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Author Topic: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke  (Read 7327 times)

FingerRod

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2022, 06:20:27 PM »
So if OneD&D makes enough changes to make 5e incompatible, that’s just par for the course with WotC… promise compatibility just long enough to keep the griping muted then “whoops, looks like all you old content won’t work with it after all. Guess you’ll just have to buy new versions of it if you want to use it with the newest system.”

It will be super interesting to see where it ends up. So far the playtest material is compatible.

Regardless of where it shakes out, I do not believe people will be sitting down for a OneD&D game five years from now sporting a 5e PHB. Even if it maintains compatibility. 

jhkim

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2022, 12:57:41 AM »
Having intrigue, politics, and non-combat challenges mixed into the fighting isn't out of character for D&D. It certainly isn't destroying it.

You're very good, you could write ad copy for Wizards, just the kind of thing they want: deceptive advertising that is not technically untrue, in that it is stuff in the book, but that implies that the book is a really traditional type of fantasy adventuring when in fact it's garbage deconstruction of the same, and is mostly concerned with anything but what normal gamers are looking for.

Thanks for the compliment of being good, I think.

Calling it "deconstruction" seems so vague and broad that I can't even tell how I'd evaluate that. I think if I ran any of the adventures for most of my past D&D gaming groups, they'd be fine with it. As GM, I'd prefer to rewrite 2-3 of the adventures, and I'd fully replace the framing context. But that's not different than how I'd adapt most other modules.

More specific characterizations in the OP video are more specific - that there wasn't any fighting of evil, say, when there are many enemies like murderous undead, demons, and so on. You also imply that skill challenges like an eating contest are the norm, when they are not. It is a humorous sidebar in the introductory adventure.

I don't have the Strixhaven book, so maybe that is close to what you're saying -- but based on what I have seen, I don't think your characterization of these books is accurate. I have a more detailed review of Radiant Citadel, which gives more details. I think it's fine to give a negative review, but you should be clear and specific in what you consider to be the problems of how it plays.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NE9f7P35te1m-t4lTGuBx6GPV2vPLUhnc1CMDtA_BVk/edit

RPGPundit

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2022, 09:13:43 AM »
It's been explicitly stated now that in Nu-D&D, undead and demons can have any alignment.

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Chris24601

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2022, 09:40:12 AM »
It's been explicitly stated now that in Nu-D&D, undead and demons can have any alignment.


Because to the woke antinomians, evil can be good, men can be women, children are adults, the obese can be healthy, war is peace, ignorance is knowledge and telling the truth is lies.

This is just the woke cancer metastasizing within D&D into the same sort of repulsive dreck that is driving the public away from all mainstream media.

MeganovaStella

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2022, 09:45:39 AM »
I'm fine with good devils depending on the setting. for instance, a setting based around giant apartment mecha that are piloted by swarms of devils who fight against the infinite legions of heaven? good shit right there.

FingerRod

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2022, 10:00:14 AM »
I'm fine with good devils depending on the setting. for instance, a setting based around giant apartment mecha that are piloted by swarms of devils who fight against the infinite legions of heaven? good shit right there.

And I think that sounds truly retarded. And that is the great thing about opinions. Neither opinion negates the other. It is all subjective.

What is NOT subjective is D&D does not have mecha apartments. There is a rich history of devils and demons being absolutely evil in D&D.

They continue to make these bad design decisions because of their activism and lack of creative ability.

jhkim

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2022, 10:48:02 AM »
I think if I ran any of the adventures for most of my past D&D gaming groups, they'd be fine with it. As GM, I'd prefer to rewrite 2-3 of the adventures, and I'd fully replace the framing context. But that's not different than how I'd adapt most other modules.

More specific characterizations in the OP video are more specific - that there wasn't any fighting of evil, say, when there are many enemies like murderous undead, demons, and so on. You also imply that skill challenges like an eating contest are the norm, when they are not. It is a humorous sidebar in the introductory adventure.

It's been explicitly stated now that in Nu-D&D, undead and demons can have any alignment.



I don't see how that changes anything about the characterization of Radiant Citadel. My current campaign and one-shots have all been in an Incan-inspired setting where the PCs work for the wise and good ancestor-king Pachacuti, who is a mummy. Just yesterday I re-ran a one-shot in this setting where the PCs got help from the spirits of ancient warriors in a dragon lord tomb. I can't think of any offhand, but I suspect there have already been good-aligned ghosts or revenants in previous D&D publications, like Hamlet's father seeking to avenge the wrongs done to them.

I haven't had demons of any sort in my game, but I don't see how having a character like Hellboy or Etrigan who fights for good is inherently opposed to what D&D adventures are about.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2022, 10:59:44 AM »
Except that we're not playing DC Heroes (and despite your hallucinations, Etrigan is NOT a good guy) or Hellboy.

We're fucking playing Dungeons and Dragons!

And for a lead designer to not just rename demons and devils but outright rewrite them because 'reasons'? Stupid.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2022, 01:04:47 PM »
So Demons and Devils are not really evil anymore? LOL

Cool. I want to play a character called Sir Geoffrey D'amor. He's not evil just misunderstood. Likes a bit of rape and decapitation on the side. His new alignment it chaotic good. As he just wants the heads as his friends.



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FingerRod

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2022, 04:18:56 PM »
What I don’t get is, why not just eliminate it altogether? What is the point of keeping it around?

VisionStorm

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2022, 05:00:28 PM »
Meh. A lot of these changes are ridiculous, but the idea of fundamentally evil demons is largely a late development of Christianity. Demonic entities in other cultures and even other Abrahamic religions, like Islam, can be more morally ambiguous, with some being more troublesome or mischievous than outright evil, and others being potentially good or beneficial. In Islam, for example, "demons" are jinn who have chosen the path of evil, and Satan himself (called Iblis) is a jinn. In Hinduism asuras (which are regarded as demonic and in opposition to the angelic/godly Devas) can potentially become devas if they choose to redeem themselves. In eastern religions people can even reincarnate as demons if they lead a bad life, but eventually still achieve enlightenment through various lifetimes if they set on the right path.

So the main issue with these changes in D&D is that they're being implemented in a hamfisted and haphazard way, and apparently in the behest of a morally bankrupt ideology, more than the idea that the possibility of non-evil demons is such a ridiculous notion that it has never been considered by the majority of real life cultures and religions.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 05:02:20 PM by VisionStorm »

Jaeger

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2022, 05:13:32 PM »
...
When you buy a product do you want to know what the political views of the maker are?
...

Hell no. Zero interest. I just want good games.

I would go one step further, and say that I don't even want any games that take an overt anti-woke stance. Because you do not need to.

Making a traditional RPG without woke nonsense in it makes you anti-woke by default.

Just make a good game and people will want to play it.


...
I believe it was mainly sold as a boxed set, if I remember correctly. I wonder if that is why they have smaller runs? Interesting observation though, I wonder what an eighth print run two months after release could mean.

I do remember reviews being luke warm. ...

Hard money on smaller print runs. It didn't receive the usual gushing KYTube praise, and even on pro-5e fora the reception has been a resounding 'meh...'.

Naturally I don't expect WotC to release actual sales numbers anytime soon.


...
True though it is not just a steady decline. The show had a slow decline from the Tennant era, that got a little faster in the Capaldi years, and then fell off a cliff in the current year doctor. Doctor who was always liberal, in the classical sense, but the moment it crashed into the abyss was when it went Full Woke.

Absolutely.  It's all a slow turning up the dial until they feel that they are in a position to go all-in full retard. Marvel/DC comics took a similar amount of time to crash and burn, but you only saw the really crazy stuff right before they hit rock bottom.

D&D's decline will be interesting to observe, as so far they are going for a firm woke representation online marketing strategy, with soft inclusions in the actual product. But even in their physical product they are starting to race and gender swap with increasing frequency - slowly turning up the dial to see what they can get away with.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 05:45:51 PM by Jaeger »
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Jaeger

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2022, 05:22:38 PM »
...
So the main issue with these changes in D&D is that they're being implemented in a hamfisted and haphazard way, and apparently in the behest of a morally bankrupt ideology, more than the idea that the possibility of non-evil demons is such a ridiculous notion that it has never been considered by the majority of real life cultures and religions.

Well there is the fact that D&D was and is sold to a primarily western English speaking audience. Which has been culturally shaped by 2000 years of Christian morality, religious thought, and philosophy.

So to D&D's primary sales demographic; Yes, the idea of non-evil demons is a completely ridiculous notion based on post-modern retardery.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 05:24:17 PM by Jaeger »
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oggsmash

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2022, 05:46:36 PM »
  Demons and Devils being any alignment is fucktarded.  I have no issue with an extremely rare exception straying from the usual routine of torture sodomy and forcing the damned to eat feces and such, but that means neutral in a 1 in a 100 million case, not anyone just be any alignment.  I agree many cultures have the idea of troublesome spirits being demons, but that is not the point of view of western culture influenced by Christianity....which is what the creator of the game and the culture it is marketed to have as a vision of what a demon/devil is...evil incarnate. 

    I am not bothered by such a dumb thing though, I do not buy or play dungeons and dragons.  I do not think wizards is headed for broke either, not for a very, very long time.  They have big, big money sunk into them and that sort of money can live with a dip in profits for a while for the sake of social engineering if needed.   I do think they will lose fans/players over time, but they are a massive operation that knows how to market and they will find players.   Their biggest issue is going to be when you hire based on idiot criteria (race/sexuality/etc) instead of talent and creativity you eventually get shit for product across the board.   That time will come given their direction but it will not be for a while as momentum will carry them a very long ways first.   There is also a point where the bean counters talk to the higher ups and social engineering gets dumped to make money, so there might be a course correction in their direction as well.

   All that said, if they do better, worse, cease to exist, become something everyone plays it does not matter to me, I am done with em.

Valatar

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Re: Woke D&D Is Starting to Go Broke
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2022, 07:44:13 PM »
Yeah, older D&D editions had non-evil undead, archliches and some mummies coming to mind, but outsiders are specifically part of an alignment's plane of existence.  If a soul had the capacity for good, it wouldn't have become a Glabrezu or whatever in the first place.

This is not to say, however, that there's no room for interpretation.  Aside from the modrons, outsiders aren't automotons, after all.  A tanar'ri could be the party's cool bro, if their interests aligned, and a solar could be a priggish asshole to them if they were at odds.  Just because the tanar'ri isn't eating babies at that exact moment and can be reasoned with doesn't mean it's not an evil creature that likes eating babies.