Sorry your now on my ignore list not wasting anymore energy on pathetic piece of garbage.

Oh just eat shit and die.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1111705Just vet players first. That's what I do before starting a game with them.

This. And if it still doesn't work out - nobody's ability to judge people is perfect, so it happens - you can always be an adult, say "this isn't working out; we need to part ways." with the tact level adjusted as appropriate, and that's that. I've never really understood why people react to a few bad experiences with any kind of blanket ban. It seems like overkill, and a surefire way to lock out way more good experiences than bad.

Girls, giirrls, you're both beauti... oh, it's too late isn't it.

Well the sun'll come out to-morrow, tomorrow! Bet your bottom dollar, tomorrow, there'll be sun!

I'm referencing the quote in your signature.

The players who exploit the character generation are indulging in a dick measuring contest. To see who can create the biggest virtual penis. It has nothing to do with them actually participating in the actual campaign.

For them it is all about having the most minmaxed and exploitive character. They actually don't care about actually playing. For them it is about them being the center of attention while they force everybody else to watch their mathematical masturbation.

The only reason they are there is to waste the time of everybody else. It is absolutely anti-social acting out.

Sometimes people like to learn the rules, use the rules to the fullest because its how you test your mastery... AND they like to play the game.  Embrace the power of And. Better yet, get your mind reading license renewed, because you keep impinging motives onto people. You are not professor X.

Hell, I'm not even sure why you are so upset with min-maxers. They don't break campaigns and ruin games... they are almost always dynamic and engaged players because they actually want to do shit. Its the passive seat warmers that can just eat a game in my experience, sucking the life and energy out of a game by refusing to engage in anything, refusing to learn even the most common rules.

Different strokes and all that.

Quote from: Spike;1111871Hell, I'm not even sure why you are so upset with min-maxers. They don't break campaigns and ruin games... they are almost always dynamic and engaged players because they actually want to do shit. Its the passive seat warmers that can just eat a game in my experience, sucking the life and energy out of a game by refusing to engage in anything, refusing to learn even the most common rules.

The thing about dynamic and engaged players though is they're also the ones most likely to have their own ideas and be self-motivated in finding their own plot lines instead of going with what the GM thinks should happen.

DK's already admitted to preferring FATE so my hunch is his real problem is he's a frustrated author and his "bad players" are those with enough agency to not follow his railroad.

Quote from: Chris24601;1111900The thing about dynamic and engaged players though is they're also the ones most likely to have their own ideas and be self-motivated in finding their own plot lines instead of going with what the GM thinks should happen.

Well... yes!

My interest in FATE developed after the campaign in question blew up.

The greater sense of player engagement required for a FATE game definitely was an aspect I was interested in. Anything that gets the players more involved in the game is good. In my opinion.

The problem I had with the two players that caused the campaign to detonate was their utter refusal to engage with the campaign in any way. They wanted everything handed to them like the GM was a server at a buffet. They didn't actually want to be engaged in the game.

No matter the system. If you have players refuse to engage with the game. You might as well have empty seats. Because those players are utterly useless. They are not participants. They are just taking up space.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1111831And as for the hatred and contempt aimed at me. I don't care. My opinions are my opinions. And nobody has any right to tell me they are wrong.

I don't think it's hatred and contempt, but people here have every right to tell you that you're wrong.  If you say 'I like broccoli because it is sweet', well, that's an opinion, but it is also wrong.  I mean, you can like broccoli, sure, but like it for the right reasons!  

Here's a quote that I've found very helpful.

QuoteAll of your relationships have one thing in common: you. You are the fundamental unit of every partnership, friendship, romantic entanglement, or antagonistic encounter you've ever had.

Sometimes things don't work out because what you want and what someone else wants are just too far apart.  But more often, it stems from an unwillingness to find a compromise that works for everyone.  

You could watch a short video of someone reading Ladybug Girl and Bumblebee Boy for an example of both the problem and a solution.

Hell I prefer Min-maxers to the opposite. The ones that deliberately make a terrible character and expect the DM. players or both to cover their weaknesses. While getting angry both at not being able to do anything and everyone else not helping them overcome their too flawed character. The first while I find annoying at least can actually contribute to both the campaign and party. The second for example will make a highly skilled character with no combat skills and dump stat the necessary stats to be effective. Make a non-melee class in a campaign where both players and DMs warn of it being mostly combat then being almost utter useless and whine they can't do anything and why no one else is doing a dam thing to fix it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1111944I don't think it's hatred and contempt, but people here have every right to tell you that you're wrong.  If you say 'I like broccoli because it is sweet', well, that's an opinion, but it is also wrong.  I mean, you can like broccoli, sure, but like it for the right reasons!  

Honestly your advice and everyone and anyone else here on this forum, others and in real life will fall on stubborn deaf ears. Te OP insists and keeps spamming multiple threads where they want a congratulatory, validation, mutual masturbation "just damn agree with me will you" style responses.

Yes I know I said I would not post again yet as the OP holds everyone here in complete and utter contempt if we don't agree with him 10000% I'm not giving him any satisfaction.

Quote from: Chris24601;1111900The thing about dynamic and engaged players though is they're also the ones most likely to have their own ideas and be self-motivated in finding their own plot lines instead of going with what the GM thinks should happen.

DK's already admitted to preferring FATE so my hunch is his real problem is he's a frustrated author and his "bad players" are those with enough agency to not follow his railroad.

From what I can see here and elsewhere the OP wants mindless drones for players who should just bend over backwards and completely agree with him at all times. Failing to get what he wants and refusing to possibly admit he may be at fault. Assume it's everyone else fault.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1111831And as for the hatred and contempt aimed at me. I don't care. My opinions are my opinions. And nobody has any right to tell me they are wrong.

Will you be able to get that cross back to Jesus? And how do you nail your other arm to it? That's a neat trick.

Ever notice that almost everyone that throws out "my opinions are just my opinions and you can't tell me they're wrong!" type lines does it after or during screeds about how people that disagree with them are wrong bad people who should feel bad about their bad wrong opinions?

I just wish Darrin would expend his word count in this thread debating Hero System mechanics. I'd be all ears for that.

Quote from: CarlD.;1112023Will you be able to get that cross back to Jesus? And how do you nail your other arm to it? That's a neat trick.

Ever notice that almost everyone that throws out "my opinions are just my opinions and you can't tell me they're wrong!" type lines does it after or during screeds about how people that disagree with them are wrong bad people who should feel bad about their bad wrong opinions?

The thing is he knows he won't get the backslapping complete and utter vindication he wants yet he keeps trying anyway. What do you call someone who insists on doing the same thing over and over again and failing consistently. Stupid, Insane and both.