RPGnet's decay (TBP madness)

[Ghostmaker]

Because historically, children learn about gender, male/female, romantic relationships, and marriage well before six years old. Those topics have never been avoided in school education in prior decades, and it was always acceptable to read something like Beauty and the Beast at story time, for example.

English is a gendered language. We teach kids gender as they are first learning to speak, not in middle school.

Citations needed as to why K-3 need explicit instruction in sex and gender at that age beyond basic language (which, I might add, woketards are shitting up anyways with their whines about 'gendered pronouns' and whatnot).

These aren't basic 'this is a boy and this is a girl' instruction, either. We've got teachers insisting it's their nonexistent-deity-granted right to bring drag queens in for storytime.

[jeff37923]

And fuck you and you're bullshit virtue signalling about how delightfully woke your family is. You know why? Because you are the same hypocritical twat who posted on Dellaforno's Facebook page to declare about how you posted here to troll us neanderthals in an effort to show much of a social justice warrior you were.

I'm not buying it. You perfectly understand what I'm saying. You just don't want to look at the reality of the situation because an honest appraisal of it will destroy your outlook on fighting for the cause using these tactics.

Fuck you, jeff. What I said to Dellaforno's friend is that we're a bunch of assholes here - which is exactly the same thing I say to your face. Most of us here will proudly admit to that. I didn't say anything on Facebook that I don't say here.

The only thing I said just now was that I had gay friends - so you're claiming that having gay friends is being "woke". But I know plenty of libertarian or even conservative folks who have gay friends, or are gay themselves. You can accuse me of being woke over other things, but being gay or having gay friends doesn't mean that someone is woke.

Bullshit.

My son learned about gender before he could speak, like all kids as far as I know. He knew that there was male and female, and had to learn appropriate pronouns as part of speaking. During the process of learning to speak, he also learned traditional classification of people as boys or girls, men or women, based on their appearance.

He was also exposed to stories of romantic love well before kindergarten - like in movies, picture books, and TV. We had brought him to two weddings I think before he was in 1st grade - his aunt's and a friend's. He was ringbearer for his aunt. So he knew about love, romance, and marriage. The friend's wedding was a same-sex wedding, so he knew that two women could get married (though it had no legal meaning at the time). After he got to elementary school, he made a friend whose parents were lesbians - so he also knew through that.

Is you using your son as a standard bearer to impress upon the reader how socially just your son has been raised by you. It is virtue signalling at its lowest and is woke as Hell.

Meanwhile, you're acting as if the Florida bill prevents explicit sex ed in grades K-3, but that's not what the bill does. It allows any degree of sex ed to kids, as long as it's hetero sex. What it does is ban any discussion of gayness. And my position is there's nothing inappropriate to kids in K-3 about stuff like marriage, parents, growing up, and similar.

Wow. It is like you have not bothered to read the Florida bill at all and are just making shit up. Why don't you try reading the bill?

Or, better yet, since you think that readers are stupid, show us the exact wording in the Florida bill where it only allows the teaching of hetero sex ed to kids grade K-3 and demands that people "don't say gay". Can you do that at least?

I keep seeing "You didn't read the bill" repeated by both sides here. So, here is the relevant text:

In its preamble, the bill's authors write that their aim is to prohibit "classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity."

Later, the bill states:

"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

Hey look, it is the other flavor of jell-o!

Nowhere in your quotes, which don't link back to a verified representation of the bill, does it say "don't say gay". Your quotes appear to say that discussion of that subject matter of ANY orientation will not occur.

So thank you for supporting my argument.

Hey Jeff, believe it or not I was not posting to agree or disagree with anyone. If you think those are not the actual quotes from the bill then feel free to google them. All I was doing was trying to be helpful by posting the relevant sections people were discussing so everyone was on the same page for their discussion. The only "position" I've posted on this topic at all is I wish the authors of the bill had been more clear and used specific examples of behavior which is acceptable or not acceptable rather than leaving it to each district and each school to interpret those clauses for themselves, because I've repeatedly seen what poorly phrased vague bills do in the education system and all that does is waste everyone's time.

For instance, I wish the bill said something like, "if the topic of sexuality comes up in the classroom, teachers should refer students to discuss that matter with their parent or guardian rather than discussing it in class." or something like that. Let teachers and parents know what's expected concerning these matters.

Hey Mistwell, believe it or not, I think you are just trying to obfuscate the discussion because you post quotes but do not bother to post a link to where you got those quotes.

[GeekyBugle]

My intent in bringing up Bambi is simply that I thought it was a well-known example of what's historically considered appropriate for kids. Obviously, it's not a K-3 school lesson, but to discuss, we need commonly-understood examples of what is appropriate.

There is a difference between watching Bambi, which is a non-interactive animated movie that literally has nothing to do with sexuality in theme, and an adult human authority figure with an agenda to inculcate the mind of a child with their specific viewpoint on sexual practices that *they* arbitrarily find "normal" for the express purpose of promoting such.

Thanks for replying, tenbones. I don't see how you can claim that the "twitterpated" sequences have nothing to do with sexuality, though. Maybe you're talking about the movie as a whole, and forgetting about the coming-of-age scenes? I'm speaking about the sequences like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNduKCy6FRs

The scenes are all about becoming romantically interested and pairing off with romantic partners.

Simple solution to this debate.

Tell me why (opponents of this bill) you want to, or think it's needful, to discuss sex, gender, or sexual dynamics with six year old children.

Because historically, children learn about gender, male/female, romantic relationships, and marriage well before six years old. Those topics have never been avoided in school education in prior decades, and it was always acceptable to read something like Beauty and the Beast at story time, for example.

English is a gendered language. We teach kids gender as they are first learning to speak, not in middle school.

And also historically they were "thaught" that they could magically change their sex (Gender is an invention of Dr. John Money, a fine example of a pedophile leftard who caused TWO suicides and yet you fools keep on pushing his depravity) and how to insert stuff up their assholes before age six...

Somehow, magically it seems there was a 4000% increase in "transgender" children in the UK. I'm totally sure their teachers didn't push this on them, just like I'm sure the school nurses weren't giving children puberty blockers behind the parent's backs.

I'm still for gay marriage and adults being able to chop whatever part of their body and injecting hormones into their bodies.

But keep your filthy hands away of the children!

[Ghostmaker]

Back to the grind. This one is interesting.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/dartz_irl-receives-a-%F0%9F%9A%AB-seven-day-ban.895810/

No explanation. BAM, seven day ban.

Dartz_IRL's post, for the curious.

Okay. Let me get this straight.

So, it turns out that the Russian army have abandoned their dead in the street where they fell. Potentially for weeks. While they occupied places.

Oh.

And they've been denying compensation to the families of those KIA because they were officially still listed as on an exercise, rather than being on a military operation.

Oh

And they've been abandoning front-line units to get ground to meat paste by retreating from behind them without even having the grace to warn them they'll be the rearguard.... they were just too slow so were left to be slaughtered.

Oh

And they've been bulking some units up with as much as 50% conscripts, without telling the higher-ups that they've been doing that. So, it's untrained or barely trained conscripts now being put to the sword.

Oh

And the whole, Go Dig a Trench through the puked up guts of Chernobyl. So now, you have soldiers dead and sick through radiation poisoning.

Oh

And the tank that got flipped off the bridge a few weeks back was finally pulled out of the water by Ukraine. The crew were still inside. Nobody bothered to try rescue them - they just drove off an left them in there. For two weeks.

Oh

And it was all for nothing. Everything waiting at home is worse than when you left for a two week exercise eight weeks ago.

Pretty grim shit if true. But... I'm bemused as to how this justifies a ban. Both Q99 and Zeea were both posting in the thread, and I didn't see any redtext slapdown.

Dawgstar tossed DarkStarling a threadban (which doesn't show up in Infractions, hilariously) for what amounts to 'your posting style is mean'. Wuss.

Then the thread got locked. Miss Atomic Bomb (the same one who whacked Dartz_IRL with that seven day) had this to say:

We're noticing that most people are discussing the complexities of the situation just fine. But there are two things that are really disruptive: one side basically talking about the poor pitiful war criminal soldiers, and the other side saying that every single person in Russia is undeserving of sympathy and needs to be isolated from the rest of the world. And then that keeps disrupting the conversation and the people making reasonable arguments start getting mad at each other because they can't keep track of who said what.

Because of this and other cycles we want to break, we're keeping this thread closed for about 24 hours.

(Mods log on at varying times of the day, so don't be worried if it's close for slightly longer.)

Which STILL doesn't fit what Dartz was opining (namely, the Russians are treating their own troops like garbage).

But hey, it's TBP. Consistency is not something they follow, like, ever.

[jhkim]

I'm still for gay marriage and adults being able to chop whatever part of their body and injecting hormones into their bodies.

But keep your filthy hands away of the children!

From my view, the vast majority of LGBT people I know all have stories of being bullied, threatened, and/or beaten up for acting queer when they were children. They were sometimes abused by their peers, thrown out by their parents, and ignored or worse by their teachers. This sort of abuse has been extremely widespread and common.

I know from news reports and surveys that there are also people who were victimized as children by LGBT abusers, and that is just as horrendous, but I don't know personally anyone who had this happen to them. The people I know who were sexually abused are all women who were abused by straight men when they were girls.

I want an end to all this abuse - and as I said, I think the best way to avoid abuse is to educate children to recognize it and speak up when it happens. Everyone in kids' lives should be clear about this to them.

[jeff37923]

I'm still for gay marriage and adults being able to chop whatever part of their body and injecting hormones into their bodies.

But keep your filthy hands away of the children!

From my view, the vast majority of LGBT people I know all have stories of being bullied, threatened, and/or beaten up for acting queer when they were children. They were sometimes abused by their peers, thrown out by their parents, and ignored or worse by their teachers. This sort of abuse has been extremely widespread and common.

I know from news reports and surveys that there are also people who were victimized as children by LGBT abusers, and that is just as horrendous, but I don't know personally anyone who had this happen to them. The people I know who were sexually abused are all women who were abused by straight men when they were girls.

I want an end to all this abuse - and as I said, I think the best way to avoid abuse is to educate children to recognize it and speak up when it happens. Everyone in kids' lives should be clear about this to them.

Bolding Mine.

*Raises hand*

Point of clarification here.

1) What do you mean by "acting queer"? Is there a set of behaviors which objectively define that the person exhibiting them are queer? Could you tell us what they are?

2) Are you saying that since you personally do not know of anyone abused by a GBLT that means that the abuse does not exist? Are you saying that since you only personally know women who were abused by straight white men that only straight white men can commit abuse?

[Ratman_tf]

I'm still for gay marriage and adults being able to chop whatever part of their body and injecting hormones into their bodies.

But keep your filthy hands away of the children!

From my view, the vast majority of LGBT people I know all have stories of being bullied, threatened, and/or beaten up for acting queer when they were children. They were sometimes abused by their peers, thrown out by their parents, and ignored or worse by their teachers. This sort of abuse has been extremely widespread and common.

If teachers are part of the problem, they're not the types we should want instructing K-3 students about sex and orientation.

Even if one thinks they should be doing it at all, which I don't.

[GeekyBugle]

I'm still for gay marriage and adults being able to chop whatever part of their body and injecting hormones into their bodies.

But keep your filthy hands away of the children!

From my view, the vast majority of LGBT people I know all have stories of being bullied, threatened, and/or beaten up for acting queer when they were children. They were sometimes abused by their peers, thrown out by their parents, and ignored or worse by their teachers. This sort of abuse has been extremely widespread and common.

I know from news reports and surveys that there are also people who were victimized as children by LGBT abusers, and that is just as horrendous, but I don't know personally anyone who had this happen to them. The people I know who were sexually abused are all women who were abused by straight men when they were girls.

I want an end to all this abuse - and as I said, I think the best way to avoid abuse is to educate children to recognize it and speak up when it happens. Everyone in kids' lives should be clear about this to them.

Ergo we should allow groomers to transition children as small as 4.

Like I said, keep your hands of the children.

I don't see how telling autistic boys and girls or gay or lesbian teens that they are trans is a solution to what you claim.

[GeekyBugle]

I'm still for gay marriage and adults being able to chop whatever part of their body and injecting hormones into their bodies.

But keep your filthy hands away of the children!

From my view, the vast majority of LGBT people I know all have stories of being bullied, threatened, and/or beaten up for acting queer when they were children. They were sometimes abused by their peers, thrown out by their parents, and ignored or worse by their teachers. This sort of abuse has been extremely widespread and common.

If teachers are part of the problem, they're not the types we should want instructing K-3 students about sex and orientation.

Even if one thinks they should be doing it at all, which I don't.

This, and also conflating the activists/"teachers" who pretend to speak for all GLBT people with the whole.

[jhkim]

My intent in bringing up Bambi is simply that I thought it was a well-known example of what's historically considered appropriate for kids. Obviously, it's not a K-3 school lesson, but to discuss, we need commonly-understood examples of what is appropriate.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to bring up actual examples instead of hypotheticals.

Has anything you've brought up in this thread been in the curriculum of K-3 classes?

I'm not an elementary school teacher, and it's been over 12 years since my son was in K-3, so it's difficult for me to come up with real examples of K-3 lessons on *any* topic. I do know Heather Has Two Mommies has been included in kindergarten lessons, while in other counties it was sued over being included in the school library at all. It was one of my first examples, but I feel like no one has engaged over it.

Citations needed as to why K-3 need explicit instruction in sex and gender at that age beyond basic language (which, I might add, woketards are shitting up anyways with their whines about 'gendered pronouns' and whatnot).

These aren't basic 'this is a boy and this is a girl' instruction, either. We've got teachers insisting it's their nonexistent-deity-granted right to bring drag queens in for storytime.

I haven't argued that it's necessary - but topics like coming-of-age, romance, courtship, marriage, and family are constantly referenced in literature, biographies, and social studies - and they have never been considered inappropriate or banned in the past. I mentioned how it is touched on in many stories that children read. I'd add it also comes up in social studies. For example, kids might read a story about some other culture - like a story of early Lakota life - and discuss how their coming-of-age and families were different.

As for drag queen story time - as far as I can see, the Florida law wouldn't make that illegal. The law only regulates the *topics* discussed. I don't see any restriction on who comes in to read or how they are dressed.

[Ratman_tf]

My intent in bringing up Bambi is simply that I thought it was a well-known example of what's historically considered appropriate for kids. Obviously, it's not a K-3 school lesson, but to discuss, we need commonly-understood examples of what is appropriate.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to bring up actual examples instead of hypotheticals.

Has anything you've brought up in this thread been in the curriculum of K-3 classes?

I'm not an elementary school teacher, and it's been over 12 years since my son was in K-3, so it's difficult for me to come up with real examples of K-3 lessons on *any* topic. I do know Heather Has Two Mommies has been included in kindergarten lessons, while in other counties it was sued over being included in the school library at all. It was one of my first examples, but I feel like no one has engaged over it.

I have not engaged over it, because I don't know what's in the book. I have heard of it, but I think just the title is intentionally provocative.
That makes it difficult to determine if it's "problematic" or not, or if the bill would apply to it or not.

[jhkim]

I have not engaged over it, because I don't know what's in the book. I have heard of it, but I think just the title is intentionally provocative.
That makes it difficult to determine if it's "problematic" or not, or if the bill would apply to it or not.

Below is the link I posted earlier. It requires free sign up to the Internet Archive, but they're not a corporation and I don't think they spam registration. (Also, the Internet Archive has a lot of other great material.)

https://archive.org/details/heatherhastwomom00newm/

The title is pretty descriptive. It's about a girl who has two mothers, and when she goes to school for the first time, she compares her family to the families of other kids - including those who live with their biological parents, and some whose parents are divorced or separated.

[jhkim]

From my view, the vast majority of LGBT people I know all have stories of being bullied, threatened, and/or beaten up for acting queer when they were children. They were sometimes abused by their peers, thrown out by their parents, and ignored or worse by their teachers. This sort of abuse has been extremely widespread and common.

I know from news reports and surveys that there are also people who were victimized as children by LGBT abusers, and that is just as horrendous, but I don't know personally anyone who had this happen to them. The people I know who were sexually abused are all women who were abused by straight men when they were girls.

I want an end to all this abuse - and as I said, I think the best way to avoid abuse is to educate children to recognize it and speak up when it happens. Everyone in kids' lives should be clear about this to them.

Bolding Mine.

*Raises hand*

Point of clarification here.

1) What do you mean by "acting queer"? Is there a set of behaviors which objectively define that the person exhibiting them are queer? Could you tell us what they are?

2) Are you saying that since you personally do not know of anyone abused by a GBLT that means that the abuse does not exist? Are you saying that since you only personally know women who were abused by straight white men that only straight white men can commit abuse?

Answering #2 first, I think that is addressed in the same sentence as you bolded - where I clearly state that I know it exists based on news reports and other narratives. There are abusers of all different sorts - men, women, white, black, gay, straight. I do not think that banning straight people is a useful step to ending abuse, nor do I think that banning gay people is a useful step to ending abuse. I think abuse should be addressed by targeting the *abuse* and *abusers*.

I believe the overwhelming majority of gay people as well as straight people are opposed to child abuse.

As for what "acting queer" means, I think the most common is not fitting gender stereotypes. For example, if a boy acts "girly", then he may be called a "fag" or "sissy" and bullied for that. This can be anything from having long hair to liking dolls. Is this really outside of your experience? It was extremely standard for me growing up.

[HappyDaze]

My intent in bringing up Bambi is simply that I thought it was a well-known example of what's historically considered appropriate for kids. Obviously, it's not a K-3 school lesson, but to discuss, we need commonly-understood examples of what is appropriate.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to bring up actual examples instead of hypotheticals.

Has anything you've brought up in this thread been in the curriculum of K-3 classes?

I'm not an elementary school teacher, and it's been over 12 years since my son was in K-3, so it's difficult for me to come up with real examples of K-3 lessons on *any* topic. I do know Heather Has Two Mommies has been included in kindergarten lessons, while in other counties it was sued over being included in the school library at all. It was one of my first examples, but I feel like no one has engaged over it.

I have not engaged over it, because I don't know what's in the book. I have heard of it, but I think just the title is intentionally provocative.
That makes it difficult to determine if it's "problematic" or not, or if the bill would apply to it or not.

OTOH, I'm sure a title like "Heather Has Two Daddies" could be all sorts of inappropriate for children too without any discussion of gay themes.

[Mistwell]

And fuck you and you're bullshit virtue signalling about how delightfully woke your family is. You know why? Because you are the same hypocritical twat who posted on Dellaforno's Facebook page to declare about how you posted here to troll us neanderthals in an effort to show much of a social justice warrior you were.

I'm not buying it. You perfectly understand what I'm saying. You just don't want to look at the reality of the situation because an honest appraisal of it will destroy your outlook on fighting for the cause using these tactics.

Fuck you, jeff. What I said to Dellaforno's friend is that we're a bunch of assholes here - which is exactly the same thing I say to your face. Most of us here will proudly admit to that. I didn't say anything on Facebook that I don't say here.

The only thing I said just now was that I had gay friends - so you're claiming that having gay friends is being "woke". But I know plenty of libertarian or even conservative folks who have gay friends, or are gay themselves. You can accuse me of being woke over other things, but being gay or having gay friends doesn't mean that someone is woke.

Bullshit.

My son learned about gender before he could speak, like all kids as far as I know. He knew that there was male and female, and had to learn appropriate pronouns as part of speaking. During the process of learning to speak, he also learned traditional classification of people as boys or girls, men or women, based on their appearance.

He was also exposed to stories of romantic love well before kindergarten - like in movies, picture books, and TV. We had brought him to two weddings I think before he was in 1st grade - his aunt's and a friend's. He was ringbearer for his aunt. So he knew about love, romance, and marriage. The friend's wedding was a same-sex wedding, so he knew that two women could get married (though it had no legal meaning at the time). After he got to elementary school, he made a friend whose parents were lesbians - so he also knew through that.

Is you using your son as a standard bearer to impress upon the reader how socially just your son has been raised by you. It is virtue signalling at its lowest and is woke as Hell.

Meanwhile, you're acting as if the Florida bill prevents explicit sex ed in grades K-3, but that's not what the bill does. It allows any degree of sex ed to kids, as long as it's hetero sex. What it does is ban any discussion of gayness. And my position is there's nothing inappropriate to kids in K-3 about stuff like marriage, parents, growing up, and similar.

Wow. It is like you have not bothered to read the Florida bill at all and are just making shit up. Why don't you try reading the bill?

Or, better yet, since you think that readers are stupid, show us the exact wording in the Florida bill where it only allows the teaching of hetero sex ed to kids grade K-3 and demands that people "don't say gay". Can you do that at least?

I keep seeing "You didn't read the bill" repeated by both sides here. So, here is the relevant text:

In its preamble, the bill's authors write that their aim is to prohibit "classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity."

Later, the bill states:

"Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

Hey look, it is the other flavor of jell-o!

Nowhere in your quotes, which don't link back to a verified representation of the bill, does it say "don't say gay". Your quotes appear to say that discussion of that subject matter of ANY orientation will not occur.

So thank you for supporting my argument.

Hey Jeff, believe it or not I was not posting to agree or disagree with anyone. If you think those are not the actual quotes from the bill then feel free to google them. All I was doing was trying to be helpful by posting the relevant sections people were discussing so everyone was on the same page for their discussion. The only "position" I've posted on this topic at all is I wish the authors of the bill had been more clear and used specific examples of behavior which is acceptable or not acceptable rather than leaving it to each district and each school to interpret those clauses for themselves, because I've repeatedly seen what poorly phrased vague bills do in the education system and all that does is waste everyone's time.

For instance, I wish the bill said something like, "if the topic of sexuality comes up in the classroom, teachers should refer students to discuss that matter with their parent or guardian rather than discussing it in class." or something like that. Let teachers and parents know what's expected concerning these matters.

Hey Mistwell, believe it or not, I think you are just trying to obfuscate the discussion because you post quotes but do not bother to post a link to where you got those quotes.

LOL I got them directly from the bill. I am not obfuscating anything. I didn't think you wanted to pour through walls of text but here you go. Knock yourself out. Also, you're welcome. Sorry your Google is broken:

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF