Quote from: FingerRod on October 29, 2022, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
I'm fine with good devils depending on the setting. for instance, a setting based around giant apartment mecha that are piloted by swarms of devils who fight against the infinite legions of heaven? good shit right there.

And I think that sounds truly retarded. And that is the great thing about opinions. Neither opinion negates the other. It is all subjective.

What is NOT subjective is D&D does not have mecha apartments. There is a rich history of devils and demons being absolutely evil in D&D.

They continue to make these bad design decisions because of their activism and lack of creative ability.

i think what they're trying to do is make DND more setting agnostic. I haven't read the article, however, so I don't know for sure- if it's for woke reasons then I hate it.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on October 29, 2022, 01:04:47 PM
So Demons and Devils are not really evil anymore? LOL

Cool. I want to play a character called Sir Geoffrey D'amor. He's not evil just misunderstood. Likes a bit of rape and decapitation on the side. His new alignment it chaotic good. As he just wants the heads as his friends.

Does he rape and decapitate Nazis? Full blown Nazis? SS uniform, armband, goose stepping, Holocaust supporting Nazis? If so he's more than Chaotic Good, he's Chaotic Ultragood.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 29, 2022, 05:00:28 PM
Meh. A lot of these changes are ridiculous, but the idea of fundamentally evil demons is largely a late development of Christianity. Demonic entities in other cultures and even other Abrahamic religions, like Islam, can be more morally ambiguous, with some being more troublesome or mischievous than outright evil, and others being potentially good or beneficial. In Islam, for example, "demons" are jinn who have chosen the path of evil, and Satan himself (called Iblis) is a jinn. In Hinduism asuras (which are regarded as demonic and in opposition to the angelic/godly Devas) can potentially become devas if they choose to redeem themselves. In eastern religions people can even reincarnate as demons if they lead a bad life, but eventually still achieve enlightenment through various lifetimes if they set on the right path.

So the main issue with these changes in D&D is that they're being implemented in a hamfisted and haphazard way, and apparently in the behest of a morally bankrupt ideology, more than the idea that the possibility of non-evil demons is such a ridiculous notion that it has never been considered by the majority of real life cultures and religions.

In orthodox Islam, demons are not Jinn. Jinn are a totally different type of spirit from angels or demons. Jinn have a soul, and thus free will, like humans do, so there can be Jinns who are Muslims, Jinn who are unbelievers, and Jinn who are worshipers of Shaitan. On the other hand, Angels and Demons have no free will.

In Hinduism, I can think of only one instance of an Asura that opposes his nature to try to be good, Prahlada, and in-legend this is because he heard the saint Narada praying while Prahlada was in his mother's womb.  This is meant to very much reflect the exception to the rule, rather than a general condition (similar in some ways to the legend of Merlin, being the son of the Devil, having been turned from evil to good by being baptized by Saint Blaise as soon as he is born).

The confusion in your statement might be because in the earlier Vedic texts the word "asura" is etymologically different from how it came to be used in Hinduism, but this is a change in the way the word was used; where in the earliest vedic texts "asura" meant a divine being in general, and there were other terms for good divine beings and evil divine beings. By the time of the Bhagavad Gita, the etymology had changed so that Deva referred to holy divine beings and Asura to unholy ones.
That said, Hindu belief in reincarnation does make it clear that someone can, by committing horrible sins, incarnate as an Asura, and (countless years later) be destroyed and potentially make their way back up the realms of being to become a human or even rise up to become a Deva. But during an individual lifetime, one is restricted by the qualities of the level to which they incarnate; just like someone who incarnates as a horse can't hope to learn algebra, an Asura generally cannot be holy.

The point is, every culture that ever existed had a fundamental mythology that taught that yes, there is Objective Good and Objective Evil. And had mythological creatures meant to represent those qualities. Only a society as degenerate and lost as our own can reach a point where it believes that good or evil are only a matter of feelings.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 08:35:49 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 29, 2022, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
I'm fine with good devils depending on the setting. for instance, a setting based around giant apartment mecha that are piloted by swarms of devils who fight against the infinite legions of heaven? good shit right there.

And I think that sounds truly retarded. And that is the great thing about opinions. Neither opinion negates the other. It is all subjective.

What is NOT subjective is D&D does not have mecha apartments. There is a rich history of devils and demons being absolutely evil in D&D.

They continue to make these bad design decisions because of their activism and lack of creative ability.

i think what they're trying to do is make DND more setting agnostic. I haven't read the article, however, so I don't know for sure- if it's for woke reasons then I hate it.

The excuse that the wokist at D&D are using is to make D&D setting agnostic.  In reality its a long standing leftist post modernist belief that there is no good or evil.  Everything is grey and whatever man wants it to be it is.  Meanwhile having a set alignment system that makes it exceedingly easy to role play a monster is inherently evil (ironic) to a leftist because it is reinforcing objective concepts of good and evil.  Having alignment in D&D teaching children the concept of right and wrong is a moral affront to the post-modernist moral degenerates.

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/intro_text/Chapter%208%20Ethics/PostModernism.htm

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 29, 2022, 09:13:43 AM
It's been explicitly stated now that in Nu-D&D, undead and demons can have any alignment.

uhhhh... Hate to break it to you. But that was a thing with 2e D&D and especially Planescape. Not often. But could happen. Evil Devas? yrp. They there.

ONEe looks to be more an "anything goes!" ideal without any thought put to it.

Or more aptly the wrong thought put to it.

WOTC and even some idiots here look at alighment of monsters as if it were set in stone and unchangable EVERRRRRRRRRRRR! Even when its ben shown that was not the case with older D&D. But you know. The "cause" has to lie and lie and lie because they hav no leg to stand on otherwise.

WOTC as usualy kowtows to those that bitch the loudest and closest to their own agenda.

Quote from: Omega on October 30, 2022, 03:07:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 29, 2022, 09:13:43 AM
It's been explicitly stated now that in Nu-D&D, undead and demons can have any alignment.

uhhhh... Hate to break it to you. But that was a thing with 2e D&D and especially Planescape. Not often. But could happen. Evil Devas? yrp. They there.

ONEe looks to be more an "anything goes!" ideal without any thought put to it.

Or more aptly the wrong thought put to it.

WOTC and even some idiots here look at alighment of monsters as if it were set in stone and unchangable EVERRRRRRRRRRRR! Even when its ben shown that was not the case with older D&D. But you know. The "cause" has to lie and lie and lie because they hav no leg to stand on otherwise.

WOTC as usualy kowtows to those that bitch the loudest and closest to their own agenda.

Everyone goes by the alignment of the monster manual, however there are exceptional individuals that don't match the alignment.  Its been that way since time immemorial.  What hasn't been a thing in D&D was to release a book about evil where none of the monsters have an alignment.  It's a pain in the ass to have to go and read a book on the monster as the leftards try to describe how the monster behaves without using words "evil", "slaver", "rape", "insane" and then use them in a campaign.  Just look at the raping of the description of the neogi.  WotC redacted 50% of that monster in their "revised" edition of Mord's.  You have no clue they are slavers, they are described as fucking vulcan's, god damn vulcans.  The Neogi's were one of the big bads of spelljammer.  Even mind flayers were allowed in towns, but neogi if you see them they are were the Mexican Narco gangs of Spelljammer.  But in Mord's the description suckkkkkssssskkkkss.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2022, 03:01:51 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 08:35:49 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 29, 2022, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
I'm fine with good devils depending on the setting. for instance, a setting based around giant apartment mecha that are piloted by swarms of devils who fight against the infinite legions of heaven? good shit right there.

And I think that sounds truly retarded. And that is the great thing about opinions. Neither opinion negates the other. It is all subjective.

What is NOT subjective is D&D does not have mecha apartments. There is a rich history of devils and demons being absolutely evil in D&D.

They continue to make these bad design decisions because of their activism and lack of creative ability.

i think what they're trying to do is make DND more setting agnostic. I haven't read the article, however, so I don't know for sure- if it's for woke reasons then I hate it.

The excuse that the wokist at D&D are using is to make D&D setting agnostic.  In reality its a long standing leftist post modernist belief that there is no good or evil.  Everything is grey and whatever man wants it to be it is.  Meanwhile having a set alignment system that makes it exceedingly easy to role play a monster is inherently evil (ironic) to a leftist because it is reinforcing objective concepts of good and evil.  Having alignment in D&D teaching children the concept of right and wrong is a moral affront to the post-modernist moral degenerates.

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/intro_text/Chapter%208%20Ethics/PostModernism.htm

I disagree that objective (as in independent of humans) morality exists. Reality? Yes. Morality? No. Whether objective morality exists IN A FICTIONAL WORLD depends on the setting's makers. If the creators of a particular setting says X is bad, then it is. If the creators of another setting say nothing is good or bad, then that is true. The creators of the setting are its Gods, they determine everything about it.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 30, 2022, 08:27:35 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2022, 03:01:51 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 08:35:49 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 29, 2022, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
I'm fine with good devils depending on the setting. for instance, a setting based around giant apartment mecha that are piloted by swarms of devils who fight against the infinite legions of heaven? good shit right there.

And I think that sounds truly retarded. And that is the great thing about opinions. Neither opinion negates the other. It is all subjective.

What is NOT subjective is D&D does not have mecha apartments. There is a rich history of devils and demons being absolutely evil in D&D.

They continue to make these bad design decisions because of their activism and lack of creative ability.

i think what they're trying to do is make DND more setting agnostic. I haven't read the article, however, so I don't know for sure- if it's for woke reasons then I hate it.

The excuse that the wokist at D&D are using is to make D&D setting agnostic.  In reality its a long standing leftist post modernist belief that there is no good or evil.  Everything is grey and whatever man wants it to be it is.  Meanwhile having a set alignment system that makes it exceedingly easy to role play a monster is inherently evil (ironic) to a leftist because it is reinforcing objective concepts of good and evil.  Having alignment in D&D teaching children the concept of right and wrong is a moral affront to the post-modernist moral degenerates.

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/intro_text/Chapter%208%20Ethics/PostModernism.htm

I disagree that objective (as in independent of humans) morality exists. Reality? Yes. Morality? No. Whether objective morality exists IN A FICTIONAL WORLD depends on the setting's makers. If the creators of a particular setting says X is bad, then it is. If the creators of another setting say nothing is good or bad, then that is true. The creators of the setting are its Gods, they determine everything about it.

I disagree on both counts. Morality in the real world is primarily in the form of cause and effect and if you are doing something which forces other people to act in self-defense against you. These are not intuitively obvious, and as the world becomes increasingly complex, more subtle interactions come into play. There are moral interactions which we don't understand, yet, just like we don't have a theory of Quantum Gravity. But fundamentally, morality is baked into the universe as deeply as mathematics and fictional universes with senses of morality which don't line up with the real universe will feel less like fictional worlds and more like acid trips.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 08:35:49 PM

i think what they're trying to do is make DND more setting agnostic. I haven't read the article, however, so I don't know for sure- if it's for woke reasons then I hate it.

You'd have to scrap the entire magic system to achieve that.

I disagree that objective (as in independent of humans) morality exists. [/quote]

There is an objective morality of good and evil in our world. Moral relativism is complete bullshit. Stop sitting on the fence and take a fucking side.

Let me give some examples of evil in the world:

6 million Jews murdered by the Germans in WWII.
approx 3 million Cambodians murdered by the Khmer Rouge.
Ed Gein
Charles Manson
Saddam Hussein

According to you moral relativistic view of things, NONE of those examples would be considered evil. Because all things are equal in moral relativism. No cop outs. No ifs, ands, or buts. A moral relativist would say the deaths of 6 million Jews by the Nazis was  "just a thing that happened in the war".

You need to check your moral compass, because it's broke.

Knowing the difference between good and evil is what keeps us from raping, murdering and stealing from each other.

But if you don't see the difference between giving orphan a home versus shooting him in the face, well...you need to unfuck yourself.

Subjective morality disproves itself in practice.
Because it lacks a basis to grant itself legitimacy outside of occasional utilitarianism (which either itself resorts to holy/unholy principles), its either subverted or ousted by philosophies that do.

In modern day most moral subjectivists coast on moral principles set by the past, and assume said principles are inherent to man without the need for principled grounding.

Tldr: killing demons is good.

I'll add my $0.02 about "Demons":

It's very much a specific mythological/theological background to treat all demons as inherently evil.  And the specific background that D&D has chosen to take is "all demons are evil".  It's loosely evolved from the Christian worldview of historic western civilization, but in pre-Christian western cultures, they weren't (see https://mythology.net/greek/greek-creatures/daemon/ for example--I think anyone who's studied Greek philosophers or Carl Jung know about "Daemons" as not wholly evil...and, despite Pathfinder, it's just a different spelling of the same term derived from the Greek.)  In Christian demonology, demons are generally viewed as angels who fell into sin, and thus are by definition going to be evil.

In Islam, there are Angels and there are Jinn--two different categories of being.  Angels are 100% good and have no free will...whereas Jinn are *not* analogs to the Christian idea of "Demon"--they've never been Angels, and evil if the most famous Jinn (Iblis/Shaytan) is wholly evil, the Quran does record Jinn who believed the message of Islam.

And really, when world-building, do what you want.  If you want all Demons to be evil, fine, do so...if you want them to be more complex characters, fine, do so.  It's really not that difficult...certainly not one of the things I would say is something inherently bad about D&D.

WOTC said what the decline was, and it was not D&D:

"Hasbro cites that much of the drop is due to sizable delays to their Magic: the Gathering releases. Delays and other "supply chain challenges" hit pretty hard. And alongside that, bigger releases "and entertainment content" are scheduled for the fourth quarter as opposed to the third quarter."  Apparently their video game also didn't do as well as expected. Not one word in their release even hints at a D&D decline.

Quote from: Fheredin on October 31, 2022, 09:34:26 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 30, 2022, 08:27:35 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2022, 03:01:51 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 08:35:49 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on October 29, 2022, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 29, 2022, 09:45:39 AM
I'm fine with good devils depending on the setting. for instance, a setting based around giant apartment mecha that are piloted by swarms of devils who fight against the infinite legions of heaven? good shit right there.

And I think that sounds truly retarded. And that is the great thing about opinions. Neither opinion negates the other. It is all subjective.

What is NOT subjective is D&D does not have mecha apartments. There is a rich history of devils and demons being absolutely evil in D&D.

They continue to make these bad design decisions because of their activism and lack of creative ability.

i think what they're trying to do is make DND more setting agnostic. I haven't read the article, however, so I don't know for sure- if it's for woke reasons then I hate it.

The excuse that the wokist at D&D are using is to make D&D setting agnostic.  In reality its a long standing leftist post modernist belief that there is no good or evil.  Everything is grey and whatever man wants it to be it is.  Meanwhile having a set alignment system that makes it exceedingly easy to role play a monster is inherently evil (ironic) to a leftist because it is reinforcing objective concepts of good and evil.  Having alignment in D&D teaching children the concept of right and wrong is a moral affront to the post-modernist moral degenerates.

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/intro_text/Chapter%208%20Ethics/PostModernism.htm

I disagree that objective (as in independent of humans) morality exists. Reality? Yes. Morality? No. Whether objective morality exists IN A FICTIONAL WORLD depends on the setting's makers. If the creators of a particular setting says X is bad, then it is. If the creators of another setting say nothing is good or bad, then that is true. The creators of the setting are its Gods, they determine everything about it.

I disagree on both counts. Morality in the real world is primarily in the form of cause and effect and if you are doing something which forces other people to act in self-defense against you. These are not intuitively obvious, and as the world becomes increasingly complex, more subtle interactions come into play. There are moral interactions which we don't understand, yet, just like we don't have a theory of Quantum Gravity. But fundamentally, morality is baked into the universe as deeply as mathematics and fictional universes with senses of morality which don't line up with the real universe will feel less like fictional worlds and more like acid trips.

Morality is not baked into the universe. Morality is a human construct. Without humans, there is no morality. Even with humans, what is 'good' and what is 'evil' is defined entirely by humans. In the case of a fictional world, the author can make up whatever morality they want. Sure, you can disagree. That doesn't make what they said false.

pundit, if this is off topic, tell me, I'll make several more posts responding to the other people. If it is then I'll move it to Discord.

Quote from: blackstone on October 31, 2022, 10:33:19 AM


I disagree that objective (as in independent of humans) morality exists.

There is an objective morality of good and evil in our world. Moral relativism is complete bullshit. Stop sitting on the fence and take a fucking side.

Let me give some examples of evil in the world:

6 million Jews murdered by the Germans in WWII.
approx 3 million Cambodians murdered by the Khmer Rouge.
Ed Gein
Charles Manson
Saddam Hussein

According to you moral relativistic view of things, NONE of those examples would be considered evil. Because all things are equal in moral relativism. No cop outs. No ifs, ands, or buts. A moral relativist would say the deaths of 6 million Jews by the Nazis was  "just a thing that happened in the war".

You need to check your moral compass, because it's broke.

Knowing the difference between good and evil is what keeps us from raping, murdering and stealing from each other.

But if you don't see the difference between giving orphan a home versus shooting him in the face, well...you need to unfuck yourself.
[/quote]

Those examples are evil because

1. The humans that said they are good are considered evil by many
2. The last time people did the first two, they were defeated.

In other words, everyone (or more people think they are evil than the ones who think they're good) thinks they are bad. Therefore they are. I myself hate the sorts of people who would do those things, so don't assume I support them.