" to power them.  On constitution abilities like breath weapon, maybe poison, etc. each runs out on their own.  So if you have a dragon with a breath weapon and a poison sting, they run dry separately.   The all or nothing thing could be a problem with spells of different power.  The incentive is to use the most powerful spell as holding back provides you nothing.  I think I'll personally stick with mana points for magic.  I want to incentivize my monsters to use weaker magic if they think it is sufficient to deal with the threat, no need to use mana unnecessarily.

The weaker magic could simply be less likely to make the monster completely fail out.

Quote from: Ashakyre;935840The weaker magic could simply be less likely to make the monster completely fail out.

 It could, I'd have to remember to modify the roll and unfortunately for me I also don't have a lot of leeway in that mechanics, but if you used a d20 or 2d6 type approach it would work.  I've moved everything to a dice pool, so set higher limits for running out means setting a higher number of unmitigated failures.

Quote from: Spinachcat;935724Mazes & Minotaurs does 1D6 mana per spell. The randomness is very cool. So you got 10 mana...how many spells are you going to cast? 2? 4?

Its a board game, not an RPG. But Warhammer Quest had the wizard roll 1d6 for mana points EVERY ROUND. And on a roll of 1 wandering monsters appeared. (if there was no wizard or they got offed during the adventure then someone else had to roll.)

Personally its a bit too much random having to roll every spell or every round.

More acceptable would be say only rolling when you try to pump more power into a spell than it normally requires. Rolling to see if the strain costs you more MP than normal. Thus keeping the rolls down to a manageable rate and making mana burn maneuvers more risky.

Quote from: Omega;935883Its a board game, not an RPG. But Warhammer Quest had the wizard roll 1d6 for mana points EVERY ROUND. And on a roll of 1 wandering monsters appeared. (if there was no wizard or they got offed during the adventure then someone else had to roll.)

Personally its a bit too much random having to roll every spell or every round.

More acceptable would be say only rolling when you try to pump more power into a spell than it normally requires. Rolling to see if the strain costs you more MP than normal. Thus keeping the rolls down to a manageable rate and making mana burn maneuvers more risky.

It's pretty common to have an activation roll every time you try to cast a spell, to see if it goes off. Replacing that with a mana roll to see how much power the caster can channel might be interesting.

Normal success means the spell goes off, and the exact roll might determine things like damage.

A low roll might mean the spell is underpowered. For the great wizards, that probably just means the spell performed a bit below their normal expectations -- i.e. it still goes off, it's just not their best work. But for lesser wizards, it would generally mean failure. Though even then, the wizard might have the option to accept some complications, in order to boost the spell over the edge. This could include real injury, taking an extra round, an unpleasant side effect, partial failure, or the like.

A high roll mean the spell has some excess power. A straightforward boost is obvious, but it could be more interesting to allow the spell to grow in secondary ways. Award some fuel, and allow the player to spend it on effects related to the original spell, making it more complete or comprehensive. Though I'd also let the DM impose a minor tertiary effect, just for flavor. Power like that spills over, so maybe it causes a cold spot to manifest, or a minor thematic transformation, like those in Ovid.

Quote from: Pat;935913A low roll might mean the spell is underpowered. For the great wizards, that probably just means the spell performed a bit below their normal expectations -- i.e. it still goes off, it's just not their best work. But for lesser wizards, it would generally mean failure. Though even then, the wizard might have the option to accept some complications, in order to boost the spell over the edge. This could include real injury, taking an extra round, an unpleasant side effect, partial failure, or the like.

A high roll mean the spell has some excess power. A straightforward boost is obvious, but it could be more interesting to allow the spell to grow in secondary ways. Award some fuel, and allow the player to spend it on effects related to the original spell, making it more complete or comprehensive. Though I'd also let the DM impose a minor tertiary effect, just for flavor. Power like that spills over, so maybe it causes a cold spot to manifest, or a minor thematic transformation, like those in Ovid.

That all sounds very much like how spells play out in DCC... which doesn't have MP exactly, but the MU can temporarily 'Spellburn' certain stats to boost the casting roll. It has the variable effects, including weird tertiary stuff... some of which can be permanent.

Quote from: Simlasa;935917That all sounds very much like how spells play out in DCC... which doesn't have MP exactly, but the MU can temporarily 'Spellburn' certain stats to boost the casting roll. It has the variable effects, including weird tertiary stuff... some of which can be permanent.

Yes, none of these are new ideas. Though I was thinking more UMana or Unknown Armies, myself.

I think one of the more overlooked aspects on mana point systems is how and when mana points are acquired or are regenerated.  

If a a character simply regenerates all of their spell points with a good night's sleep, that's pretty flavorless and makes magic commonplace and easy - which is OK for some settings.  It is also quite powerful.  RQ6 made the suggestion (I'm sure it is a not a new one) that a GM can tailor the way magic works in his world by limiting access to magic points.  A GM might allow for a slow recovery of MPs, but characters can use actions like sacrifice, placating the gods, using magical locations or charms, talking to the spirit world, etc. to gather magic points in a hurry, or for just the right spell.  Or, magic points can be aspected so that certain MP are for a specific spell or type of magic.  In this way, the knowledge of spellcasting is only half of the equation, the other is gathering the mana to actually power the spell. It adds a new dimension to playing a wizard. I'm sure it is not a new idea (I remember an old game called swordbearer where a spell caster had to seek out magical "nodes," which were aspected, to recharge their magical batteries), but I don't see it in action very often.

I also prefer magic systems in which there is some kind of risk in using magic.  

For me at least, it makes tampering with the fabric of the universe feel more magical and helps to offset the problems of the quadratic wizard.  DCC, Hellfrost (savage Worlds), and WFRP2 do a great job of making magic-users cautions and respectful of their own power.

All that said, D&D Vancian magic works very well for what it sets out to accomplish, and most systems that attempt to tack mana points on to that system often compromise some of the benefits of that system (Crypts and Things' hack of the Vancian OD&D system though is one of the better adaptations I have seen).

Quote from: Madprofessor;935965I think one of the more overlooked aspects on mana point systems is how and when mana points are acquired or are regenerated.  

If a a character simply regenerates all of their spell points with a good night's sleep, that's pretty flavorless and makes magic commonplace and easy - which is OK for some settings.  It is also quite powerful.  RQ6 made the suggestion (I'm sure it is a not a new one) that a GM can tailor the way magic works in his world by limiting access to magic points.  A GM might allow for a slow recovery of MPs, but characters can use actions like sacrifice, placating the gods, using magical locations or charms, talking to the spirit world, etc. to gather magic points in a hurry, or for just the right spell.  Or, magic points can be aspected so that certain MP are for a specific spell or type of magic.  In this way, the knowledge of spellcasting is only half of the equation, the other is gathering the mana to actually power the spell. It adds a new dimension to playing a wizard. I'm sure it is not a new idea (I remember an old game called swordbearer where a spell caster had to seek out magical "nodes," which were aspected, to recharge their magical batteries), but I don't see it in action very often.

I also prefer magic systems in which there is some kind of risk in using magic.  

For me at least, it makes tampering with the fabric of the universe feel more magical and helps to offset the problems of the quadratic wizard.  DCC, Hellfrost (savage Worlds), and WFRP2 do a great job of making magic-users cautions and respectful of their own power.

All that said, D&D Vancian magic works very well for what it sets out to accomplish, and most systems that attempt to tack mana points on to that system often compromise some of the benefits of that system (Crypts and Things' hack of the Vancian OD&D system though is one of the better adaptations I have seen).

Interesting ways to regenerate Mana points would be this methods analog to the.vancian quest for new grimores.

Quote from: Madprofessor;935965I think one of the more overlooked aspects on mana point systems is how and when mana points are acquired or are regenerated.  

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I use an approach where you have a regeneration rate per 4 hours rest.  True rest with good food and drink, any interruption and you don't get any; one reasons wizards tend to be reclusive.  The rate is not that high so at higher caster levels it could take days to regain all your mana.  But overnight you can readily regain enough for a good couple first and second level spells.  In my game you get to pick your advancement with level, one thing you could pick is mana regeneration instead of HP or mana points or a save bonus, etc.   You are right it also opens up the door for items, like arcane incense or black lotus that can increase the regeneration rate, mana potions for that insta-increase, and tomes and grimoires that improve this ability.  

I also have creatures that like to feed off your mana, you get a save and you can get it back but it is a drag.

Quote from: Xanther;935976I use an approach where you have a regeneration rate per 4 hours rest.  True rest with good food and drink, any interruption and you don't get any; one reasons wizards tend to be reclusive.  The rate is not that high so at higher caster levels it could take days to regain all your mana.  But overnight you can readily regain enough for a good couple first and second level spells.  In my game you get to pick your advancement with level, one thing you could pick is mana regeneration instead of HP or mana points or a save bonus, etc.   You are right it also opens up the door for items, like arcane incense or black lotus that can increase the regeneration rate, mana potions for that insta-increase, and tomes and grimoires that improve this ability.  

I also have creatures that like to feed off your mana, you get a save and you can get it back but it is a drag.

Does the black lotus let you regenerate any kind of mana?

Quote from: Xanther;935976I use an approach where you have a regeneration rate per 4 hours rest.  True rest with good food and drink, any interruption and you don't get any; one reasons wizards tend to be reclusive.  The rate is not that high so at higher caster levels it could take days to regain all your mana.  But overnight you can readily regain enough for a good couple first and second level spells.  In my game you get to pick your advancement with level, one thing you could pick is mana regeneration instead of HP or mana points or a save bonus, etc.   You are right it also opens up the door for items, like arcane incense or black lotus that can increase the regeneration rate, mana potions for that insta-increase, and tomes and grimoires that improve this ability.  

Exactly.  Part of of my point here is that mana acquisition is more interesting if it is something a wizard does in game rather than as a simple mechanical computation.  It makes magic more valuable (for lack of a better word).  How you run it depends on your world, but a druid might need to commune with nature and might have his mana recovery severely reduced in a city.  A cleric would benefit from prayer in a temple or sacred place.  A "mana potion" or drug might make a character violently ill (perhaps requiring a CON check), give him strange dreams, or simply be an instant boost depending on the setting. A bard might be rewarded MPs for composing a story or particularly strong performance.  Even a warrior might gain mana for battle (though he may not know how to use it or realize that he has it - depending on setting).

QuoteI also have creatures that like to feed off your mana, you get a save and you can get it back but it is a drag.

Good idea! Perhaps even the undead (level drain) sap your mana.  Also wizard duels might be a competition over mana leaving one wizard empowered and the other an empty husk.

There are lots of ideas to play with, ways to make magic unique to your world - if you make magical power a meaningful in-game reward rather than a mechanical bookeeping gift.