Problems with Mana Point Systems

cranebump · December 28, 2016, 07:33:54 PM

I'm not sure how it will ultimately run, but I'm putting an Exhaustion system into play, which includes rules for losing spells on back to back casting failures. Since Accrued exhaustion subtracts from casting, you can, eventually, end up with a negative casting number, which causes feedback. But, again, I have to playtest it to determine how effective it will be.

RPGPundit · January 06, 2017, 05:44:47 AM

Quote from: Omega;937201True. But a Vancian wizard knows when they are out of spells too. They just dont know if the spells they prepped will be usefull or not today.

That's still better than mana points, because the uncertainty at least exists. It's just front loaded. Ultimately, though, I think my favorite method is the DCC-style method, where the magic-user never knows how much spell-power he'll have left.

Simlasa · January 06, 2017, 01:45:10 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;938978That's still better than mana points, because the uncertainty at least exists.

There's no reason mana points HAVE to be known to the Player. Easy enough to roll for their recovery at the start of the day and keep the result hidden... maybe have a spell devoted to revealing how much 'magic power' is within a person or a thing (charges on a magic item), but otherwise unaware of how many fireballs you can throw that day.

Does the desire to uncertainty in magic extend to favoring a similar vagueness regarding hit points?

tenbones · January 06, 2017, 02:10:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;938978That's still better than mana points, because the uncertainty at least exists. It's just front loaded. Ultimately, though, I think my favorite method is the DCC-style method, where the magic-user never knows how much spell-power he'll have left.

I've been thinking about this. I totally agree that the lack of "danger" (or failure) to the Manapoint idea (which I actually like) is a potential issue. I never played DCC - but I like the sound of that kind of casting system. It fulfills most of the things I dislike about the D&D "Vancian" slot-system.

Would you have a different opinion on mana-points if there was a roll involved and it did have a chance at failure? Talislanta does that, and is probably the reason why I came to like mana-points. ICE did too, but obviously the expressions of these systems are vastly different and where ultimately the rubber hits the road.

Skarg · January 07, 2017, 10:50:04 PM

TFT & original GURPS Magic (there are several GURPS magic systems by now) are mana-point based (they use strength or health as mana points, making casters weaker when they cast, unless they have enough apprentices or drain victims or powerstones or something to not need to do that).

They also involve rolls to successfully cast spells, as well as to-hit and resistance rolls in many/most cases. So they're not predictable (except inasmuch as you might get really likely to succeed with enough skill), but they do have no limits on how much you can stick to a particular spell, unless the GM adds some limits such as ingredient requirements or frequency penalties.

RPGPundit · January 11, 2017, 07:04:25 AM

Quote from: Simlasa;939114There's no reason mana points HAVE to be known to the Player. Easy enough to roll for their recovery at the start of the day and keep the result hidden... maybe have a spell devoted to revealing how much 'magic power' is within a person or a thing (charges on a magic item), but otherwise unaware of how many fireballs you can throw that day.

Does the desire to uncertainty in magic extend to favoring a similar vagueness regarding hit points?

That would require a great deal of book-keeping by the GM. Not good.

And no, hit points are different.

TrippyHippy · January 11, 2017, 07:06:53 AM

I like magic systems that create a sense of magic - usually guided by some overarching paradigm and a system that emulates that. Mana point systems are functional, but boring to me.

Simlasa · January 11, 2017, 08:03:57 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit;939930That would require a great deal of book-keeping by the GM. Not good.

Not all that much more than tracking HP for another PC.

QuoteAnd no, hit points are different.

Why are they so different? It's a number that rises and decreases during play?

TrippyHippy · January 11, 2017, 08:19:05 AM

Quote from: Simlasa;939939Not all that much more than tracking HP for another PC.

Why are they so different? It's a number that rises and decreases during play?

HP, unlike magic, aren't required to feel magical in play.

Simlasa · January 11, 2017, 09:28:31 AM

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939943HP, unlike magic, aren't required to feel magical in play.

I was only bringing that up in terms of predictability... that predictable/quantifiable combat seems OK... while I don't think that MPs alone are inherently any more predictable than the usual D&D spell slots.

Tristram Evans · January 11, 2017, 10:12:03 AM

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939943HP, unlike magic, aren't required to feel magical in play.

but they can, if you write them on your character sheet with glitter pens

RPGPundit · January 13, 2017, 03:18:47 AM

Quote from: Simlasa;939953I was only bringing that up in terms of predictability... that predictable/quantifiable combat seems OK... while I don't think that MPs alone are inherently any more predictable than the usual D&D spell slots.

You generally have an idea of how well or ill you feel. That's emulative.

Now, unless you're counting 'real world occultism' or something like that, there is no 'emulative' when it comes to magic. So it is a question of preference. My preference is that you generally wouldn't have a clear idea of whether your magic is bound to be reliable or useful or not.

Psikerlord · January 13, 2017, 05:31:35 AM

Quote from: Baron Opal;935408The problems I have had with mana point systems is the vastly increased flexibility it offers.

For D&D systems, controlling the number of spells the magician has access to is key. With a mana point system, magicians are able to cast more lower level spells and fewer higher level spells than the "Vancian norm". However, their ability to either cast multiples of the same spell in a day, or being able to cast from any of their "problem solvers" as needed (knock, levitate, charm person, &c.) gives them a disproportionate power.

As a proof of that, look at the number of different spells vs. spells per day of the 3.X magician and sorcerer.

Edit: As I recall, we used Class Level x 2 = Mana Points, Spell Level x 2 = Mana Cost, +X mana for high attributes (1-6?). It was pretty simple. Spell storage items always stored specific spells, never raw mana.

I agree. D&D Psionics has traditionally been OP because you nova your best power out the gate, or spam your favourite/most effective power, or use your utilities exactly when you need them. As some other posters have suggested, I think you would need to combine some drawback with mana points to make it balance - unreliability, side effects, drain, etc

Ashakyre · January 13, 2017, 09:34:02 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit;940357You generally have an idea of how well or ill you feel. That's emulative.

Now, unless you're counting 'real world occultism' or something like that, there is no 'emulative' when it comes to magic. So it is a question of preference. My preference is that you generally wouldn't have a clear idea of whether your magic is bound to be reliable or useful or not.

Maybe. Channelers got tired in Wheel of Time.

Simlasa · January 13, 2017, 10:27:59 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit;940357You generally have an idea of how well or ill you feel. That's emulative.

Not necessarily in the heat of battle, and not very accurately. Plenty of stories of folks hurt real bad and not rea
izing it.

QuoteMy preference is that you generally wouldn't have a clear idea of whether your magic is bound to be reliable or useful or not.

See, I see no inherent difference there between MP and spell slots in that regard... you know if you have a spell or not, and you know if you can cast it. That's it... saving throws of the target, rolling spell checks, blowback are all extra bits we add on to tweak the flavor.
If you're comparing a particular implementation of one or the other... D&D spellcasting vs, spelcasting in Runequest... that's a different conversation.