Quote from: Balbinus;369741But Talmudic disputation?  I enjoy that.  

I don't.
Niggling over little minutiae and technicisms, debating about "purity" and "Heresy" from the tiniest of deviation-points, and striving to find/invent the "perfect" metaphysical system that can intellectually explain everything is utterly stupid and missing the point in religion, and it certainly misses the point in Gaming.
And this concept coming up in the thread certainly helped me conceptualize one of the things I hate about some of the OSR:  They are Pharisees (not in the "hypocrite" sense that word is used sometimes in English, but in the sense of people who put the details of the law above both the human element and what is practical or good).

Or to put it another way, they're the wrong kind of conservatives. J Arcane got it right: they're the Teabagger movement of the Roleplaying World. A thinking conservative is someone who wants to preserve what is good, and stand true to a set of principles they believe to be universal, without fearing what is innovative, if it is practical, in new and better ways to apply those principles.  An idiotic conservative is someone who has a series of talking points and dogmas, and sticks to those hell-bent, standing athwart to all reality.  They don't have principles, they have commandments, which you cannot innovate because what they cling to is the very aesthetic of the concept and not just its significance; so you see them clinging to stupid utterly outdated ideas and elements, often completely counter-productive ones, just because "that's how it was done".
Too often, the OSR-ites are more of the latter and less of the former.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;369708It's actually just contempt for the worthless. I mean, to be accurate and all.

Hmm. I'm not helping, probably.

You know, its pretty hard for you to claim victim status if you goad people along.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;369828You know, its pretty hard for you to claim victim status if you goad people along.

RPGPundit

But it is pretty easy to cite Skarka's Law with such clear examples.

Quote from: RPGPundit;369826I don't.

Indeed, I don't associate you with arguments about gaming purity at all.

Obviously if you take it seriously there's a problem, but arguing in a friendly fashion about angels on pinheads is just that, friendly.  If you get excited about it, go roll some dice instead.

Quote from: jrients;369684I agree.  But sometimes I feel like talking about that sort of thing even though it's about a zillion times less important than a player showing on game night and saying "I want to play a lich" or "who do I have to kill to get more spells?"  Like today I posted some crap about the rules for Chainmail that's pretty inconsequential even though I had a great Mutant Future session last night I could be reporting on.

Of course, from time to time it may be a great topic. As the center of your discourse, not so much. That's why I dig your blog.

Quote from: RPGPundit;369826And this concept coming up in the thread certainly helped me conceptualize one of the things I hate about some of the OSR:  They are Pharisees (not in the "hypocrite" sense that word is used sometimes in English, but in the sense of people who put the details of the law above both the human element and what is practical or good).

Well, I certainly agree on this with you, Pundit.

Actually, after Gygax and Arneson's death, the religious component has become more pronounced. And now, the Prophets are not there to dispute their disciple's interpretations, so we can have all kind of nice heresies, religion wars and other forms of retarded behaviour associated with thatkind of feeble mindedness.

Quote from: Imperator;369881Actually, after Gygax and Arneson's death, the religious component has become more pronounced. And now, the Prophets are not there to dispute their disciple's interpretations, so we can have all kind of nice heresies, religion wars and other forms of retarded behaviour associated with thatkind of feeble mindedness.

Again: who the fuck are you talking about?

Quote from: RPGPundit;369826I don't.
Niggling over little minutiae and technicisms, debating about "purity" and "Heresy" from the tiniest of deviation-points, and striving to find/invent the "perfect" metaphysical system that can intellectually explain everything is utterly stupid and missing the point in religion, and it certainly misses the point in Gaming.
And this concept coming up in the thread certainly helped me conceptualize one of the things I hate about some of the OSR:  They are Pharisees (not in the "hypocrite" sense that word is used sometimes in English, but in the sense of people who put the details of the law above both the human element and what is practical or good).

Or to put it another way, they're the wrong kind of conservatives. J Arcane got it right: they're the Teabagger movement of the Roleplaying World. A thinking conservative is someone who wants to preserve what is good, and stand true to a set of principles they believe to be universal, without fearing what is innovative, if it is practical, in new and better ways to apply those principles.  An idiotic conservative is someone who has a series of talking points and dogmas, and sticks to those hell-bent, standing athwart to all reality.  They don't have principles, they have commandments, which you cannot innovate because what they cling to is the very aesthetic of the concept and not just its significance; so you see them clinging to stupid utterly outdated ideas and elements, often completely counter-productive ones, just because "that's how it was done".
Too often, the OSR-ites are more of the latter and less of the former.

RPGPundit

Agreed.  But these folks were around before the OSR.  The OSR just gave them a tag to hang their BS on.  I'm not sure of the ratio of asshats to reasonable people in the OSR, but it doesn't take many to turn off those who are new to the hobby.  In general, if I try to sell someone on old school gaming I tell them up front that much of what they find on the internet is not representative of what it can really be about, or the best of what it was about back in the day.

Quote from: Benoist;369891Again: who the fuck are you talking about?

Just thinking out loud, not adressing anyone in particular.

Quote from: xANTHER

Quote from: Originally Posted by RPGPunditI don't.
Niggling over little minutiae and technicisms, debating about "purity" and "Heresy" from the tiniest of deviation-points, and striving to find/invent the "perfect" metaphysical system that can intellectually explain everything is utterly stupid and missing the point in religion, and it certainly misses the point in Gaming.
And this concept coming up in the thread certainly helped me conceptualize one of the things I hate about some of the OSR: They are Pharisees (not in the "hypocrite" sense that word is used sometimes in English, but in the sense of people who put the details of the law above both the human element and what is practical or good).

Or to put it another way, they're the wrong kind of conservatives. J Arcane got it right: they're the Teabagger movement of the Roleplaying World. A thinking conservative is someone who wants to preserve what is good, and stand true to a set of principles they believe to be universal, without fearing what is innovative, if it is practical, in new and better ways to apply those principles. An idiotic conservative is someone who has a series of talking points and dogmas, and sticks to those hell-bent, standing athwart to all reality. They don't have principles, they have commandments, which you cannot innovate because what they cling to is the very aesthetic of the concept and not just its significance; so you see them clinging to stupid utterly outdated ideas and elements, often completely counter-productive ones, just because "that's how it was done".
Too often, the OSR-ites are more of the latter and less of the former.

RPGPundit

Agreed. But these folks were around before the OSR. The OSR just gave them a tag to hang their BS on. I'm not sure of the ratio of asshats to reasonable people in the OSR, but it doesn't take many to turn off those who are new to the hobby. In general, if I try to sell someone on old school gaming I tell them up front that much of what they find on the internet is not representative of what it can really be about, or the best of what it was about back in the day.

Those folk are also in every game today, just that due to the closeness to the Genesis of the hobby, there are a few idiots out there who read that as more important that it should be.  I think of most OSR people (Xanther included) as 'Game-over-Dogma' type, with the word 'most' emphasized.

Yes, and there were pretentious gamers around long before the Forge.

The point is that a movement can do things to encourage or discourage that kind of mentality, it can veer more toward becoming the haven of this type of reactionaries, or it can veer more toward innovation.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Phantom Black;368999So, i've been quite some years into the RPG "scene" and i've never quite understood why there's such a hype with retro-clone or even "oldschool" games at all.

What "makes" the "Oldschool" oldschool, and why should one play a retro-clone that is... outdated, antiquated and somewhat overcome from a design-related point of view?


To be even more provocative:
Why should i play a dungeoncrawl system modeled after oD&D/AD&D/what have you, if i already hated brainless and boring dungeoncrawling with a crude arcane system that people seemed to play only because of nostalgic reasons, having to use loads of houserules to get something playable?


To me, the OSR is the Forge's even more evil twin, because instead of trying to achieve a system that's a modern era of roleplay it regresses RPG as a hobby itself.
 
I just don't get it why one shouldn't pick the best new ideas and merge them with good ideas from the past to create a nice system that's "stable" and "traditional" yet not as dusty and antiquated like S&W or Lab Lord or all the many clones out there.

My personal opinion is OSR is a backlash against things like the forge, and the present culture of gaming.

I would say, if it doesn't appeal to you, don't play OSR games. If it does appeal, then participate.

I got into gaming in the late 80s, and admit I get nostalgic about AD&D 1e and 2e, and the other games out at the time. Every once in a while, I like to break out an old style dungeon crawl and play it. But I also like a lot of the newer games out there as well. My attitude is, expose yourself to different games and styles and see what you like. After all, your not joining a political movement or religion here. It is just about trying different flavors. I just don't buy into the concept that there is a right or a wrong way to game, GM, structure adventures, etc. I would rather see all the different things people are doing and take what I think works with my own group.

I would add that in general, I think it is a good thing to try out gaming stuff you at first might not be interested in. I used to be a strict fantasy RPG guy. Then I was a strict Ravenloft and Dark Fantasy RPG guy. I wouldn't touch modern with a 10 foot pole. But after trying some modern games (I think Cthulu was my first modern or near modern setting) I discovered I liked it better than fantasy.

Quote from: RPGPundit;370075Yes, and there were pretentious gamers around long before the Forge.

The point is that a movement can do things to encourage or discourage that kind of mentality, it can veer more toward becoming the haven of this type of reactionaries, or it can veer more toward innovation.

RPGPundit

And I would assume it would fall with those of us with mouths to speak (or pens to write) to add our voices to the growing cacophony?  

Maybe I understand your overarching viewpoint slightly better.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;370087My personal opinion is OSR is a backlash against things like the forge, and the present culture of gaming.

I would say, if it doesn't appeal to you, don't play OSR games. If it does appeal, then participate.

I got into gaming in the late 80s, and admit I get nostalgic about AD&D 1e and 2e, and the other games out at the time. Every once in a while, I like to break out an old style dungeon crawl and play it. But I also like a lot of the newer games out there as well. My attitude is, expose yourself to different games and styles and see what you like. After all, your not joining a political movement or religion here. It is just about trying different flavors. I just don't buy into the concept that there is a right or a wrong way to game, GM, structure adventures, etc. I would rather see all the different things people are doing and take what I think works with my own group.

I would add that in general, I think it is a good thing to try out gaming stuff you at first might not be interested in. I used to be a strict fantasy RPG guy. Then I was a strict Ravenloft and Dark Fantasy RPG guy. I wouldn't touch modern with a 10 foot pole. But after trying some modern games (I think Cthulu was my first modern or near modern setting) I discovered I liked it better than fantasy.

True that. Well said.

Quote from: RPGPundit;369826...Too often, the OSR-ites are more of the latter and less of the former...

:confused:

Any specific examples in mind?

Quote from: Akrasia;370479:confused:

Any specific examples in mind?

You must be new here.