So, i've been quite some years into the RPG "scene" and i've never quite understood why there's such a hype with retro-clone or even "oldschool" games at all.

What "makes" the "Oldschool" oldschool, and why should one play a retro-clone that is... outdated, antiquated and somewhat overcome from a design-related point of view?


To be even more provocative:
Why should i play a dungeoncrawl system modeled after oD&D/AD&D/what have you, if i already hated brainless and boring dungeoncrawling with a crude arcane system that people seemed to play only because of nostalgic reasons, having to use loads of houserules to get something playable?


To me, the OSR is the Forge's even more evil twin, because instead of trying to achieve a system that's a modern era of roleplay it regresses RPG as a hobby itself.
 
I just don't get it why one shouldn't pick the best new ideas and merge them with good ideas from the past to create a nice system that's "stable" and "traditional" yet not as dusty and antiquated like S&W or Lab Lord or all the many clones out there.

Quote from: Phantom Black;368999why should one play a retro-clone that is... outdated, antiquated and somewhat overcome from a design-related point of view?

There's the crux of the matter right there.  If you think these games are outdated there's no reason for you to play them.  Personally, I feel like there's still approximately one bajillion tons of fun that can still be squeezed out of many games that other people (especially folks selling new editions and new games) consider antiquated.

Google Translate and Random Flamewar Generator does not Thoughtful OPs make.

@others: unless I'm mistaken, this poster's standard nickname is "Heretic". He's been a dick over a half dozen of German RPG fora by crying  "why do you play system X and not SAVAGE WORLDS!!!?!!!11!!!" every so often. And oh, he has never looked at a single OSR game, let alone played one, and hates dungeon crawls with a passion ever since he reviewed a single DCC module in 2008. That's right. A one trick pony who recirculates his angry reaction to that module, by extenuation: your world!!, by taking it out on every forum in turn. I guess it's sorta therapeutic for him.

So by a singular stroke of luck, TheRPGSite is the forum-of-the-month for his shtick.

Generally speaking, the OSR don't think that all change is progress, and that what has been done since year X - the exact year varies - in game design has moved away from what made roleplaying games awesome in the first place. By getting back to the source, one refreshes one's understanding of what gaming should be. Some see this as a touchstone to make real progress. Some don't need your steenkin' progress anyway. They were happy in Year X, and if they just go back to that, they will be happy again. Some just lost where they were going and need to go back to the last known position. There are a multitude of variations. I'm not an OSR guy, but they are pretty straight forward about what they are looking for. It's just that there are really several OSRs which share some commonalities, but which are going in different directions.

-clash

Quote from: Phantom Black;368999I just don't get it why one shouldn't pick the best new ideas and merge them with good ideas from the past to create a nice system that's "stable" and "traditional" yet not as dusty and antiquated like S&W or Lab Lord or all the many clones out there.

Because once again, for everyone tuning in late, game systems are not software, and "the best new ideas" are more subjective than one's taste in women/men.

Ahh, Heretic, that figures.

Quote from: Windjammer;369002Google Translate and Random Flamewar Generator does not Thoughtful OPs make.

@others: unless I'm mistaken, this poster's standard nickname is "Heretic". He's been a dick over a half dozen of German RPG fora by crying  "why do you play system X and not SAVAGE WORLDS!!!?!!!11!!!" every so often. And oh, he has never looked at a single OSR game, let alone played one, and hates dungeon crawls with a passion ever since he reviewed a single DCC module in 2008. That's right. A one trick pony who recirculates his angry reaction to that module, by extenuation: your world!!, by taking it out on every forum in turn. I guess it's sorta therapeutic for him.

So by a singular stroke of luck, TheRPGSite is the forum-of-the-month for his shtick.

Sorry, Sir, i actually have read S&W (The edition with the throne scene on the cover and the shorter White Box Edition), Lab Lord and i've read into OSRIC as well.

Oh, and this thread is just about me not getting all the buzz about this "OSR", that's all, this thread is NOT about propagating ANY system, so don't give me that crap, ok?

@Windjammer: I thought you'd figure that out sooner. But i guess my assumptions were right. Anyways, have further fun wasting an hour to take 3-4 turns!

Quote from: Windjammer;369002@others: unless I'm mistaken, this poster's standard nickname is "Heretic". He's been a dick over a half dozen of German RPG fora by crying  "why do you play system X and not SAVAGE WORLDS!!!?!!!11!!!" every so often.

Ah. Thank you for the info, Windjammer.

Quote from: Melan;369012Ah. Thank you for the info, Windjammer.

Well, to be honest, i do had my flamewars, though i am able to have serious discussions.

At least in some English boards, like this one.

@flyingmice: Yeah, i can understand that, but why are "they" trying to "evangelize" the whole RPG scene and downrating all else? Whenever someone asks here for some system, the first replies are always retro-clone-related answers, although in quite some cases it won't fit the OP's needs at all! That's what i don't get.
I mean, ok, i'm a Savage Worlds fan, but at most i don't try to shove my system-related preferences down all your throats.
SW is far from being perfect, and it does not satisfy some styles of play, so why would i advise it someone who wants a rules-heavy game that's more about narrating and less action-oriented?

I don't really know about the OSR (other than as a wide movement that has some cool people, and apparently some borderline personality ex-gamers sort of lurking at the fringes), but earlier editions of D&D definitely have their own unique appeal. Re-experiencing that on it's own merits is a very cool goal.

Start with:

A bunch of people get together to play and appreciate a game (no matter what game) on it's own merits, that's very cool. Creating new things is amazing! RE-discovering the things that were created and forgotten is like finding buried treasure in this case. The people that have created amazing campaigns and still play them.. also wonderful. When 100 flowers of creativity bloom, we are all enriched by the garden. Right? Of course. And talking about it, sharing it.. is very cool.

But then you add on:

A bunch of people get together and use their affiliation with gaming as a conservative appeal to "tradition", to the faceless authority of "how it's supposed to be", to resentment or anger directed towards younger players, new faces, companies that seem to be doing well.. lamentations to "these kids today".. weeping for a loss of identity;desperately choosing judgmental ignorance over dealing with the reality of how things are.

Couple that with:

Some people haven't actually gamed in months or years, but see themselves as elite, because they may have actually been sort of involved with gaming (or online gaming fandom) in previous years (or even decades). So some of them are attracted to the most negative subcommunities by instinct; it's what they know.  

Multiply it by:

There are also a lot of collectors out there. Many of these games are precious artifacts of our youth. There's no denying this. Collectors aren't bad people. But their insight into gaming (and especially as "critics") is limited. They don't know because they don't know.


And the result is this:

Gamers can be both startlingly creative and talented people.. and totally fucking obtuse dickheads who are unable to think outside of their own self-imposed blinders.  

So why OSR? Well, that first thing about creativity and finding buried treasure is pretty great, and they aren't actually responsible for the bedbugs that naturally want to attach themselves to their movement. But it should be more about creativity and fun than politics and identity.

Shouldn't it?

Quote from: flyingmice;369003By getting back to the source, one refreshes one's understanding of what gaming should be.

This, although I don't know about "refreshes". Even though I grew up with AD&D I never had a good understanding of what it was designed to do well and how I could get the most out of it. Thanks to the discussion and resources of the OSR, I currently enjoy playing old-school D&D much more than I did back in the day. (Experience with many other game systems, and twenty years' worth of maturity and personal growth, must also get some of the credit.)

I think the OSR is useful as a movement for the same reason that genre is useful for a reader: if you like one book with a rocketship on the cover, having a label can be a good guide to where to go if you want to delve deeper into more stuff like that.

IMO the body of work associated with the OSR is worth checking out (and experiencing for yourself through actual play with a group open to the experience) even if you don't plan to make a habit of playing older games. I feel like the recent games of 4E and Rogue Trader I've run have been much more successful because of my immersion in the roots of gaming, and discovering that I really, really love the original D&D I never played as a kid doesn't stop me from being interested in new stuff as well.

Quote from: Phantom Black;369013@flyingmice: Yeah, i can understand that, but why are "they" trying to "evangelize" the whole RPG scene and downrating all else? Whenever someone asks here for some system, the first replies are always retro-clone-related answers, although in quite some cases it won't fit the OP's needs at all! That's what i don't get.
I mean, ok, i'm a Savage Worlds fan, but at most i don't try to shove my system-related preferences down all your throats.
SW is far from being perfect, and it does not satisfy some styles of play, so why would i advise it someone who wants a rules-heavy game that's more about narrating and less action-oriented?

Well, maybe you didn't notice, but this board has a lot of OSR peeps. Like the Exalted heads on tBP, or the Wushu-clan, it's the first thing they think of because it scratches their itch. I don't blame them, really. It's all exciting and does all these things they've been missing. It's a phase of Getting Religion that a lot of gamers go through when they can finally scratch an itch they've had for a long time.

It's really perfectly normal to assume personal values are universal. My sister calls to tell me how awesome her new car is for her, and that I should get one. My co-worker patiently explains to me how his insurance is so good, and I really should ditch whatever I am currently using. Not all OSR guys are like this, any more than all Savage World guys think it's perfect for everything, but since there are proportionally more OSR guys here than other general fora, it just seems that way.

Then again, it takes a lot to get me angry. Your mileage may vary.

-clash

Quote from: Tavis;369020This, although I don't know about "refreshes". Even though I grew up with AD&D I never had a good understanding of what it was designed to do well and how I could get the most out of it. Thanks to the discussion and resources of the OSR, I currently enjoy playing old-school D&D much more than I did back in the day. (Experience with many other game systems, and twenty years' worth of maturity and personal growth, must also get some of the credit.)

I think the OSR is useful as a movement for the same reason that genre is useful for a reader: if you like one book with a rocketship on the cover, having a label can be a good guide to where to go if you want to delve deeper into more stuff like that.

IMO the body of work associated with the OSR is worth checking out (and experiencing for yourself through actual play with a group open to the experience) even if you don't plan to make a habit of playing older games. I feel like the recent games of 4E and Rogue Trader I've run have been much more successful because of my immersion in the roots of gaming, and discovering that I really, really love the original D&D I never played as a kid doesn't stop me from being interested in new stuff as well.

Awesome for you, Tavis! This, to me, is the best part of the OSR. I did the OSR thing back when it was the New Thing, so maybe my perspective is a tad different...

-clash

Yes, truly, good post.

Maybe i should've been clearer on my point, sorry.

I acually do like some of the "OSR" systems, but i just don't get this evangelizing thing, but anyways, i also don't get it with the Savage Worlds/D&D 4E/Forge&Indy crowd, but admittedly i am/have been an "obtuse dickhead" (about the systems i play) myself at times.

Like... i dislike 4E today, but not because of the system itself (Heck, i do love Star Wars Saga Edition.) but for the paradigm shift and setting-gap it created, especially regarding Forgotten Realms.

True, change does not necessarily mean progress, but why not combine good new ideas with good old ideas?

The "issue" i see with the OSR:
It seems to me, that the good ideas from the OSR stay with the OSR and that they don't seem to be open to new ideas from "outside" which might be combined and integrated with the OSR games themself to get a game even more people would like to play.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;369018I don't really know about the OSR (other than as a wide movement that has some cool people, and apparently some borderline personality ex-gamers sort of lurking at the fringes)

I is discriditing ur gamerz!  LOL!

QuoteGamers can be both startlingly creative and talented people.. and totally fucking obtuse dickheads who are unable to think outside of their own self-imposed blinders.  

So why OSR? Well, that first thing about creativity and finding buried treasure is pretty great, and they aren't actually responsible for the bedbugs that naturally want to attach themselves to their movement. But it should be more about creativity and fun than politics and identity.

Shouldn't it?

I was going to get worked up and start in on this, but then I realized:

You are a sad, sad person.  

I feel bad about winding you up these past several months now, so accept my apologies and my hope that you find some help.