I'm going to warn everybody from the outset. This is going to be a controversial topic with Hero System fans. Because it takes a direct critical view of what some people consider a pillar of the system. It's a full-on roasting of that subject. But I believe it is well deserved.

I'm posting this warning here in advance. So people are well warned about what is to come. So they can avoid getting into a potentially contentious discussion before it even starts.

brb grabbing some popcorn.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1102381brb grabbing some popcorn.

Bring double I'll bring the sodas. :cool:

Damn I ate all my popcorn in the Grifter thread so I will just imagine eating popcorn.

The Multipower. What I consider the biggest cheat in the entire Hero System's history. Which also became the foundation in which another Power Framework called the Variable Power Pool was based upon.

It's a construct based on flawed math that breaks apart if you put too many power slots on it. Of either of the two varieties.

It works by paying full price for a central pool that determines the maximum Active Point Value of any power to become a slot. Active Point value is: The cost of the power level itself. Plus any Power Advantages attached to the power.

The cost of additional slots stops being worth it if you reach 5 different powers in a Variable Slot or 10 for a Fixed slot. As the collective cost of the slots tends to exceed that of the central pool.

The point cost of the Variable Slot is 1/5th the Active Cost of the pool itself. And for Fixed Slots the cost is 1/10th the cost of the central pool. But that is also where it is broken.

The Multipower is doesn't limit powers significantly at all. It's literally giving some huge discounts without really doing anything but adding extra complexity to the character build.

A central meta-rule of the Hero System is: A limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth points. Yet the Multipower gives huge discounts on powers without any real hindrance to the player at all. It's a direct conflict with the central meta-rule.

Additionally. The discount given for each type of slot is well in excess of how the actual math in Hero System character creation works. It is way too beneficial on both levels. Creating a discount based on the simple idea that multiple different powers with different advantages give diminishing value the more you have. Which really isn't limiting anything.

Oh, and you can put Power Limitations on both the Central Pool and the Slots individually. Which just complicates character creation even more.

The way the math works in the Hero System is based on fractions. Fractions added or subtracted from the base power depending on how much the Advantage or Limitation brings in benefit.

These fractions are measured in .25 increments. With .25 representing something that comes up a quarter of the time. A .5 appearing in play half the time. And a 1 appearing all the time. This is for both Advantages and Limitations. Which are the foundation of how the Power System in the Hero System works.

To get the final cost of the Advantages. You multiply 1 plus the additional fractions. And for Limitations you divide instead.

But if you look the progression of how Limitations are valued. Then compare it to the discount the slots of a Multipower cost. You get a conflict in the values. The Multipower slots give way too much benefit. It's broken because it contradicts how actual limitations work.

And in my opinion? It and its derivations need to go away.

On top of that. There was the adoption in Hero System 5th Edition of a new Advantage called Variable Advantage. Which does everything the Multipower was supposed to do. But at correct pricing.

Variable Advantage lets the player switch Power Advantages on that power on the fly. Depending on what they do in play. So same function as a Multipower. But at an actual cost. And a lot less complicated to express on a character sheet.

One of the other meta-rules of the Hero System is: You are supposed to take the most expensive option on creation of a power. Not the cheapest. Which pretty much kills any use of the Multipower at all.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102377I'm going to warn everybody from the outset. This is going to be a controversial topic with Hero System fans. Because it takes a direct critical view of what some people consider a pillar of the system. It's a full-on roasting of that subject. But I believe it is well deserved.

I'm posting this warning here in advance. So people are well warned about what is to come. So they can avoid getting into a potentially contentious discussion before it even starts.

But but? We allready know the rulebook can only stop SOME bullets?

Quote from: Omega;1102397But but? We allready know the rulebook can only stop SOME bullets?

Add the Sidekick book, and maybe one other and I think it might work up to a 45 cal.

I feel I have to address this issue. Because the Multipower has been replicated by many other systems. From Mutants & Masterminds to the newest version of Villains & Vigilantes and more.

And the creator of this mathematical abomination seems pleased as punch that his cheat has been inflicted on as many RPGs as possible.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102409I feel I have to address this issue. Because the Multipower has been replicated by many other systems. From Mutants & Masterminds to the newest version of Villains & Vigilantes and more.

And the creator of this mathematical abomination seems pleased as punch that his cheat has been inflicted on as many RPGs as possible.

Not saying you're wrong, now how would you solve it? How do you get a character with multipowers without what you call a mathematical abomination??

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1102410Not saying you're wrong, now how would you solve it? How do you get a character with multipowers without what you call a mathematical abomination??

Already exists with Variable Advantage. Which covers the same functions that both the Multipower and Variable Power Pool are most commonly used for. Changing Advantages on Powers.

With the Multipower and Variable Power Pool, you have to write out a completely different power for each option you want on a power. Variable Advantage makes it so you don't have to.

I don't necessarily disagree, but there are other things in Hero I would redo before Multipower. Like getting rid of the Body/KA scale and just using the Stun/Normal Damage scale. Or getting rid of Endurance, which is just a waste of time. Those things bother me more.

This is like complaining about a rule in Tunnels and Trolls, dude.  Nobody's going to change it. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.  I mean, I'm certainly not convinced it needs changing.  At all.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1102396The Multipower is doesn't limit powers significantly at all. It's literally giving some huge discounts without really doing anything but adding extra complexity to the character build.

A central meta-rule of the Hero System is: A limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth points. Yet the Multipower gives huge discounts on powers without any real hindrance to the player at all. It's a direct conflict with the central meta-rule.

The Multipower is an imperfect way to address the problem that one big effect is worth more than a choice of several small effect. To take an example:  

Captain Power has a single 15d6 force blast. That's 75 points.

Captain Flexible has five different powers: a 3d6 force blast, a 2d6 armor-piercing ice blast, a 1.5d6 ego attack, a 1.5d6 gas attack (no normal defense), and a 2d6 no-endurance attack. Each of these is 15 points for a total of 75 points.


These are the same cost, but the 15d6 attack is vastly more effective. No one is going to want Captain Flexible on their team, doing almost no damage in five different ways. I would argue that the multipower cost scheme is a more reasonable price for flexibility. With a multipower, Captain Flexible could have slots with a 10d6 force blast, a 6d6 armor-piercing ice blast, a 5d6 ego attack, a 5d6 gas attack (no normal defense), and a 6d6 no-endurance attack. I think that's a more reasonable peer for Captain Power.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1102415This is like complaining about a rule in Tunnels and Trolls, dude.  Nobody's going to change it. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.  I mean, I'm certainly not convinced it needs changing.  At all.

I've played classic Tunnels & Trolls. That game has nothing compared to this particular abomination. Those rules are actually consistent.

This thing? It comes up in literally every character made. And is the cause of endless at the table arguments and headaches for the GM. Which detracts from actually having fun with the game.

Quote from: jhkim;1102416The Multipower is an imperfect way to address the problem that one big effect is worth more than a choice of several small effect. To take an example:  

Captain Power has a single 15d6 force blast. That's 75 points.

Captain Flexible has five different powers: a 3d6 force blast, a 2d6 armor-piercing ice blast, a 1.5d6 ego attack, a 1.5d6 gas attack (no normal defense), and a 2d6 no-endurance attack. Each of these is 15 points for a total of 75 points.


These are the same cost, but the 15d6 attack is vastly more effective. No one is going to want Captain Flexible on their team, doing almost no damage in five different ways. I would argue that the multipower cost scheme is a more reasonable price for flexibility. With a multipower, Captain Flexible could have slots with a 10d6 force blast, a 6d6 armor-piercing ice blast, a 5d6 ego attack, a 5d6 gas attack (no normal defense), and a 6d6 no-endurance attack. I think that's a more reasonable peer for Captain Power.

As I pointed out in an earlier post. One of the Meta Rules of the Hero System states: That if there are multiple options for creating powers, the person is supposed to take the most expensive option. Not the cheapest.

The Multipower gives an extremely unfair advantage to those who use it. One, that by the rules themselves, shouldn't exist.

Advantages, as stated in the rules, are to be paid for. Not provide ridiculous discounts.