Quote from: jan paparazzi;848829I think the WoD wasn't a succes because of the Metaplot. I think it was a succes because it was different. You won't find a Ventrue clan in another game. Plus the focus on intrigue and investigation made it a different rpg than most combat focused fantasy rpg's.

It was a success in great part because of its pretentiousness and claims of being superior to regular RPGs. People who felt contempt for RPGs could play it and convince themselves they were above it all.

White Wolf was a success because...

1)  V:TM did a very clever job of taking the entire body of vampire fiction and boiling it into a single cohesive setting. The clans each represented a pop archetype and were easy for new players to grasp (Player 1: "I wanna be like those vampires in Lost Boys!" ST: "Brujah" Player 2: "Dark Shadows!" ST: "Ventrue."). Later, Vampire: The Requiem would completely screw the pooch on this, with a weird mix of clans with gibberish names and muddled archetypes.

2) It filled a void. Back when I used to run Call of Cthulhu as a teen in the eighties players were always asking me if they could play vampires (Being an arrogant little snob, I never let them). The Anne Rice novels and Saberhagen's The Holmes-Dracula File were cult classics in geek culture at the time (I remember local RPGers having their PC's meet the Saberhagen Dracula in their super-hero and space-opera games. A few veteran PCs even got retired by having SaberDrac turn then into vampires).

3) The system was relatively simple and easy for new players to grasp.

4) It was written and illustrated with relative "Taste". It didn't look like a comic book. In the nerdscape of the late 80's/very early 90's this was quite novel and a big deal. Back when "Geek shit" still had a real stigma to it the sparse cover of the single rose on green marble intrigued people (For good or ill) who would never have touched a D&D or Traveller book in a million years.

Later WW products would completely abandon this approach and a few would even make Nightlife look subtle in comparison.

5) Most RPGs of the time seemed like they were about 2/3rds rules and 1/3rd  fluff and GM's advice. V:TM reversed this. Just looking through that 1991 edition for the very first time you knew this game had a very different approach and was going to make a splash (Although I had absolutely no idea whatsoever at just how big it would eventually get).

6) Let's be honest: Most players (In my experience, anyway) just ran V:TM as  a dumb gang-war game with vampires fighting in the street with katanas and HK MP-3s. Their games of V:TM were no smarter, sophisticated, or less violent than than a typical AD&D2 dungeon-crawl*. However... the game as written had a emphasis on drama, politics, atmosphere, and social conflict that was novel for the time and attracted a new audience, particularly women. Even if only 10% of those who ran the game did it "Right"**, that was enough. It seemed at the time, in my particular neck of the woods, that that one single game increased the number of women in role-playing by 50% virtually overnight.


*This is in no way a bash against dumb, violent, or goofball-fun games. Games are supposed to be fun and fun is fun. Remember, I'm the guy who loves Nightlife and has found good things to say about The Streetfighter Storytelling Game. I absolutely despise "You are having Badwrongfun" culture.

** See first footnote.

Quote from: RPGPundit;849455It was a success in great part because of its pretentiousness and claims of being superior to regular RPGs. People who felt contempt for RPGs could play it and convince themselves they were above it all.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;8494754) It was written and illustrated with relative "Taste". It didn't look like a comic book. In the nerdscape of the late 80's/very early 90's this was quite novel and a big deal. Back when "Geek shit" still had a real stigma to it the sparse cover of the single rose on green marble intrigued people (For good or ill) who would never have touched a D&D or Traveller book in a million years.

Two ways of looking at the same elements I think. Vampire did present itself and came off as a bit more 'mature'... sitting there on the shelf next to images of half-naked men and women with huge implements of destruction.
In action the thespian goths LARPing in the cafes came off just as dorky as any other game nerd.

Quote from: RPGPundit;849455It was a success in great part because of its pretentiousness and claims of being superior to regular RPGs. People who felt contempt for RPGs could play it and convince themselves they were above it all.

I really doubt that was a great part of its success. The largest part of it was just catching the Zeitgeist of the 90s, when angst and edgy anti-heroes became the height of pop culture, and the aesthetics and themes of WoD managed to appeal to a geek subculture that was an otherwise untapped market by RPGs. The books were visually appealing, cleanly designed and laid-out, and the splats-as-adolescent-cliques was a brilliant draw.

I still think it's weird that people like movies and books and things about being monsters but the only hot game in town is still White Wolf (or onyx path or whatever). Yes I know there are a handful of people out there who still play Unisystem Witchcraft, and I know there are some indie games, but it's still weird. Given how popular it is there should be a few more big, active things going on with it - active competing systems and settings. It's weird that it's not.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;849581I still think it's weird that people like movies and books and things about being monsters but the only hot game in town is still White Wolf (or onyx path or whatever). Yes I know there are a handful of people out there who still play Unisystem Witchcraft, and I know there are some indie games, but it's still weird. Given how popular it is there should be a few more big, active things going on with it - active competing systems and settings. It's weird that it's not.

To be fair, Dungeons and Dragons didn't really have any real competition in the Fantasy Game market until Pathfinder...and the only reason Pathfinder did so well is because it was OGL.

Sure, some people play Earthdawn, or Palladium Fantasy, or Runequest, but none of them have the popularity that Dungeons and Dragons does.

I would like to see a well supported, well written competitor to Onyx Path, just to get a different take on things...but our industry is so small as it is, we're more likely just to continue to see independent offerings here and there like Witchcraft...

And unless one of them catches lightning in a bottle like Vampire again, it's most likely not going to reach the same level of market penetration.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;849581I still think it's weird that people like movies and books and things about being monsters but the only hot game in town is still White Wolf (or onyx path or whatever). Given how popular it is there should be a few more big, active things going on with it - active competing systems and settings. It's weird that it's not.

When I asked about urban fantasy settings on the savage world forum people recommended all kinds of settings which were no where near what I was looking for.

They were spygames vs the supernatural (Millenium Knights, Agents of Oblivion) or Victorian monster hunting (Rippers) or monsterteam fighting evil (Apocalypse Prevention Inc.) or modern horror (East Texas University).

With fantasy games you always have an alternative for D&D. I never cared much for D&D. I always played Warhammer Fantasy, which was the more edgier, mature version of D&D to me. You can play others like Runequest or Earthdawn.

WoD is more difficult to replace. At least the monster settings are. The mortal setting is replaceable, because that one is essiantially run-off-the-mill modern horror. I replaced it now with 12 to Midnight/Pinebox and ETU. Those 12TM adventures are sandboxy in nature btw, much better than those linear SAS adventures WW has. And maybe The Thin Blue Line, which is exactly what I already was doing with the WoD (the odds of that). Police investigating ghost and spirits in a rustbelt city.

To sum it up I am looking for a WoD-like setting minus the verbose writing style and the linear story GM's advice. Or a WoD-like setting plus concise writing and practical sandbox GM's advice.

Quote from: RPGPundit;849455It was a success in great part because of its pretentiousness and claims of being superior to regular RPGs. People who felt contempt for RPGs could play it and convince themselves they were above it all.

I think this is true specifically over those that currently are fawning over the current Vampire devs, that make up your detractors on TBP and abroad.

I believe this is less so for the majority of people who enjoyed CWoD. I would be among those. Personally for me, I'm definitely an old-school gamer that found Classic WoD to be a refreshing game when it landed. I would also say that among my crowd, we were huge fans of Anne Rice's books, and movies like Near Dark, Lost Boys, Bram Stoker's Dracula, etc. so here was a game giving us a nice system (i.e. different but playable) to explore those ideas of being a vampire in the modern world.

Could we have done that in D&D? Yeah. But it would not have been the same. It's one of the reasons I don't care for Ravenloft in general.

Not once did I buy into the silly "we're better than elf-games" hype. I took it as snark... nothing more. To the degree that is a false statement - I guess you'll have to ask them. I was in the midst of doing some work with them back in the early 90's and my brief gaming discussions with some of them, led me to believe they were just gamers like us.

Of course... times and attitudes change.

Hidden Secret - there were tons of horror and occult games before WW came along (looking at you, Chaosium!) but WW had pretty good writing, great great GREAT art direction and design and perfect timing to develop a brand that took off like wildfire. White Wolf basically ate Cyberpunk 2020's niche (trenchcoat and katana gaming). Further, White Wolf's mechanical design was perfect at the time, and still is - beginning PCs can be designed in 5 minutes in Vampire The Masquerade/Vampire The Requiem, and the setting lends itself very easily to live action role play, which no other setting does. The majority of vampire roleplayers reside in One World By Night and the Camarilla Fanclub, and these people also buy Onyx Path books as collector items. This is a perfect storm for marketing and branding.

Since then, there have been dozens of attempts to dislodge White Wolf from that ledge, with no luck. I can't state how important the live action aspect to creating an enduring fanbase and keeping the fandom alive has been for Vampire. While I don't know how much it has contributed to OPs bottom line, you can usually find at least a small OWBN or Camarilla LARP group in most major cities, and these people usually game VTM/VTR online or tabletop as well. The only other equivalent has been with WOTC and Paizo and their organized play programs (D&D Adventurer's League/Pathfinder Society). What's even more amazing is that OWBN and the Camarilla are generally entirely fan organized.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;849737Hidden Secret - there were tons of horror and occult games before WW came along (looking at you, Chaosium!) but WW had pretty good writing, great great GREAT art direction and design and perfect timing to develop a brand that took off like wildfire.

Tim Bradstreet.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;849737White Wolf basically ate Cyberpunk 2020's niche (trenchcoat and katana gaming).

Especially Mage the Ascension. The entire game is cyberpunkish, but especially the Sons of Ether and the Virtual Adepts were very cyberpunk. I think the races in general were very appealing in the oWoD. In the nWoD they seperated the politics from the races and moved that to the organisations; leaving the the races empty and bland. Like drinking flat Mr. Pibb.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;849917Tim Bradstreet.

Completely agree with this. Love his work.

Quote from: Ronin;849930Completely agree with this. Love his work.

This made me think for a moment here.... There sort of IS a competitor to the World of Darkness..

Shadowrun.... which was also made famous early on by beautiful Tim Bradstreet artwork...

But yeah, Shadowrun, Urban Fantasy and Horror against a Punk backdrop... Trenchcoats, mirror shades, and Katanas.....

4th edition tried to get away from this....but 5th edition re-embraced it.

There was a period in my late teens early 20's where I had completely rejected White Wolf games, because I felt between Deadlands and Shadowrun the niches I needed scratched were filled...

I went back of course a few years later....but I do think Shadowrun does fill at least some of that niche...

It's biggest problem is how the system is not newbie friendly and it doesn't encourage the kind of LARP style of play Vampire does...

But it's got Horror, rebelling against the system, magic, action, and style dripping down it's sleeve.

You know, Orphan might onto so something...  SR has hit it big, comparatively, I mean it's had 5 full editions and the game line is still happening...

I'm not going to say anything definite, but it seems to me that the 90's was both WW and Shadowrun's decade.

Hmm.... I'm not sure I buy the argument that it's the same niche - I've never seen it as a horror game, though you can add horror elements to anything.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;850018Hmm.... I'm not sure I buy the argument that it's the same niche - I've never seen it as a horror game, though you can add horror elements to anything.

Many of Shadowrun's most memorable adventures are more Horror based.

The Universal Brotherhood and it's insect spirits...

Harlequin's back and the need to prevent the "Horrors" (The lovecraftian Monsters who are slowly getting closer and closer to reality in Shadowrun thanks to the rise of magic) from arriving early.

The Renraku Acrology being taken over by the Mad A.I. Deus, who immideately began experimenting upon people within...

The arrival of the Shedim spirits in Hailey's Comet.

The Mad scientist in 2e who was removing the brains of children and hooking them up to the Matrix to raise them within it...

Aztechnology and it's embrace of full on Blood magic and human sacrifice..

This and the presence of Vampires, Ghouls, Chrome Reapers, Toxic Shamans, Adepts of the Twisted Way, Insect Shamans and Spirits, Blood Magic...

Dude if you don't see all the Horror in Shadowrun, you must not really be familiar with it.