Quote from: Ashakyre;935986Does the black lotus let you regenerate any kind of mana?

Yes, as there is only one kind.  I'd thought of having it only work for necromancy knowing spell casters but decided on a different approach. You have a chance of going "mad," losing (player choice) mana or xp permanently (not as bad as in D&D) when you use it.  To avoid going mad you need to make what I call a Necromancy Magic Save, you can imagine those that deal in undeath and death magic might focus on improving this save.  So it works out for those types.  I also give it some more flavor, that may actual make a difference, like horrific visions that may be of the future, or past.  I think of the following (courtesy of Black Sabbath)

Visions cupped within a flower
 Deadly petals with strange power
 Faces shine a deadly smile
 Look upon you at your trial

 Chill and numbs from head to toe
 Icy sun with frosty glow
 Words that grow read to your sorrow
 Words that grow read no tomorrow

 Feel your spirit rise with the breeze
 Feel your body falling to its knees
 Sleeping wall of remorse
 Turns your body to a corpse
 Turns your body to a corpse
 Turns your body to a corpse
 Sleeping wall of remorse
 Turns your body to a corpse

Quote from: Madprofessor;935994Exactly.  Part of of my point here is that mana acquisition is more interesting if it is something a wizard does in game rather than as a simple mechanical computation.  It makes magic more valuable (for lack of a better word).  How you run it depends on your world, but a druid might need to commune with nature and might have his mana recovery severely reduced in a city.  A cleric would benefit from prayer in a temple or sacred place.  A "mana potion" or drug might make a character violently ill (perhaps requiring a CON check), give him strange dreams, or simply be an instant boost depending on the setting. A bard might be rewarded MPs for composing a story or particularly strong performance.  Even a warrior might gain mana for battle (though he may not know how to use it or realize that he has it - depending on setting).

Basically yes to it all.  Especially in the religious aspect, the more you invest in devotion to a deity/force the greater benefits you get on their "sacred" ground.  The down side is deity/forces opposed to you have weapons/magic that hurt you more and you suffer on their "sacred" ground.  Or you could just avoid all the god-mongering nonsense and steer a middle road.  On bards, I see it as coming from recharging the creative juices and inspiration, so that may entail contemplation of a perfect note, or wine, women and song.

There are regions where mana recovery is faster, very prized and hard to find, and where it has been depleted and gone away, making recovery hard.  (ala T"he Magic Goes Away" by Larry Niven).

QuoteGood idea! Perhaps even the undead (level drain) sap your mana.

Well more demons and such, but oh yah.

QuoteAlso wizard duels might be a competition over mana leaving one wizard empowered and the other an empty husk.

Like in The Raven (1963)?    I do have magic duels and spell that drain and transfer mana, from a distance even.

QuoteThere are lots of ideas to play with, ways to make magic unique to your world - if you make magical power a meaningful in-game reward rather than a mechanical bookeeping gift.

Yes, I don't necessarily codify a lot of it.  I try to lay out a pretty internally consistent framework. Where there are open questions I let my players know why that is good question and an open area of magical research, maybe they will be the first ones to find an answer.  First you need a really good library, a really good lab...etc., etc. or they could fund someone to do it for them.

The idea of spells using hit points sounds interesting.

Maybe each level of spell uses the next step up of dice.

For instance, level 0 spells: you take d4 damage. Level 1: d6 damage. Level 2: d8. Level 3: d10. Level 4: d12. Level 5: d20.

Hmm, that doesn't escalate enough...

Maybe increasing number of d4s.

Level 0: 1d4.
Level 1: 2d4.
Level 2: 3d4.
Level 3: 4d4.
Level 4: 5d4.
Level 5: 6d4.
Level 6: 7d4.

Etc.

I'm not sure if those are too high though. You might KO yourself with just one spell...

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;936118The idea of spells using hit points sounds interesting.

Maybe each level of spell uses the next step up of dice.

For instance, level 0 spells: you take d4 damage. Level 1: d6 damage. Level 2: d8. Level 3: d10. Level 4: d12. Level 5: d20.

Hmm, that doesn't escalate enough...

Maybe increasing number of d4s.

Level 0: 1d4.
Level 1: 2d4.
Level 2: 3d4.
Level 3: 4d4.
Level 4: 5d4.
Level 5: 6d4.
Level 6: 7d4.

Etc.

I'm not sure if those are too high though. You might KO yourself with just one spell...

I'd keep it more as an increasing chance of taking higher damage, rather than a sure thing.

Maybe something like:

Cantrips: automatically succeed, roll 1D6, on a 1 take 1 HP

A caster has a level between 1 and 5.
Each spell has a difficulty number (but no level, so any caster can theoretically attempt any spell they come across in a grimoire or scroll)

The caster rolls a number of d6 equal to their level. Certain Magic items/Foci, like wands, can add a dice.
The caster can choose to expend HP to increase the chance of the spell succeeding (sacrificing 3 HP adds one dice)
The caster can spend a turn doing a ritual to increase the chance of the spell succeeding (add one dice)

If the caster equals or beats the spell's difficulty, the spell succeeds and the caster loses no HP.
If the caster rolls two or more 6s, the spell succeeds but too much energy is channelled through the caster and they lose d6 HP for each 6 rolled.
If the spell fails, the caster loses HP equal to the amount failed by, minus their spell casting level, +D6HP for each 1 rolled.

One thing I think would be cool flavor wise but I find difficult to execute mechanically is something akin to how channelers in The Wheel of Time have to "seize the source" before they weave spells. The upshot is if a channeler is caught flat footed he's kind of screwed, especially if caught flat footed by another channeler. What they do is sort of reach inside themselves somewhere and grab hold of the source (or if female surrender to it) and then they're ready to weave spells. Of course, no one can hold on the Source forever, and you have to rest, but that's a little different than the physical exhaustion of channeling a lot of Power. It's more like the mental concentration of focusing for so long.

Mechanically, it would be easy enough to say "it takes x turns to to access mana, roll y" but the real issue is how long characters can remain in that state and how remaining in that stat restricts them. I avoid mechanics that require tracking turns. I don't like doing it for a lot of reasons. And the issue is compounded by the fact that when you're moving around a dungeon it may not be in strict time keeping, and pretty much every player would always holding on to the source.

In my game some spells have a descriptor/mechanic called "tethering," which basically means once you've moved x distance from the "anchor" all your tethered spells dissipate. It's basically a way to store time. You have to invest extra time to cast a tethered spell, and you can't take it with you. Anyway, I could make "accessing the source" a tethered effect, to demonstrate you reaching out to your surroundings to draw energy for your spells. And once you've moved a certain distance away have to do it all over again. Perhaps accessing source in an area in this way carries the risk of mana loss. Perhaps you reach out for different kinds of energy, each one separately. (There's 4 magic disciplines in the game.)

The problem with this is it adds a layer of complication to the game that strictly mechanically doesn't need to be there. But if it feels really good, it might be cool. It would absolutely be a great contrast to another major archetype of the game, artificers, whose magical items are always ready to go, but are utterly dependent on what they can find / loot / repair / assemble.

This thread gave me an interesting idea for mana points in the system I created. I think it adds in bookkeeping that I want to get rid of but thought it might be of interest based on ideas from others here.

First, in my system, all rolls are opposed die rolls (using d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and sometimes the d20), usually not separated by more than one die size. (I'll leave out modifiers for this.)

So, to use magic on something or someone you roll your "magic" skill die versus the magic/defense die of the target (or the difficulty die of the target).

Let's use, d10 versus d8, with d10 being the character (attacker).

If the rolls are equal, the spell goes off as planned, at no or minimal mana cost.

If the d10 is less than the d8, the character can spend mana to raise the roll to match the defender. Maybe limit amount of mana that can be spent based on level? (In addition to amount of mana available.)

If the d10 is greater than the d8, then the spell costs the "regular" amount of mana.

You guys are Elric fans, right?

How about a system where you supplement your inner reserve of mana by killing enemies and harvesting their souls?

Quote from: Ashakyre;935427100% true.

Isn't this how a MU is run properly?

Quote from: Ashakyre;936374One thing I think would be cool flavor wise but I find difficult to execute mechanically is something akin to how channelers in The Wheel of Time have to "seize the source" before they weave spells. (...)

Mechanically, it would be easy enough to say "it takes x turns to to access mana, roll y" but the real issue is how long characters can remain in that state and how remaining in that stat restricts them.

Sovereign Stone (the proto-Cortex) had spells with difficulty levels. A mage had to roll his attribute + magic skill dice, add them, for several rounds until he had reached the difficulty. Each round casting time the mage took 1 pt stun damage.
After completing the spell the mage could delay it for up to three rounds.

Castle Falkenstein did something similar with cards. A spell was tied to a suit (say, a love spell to Hearts), plus having a difficulty in mana costs. The mage had to collect mana from the surrounding area: drawing cards from the stack. Each card of the "correct" suit added its value, each card of other suits had to be ignored/discarded (prolonging the casting time) or, if used, added the highest conflicting suit's effect to the spell effect - like, giving an emotional spell a material side-effect.
The collected mana had to be used immediately.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;936467Sovereign Stone (the proto-Cortex) had spells with difficulty levels. A mage had to roll his attribute + magic skill dice, add them, for several rounds until he had reached the difficulty. Each round casting time the mage took 1 pt stun damage.
After completing the spell the mage could delay it for up to three rounds.

I think I remember Unisystem, in its Witchcraft incarnation, doing something very similar... unless the Witch had some rare skill that let magic power be channeled directly (vs. being gathered up).
IIRC that game also rules that gathering lots of magic power into yourself can be intoxicating/addicting and have bad side effects.

Didn't the Wheel of Time d20 system have a kind of inverse mana system, at least for the guys? You could cast spells, but too many and Bad Things Happened.

I've never liked mana-point systems.  They're prone to giving way too much leeway to magic-users, who tend to already be too powerful. In Vancian D&D you at least have the situation where the wizard is stuck with the spells he chose at the start of the day.
In a system like DCC, which I love, the wizard can recast spells as long as he succeeds, but that means he every time he uses the spell he risks losing it.

With mana points, the wizard can choose any spell in his repertoire, and he always knows when he's going to run out of points. Too predictable, too much control.

Quote from: RPGPundit;937084I've never liked mana-point systems.  They're prone to giving way too much leeway to magic-users, who tend to already be too powerful. In Vancian D&D you at least have the situation where the wizard is stuck with the spells he chose at the start of the day.
In a system like DCC, which I love, the wizard can recast spells as long as he succeeds, but that means he every time he uses the spell he risks losing it.

With mana points, the wizard can choose any spell in his repertoire, and he always knows when he's going to run out of points. Too predictable, too much control.

What's your opinion on mana point systens where you only lose mana if you fail a roll? There's an element of unpredictabllility there, is it enough?

Also, what if the system embraces caster supremacy?

Quote from: RPGPundit;937084With mana points, the wizard can choose any spell in his repertoire, and he always knows when he's going to run out of points. Too predictable, too much control.

As has been mentioned already here, there can be a lot of variety in how an MP-based magic system operates... so your complaints aren't a given for all of them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;937084With mana points, the wizard can choose any spell in his repertoire, and he always knows when he's going to run out of points. Too predictable, too much control.

True. But a Vancian wizard knows when they are out of spells too. They just dont know if the spells they prepped will be usefull or not today.