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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Warder on October 14, 2020, 05:29:43 pm

Title: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Warder on October 14, 2020, 05:29:43 pm
Yeah, i know, another SJW rpg production, news at eleven. Apparently its PBTA ''queer swashbuckling''. I would give the link but im not advertising it, so if anybody is interested its on kickstarter. And its by Evil Hat, by golly what a combo. ''Thirsty Sword Lesbians provides clear, robust guidance and support for running the game, including how to make appealing adversaries, set the tone, structure play, and create a safe environment at the table.'' So, safe spaces are a must. One of the available settings is ''Monster Queers of Castle Gayskull''. Ok, i recognise He-Man has become a big of a joke these days but there is a new rpg using cortex system coming out, and to be frank i still like he man as it was supposed to be, a bit preachy series with a buff dude who saves people.

''This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people'' Yeah, i would do heart surgery on myself before i played this yes but i just love how it marginalises all the other people it dosent include in the sentence before. This is what i have come to expect from evil asshat, yet im still interested in what they come up with, one can enjoy a lot of stuff without experiencing it as intended.

All in all, its a topic i thought i would like to share with this board. Why? Frankly i am interested in reactions and i find it funny to think somebody would want to play as a thirsty lesbian. Do lesbians play rpgs? Are they the target audience? And if they do, should we be against it or for it? Personally i dont care, more power to them. Rpgs are a niche crowd. Kickstarters are aimed at niche crowds. Yet somehow i feel this is not one of those cases. This product seems to be more woke that the average bear and it says ''no, we only want our people to enjoy this.'' The target audience in real rpgs are people, yes. Just people, all of them. So, in my opinion, they done goofed on their target audience, its a bigoted product.

If this post came out as a bit of obvious stuff, please bear with me, its a bit late here and im probably rambling. Still, i wanted to share my heart ::)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Armchair Gamer on October 14, 2020, 06:08:48 pm
I got a notice about this because I backed the original Fate Kickstarter, and decided to rubberneck. One line jumped out at me:

" If you want to play thirsty sword cishets, we’re not going to stop you—just don’t be surprised if the game turns them queer."

   One could derive all sorts of Unfortunate and Problematic Implications from that ...
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: RandyB on October 14, 2020, 06:26:09 pm
So, they are admitting that grooming is real. Good to know.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 14, 2020, 06:32:27 pm
I came for the lesbians and stayed for the “WTF is this SJW shit?”

No thanks! I’ll just roll a female character in D&D and make her a lesbian instead. She doesn’t even need to be a fighter, I can make her any class I want. Could do it in other games too. Have done it as well. I could play a lesbian character in Cyberpunk 2020 or RIFTS (though, she’d get splattered by the MDC).

You guys knew you could do that in any game, right? Have been able to do it for decades! But apparently some people needed permission from Evil Asshat to play that in an RPG. Cuz apparently not explicitly saying so in the rules and making everything about “QuEeR LiBeRaTiOn” or some shit means that the game doesn’t acknowledge their existence or some other nonsense.

Did you guys know you can’t actually play straight characters in D&D? No edition has ever mentioned them—ever! That means that a characters in D&D are asexual by default or something by these people’s logic.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 14, 2020, 08:01:43 pm
So are they giving it away for free as Fred Hicks declared money the root of all evil. Or is he being a hypocrite and asking people to still back the Kickstarter for the game.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 14, 2020, 08:12:32 pm
I'm all for roleplaying hot lesbians, but I have my suspicions it'll be a bunch of fat ones.

EDIT: Yep...concept art proves me right
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Thornhammer on October 14, 2020, 09:15:39 pm
Castle Gayskull?

Ohhh, I'm filing that one away for later.

Filing it under "R" for "Running Joke."

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Svenhelgrim on October 14, 2020, 09:20:16 pm
I am sure that this game will be the next big thing. 

[Actually I rolled my eyes so hard that I saw my medulla oblongata.]
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ponta1010 on October 14, 2020, 09:23:33 pm
I also received the Kickstarter notice, and am not impressed with the tone of the rpg nor the manner in which it’s been advertised. The one thing I feel that should possibly be defended is the original creator, who I understand released their original version on itch.io(?).

I can understand the attraction of being approached by a larger rpg company and giving them the ability to release a ‘bigger and better’ version of it.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 14, 2020, 09:26:15 pm
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: lordmalachdrim on October 14, 2020, 10:03:33 pm
I got a notice about this because I backed the original Fate Kickstarter, and decided to rubberneck. One line jumped out at me:

" If you want to play thirsty sword cishets, we’re not going to stop you—just don’t be surprised if the game turns them queer."

   One could derive all sorts of Unfortunate and Problematic Implications from that ...

cishets? That looks almost like is should be pronounced shits
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 14, 2020, 11:10:52 pm
Thirsty Sword Lesbians

Oh, yeah baby.  ;)

Thirsty Sword Lesbians in chain mail bikinis, I am sure Venger has an RPG for that.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 15, 2020, 02:36:49 am
If people want to buy this game and enjoy playing it then good for them. There are a lot of games that I don't like for whatever reason, I don't play them. But I hope other people have fun with them. Simple as that.

Let other people who are not like you have fun playing the games they enjoy the way they enjoy them. Why do you care about people having fun role-playing? How does this game hurt you, in any way?

Why is this an issue for you all?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ponta1010 on October 15, 2020, 02:51:43 am
If people want to buy this game and enjoy playing it then good for them. There are a lot of games that I don't like for whatever reason, I don't play them. Simple as that.

Let other people who are not like you have fun playing the games they enjoy the way they enjoy them.

Why is this an issue for you all?
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

Happy to amuse you.  :)

On a more serious note, for me personally, if the LBGTQI+ lobby want to support a game and have fun that's fine.
No they're not forcing me to play the game......          yet.

Some recent kickstarter's have become rather blatant with certain statements, that phrased in a similar way but opposite way would be considered highly offensive to the LBGTQI lobby. I await a kickstarter that contains the statement 'No queers should play this game!', and survives unchanged to the end of its funding.

Edit: OK got to put my hand up to this and admit my memory was faulty. The information struck out was completely incorrect. The kickstarter I was thinking of was attempting to ban anyone (ie not supply any product) to anyone who was a jerk or spamming.
One LBGTQI aligned kickstarter had to alter its page after it was flagged as problematic to kickstarter for voicing similar sentiments to this one (can't remember its name, but I know that if I do some digging I could find it). About a month later this one comes along with similar sentiments. I await to see whether this is similarly modified.
This still leaves the question as to whether the statements about This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people. are hateful or not and actually are against kickstarter rules.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 15, 2020, 03:02:54 am
If people want to buy this game and enjoy playing it then good for them. There are a lot of games that I don't like for whatever reason, I don't play them. Simple as that.

Let other people who are not like you have fun playing the games they enjoy the way they enjoy them.

Why is this an issue for you all?
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

Happy to amuse you.  :)

On a more serious note, for me personally, if the LBGTQI+ lobby want to support a game and have fun that's fine.
No they're not forcing me to play the game......          yet.

Some recent kickstarter's have become rather blatant with certain statements, that phrased in a similar way but opposite way would be considered highly offensive to the LBGTQI lobby. I await a kickstarter that contains the statement 'No queers should play this game!', and survives unchanged to the end of its funding.

One LBGTQI aligned kickstarter had to alter its page after it was flagged as problematic to kickstarter for voicing similar sentiments to this one (can't remember its name, but I know that if I do some digging I could find it). About a month later this one comes along with similar sentiments. I await to see whether this is similarly modified.
You have perceived harm based on your entitlement that all games need to cater to your desires.

Who really cares if an LGBT-pro game designer states that they want to make a game for LGBT aligned players?

The people who find that interesting and encouraging do. They deserve to be catered to and to enjoy games that are authored to support their interests.

Everyone else may not care... and that is fine. They are promoting their game to a specific market of people that they care about and want to provide a game experience for.

Why in the wildest f*ck would you care if you were not committed to that? Like what is the harm you experience that this game exists? I honestly don't get it.

Is it more than you just don't like it? Is there some real harm inflicted upon you by this game's existence?


Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Nerzenjäger on October 15, 2020, 03:03:35 am

Oh, yeah baby.  ;)

Thirsty Sword Lesbians in chain mail bikinis, I am sure Venger has an RPG for that.

I honestly thought it's a new release bei Venger.  :-[
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on October 15, 2020, 03:26:22 am
Yeah, i know, another SJW rpg production, news at eleven. Apparently its PBTA ''queer swashbuckling''. And its by Evil Hat, by golly what a combo.
All you had to say was Evil Hat.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: theOutlander on October 15, 2020, 03:28:14 am
Let the "underrepresented voices" say what they have to say, or yell what they have to yell. When the market oversaturates with token LGBTetc products, they will either die out or the creators will be forced through competition to make good products by virtue of being good games (instead of being a statement or whatever).
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Spinachcat on October 15, 2020, 04:38:25 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: theOutlander on October 15, 2020, 04:51:33 am
This game is not for fascists

I don't even know they know what this statement means anymore.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ponta1010 on October 15, 2020, 05:13:43 am
You have perceived harm based on your entitlement that all games need to cater to your desires.
Thanks for that, I needed to be told what I'm thinking.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 15, 2020, 05:42:15 am
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

All my lesbian players have been hot, so I wouldn't know.  ;D Their PCs tend to be competent, fit women in possibly more practical armour than favoured by some straight female players.

But I'm guessing that even fat miserable incompetent lesbians don't want to play fat miserable incompetent PCs.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Simon W on October 15, 2020, 06:13:34 am
Surely it's a joke, right?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 15, 2020, 06:34:12 am
Venger's version of this would be far superior.

On a serious note, I don't really give a fuck what people want to play or produce. You want to make a game that caters to niche market A? By all means go for it. My problem is that the kind of people who write and play this shit are cancel happy fuck heads itching to fetch the pitchforks for anyone to the right Neo-liberal figure head of the week. Thus on principle I oppose this work.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 15, 2020, 06:56:54 am
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

All I’m saying is that fat lesbians have always been able to roll dice and make fat lesbian characters in every RPG ever created (except maybe ones where all PCs are robots or something), and anyone who pretends or implies otherwise is gonna get criticism and mockery from me.

If people want to buy this game and enjoy playing it then good for them. There are a lot of games that I don't like for whatever reason, I don't play them. Simple as that.

Let other people who are not like you have fun playing the games they enjoy the way they enjoy them.

Why is this an issue for you all?
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

Happy to amuse you.  :)

On a more serious note, for me personally, if the LBGTQI+ lobby want to support a game and have fun that's fine.
No they're not forcing me to play the game......          yet.

Some recent kickstarter's have become rather blatant with certain statements, that phrased in a similar way but opposite way would be considered highly offensive to the LBGTQI lobby. I await a kickstarter that contains the statement 'No queers should play this game!', and survives unchanged to the end of its funding.

One LBGTQI aligned kickstarter had to alter its page after it was flagged as problematic to kickstarter for voicing similar sentiments to this one (can't remember its name, but I know that if I do some digging I could find it). About a month later this one comes along with similar sentiments. I await to see whether this is similarly modified.
You have perceived harm based on your entitlement that all games need to cater to your desires.

Who really cares if an LGBT-pro game designer states that they want to make a game for LGBT aligned players?

The people who find that interesting and encouraging do. They deserve to be catered to and to enjoy games that are authored to support their interests.

Everyone else may not care... and that is fine. They are promoting their game to a specific market of people that they care about and want to provide a game experience for.

Why in the wildest f*ck would you care if you were not committed to that? Like what is the harm you experience that this game exists? I honestly don't get it.

Is it more than you just don't like it? Is there some real harm inflicted upon you by this game's existence?

Nobody cares that this game exists, they care that its marketing makes loaded, adversarial statements and pushes a political ideology and agenda. And this game isn’t meant to cater to the LGBT crowd, it’s meant to cater to people who subscribe to a specific political ideology, and anyone who doesn’t subscribe to that ideology is a “fascist” who needs to “fix [their] heart before sharing a table with other people”.

Is there real harm inflicted upon them (or you) by people complaining about or criticizing this game’s existence, or the adversarial political message it seeks to push? Or are people not allowed to complain about or criticize people calling them “fascists”?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 15, 2020, 07:57:00 am
Lulz. I think /tg/ did this already with Car Lesbians.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 15, 2020, 08:08:15 am
Why in the wildest f*ck would you care if you were not committed to that?
Because it exposes the ludicrous double standard not only the RPG industry but also in Kickstarter. That certain privileged identities can produce game which specifically exclude other people whereas other groups of people cannot.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 15, 2020, 08:22:06 am
It's not the game existence. If other players want to run and play it more power to them. I don't need game designers especially woke ones lie Evil Hat and Fred Hicks writing a manifesto that essential guilt trips players into feeling poorly if they don't like the rpg or feel the same way they do. Sell your product and leave your damn politics at home or in the gaming office. Then again this is the same company that called Lovecraft an evil racist yet used the world he built to sell a product. Fred Hicks calls money the root of all evil yet in the same sentence makes sure to tell fans to keep sending them money.

While we are it no one gets to tell me or anyone else hear what we can or can't talk about. If we want to call out the game designers for being woke and their own sheer hypocrisy it's NO ONE business to be telling me or anyone else we can't criticize it. If someone enjoys the rpg more power to them. Just like we are allowed to talk about the rpg. Sorry this site ain't like other rpg forums where the majority follow the echo chamber
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 15, 2020, 08:26:07 am
I don't even know they know what this statement means anymore.

It shows to me proof positive that anyone who says something like this has no clue what actually Fascists really are. Essentially a Fascist is anyone and everyone who disagrees with them.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 15, 2020, 10:07:37 am
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

Who's offended..? Mildly amused at this stupidity, that's about it.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 15, 2020, 11:08:12 am
Castle Gayskull?

Ohhh, I'm filing that one away for later.

Filing it under "R" for "Running Joke."

BTRC did it many a year ago, and better. A whole adventure featuring She-Her and He-Him.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 15, 2020, 11:12:19 am
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

Its not the subject matter. Its the how and the who of its presentation as a SJW trainer. Ditch that and its no more offensive than anything BTRC ever made. EG: Someone somewhere will be offended by something that no one else on earth is offended by. Then demand and/or convince others to be offended too.

The reactions here and elsewhere are a byproduct of having to deal with this sort of stupid over and over and over.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 15, 2020, 11:48:13 am
Curses! Another progressive RPG that mocks my evil, conservative villian moustache! I shall now slink back under my rock while the purple haired social justice warriors clap.

Meh, this sounds like a pathetic attention grab.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Slambo on October 15, 2020, 12:27:05 pm
If she's thirsty get her a Brawndo. Also, this seems like it might actually be kinda offensive to actual lesbians, most of whom are just normal people who might think the whole Monster Queers of Castle Gayskull and the art is intentionally making fun of them. I somehiw ended up with a table with 3 lesbians so maybe ill ask them what they think.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 15, 2020, 12:43:58 pm
Its possible its intended to appeal only to 3rd wave "feminists"? Who seem to be composed mostly of nutcase lesbians who treat other women and "lesser" lesbians like dirt.

Or maybe the promotors are morons. Again.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 15, 2020, 12:46:42 pm
Its possible its intended to appeal only to 3rd wave "feminists"? Who seem to be composed mostly of nutcase lesbians who treat other women and "lesser" lesbians like dirt.

With the reference to "Fascists & TERFS", they're certainly going for the 'Woke Lesbian' market - mostly straight men in dresses and silly college students, AFAICT.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 15, 2020, 12:59:51 pm
It seems like with a lot of the small time SJW focused RPG's, the creators are like a little kid who goes off all alone and says that they've made the greatest club ever, it's so great, but Billy can't join, and Tom can't join, and Jane can't join... Not that anybody actually even knows about it or wants to join. Saying that these bad scary people aren't allowed to play is silly enough for Vampire: the Masquerade, where some right wingers might actually want to play, but for a game like this it's doubly absurd.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 15, 2020, 01:36:21 pm
It seems like with a lot of the small time SJW focused RPG's, the creators are like a little kid who goes off all alone and says that they've made the greatest club ever, it's so great, but Billy can't join, and Tom can't join, and Jane can't join... Not that anybody actually even knows about it or wants to join. Saying that these bad scary people aren't allowed to play is silly enough for Vampire: the Masquerade, where some right wingers might actually want to play, but for a game like this it's doubly absurd.

I do admit. The idea that the regressive progressives feel that they control the community and can gate keep anyone they deem undesirable gets under my skin a bit.
People not following the culture war might think "Hey, whatever. Lesbians. Let's be accepting and get along." and not have any problems until they step on a landmine like use the term "sexual preference" and get browbeat for being offensive to gays.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 15, 2020, 01:47:12 pm
With the reference to "Fascists & TERFS", they're certainly going for the 'Woke Lesbian' market - mostly straight men in dresses and silly college students, AFAICT.

So if I start wearing a dress to school, does that make me a lesbian? Do I get money or something? I'll let my wife know, might save on tuition costs.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 15, 2020, 02:31:09 pm
I do admit. The idea that the regressive progressives feel that they control the community and can gate keep anyone they deem undesirable gets under my skin a bit.
People not following the culture war might think "Hey, whatever. Lesbians. Let's be accepting and get along." and not have any problems until they step on a landmine like use the term "sexual preference" and get browbeat for being offensive to gays.
Yeah, well in the case of this game, we might find it amusing or hateful, but it seems not to have much of an affect on anybody. But this same kind of thinking isn't limited to the fringes of indy RPGs. These are the ideas coming out of our universities and these are the ideas increasingly dominating the corporate world. The government has even adopted much of this ideology, especially education and various agencies and bureaucracies. So it's really not very amusing when you could lose your job or be expelled from college for making a heretical comment.

The culture war matters, because it's gone so far beyond merely tolerating people with differences.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: CRKrueger on October 15, 2020, 03:31:39 pm
Jesus Wept guys, congrats for falling into the trap.

The whole point of this exercise by Evil Hat is to Virtue Signal by getting pushback and criticism that allows them to gather Alphabet Cred.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Melan on October 15, 2020, 04:44:46 pm
This looks like a 4chan psyop, except it has already picked up a bunch of money.

How long before some/all of the authors get outed as sex pests?  ;)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 15, 2020, 05:48:46 pm
The depths some people will go to get a product with no real substance noticed just blows my mind. This is just a complete WTF moment for me in publishing. That people would actually pay money for something so obviously banal and forgettable.

I don't see what this product actually brings to the RPG hobby. What possibly can be said on the topic at this point that Macho Women With Guns hasn't already in a much more eloquent manner.

This book is a whole lot of nothing. A nothingburger. So tell me. Why should I care about it?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 15, 2020, 10:22:24 pm
Why in the wildest f*ck would you care if you were not committed to that?
Because it exposes the ludicrous double standard not only the RPG industry but also in Kickstarter. That certain privileged identities can produce game which specifically exclude other people whereas other groups of people cannot.

I like how old school ADnD excludes stupid people.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: consolcwby on October 16, 2020, 02:29:03 am
I love the title, even though it sounds like Lesbians Thirsty for Swords. Make of that what you wish.  ;D
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Spinachcat on October 16, 2020, 05:03:09 am
Jesus Wept guys, congrats for falling into the trap.

1. The trap had cookies.
2. We like cookies and since both "words are violence" AND "silence is violence", the party for the kewl kids is inside the meaningless trap.
3. Jesus needs to nut up and stop crying so much.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 16, 2020, 05:49:46 am
I don't see what this product actually brings to the RPG hobby. What possibly can be said on the topic at this point that Macho Women With Guns hasn't already in a much more eloquent manner.

MWWG was for straight white male nerds to play sexy lesbian stripper ninjas shooting male chauvinist pigs, in a comedic manner.
TSL is for straight white male nerds to play fat unattractive black lesbians dealing with their relationship issues, in a Very Serious manner.

So, clearly completely different!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 16, 2020, 07:48:55 am
Jesus Wept guys, congrats for falling into the trap.

The whole point of this exercise by Evil Hat is to Virtue Signal by getting pushback and criticism that allows them to gather Alphabet Cred.

That is something I'd considered. But with these loons its so hard to tell anymore.

Outrage marketing could well be in effect here. Free advertising right here on the RPGsite.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 16, 2020, 07:52:34 am
MWWG was for straight white male nerds to play sexy lesbian stripper ninjas shooting male chauvinist pigs, in a comedic manner.

Bemusingly my sisters loved Macho Women with Guns.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 16, 2020, 08:21:28 am
The depths some people will go to get a product with no real substance noticed just blows my mind. This is just a complete WTF moment for me in publishing. That people would actually pay money for something so obviously banal and forgettable.

The irony is that because the company expanded too quickly they lost money and had to cut back on their production schedule. Somehow this product is not only going to reverse that it's going to make them tons of money.

I don't see what this product actually brings to the RPG hobby. What possibly can be said on the topic at this point that Macho Women With Guns hasn't already in a much more eloquent manner.

To show that the owner of the company and the company itself is as woke as possible and to make sure that they are spouting all the correct SJW buzzwords. Remember Fred Hicks is the same person who accused HP Lovecraft of being a racist yet attached Cthulhu to his last product because otherwise it would not have sold as well. Claims money is the root of all evil yet routinely uses Kickstarter and makes sure to tell their fans to support Evil Hats latest Kickstarter.  Then gets triggered and offended when rightly called out on his hypocrisy.


Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Armchair Gamer on October 16, 2020, 08:27:34 am
Jesus Wept guys, congrats for falling into the trap.

The whole point of this exercise by Evil Hat is to Virtue Signal by getting pushback and criticism that allows them to gather Alphabet Cred.

   I doubt it--all the 'best people' are on board with the LGBTQIAAETC movement, after all, and while the persecution narrative still gets some traction, this seems to be part of the 'celebrate, expand, and punish unbelievers' phase.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 16, 2020, 09:01:44 am
I like how old school ADnD excludes stupid people.

That really goes a long way to explaining why so many "modern gamers" hate it.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 16, 2020, 09:56:02 am
MWWG was for straight white male nerds to play sexy lesbian stripper ninjas shooting male chauvinist pigs, in a comedic manner.

Bemusingly my sisters loved Macho Women with Guns.

That does again raise the point that far more real women want to play characters who look like

(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/macho_women_with_guns_bw_cover.jpg)

than like

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/030/941/902/de3b2b4a59f48dfdfbcd683706af56ac_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1602270516&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=75043917cae23e0dfd5e467481e14623)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Melan on October 16, 2020, 10:06:32 am
That's OK, because if you look at the list of makers mentioned on the KS campaign page, or even the Twitter chatter surrounding the game, you will notice something really, really curious:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/476326897370791947/766581299795984404/thirsty_backers.png)

I will let you discover what that is.  ;)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 16, 2020, 10:35:00 am
Greetings!

Indeed. They are all gay and Trans men, a few weird gender-fluid, polyamorous women, and in general, rainbow freaks.

They are all So fabulous! ::)

These people are the tip of the spear of much of the insane Marxism and "Intersectionality" BS that are invading our society and hobby and seeking to transform and change everything through the "glorious revolution".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 16, 2020, 10:59:22 am
I love the title, even though it sounds like Lesbians Thirsty for Swords. Make of that what you wish.  ;D

I pretty much had this same thought when I first read the title. I was like “why would lesbians be thirsty for swords? Isn’t the point of lesbians that they don’t like swords?”  ???

MWWG was for straight white male nerds to play sexy lesbian stripper ninjas shooting male chauvinist pigs, in a comedic manner.

Bemusingly my sisters loved Macho Women with Guns.

Obviously they were suffering from internalized misogyny.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Armchair Gamer on October 16, 2020, 12:00:06 pm

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/030/941/902/de3b2b4a59f48dfdfbcd683706af56ac_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1602270516&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=75043917cae23e0dfd5e467481e14623)

  Is it just me, or do the rightmost and third-from-the-right figures look like they come from a completely different game/setting than the rest?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 16, 2020, 12:26:13 pm
That's OK, because if you look at the list of makers mentioned on the KS campaign page, or even the Twitter chatter surrounding the game, you will notice something really, really curious:

I will let you discover what that is.  ;)


(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/030/941/902/de3b2b4a59f48dfdfbcd683706af56ac_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1602270516&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=75043917cae23e0dfd5e467481e14623)

Welp, first of all, these iconic characters for the game all look like drag queens. Most hardcore man-hating lesbians find drag queens more offensive than a mere white cis-gendered guy.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 01:09:30 pm
Welp, first of all, these iconic characters for the game all look like drag queens. Most hardcore man-hating lesbians find drag queens more offensive than a mere white cis-gendered guy.

That's because most drag queens are doing it to mock women and legitimately transexual people. It's a hate crime being forced down the throats of the victims. While the abusers use "acceptance" to both shield and allow them to continue their hateful actions.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: bat on October 16, 2020, 01:10:59 pm
I was asked to jump in on a public game last night in a bar. It was 5e. I am an old guy (51), grizzled, 6'4", most people think I am a viking or really into the show/lifestyle. I sat next to a nice young gay man, we all helped a lady in her 60s that was curious about gaming. Everyone had fun. It was really that easy. I was asked to DM but had a 5 minute chat with the guy that wanted to and he did a great job. I will say it again, EVERYONE HAD FUN. Gaming doesn't have to be about throwing in adjectives and telling people they cannot play your game, to me, it should be about setting aside our differences and having fun.

When I started gaming I was an outcast, not by choice. Now people that make themselves stand out want to dictate who can or cannot play games instead of having the courage to just be decent to others.

And technically, in the disclaimer for their game they make it unplayable by everyone because technically,  everyone IS a bigot: big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

Are they not intolerant of other people's beliefs by labeling and dismissing people?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 16, 2020, 01:19:15 pm

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/030/941/902/de3b2b4a59f48dfdfbcd683706af56ac_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1602270516&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=75043917cae23e0dfd5e467481e14623)

  Is it just me, or do the rightmost and third-from-the-right figures look like they come from a completely different game/setting than the rest?

They all look like someone hit the random button in an MMO with a broken character creator. And none of them seem to have a coherent world theme or style other than “Oh, so random” CalArts fugly as fuck nonsense. Only the first two, right to left, look like they belong in the same setting, then the two in the middle belong together in another setting, then everyone else has their own completely different style.

It’s an incoherent assault on the visual senses.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 16, 2020, 02:11:44 pm
Welp, first of all, these iconic characters for the game all look like drag queens. Most hardcore man-hating lesbians find drag queens more offensive than a mere white cis-gendered guy.

That's because most drag queens are doing it to mock women and legitimately transexual people. It's a hate crime being forced down the throats of the victims. While the abusers use "acceptance" to both shield and allow them to continue their hateful actions.

This is mocking those same women and "legitimately transexual people", you know?

I'd also love to see you draw the line between "legitimately transexual people" and "illegitimately transexual people". What is the difference?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 02:34:24 pm
I'd also love to see you draw the line between "legitimately transexual people" and "illegitimately transexual people". What is the difference?

The line I draw is by medical diagnosis.

There is a huge difference between people who have an actual diagnosed illness, and those who are dressing up to mock them. Would you tolerate someone mocking somebody for getting or having cancer? I don't think you would. I don't think any person with an ounce of sanity would.

Why would a cancer patient have to welcome and encourage some idiot who is belittling their misery? It's the same thing. It's forcing people with a legit medical condition to welcome and endure mockery of tmemselves and said condition. Yet it happens every single day in the trans community because of drag queens. They are flat out torturing people who are suffering a life-threatening illness for their own sick and sadistic amusement. While FORCING those people they are victimizing to accept their presence.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 02:35:31 pm
It is kind of funny how offended some of you guys get.

I mean, fat lesbians just want to have fun and roll dice, too. It isn't like they're forcing you to play this game.

Its not the subject matter. Its the how and the who of its presentation as a SJW trainer. Ditch that and its no more offensive than anything BTRC ever made. EG: Someone somewhere will be offended by something that no one else on earth is offended by. Then demand and/or convince others to be offended too.

The reactions here and elsewhere are a byproduct of having to deal with this sort of stupid over and over and over.

Yeah, I get it. It is annoying. But the response from some is a bit over the top, as if they're being forced into gender re-assignment surgery.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 02:39:26 pm
I'd also love to see you draw the line between "legitimately transexual people" and "illegitimately transexual people". What is the difference?

The line I draw is by medical diagnosis.

There is a huge difference between people who have an actual diagnosed illness, and those who are dressing up to mock them. Would you tolerate someone mocking somebody for getting or having cancer? I don't think you would. I don't think any person with an ounce of sanity would.

Why would a cancer patient have to welcome and encourage some idiot who is belittling their misery? It's the same thing. It's forcing people with a legit medical condition to welcome and endure mockery of tmemselves and said condition. Yet it happens every single day in the trans community because of drag queens. They are flat out torturing people who are suffering a life-threatening illness for their own sick and sadistic amusement..

Wait, what is the "actual diagnosed illness?" Transexualism is not an illness.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 02:44:38 pm
Greetings!

Indeed. They are all gay and Trans men, a few weird gender-fluid, polyamorous women, and in general, rainbow freaks.

They are all So fabulous! ::)

These people are the tip of the spear of much of the insane Marxism and "Intersectionality" BS that are invading our society and hobby and seeking to transform and change everything through the "glorious revolution".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This borders on Trumpist xenophobia.

First of all, these folks are part of our society - they aren't invading. And in this case, they are gamers. Do you have an issue with them making games that they want to play?

Secondly, it is one thing to erase RPG history by making Oriental Adventures unavailable or drastically altering canonical lore. In my mind, that is the type of "wokism" that is deleterious to the hobby. But lesbians producing a lesbian RPG? Who cares? You don't have to play it.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 16, 2020, 02:45:48 pm
I'd also love to see you draw the line between "legitimately transexual people" and "illegitimately transexual people". What is the difference?

The line I draw is by medical diagnosis.

There is a huge difference between people who have an actual diagnosed illness, and those who are dressing up to mock them. Would you tolerate someone mocking somebody for getting or having cancer? I don't think you would. I don't think any person with an ounce of sanity would.

Why would a cancer patient have to welcome and encourage some idiot who is belittling their misery? It's the same thing. It's forcing people with a legit medical condition to welcome and endure mockery of tmemselves and said condition. Yet it happens every single day in the trans community because of drag queens. They are flat out torturing people who are suffering a life-threatening illness for their own sick and sadistic amusement. While FORCING those people they are victimizing to accept their presence.

Drag Queens have nothing to do with mocking trans people. Not even everyone in the SJW nut job community believes that, and a subset of them are the few people that do. Its just an artistic form of self expression involving the subversion of gender roles and stuff like that.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 02:47:54 pm
Wait, what is the "actual diagnosed illness?" Transexualism is not an illness.

Gender Dysphoria.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 02:56:15 pm
Wait, what is the "actual diagnosed illness?" Transexualism is not an illness.

Gender Dysphoria.

It is no longer considered an illness, at least by most Western psychiatric and medical organizations.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:01:06 pm
Drag Queens have nothing to do with mocking trans people. Not even everyone in the SJW nut job community believes that, and a subset of them are the few people that do. Its just an artistic form of self expression involving the subversion of gender roles and stuff like that.

My life experience trumps your denial.

My "father" was a drag queen who stole my mom's clothes to sneak out at night when I was a young child to get his jollies. He did so out of hate and jealousy toward my mother. And would scoff at and mock anyone transsexual. He was and still is evil incarnate.

He was getting his kicks one moment, torturing and abusing a sick child the next moment, and raping my mother at the next. So you better believe, I know the face of hate.

I suffered 48 years of PTSD because of that monster. Nonstop fear. And that's no way for anyone to live. 48 years of being trapped in the moment of a small young child frozen in terror, while the monster that is the cause looms over them.

I didn't have a father. My boogeyman was very real.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:03:26 pm
It is no longer considered an illness, at least by most Western psychiatric and medical organizations.

That is straight up untrue. You are going to need to produce evidence of that claim.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: bat on October 16, 2020, 03:09:00 pm
I guess this project begs one question : Why is it necessary?
Can't anyone just homebrew any setting? I remember playing D&D with gay guys, lesbians and really anyone who wanted to play back in the late 80s/early 90s. Nobody had to tell us how to play, sexuality was not emphasized and the rules were approached as a set of general guidelines to build upon.

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 03:13:43 pm
I guess this project begs one question : Why is it necessary?
Can't anyone just homebrew any setting? I remember playing D&D with gay guys, lesbians and really anyone who wanted to play back in the late 80s/early 90s. Nobody had to tell us how to play, sexuality was not emphasized and the rules were approached as a set of general guidelines to build upon.

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

If someone wants to make it and it is being supported through funding, then obviously there is demand for it - even if on a small scale. I don't see them dictating to anyone that they have to play this.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:17:16 pm
I guess this project begs one question : Why is it necessary?
Can't anyone just homebrew any setting? I remember playing D&D with gay guys, lesbians and really anyone who wanted to play back in the late 80s/early 90s. Nobody had to tell us how to play, sexuality was not emphasized and the rules were approached as a set of general guidelines to build upon.

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

I don't think it is necessary. I think it's just an attention grabbing stunt done in very poor taste. The fact we are even talking about it gives it more attention than it truly deserves.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 16, 2020, 03:19:48 pm
Drag Queens have nothing to do with mocking trans people. Not even everyone in the SJW nut job community believes that, and a subset of them are the few people that do. Its just an artistic form of self expression involving the subversion of gender roles and stuff like that.

My life experience trumps your denial.

My "father" was a drag queen who stole my mom's clothes to sneak out at night when I was a young child to get his jollies. He did so out of hate and jealousy toward my mother. And would scoff at and mock anyone transsexual. He was and still is evil incarnate.

He was getting his kicks one moment, torturing and abusing a sick child the next moment, and raping my mother at the next. So you better believe, I know the face of hate.

I suffered 48 years of PTSD because of that monster. Nonstop fear. And that's no way for anyone to live.

Your edge-case anecdotal experience and personal tragedies do not define reality for the rest of the world that exists outside of them. Just because your father was an asshole that happened to do drag work for specific reasons and hated transpeople that does not mean that therefore all drag queens in general are transphobes doing it because they hate their wives and do drag work specifically to mock transpeople.

PS: Also Gender Dysphoria really isn't considered an mental illness anymore by many western medical and psychiatric organizations, but it is a contentious subject, and IMO strictly for political reasons given that GD is a debilitating mental condition and transitioning is the treatment prescribed to treat that condition, which by definition, is what a mental illness is. Otherwise what's the treatment for?

But, anyways this is getting way off-topic and has nothing to do with the actual RPG being discussed.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 03:21:22 pm
It is no longer considered an illness, at least by most Western psychiatric and medical organizations.

That is straight up untrue. You are going to need to produce evidence of that claim.

The info is out there. The DSM-IV called it "gender identity disorder" but it has been re-named "gender dysphoria" in the DSM V, because it is no longer seen as a disorder (or illness).

Now whether or not you or I consider it a disorder, illness, condition, etc, is beside the point. It really comes down to ideological framing.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:27:22 pm

PS: Also Gender Dysphoria really isn't considered an mental illness anymore by many western medical and psychiatric organizations, but it is a contentious subject, and IMO strictly for political reasons given that GD is a debilitating mental condition and transitioning is the treatment prescribed to treat that condition, which by definition, is what a mental illness is. Otherwise what's the treatment for?

You need to produce proof supporting that assertation. Otherwise i'm going to dismiss it as someone randomly talking out of their ass.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:30:59 pm
The info is out there. The DSM-IV called it "gender identity disorder" but it has been re-named "gender dysphoria" in the DSM V, because it is no longer seen as a disorder (or illness).

Now whether or not you or I consider it a disorder, illness, condition, etc, is beside the point. It really comes down to ideological framing.

Sorry. I'm not going to just take your word for it.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Melan on October 16, 2020, 03:31:47 pm
Wait, what is the "actual diagnosed illness?" Transexualism is not an illness.
Gender Dysphoria.
It is no longer considered an illness, at least by most Western psychiatric and medical organizations.
It might or might not be an illness. Unfortunately, we will not know in the near future, because the present consensus is enforced under threats of expulsion from the medical community, and having one's academic/medical career trashed and reputation dragged through the mud. It is, put simply, dogma.

Which is unfortunate, because otherwise, medical science might discover the root cause(s), and devise an effective treatment instead of offering a horrendously ineffective one that might actually make things worse for many of its subjects.

Darin Kelley: Damn. Really sorry to hear that.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 03:34:14 pm
Drag Queens have nothing to do with mocking trans people. Not even everyone in the SJW nut job community believes that, and a subset of them are the few people that do. Its just an artistic form of self expression involving the subversion of gender roles and stuff like that.

My life experience trumps your denial.

My "father" was a drag queen who stole my mom's clothes to sneak out at night when I was a young child to get his jollies. He did so out of hate and jealousy toward my mother. And would scoff at and mock anyone transsexual. He was and still is evil incarnate.

He was getting his kicks one moment, torturing and abusing a sick child the next moment, and raping my mother at the next. So you better believe, I know the face of hate.

I suffered 48 years of PTSD because of that monster. Nonstop fear. And that's no way for anyone to live. 48 years of being trapped in the moment of a small young child frozen in terror, while the monster that is the cause looms over them.

I didn't have a father. My boogeyman was very real.

This sucks, and I'm really sorry that you had/have to experience this.

But one anecdote shouldn't define an entire category of people. I imagine that there are many reasons drag queens are drag queens, but my guess is that the overwhelming majority simply like dressing up as women. It is performance art.

That said, if that is your primary and only association with a certain type of person, it is understandable why you would feel that way - at least on a purely emotional level. I once worked with a woman who had been gang-raped by several black men. She knew intellectually that most black men were not rapists, but she still had a physical response when she saw one. That was 25 years ago...I'm hoping that she found a way to heal this trauma wound, but have no idea.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 03:49:20 pm
It might or might not be an illness. Unfortunately, we will not know in the near future, because the present consensus is enforced under threats of expulsion from the medical community, and having one's academic/medical career trashed and reputation dragged through the mud. It is, put simply, dogma.

Which is unfortunate, because otherwise, medical science might discover the root cause(s), and devise an effective treatment instead of offering a horrendously ineffective one that might actually make things worse for many of its subjects.

I don't disagree. Things have a tendency to balance out and evolve over time, and I think as our society becomes more accepting of gender variances, it may be that drastic measures like gender re-assignment surgery will lessen and other avenues become more prominent. A major aspect of the present consensus is the recognition that part of the "problem" is lack of societal acceptance; in other words, the feelings of gender dysphoria are fueled by cultural norms around gender, masculinity and femininity, etc. So I see re-defining the "disorder" as "dysphoria" is a step towards that greater acceptance, and thus less aggressive "treatments."

Not to mention that as medical and biological technology continues to develop, we all may have much greater freedom to create the body we desire - be it different genitalia, different colored eyes, or wings and a tail.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 03:54:29 pm
"Oh get over it" shows a profound ignorance of what PTSD does to a person by the one who says it. It's not something a person can just choose to "get over". The afflicted need to be able to cope with it in their own way, otherwise it's never going to stop. They need to find one aspect in their life that makes them feel safe again. And anyone who thinks it is easy is just being willfully ignorant.

People heal on their own time. And not to someone else's convenience.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 16, 2020, 04:02:06 pm

PS: Also Gender Dysphoria really isn't considered an mental illness anymore by many western medical and psychiatric organizations, but it is a contentious subject, and IMO strictly for political reasons given that GD is a debilitating mental condition and transitioning is the treatment prescribed to treat that condition, which by definition, is what a mental illness is. Otherwise what's the treatment for?

You need to produce proof supporting that assertation. Otherwise i'm going to dismiss it as someone randomly talking out of their ass.

From the NHS website... (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/)

Quote
Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but some people may develop mental health problems because of gender dysphoria.

Transgender no longer recognised as 'disorder' by WHO (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-48448804)

Quote
Dr Lale Say, a reproductive health expert at the World Health Organization, said: "It was taken out from mental health disorders because we had a better understanding that this was not actually a mental health condition, and leaving it there was causing stigma.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 16, 2020, 04:03:02 pm
"Oh get over it" shows a profound ignorance of what PTSD does to a person by the one who says it. It's not something a person can just choose to "get over". The afflicted need to be able to cope with it in their own way, otherwise it's never going to stop. They need to find one aspect in their life that makes them feel safe again. And anyone who thinks it is easy is just being willfully ignorant.

People heal on their own time. And not to someone else's convenience.

I didn't say "get over it." In fact, I made absolutely no recommendations on how you should deal with your trauma, because I am very aware that trauma is extremely difficult to heal, and of course it is none of my business.

What I did say is that your experience with your father doesn't define all drag queens.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 16, 2020, 04:03:57 pm
Greetings!

I think they are stupid ideological demagogues that have drank from the Marxist Kool-Aid. This "game" is much more of an ideological "vehicle" than a genuine game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: bat on October 16, 2020, 04:08:46 pm
I guess this project begs one question : Why is it necessary?
Can't anyone just homebrew any setting? I remember playing D&D with gay guys, lesbians and really anyone who wanted to play back in the late 80s/early 90s. Nobody had to tell us how to play, sexuality was not emphasized and the rules were approached as a set of general guidelines to build upon.

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

I don't think it is necessary. I think it's just an attention grabbing stunt done in very poor taste. The fact we are even talking about it gives it more attention than it truly deserves.

 This is exactly my view. Is there a "demand" for this? Absolutely not because unless you have the creativity of a rock you can D-I-Y this sort of thing and I'm sure it has already been done dozens of times over the years. Just people seeking attention that have a difficult time expressing themselves without looking like a runaway train. Nobody cares how you run your setting, just run the game that you want to, it affects nobody outside of your table unless you make a spectacle of yourself. Just play the game with the parameters that everyone at the table is comfortable with in an environment where everyone can have fun.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 16, 2020, 04:23:42 pm
Indeed. They are all gay and Trans men

Oh, that type of sword lesbian.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 16, 2020, 04:26:57 pm
This is exactly my view. Is there a "demand" for this? Absolutely not because unless you have the creativity of a rock you can D-I-Y this sort of thing and I'm sure it has already been done dozens of times over the years. Just people seeking attention that have a difficult time expressing themselves without looking like a runaway train. Nobody cares how you run your setting, just run the game that you want to, it affects nobody outside of your table unless you make a spectacle of yourself. Just play the game with the parameters that everyone at the table is comfortable with in an environment where everyone can have fun.

In the science fantasy campaign I used to be a part of, I played a character that was of the succubus/incubus archetype. And she had her own view on sexuality. Which was quite fluid. Being a shapechanger, she could be any gender she wanted. Or none at all. And she was married to another of the same species. Who also preferred a female form as her default.

When playing this character, I looked at what she brought to the game. Which was a considerable skill set. She was completely the expert in her fields. And relied upon by the rest of the group because of it.

I admit I downplayed her sexual aspects for the most part. Only bringing them out when they added a little color and fun to the game. I didn't want to overdo it. Didn't want it just done for a cheap thrill. Because the character had far more mental and emotional depth to it than what people saw on the surface.

But my point is? This can be done in any game with a broad enough ruleset and character options. You don't need a special branded game to do any of this. Just an imagination and good player skills.

The game that is the subject of this thread doesn't bring anything special to the table that couldn't be already done with existing games. All it's doing is to exploit controversy to generate sales. Which honestly? I'd rather someone show me what makes a game product special. Rather than hype.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 16, 2020, 04:59:24 pm
Greetings!

I think they are stupid ideological demagogues that have drank from the Marxist Kool-Aid. This "game" is much more of an ideological "vehicle" than a genuine game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is precisely what the game seems to be, going by the Kickstarter promotion, which is loaded with ideologically coded language about “safety” and specifically brings up TERFs and “Fascists”, as well as “racial liberation” (totally relevant to lesbianism), “queer liberation” and “intersectional feminism” (the root of all evil).

I guess this project begs one question : Why is it necessary?
Can't anyone just homebrew any setting? I remember playing D&D with gay guys, lesbians and really anyone who wanted to play back in the late 80s/early 90s. Nobody had to tell us how to play, sexuality was not emphasized and the rules were approached as a set of general guidelines to build upon.

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

I don't think it is necessary. I think it's just an attention grabbing stunt done in very poor taste. The fact we are even talking about it gives it more attention than it truly deserves.

 This is exactly my view. Is there a "demand" for this? Absolutely not because unless you have the creativity of a rock you can D-I-Y this sort of thing and I'm sure it has already been done dozens of times over the years. Just people seeking attention that have a difficult time expressing themselves without looking like a runaway train. Nobody cares how you run your setting, just run the game that you want to, it affects nobody outside of your table unless you make a spectacle of yourself. Just play the game with the parameters that everyone at the table is comfortable with in an environment where everyone can have fun.

Unfortunately the ship has sailed on whether there is “demand” (at least technically) for this product, given that it was fully funded within hours and going more than $72k strong currently.

Question is, will it actually be played? Were people really clamoring for this and the silly attention craving play style that it promotes (The game is apparently about “feelings”, forging connections and getting to “kiss” your adversaries)? Or are people just ponying money strictly for ideological reasons to pwn the “fascists”?

Somehow I suspect it’s the latter.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 16, 2020, 05:02:59 pm
Or are people just ponying money strictly for ideological reasons to pwn the “fascists”?

A fool and his money are soon parted.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ponta1010 on October 16, 2020, 05:08:06 pm
I guess this project begs one question : Why is it necessary?
Can't anyone just homebrew any setting?

Will challenge this statement a bit. If it's done correctly it makes that type of game easier.
By your base argument Ebberon, Forgotten Realms, Chivalry & Sorcery, Runequest etc. are all possible using OD&D.

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

I find this observation a lot more interesting. What's happened to the base premise that anyone can play? This group/movement seems to have become far more militant/demanding in recent times. Not a good look for RPGing in general.

Am wondering how Evil Hat's apparent strategy of focussing on a particular segment of the gaming market will play out. Is that segment big enough to sustain it, or will its association with that market mean a drop in revenue from other lines. ie is Fate Core to become or already its generic LGBTQI RPG?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Jaeger on October 16, 2020, 05:10:23 pm
The info is out there. The DSM-IV called it "gender identity disorder" but it has been re-named "gender dysphoria" in the DSM V, because it is no longer seen as a disorder (or illness).

Now whether or not you or I consider it a disorder, illness, condition, etc, is beside the point. It really comes down to ideological framing.

Certainly some of the "ideological framing" going on is this post. And Visionstorm's attempt to cite "sources" that are not the APA, and do not reference the DSM that you cite as "proof".

You point out the name change from "identity disorder" to "dysphoria" in the DSM as "proof" that it is "no longer seen as a disorder (or illness)."

You conveniently do not explain what the DSM is, or is an abbreviation of. Allow me to help:

DSM = Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders = It's a mental disorder.

The APA (American Psychiatric Association) has re-named many other listings in the DSM in the past for clarity in diagnosis several times. Note that Homosexuality is not listed at all in the DSM

IMHO it does not take a genius to see that the change from "disorder" to "dysphoria" was done for political reasons so that APA will take less heat from trans activists who are too lazy to read or look up definitions in a dictionary. If you actually bother to compare the listings in DSM-IV-TR and the new DSM-V; you will find that the actual definitions of the "disorder/dysphoria" are still identical. (With more explanatory wording in the DSM-V about diagnosis).

Because I can: Listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders = It's a mental disorder. Not that hard guys.

Yes, the NHS and WHO both contradict the APA. (APA = the group of dedicated actual psychiatrists.)

News Flash! Woke activists with power to set policy are willing to lie and be disingenuous to push their agenda.

In other news: Water is Wet.

.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Habitual Gamer on October 16, 2020, 05:21:37 pm
But my point is? This can be done in any game with a broad enough ruleset and character options. You don't need a special branded game to do any of this. Just an imagination and good player skills.

The game that is the subject of this thread doesn't bring anything special to the table that couldn't be already done with existing games. All it's doing is to exploit controversy to generate sales. Which honestly? I'd rather someone show me what makes a game product special. Rather than hype.

Look at the bright side: the conservative right will point to it as "grooming" while the SJWs on the Left (who aren't getting a paycheck from this) will shriek about how it's exploitative and reduces lesbianism to something silly and/or monstrous.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for Evil Hat to try releasing some new PBTA game about playing blaxploitation stories.  Everything from "Guy From Harlem" to "Shaft".  But filtered through a SoCal animation style to make it acceptable to the target audience.  Because Black Lives Matter (and making money from SJW suckers matters even more).  "But I don't need a new game system just to play a black character!"  You don't need more than one system to play an elf either, but here we are.

(on a side note: I'm aware that Spirit of 77 exists.  Fuse it with Damnation Decade by Green Ronin, and you have a game!)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 16, 2020, 05:31:07 pm
I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

I agree with your statement here, but people introduced to RPGs through Organized Play do exactly that behavior in compulsory dictating what is considered "Officially" fun in gaming.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 16, 2020, 05:32:51 pm
I have no issues with this. They are not hiding anything. They are marketing directly to their audience and stating upfront who they want as their customers, and who they do not as their customers. It's a specifically niche product, and it seems they are on pace to sell over $100,000 worth of it in their Kickstarter in true capitalist fashion.

Why is this an issue?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ponta1010 on October 16, 2020, 05:48:20 pm
Why is this an issue?

I’ve thought about this for a bit, as I’ve been surprised how riled certain elements of the Kickstarter have made me. For me personally, when I started in this hobby I was the geek or whatever, and really enjoyed finding a hobby where I felt I belonged.

40 years on and someone’s trying to exclude me.

Edited to add: it’s not my decision anymore that no this product doesn’t interest me, it’s no we don’t want you.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 16, 2020, 07:06:20 pm
That's OK, because if you look at the list of makers mentioned on the KS campaign page, or even the Twitter chatter surrounding the game, you will notice something really, really curious:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/476326897370791947/766581299795984404/thirsty_backers.png)

I will let you discover what that is.  ;)

*Puzzled look* I can't imagine what you mean...

(https://brewminate.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Walsh01-250x250.jpg)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 16, 2020, 07:11:29 pm
Greetings!

Indeed. They are all gay and Trans men, a few weird gender-fluid, polyamorous women, and in general, rainbow freaks.

A quick Google reveals that Kit Walsh isn't just transgender or similar - apparently he/she is transracial too!

http://bloggingwhilebrown.com/speakers-2015

"Blogging while brown"?  ???

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/50e10278e4b0c2f4976ab3dc/1431877718664-SNCBBAG0JAZUYG7LE6UX/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kP06O0_IHyRXSOOiqwgWaApZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWEtT5uBSRWt4vQZAgTJucoTqqXjS3CfNDSuuf31e0tVEHLRkg2cosQUGLeQ33UzXdgIxPDaVwE3LlEpL74qP4JVW4jCyXLPvvdR287iymYt8/image-asset.jpeg?format=300w)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Chris24601 on October 16, 2020, 07:12:53 pm
One the one hand, unsurprising SJW hatred for anything remotely normal... and also not even proficient enough to build a setting appropriate ruleset... there’s a reason all this stuff turns up under OGL borderline storygame systems like PbtA.

... on the other hand I really have to give them props for getting self-loathing white male SJWs to throw their money at them in order to assuage their feelings of guilt and reassurance that they aren’t the racist fascists their hearts tell them they are.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 16, 2020, 07:24:45 pm
Why is this an issue?

I’ve thought about this for a bit, as I’ve been surprised how riled certain elements of the Kickstarter have made me. For me personally, when I started in this hobby I was the geek or whatever, and really enjoyed finding a hobby where I felt I belonged.

40 years on and someone’s trying to exclude me.

Edited to add: it’s not my decision anymore that no this product doesn’t interest me, it’s no we don’t want you.

I think all the RPG products made have made some people feel excluded, even when exclusion was not intended and even when that feeling was not universal for people like them.

I mean let's face it, some people are geeks and wanted to play sci-fi games and all their friends liked fantasy and wanted to play D&D fantasy and so they felt excluded.

Which I am sure was a bummer. In fact, I think I was that kid for a while. And I had TWO sci-fi themed games I liked (Star Frontiers and Traveller) and none of my friends would play them with me. They were D&D fans who, if I twisted their arms, would be willing to play Marvel Super Heroes, but that was it.

And I bet if we had played that sci-fi game, one of the fantasy geeks would have felt excluded.

But this game? Yes, it's a niche product for a specific audience which excludes a lot of people. And if your gaming group is way into Thirsty Sword Lesbians and you are not, then you will feel excluded just like I did as a sci-fi geek and my friends just wanted to play fantasy.

I guess that's the benefit of living in a society where it is easier to find groups that play the kinds of games you prefer, now. It's still hard to find some types of games in some places, but at least it's easier now than when we were kids.

And I feel confident if this isn't your game (and I don't think it's my game either) then rest assured I don't think this game is going to take the RPG world by storm and misplace sci-fi and fantasy and horror RPGs out there. Odds of finding a Thirsty Sword Lesbian game will still remain a lot lower than finding a D&D game I suspect.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Innocent Smith on October 16, 2020, 08:53:39 pm
I came for the lesbians and stayed for the “WTF is this SJW shit?”

Then the game for you is Car Lesbians. It has cars. It has lesbians. It has literally nothing else. Best RPG ever.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 16, 2020, 10:44:59 pm
I have no issues with this. They are not hiding anything. They are marketing directly to their audience and stating upfront who they want as their customers, and who they do not as their customers. It's a specifically niche product, and it seems they are on pace to sell over $100,000 worth of it in their Kickstarter in true capitalist fashion.

Why is this an issue?

My issue with it is simple, these are the kind of people that froth at the mouth for a chance to whip up the mob and cancel someone for wrong think. I find them and their ideologies ridiculous and not worthy of respect. So in short, fuck'em.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 17, 2020, 12:20:38 am
I have no issues with this. They are not hiding anything. They are marketing directly to their audience and stating upfront who they want as their customers, and who they do not as their customers. It's a specifically niche product, and it seems they are on pace to sell over $100,000 worth of it in their Kickstarter in true capitalist fashion.

Why is this an issue?

My issue with it is simple, these are the kind of people that froth at the mouth for a chance to whip up the mob and cancel someone for wrong think. I find them and their ideologies ridiculous and not worthy of respect. So in short, fuck'em.

OK, but they are not cancelling anyone, and not asking for your respect, with this thing. I am sure they dislike my ideologies and yours as much as you or I dislike theirs. So, what's the issue? They're just selling some stuff to people who like their stuff, and not to people who do not like their stuff. Isn't that what you'd prefer they do with their time, rather than cancel people and demand respect from those who do not respect them?

I mean, they're entitled to their interests as much as you and I, right? Them liking stuff I do not like is not different than my liking stuff they do not like. As the saying goes, their right to swing their arm ends when it connects with my body - and with this, their arm isn't coming anywhere near my body. So live and let live. If this is the stuff they dig, who am I to judge it badwrongfun?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 17, 2020, 12:50:53 am
I have no issues with this. They are not hiding anything. They are marketing directly to their audience and stating upfront who they want as their customers, and who they do not as their customers. It's a specifically niche product, and it seems they are on pace to sell over $100,000 worth of it in their Kickstarter in true capitalist fashion.

Why is this an issue?

My issue with it is simple, these are the kind of people that froth at the mouth for a chance to whip up the mob and cancel someone for wrong think. I find them and their ideologies ridiculous and not worthy of respect. So in short, fuck'em.

OK, but they are not cancelling anyone, and not asking for your respect, with this thing. I am sure they dislike my ideologies and yours as much as you or I dislike theirs. So, what's the issue? They're just selling some stuff to people who like their stuff, and not to people who do not like their stuff. Isn't that what you'd prefer they do with their time, rather than cancel people and demand respect from those who do not respect them?

I mean, they're entitled to their interests as much as you and I, right? Them liking stuff I do not like is not different than my liking stuff they do not like. As the saying goes, their right to swing their arm ends when it connects with my body - and with this, their arm isn't coming anywhere near my body. So live and let live. If this is the stuff they dig, who am I to judge it badwrongfun?

Personally I don't really have any issue with the content of the game, people should play whatever games they enjoy. I'm not saying they're having badwrongfun. My issue is the kind of people behind this game are the kind of people that would not extend the same live and let live approach to you. The very second you cross a perceived line they would howl for you to be driven out of "gaming".

The reasons these types have so much success in forcing corporations, groups, communities, etc to bend the knee is because they are playing a zero sum game. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck'em, I hope their game sucks and I intend to mock them at every possible turn. You'll tolerate these people right up until your tolerance makes them the driving force behind industry decisions and gaming culture.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 17, 2020, 04:05:53 am
Why is this an issue?

Because it is a trap and this is bait.

Take a look at the bio of Kit Walsh, attorney of the EFF and creator of Thirsty Sword Lesbians.

https://www.eff.org/about/staff/kit-walsh

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Dimitrios on October 17, 2020, 09:52:07 am
I mean, they're entitled to their interests as much as you and I, right? Them liking stuff I do not like is not different than my liking stuff they do not like. As the saying goes, their right to swing their arm ends when it connects with my body - and with this, their arm isn't coming anywhere near my body. So live and let live. If this is the stuff they dig, who am I to judge it badwrongfun?

I don't think anyone has questioned Evil Hat's right to make and market games however they want. What people have done is express their opinion that EH are being jerks in this particular case, and I agree.

Talking up how cool your game is and why it's fun is how people who are genuinely interested in rpgs market their games. Listing all the groups that are not welcome, on the other hand, is what you do when you just want to exploit toxic culture wars bullshit in order make a fast buck. Doing that is Evil Hat's right, and it sounds like they're succeeding.

But some of us think that the world would be a better place with less toxic culture wars bullshit contaminating everything, and EH seems to be dedicated to encouraging more. Again, their right, but people have a right to say that it's a lousy way to act.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 17, 2020, 09:53:32 am
Personally I don't really have any issue with the content of the game, people should play whatever games they enjoy. I'm not saying they're having badwrongfun. My issue is the kind of people behind this game are the kind of people that would not extend the same live and let live approach to you. The very second you cross a perceived line they would howl for you to be driven out of "gaming".

Agreed and seconded and sums up the way I feel.

They can make the most open and woke rpg in the world while I would have no interest in it, they are free to run or play it. Except they would refuse to give myself and others the same courtesy and would want to ban the rpgs I like and myself from the hobby. For not bending the knee or being woke enough. Respect is earned not given and one has to also give it in turn to others. For the woke crowd I would be called ableist simply because I refuse to allow the modern equivalents of wheelchairs in gaming. Or that the person wanting to play the character with a disability has to play both the flaws and benefits of having a wheelchair.

The reasons these types have so much success in forcing corporations, groups, communities, etc to bend the knee is because they are playing a zero sum game. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck'em, I hope their game sucks and I intend to mock them at every possible turn. You'll tolerate these people right up until your tolerance makes them the driving force behind industry decisions and gaming culture.


What goes around comes around as almost all the companies that bent the knee and/or became woke either faced massive public backlash or worse less sales. I also agree fuck them as they would not do the same for me.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 17, 2020, 10:26:34 am
I have no issues with this. They are not hiding anything. They are marketing directly to their audience and stating upfront who they want as their customers, and who they do not as their customers. It's a specifically niche product, and it seems they are on pace to sell over $100,000 worth of it in their Kickstarter in true capitalist fashion.

Why is this an issue?

My issue with it is simple, these are the kind of people that froth at the mouth for a chance to whip up the mob and cancel someone for wrong think. I find them and their ideologies ridiculous and not worthy of respect. So in short, fuck'em.

OK, but they are not cancelling anyone, and not asking for your respect, with this thing. I am sure they dislike my ideologies and yours as much as you or I dislike theirs. So, what's the issue? They're just selling some stuff to people who like their stuff, and not to people who do not like their stuff. Isn't that what you'd prefer they do with their time, rather than cancel people and demand respect from those who do not respect them?

I mean, they're entitled to their interests as much as you and I, right? Them liking stuff I do not like is not different than my liking stuff they do not like. As the saying goes, their right to swing their arm ends when it connects with my body - and with this, their arm isn't coming anywhere near my body. So live and let live. If this is the stuff they dig, who am I to judge it badwrongfun?

OK, but no one here is cancelling anyone. We're just voicing our dislike for this product and criticizing its marketing, art and concept, as well as the creator's ideology, which they wear on their sleeve and voice right on the game's Kickstarter page, along with some pointed words towards anyone who feels differently. So what's the issue?

We're just saying some stuff to people who agree with our stuff in a forum about discussing stuff (mainly tabletop RPGs, which this discussion is about), where people who disagree with our stuff are free to comment. Isn't that what you'd prefer we do with our time, rather than cancel their game or brigade their Kickstarter page and demand respect from those who do not respect us and call us fascists?

We're not telling them to carter to us or demanding that they adjust their product to fit our whims or sensibilities. Or claiming that they don't have a right to game how they like or create the games that they want. I mean, we're entitled to our interests and our views as much as you and them, right? Us criticizing their stuff is no different than they calling us fascists (actually it kinda is, but not by much). So live and let live. If this is the stuff we dig, who are you to judge it badwrongfun?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 17, 2020, 10:41:25 am
Honestly VS to me at least it is starting to come off as an attempt at censorship. Either we endorse the product fully or we are bad people for daring to criticize said product. Apparently one can't have an opposing point of view. They are allowed to tell us we are terrible people for criticizing the product. Yet we are not entitled to do the opposite. As I said it comes down to not being given the same courtesy.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 17, 2020, 12:10:49 pm


Personally I don't really have any issue with the content of the game, people should play whatever games they enjoy. I'm not saying they're having badwrongfun. My issue is the kind of people behind this game are the kind of people that would not extend the same live and let live approach to you. The very second you cross a perceived line they would howl for you to be driven out of "gaming".

But THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT WITH THIS PRODUCT. You're basically saying "bad people doing...something which does not involve them being bad people."

If these bad people were having a cookout, would you object? If they were just walking down the street, would you object? Are you just saying anything they do in life is objectionable because they are bad people? WTF does your complaint about "they would be bad to me" have to do with this product they're selling which does not involve them being bad to you or anyone?

Quote
The reasons these types have so much success in forcing corporations, groups, communities, etc to bend the knee is because they are playing a zero sum game. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck'em, I hope their game sucks and I intend to mock them at every possible turn. You'll tolerate these people right up until your tolerance makes them the driving force behind industry decisions and gaming culture.

But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product. I mean of course you are free to mock them - but I fail to see what they're doing by selling this product which is so objectionable. They're not engaging in the activity you find objectionable, but you're expending a lot of energy objecting to their existence anyway for...doing something you don't appear to object to?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 17, 2020, 12:14:44 pm
Honestly VS to me at least it is starting to come off as an attempt at censorship. Either we endorse the product fully or we are bad people for daring to criticize said product. Apparently one can't have an opposing point of view. They are allowed to tell us we are terrible people for criticizing the product. Yet we are not entitled to do the opposite. As I said it comes down to not being given the same courtesy.

Where are they telling you that you cannot criticize their product? Where are they doing ANY of what you just described concerning this product?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 17, 2020, 12:32:35 pm
But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product.

Neither are the critics here. But we know that Evil Hat support Cancelling, and the people you're attacking here don't.

BTW do you think it's ok to refer to "Fascists & TERFs" in promotional material for a game? Or is it ok to criticise that? Personally I find it repulsive, so by extension I find the people who talk and think like that repulsive.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mercurius on October 17, 2020, 12:59:38 pm
The info is out there. The DSM-IV called it "gender identity disorder" but it has been re-named "gender dysphoria" in the DSM V, because it is no longer seen as a disorder (or illness).

Now whether or not you or I consider it a disorder, illness, condition, etc, is beside the point. It really comes down to ideological framing.

Certainly some of the "ideological framing" going on is this post. And Visionstorm's attempt to cite "sources" that are not the APA, and do not reference the DSM that you cite as "proof".

You point out the name change from "identity disorder" to "dysphoria" in the DSM as "proof" that it is "no longer seen as a disorder (or illness)."

You conveniently do not explain what the DSM is, or is an abbreviation of. Allow me to help:

DSM = Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders = It's a mental disorder.

The APA (American Psychiatric Association) has re-named many other listings in the DSM in the past for clarity in diagnosis several times. Note that Homosexuality is not listed at all in the DSM

IMHO it does not take a genius to see that the change from "disorder" to "dysphoria" was done for political reasons so that APA will take less heat from trans activists who are too lazy to read or look up definitions in a dictionary. If you actually bother to compare the listings in DSM-IV-TR and the new DSM-V; you will find that the actual definitions of the "disorder/dysphoria" are still identical. (With more explanatory wording in the DSM-V about diagnosis).

Because I can: Listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders = It's a mental disorder. Not that hard guys.

Yes, the NHS and WHO both contradict the APA. (APA = the group of dedicated actual psychiatrists.)

News Flash! Woke activists with power to set policy are willing to lie and be disingenuous to push their agenda.

In other news: Water is Wet.

.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "ideological framing." I'm trying to point out that whether one sees it as a disorder or illness depends upon one's ideology - how we frame it. We all have an ideological framing, we all interpret and contextualize based upon our worldview. I am no more exempt from this than anyone else.

I was merely contrasting that with the APA and the DSM, which does not see it as a disorder. Not everything in the DSM is a disorder - don't get hung up on the title of the book. Presumably it is included in the DSM V because people experience suffering due to it. Meaning, the "illness" part is not feeling like a man trapped in a woman's body (or vice versa), but the resulting suffering - a lot of which has to do with lack of societal acceptance. This is a subtle and complex issue that can't blithely be written off by clarifying the title of a book.

What I see often getting lost--or simply not understood--in all the knee-jerk reactionism to everything woke, is that sometimes it is actually done out of kindness, in an attempt to ease suffering and address problems. Unfortunately it often, even usually, goes too far and becomes the kind of smothering quasi-fascism that people here get upset with. On the other side, though, is a frequent lack of compassion and understanding. So from the perspective of those not in either extreme camp, it comes off as a clusterfuck of two warring extremist dogmas.

Relating that to the topic at hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a bunch of fat lesbians creating an RPG and marketing it however they want. Just as there is nothing wrong with finding it annoying or not to one's taste. Unfortunately it often gets pushed to further extremes and people lose sight of the fact that we're all better served by both increased diversity (and range of RPG products and people playing them) and the freedom to discuss such things in whatever manner we choose, all within the umbrella of an inclusive environment and community. We're all united in our love of RPGs, after all. Wokesters lose sight of this, but so do some of the folks kneejerking against anything that has even the hint of wokeness.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 17, 2020, 01:00:20 pm
Where are they telling you that you cannot criticize their product? Where are they doing ANY of what you just described concerning this product?

I don't respect anyone whether they be rpg creators or not who talk in SJW buzzwords and/or whose game descriptions come across as some virtue signalling woke manifesto

When a posters says "why are you bothered by this" my response is and will always be "why do you care and we are allowed to criticize an rpg". Followed by "just like your entitled to your opinion on the product so am, mind your own damn business". Sorry I ain't giving anyone an echo chamber simply because they might be offended at myself and others here having a difference of opinion. 

Not to mention you are not some new poster here. You know full well something like this was going to get a reaction, most likely a negative one. Being disingenuous and pretending to be purposefully naive at the reaction this product is getting here. Your not fooling anyone here. We are not very Woke or SJW here and you know it. What other reaction were you expecting besides mockery and derision towards the product.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: bat on October 17, 2020, 01:36:22 pm

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

I find this observation a lot more interesting. What's happened to the base premise that anyone can play? This group/movement seems to have become far more militant/demanding in recent times. Not a good look for RPGing in general.

Am wondering how Evil Hat's apparent strategy of focussing on a particular segment of the gaming market will play out. Is that segment big enough to sustain it, or will its association with that market mean a drop in revenue from other lines. ie is Fate Core to become or already its generic LGBTQI RPG?

I am not challenging the basic premise that anyone can play. I used to be a paid DM in a bar and I do it now for free, everyone was encouraged to give it a try. What I am saying is that some people, and I am not singling out the group presenting this game even, I have gamed with LGBTQ people since the 90s with no problems. What I am saying is that some people, regardless of sexual orientation or how comfortable they are with their bodies, are not good roleplayers and the hobby is not for them. I believe we have all encountered these people, rpgs are just not their thing, no matter how hard they try. I am not dictating who plays, I am saying I believe some people should question themselves about their approach to roleplaying and if it is the right fit for them. I like poker, I am not good at it, so I don't play poker.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 17, 2020, 01:46:12 pm
Greetings!

Oh, the whining hypocrisy and pearl-clutching! What would people be REEEing about if some company was to produce and market an RPG, entitled:

"Hungry Straight Hippos!"

Marketed with the admonition that "If you are a Communist, an SJW, or LGBTQ, you are not welcome to play this game. Pull your head out of your ass before sharing a game table with others."

There would be *oceans* of tears and gnashing of teeth, with shrill demands that such a company or author be cancelled and exposed as a terrible monster.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Slambo on October 17, 2020, 02:02:51 pm


Personally I don't really have any issue with the content of the game, people should play whatever games they enjoy. I'm not saying they're having badwrongfun. My issue is the kind of people behind this game are the kind of people that would not extend the same live and let live approach to you. The very second you cross a perceived line they would howl for you to be driven out of "gaming".

But THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT WITH THIS PRODUCT. You're basically saying "bad people doing...something which does not involve them being bad people."

If these bad people were having a cookout, would you object? If they were just walking down the street, would you object? Are you just saying anything they do in life is objectionable because they are bad people? WTF does your complaint about "they would be bad to me" have to do with this product they're selling which does not involve them being bad to you or anyone?

Quote
The reasons these types have so much success in forcing corporations, groups, communities, etc to bend the knee is because they are playing a zero sum game. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck'em, I hope their game sucks and I intend to mock them at every possible turn. You'll tolerate these people right up until your tolerance makes them the driving force behind industry decisions and gaming culture.

But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product. I mean of course you are free to mock them - but I fail to see what they're doing by selling this product which is so objectionable. They're not engaging in the activity you find objectionable, but you're expending a lot of energy objecting to their existence anyway for...doing something you don't appear to object to?

Your free to mock them but why are you mocking them that's baaaad
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Jaeger on October 17, 2020, 03:59:46 pm
Greetings!

Oh, the whining hypocrisy and pearl-clutching! What would people be REEEing about if some company was to produce and market an RPG, entitled:

"Hungry Straight Hippos!"

Marketed with the admonition that "If you are a Communist, an SJW, or LGBTQ, you are not welcome to play this game. Pull your head out of your ass before sharing a game table with others."

There would be *oceans* of tears and gnashing of teeth, with shrill demands that such a company or author be cancelled and exposed as a terrible monster.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This guy gets it.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 17, 2020, 04:59:49 pm
This borders on Trumpist xenophobia.

First of all, these folks are part of our society - they aren't invading. And in this case, they are gamers. Do you have an issue with them making games that they want to play?

Secondly, it is one thing to erase RPG history by making Oriental Adventures unavailable or drastically altering canonical lore. In my mind, that is the type of "wokism" that is deleterious to the hobby. But lesbians producing a lesbian RPG? Who cares? You don't have to play it.

1: off topic but more like an over-reaction to point 2.

2: Actually yes there is a faction invading society and trying very hard to force this on everyone. And have made appalling headway in some states in the US. Sharks over-reaction is likely due to that. The usual resistance from people trying to force a fake ideal on others. Or an unreasoning ideal. All of these "movements" have done far more harm than ever before.

3: As usual unfortunately theres ever some question if these developers are legit, or just grifters. Since its Evil Hat involved. All bets are off on wether its one or the other.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: RandyB on October 17, 2020, 06:25:12 pm

3: As usual unfortunately theres ever some question if these developers are legit, or just grifters. Since its Evil Hat involved. All bets are off on wether its one or the other.

Embrace the awesome power of "and".
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Chris24601 on October 17, 2020, 08:15:14 pm
When a posters says "why are you bothered by this" my response is and will always be "why do you care and we are allowed to criticize an rpg".
Mine would be "why are you bothered that I'm bothered by this?"
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Spinachcat on October 17, 2020, 08:44:27 pm
But Chris, why are you bothered that he's bothered if you're bothered by this? :)

Too much bothering in this thread, not enough hotness!


Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 17, 2020, 08:53:56 pm
💩
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Spinachcat on October 17, 2020, 08:56:12 pm
But some of us think that the world would be a better place with less toxic culture wars bullshit contaminating everything, and EH seems to be dedicated to encouraging more.

I wonder if the "toxic culture wars bullshit" is an overall net financial positive or negative at the end of the day. There's evidence for "go woke, go broke", but Burn Loot Murder made billions and Evil Asshat's enjoying a great KS haul.

I imagine the real economic numbers won't be truly known for years, and only with tremendous deep dive non-partisan research. AKA, about 3 days after we all get our magic ponies.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:11:20 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2020, 04:15:14 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

The issue is I don't trust Evil Hat's (and some others) judgement on who is a fascist.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:31:07 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

The issue is I don't trust Evil Hat's (and some others) judgement on who is a fascist.
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Melan on October 18, 2020, 04:43:47 am
Considering the current definition of "fascist" seems to encompass all Trump voters, that's 46.1% of the US voting population, and possibly more if we go by the even more looney bin takes. It means nothing.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ponta1010 on October 18, 2020, 04:51:20 am
Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

Good, something we can probably agree on.

Fortunately if I look at what people have posted, a large number of the posters here aren't aggressive towards the rpg's existence.

What they do object to is the espoused values of the company creating said item!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2020, 04:54:20 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

The issue is I don't trust Evil Hat's (and some others) judgement on who is a fascist.
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

That's not even close to fascism, or why people think the intro is shit. But thanks for playing.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:58:28 am
Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

Good, something we can probably agree on.

Fortunately if I look at what people have posted, a large number of the posters here aren't aggressive towards the rpg's existence.

What they do object to is the espoused values of the company creating said item!
Who cares about the values of the company that created said item?

I mean how does it hurt anyone that another company's values creates such a game?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 18, 2020, 05:00:16 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

The issue is I don't trust Evil Hat's (and some others) judgement on who is a fascist.
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

That's not even close to fascism, or why people think the intro is shit. But thanks for playing.
So what is right then?

What is your absolute best case scenario with regards to this situation?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 18, 2020, 05:07:20 am
But Chris, why are you bothered that he's bothered if you're bothered by this? :)

Too much bothering in this thread, not enough hotness!



Well this thread is all about being bothered about something stupid. Maybe better to just say it was a dumb thing to be bothered about and move on. I mean just stop, right. Just no need to get bent out of shape about this game.

Everyone just post: OH cool game. Good Luck. Maybe throw the author some monetary support.

And move on.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 18, 2020, 05:07:46 am
Greetings!

Anyone that supports "Intersectional Feminism", Non-Binary, Intersex, Race Liberation and Queer Liberation ideas has clearly been brainwashed by Marxism. People that embrace Marxist ideology are poisonous and corrosive to society, and should be mocked and rejected from our hobby. Fuck the "Fascists". The real threat to our society and everything in it are Marxists. Marxists and SJW's are filthy, diseased rats chewing at the foundations of society, and seek to poison and corrupt everything they touch. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 18, 2020, 05:09:49 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

And TERFS?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ponta1010 on October 18, 2020, 06:00:49 am
Who cares about the values of the company that created said item?

A number of people frequenting this forum apparently. :)

I mean how does it hurt anyone that another company's values creates such a game?

Funny I always felt that bigots (ie Evil Hat and their exclusionary thinking) shouldn't be encouraged, perhaps you feel differently.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2020, 06:39:22 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

The issue is I don't trust Evil Hat's (and some others) judgement on who is a fascist.
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

That's not even close to fascism, or why people think the intro is shit. But thanks for playing.
So what is right then?

What is your absolute best case scenario with regards to this situation?

Evil Hat makes his stupid statements about his assinine game, we all laugh at him and go about our day.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 18, 2020, 08:14:34 am
It's worthwhile to note the SJW freakshow crowd ponied up $60k so far.

Clearly there's a paying audience, though it might be an already existing Twitter audience that's been cultivated by Hicks, the artist and the author.

Why is this an issue for you all?

Because of this part:

"This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people."

Anyone is free to make anything they like. Want to make the Pygmy RPG and only sell it to pygmies? Sure, go for it. But when the publisher promotes their game by shitting on potential customers???

It's not even a game that welcomes all women or all lesbians. Muff diving and flannel ain't enough credentials for the Evil Asshat crew. Any conservative lesbians and lesbians who a pro-women (instead of cheering dudes with boobs) aren't welcome.

Do we really want identity politics championed in the hobby?

And before you make any bitch noise about this "bothering me", I've given up on the hobby as something that brings people together. Nope, everyone to your tribe and only your tribe sits at your table.

As I've said before, all I need for my "RPG hobby" to exist 3-5 nightmarish deplorables who want to play twice a month. Considering my gaming crew blew off CoronaChan and kept tossing dice, I'm pretty sure "fascists, TERFs and other bigots" will be pretty easy to recruit into the future.

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

The issue here is that fascist has been thrown around so cavalierly that I don't trust people to make an objective assessment of it. Particularly not those who define fascism as "people slightly right of current neo-liberal figurehead of the week". Your attitude right here is exactly why many of us have a problem with the authors of this game and it's supporters. You've come in here half cocked talking out your ass about "muh NATZHEES!", threatening to boot people from the hobby at your discretion. Who the fuck are you and why should anyone trust your judgment about anything?

You aren't the fucking gate keeper of anything. People of whatever political stripe can play any game they like and you can get right the fuck over it. If I want to go dig up a local Klan chapter and convince them to play this game solely as a pisstake on the authors there literally isn't a goddamned thing you can do about it.

You need to understand something, your pearl clutching moral outrage does not equate to authority.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: moonsweeper on October 18, 2020, 08:36:55 am

Who cares about the values of the company that created said item?

I mean how does it hurt anyone that another company's values creates such a game?

I hear what you're saying.
 
I mean how DARE someone try to force a company to do something in defiance of their core values.
 
Just look at what those terrible evil nasty Fasciststm tried to do to that poor wedding cake shop in Colorado.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 18, 2020, 11:04:39 am

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for communists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to communist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame independent forum posters for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about communists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards communists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, communist, Marxist, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a communist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

(Fixed that for you...)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Snowman0147 on October 18, 2020, 11:12:29 am
Thanks for outing yourself fixable.  Glad to know your a unfixable piece of fascist shit that I can safely ignore.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 18, 2020, 11:13:56 am


Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for fascists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to fascist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame an independent RPG for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards fascists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, fascist, Nazi, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

Funny how the more regressive and repressive Woke SJW like to act the same if not even more Fascist than actual Fascist.

First get educated and learn what an actual Fascist and what Fascism truly means. And no it's not someone who has a different opinion than your own. Learn from actual history not the kind from a very approved narrative encouraging list. An actual book on Nazi  Germany or Francisco Franco then you will actual learn and know what true Fascism. Why bother as you seem to just want to push a carefully constructed personal narrative that you are never in the wrong and anyone and everyone who disagrees with you as an evil Fascist.

 I could care less about an author includes in an rpg. Evil Hat could write one where all players must self-identify as pieces of shit. I do take issue with an rpg company that should know better trolling, virtue, gender signalling and being woke as can be. This is the same company that called HP Lovecraft an evil racist yet still used his work to promote and make an rpg because if they did their own. Without Lovecraft name attached to it it would not sell. Fred Hicks claim money is the root of all evil and then keeps using other people money to publish his products. Why you want to die on a hill for such a hypocritical company is beyond me.

As for kicking anyone out of the hobby good luck. You SJWs are so used to getting your way through online forums that reality will be a shock to you. Do you think your simply going to walk or join someone else campaign and then start making demands and ultimatums threatening to thrown gamers out of the hobby. Good luck with that as your thrown out of person home or booted from an online campaign.

Your another poster pretending to be naive and disingenuous like Mistwell. You knew full well this forum would not be in favor or support Evil hat product. You pretended to be stupid and just wanting an excuse to once again push the narrative at how evil this place.

If you don't like it go back to TBP and stay there.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 18, 2020, 11:16:50 am
Thanks for outing yourself fixable.  Glad to know your a unfixable piece of fascist shit that I can safely ignore.

Mistwell and Fixable are not really interested in having a discussion of any kind. It's simply to metaphorically wag fingers say that the rpgsite is evil and to push carefully constructed personal narratives. Anyhing and everything that goes against said narrative is to be summarily ignored.

I figured that out from the start. Woke repressive, regressive SJWs have a way of starting a conversation where you and I and anyone else who has a difference of opinion is always in the wrong. We never said don't publish the rpg. Just that speaking for myself I will not support any rpg from a company that needs to always attach a woke SJW manifesto to every rpg. I used to game and be friends wirh someone like Fixable who started normal drank the SJW kool-aid an made myself and anyone who disagreed with him the enemy. For example they just changed the main actress from Batgirl from white to a POC and when myself and another gaming friend pointed out it was a race swap he accused us and the fans that disagreed with the change as being racist and misogynist. The other friend who is more liberal than myself just cut him from his life and I followed shortly after. As everytime we disagreed with his position we were (insert word)ists. It's pretty bad when even the Trump hating firmly on the Left in terms of political spectrum Liberal gets fed up of a person Woke SJw politics.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SavageSchemer on October 18, 2020, 11:18:51 am
The point is probably lost on anyone too unbelievably, shockingly stupid to realize that "aggressive towards queers" doesn't come remotely close to an acceptable, working definition for fascism (hint: I'd look closer at the retards that decided fascism is okay if you put the word "anti" in front of it).

So let's try this one:

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for SJWs, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to SJW beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame independent forum posters for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about SJWs have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards SJWs then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, SJW, woke, left wing extremest, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a SJW, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 18, 2020, 11:25:28 am
I'm still wondering where hating those who are gay or LBQT even factors into the discussion. Speaking for myself I just dislike any company that feels the need to have a virtue, gender signalling woke manifesto included on every rpg.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Snowman0147 on October 18, 2020, 12:03:17 pm
Naw I am hating on the game because it is woke garbage, has no reason to exist, and made by a company known for being scum.

Still love my gay family members.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 18, 2020, 12:07:49 pm
Naw I am hating on the game because it is woke garbage, has no reason to exist, and made by a company known for being scum.

Still love my gay family members.

Exactly and seconded. While I don't have any gay family members I do have some as friends/ I dislike it for the same reasons. To be called fascist by posters who should no better and who have proven themselves to be clueless about actual fascists goes to show they had no interest in actually debating anything. It's censorship "STFU and like the product" pretty much.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Snowman0147 on October 18, 2020, 12:13:04 pm
Also would it kill them to make the women at least fit.  Something tells me if they walk ten feet they will suffer a heart attack.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 18, 2020, 12:29:31 pm
Also would it kill them to make the women at least fit.  Something tells me if they walk ten feet they will suffer a heart attack.

Rebel Wilson lost a lot of weight and the Twitter Mob ripped her a new one. So one has a better chance of the Middle East converting to Christianity first.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 18, 2020, 01:29:28 pm
Who cares about the values of the company that created said item?

I mean how does it hurt anyone that another company's values creates such a game?
Oh wait, suddenly we shouldn’t care about other people’s values? I think it was the makers of Thirsty Sword Lesbians who were shaming and rejecting people for their beliefs.

I wonder how many people would get upset if some right wingers made a game and explicitly said that socialists and SJW’s weren’t welcome in the role playing hobby - a lot I would imagine.

I mean, how does it hurt anyone if fascists* are playing rope playing games?


* Not that “fascist” really even means anything in this context aside from someone who disagrees with the extreme leftism of those using the word.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 18, 2020, 02:55:55 pm
Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

No, it’s about identity politics. The Kickstarter itself says it’s about identity politics. It mentions racial liberation, queer liberation and Intersectional Feminism.

That.

Is.

Identity.

Politics.

The entire point of Intersectional Feminism is identity politics. It’s about the intersection of all identity groups. That IS identity politics.

“FaScIsT” are just a red herring.

Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

I agree.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here.

Get the fuck out of our hobby.

You Fascist. :P
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 18, 2020, 04:29:24 pm
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

Another clue is seeing which posters are actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Innocent Smith on October 18, 2020, 05:15:51 pm
Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

Do you know how I know you're lying? Your definition of fascist is "racist, misogynist, transphobe, etc." Those are all idpol issues, even if you think the right position on them is obvious. What is so evil about fascist economy policy? Plenty, but that's not what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 05:29:23 pm
The only people I feel should be excluded from the hobby are those who have shown that they do not have the emotional maturity to truly participate and actually contribute to the fun of everybody around the game table.

Because that's what it is ultimately about. People who have a genuine desire to participate and do something about it.

The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.

That said. Powergamers, min-maxers, and their ilk have exactly zero emotional maturity. They make the activity entirely about themselves. And do not care one bit about what their presence does to the rest of the group. It's unacceptable. And it shouldn't be accepted or encouraged in any way.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 05:32:37 pm
Notice that I didn't mention politics here. I view that as an aspect of real life people game to escape. So it's not welcome at the game table at all to me.

I've gamed with a lot of people who had a lot of different political beliefs. But it was universally accepted that some things are just best left away from the game table. So people could enjoy themselves. So people could escape.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: David Johansen on October 18, 2020, 06:10:20 pm
The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.


It offends me that they haven't made a callout to unadaptable egomaniacs.  Some of my best friends are unadaptable egomaniacs!  Most of my players are unadaptable egomaniacs.  There have also been fascist, gay, and transgendered individuals but they have already been included.  Maybe a Vein Diagram?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 18, 2020, 06:36:30 pm
In the absurd lexicon of the modern left, a “fascist” is just someone who isn’t sufficiently anti-white. Other positions relating to economics, foreign policy, and traditional rights are irrelevant.

With that in mind, I’m proudly “fascist.”
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Innocent Smith on October 18, 2020, 06:49:42 pm
Notice that I didn't mention politics here. I view that as an aspect of real life people game to escape. So it's not welcome at the game table at all to me.

I've gamed with a lot of people who had a lot of different political beliefs. But it was universally accepted that some things are just best left away from the game table. So people could enjoy themselves. So people could escape.

The problem is you can't make that argument with people who believe everything is political.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 07:00:11 pm
The problem is you can't make that argument with people who believe everything is political.

That is what the big boot is for. If someone can't respect the game group's boundries, then they go.

You do not engage with a person like that. You simply remove them. As they are clearly going to be disruptive.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 18, 2020, 07:04:22 pm
The only people I feel should be excluded from the hobby are those who have shown that they do not have the emotional maturity to truly participate and actually contribute to the fun of everybody around the game table.

Because that's what it is ultimately about. People who have a genuine desire to participate and do something about it.

The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.

That said. Powergamers, min-maxers, and their ilk have exactly zero emotional maturity. They make the activity entirely about themselves. And do not care one bit about what their presence does to the rest of the group. It's unacceptable. And it shouldn't be accepted or encouraged in any way.

Min-maxing is where it’s at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies. :P
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 18, 2020, 07:18:51 pm
The only people I feel should be excluded from the hobby are those who have shown that they do not have the emotional maturity to truly participate and actually contribute to the fun of everybody around the game table.

Because that's what it is ultimately about. People who have a genuine desire to participate and do something about it.

The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.

That said. Powergamers, min-maxers, and their ilk have exactly zero emotional maturity. They make the activity entirely about themselves. And do not care one bit about what their presence does to the rest of the group. It's unacceptable. And it shouldn't be accepted or encouraged in any way.

Min-maxing is where it’s at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies. :P
QFT!

Some people game because they want to pretend to be elves.  Some people game because they want to create a group story to be part of.  Some people game because they see the mechanics of the game as a puzzle to be solved.  None of those is a wrong way to game.

If you can't GM for min-maxers, the problem isn't with them...
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 07:40:28 pm
Min-maxing is where it’s at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies. :P

You are never going to get me to agree that minmaxing is an acceptable form of play. Because I believe it is not.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 07:43:18 pm
If you can't GM for min-maxers, the problem isn't with them...

Actually, it's a personal choice. I won't GM for min-maxers. There is no "can't" about it. I choose not to.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: moonsweeper on October 18, 2020, 07:59:39 pm
Min-maxing is where it’s at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies. :P

You are never going to get me to agree that minmaxing is an acceptable form of play. Because I believe it is not.

There is no such thing as an unacceptable play style. 
 
There are only play styles that do not fit with certain groups and are unacceptable in that particular group.  If that is the case then it is time for the player to move on to a new group that does accept their play style.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 08:13:36 pm
There is no such thing as an unacceptable play style. 
 
There are only play styles that do not fit with certain groups and are unacceptable in that particular group.  If that is the case then it is time for the player to move on to a new group that does accept their play style.

I completely disagree with you.

Min-maxers make the game all about themselves. They force the rest of the group they are in to conform of their play style. Whether the rest of the group wants to or not. They force the GM to change the balance of the game to account for their min-maxing. The min-maxers are the ones taking the choices away from the rest of the group, and claiming their play style is superior. And will usually brook no other point of view to exist. They bully the rest of their group to get their way.

I've been in so many campaigns in my life where the min-maxers and powergamers hijacked the campaign and completely derailed it. Not because the GM lacked ideas or stories. But because the min-maxers made themselves so much of a problem, that the other aspects of the game got completely bulldozed in the process.

So for me, I drew a line in the sand. I won't tolerate their bullshit anymore.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 18, 2020, 09:00:17 pm
There is no such thing as an unacceptable play style. 
 
There are only play styles that do not fit with certain groups and are unacceptable in that particular group.  If that is the case then it is time for the player to move on to a new group that does accept their play style.

I completely disagree with you.

Min-maxers make the game all about themselves. They force the rest of the group they are in to conform of their play style. Whether the rest of the group wants to or not. They force the GM to change the balance of the game to account for their min-maxing. The min-maxers are the ones taking the choices away from the rest of the group, and claiming their play style is superior. And will usually brook no other point of view to exist. They bully the rest of their group to get their way.

I've been in so many campaigns in my life where the min-maxers and powergamers hijacked the campaign and completely derailed it. Not because the GM lacked ideas or stories. But because the min-maxers made themselves so much of a problem, that the other aspects of the game got completely bulldozed in the process.

So for me, I drew a line in the sand. I won't tolerate their bullshit anymore.
Nah, the worst are the role players.  They force everyone at the table to conform to their play style.  Whether the rest of the group wants to play out an hour of shopping or an hour of talking with the tavernkeeper or not, the role player just wants to make the game all about them.  And the GM has to change the game to accommodate their narcissism, even when the GM and rest of the players want the game to be fast-paced and action-packed.  The role players are the ones taking the choices away from the rest of the group, and claiming their play style is superior. And will usually brook no other point of view to exist. They bully the rest of their group to get their way.

I've been in so many campaigns in my life where the role-players and story-gamers hijacked the campaign and completely derailed it. Not because the GM lacked action or good pacing. But because the roleplayers made themselves so much of a problem, with their endless prattling and emoting, that the other aspects of the game got completely bulldozed in the process.

Of course, the above is just as stupid and subjective as your post.  But I'm at least self-aware enough to recognize that my preferences are just that, preferences.  Hence the tongue-in-cheek...
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 18, 2020, 10:06:09 pm
Came for pictures of Thirsty Sword Lesbians and stayed for the discussion on who is the worst RPGer.

10 out of 10 thread. Would recommend!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Opaopajr on October 19, 2020, 01:35:36 am
Well give them something to drink already!  8)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 19, 2020, 01:59:04 am
Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

No, it’s about identity politics. The Kickstarter itself says it’s about identity politics. It mentions racial liberation, queer liberation and Intersectional Feminism.

That.

Is.

Identity.

Politics.

The entire point of Intersectional Feminism is identity politics. It’s about the intersection of all identity groups. That IS identity politics.

“FaScIsT” are just a red herring.

Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

I agree.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here.

Get the fuck out of our hobby.

You Fascist. :P
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism. Execpt that you don't like it.

Fine, I'll concede that if fascists want to play D&D they can play D&D. Just they got to understand that they can play in their own basements and they got to bring their own swastikas and confederate flags.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:00:34 am
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

Another clue is seeing which posters are actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs.
Exactly. As you quoted... aggressiveness towards an rpg because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs. Thank you for agreeing with my point!  :D
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:05:13 am
Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

Do you know how I know you're lying? Your definition of fascist is "racist, misogynist, transphobe, etc." Those are all idpol issues, even if you think the right position on them is obvious. What is so evil about fascist economy policy? Plenty, but that's not what you're talking about.
I don't know what you mean by idpol issues. I think you are making a term up. Care to define? Either way you are deflecting.

And yes fascisim is exactly that. Fascist behavior is synomonous with racism, misogyny, and transphobia. Look at the actions of Nazi Germany, look at how Russia treats those who are homosexual. I mean are you defending fascism?

And if you have to ask what is wrong with fascist economy policy then, literally what the f are you talking about?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:12:40 am
Notice that I didn't mention politics here. I view that as an aspect of real life people game to escape. So it's not welcome at the game table at all to me.

I've gamed with a lot of people who had a lot of different political beliefs. But it was universally accepted that some things are just best left away from the game table. So people could enjoy themselves. So people could escape.

The problem is you can't make that argument with people who believe everything is political.
Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it. I mean how much more hypocritical can you get?

Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Why the hell do you care about this? Are you so easily offended? Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Spinachcat on October 19, 2020, 04:44:14 am
Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

Woke garbage only has a "society" as long as we "fascists" allow you to exist.

If you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

Sorry bitch, you control nothing.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

THIS is my favorite part about SJWs. An absolute and utter ignorance of anything involving actual homosexuals and an overwhelming demand they collapse themselves into a well-behaved hivemind. Get out of the closet and obediently fall into the line!

So...a game about LESBIANS caters to "LGBTQ ideas."

Remember kids, once you're thrown into the alphabet soup, you're nothing but a cog in the ideology...an ideology mostly pushed by people absolutely nobody wants to fuck.

Yup, all the gay men I know can't wait to play lesbians. LOL. But considering the level of unleashed vitriol I've seen when gay guys play female PCs, there's something truly spectacular imagining a table of gay guys playing this trainwreck of a game.

THAT is something I want see on YouTube.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 19, 2020, 06:33:33 am
Exactly. As you quoted... aggressiveness towards an rpg because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs. Thank you for agreeing with my point!  :D

Of course I agree with your point!  Any reasonable right thinking person would immediately kick that person who is trying to exclude people from the RPG hobby out of the RPG hobby.

It is for the greater good that we must do it.

The greater good.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Armchair Gamer on October 19, 2020, 07:21:54 am
Fine, I'll concede that if fascists want to play D&D they can play D&D. Just they got to understand that they can play in their own basements and they got to bring their own swastikas and confederate flags.

  Organized Play events, of course, will require players to burn a flag and trample a crucifix before play starts. Participation in the post-game orgy will be optional, despite demands from many to make it mandatory.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 19, 2020, 09:32:49 am
Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

Literal fucking LOL at this crap. Jesus Christ you people truly are insane.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 09:52:26 am
Literal fucking LOL at this crap. Jesus Christ you people truly are insane.

I am starting to think so as well.

No one here has said anything about preventing anyone from playing any rpg they want especially because of their sexuality. Yet for the SJWs like Fixable ignore as it does not fit their carefully constructed personal narratives.

We are mocking evil hat and rightfully so imo for essentially feeling the need to add an Woke SJW manifesto to one of their products. Yet somehow because you and I are not drinking the Kool-Aid we are (insert word)ists for having a difference of opinion.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: tenbones on October 19, 2020, 09:56:44 am
This thread is hysterical.

FASCISM!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 09:59:15 am
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism. Execpt that you don't like it.

Where did anyone here say that we don't like it. Citation needed please. And no not your standard bullshit "if you don't agree with me your a Fascist" line of crap. All we are doing is mocking an rpg company for feeling the need to add some Woke SJW manifesto to their rpg. No one here expect in your mind has said they are not welcome to the hobby.

Exactly. As you quoted... aggressiveness towards an rpg because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs. Thank you for agreeing with my point!  :D

Yeah....no only perhaps in your rotted SJW frame of mind. No one here has said anything to that effect. Again citation needed and it's on you to prove us wrong.

Why the hell do you care about this? Are you so easily offended? Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

Why do hell do you care that we don't agree with you. So we can't have a difference of opinion. Or if we do it must be one acceptable to you. Again no one here has said anything about anyone not playing an rpg.

It's like you have no valid counterpoint and come across as an insane shit gibbon tossing shit all over the place.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 10:01:22 am
This thread is hysterical.

FASCISM!

We are mocking Evil Hat for their Woke SJW manifesto and that equals to excluding people from the hobby. It's like watching the mentally ill trying to formulate so kind of coherent argument and failing miserably. No one here has talked about excluding anyone yet Fixable sees something that is not there.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 19, 2020, 10:02:08 am
Greetings!

Geesus, why the fuck do hungry hippo lesbians need a game that they can feel "comfortable and safe"? Presumably, a D&D game is about fantasy adventures exploring dungeons, fighting orcs, and slaying dragons.

What the fuck does being a hungry fucking hippo lesbian have to do with the D&D game?

Or is really all just about ridin' that Sybian thing and Reeing! Reeing! Reeing! about how oppressed hungry fucking hippo lesbians are?

Fucking identity politics obsessed SJW morons. They can jerk themselves a soda. ;D

The SJW tyrants and Marxist thought-police can stay the fuck out of OUR Hobby.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 19, 2020, 11:20:05 am
Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it. I mean how much more hypocritical can you get?

Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Why the hell do you care about this? Are you so easily offended? Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.
I don't think that anybody really cares about an RPG for LGBTQ people. Though, it is a silly idea. You can play a "thirsty lesbian" in any RPG that I have ever played with no additional difficulty. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a silly name for a game too, it strikes me as more sexploitation than social justice, and that is probably how they should have done it. Like Car Lesbians.

As for why we would let this bother us? I can only speak for myself in saying that a single small time indy game with SJW elements doesn't trouble me at all, even if the creators say that I'm bad and wrong and not allowed to play.

The problem is that this isn't a one time thing with one minor game. It is an extremist attitude which is coming to dominate all geeky hobbies from RPG's to video games to shows, movies, and books. It seems like we can't engage in any geeky activity without being beat over the had with how bad straight white men are and what villains people are for disagreeing.

Would you be pissed off about a bunch of right wing extremists making a RPG where they said that left wingers are terrible and not allowed to play? I bet you would hate that, even if it was an unpopular game made by a small group. How would you feel then if a high percentage of game companies were like that, if most of the TV shows were like that?

Why are you here chastising us for complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians instead of asking them why they care about the politics of role players?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 19, 2020, 12:15:23 pm
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

OK, then.

Now tell us how Thirsty Sword Lesbians helps to positively bring about a world where these issues are not a problem. See, if you can't, then this game is just using those talking points to make sales and not make change you want to see.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 19, 2020, 02:28:31 pm
Would you be pissed off about a bunch of right wing extremists making a RPG where they said that left wingers are terrible and not allowed to play? I bet you would hate that, even if it was an unpopular game made by a small group. How would you feel then if a high percentage of game companies were like that, if most of the TV shows were like that?
I don't speak for fixable, but I have no problem with there being both right-wing games and left-wing games.

I don't think that RPGs have any power as propaganda in changing culture. Children's television and Disney movies are powerful propaganda (among others), but RPGs require too much active involvement from the GM and players. They only attract people who are open to those views. So I see warring and raging against the politics of the other side as pointless sound and fury.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 19, 2020, 04:13:16 pm
I don't think that RPGs have any power as propaganda in changing culture. Children's television and Disney movies are powerful propaganda (among others), but RPGs require too much active involvement from the GM and players. They only attract people who are open to those views. So I see warring and raging against the politics of the other side as pointless sound and fury.

You're not wrong insofar as actual gaming with any given long-term group goes, but the culture of the hobby does have an influence on the hobby in general. Conflict over exactly how that culture should be changed, if some of its members think it should be, is relevant to the people involved. Bear in mind also that however small a part of geek pop culture tabletop RPGs may be, no sub-hobby is an island; what turns up first in comics, games, videogames, movies, TV shows, manga, anime or novels eventually drifts around to the rest of the subgroups. So it isn't that unreasonable to think that the sooner something objectionable (however one defines "objectionable") is called out, the better.

However, that said, I actually agree with you about the ultimate ineffectiveness of such calling out, though for different reasons: I suspect this particular game's makers are actually deliberately trying to invoke the Streisand Effect, in that the more people who complain about the game the higher public awareness is raised. So I would much rather see such blatantly politicized games ignored than denounced.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 19, 2020, 04:39:36 pm
This thread is hysterical.

FASCISM!

Using the word Hysterical is bad and wrong. Didnt you get the memo?

No. Im not joking. Months ago in the gaming circles and then outside it the nutcases were arguing this.
Nothing is safe from these lunatics to hallucinate is the new "great evil that must be ENDED!"
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 04:54:51 pm
It's both incredibly funny and increasingly sad that no one here said anything about anyone else not being allowed to play the rpg. Or who plays the rpg. Just that because msyelf and others mocked Evil Hat for attaching such a Work and SJW manifesto their latest rpg. Somehow mocking EH became tantamount to being a Fascist. With those calling us out encouraging censorship by trying to claim anyone who is not onboard 10000% with the rpg is worse than an actual Fascist. 
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Habitual Gamer on October 19, 2020, 05:33:19 pm
I suspect this particular game's makers are actually deliberately trying to invoke the Streisand Effect, in that the more people who complain about the game the higher public awareness is raised.


Remember Fate of Cthulhu, and how much praise/contempt/attention it got for dedicating one of it's small pages to letting readers know that HP Lovecraft was a racist?

And not much mention of any of the game's strengths or (numerous) weaknesses?

You can bet Evil Hat was paying attention.

So I would much rather see such blatantly politicized games ignored than denounced.

We live in a post-internet age.  "Don't pay them any attention, that's what they want" is sage advice, but nobody listens.

Personally, I think you could take this book as-is, and drop it in... say... ten years ago or ten years from now, and people would be bashing on its exploitative and tone deaf nature based on the title alone.  What was vulgar is camp, what is camp will be vulgar.  The sad fact remains that there's literally nothing stopping a group from playing characters of any orientation in (almost) any game, and nothing special needed to do so.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2020, 05:42:22 pm
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism. Execpt that you don't like it.

Where did anyone here say that we don't like it.

It's completely off topic, so I didn't comment, but I'll go on record saying I don't like racial liberation, queer liberation and intersectional feminism. Mostly emphasis on the feminism, which I am most familiar with, but the whole thing is a bag of identity politics activist buzzwords that have different meanings than the common useage, or the issue is deeper than a two word slogan.

But again, it's a red herring on the topic of Thirty Thirsty Thlesbians.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 19, 2020, 07:16:09 pm
"Don't pay them any attention, that's what they want" is sage advice, but nobody listens.

Too true, and ironically appropriate.

Like the old slogan, "Question authority!", which nobody ever realizes always includes the unspoken caveat: "Except mine, of course."
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 19, 2020, 11:47:47 pm
I don't speak for fixable, but I have no problem with there being both right-wing games and left-wing games.

I don't think that RPGs have any power as propaganda in changing culture. Children's television and Disney movies are powerful propaganda (among others), but RPGs require too much active involvement from the GM and players. They only attract people who are open to those views. So I see warring and raging against the politics of the other side as pointless sound and fury.

I basically don’t have an objection to any kind of ideology being pushed in a RPG, taken in a case by case basis. I do start to object when certain messages come to completely dominate the hobby while others are suppressed.

As you say, RPG’s aren’t as effective a propaganda tool as other more passive forms of media, since the players and especially the GM drive the stories and themes so much. They can still push an agenda, but to a lesser degree.

Though once again, taken individually I don’t see a biased show, movie, or book as so dangerous. What I have more fear of are overarching narratives created by entertainment that hammer the public with the same message over and over again until it is just assumed to be reality for far to many people. When you watch a movie with X message, then read a book with X message, then watch a few TV shows with X message - then a lot of people are going to start thinking of X as being reality, often without even critically examining why they think that.

RPG’s with an agenda can be a part of that phenomenon.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 20, 2020, 02:14:58 am
Like the old slogan, "Question authority!", which nobody ever realizes always includes the unspoken caveat: "Except mine, of course."

I always tell my students to think for themselves & question everyone - including me. :)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Doc Sammy on October 20, 2020, 03:08:51 am
If it weren't for the fact this is using the shitty Powered By The Apocalypse rules, I'd get a group together and run an explicitly fascist one-shot of this game where the titular thirsty sword lesbians are anti-intersectional fascist lesbians fighting the forces of intersectionality and destroying the marginalized scum

Queer is a homophobic slur, by the way.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Innocent Smith on October 20, 2020, 03:32:01 am
I don't know what you mean by idpol issues. I think you are making a term up. Care to define? Either way you are deflecting.

And yes fascisim is exactly that. Fascist behavior is synomonous with racism, misogyny, and transphobia. Look at the actions of Nazi Germany, look at how Russia treats those who are homosexual. I mean are you defending fascism?

And if you have to ask what is wrong with fascist economy policy then, literally what the f are you talking about?

Idpol is short for identity politics. I'm also not sure how I'm deflecting.

My point is that fascism is not JUST those things, or even directly defined by them in the first place. It certainly isn't foreign to them, but it is not the totality of fascism. If all you can say about fascists is that they're racist, then really they're no better or worse than a hell of a lot of people in history, including many left wing parties, like the Soviets, the CCP, etc. It's a completely useless term at that point.

Fascism would be garbage even if it wasn't even remotely racist. That's lost when you make it a synonym of bigotry, as if nothing else they did was bad enough to be worthy of note.

And this all goes back to my original point. You're not talking about actual fascism. You're talking about politics dealing with certain identity groups (identity politics you might say), and people who disagree with you about it. If you think there is some political issue around identity groups that is important, you have zero reason to hide from the term identity politics. Just be honest about what is actually at issue instead of name-calling.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: HappyDaze on October 20, 2020, 03:59:58 am
If it weren't for the fact this is using the shitty Powered By The Apocalypse rules, I'd get a group together and run an explicitly fascist one-shot of this game where the titular thirsty sword lesbians are anti-intersectional fascist lesbians fighting the forces of intersectionality and destroying the marginalized scum

Queer is a homophobic slur, by the way.
Don't let the system stop you; pave the way for others by doing an OSR-compatable neo-retro-conversion reskin.  ;)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 20, 2020, 06:08:36 am
It's both incredibly funny and increasingly sad that no one here said anything about anyone else not being allowed to play the rpg. Or who plays the rpg. Just that because msyelf and others mocked Evil Hat for attaching such a Work and SJW manifesto their latest rpg. Somehow mocking EH became tantamount to being a Fascist. With those calling us out encouraging censorship by trying to claim anyone who is not onboard 10000% with the rpg is worse than an actual Fascist.

Its the usual death spiral each iteration has gone through. Just in the previous iterations it was both not as broad reaching till the 90s and not as damaging or flat out openly insane. But even back in the 90s some publishers were weaponizing these lunatics to take out the competition and critics.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 20, 2020, 06:14:27 am
We live in a post-internet age.  "Don't pay them any attention, that's what they want" is sage advice, but nobody listens.

Problem is. It usually did not work in prior iterations and sure as hell doesnt work now.

Ignore them and all they do is go around you straight for the companies themselves who can and appallingly very often WILL listen to the most insane demands of a small group or even just one deranged individual as if it were the word of GOD and speaks for us all.

This is also why resistance to any of these loons statements gets so stringent. Look at all the good "just ignore them" has gotten us over and over, iteration after iteration of this madness.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 20, 2020, 06:24:35 am
Don't let the system stop you; pave the way for others by doing an OSR-compatable neo-retro-conversion reskin.  ;)

Does Lesbo Jet Fighters Dive Into the Sky count? (https://cf.geekdo-static.com/images/surprise.gif)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: rgalex on October 20, 2020, 08:15:11 am
Like others said, if they just made their own shit and left others alone that would be fine.  No one would care.  That's not what happens though. 

The "we don't want to take your X (video games, comics, manga, anime, books) away from you" is BS.  The past 5ish years have proved that.  Hicks/Evil Hat themselves have shown they will go crying and threaten to pull their games on DriveThru.  All over the internet cancel culture throws a tantrum over anime tiddies, Grim Jim, Zak S, Gamer Gate, Comics Gate, Trump, etc.

So when they try to pull this gate-keeping crap, especially if they toss around Current Year buzzwords like Nazi and fascist, I say fuck 'em.  They deserve to be pointed at, laughed at, have some internet dirt kicked in their face and if warranted tossed out of a few spaces.  Maybe, eventually, they will go and just play their damn games and leave the rest of us alone.  I know, I know, I can keep dreaming can't I?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 20, 2020, 11:41:56 am
It's completely off topic, so I didn't comment, but I'll go on record saying I don't like racial liberation, queer liberation and intersectional feminism. Mostly emphasis on the feminism, which I am most familiar with, but the whole thing is a bag of identity politics activist buzzwords that have different meanings than the common useage, or the issue is deeper than a two word slogan.

But again, it's a red herring on the topic of Thirty Thirsty Thlesbians.
Yes, this, absolutely. Racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism are indeed terrible.

Like others said, if they just made their own shit and left others alone that would be fine.  No one would care.  That's not what happens though. 

The "we don't want to take your X (video games, comics, manga, anime, books) away from you" is BS.  They past 5ish years have proved that.  Hicks/Evil Hat themselves have shown they will go crying and threaten to pull their games on DriveThru.  All over the internet cancel culture throws a tantrum over anime tiddies, Grim Jim, Zak S, Gamer Gate, Comics Gate, Trump, etc.

So when they try to pull this gate-keeping crap, especially if they toss around Current Year buzzwords like Nazi and fascist, I say fuck 'em.  They deserve to be pointed at, laughed at, have some internet dirt kicked in their face and if warranted tossed out of a few spaces.  Maybe, eventually, they will go and just play their damn games and leave the rest of us alone.  I know, I know, I can keep dreaming can't I?
Yes, I agree with this. Keeping in mind that none of us are trying to intimidate the people at Evil Hat, destroy their livelihoods, shut them out of the hobby, or anything of the sort. We are insulting and/or ridiculing them. It is people on their ideological side of the aisle who want to force everybody in the hobby to be like them, for the most part those of us on the right or center just want to be left alone to enjoy our games.

Complaining about SJWs in gaming does have an important function. It shows everybody in the hobby that there are dissenting voices out there. If people object to having social justice, intersectionality, cultural Marxism, or what ever the term is for this brand of extreme leftism forced upon them and their hobbies, then they can see that they aren't alone.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: tenbones on October 20, 2020, 03:02:51 pm
Well said, Shieldwife.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 20, 2020, 03:12:27 pm
Well said, Shieldwife.
Thankyou  ;D
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 20, 2020, 03:25:34 pm
Yep and yep. Ignoring this stuff just encourages them. We're all old hands at this by now and know better.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Slipshot762 on October 20, 2020, 07:47:00 pm
i will never get this shit, i've never run a game were sex or orientation or anything like that remotely comes into play as a general thing. i dont even like it when hetero stuff is spotlighted at the table let alone addressed with mechanics; we grew out of rolling for orgasm after age 14 really.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Anon Adderlan on October 21, 2020, 03:55:10 am
Wanna know what's really ironic? There's nothing inherently 'queer' about this game beyond the fact that gender doesn't limit who you can crush on, and yuri/yaoi isn't exactly unpopular among straight people. So by their definition they could have made this game more 'accessible' by going with more 'attractive' art (it is after all a romance game) and a less belligerent title. But the objective isn't market share but message, and the creators have become so insufferable at this point that I'm hesitant to support them regardless of how good the game is or how much I agree with them in principle.

A quick Google reveals that Kit Walsh isn't just transgender or similar - apparently he/she is transracial too!

http://bloggingwhilebrown.com/speakers-2015

"Blogging while brown"?  ???

Using the shield of 'intersectionality' to invade spaces they have no business being to co-opt the issues being advocated for is exactly the kind of insufferable shit I'm talking about. It's the same kind of appropriation and whataboutism they yell at us for.

Drag Queens have nothing to do with mocking trans people. Not even everyone in the SJW nut job community believes that, and a subset of them are the few people that do. Its just an artistic form of self expression involving the subversion of gender roles and stuff like that.

My life experience trumps your denial.

My "father" was a drag queen who stole my mom's clothes to sneak out at night when I was a young child to get his jollies. He did so out of hate and jealousy toward my mother. And would scoff at and mock anyone transsexual. He was and still is evil incarnate.

He was getting his kicks one moment, torturing and abusing a sick child the next moment, and raping my mother at the next. So you better believe, I know the face of hate.

I suffered 48 years of PTSD because of that monster. Nonstop fear. And that's no way for anyone to live. 48 years of being trapped in the moment of a small young child frozen in terror, while the monster that is the cause looms over them.

I didn't have a father. My boogeyman was very real.

This sucks, and I'm really sorry that you had/have to experience this.

But one anecdote shouldn't define an entire category of people. I imagine that there are many reasons drag queens are drag queens, but my guess is that the overwhelming majority simply like dressing up as women. It is performance art.

That said, if that is your primary and only association with a certain type of person, it is understandable why you would feel that way - at least on a purely emotional level. I once worked with a woman who had been gang-raped by several black men. She knew intellectually that most black men were not rapists, but she still had a physical response when she saw one. That was 25 years ago...I'm hoping that she found a way to heal this trauma wound, but have no idea.

One symptom of trauma is the inability to distinguish the accountable individual from the group, either intellectually or emotionally.

"Oh get over it" shows a profound ignorance of what PTSD does to a person by the one who says it. It's not something a person can just choose to "get over". The afflicted need to be able to cope with it in their own way, otherwise it's never going to stop. They need to find one aspect in their life that makes them feel safe again. And anyone who thinks it is easy is just being willfully ignorant.

People heal on their own time. And not to someone else's convenience.

I didn't say "get over it." In fact, I made absolutely no recommendations on how you should deal with your trauma, because I am very aware that trauma is extremely difficult to heal, and of course it is none of my business.

What I did say is that your experience with your father doesn't define all drag queens.

Another symptom is misinterpreting any challenge to biased thinking.

Darrin, I recognize these are open wounds of which which you may never achieve closure for, and my intent is not to poke at them, but I feel it's important to point out how trauma itself can lead to prejudice and bigotry. Because there's a lot of genuinely wounded people out there feeding into a toxic culture which is impossible to fix because every attempt to do so is seen as #Gaslighting, #Mansplaining, dismissing lived experience, telling someone they don't exist, or suggesting someone should just get over it. There are also plenty of narcissists/sociopaths taking advantage of this state of affairs, and moving forward depends of being able to tell the difference.

Would you tolerate someone mocking somebody for getting or having cancer?

Well Deadpool seems rather popular.

Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

No, it is about #IdentityPolitics because of how much it relies on having the power to determine who should be identified as a fascist. And the game doesn't need a disclaimer against fascists if there's nothing inherent in the material which would appeal to fascist in the first place.

Unless there is, in which case I'm curious to hear what that is.

Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

The only action taken was expressing an opinion.

Now if they tried to get the game banned or person fired...

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

Does this include individuals suffering genuine trauma?

As for LGBT 'ideals', again there's nothing inherent in the game itself which is LGBT. In fact there's a glossary of LGBT terms 'used' in the game which are never used beyond the glossary itself. It's as if the designer thinks that simply calling something such makes it so. And advice on how to deal with aro/ace individuals in play is conspicuously absent.

aggressiveness towards an rpg because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs.

No it isn't, because nothing we say here stops people from playing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

Except for the arson, looting, vandalism, harassment, defamation, assault...

That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

A standard I hold everyone accountable to.

Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Because that's the kind of thinking behind every authoritarian policy since forever: Start with an obvious moral basis nobody can disagree with and then expand the definition until it encompasses all your political enemies. Which is exactly what has happened.

Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

We're not stopping them.

I don't think that RPGs have any power as propaganda in changing culture. Children's television and Disney movies are powerful propaganda (among others), but RPGs require too much active involvement from the GM and players. They only attract people who are open to those views. So I see warring and raging against the politics of the other side as pointless sound and fury.

Agreed, and I've seen no evidence that these games lead to any changes in values or behavior whatsoever even among those who claim they do.

Jesus Wept guys, congrats for falling into the trap.

Because it is a trap and this is bait.

#Awkward
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Almost_Useless on October 21, 2020, 10:14:24 pm
I think we're missing out on the possible upside here.  What if the Kickstarter fulfillment is a complete debacle and sinks the company?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: moonsweeper on October 21, 2020, 11:35:05 pm
I think we're missing out on the possible upside here.  What if the Kickstarter fulfillment is a complete debacle and sinks the company?

They will claim it is our fault because they were so traumatized by the terrible things being said on TheRPGSite... ;)

Although that would still be pretty funny...
 
edit: I really can't seem to take this game seriously because every time I read the title, the amazon tribe sequence from Deathstalker II keeps running through my head.   :D
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 22, 2020, 10:50:59 am
I think we're missing out on the possible upside here.  What if the Kickstarter fulfillment is a complete debacle and sinks the company?

Theyd just claim "It was those horrible Nazis who cause the KS to fail! Oh boo-hoo-hoo! Please bail is out with our new going out of business sale! saaaave us!"
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Torque2100 on October 22, 2020, 01:39:48 pm
I really feel like being needlessly aggressive towards their Kickstarter is exactly what they want.  It lets them score quick Twitterati clout by loudly proclaiming "SEE! SEE!  THE NAHT-ZEES CAME FOR US! Didn't we tell you this would happen?!  They're all anti-gay bigots and this PROVES IT!"

I think a better approach is to make fun of them.  Let's see if we can get Grim Jim or Venger to make an OSR game called "Busty Lesbian Amazons of the Yonic Isles" or something of that nature.  Make it very very pro-gay (the PCs are assumed to be Lesbian Amazons, after all) but dial up the smut and male gaze to 11.

Obviously this game would be quite uncomfortable to actually play (for most people, anyway), but that's not really the point.  The point is to mock Thirsty Sword Lesbians and other obnoxiously preachy idpol games like it.  Maybe have a section where most idpol games would have a wordy, rambling forward angrily lecturing the reader about how the game WILL be played and calling them buzzwords for disagreeing, just have a paragraph that says "you bought the book. It's yours, you can do what you want with it."

The great things about roleplaying games as an artform is how versatile they are.  The only limit is your imagination.  It's entirely possible and valid to release an RPG that's never intended to be actually played.   Just look at Violence: The Role-Playing Game of Egregious and Repulsive Bloodshed
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 22, 2020, 02:42:47 pm
It looks like the kickstarter is already a big success, it's brought in over $100,000 with a $20,000 goal.

The creators of TSL probably do want our hostile reactions though. In fact, they are probably imagining far more extreme hatred directed at their game than the mild contempt we're showing. Leftists have this weird idea that they are super brave rebels fighting against the power structure, risking themselves as martyrs for the cause, when they are in fact the absolute opposite. You'll see left wing actors and celebrities say that all Trump supporters are evil and stupid, then act like they are persecuted when a handful of anonymous internet posters criticize them - despite the actors still being millionaires, having the support of all the people they personally know, and their entire industry.

While not as rich and powerful as Hollywood celebs, that is what the TSL people are like. They have the support of the RPG industry at large as well as all of their fans and peers. Our criticism doesn't inconvenience them in the slightest. Though it plays into their make believe world where evil Nazis like us really hate them, are persecuting them, and they are so brave for standing up to the Man.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 22, 2020, 03:34:39 pm
Quote
This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people

Intersex is not an identity, it is an umbrella term for dozens of recognized medical conditions that adversely affect the fertility of their patients and in some cases are fatal if left untreated. I read tweets by intersex people on twitter, although nowadays many prefer "variations of sexual characteristics" or "differences of sexual development". They don't like having their medical conditions co-opted by trans rights activists to "disprove" the sex binary.

Being born with part of your intestines hanging out, deadly salt-wasting, or a complete insensitivity to androgens is not equivalent to identifying as a trans non-binary two-spirit demigirl (I thought cultural appropriation was wrong?), advocating for the abolishment of single-sex spaces (mostly women's spaces), calling lesbians transphobic for not liking girldick and throwing misogynistic slurs at them and causing young lesbians extreme self-esteem issues because they're trying to force themselves to like dick when their every instinct is screaming at them "I don't like dick!" (did we learn nothing from conversion therapy?), calling detransitioners and transgender pedophiles "fakes" a la the No True Scotsman fallacy, murdering a FtM's unborn child because of sexist medical "ethics" when you wouldn't treat a pregnant woman that way, claiming that biological sex is a social construct invented by white supremacists (which is not only false but insanely racist, since the non-white Sumerians, Egyptians, Chinese, and Mayans among other indigenous cultures wrote extensively about their male and female deities), or replacing political positions originally reserved (on the basis of equality) for female individuals with male individuals who identify as non-men.

I respect the right of other humans to have colorful personalities and to love any other consenting adult regardless of their respective sex or body mods, but respect is a two-way street. The far left trans rights activists (who don't speak for all trans individuals) have shown themselves to be misogynistic, homophobic, and science-denying in spades. Get your own house in order before criticizing others.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 22, 2020, 04:19:42 pm
Quote
This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people

Intersex is not an identity, it is an umbrella term for dozens of recognized medical conditions that adversely affect the fertility of their patients and in some cases are fatal if left untreated. I read tweets by intersex people on twitter, although nowadays many prefer "variations of sexual characteristics" or "differences of sexual development". They don't like having their medical conditions co-opted by trans rights activists to "disprove" the sex binary.

Being born with part of your intestines hanging out, deadly salt-wasting, or a complete insensitivity to androgens is not equivalent to identifying as a trans non-binary two-spirit demigirl (I thought cultural appropriation was wrong?), advocating for the abolishment of single-sex spaces (mostly women's spaces), calling lesbians transphobic for not liking girldick and throwing misogynistic slurs at them and causing young lesbians extreme self-esteem issues because they're trying to force themselves to like dick when their every instinct is screaming at them "I don't like dick!" (did we learn nothing from conversion therapy?), calling detransitioners and transgender pedophiles "fakes" a la the No True Scotsman fallacy, murdering a FtM's unborn child because of sexist medical "ethics" when you wouldn't treat a pregnant woman that way, claiming that biological sex is a social construct invented by white supremacists (which is not only false but insanely racist, since the non-white Sumerians, Egyptians, Chinese, and Mayans among other indigenous cultures wrote extensively about their male and female deities), or replacing political positions originally reserved (on the basis of equality) for female individuals with male individuals who identify as non-men.

I respect the right of other humans to have colorful personalities and to love any other consenting adult regardless of their respective sex or body mods, but respect is a two-way street. The far left trans rights activists (who don't speak for all trans individuals) have shown themselves to be misogynistic, homophobic, and science-denying in spades. Get your own house in order before criticizing others.

That's what makes this forum fun. I never thought I'd be agreeing with BoxCrayonTales on this kind of topic.

(https://data.whicdn.com/images/59719263/original.png)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 22, 2020, 05:18:30 pm
That's what makes this forum fun. I never thought I'd be agreeing with BoxCrayonTales on this kind of topic.

Was a great post Mr Box!  8)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 22, 2020, 06:02:51 pm
I really feel like being needlessly aggressive towards their Kickstarter is exactly what they want.  It lets them score quick Twitterati clout by loudly proclaiming "SEE! SEE!  THE NAHT-ZEES CAME FOR US! Didn't we tell you this would happen?!  They're all anti-gay bigots and this PROVES IT!"

I think a better approach is to make fun of them.  Let's see if we can get Grim Jim or Venger to make an OSR game called "Busty Lesbian Amazons of the Yonic Isles" or something of that nature.  Make it very very pro-gay (the PCs are assumed to be Lesbian Amazons, after all) but dial up the smut and male gaze to 11.

Obviously this game would be quite uncomfortable to actually play (for most people, anyway), but that's not really the point.  The point is to mock Thirsty Sword Lesbians and other obnoxiously preachy idpol games like it.  Maybe have a section where most idpol games would have a wordy, rambling forward angrily lecturing the reader about how the game WILL be played and calling them buzzwords for disagreeing, just have a paragraph that says "you bought the book. It's yours, you can do what you want with it."

The great things about roleplaying games as an artform is how versatile they are.  The only limit is your imagination.  It's entirely possible and valid to release an RPG that's never intended to be actually played.   Just look at Violence: The Role-Playing Game of Egregious and Repulsive Bloodshed

I like the parody idea. You could make a D&D 5e module called Thirsty Sword Lesbians where a tribe of Amazons is just sitting out in a wasteland refusing water or anything else to drink because their leader said that they must do this as a purification ritual. Of course, their leader has been acting weird ever since she started wearing that helm with two oddly cut rubies on it. The PCs must figure out how to rescue the Amazons without killing them. Reward is, you have a tribe of Amazons owing you a favor.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 22, 2020, 06:06:59 pm
It looks like the kickstarter is already a big success, it's brought in over $100,000 with a $20,000 goal.

The creators of TSL probably do want our hostile reactions though. In fact, they are probably imagining far more extreme hatred directed at their game than the mild contempt we're showing. Leftists have this weird idea that they are super brave rebels fighting against the power structure, risking themselves as martyrs for the cause, when they are in fact the absolute opposite. You'll see left wing actors and celebrities say that all Trump supporters are evil and stupid, then act like they are persecuted when a handful of anonymous internet posters criticize them - despite the actors still being millionaires, having the support of all the people they personally know, and their entire industry.

While not as rich and powerful as Hollywood celebs, that is what the TSL people are like. They have the support of the RPG industry at large as well as all of their fans and peers. Our criticism doesn't inconvenience them in the slightest. Though it plays into their make believe world where evil Nazis like us really hate them, are persecuting them, and they are so brave for standing up to the Man.

The actors and actresses are probably getting actively involved in the bait and faint so that they can demonstrate their own popularity through internet clicks - even if those clicks are artificially inflated. More popularity means more roles offered to their agents.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 22, 2020, 07:09:00 pm
I really feel like being needlessly aggressive towards their Kickstarter is exactly what they want.  It lets them score quick Twitterati clout by loudly proclaiming "SEE! SEE!  THE NAHT-ZEES CAME FOR US! Didn't we tell you this would happen?!  They're all anti-gay bigots and this PROVES IT!"

I think a better approach is to make fun of them.  Let's see if we can get Grim Jim or Venger to make an OSR game called "Busty Lesbian Amazons of the Yonic Isles" or something of that nature.  Make it very very pro-gay (the PCs are assumed to be Lesbian Amazons, after all) but dial up the smut and male gaze to 11.

Obviously this game would be quite uncomfortable to actually play (for most people, anyway), but that's not really the point.  The point is to mock Thirsty Sword Lesbians and other obnoxiously preachy idpol games like it.  Maybe have a section where most idpol games would have a wordy, rambling forward angrily lecturing the reader about how the game WILL be played and calling them buzzwords for disagreeing, just have a paragraph that says "you bought the book. It's yours, you can do what you want with it."

The great things about roleplaying games as an artform is how versatile they are.  The only limit is your imagination.  It's entirely possible and valid to release an RPG that's never intended to be actually played.   Just look at Violence: The Role-Playing Game of Egregious and Repulsive Bloodshed

This would actually be a fun way to get back at them. Make it a fun campy game about rescuing young women from brutish cavemen from primitive tribes who capture hapless female travelers to take them back to their damp caves, where they will be held chained, pregnant and barefooted cooking for them. But then the busty amazon heroes burst into their caves to slay the cavemen brutes and rescue the young women from that vile fate, to take them back to their Amazon village and "liberate" them. It would almost be feminists on its depiction of men, but fun and parodical about it.

Quote
This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots. The team behind Thirsty Sword Lesbians supports racial liberation, intersectional feminism, and queer liberation. We love and respect transgender people, nonbinary people, intersex people, and women. This game is a joyous celebration of lives and identities otherwise marginalized. If you don’t agree, fix your heart before sharing a table with other people

Intersex is not an identity, it is an umbrella term for dozens of recognized medical conditions that adversely affect the fertility of their patients and in some cases are fatal if left untreated. I read tweets by intersex people on twitter, although nowadays many prefer "variations of sexual characteristics" or "differences of sexual development". They don't like having their medical conditions co-opted by trans rights activists to "disprove" the sex binary.

Being born with part of your intestines hanging out, deadly salt-wasting, or a complete insensitivity to androgens is not equivalent to identifying as a trans non-binary two-spirit demigirl (I thought cultural appropriation was wrong?), advocating for the abolishment of single-sex spaces (mostly women's spaces), calling lesbians transphobic for not liking girldick and throwing misogynistic slurs at them and causing young lesbians extreme self-esteem issues because they're trying to force themselves to like dick when their every instinct is screaming at them "I don't like dick!" (did we learn nothing from conversion therapy?), calling detransitioners and transgender pedophiles "fakes" a la the No True Scotsman fallacy, murdering a FtM's unborn child because of sexist medical "ethics" when you wouldn't treat a pregnant woman that way, claiming that biological sex is a social construct invented by white supremacists (which is not only false but insanely racist, since the non-white Sumerians, Egyptians, Chinese, and Mayans among other indigenous cultures wrote extensively about their male and female deities), or replacing political positions originally reserved (on the basis of equality) for female individuals with male individuals who identify as non-men.

I respect the right of other humans to have colorful personalities and to love any other consenting adult regardless of their respective sex or body mods, but respect is a two-way street. The far left trans rights activists (who don't speak for all trans individuals) have shown themselves to be misogynistic, homophobic, and science-denying in spades. Get your own house in order before criticizing others.

That's what makes this forum fun. I never thought I'd be agreeing with BoxCrayonTales on this kind of topic.

(https://data.whicdn.com/images/59719263/original.png)

Agreed  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/RP9f2S2.jpg)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 23, 2020, 04:41:25 am
Coming into this pretty late. I haven't read or played Thirsty Sword Lesbians, though I saw some people playing the playtest version at a story game night in Oakland last year.

Complaining about SJWs in gaming does have an important function. It shows everybody in the hobby that there are dissenting voices out there. If people object to having social justice, intersectionality, cultural Marxism, or what ever the term is for this brand of extreme leftism forced upon them and their hobbies, then they can see that they aren't alone.
I understand that it is a positive to represent for your voice within the community. However, it's possible to represent by saying positive things about yourselves and your games - and countering attacks, rather than by complaining about the games that other people like to play.

Now, maybe you think complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a better way to represent yourself than by the cool ways that you game. I don't think so - but that's just my opinion.

Still, the point is that the only two choices aren't complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians and silence.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 23, 2020, 10:51:08 am
Outrage marketing of the Nazi kind.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Slambo on October 23, 2020, 11:05:56 am
Coming into this pretty late. I haven't read or played Thirsty Sword Lesbians, though I saw some people playing the playtest version at a story game night in Oakland last year.

Complaining about SJWs in gaming does have an important function. It shows everybody in the hobby that there are dissenting voices out there. If people object to having social justice, intersectionality, cultural Marxism, or what ever the term is for this brand of extreme leftism forced upon them and their hobbies, then they can see that they aren't alone.
I understand that it is a positive to represent for your voice within the community. However, it's possible to represent by saying positive things about yourselves and your games - and countering attacks, rather than by complaining about the games that other people like to play.

Now, maybe you think complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a better way to represent yourself than by the cool ways that you game. I don't think so - but that's just my opinion.

Still, the point is that the only two choices aren't complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians and silence.

Yes but complaining about the game doesnt prevent you from being positive about other things either.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 23, 2020, 11:31:49 am
Coming into this pretty late. I haven't read or played Thirsty Sword Lesbians, though I saw some people playing the playtest version at a story game night in Oakland last year.

Complaining about SJWs in gaming does have an important function. It shows everybody in the hobby that there are dissenting voices out there. If people object to having social justice, intersectionality, cultural Marxism, or what ever the term is for this brand of extreme leftism forced upon them and their hobbies, then they can see that they aren't alone.
I understand that it is a positive to represent for your voice within the community. However, it's possible to represent by saying positive things about yourselves and your games - and countering attacks, rather than by complaining about the games that other people like to play.

Now, maybe you think complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a better way to represent yourself than by the cool ways that you game. I don't think so - but that's just my opinion.

Still, the point is that the only two choices aren't complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians and silence.

I haven't read every single post in this thread but I've read most, thus far most of the criticism has been leveled at the people behind the game and the political implications of statements made therein. The criticisms don't seem to be about the actual game or it's premise. I think it's perfectly valid to attack those that we feel to be bad faith actors who are poisoning the hobby and wouldn't allow any who disagree with them a space in it if they had their way.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Dimitrios on October 23, 2020, 12:07:12 pm
Coming into this pretty late. I haven't read or played Thirsty Sword Lesbians, though I saw some people playing the playtest version at a story game night in Oakland last year.

Complaining about SJWs in gaming does have an important function. It shows everybody in the hobby that there are dissenting voices out there. If people object to having social justice, intersectionality, cultural Marxism, or what ever the term is for this brand of extreme leftism forced upon them and their hobbies, then they can see that they aren't alone.
I understand that it is a positive to represent for your voice within the community. However, it's possible to represent by saying positive things about yourselves and your games - and countering attacks, rather than by complaining about the games that other people like to play.

Now, maybe you think complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a better way to represent yourself than by the cool ways that you game. I don't think so - but that's just my opinion.

Still, the point is that the only two choices aren't complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians and silence.

I have no problem with people playing whatever games they enjoy. I just dislike "culture wars marketing" on principle. "Buy our game because it's cool and fun" = good; "Buy our game because those people in the tribe that we don't like suck" = bad.

It's like the Ghostbusters remake. I had no opinion at all about the movie, but by the time the entire advertising campaign became "watch this movie because of the stupid social media drama that's surrounding it", I started hoping it would fail. Not because of anything to do with the film itself, but because if it had succeeded, then every other freaking movie would have copied them. And "stir up bullshit internet drama" would have become a standard part of movie promotion.

Just promote your damn game, and leave culture wars/politics out of it.

Pundit beats the "SJWs are ruining the hobby" drum pretty loudly on this forum, but when I read the promotions for Dark Albion or Lion and Dragon, I don't see "buy this game because the SJWs hate it".
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 23, 2020, 12:22:06 pm
Pundit beats the "SJWs are ruining the hobby" drum pretty loudly on this forum, but when I read the promotions for Dark Albion or Lion and Dragon, I don't see "buy this game because the SJWs hate it".

That's probably because he's designing playable, fun games that stand on their own and doesn't need to rely on obvious marketing tricks to cover up lack of quality.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: RandyB on October 23, 2020, 01:05:43 pm
Pundit beats the "SJWs are ruining the hobby" drum pretty loudly on this forum, but when I read the promotions for Dark Albion or Lion and Dragon, I don't see "buy this game because the SJWs hate it".

That's probably because he's designing playable, fun games that stand on their own and doesn't need to rely on obvious marketing tricks to cover up lack of quality.

That's because Pundit has the ability and the intent to deliver quality. Those who can't, call on the marketing tricks. And some who call on the marketing tricks are Twu Bewievers in the Cause, to boot.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 23, 2020, 02:54:02 pm
Coming into this pretty late. I haven't read or played Thirsty Sword Lesbians, though I saw some people playing the playtest version at a story game night in Oakland last year.

Complaining about SJWs in gaming does have an important function. It shows everybody in the hobby that there are dissenting voices out there. If people object to having social justice, intersectionality, cultural Marxism, or what ever the term is for this brand of extreme leftism forced upon them and their hobbies, then they can see that they aren't alone.
I understand that it is a positive to represent for your voice within the community. However, it's possible to represent by saying positive things about yourselves and your games - and countering attacks, rather than by complaining about the games that other people like to play.

Now, maybe you think complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a better way to represent yourself than by the cool ways that you game. I don't think so - but that's just my opinion.

Still, the point is that the only two choices aren't complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians and silence.

I haven't read every single post in this thread but I've read most, thus far most of the criticism has been leveled at the people behind the game and the political implications of statements made therein. The criticisms don't seem to be about the actual game or it's premise. I think it's perfectly valid to attack those that we feel to be bad faith actors who are poisoning the hobby and wouldn't allow any who disagree with them a space in it if they had their way.

I did mention something about the game's premise briefly in one post, mostly as an aside, but yes, the vast majority of the criticism by FAR has been about the the game's creators and marketing. But even if there had been more posts criticizing the game itself--SO WHAT?!? Since when are we not allowed to criticize an RPG in an RPG forum? Isn't that the function of this site?

And for the umpteenth time, NO. NOBODY in this thread has at any point denied anyone the right to play the games they like to play.

Criticism of a thing =/= censorship of that thing (unless you're canceling people, but that's another topic NOBODY here has engaged on, yet the company we're criticizing HAS). Just because people complain about a thing that does not mean that they're preventing anyone from participating in that thing. And nobodies playstyle preferences are sacrosanct. Just because "Well, somebody likes this game (presumably)" that does not mean that "therefore we're not allowed to point out the things we think are wrong with it", or that we have to tip toe around the issue by highlighting things we do in our own game rather than discuss the actual topic and point out the things we don't like (if any) or the things we do about the game we're actually discussing. That's just asenine.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 23, 2020, 11:00:04 pm
That's what makes this forum fun. I never thought I'd be agreeing with BoxCrayonTales on this kind of topic.

(https://data.whicdn.com/images/59719263/original.png)

Agreed  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/RP9f2S2.jpg)

Also agreed  ;D

(https://i.ibb.co/JBj1dV4/lotr4.jpg)

I understand that it is a positive to represent for your voice within the community. However, it's possible to represent by saying positive things about yourselves and your games - and countering attacks, rather than by complaining about the games that other people like to play.

Now, maybe you think complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a better way to represent yourself than by the cool ways that you game. I don't think so - but that's just my opinion.

Still, the point is that the only two choices aren't complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians and silence.
What do you mean by "represent yourself?" You mean me personally? This forum? Right leaning role players in general?

Truth be told, complaining about Thirst Sword Lesbians comprises a very small part of both my role playing and politically oriented activity. I could speak positively about the things I like, and I do. But when there is a growing movement across society to demonize people like myself and in many cases intimidate us or try to harm us, then I feel that criticizing someone who participates in that and advocates for it is entirely appropriate.

Perhaps you should tell the creators of TSL that instead of saying how evil so called "fascists" are that they should just work on making their pro-lesbian game. If you sent an e-mail to them saying something along those lines, they would likely call you a fascist as well.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 24, 2020, 03:20:23 am
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

OK, then.

Now tell us how Thirsty Sword Lesbians helps to positively bring about a world where these issues are not a problem. See, if you can't, then this game is just using those talking points to make sales and not make change you want to see.
Well you are putting too much into this. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is just a game made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to have fun playing this game play it. Why in the world do you care?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 24, 2020, 05:35:27 am
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

OK, then.

Now tell us how Thirsty Sword Lesbians helps to positively bring about a world where these issues are not a problem. See, if you can't, then this game is just using those talking points to make sales and not make change you want to see.
Well you are putting too much into this. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is just a game made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to have fun playing this game play it. Why in the world do you care?

I know that you are just here to troll.

But I'll share a secret with you. It never ends with, "Live and let live". It just keeps on going until that which does not conform to their ideology is silenced. You can tell by the language used in the game Kickstarter that this game is not meant to be a commercial success or a tool to help create safe spaces for gamers to play in, it is a propaganda weapon used to try and fleece the gullible of their money by antagonizing the dull-witted into reacting how they wish. The tactic has been used before and gets old very quick and most of the people on this forum are really tired of it.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 24, 2020, 05:35:55 am
Friends do not let friends have BADWRONGFUN.

Not even if they mistakenly claim to be having GOODRIGHTFUN.

:nope:
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: TNMalt on October 24, 2020, 10:12:04 am
Took a peek and it reminds me of indie comics from the 90s I would pass up since I wasn't the target demographic. Even if I was the target demographic for this product, it would be too ham fisted for my tastes. Filing this book in the forgotten rpg folder.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 24, 2020, 10:22:35 am
Well you are putting too much into this. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is just a game made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to have fun playing this game play it. Why in the world do you care?

As others have pointed out your here to do nothing but troll. How come your not speaking out at how unfairly Rpg.net is banning people for having a difference of opinion and for calling out heavy handed truly Fascist moderation in this thread: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/rpg-net-user-points-out-irony-of-mods-not-wanting-to-ban-people-gets-banned/

You won't though because it cause against your carefully constructed personal narrative that this place is full of alt-reich Fascists. As well as being a chicken-shit coward scared to be banned by Rpg.net.


I know that you are just here to troll.

But I'll share a secret with you. It never ends with, "Live and let live". It just keeps on going until that which does not conform to their ideology is silenced. You can tell by the language used in the game Kickstarter that this game is not meant to be a commercial success or a tool to help create safe spaces for gamers to play in, it is a propaganda weapon used to try and fleece the gullible of their money by antagonizing the dull-witted into reacting how they wish. The tactic has been used before and gets old very quick and most of the people on this forum are really tired of it.

Agreed and seconded.

Now we get to see if he truly stands by his beliefs or simply stands by the narrative. I posted a link about rpg.net and heavily handed by his definition fascist moderation. We will see if he stays silent or evades the issue. I expect the goalposts to be moved and the silence to be deafening.. 
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 24, 2020, 11:18:53 am
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

OK, then.

Now tell us how Thirsty Sword Lesbians helps to positively bring about a world where these issues are not a problem. See, if you can't, then this game is just using those talking points to make sales and not make change you want to see.
Well you are putting too much into this. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is just a game made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to have fun playing this game play it. Why in the world do you care?

Well, you are putting too much (something?) into this. This thread is just a discussion made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to discuss RPGs post on this forum. Why in the world do you care?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: HappyDaze on October 24, 2020, 11:20:22 am
Now we get to see if he truly stands by his beliefs or simply stands by the narrative. I posted a link about rpg.net and heavily handed by his definition fascist moderation. We will see if he stays silent or evades the issue. I expect the goalposts to be moved and the silence to be deafening..
Or maybe he will just ignore your stupid attempt to get him to play into your game?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 24, 2020, 12:03:58 pm
Or maybe he will just ignore your stupid attempt to get him to play into your game?

Oh look another GO GO SJW Ranger

If your going to call me out as a Fascist when someone else behaves worse than I do and do nothing then your a fucking hypocrite.

Then again you also stayed silent on the issue because like Fixable it's all about the carefully constructed personal narratives. Since NOTHING
 can go against said narratives it is to be summarily ignored.

Like Fixable your here to just troll and I am feeding and giving to much attention to a Troll. Why respond to such a stupidly transparent pathetic attempt at trolling.


Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 24, 2020, 12:06:48 pm
Well, you are putting too much (something?) into this. This thread is just a discussion made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to discuss RPGs post on this forum. Why in the world do you care?

Do yourself a favor and ignore the Troll it is better that way.

It's an attempt at censorship. The rpg is perfect because of reasons and feels so you and I need to shut the hell up and just accept it's perfection.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 24, 2020, 12:40:38 pm
One thing no one seems to mention...

The "thirsty" line is a derogatory hatefull little feminist tag aimed at... men. I have never seen it aimed at women.

So what does this say about the "message" of the game? Especially since the illustrations look quite often more like men in drag or trans men? Something about this just feels really...wrong?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Slambo on October 24, 2020, 12:53:36 pm
One thing no one seems to mention...

The "thirsty" line is a derogatory hatefull little feminist tag aimed at... men. I have never seen it aimed at women.

So what does this say about the "message" of the game? Especially since the illustrations look quite often more like men in drag or trans men? Something about this just feels really...wrong?

Ive seen it used for women a lot actually...but it does just mean horny so its still a bit derogatory.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: HappyDaze on October 24, 2020, 01:51:50 pm
Or maybe he will just ignore your stupid attempt to get him to play into your game?

Oh look another GO GO SJW Ranger

If your going to call me out as a Fascist when someone else behaves worse than I do and do nothing then your a fucking hypocrite.

Then again you also stayed silent on the issue because like Fixable it's all about the carefully constructed personal narratives. Since NOTHING
 can go against said narratives it is to be summarily ignored.

Like Fixable your here to just troll and I am feeding and giving to much attention to a Troll. Why respond to such a stupidly transparent pathetic attempt at trolling.
Keep on ranting, shitstain, you crazy little bitch.

For what it's worth, I consider RPGnet to be totally full of shit and moderated to a crazy-ass level, so I don't know why you'd think I'm in favor of that.

What I do call out here are assholes like you. So that's my "narrative" you sad little fuckwit.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: HappyDaze on October 24, 2020, 01:56:01 pm
Well, you are putting too much (something?) into this. This thread is just a discussion made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to discuss RPGs post on this forum. Why in the world do you care?

Do yourself a favor and ignore the Troll it is better that way.

It's an attempt at censorship. The rpg is perfect because of reasons and feels so you and I need to shut the hell up and just accept it's perfection.
Hey asshole, telling others to ignore others isn't technically censorship, but it's in the same realm of shitty behavior. Anyone can ignore anyone they like based on their own choices, but if you can't let them make that choice without adding in your two cents, then you're in the same category as those you condemn.

And no, I'm not suggesting that others should ignore you either (but if they want to, I totally understand).
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 24, 2020, 02:35:48 pm
One thing no one seems to mention...

The "thirsty" line is a derogatory hatefull little feminist tag aimed at... men. I have never seen it aimed at women.

So what does this say about the "message" of the game? Especially since the illustrations look quite often more like men in drag or trans men? Something about this just feels really...wrong?

Well, that is what I'm talking about.

Here, compare the advertising for TSL to another game which created a safe space for SJWs, Blue Rose. The wording for Blue Rose was inoffensive and not antagonistic, it was written as an invitation to play the game. The wording for TSL reads like a agitator looking for a fight, deliberately provocative and antagonistic.

I don't get the feeling that TSL is trying to appeal to gamers, but activists.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 24, 2020, 04:56:37 pm
One thing no one seems to mention...

The "thirsty" line is a derogatory hatefull little feminist tag aimed at... men. I have never seen it aimed at women.

So what does this say about the "message" of the game? Especially since the illustrations look quite often more like men in drag or trans men? Something about this just feels really...wrong?

Well, that is what I'm talking about.

Here, compare the advertising for TSL to another game which created a safe space for SJWs, Blue Rose. The wording for Blue Rose was inoffensive and not antagonistic, it was written as an invitation to play the game. The wording for TSL reads like a agitator looking for a fight, deliberately provocative and antagonistic.

I don't get the feeling that TSL is trying to appeal to gamers, but activists.

Blue Rose wax not my cup of tea as an RPGs yet neither would I tell someone to not play it either. Then again it’s like Woke and SJW comic writers telling the fans to both go to hell and not read their comics. Then wonder why the comic industry is close to collapsing. Then blame it on the toxic fans. If  Evil Hat wants to come out swinging then don’t be surprised if they get kicked in the nads by some in the hobby
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 25, 2020, 07:40:26 pm
I am morbidly curious as to what an actual SJW adventure module would be like. I don't mean something trivial like tokenism or whatever, but that the events of the adventure and what the PCs are expected to do follows from SJW rhetoric.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 07:53:14 pm
I am morbidly curious as to what an actual SJW adventure module would be like. I don't mean something trivial like tokenism or whatever, but that the events of the adventure and what the PCs are expected to do follows from SJW rhetoric.
I would think that it would first require that the usual fantasy monsters are non-existent or, at best, very rare, so that they can focus on painting their own people as the greatest of monsters.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 25, 2020, 08:29:38 pm
Theres some on Drive-thru. They tend to be really ham handed.

They seem to love shaming people for liking something.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 26, 2020, 12:54:54 am
Here, compare the advertising for TSL to another game which created a safe space for SJWs, Blue Rose. The wording for Blue Rose was inoffensive and not antagonistic, it was written as an invitation to play the game. The wording for TSL reads like a agitator looking for a fight, deliberately provocative and antagonistic.
I agree that the Blue Rose advertising was not antagonistic.

But when it first came out, Blue Rose got a lot of flak from this forum. RPGPundit had numerous rants about (among other things) the "magic deer" and how the game was pushing a collectivist narrative. There were lots of threads of people full of criticism of it. When I created my Blue Rose web pages, I had a FAQ directed at the numerous criticisms of the game from this forum.

On the one hand, I'm glad to hear that positives about Blue Rose and it's marketing. But if it's marketing was positive, then why did it receive the criticism it did?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 26, 2020, 09:19:23 am
Here, compare the advertising for TSL to another game which created a safe space for SJWs, Blue Rose. The wording for Blue Rose was inoffensive and not antagonistic, it was written as an invitation to play the game. The wording for TSL reads like a agitator looking for a fight, deliberately provocative and antagonistic.
I agree that the Blue Rose advertising was not antagonistic.

But when it first came out, Blue Rose got a lot of flak from this forum. RPGPundit had numerous rants about (among other things) the "magic deer" and how the game was pushing a collectivist narrative. There were lots of threads of people full of criticism of it. When I created my Blue Rose web pages, I had a FAQ directed at the numerous criticisms of the game from this forum.

On the one hand, I'm glad to hear that positives about Blue Rose and it's marketing. But if it's marketing was positive, then why did it receive the criticism it did?

I'm not that familiar with Blue Rose or this forum's reaction to it. Could you give me a very brief summary?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Dimitrios on October 26, 2020, 10:49:08 am
I agree that the Blue Rose advertising was not antagonistic.

But when it first came out, Blue Rose got a lot of flak from this forum. RPGPundit had numerous rants about (among other things) the "magic deer" and how the game was pushing a collectivist narrative. There were lots of threads of people full of criticism of it. When I created my Blue Rose web pages, I had a FAQ directed at the numerous criticisms of the game from this forum.

On the one hand, I'm glad to hear that positives about Blue Rose and it's marketing. But if it's marketing was positive, then why did it receive the criticism it did?

But criticism of Blue Rose wasn't specific to this forum. I was still a regular reader of TBP when Blue Rose came out, and there were plenty of critics there as well. The magical deer whatever bothered some folks there. But mainly I think the issue was that Blue Rose is basically the RPG for Mercedes Lackey style fantasy, and that particular subgenre just rubs some people the wrong way.

Things were less "all culture wars all the time" back then, so it seemed to me just people expressing their tastes. Like someone saying that Star Wars flavored SF gaming is more fun than Traveller or vice versa.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 26, 2020, 02:11:25 pm
I was still a regular reader of TBP when Blue Rose came out, and there were plenty of critics there as well.

I was one of them. My personal objection was not so much the fact that the game's setting took a clear stance on the "correct" sexual morality of its universe -- as has been noted, this is part and parcel of the romantic fantasy genre, and anyone who knows the source material can plead no right to surprise about that -- but the degree to which the game material tended to browbeat you with it. As quoted in Dan Davenport's original review of the game:

"Blue Rose is very, very much about the acceptance of alternative sexual preferences. If this were simply a side-note to the setting as a whole, it really wouldn’t warrant mentioning; however, Blue Rose beats the reader over the head with its message of tolerance to the point of being cloying: a major god has a young male god as his gay lover and is the patron of gay couples, a mother in the game fiction prays that this god watch over her gay son and his lover, fully half of all Sea-Folk are gay, clothing styles are fully androgynous, and so on. Conversely, conservative religious values (represented by the Jarzoni) are objectively closed-minded and bad."

It's worth remembering that the game was originally published in 2005, ten years before Obergefell (we will pause a moment here for anyone who, like me, now abruptly feels depressingly old), so there's a certain earnestness to its advocacy that has suffered for being a little outdated since.

A more game-relevant criticism was that, again in keeping with the original source fantasy genre, the entire style and atmosphere of the game tended to exclude some of the most popular gaming PC tropes: Aldea was not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt Do'Urden could prosper much, because the stories of romantic fantasy tend to be highly character-centred and focused on personal growth through building relationships and nonviolent conflict resolution, with the action-adventure quotient being a distinctly secondary element at best.  There's clearly been enough of a market for this for the game to stay in print, but gamers not familiar with the source material can be frustrated by the deliberate shift in focus.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: TNMalt on October 26, 2020, 03:00:09 pm
Both tend to discourage wading through rivers of blood. The people I've played with over the years regardless of which way they swung would be considered extreme murderhobos by these settings. I'm not much better, as I don't mind making enemy mechs go stackpole next to hospitals.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 26, 2020, 10:46:50 pm
But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product.

Neither are the critics here. But we know that Evil Hat support Cancelling, and the people you're attacking here don't.

BTW do you think it's ok to refer to "Fascists & TERFs" in promotional material for a game? Or is it ok to criticise that? Personally I find it repulsive, so by extension I find the people who talk and think like that repulsive.

LOL I am attacking people for not sharing the same opinion as them? Are they attacking me because they don't share my opinion? Nobody is fucking attacking anyone here, though I guess you could say I am attacking you for your asinine claim that I am attacking someone :)

It's OK to criticize whatever the fuck you want to criticize, mang. Just don't be such a snowflake if someone is critical of your criticism.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 26, 2020, 10:49:27 pm
Where are they telling you that you cannot criticize their product? Where are they doing ANY of what you just described concerning this product?

I don't respect anyone whether they be rpg creators or not who talk in SJW buzzwords and/or whose game descriptions come across as some virtue signalling woke manifesto

When a posters says "why are you bothered by this" my response is and will always be "why do you care and we are allowed to criticize an rpg". Followed by "just like your entitled to your opinion on the product so am, mind your own damn business". Sorry I ain't giving anyone an echo chamber simply because they might be offended at myself and others here having a difference of opinion. 

Not to mention you are not some new poster here. You know full well something like this was going to get a reaction, most likely a negative one. Being disingenuous and pretending to be purposefully naive at the reaction this product is getting here. Your not fooling anyone here. We are not very Woke or SJW here and you know it. What other reaction were you expecting besides mockery and derision towards the product.

I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 26, 2020, 10:53:32 pm
Greetings!

Oh, the whining hypocrisy and pearl-clutching! What would people be REEEing about if some company was to produce and market an RPG, entitled:

"Hungry Straight Hippos!"

Marketed with the admonition that "If you are a Communist, an SJW, or LGBTQ, you are not welcome to play this game. Pull your head out of your ass before sharing a game table with others."

There would be *oceans* of tears and gnashing of teeth, with shrill demands that such a company or author be cancelled and exposed as a terrible monster.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

But I feel like you're ignoring the elephant in the room with this example. Let's pretend someone did do exactly that and made that product marketed that way. Would you have a philosophical objection to them doing that? I mean, I would be just as OK with that as I am with this. My view is pretty consistent here. Is yours?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 26, 2020, 10:58:23 pm
I'm not that familiar with Blue Rose or this forum's reaction to it. Could you give me a very brief summary?
Sure. Blue Rose was an RPG in the genre of "romantic fantasy" - inspired most particularly by the fantasy novels of Mercedes Lackey, along with Diane Duane and Tamora Pierce. It first came out in 2005, and it was the first game to feature the "True20" system - a variant of D20.

It was a technically post-apocalyptic, but it featured a central nation (Aldea) that had a limited monarchy or partial democracy. It didn't have elves or dwarves, but instead had things like talking wolves and horses (Rhydan), sea-people, and other non-standard races. I still have up my old resource pages on the original Blue Rose:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/bluerose/

I have an essay there about addressing a number of common criticisms of Blue Rose from here ("Does the Golden Harte trample on role-playing?").


My personal objection was not so much the fact that the game's setting took a clear stance on the "correct" sexual morality of its universe -- as has been noted, this is part and parcel of the romantic fantasy genre, and anyone who knows the source material can plead no right to surprise about that -- but the degree to which the game material tended to browbeat you with it. As quoted in Dan Davenport's original review of the game:

"Blue Rose is very, very much about the acceptance of alternative sexual preferences. If this were simply a side-note to the setting as a whole, it really wouldn’t warrant mentioning; however, Blue Rose beats the reader over the head with its message of tolerance to the point of being cloying
There are a handful of references to homosexuality in a 192-page book. I give an exact breakdown of all of them in the essay I link above. If you find the references cloying, that's a matter of taste - but I can't see how those handful of references make playing the game *about* sexual preferences.


A more game-relevant criticism was that, again in keeping with the original source fantasy genre, the entire style and atmosphere of the game tended to exclude some of the most popular gaming PC tropes: Aldea was not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt Do'Urden could prosper much
So characters who are from a different genre can't prosper? That's like saying that the DC Universe is not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt could prosper - because they'd be arrested by police and/or stopped by superheroes from their rampages. But I don't think that's a valid criticism of DC Heroes as a game system.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 26, 2020, 11:15:29 pm
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

I don't like it because I am not a fan of an rpg company adding what amounts to a SJW Woke Manifesto to sell a product. I don' t care if Evil Hat rpg had been every person self-identifying as a car seat or a cork in a champagne bottle as a character or concept. Them excluding some gamers while trying to be "inclusive" does not impress either.

Hopefully this clears up your confusion. If not continue to pretend to be both clueless and disingenuous as your still not fooling anyone here.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Mistwell on October 26, 2020, 11:48:46 pm
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

I don't like it because I am not a fan of an rpg company adding what amounts to a SJW Woke Manifesto to sell a product. I don' t care if Evil Hat rpg had been every person self-identifying as a car seat or a cork in a champagne bottle as a character or concept. Them excluding some gamers while trying to be "inclusive" does not impress either.

Hopefully this clears up your confusion. If not continue to pretend to be both clueless and disingenuous as your still not fooling anyone here.

Oh for fuck's sake, what exactly is it you think I think I'd gain by "fooling" people by...asking why they believe what they believe?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 27, 2020, 12:01:22 am
There are a handful of references to homosexuality in a 192-page book.

Which amounts to far more, and far more thematically important (there are two gods of the setting's religion dedicated to the topic, and it's listed as one of the major philosophical differences driving the two major "good" nations of the setting apart), than any comparable major commercial product of the time.

Nor, I suspect, would the game's creators have described those design choices as some kind of minor or incidental, easily-ignored optional element, because they are certainly not intended so in the source genre.

Quote
So characters who are from a different genre can't prosper? That's like saying that the DC Universe is not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt could prosper - because they'd be arrested by police and/or stopped by superheroes from their rampages. But I don't think that's a valid criticism of DC Heroes as a game system.

People are far less likely to try to run Conan in DC Heroes, because they don't both share the label "fantasy" and a set of rules largely inspired by D&D.

But even in DC Heroes, there are places within the world and styles within the game that make it possible and viable to run, shall we say, "less traditionally heroic" adventurers and adventures (cf. John Constantine). Blue Rose, from my observation, provides much less support for this kind of thing, not just in terms of rule style but in terms of setting availability -- there is nowhere in Aldea that reminds me of Greyhawk, Sharn or Waterdeep, for example; even the capital of Aldis tends to come off in its promotional material as something more like post-Napoleon III Paris than Imperial Rome or Victorian London. This lack of stylistic flexibility isn't always as apparent as it could stand to be.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 27, 2020, 12:59:10 am
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Thought I'd voiced mine before on this but here goes again.

Its the same objection I have to any "woke" material and especially to hateful "woke" statements and accusations as in their promotionals. This applies to any company that uses similar low stunts like this. Its the same reason I have a particular hate for Mearls and others of his ilk after he "fired" players from D&D. Or how 4e D&D had to piss on players of prior editions, or how WOTC has slapped a great big "WACIST!" label on all older product. And every other stunt companies and designers have pulled in the last 10 years.

And I particularly despise these things when all they are is an outrage marketing gag to get free advertising.

If you have to attack someone to promote your product. Then your product is not dirt. It is less than dirt.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 27, 2020, 01:23:55 am
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Thought I'd voiced mine before on this but here goes again.

Its the same objection I have to any "woke" material and especially to hateful "woke" statements and accusations as in their promotionals. This applies to any company that uses similar low stunts like this. Its the same reason I have a particular hate for Mearls and others of his ilk after he "fired" players from D&D. Or how 4e D&D had to piss on players of prior editions, or how WOTC has slapped a great big "WACIST!" label on all older product. And every other stunt companies and designers have pulled in the last 10 years.

And I particularly despise these things when all they are is an outrage marketing gag to get free advertising.

If you have to attack someone to promote your product. Then your product is not dirt. It is less than dirt.

Greetings!

Well said, Omega! I agree entirely!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Flash_Gorgon on October 27, 2020, 01:29:10 am
Sheridan Le Fanu did it better in 1872.   :)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Kyle Aaron on October 27, 2020, 02:27:19 am
These goons are way behind. 12 year old boys have been using D&D to play lesbianstripperninjas since at least 1983.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ShieldWife on October 27, 2020, 04:36:29 am
Sure. Blue Rose was an RPG in the genre of "romantic fantasy" - inspired most particularly by the fantasy novels of Mercedes Lackey, along with Diane Duane and Tamora Pierce. It first came out in 2005, and it was the first game to feature the "True20" system - a variant of D20.

It was a technically post-apocalyptic, but it featured a central nation (Aldea) that had a limited monarchy or partial democracy. It didn't have elves or dwarves, but instead had things like talking wolves and horses (Rhydan), sea-people, and other non-standard races. I still have up my old resource pages on the original Blue Rose:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/bluerose/

I have an essay there about addressing a number of common criticisms of Blue Rose from here ("Does the Golden Harte trample on role-playing?").

Thanks. I read about it on your linked site.

I don’t necessarily find that objectionable. I actually used to read a fair amount of Mercedes Lackey and Tamora Pierce when I was younger. There are a few qualities to the setting that aren’t my idea, though most published D&D settings have such qualities too. The Golden Heart chooses the king, but in standard D&D every has alignments that can be easily detected and gods grant powers to their followers, both of which are going to massively change the way politics in conducted. I’m not really that much into Old School either.

Aldis seems a little bit too perfect from a left wing perspective, which is not my ideal, but as I mentioned, D&D settings tend to have that too.

Of course, if people don’t like the game or it’s setting, they are free to say so, just as any of us should voice our opinions on games we like or dislike. I’m not sure how much I would like the game if I were to investigate it further, but whatever it’s merits and flaws, it’s certainly better than the designers telling me that I suck and can’t play their game.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Opaopajr on October 27, 2020, 05:55:41 am
My goodness, at least get them a wine cooler already!   :'(  (So thirsty!...)

One of the best advice I took to heart from IN SJG was (paraphrasing): "Hell makes for great adventures because menace and malice is everywhere. Heaven, not so much, because then it would go against its definition of perfection. Disagreements and maybe some politics, yes, but nothing that could be sustained for long."

Point being is polemical art usually forgets the 'art' part in its struggle to maintain polemic purity -- which is why it often fails in its craft. It has to keep a dogmatic other that is often out of the scope of visbility, let alone play. It fails to emulate any of its influences (e.g. Mercedes Lackey-esque romanticism) because things are too safe, victorious, infallible. At that point, with little to no risk, what is there to play?

It is an ideological rigidity that smothers its own creativity, and that is sad to me. But may they go forth and show everyone wrong with an untapped vein of playable awesome.  :-* I just reserve my doubts.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Slambo on October 27, 2020, 10:43:24 am
There are a handful of references to homosexuality in a 192-page book.

Which amounts to far more, and far more thematically important (there are two gods of the setting's religion dedicated to the topic, and it's listed as one of the major philosophical differences driving the two major "good" nations of the setting apart), than any comparable major commercial product of the time.

Nor, I suspect, would the game's creators have described those design choices as some kind of minor or incidental, easily-ignored optional element, because they are certainly not intended so in the source genre.

Quote
So characters who are from a different genre can't prosper? That's like saying that the DC Universe is not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt could prosper - because they'd be arrested by police and/or stopped by superheroes from their rampages. But I don't think that's a valid criticism of DC Heroes as a game system.

People are far less likely to try to run Conan in DC Heroes, because they don't both share the label "fantasy" and a set of rules largely inspired by D&D.

But even in DC Heroes, there are places within the world and styles within the game that make it possible and viable to run, shall we say, "less traditionally heroic" adventurers and adventures (cf. John Constantine). Blue Rose, from my observation, provides much less support for this kind of thing, not just in terms of rule style but in terms of setting availability -- there is nowhere in Aldea that reminds me of Greyhawk, Sharn or Waterdeep, for example; even the capital of Aldis tends to come off in its promotional material as something more like post-Napoleon III Paris than Imperial Rome or Victorian London. This lack of stylistic flexibility isn't always as apparent as it could stand to be.

Funny thing, Conan is an Avenger now, and DC hasn its own sword and sorcery characters in theirnprehistory that often crossed over via time magic shenanigans in ye olden times. I realize ot doesnt really refute jhkim but its just funny to me.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 27, 2020, 11:21:23 am
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Thought I'd voiced mine before on this but here goes again.

Its the same objection I have to any "woke" material and especially to hateful "woke" statements and accusations as in their promotionals. This applies to any company that uses similar low stunts like this. Its the same reason I have a particular hate for Mearls and others of his ilk after he "fired" players from D&D. Or how 4e D&D had to piss on players of prior editions, or how WOTC has slapped a great big "WACIST!" label on all older product. And every other stunt companies and designers have pulled in the last 10 years.

And I particularly despise these things when all they are is an outrage marketing gag to get free advertising.

If you have to attack someone to promote your product. Then your product is not dirt. It is less than dirt.

That's the thing about Mistwell's intrusion into this topic. He's like "I'm totally not being disingenuous at all, guys! I've no idea WTF you're talking about. I'M JUST ASKING FOR...REASONS!"

Meanwhile there's like 17+ pages of "reasons" in this thread that have been hatched out over and over again. People have brought up the adversarial, ideologically purist marketing like three dozen times. A few also criticized the fugly has hell art as well. I may have mentioned something about the silly game play concept at one point (which revolves around "redeeming" lesbian adversaries, rather than killing them, in order to "kiss" them *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*), but by and large there have been pages upon pages criticizing the marketing. Yet somehow totally not disingenuous Mistwell has managed to miss that.

These goons are way behind. 12 year old boys have been using D&D to play lesbianstripperninjas since at least 1983.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/aa0f60c2ce94b7980cf2107ca9303b3c/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 27, 2020, 12:13:14 pm
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Thought I'd voiced mine before on this but here goes again.


We all laid out our thoughts and opinions earlier in the thread. Mistwell just seems to have jumped in without reading up, and made some dumb ass statements.

I bet he's the type who comes in the middle of a movie and starts bugging everyone else asking questions about what happened earlier in the film. :D
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 27, 2020, 12:16:15 pm
Quote from: jhkim
So characters who are from a different genre can't prosper? That's like saying that the DC Universe is not a world where characters like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Drizzt could prosper - because they'd be arrested by police and/or stopped by superheroes from their rampages. But I don't think that's a valid criticism of DC Heroes as a game system.
But even in DC Heroes, there are places within the world and styles within the game that make it possible and viable to run, shall we say, "less traditionally heroic" adventurers and adventures (cf. John Constantine). Blue Rose, from my observation, provides much less support for this kind of thing, not just in terms of rule style but in terms of setting availability -- there is nowhere in Aldea that reminds me of Greyhawk, Sharn or Waterdeep, for example; even the capital of Aldis tends to come off in its promotional material as something more like post-Napoleon III Paris than Imperial Rome or Victorian London. This lack of stylistic flexibility isn't always as apparent as it could stand to be.
First of all, I think judging *either* DC Heroes *or* Blue Rose based on how well they support Conan adventures is utterly ridiculous.

Second of all, if I wanted to run a Conan game - and my only two choices were DC Heroes or Blue Rose, then Blue Rose has far more support for it. It's not anywhere close to a contest. There are monsters detailed to fight, evil cultists, undead armies, and lots of other ready-made elements that support Conan adventures. I agree that there isn't a city like Greyhawk or Waterdeep detailed in the Blue Rose setting - but there are lots of other hooks for sword-and-sorcery type adventure. I could have a pirate Conan game set in the Scatterstar Archipelago, for example - as Conan had a pirate career. I could have a more pure monster-killing game set in Kern as he fights a guerrilla war on the Lich-King. I could have wild plains-riding adventures in Rezea. Or I could have him join the armies in Jarzon in demon-fighting.

While it is technically possible for Conan to be supported in the DC Comics setting (given thousands of comics published over decades), there is almost nothing to support Conan-style adventures in the basic game of DC Heroes.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 27, 2020, 01:14:58 pm
That's the thing about Mistwell's intrusion into this topic. He's like "I'm totally not being disingenuous at all, guys! I've no idea WTF you're talking about. I'M JUST ASKING FOR...REASONS!"

Meanwhile there's like 17+ pages of "reasons" in this thread that have been hatched out over and over again. People have brought up the adversarial, ideologically purist marketing like three dozen times. A few also criticized the fugly has hell art as well. I may have mentioned something about the silly game play concept at one point (which revolves around "redeeming" lesbian adversaries, rather than killing them, in order to "kiss" them *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*), but by and large there have been pages upon pages criticizing the marketing. Yet somehow totally not disingenuous Mistwell has managed to miss that.

Agreed and seconded and why I called him out for being disingenuous. either he could not be bothered to read the entire thread or simply pretending to be blind. What gets me his how he gets annoyed with his pretending to be stupid and clueless. It's no longer fooling anyone anymore. Quite frankly being even more stale than year old bread past it's expiry date. Then he has the stones to get angry when called out on it.  In any case he is the one coming off as a fake and naive clueless. He probably thinks he is being smart when veterans like ourselves of this board can see him coming a galaxy away.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 27, 2020, 01:50:44 pm
I think judging *either* DC Heroes *or* Blue Rose based on how well they support Conan adventures is utterly ridiculous.

You're missing my point. "No place for Conan in Aldea" isn't about specific characters in specific games, it's shorthand for my primary criticism of BR as a commercial gaming product: Put as directly as possible, I don't think the core tropes of romantic fantasy as a literary genre translate particularly well to what, in my observation and experience, most RPG'ers actually want out of their games, or to what the nature of games as games facilitates very well.

Romantic fantasy stories are ultimately centered on relationships and personal growth, and the vast majority of the genre's core dramatic conflicts tend to be internal, emotional and interpersonal; Mercedes Lackey's fantasy, for example, is notable for how seldom actual physical violence is depicted "on stage" (though the fallout afterwards is often examined with respectable directness). Success and failure are less about whether a character beats a challenge or wins a conflict through skill, power or cleverness than about whether he makes the right choice in the first place. By contrast, anything structured as a game is, by definition, an exercise in teamwork manoeuvring within a rules system to accomplish common goals and victories, which lends itself far better to the simulation of external physical conflicts -- action scenes, fights, clever use of spells and powers, etc. -- than to the kinds of drama favoured by the source material.  (You can see a parallel phenomenon with the World of Darkness games: no matter how hard the creators tried to build a game that encouraged deep, angsty, emotional roleplaying of characters facing a variety of dooms, in practice the games had a tremendous tendency to turn into, as I once heard them described, "Hammer-flavoured superheroes".)

To sum up, it's less about complaining that characters of one genre don't fit in another and more about concluding that this particular genre itself works less well as an RPG milieu than might be hoped, because of the fundamental nature of RPGs themselves. Nor is this limited to Blue Rose specifically; I have argued before that any game based on the Chronicles of Narnia, or on the stories of Thomas Ligotti (both ideas I've seen proposed) would have the same problem -- those stories, or at least the really important parts thereof, are ultimately not about the kinds of conflicts or challenges that lend themselves well to rule-based gaming.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Dimitrios on October 27, 2020, 02:58:54 pm
any game based on the Chronicles of Narnia, or on the stories of Thomas Ligotti (both ideas I've seen proposed) would have the same problem -- those stories, or at least the really important parts thereof, are ultimately not about the kinds of conflicts or challenges that lend themselves well to rule-based gaming.

This reminds me of the complaints I used to see about Call of Cthulhu that it "didn't recreate Lovecraft's stories". My response to that is "why would I want to role play those?". The brilliance of CoC is taking Lovecraft's (and others') work and finding the aspects of it that do work well as an rpg.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 27, 2020, 03:48:17 pm
You can see a parallel phenomenon with the World of Darkness games: no matter how hard the creators tried to build a game that encouraged deep, angsty, emotional roleplaying of characters facing a variety of dooms, in practice the games had a tremendous tendency to turn into, as I once heard them described, "Hammer-flavoured superheroes".
That's part of what drove me away from the games. The personality mechanics were ham-fisted and unfun to actually play (and I say this as someone who once fervently tried to defend them against detractors back when I still cared). It became a running joke even among some of the freelancers that "you stole a candybar? now you develop schizophrenia!" (this wasn't actually possible in the rules btw, but it goes to show how much people actually cared). The official solutions were to provide shallow cosmetic changes and various workarounds so that the players could more easily play mass murdering psychopaths without suffering psychological consequences (the irony here is that being a mass murdering psychopath is in and of itself a severe psychological problem). It would have been simpler to just remove those mechanics and let groups play the murderous psychopaths they obviously wanted to play as but were too pretentious to admit.

Roleplaying by nature allows you to immerse yourself in a setting to a much greater degree than any movie, book, comic, video game, etc. It is the ultimate immersive sim, at least until we develop VR with dynamically generated worlds. I find it mildly frustrating that RPGs (and video games in general) lend themselves best to violent slaughter simulators regardless of how fervently designers try to steer away from that. Yet I find it extremely frustrating when designers implement stick mechanics in an attempt to deter such behavior rather than carrot mechanics, or even letting groups decide on their own whether they want to play angsty romance fests or not.

By contrast, one of the most sage passages I have ever read in RPGs regarding the subject of emo-roleplay are these from Green Ronin's Fang & Fury (regarding vampire-centric campaign options):
Quote
Decadent Cruelty
Not all roleplaying campaigns have to be about something. In this option the PCs are scions who live at the top of society, dispensing agony and ecstasy to mortals in their care and living an existence of endless debauchery. They create blood puppets for sport and order them off balconies when they cease to be amusing; they invent whole new sports and pastimes to humiliate their mortal thralls, treating them as riding beasts, musical instruments, or parlor game pieces; and they never, ever get caught.
In this sort of campaign, toss the standard rewards out the window and instead orient the game around parlor politics and the minor contests of influence likely to occupy immortal sadists. Each session has its prince and its goat, with plenty of minor nobles in between, all squabbling for influence. While d20 System rules are still used to resolve skill checks and combat, a card game like “Presidents and Assholes” may be better suited to resolving the outcome of complex political struggles. For example, the PCs may be jockeying for ownership of the local orphanage and the superb dining to be found therein. Their politicking toward this end may be expressed by playing a single hand of cards to determine the relative placement of each PC in the race.
GM’s Option
Half the fun of being a vampire is having minions. Consider removing the negative level penalties for creating blood puppets and vampiric thralls, and thus encourage PCs to gather twisted courtiers, pets, and sycophants to their sides.
Quote
Tortured Angst
Like the “decadent cruelty” option given above, this campaign is at its best when plots and goals are kept to the background. The PCs are decaying antiheroes sentenced to an eternal unlife of misery and self-loathing, and they spend much of their time plumbing the depths of sadness and lamenting the sorry state of their existence.
Despite the hollow-sounding premise, this “without a net” style of storytelling can develop into remarkable interactions between experienced roleplayers. It is not recommended for beginners, or for those who feel that a plot-driven narrative is vital to a campaign.
GM’s Option
Resist the temptation to let this game bog down in atmosphere. Force your players into situations of conflict at regular intervals: Without dramatic tension, such campaigns tend to run dry quickly. Also make sure that more flamboyant players don’t steal the limelight from shyer members of the gaming group. Take time to plan scenarios that let everyone have fun.

IMO, Green Ronin had better advice in these passages than the White Wolf games ever did in their three decades of existence. As always, YMMV.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 27, 2020, 03:52:06 pm
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Thought I'd voiced mine before on this but here goes again.

Its the same objection I have to any "woke" material and especially to hateful "woke" statements and accusations as in their promotionals. This applies to any company that uses similar low stunts like this. Its the same reason I have a particular hate for Mearls and others of his ilk after he "fired" players from D&D. Or how 4e D&D had to piss on players of prior editions, or how WOTC has slapped a great big "WACIST!" label on all older product. And every other stunt companies and designers have pulled in the last 10 years.

And I particularly despise these things when all they are is an outrage marketing gag to get free advertising.

If you have to attack someone to promote your product. Then your product is not dirt. It is less than dirt.

That's the thing about Mistwell's intrusion into this topic. He's like "I'm totally not being disingenuous at all, guys! I've no idea WTF you're talking about. I'M JUST ASKING FOR...REASONS!"

Meanwhile there's like 17+ pages of "reasons" in this thread that have been hatched out over and over again. People have brought up the adversarial, ideologically purist marketing like three dozen times. A few also criticized the fugly has hell art as well. I may have mentioned something about the silly game play concept at one point (which revolves around "redeeming" lesbian adversaries, rather than killing them, in order to "kiss" them *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*), but by and large there have been pages upon pages criticizing the marketing. Yet somehow totally not disingenuous Mistwell has managed to miss that.

These goons are way behind. 12 year old boys have been using D&D to play lesbianstripperninjas since at least 1983.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/aa0f60c2ce94b7980cf2107ca9303b3c/tenor.gif)

Greetings!

The *GAMEPLAY*--wait, wait, VisionStorm! I must have been sleeping and missed that class. Can you elaborate for me? Kissing and no doubt much more--dealing with Lesbian adversaries....redeeming them? WTF?

Who are the Lesbian adversaries? Do Lesbians fight different kinds of monsters and villains than Conan the Barbarian, or Sir Lancelot of the Round Table?

How are such adversaries "Redeemed"? Redeemed from what, and TO what?

This game sounds so fucking retarded. Mistwell must have been eating too many Cheetos or something not to see this truth. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 27, 2020, 03:52:16 pm
any game based on the Chronicles of Narnia, or on the stories of Thomas Ligotti (both ideas I've seen proposed) would have the same problem -- those stories, or at least the really important parts thereof, are ultimately not about the kinds of conflicts or challenges that lend themselves well to rule-based gaming.

This reminds me of the complaints I used to see about Call of Cthulhu that it "didn't recreate Lovecraft's stories". My response to that is "why would I want to role play those?". The brilliance of CoC is taking Lovecraft's (and others') work and finding the aspects of it that do work well as an rpg.
Don't typical CoC campaigns end with total party kills? I'm pretty sure most Lovecraftian stories end with the protagonist either dying or going crazy, so that's hardly "didn't recreate Lovecraft's stories."

There are no aspects of Lovecraftian fiction that work well as an RPG, because typical RPGs aren't nihilistic horror stories. I'm pretty sure we already had at least one thread complaining that modern Lovecraftian games are just typical RPGs with a purely cosmetic Lovecraftian skin and don't actually have anything to do with the themes of Lovecraftian fiction.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Bloodborne is a Lovecraftian video game, at least if we count the endings.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 27, 2020, 04:12:12 pm
I think judging *either* DC Heroes *or* Blue Rose based on how well they support Conan adventures is utterly ridiculous.

You're missing my point. "No place for Conan in Aldea" isn't about specific characters in specific games, it's shorthand for my primary criticism of BR as a commercial gaming product: Put as directly as possible, I don't think the core tropes of romantic fantasy as a literary genre translate particularly well to what, in my observation and experience, most RPG'ers actually want out of their games, or to what the nature of games as games facilitates very well.

Romantic fantasy stories are ultimately centered on relationships and personal growth, and the vast majority of the genre's core dramatic conflicts tend to be internal, emotional and interpersonal; Mercedes Lackey's fantasy, for example, is notable for how seldom actual physical violence is depicted "on stage" (though the fallout afterwards is often examined with respectable directness). Success and failure are less about whether a character beats a challenge or wins a conflict through skill, power or cleverness than about whether he makes the right choice in the first place. By contrast, anything structured as a game is, by definition, an exercise in teamwork manoeuvring within a rules system to accomplish common goals and victories, which lends itself far better to the simulation of external physical conflicts -- action scenes, fights, clever use of spells and powers, etc. -- than to the kinds of drama favoured by the source material.  (You can see a parallel phenomenon with the World of Darkness games: no matter how hard the creators tried to build a game that encouraged deep, angsty, emotional roleplaying of characters facing a variety of dooms, in practice the games had a tremendous tendency to turn into, as I once heard them described, "Hammer-flavoured superheroes".)

To sum up, it's less about complaining that characters of one genre don't fit in another and more about concluding that this particular genre itself works less well as an RPG milieu than might be hoped, because of the fundamental nature of RPGs themselves. Nor is this limited to Blue Rose specifically; I have argued before that any game based on the Chronicles of Narnia, or on the stories of Thomas Ligotti (both ideas I've seen proposed) would have the same problem -- those stories, or at least the really important parts thereof, are ultimately not about the kinds of conflicts or challenges that lend themselves well to rule-based gaming.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, Stephen. I agree. The foundational premises of Mercedes Lackey, et al, romantic fantasy books are primarily internal conflicts, romance, and relationships. The whole subject matter is problematic for 90% or more of gamers.

I've seen this kind of thing play out right in my own campaigns. Two of the players--both women--want to run their characters dancing about the city, pursuing their lovers, fucking, engaging in intrigue, and just swimming in the innuendo and nuances of emotionally charged relationships. Two other players--also women--are often on the fence; they want to go kill orcs and jump into heroic deeds and different kinds of exploration and politics, but they are also very much tempted to join the other two girls in partying, fucking, and emotional drama. Then, there are three men, that want to kill and loot.

The men complain pointedly about how the women--especially the two deeply focused on romance, sex, and emotional drama--tend to ruin the game for them, because they make the game center on things that just don't interest them. But the girls love it.

*shrugs*

It's a very different style of game play--and I agree, in general, the very basis of it isn't really suited to adversarial challenges, or groups at all. It's meant for one person having sex and emotional drama with one or more other characters, sometimes joined by a companion. Having a group of five or six people all gathered together....not so much. It's very challenging to organize and pull off, because having more than one or two people simply creates too many divergent and incompatible stories and goals. Essentially, the primary difference between a novel and a game. Lackey is great for novels, but far less so for a roleplaying game, despite some people's fervent desires to translate the genre of books into a game play experience.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 27, 2020, 05:24:38 pm
I think judging *either* DC Heroes *or* Blue Rose based on how well they support Conan adventures is utterly ridiculous.
You're missing my point. "No place for Conan in Aldea" isn't about specific characters in specific games, it's shorthand for my primary criticism of BR as a commercial gaming product: Put as directly as possible, I don't think the core tropes of romantic fantasy as a literary genre translate particularly well to what, in my observation and experience, most RPG'ers actually want out of their games, or to what the nature of games as games facilitates very well.

Romantic fantasy stories are ultimately centered on relationships and personal growth, and the vast majority of the genre's core dramatic conflicts tend to be internal, emotional and interpersonal; Mercedes Lackey's fantasy, for example, is notable for how seldom actual physical violence is depicted "on stage" (though the fallout afterwards is often examined with respectable directness). Success and failure are less about whether a character beats a challenge or wins a conflict through skill, power or cleverness than about whether he makes the right choice in the first place.
Excellent commentary, Stephen. I agree. The foundational premises of Mercedes Lackey, et al, romantic fantasy books are primarily internal conflicts, romance, and relationships. The whole subject matter is problematic for 90% or more of gamers.

OK, I think I understand your point here a little better, Stephen. However, I think the example of Conan still seems silly.

1) You claim that Blue Rose doesn't provide what most RPGers want out of their games -- and I think that's true. Blue Rose isn't written for "most RPGers", nor should it be. There already exists an RPG for the large majority of gamers - that's Dungeons & Dragons. Other RPGs like Blue Rose should *not* be written to do exactly what D&D does - they should be written for the minority of players who want to try something different. Games like Ars Magica or Call of Cthulhu do things very differently, and I think that's a good thing.

The question is, is Blue Rose a fun game to play for the 5% or less of gamers who really want to try something in the genre of Mercedes Lackey and similar authors?

2) I disagree with your characterization of romantic fantasy. I haven't read that much Mercedes Lackey - only the Exile series in Valdemar. But I've read a lot of Tamora Pierce. Exile's Honor has less violence than Conan stories, but it has more violence than Tolkien. Exile's Honor has more violence than The Fellowship of the Ring. It has fights and assassination attempts, and concludes with a climactic battle. Alberich is far more of a fighter than Frodo or Sam. Yes, there is a storyline of internal growth -- but the same thing is true in Tolkien, where Frodo's personal struggle with the Ring and his friendship with Sam is a central to the books.

Protector of the Small by Tamora Pierce is one of my favorite fantasy series of all time, and while again, it's less violent than Conan - it's still very much about external threats. It's a coming-of-age story, with Kel who is a very action-oriented jock who grows to turn the tide in Tortall's war.

Of course, D&D games are different than Tolkien's writing - but then, Blue Rose adventures don't have to be exactly like Mercedes Lackey. In my Blue Rose mini-campaign, I drew in a bunch of inspirations - including Scooby Doo. I didn't end up running much more of Blue Rose, but it seemed to me just as workable as a dozen other RPGs. Not every RPG should be about Conanesque monster-killing.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 27, 2020, 05:31:30 pm
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Thought I'd voiced mine before on this but here goes again.

Its the same objection I have to any "woke" material and especially to hateful "woke" statements and accusations as in their promotionals. This applies to any company that uses similar low stunts like this. Its the same reason I have a particular hate for Mearls and others of his ilk after he "fired" players from D&D. Or how 4e D&D had to piss on players of prior editions, or how WOTC has slapped a great big "WACIST!" label on all older product. And every other stunt companies and designers have pulled in the last 10 years.

And I particularly despise these things when all they are is an outrage marketing gag to get free advertising.

If you have to attack someone to promote your product. Then your product is not dirt. It is less than dirt.

That's the thing about Mistwell's intrusion into this topic. He's like "I'm totally not being disingenuous at all, guys! I've no idea WTF you're talking about. I'M JUST ASKING FOR...REASONS!"

Meanwhile there's like 17+ pages of "reasons" in this thread that have been hatched out over and over again. People have brought up the adversarial, ideologically purist marketing like three dozen times. A few also criticized the fugly has hell art as well. I may have mentioned something about the silly game play concept at one point (which revolves around "redeeming" lesbian adversaries, rather than killing them, in order to "kiss" them *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*), but by and large there have been pages upon pages criticizing the marketing. Yet somehow totally not disingenuous Mistwell has managed to miss that.

These goons are way behind. 12 year old boys have been using D&D to play lesbianstripperninjas since at least 1983.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/aa0f60c2ce94b7980cf2107ca9303b3c/tenor.gif)

Greetings!

The *GAMEPLAY*--wait, wait, VisionStorm! I must have been sleeping and missed that class. Can you elaborate for me? Kissing and no doubt much more--dealing with Lesbian adversaries....redeeming them? WTF?

Who are the Lesbian adversaries? Do Lesbians fight different kinds of monsters and villains than Conan the Barbarian, or Sir Lancelot of the Round Table?

How are such adversaries "Redeemed"? Redeemed from what, and TO what?

This game sounds so fucking retarded. Mistwell must have been eating too many Cheetos or something not to see this truth. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't know the specifics about action resolution or how fighting and adversaries work, but based on the KS description...

Quote
Thirsty Sword Lesbians by April Kit Walsh is a roleplaying game that celebrates the love, power, and existence of queer people—specifically queer people with swords and a lot of feelings. Flirting, sword-fighting, and barbed zingers all mix together in a system designed for both narrative drama and player safety. This innovative take on the Powered by the Apocalypse engine is a breeze to learn and ensures that no matter how the dice fall, something interesting happens to move the story forward.

In this game, you will solve problems with wit, empathy, and style, fight when something is worth fighting for, and redeem (or seduce) at least a few of your adversaries. You’re part of a community that embodies important ideals and you’ll strive to protect it and make your world better.

Play as one of nine character types: Beast, Chosen, Devoted, Infamous, Nature Witch, Scoundrel, Seeker, Spooky Witch, and Trickster. Each explores a particular emotional conflict that drives the drama and shapes your character’s story. Are you a Beast, faced with the dilemma of expressing your inner truth versus fitting in to a society that demands you conform? A Devoted, who sacrifices for others while struggling to care for yourself? A Trickster, who craves closeness but fears vulnerability? In long-term play, you may even resolve your initial arc and advance into a different playbook as you continue to change and grow, facing new challenges.


So the game apparently emphasizes flirting, witty one liners or "barbed zingers" and resolving emotional conflicts and other story-focused stuff over combat. They don't provide much detail about what types of adversaries you face, but the rules supposedly provide "robust guidance and support" for making "appealing adversaries" (whatever that's supposed to mean)...

Quote
Thirsty Sword Lesbians provides clear, robust guidance and support for running the game, including how to make appealing adversaries, set the tone, structure play, and create a safe environment at the table. Handy reference sheets help you narrate appropriate twists and drama on the fly, depending on the feelings and character types you have in play.

Basically it's a touchy-feely story game about "oh, so random!" stuff going on. I'm not even sure what the setting is suposed to be about, but the world is so focused they include, not one, but six different settings in a 224 (approx.) page book (I'm sure they're all well detailed with that type of page count  ::) ).

Quote
For even more inspiration, it features The Starcross Galaxy campaign setting along with five more settings from these contributing authors:

  • Lesbeans Coffehouse by Dominique Dickey
  • Neon City 2099 by Jamila Nedjadi
  • The Three Orders of Ardor by Whitney Delaglio
  • Les Violettes Dangereuses by Jonaya Kemper
  • Yuisa Revolution by Alexis Sara

We also provide ample guidance on how to create your own tales of fighting with swords and falling in love, along with a world building worksheet, variant rules, and a set of starting scenario seeds to play with. Because the game focuses on feelings and relationships, it’s a lens you can use to play in a variety of genres. If you like slashfic of characters with swords, you’ll love this game.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 27, 2020, 05:51:09 pm
Thanks for the synopsis VS. Looks like an rpg destined to be played at a very few select tables lol.

Hell most of my players and others too would laugh at the KS description of the rpg. Empathy seriously LOL.The rpg makes little sense and it should be could a called Safe Zone the rpg. I thought seducing an npc or enemy is wrong. Given how many woke SJW pearl clutch and toss their hand against their collective heads when it comes to Charm magic in rpgs. Saying it is physical assault yet we have an rpg whose main purpose is to seduce the opposition. Some fucking hypocritical double standards.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 27, 2020, 06:30:07 pm
Thirsty Sword Lesbians by April Kit Walsh is a roleplaying game that celebrates the love, power, and existence of queer people—specifically queer people with swords and a lot of feelings. Flirting, sword-fighting, and barbed zingers all mix together in a system designed for both narrative drama and player safety. This innovative take on the Powered by the Apocalypse engine is a breeze to learn and ensures that no matter how the dice fall, something interesting happens to move the story forward.

In this game, you will solve problems with wit, empathy, and style, fight when something is worth fighting for, and redeem (or seduce) at least a few of your adversaries. You’re part of a community that embodies important ideals and you’ll strive to protect it and make your world better.

Play as one of nine character types: Beast, Chosen, Devoted, Infamous, Nature Witch, Scoundrel, Seeker, Spooky Witch, and Trickster. Each explores a particular emotional conflict that drives the drama and shapes your character’s story. Are you a Beast, faced with the dilemma of expressing your inner truth versus fitting in to a society that demands you conform? A Devoted, who sacrifices for others while struggling to care for yourself? A Trickster, who craves closeness but fears vulnerability? In long-term play, you may even resolve your initial arc and advance into a different playbook as you continue to change and grow, facing new challenges.

What do they mean when they say the system is designed for Player safety?

Do they mean that the books have special rubber corners to stop those unfortunate blindings that can sometimes happen if you use sharp cornered books?

Do they mean that all the multi syllable words have been removed so that no one accidentally learns something new while reading the book?

Inquiring minds want to know!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 27, 2020, 06:32:00 pm
I am not being disingenuous and you're emphasizing the wrong word in my question. I am not being naive about the reaction, I am ASKING WHY. As in I genuinely want people to articulate the reasons they object to this specific thing, and not their general feelings of this company being icky for being SJW. It's not that I am surprised by people's reactions - I am asking for your reasons.

Thought I'd voiced mine before on this but here goes again.

Its the same objection I have to any "woke" material and especially to hateful "woke" statements and accusations as in their promotionals. This applies to any company that uses similar low stunts like this. Its the same reason I have a particular hate for Mearls and others of his ilk after he "fired" players from D&D. Or how 4e D&D had to piss on players of prior editions, or how WOTC has slapped a great big "WACIST!" label on all older product. And every other stunt companies and designers have pulled in the last 10 years.

And I particularly despise these things when all they are is an outrage marketing gag to get free advertising.

If you have to attack someone to promote your product. Then your product is not dirt. It is less than dirt.

That's the thing about Mistwell's intrusion into this topic. He's like "I'm totally not being disingenuous at all, guys! I've no idea WTF you're talking about. I'M JUST ASKING FOR...REASONS!"

Meanwhile there's like 17+ pages of "reasons" in this thread that have been hatched out over and over again. People have brought up the adversarial, ideologically purist marketing like three dozen times. A few also criticized the fugly has hell art as well. I may have mentioned something about the silly game play concept at one point (which revolves around "redeeming" lesbian adversaries, rather than killing them, in order to "kiss" them *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*), but by and large there have been pages upon pages criticizing the marketing. Yet somehow totally not disingenuous Mistwell has managed to miss that.

These goons are way behind. 12 year old boys have been using D&D to play lesbianstripperninjas since at least 1983.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/aa0f60c2ce94b7980cf2107ca9303b3c/tenor.gif)

Greetings!

The *GAMEPLAY*--wait, wait, VisionStorm! I must have been sleeping and missed that class. Can you elaborate for me? Kissing and no doubt much more--dealing with Lesbian adversaries....redeeming them? WTF?

Who are the Lesbian adversaries? Do Lesbians fight different kinds of monsters and villains than Conan the Barbarian, or Sir Lancelot of the Round Table?

How are such adversaries "Redeemed"? Redeemed from what, and TO what?

This game sounds so fucking retarded. Mistwell must have been eating too many Cheetos or something not to see this truth. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't know the specifics about action resolution or how fighting and adversaries work, but based on the KS description...

Quote
Thirsty Sword Lesbians by April Kit Walsh is a roleplaying game that celebrates the love, power, and existence of queer people—specifically queer people with swords and a lot of feelings. Flirting, sword-fighting, and barbed zingers all mix together in a system designed for both narrative drama and player safety. This innovative take on the Powered by the Apocalypse engine is a breeze to learn and ensures that no matter how the dice fall, something interesting happens to move the story forward.

In this game, you will solve problems with wit, empathy, and style, fight when something is worth fighting for, and redeem (or seduce) at least a few of your adversaries. You’re part of a community that embodies important ideals and you’ll strive to protect it and make your world better.

Play as one of nine character types: Beast, Chosen, Devoted, Infamous, Nature Witch, Scoundrel, Seeker, Spooky Witch, and Trickster. Each explores a particular emotional conflict that drives the drama and shapes your character’s story. Are you a Beast, faced with the dilemma of expressing your inner truth versus fitting in to a society that demands you conform? A Devoted, who sacrifices for others while struggling to care for yourself? A Trickster, who craves closeness but fears vulnerability? In long-term play, you may even resolve your initial arc and advance into a different playbook as you continue to change and grow, facing new challenges.


So the game apparently emphasizes flirting, witty one liners or "barbed zingers" and resolving emotional conflicts and other story-focused stuff over combat. They don't provide much detail about what types of adversaries you face, but the rules supposedly provide "robust guidance and support" for making "appealing adversaries" (whatever that's supposed to mean)...

Quote
Thirsty Sword Lesbians provides clear, robust guidance and support for running the game, including how to make appealing adversaries, set the tone, structure play, and create a safe environment at the table. Handy reference sheets help you narrate appropriate twists and drama on the fly, depending on the feelings and character types you have in play.

Basically it's a touchy-feely story game about "oh, so random!" stuff going on. I'm not even sure what the setting is suposed to be about, but the world is so focused they include, not one, but six different settings in a 224 (approx.) page book (I'm sure they're all well detailed with that type of page count  ::) ).

Quote
For even more inspiration, it features The Starcross Galaxy campaign setting along with five more settings from these contributing authors:

  • Lesbeans Coffehouse by Dominique Dickey
  • Neon City 2099 by Jamila Nedjadi
  • The Three Orders of Ardor by Whitney Delaglio
  • Les Violettes Dangereuses by Jonaya Kemper
  • Yuisa Revolution by Alexis Sara

We also provide ample guidance on how to create your own tales of fighting with swords and falling in love, along with a world building worksheet, variant rules, and a set of starting scenario seeds to play with. Because the game focuses on feelings and relationships, it’s a lens you can use to play in a variety of genres. If you like slashfic of characters with swords, you’ll love this game.

Greetings!

Thank you, VisionStorm! So, the game is just as we suspected all along. It is more woke emotional toilet paper. That's all these people exist for, is a constant consciousness of their own woke ideology, their entire sexual identity and emotional dysfunction. This whole prospectus of their game drips with SJW BS. "Safe Spaces" indeed. ;D It's not about *gaming* and *adventure*--it's about stories of being emotionally dysfunctional trans hedonists swallowed up in trainloads of melodrama and their sexual identity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 27, 2020, 08:15:09 pm
Greetings!

Thank you, VisionStorm! So, the game is just as we suspected all along. It is more woke emotional toilet paper. That's all these people exist for, is a constant consciousness of their own woke ideology, their entire sexual identity and emotional dysfunction. This whole prospectus of their game drips with SJW BS. "Safe Spaces" indeed. ;D It's not about *gaming* and *adventure*--it's about stories of being emotionally dysfunctional trans hedonists swallowed up in trainloads of melodrama and their sexual identity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Pretty much. It's just about angsty melodrama, weird sexual exploration and emotional stuff.

Thanks for the synopsis VS. Looks like an rpg destined to be played at a very few select tables lol.

Hell most of my players and others too would laugh at the KS description of the rpg. Empathy seriously LOL.The rpg makes little sense and it should be could a called Safe Zone the rpg. I thought seducing an npc or enemy is wrong. Given how many woke SJW pearl clutch and toss their hand against their collective heads when it comes to Charm magic in rpgs. Saying it is physical assault yet we have an rpg whose main purpose is to seduce the opposition. Some fucking hypocritical double standards.

Yeah, I don't even know where the "empathy" stuff figures in, but apparently you solve problems in this game through "empathy" or some such. The whole implication about sexual assault also crossed my mind: If you have to defeat your opponents first, and then "seduce" them, wouldn't they be unable to consent, given that you have power over them? It gets into weird territory, especially for a segment of people who would also tell us that not asking for affirmative consent every two seconds is "rape".

What do they mean when they say the system is designed for Player safety?

Do they mean that the books have special rubber corners to stop those unfortunate blindings that can sometimes happen if you use sharp cornered books?

Do they mean that all the multi syllable words have been removed so that no one accidentally learns something new while reading the book?

Inquiring minds want to know!

IDK, rolling dice is dangerous business. Those d4s are liable to take someone's eye out with those pointy edges, and stuff. We need all the "safety tools" we can get. Maybe they'll teach us how to build papier-mache armor out of their book's pages. :P
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 27, 2020, 08:53:22 pm
It's the extremely hypocritical double standard by Work SJW Gamers VS. As long as those on the approved SJW Woke list do it then it's okay and not sexual assault. Anyone else it is most definitely sexual assault.

Somehow none of the Woke SJWs don't notice that or chose to ignore it because it pushes LQBT representation to the forefront.

My niece is almost two years old and will probably ask a much older me if we were mind controlled or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: GameDaddy on October 28, 2020, 01:24:40 am

The question is, is Blue Rose a fun game to play for the 5% or less of gamers who really want to try something in the genre of Mercedes Lackey and similar authors?

I wouldn't know. I haven't read any books by Mercedes Lackey.  Is Blue Rose fun to play? Yes! Do RPGers of the female persuasion like it? Yes, very much. It doesn't focus on combat like a wargame oriented fantasy roleplaying game like Dungeons & Dragons, ...and Warhammer, for example, do. It concentrates instead much more on magic, ongoing narratives, epic mythology, romance, and intrigue, and bills itself as the Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy

In Europe there was an Age of Chivalry that began in the Arthurian era after the Romans left Northern Europe. It evolved during the time of Charlemagne, and one of the clearest books that survived from that era was Parzival by Wolfram Von Eschenbach. It's a historical fiction book I like, actually, and it was written in the first years of the thirteenth century, just about the time the Crusades began in Europe.  Described as a Romance of the Middle Ages, the book is about a Knight, Parzival, and his quest to find the Holy Grail. In the years 1211-1212, When Parzival was finished, or near finished, saw Frederick the Great's election as Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, and his adventurous return to the fatherland from the First Crusade (where Jerusalem was reclaimed for Christendom) to claim his patrimony against his enemies. His coronation in 1215 at Charlemagne's ancient Capital at Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen) occurred very near the end of Wolfram's life. I thought Blue Rose would be great to run games about this, as well as  other stories like the French Horn of Roland which is set in about the same timeframe, and I was right. Blue Rose is great for this sort of RPG Games. 

Interestingly, about half the playtest group for Blue Rose was composed  of women, an amazing ratio for RPGs, so it's pretty safe to say that if a bunch of women got together to design an RPG, Blue Rose would be it. Nice game, lots of fun to play, and the ladies find it very alluring.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 28, 2020, 11:12:23 am
The question is, is Blue Rose a fun game to play for the 5% or less of gamers who really want to try something in the genre of Mercedes Lackey and similar authors?

I have absolutely no problem with acknowledging "those who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like" as a perfectly reasonable stance.

The problem I have is the tendency of the marketing and the fans to turn that difference in gaming preference into a moral judgement, not just about other players' gaming but about life -- which I admit is not something unique to one side, or to these topics specifically.  However, that there is a deliberate and self-conscious component of advocacy to the game's content and its promotion cannot, I think, be reasonably denied, any more than anyone could reasonably claim (to steal examples from Dan Davenport's review again) there isn't an environmentalist message in games like Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Blue Planet.

Quote
I disagree with your characterization of romantic fantasy.

I'll stipulate to not having read the authors you cite and to the point that there is more of an "action-adventure quotient" in other works in the genre. Nonetheless, I'd argue that this basic perspective is still mostly accurate for game criticism purposes, largely because much of it is taken from the game designers' own descriptions of what they were hoping to capture in the genre -- some of Green Ronin's blog posts about the BR design process should still be available on their site.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 28, 2020, 11:36:42 am
There are no aspects of Lovecraftian fiction that work well as an RPG, because typical RPGs aren't nihilistic horror stories.

Exactly; the entire psychological point of anything called a "game" as an activity, I would suggest, is the reward of accomplishment and victory that comes with successfully executing its in-play tasks through the challenges of the rules (which needn't require that one wins the game itself, only that one plays to the best of one's own ability while playing). Cosmic horror as a genre, conversely, is ultimately about the meaninglessness and ephemeral nature of even the longest-lasting "victories" on the human scope. There cannot but be a certain amount of psychological conflict between those perspectives.

That is not to say that there can't be honest affirmation in saying, "Better to light the candle and enjoy its light, however brief, than to grieve for how soon it must go out." But I think RPGs generally work better if this kind of conflict between the game and the story content is either avoided to begin with, or explicitly resolved as the point of the game.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 28, 2020, 01:26:09 pm
Funny thing, Conan is an Avenger now, and DC hasn its own sword and sorcery characters in theirnprehistory that often crossed over via time magic shenanigans in ye olden times. I realize ot doesnt really refute jhkim but its just funny to me.

1: Saw that. How long till they neuter him?

2: DC has a fairly popular fantasy world character in the form of Travis Morgan. Warlord. Theres been a couple of crossovers as the fantasy realm is actually somewhere deep underground in contemporary DC earth. Theres even an episode of the Justice League animated series where they travel to that world and meet Warlord and co.

Theres also the popular, but short lived, Amethyst fantasy series that on rare occasion crossed over since it too was connected via another dimension. Theres been a few others, but those two, especially Warlord have endured the best.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 28, 2020, 02:13:34 pm
1) You claim that Blue Rose doesn't provide what most RPGers want out of their games -- and I think that's true. Blue Rose isn't written for "most RPGers", nor should it be.

The question is, is Blue Rose a fun game to play for the 5% or less of gamers who really want to try something in the genre of Mercedes Lackey and similar authors?

2) I disagree with your characterization of romantic fantasy. I haven't read that much Mercedes Lackey - only the Exile series in Valdemar. But I've read a lot of Tamora Pierce. Exile's Honor has less violence than Conan stories, but it has more violence than Tolkien. Exile's Honor has more violence than The Fellowship of the Ring.

Of course, D&D games are different than Tolkien's writing - but then, Blue Rose adventures don't have to be exactly like Mercedes Lackey. In my Blue Rose mini-campaign, I drew in a bunch of inspirations - including Scooby Doo. I didn't end up running much more of Blue Rose, but it seemed to me just as workable as a dozen other RPGs. Not every RPG should be about Conanesque monster-killing.

1: Agreed here. There are tons of niche games out there and have been from the get go. I mean we had Bunnies & Burrows by 76 which is pretty much Watership Down: the RPG. Superhero 2044 in 77, and Boot Hill in 75 to play westerns. And others big and small like Call of Cthulhu in 81.

2: I think there is alot of leeway in what some consider is or is not romantic fantasy. For me Lackey's books are, but say John Carter and some other ERB books are not because one emphasizes the romance and the other really does not. And Im not even sure the Lackey books emphasize the romance as much as they focus on the angst. Least the few I read. Kat knew the line better and got to visit with Mercedes. But unfortunately shes gone and any insights into this lost.

2b: I think games like Blue Rose are meant to be a sort of catch-all rather than focused just on one author. You can play a broad range of styles. Much like D&D. It encompasses everything with focus on none.

Contrast that to say Empire of the Petal Throne or Bunnies & Burrows, or Albedo, which are focused on one author and you'd have a harder time adapting those to other works or gameplay styles. Though Albedo gives alot of leeway, within limits.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 28, 2020, 07:01:56 pm
The question is, is Blue Rose a fun game to play for the 5% or less of gamers who really want to try something in the genre of Mercedes Lackey and similar authors?
I have absolutely no problem with acknowledging "those who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like" as a perfectly reasonable stance.

The problem I have is the tendency of the marketing and the fans to turn that difference in gaming preference into a moral judgement, not just about other players' gaming but about life -- which I admit is not something unique to one side, or to these topics specifically.  However, that there is a deliberate and self-conscious component of advocacy to the game's content and its promotion cannot, I think, be reasonably denied, any more than anyone could reasonably claim (to steal examples from Dan Davenport's review again) there isn't an environmentalist message in games like Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Blue Planet.
I'll buy that there is advocacy in Blue Rose, but I didn't see anything in the original Blue Rose marketing that was about moral judgement of any other RPG players. It's not just me - back in reply #238 jeff37923 specifically said that the Blue Rose marketing was "inoffensive and not antagonistic" -- as opposed to the Thirsty Sword Lesbians marketing.

I'm generally in the camp of letting people play what they play without moral judgement. I think that the criticism of Blue Rose escalated this sort of judgement, when the game and its fans weren't doing anything like that. Now many years later, we're at the point of much more constant judgement, and we're worse off for it.

I think we should be able to have games with differing themes (like environmentalism in Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Blue Planet as you say) without moral judgements of the gamers who play them.


Quote
I disagree with your characterization of romantic fantasy.
I'll stipulate to not having read the authors you cite and to the point that there is more of an "action-adventure quotient" in other works in the genre. Nonetheless, I'd argue that this basic perspective is still mostly accurate for game criticism purposes, largely because much of it is taken from the game designers' own descriptions of what they were hoping to capture in the genre -- some of Green Ronin's blog posts about the BR design process should still be available on their site.
I don't think your description matches up with that. Your description made it sound like romantic fantasy was mainly about internal struggles and/or romance. As Blue Rose describes it, the difference is more that romantic fantasy protagonists still face external challenges, but they do so in the context of a growing circle and community.

For example, Protector of the Small is a classic romantic fantasy. Its protagonist is Keladry of Mindelen, who is the first girl to begin training as a knight in the kingdom of Tortall. It is coming-of-age young adult fantasy, where she goes from candidate, to page, to squire, to knight. One could compare it to Harry Potter, but instead of a glasses-wearing magician, it has an athletic jock trying to grow and prove herself.

High fantasy is more often about loners roaming from place to place in the wilderness, but romantic fantasy is more being a part of a team. In scifi, the difference would be like Guardians of the Galaxy (wandering loners) versus Star Wars (joining in a movement).
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 28, 2020, 07:35:40 pm
I wonder if we can compare two ongoing kickstarters:

Thirsty Sword Lesbians: $242,018 NZD with 4,361 Backers and 14 days to go.

Worlds Without Number: $271,635 NZD with 3,581 Backers and 6 days to go.

So it appears as if there are more TSL backers but each individual backer is supporting less per backer ($55.49 per backer)

WWN backers on the other hand average $75.85 per backer
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on October 29, 2020, 02:59:54 pm
I'll buy that there is advocacy in Blue Rose, but I didn't see anything in the original Blue Rose marketing that was about moral judgement of any other RPG players.

You may not have seen the TBP threads back in the day where I expressed my objections to a religion which taught traditional standards of chastity being explicitly set up as one of the setting's major antagonistic forces, and the one which, in fact, tended to come in for more personal hatred from many of the fans (Kern, after all, was just being what Big Evil Bads have to be). Let us say that not much sympathy for this perspective was gained. (And online discussions are part of how games are marketed.)

The problem is that this particular in-game issue is explicitly a real-world one as well. A game which sets up orcs as an intrinsically evil species can always defend itself by noting that orcs are not real, and any claim that they represent some real group the creator wants us to despise the same way is by definition a potentially inaccurate presumption. When two in-game cultures, one obviously meant for heroic protagonists and one obviously meant for, at best, considerably less-enlightened protagonists and more often antagonists, are set up in direct opposition over a real-world topic, and their positions are obvious echoes of real-world positions, and there is never any suggestion anywhere that the more heroic culture might be wrong in its position or that the antagonist might be right, that defense fails to hold water.

Like you, I generally don't bother caring what anyone else plays for their own amusement, but I don't think it can be denied that some products make it harder to defend one's like or dislike as mere personal taste, or aesthetic appreciation, than others. There's a reason everybody laughs at the claim that one only reads Playboy for the articles.

Quote
I don't think your description matches up with that. Your description made it sound like romantic fantasy was mainly about internal struggles and/or romance. As Blue Rose describes it, the difference is more that romantic fantasy protagonists still face external challenges, but they do so in the context of a growing circle and community.

It's a question of priority of emphasis, and of necessary vs. sufficient elements. Romantic fantasy can still be what it is if the external challenges take place almost conclusively off stage, but it can't be what it is if the internal struggles aren't examined in detail, or the relationships aren't at least as much of a time- and attention-occupier as the action or worldbuilding -- you still need at least some of the latter, but you absolutely cannot short-change the relationships, community or character-building, or you have something that looks like the chosen genre without actually evoking it much (q.v. the note above about CoC games not being the same experience as reading a Lovecraft story).
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 29, 2020, 04:47:57 pm
I'll buy that there is advocacy in Blue Rose, but I didn't see anything in the original Blue Rose marketing that was about moral judgement of any other RPG players.
You may not have seen the TBP threads back in the day where I expressed my objections to a religion which taught traditional standards of chastity being explicitly set up as one of the setting's major antagonistic forces, and the one which, in fact, tended to come in for more personal hatred from many of the fans (Kern, after all, was just being what Big Evil Bads have to be). Let us say that not much sympathy for this perspective was gained. (And online discussions are part of how games are marketed.)

The problem is that this particular in-game issue is explicitly a real-world one as well. A game which sets up orcs as an intrinsically evil species can always defend itself by noting that orcs are not real, and any claim that they represent some real group the creator wants us to despise the same way is by definition a potentially inaccurate presumption. When two in-game cultures, one obviously meant for heroic protagonists and one obviously meant for, at best, considerably less-enlightened protagonists and more often antagonists, are set up in direct opposition over a real-world topic, and their positions are obvious echoes of real-world positions, and there is never any suggestion anywhere that the more heroic culture might be wrong in its position or that the antagonist might be right, that defense fails to hold water.
So your claim is that you're *right* to attack Blue Rose players because of the fictional Jarzoni religion because it really does represent real-world liberalism, but liberal players are *wrong* to attack D&D players because of fictional orcs because they don't represent real-world conservatism.

I don't see this as "live and let live". Even if there are real-world parallels, it's still just a fucking game in both cases.

What you're trying to do is win a culture war over RPGs - because the other side is wrong, and you're right, and you want to prove it. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but you can't claim that this is a live and let live approach. In this case, you're the one making real-world moral judgements of the other side based on the game they're playing.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Jaeger on October 29, 2020, 07:43:27 pm
I wonder if we can compare two ongoing kickstarters:

Thirsty Sword Lesbians: $242,018 NZD with 4,361 Backers and 14 days to go.

Worlds Without Number: $271,635 NZD with 3,581 Backers and 6 days to go.

So it appears as if there are more TSL backers but each individual backer is supporting less per backer ($55.49 per backer)

WWN backers on the other hand average $75.85 per backer

The real comparison should be done 1 year after both kickstarters games have shipped.

Which one has the most people still playing it...
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 29, 2020, 08:02:04 pm
The real comparison should be done 1 year after both kickstarters games have shipped.

Which one has the most people still playing it...

Haha, no one is going to play that lesbian shit, they're going to post pictures of them receiving the books (if they ever actually get them) and virtue signal as hard as possible. "We're patriots, and playing this game is just important as storming the sands of Iwo Jima in the name of equality" or some bullshit.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 29, 2020, 09:05:47 pm
I'll buy that there is advocacy in Blue Rose, but I didn't see anything in the original Blue Rose marketing that was about moral judgement of any other RPG players.
You may not have seen the TBP threads back in the day where I expressed my objections to a religion which taught traditional standards of chastity being explicitly set up as one of the setting's major antagonistic forces, and the one which, in fact, tended to come in for more personal hatred from many of the fans (Kern, after all, was just being what Big Evil Bads have to be). Let us say that not much sympathy for this perspective was gained. (And online discussions are part of how games are marketed.)

The problem is that this particular in-game issue is explicitly a real-world one as well. A game which sets up orcs as an intrinsically evil species can always defend itself by noting that orcs are not real, and any claim that they represent some real group the creator wants us to despise the same way is by definition a potentially inaccurate presumption. When two in-game cultures, one obviously meant for heroic protagonists and one obviously meant for, at best, considerably less-enlightened protagonists and more often antagonists, are set up in direct opposition over a real-world topic, and their positions are obvious echoes of real-world positions, and there is never any suggestion anywhere that the more heroic culture might be wrong in its position or that the antagonist might be right, that defense fails to hold water.
So your claim is that you're *right* to attack Blue Rose players because of the fictional Jarzoni religion because it really does represent real-world liberalism, but liberal players are *wrong* to attack D&D players because of fictional orcs because they don't represent real-world conservatism.

I don't see this as "live and let live". Even if there are real-world parallels, it's still just a fucking game in both cases.

What you're trying to do is win a culture war over RPGs - because the other side is wrong, and you're right, and you want to prove it. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but you can't claim that this is a live and let live approach. In this case, you're the one making real-world moral judgements of the other side based on the game they're playing.

Greetings!

Jhkim, there is no "Live and Let Live" nonsense. That is nothing more than a naïve gummy bear to soothe the weak. In reality, and in the future, THERE IS ONLY WAR! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Snowman0147 on October 29, 2020, 10:48:29 pm
I vouch Shark joins the Shark Marines.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 29, 2020, 11:09:53 pm
I wonder if we can compare two ongoing kickstarters:

Thirsty Sword Lesbians: $242,018 NZD with 4,361 Backers and 14 days to go.

Worlds Without Number: $271,635 NZD with 3,581 Backers and 6 days to go.

So it appears as if there are more TSL backers but each individual backer is supporting less per backer ($55.49 per backer)

WWN backers on the other hand average $75.85 per backer

From experience with this stunt in numerous board game KS theres also this one to mull over...

Shill accounts. Using fake accounts or getting friends and family to back to serve as a false indicator that the game has some sort of clout.

Unlikely. Its probably more EH is just getting backers from its fanbase.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Opaopajr on October 30, 2020, 03:48:59 am
 :-* I now want to be a naïve gummy bear who soothes the weak. (oh shit, on topic game talk tax!) Uhhh, yeah play an analgesic gummy bear... who is an enbi (non-binary), of course! Yeah, that's the ticket!  8)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 30, 2020, 02:10:34 pm
What you're trying to do is win a culture war over RPGs - because the other side is wrong, and you're right, and you want to prove it. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but you can't claim that this is a live and let live approach. In this case, you're the one making real-world moral judgements of the other side based on the game they're playing.
Jhkim, there is no "Live and Let Live" nonsense. That is nothing more than a naïve gummy bear to soothe the weak. In reality, and in the future, THERE IS ONLY WAR! ;D
Culture wars exist in with wider world (especially in voting and in children's media). However, I don't think RPGs are in any way a useful medium for conveying liberal or conservative values. So they're not actually a functional battlefield.

So as I see it, you're trying to be manly and tough while attacking me with... a gummy bear. No matter how tough you talk, there is no trail of vanquished liberals groaning on the battlefield due to your attacks.

The only thing the RPG "war" is accomplishing is getting more people on both sides pissed off, outraged, and unhappy.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Dimitrios on October 30, 2020, 02:40:43 pm
So as I see it, you're trying to be manly and tough while attacking me with... a gummy bear. No matter how tough you talk, there is no trail of vanquished liberals groaning on the battlefield due to your attacks.

Forget thirsty lesbians, someone needs to kickstart an rpg where the PCs are gun-toting gummy bears! 8)
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: SHARK on October 30, 2020, 02:45:48 pm
What you're trying to do is win a culture war over RPGs - because the other side is wrong, and you're right, and you want to prove it. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but you can't claim that this is a live and let live approach. In this case, you're the one making real-world moral judgements of the other side based on the game they're playing.
Jhkim, there is no "Live and Let Live" nonsense. That is nothing more than a naïve gummy bear to soothe the weak. In reality, and in the future, THERE IS ONLY WAR! ;D
Culture wars exist in with wider world (especially in voting and in children's media). However, I don't think RPGs are in any way a useful medium for conveying liberal or conservative values. So they're not actually a functional battlefield.

So as I see it, you're trying to be manly and tough while attacking me with... a gummy bear. No matter how tough you talk, there is no trail of vanquished liberals groaning on the battlefield due to your attacks.

The only thing the RPG "war" is accomplishing is getting more people on both sides pissed off, outraged, and unhappy.

Greetings!

*Sighing* (Shakes head, laughing). No, Jhkim. I'm not trying to be "manly and tough"--just an attempt at humour. Tipping the hat to a humorous allusion to Warhammer 40K--which I have been a longtime fan of the Warhammer universe going back to days playing a miniatures wargame called Space Marine.

And yeah, I like gummy bears, too. I thought it would be obvious I was being humorous and teasing you in a good natured manner.

No worries, Jhkim. Some people get me, and others don't. I understand.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on October 30, 2020, 03:05:37 pm
So as I see it, you're trying to be manly and tough while attacking me with... a gummy bear. No matter how tough you talk, there is no trail of vanquished liberals groaning on the battlefield due to your attacks.

Forget thirsty lesbians, someone needs to kickstart an rpg where the PCs are gun-toting gummy bears! 8)

Well there are some gummy bear board games and gummy chess and... er... nevermind.

Does the Gummi Bears RPG count?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on October 30, 2020, 03:06:24 pm
*Sighing* (Shakes head, laughing). No, Jhkim. I'm not trying to be "manly and tough"--just an attempt at humour. Tipping the hat to a humorous allusion to Warhammer 40K--which I have been a longtime fan of the Warhammer universe going back to days playing a miniatures wargame called Space Marine.

And yeah, I like gummy bears, too. I thought it would be obvious I was being humorous and teasing you in a good natured manner.

No worries, Jhkim. Some people get me, and others don't. I understand.
Sorry, SHARK. You can be pretty intense sometimes in what I think is a serious fashion - but I should have picked out that one as humor.

Anyhow, it's all good. I like gummy bears too.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 30, 2020, 03:48:30 pm
Sorry, SHARK. You can be pretty intense sometimes in what I think is a serious fashion - but I should have picked out that one as humor.

The  ;D might have been a subtle clue!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Jaeger on October 30, 2020, 03:55:53 pm
...
Culture wars exist in with wider world (especially in voting and in children's media). However, I don't think RPGs are in any way a useful medium for conveying liberal or conservative values. So they're not actually a functional battlefield.
...

I disagree with your assumption.

It's not about "conveying values". It is about controlling the narrative on all media.

It always has been.

They don't care about genuinely changing your mind. They will force you to accept their presence, and their rules.

Anything you like to do, they want to take over and ruin if you think differently than them.

Look at the control/ banning of any dissenting opinion at places like RPG.net.

Or even now at ENWorld, they want an "Inclusive community" so they have banned the use of the words: agenda, ideology, politics, and propaganda, from being used by anyone calling out the lefty posters over there when they spout their conflict theory nonsense.  (I'm pretty sure you guys can blame me for than one...)

Conveying values?

It's about ramming marxism down your throat, and silencing any dissent.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on October 30, 2020, 07:37:40 pm
Some of us went through the real culture war in 2008.

This one is weak sauce.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:00:43 am
Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it. I mean how much more hypocritical can you get?

Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Why the hell do you care about this? Are you so easily offended? Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.
I don't think that anybody really cares about an RPG for LGBTQ people. Though, it is a silly idea. You can play a "thirsty lesbian" in any RPG that I have ever played with no additional difficulty. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a silly name for a game too, it strikes me as more sexploitation than social justice, and that is probably how they should have done it. Like Car Lesbians.

As for why we would let this bother us? I can only speak for myself in saying that a single small time indy game with SJW elements doesn't trouble me at all, even if the creators say that I'm bad and wrong and not allowed to play.

The problem is that this isn't a one time thing with one minor game. It is an extremist attitude which is coming to dominate all geeky hobbies from RPG's to video games to shows, movies, and books. It seems like we can't engage in any geeky activity without being beat over the had with how bad straight white men are and what villains people are for disagreeing.

Would you be pissed off about a bunch of right wing extremists making a RPG where they said that left wingers are terrible and not allowed to play? I bet you would hate that, even if it was an unpopular game made by a small group. How would you feel then if a high percentage of game companies were like that, if most of the TV shows were like that?

Why are you here chastising us for complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians instead of asking them why they care about the politics of role players?
Right-wing extremist games already exist. There are several. I'm talking about RaHoWa or Myfarog. I'm sure left-wingers would be disparaged by players of those games. I'm sure those who play these games would care about the politics of their players as well.

I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?

I think the name is a little silly too, but I think that is the point. It is a game that is just embracing that and letting it run. I think it is very brave and forward.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:09:41 am
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

OK, then.

Now tell us how Thirsty Sword Lesbians helps to positively bring about a world where these issues are not a problem. See, if you can't, then this game is just using those talking points to make sales and not make change you want to see.
The fact that the game exists and addresses these elements as a matter of fact. It helps bring awareness. It also provides an avenue where such is acceptable. It helps those who need a feeling of acceptance and does no harm to anyone else. It is a great idea.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:21:03 am
Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

Literal fucking LOL at this crap. Jesus Christ you people truly are insane.
Wow. You actually are willing to deride someone who makes a very open and accepting statement that people should play the games that make them feel comfortable and safe???

Why? Do you think that some people are not allowed to be comfortable and safe? Do you think some people are not allowed to enjoy the games they like? I don't understand you motivation, here.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:35:04 am
Thanks for outing yourself fixable.  Glad to know your a unfixable piece of fascist shit that I can safely ignore.

Mistwell and Fixable are not really interested in having a discussion of any kind. It's simply to metaphorically wag fingers say that the rpgsite is evil and to push carefully constructed personal narratives. Anyhing and everything that goes against said narrative is to be summarily ignored.

I figured that out from the start. Woke repressive, regressive SJWs have a way of starting a conversation where you and I and anyone else who has a difference of opinion is always in the wrong. We never said don't publish the rpg. Just that speaking for myself I will not support any rpg from a company that needs to always attach a woke SJW manifesto to every rpg. I used to game and be friends wirh someone like Fixable who started normal drank the SJW kool-aid an made myself and anyone who disagreed with him the enemy. For example they just changed the main actress from Batgirl from white to a POC and when myself and another gaming friend pointed out it was a race swap he accused us and the fans that disagreed with the change as being racist and misogynist. The other friend who is more liberal than myself just cut him from his life and I followed shortly after. As everytime we disagreed with his position we were (insert word)ists. It's pretty bad when even the Trump hating firmly on the Left in terms of political spectrum Liberal gets fed up of a person Woke SJw politics.
Well fine.

The thing is what you call a 'woke manifesto' is simply a statement of inclusiveness. I'm all for it. Why would you not make this hobby more inclusive and more accepting? It will only grow the hobby and bring more people into the game.

You are just scared. You are scared that people that you don't understand will be allowed to enjoy the hobby. These people may change the hobby from under your feet. You are scared that these 'so called wok sjw's will kill your hobby... or rather your preferred iteration of the hobby". These evil sjw's will force you to change your game.

That is absolute rubbish.

Play D&D the way you want to play D&D, and let those you don't agree with play D&D the way they want to play D&D. I propose a live and let live attitude, and you all jump down my throat thinking that I am promoting some made-up evil sjw terrorist organization determined to rule the world.

If you listen to yourselves, you sound ridiculous. Go GI Joe!!!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:40:05 am

Well if you have a problem with the idea that a game is not for communists, then that is your problem. If you choose to provide comfort to communist beliefs then you got to reconcile that on your own. Don't blame independent forum posters for that.

Its not about identity politics. It is about communists have ZERO place in our society.

If you have comforting ideas towards communists then you are going to have to pay the price for it. If it means being ostracized from real connection from other people because you are an asshole, communist, Marxist, piece of shit than so be it. You deserve it.

If you are a communist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here. I'll show you the door.

(Fixed that for you...)
Cute.

I didn't start this thread. I'm just responding to it.

You can't just dissolve yourself of your own failing by shifting blame to someone else. Although maybe in these times it is now considered ok.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:51:44 am
There is absolutely nothing wrong with racial liberation, queer liberation, and intersectional feminism.

OK, then.

Now tell us how Thirsty Sword Lesbians helps to positively bring about a world where these issues are not a problem. See, if you can't, then this game is just using those talking points to make sales and not make change you want to see.
Well you are putting too much into this. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is just a game made by people who enjoy it. It doesn't need to be anything more than that. Let people who want to have fun playing this game play it. Why in the world do you care?

I know that you are just here to troll.

But I'll share a secret with you. It never ends with, "Live and let live". It just keeps on going until that which does not conform to their ideology is silenced. You can tell by the language used in the game Kickstarter that this game is not meant to be a commercial success or a tool to help create safe spaces for gamers to play in, it is a propaganda weapon used to try and fleece the gullible of their money by antagonizing the dull-witted into reacting how they wish. The tactic has been used before and gets old very quick and most of the people on this forum are really tired of it.

Well, I'm not trying to troll. I'm just very passionate about the idea the role-playing games are for everyone and that there are many games that should appeal to many people.

Games like RaHoWa and Myfarog exist for those who are into that sh*t.

The idea of deriding a game because you find it offensive is just stupid.

You take the existence of this game as an attack against you. A game that appeals to otherwise marginalized people, who just want to have fun playing a role-playing game that appeals to them.

I don't know what to say about that other than f*ck off and let this game provide fun for those who want to play it.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Alderaan Crumbs on October 31, 2020, 09:46:29 am
Edit: I’d rather be positive. RPGs are awesome.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 31, 2020, 10:46:44 am
The thing is what you call a 'woke manifesto' is simply a statement of inclusiveness. I'm all for it. Why would you not make this hobby more inclusive and more accepting? It will only grow the hobby and bring more people into the game.

This hobby has always been inclusive and accepting because in many cases we were social pariahs for liking rpgs. We never turned away anyone or everyone away from playing an rpg. I sure as hell don't need some kind of Woke manifesto telling me to do something I was doing from the start. Then again Mistwell and you other Woke SJWs like to present and push a revisionist aspect of the hobby where everyone and anyone but straight males were allowed to play and join. Speaking for myself I allowed anyone and everyone who was not a jerk and who wanted to play.

You are just scared. You are scared that people that you don't understand will be allowed to enjoy the hobby. These people may change the hobby from under your feet. You are scared that these 'so called wok sjw's will kill your hobby... or rather your preferred iteration of the hobby". These evil sjw's will force you to change your game.

Oh go fuck your father and mother.

Unlike some in the hobby I don't care what your skin color, gender or sexuality is. As long as you want to have fun and not be an asshole or jerk at the table you are welcome to join. I don't care if if you self identify as a unicorn or gay person if you act like a jerk your out of the game. No exceptions and non-negotiable.

You and others like yourself are scared. You don't realize or care about how hypocritical your positions are. Be diverse and inclusive while picking only those who are mindless and repeat the SJW mantras back at you. Which is being anything but diverse and inclusive.

What did you think that you were simply going to come in kick the door down and not expect push back. You SJWs truly are fucking blind and naive in every sense of the word.

That is absolute rubbish.

What is absolute rubbish is you and other woke SJWs present narratives and revisionist history in it's purest form. Making up wild and baseless accusations that only straight white males played D&D and that their was some imaginary Illuminati conspiracy to keep anyone and everyone that was not straight, white and male out of the hobby. Did it happen yes yet anyone who usually joined a table who was racist and later homophobic was booted and banned from joining again. But hey keep making out out to be evil bogeyman instead of engaging in any critical thinking. After all one can't go against the carefully constructed personal narratives can we.

Play D&D the way you want to play D&D, and let those you don't agree with play D&D the way they want to play D&D. I propose a live and let live attitude, and you all jump down my throat thinking that I am promoting some made-up evil sjw terrorist organization determined to rule the world.

Bullshit. Pure 1000% bullshit.
Sorry I am not falling for this trap again. You woke SJWs only want those you approve of and who drink the kool-aid to join the hobby. If you and others like you had your way we would be blacklisted from every playing the hobby ever again.

The difference is I don't care who plays in this hobby. Unfortunately in a democracy even those who I think believe in evil abhorrent beliefs should be allowed to play. It's something you woke sJWs seem to forget about. Your not living in some totalitarian regime on who gets to decide who plays rpgs and who does not. Not all yet the more extreme woke SJWs sure as hell want to control who plays and runs.

Citation needed as again no one said that no one should play the rpg.

The Woke SJW disclaimer was not needed imo. I will never play with homophobic, anti-trans, or racist players. I sure as hell don't need you or an rpg company to tell me who I can or cannot allow at my tables. If you need to be told not to play with racists at tables one is fucking clueless

If you listen to yourselves, you sound ridiculous. Go GI Joe!!!

your not interested in a real discussion and only want an echo chamber. Rolling rolling keep the narratives rolling RAWHIDE!
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 31, 2020, 11:03:46 am
Wow. You actually are willing to deride someone who makes a very open and accepting statement that people should play the games that make them feel comfortable and safe???

Why? Do you think that some people are not allowed to be comfortable and safe? Do you think some people are not allowed to enjoy the games they like? I don't understand you motivation, here.

The hobby was always safe and comfortable. Unfortunately jerks, racists and other terrible people exist. My table you are treated with respect and as an equal. I'm also not going to ask a player to return if anything and everything offends them. Gaming is for fun and to unwind. Not to be walking continually on eggshells because player XYZ lacks the ability and willingness to be an adult.

If you need constant and continual validation to live one life. All I can say is grow up and act like an adult. It's not my problem or the rest of the other members who play rpgs to cater to children in adult bodies. Life in general is not safe and comfortable.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on October 31, 2020, 11:16:31 am
Right-wing extremist games already exist. There are several. I'm talking about RaHoWa or Myfarog. I'm sure left-wingers would be disparaged by players of those games. I'm sure those who play these games would care about the politics of their players as well.

I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?

I think the name is a little silly too, but I think that is the point. It is a game that is just embracing that and letting it run. I think it is very brave and forward.

So you can discuss the above games no problems because you feel strongly against them. Why are we not allowed the same courtesy to discuss TSL. You Woke SJWs really like being hypocrites and your double standards don't you. The same rules that I expect others to follow don't apply to me because of reasons and feels. Or tossed aside when they are inconvenient and getting in the way of the narrative. 
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 31, 2020, 12:14:33 pm
Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

Literal fucking LOL at this crap. Jesus Christ you people truly are insane.
Wow. You actually are willing to deride someone who makes a very open and accepting statement that people should play the games that make them feel comfortable and safe???

Why? Do you think that some people are not allowed to be comfortable and safe? Do you think some people are not allowed to enjoy the games they like? I don't understand you motivation, here.

"WOW, YIKES, WOW, OMG, I JUST CAN'T EVEN!!"

Piss off with your pearl clutching, no one here is impressed.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Brad on October 31, 2020, 01:34:08 pm
Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

Literal fucking LOL at this crap. Jesus Christ you people truly are insane.
Wow. You actually are willing to deride someone who makes a very open and accepting statement that people should play the games that make them feel comfortable and safe???

Why? Do you think that some people are not allowed to be comfortable and safe? Do you think some people are not allowed to enjoy the games they like? I don't understand you motivation, here.

Get a life, loser. Seriously.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: VisionStorm on October 31, 2020, 01:46:24 pm
Right-wing extremist games already exist. There are several. I'm talking about RaHoWa or Myfarog. I'm sure left-wingers would be disparaged by players of those games. I'm sure those who play these games would care about the politics of their players as well.

And both of those games are a running punchline in RPG communities everywhere.

I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?

...As the US burns in riots and people are attacked and killed in the streets.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: WillInNewHaven on October 31, 2020, 03:18:17 pm
Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it. I mean how much more hypocritical can you get?

Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Why the hell do you care about this? Are you so easily offended? Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.
I don't think that anybody really cares about an RPG for LGBTQ people. Though, it is a silly idea. You can play a "thirsty lesbian" in any RPG that I have ever played with no additional difficulty. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a silly name for a game too, it strikes me as more sexploitation than social justice, and that is probably how they should have done it. Like Car Lesbians.

As for why we would let this bother us? I can only speak for myself in saying that a single small time indy game with SJW elements doesn't trouble me at all, even if the creators say that I'm bad and wrong and not allowed to play.

The problem is that this isn't a one time thing with one minor game. It is an extremist attitude which is coming to dominate all geeky hobbies from RPG's to video games to shows, movies, and books. It seems like we can't engage in any geeky activity without being beat over the had with how bad straight white men are and what villains people are for disagreeing.

Would you be pissed off about a bunch of right wing extremists making a RPG where they said that left wingers are terrible and not allowed to play? I bet you would hate that, even if it was an unpopular game made by a small group. How would you feel then if a high percentage of game companies were like that, if most of the TV shows were like that?

Why are you here chastising us for complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians instead of asking them why they care about the politics of role players?
Right-wing extremist games already exist. There are several. I'm talking about RaHoWa or Myfarog. I'm sure left-wingers would be disparaged by players of those games. I'm sure those who play these games would care about the politics of their players as well.

I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?

I think the name is a little silly too, but I think that is the point. It is a game that is just embracing that and letting it run. I think it is very brave and forward.

I played in a Myfarog camapaign for a few weeks and there wasn't anything right-wing about it. The GM created his own setting, in the ancient fertile crescent and the rules were just (mediocre) RPG rules. I have glanced at the settings published by the originator of the game and they did seem to indicate something worse than being merely on the political right. 
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 31, 2020, 03:28:04 pm
Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.

harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 31, 2020, 04:45:47 pm
Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.

harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.

Good catch. The re-definition of terms is insidious.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 31, 2020, 06:26:53 pm
Wow. You actually are willing to deride someone who makes a very open and accepting statement that people should play the games that make them feel comfortable and safe???

Why? Do you think that some people are not allowed to be comfortable and safe? Do you think some people are not allowed to enjoy the games they like? I don't understand you motivation, here.

What proof do you present that TSL will make LGBT people feel comfortable and safe? What proof do you present that current other games do not make LGBT people feel comfortable and safe?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jeff37923 on October 31, 2020, 06:31:18 pm
You take the existence of this game as an attack against you. A game that appeals to otherwise marginalized people, who just want to have fun playing a role-playing game that appeals to them.

I take the existence of this game as a cheap cash grab using old marketing tricks that have been seen before.

What proof do you present that these "marginalized" people will have fun with playing TSL?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: S'mon on October 31, 2020, 06:41:15 pm
I played in a Myfarog camapaign for a few weeks and there wasn't anything right-wing about it. The GM created his own setting, in the ancient fertile crescent and the rules were just (mediocre) RPG rules. I have glanced at the settings published by the originator of the game and they did seem to indicate something worse than being merely on the political right.

The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 31, 2020, 06:47:19 pm
I played in a Myfarog camapaign for a few weeks and there wasn't anything right-wing about it. The GM created his own setting, in the ancient fertile crescent and the rules were just (mediocre) RPG rules. I have glanced at the settings published by the originator of the game and they did seem to indicate something worse than being merely on the political right.

The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.

Oh no Varg isn't a Nazi, he's in fact much dumber than that. He has his own brand of anarcho-primitivism based on some half baked interpretation Norse mythology which is in fact just sexed up atheism where everything represents the placenta, womb, and vaguely defined ancestral knowledge.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Cloyer Bulse on October 31, 2020, 07:47:24 pm
Quote from: ”fixable”
Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it....

That is sufficient reason. Everyone has the right to stand on a soapbox and proclaim to everyone within shouting distance his personal opinion regarding a product.

Quote from: ”fixable
...I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?...

Many people would argue that normalizing sexual deviancy, whether for the purpose of mocking traditional values or otherwise, harms society, and all such persons have a right to voice their opinions.

Quote from: ”fixable”
You take the existence of this game as an attack against you. A game that appeals to otherwise marginalized people, who just want to have fun playing a role-playing game that appeals to them.

One could argue that games that appeal “to otherwise marginalized people” promote a victim mentality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality), and thereby encourage violent conflict resolution and suppression of free speech. It's well known that leftists have no problem with committing violent acts against anyone that is a “Nazi”, by their definition, who "have points of view that can cause active harm to others". As such, statements such as "This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots", can be reasonably interpreted as a call for violence.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Armchair Gamer on October 31, 2020, 08:02:56 pm
Oh no Varg isn't a Nazi, he's in fact much dumber than that. He has his own brand of anarcho-primitivism based on some half baked interpretation Norse mythology which is in fact just sexed up atheism where everything represents the placenta, womb, and vaguely defined ancestral knowledge.

   He's also convinced that Tolkien was either a crypto-pagan or would have been if it weren't for the social pressure that kept him a Catholic ... in early 20th century England.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Arkansan on October 31, 2020, 10:03:46 pm
Oh no Varg isn't a Nazi, he's in fact much dumber than that. He has his own brand of anarcho-primitivism based on some half baked interpretation Norse mythology which is in fact just sexed up atheism where everything represents the placenta, womb, and vaguely defined ancestral knowledge.

   He's also convinced that Tolkien was either a crypto-pagan or would have been if it weren't for the social pressure that kept him a Catholic ... in early 20th century England.

Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 01, 2020, 02:43:22 am
The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.
And as I've said, even as Jewish person I would go ahead and play his game if it were any good. But it's not. And that's the thing about ideologues of every persuasion: they produce only shit.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: jhkim on November 01, 2020, 12:34:21 pm
Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.
harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.
I agree that RPGs don't cause harm -- but I disagree with your argument here.

Psychological harm exists. Consider two boys. One boy gets in a lot of trouble. He gets in some fights, gets beat up, but he learns from it. Another boy never gets into fights. His parents forbid it, and they constantly belittle him, and never let him get into trouble, while never laying a finger on him. I think the second boy may grow up to be far more harmed than the first, with a lot of psychological issues. You can seriously harm someone while never causing them a bit of physical injury. Abusive spouses and cult leaders are other examples of those who cause psychological harm.

That said, I agree that I don't think RPGs cause harm. *People* can cause psychological harm, especially if they have psychological power like parents or other close relationships.

However, I don't see any evidence, for example, that there is a book that if read, will cause psychological harm. Lovecraft was an awesome writer, but his ideas were fiction. I don't believe that book banning is ever justified. Someone can read the ideas of Hitler or other terrible people, and that doesn't make them into a nazi. Reading is a conscious activity that a person engages in at their will.

Likewise, tabletop RPGs are entirely created by conscious action by people, for entertainment purposes. There is no power there. I don't see any reason to play MyFarog, but I don't believe that if I ran it, that any psychological harm would happen to me or others. I wouldn't be brainwashed into a crypto-pagan or whatever. That's not how RPGs work.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: WillInNewHaven on November 01, 2020, 12:56:40 pm
The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.
And as I've said, even as Jewish person I would go ahead and play his game if it were any good. But it's not. And that's the thing about ideologues of every persuasion: they produce only shit.

The rules are, at best, mediocre. From what I have seen, the published settings are horrible. Hower, the GM was very good and that's more important, to me, than the game rules.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: sureshot on November 01, 2020, 01:43:04 pm
That is what makes some of the more extre,e Woke SJw position on banning books hypocritical.

If it's something they like and approve of no one better dare ban or remove it from stores ever. If they hate or dislike the author then all copies should be found, thrown into a big pile and burnt. That is why it is harder and harder to find common ground. It's either do things their way or get cancelled or doxxed or both.

why would I want to waste time with such irrational evil people.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Eirikrautha on November 01, 2020, 02:02:22 pm
Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.
harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.
I agree that RPGs don't cause harm -- but I disagree with your argument here.

Psychological harm exists. Consider two boys. One boy gets in a lot of trouble. He gets in some fights, gets beat up, but he learns from it. Another boy never gets into fights. His parents forbid it, and they constantly belittle him, and never let him get into trouble, while never laying a finger on him. I think the second boy may grow up to be far more harmed than the first, with a lot of psychological issues. You can seriously harm someone while never causing them a bit of physical injury. Abusive spouses and cult leaders are other examples of those who cause psychological harm.

That said, I agree that I don't think RPGs cause harm. *People* can cause psychological harm, especially if they have psychological power like parents or other close relationships.

However, I don't see any evidence, for example, that there is a book that if read, will cause psychological harm. Lovecraft was an awesome writer, but his ideas were fiction. I don't believe that book banning is ever justified. Someone can read the ideas of Hitler or other terrible people, and that doesn't make them into a nazi. Reading is a conscious activity that a person engages in at their will.

Likewise, tabletop RPGs are entirely created by conscious action by people, for entertainment purposes. There is no power there. I don't see any reason to play MyFarog, but I don't believe that if I ran it, that any psychological harm would happen to me or others. I wouldn't be brainwashed into a crypto-pagan or whatever. That's not how RPGs work.
When you have to add an adjective to your noun, frequently you must do so because you are changing the meaning of the term.  If "harm" included mental effects, you wouldn't need to preface it with "psychological."  You don't need to preface "harm" with "physical" because it is assumed (and is rather redundant).

But, overall, I agree with your points above: that people can psychologically damage others, but inert media can't.  And that books, games, movies, and other forms of speech can't harm anyone.  Which is the crux of his bogus and hypocritical argument as to why some games should be critisized and some shouldn't.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: WillInNewHaven on November 01, 2020, 05:12:15 pm
Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

Literal fucking LOL at this crap. Jesus Christ you people truly are insane.
Wow. You actually are willing to deride someone who makes a very open and accepting statement that people should play the games that make them feel comfortable and safe???

Why? Do you think that some people are not allowed to be comfortable and safe? Do you think some people are not allowed to enjoy the games they like? I don't understand you motivation, here.

I have played in and run games since 1975 and find it odd that people need specific game rules to feel comfortable and safe. Yes, there are rules sets that might make a person feel uncomfortable or unsafe but D & D, and I don't particularly like D & D works fine for diverse people, as does my own Glory Road Roleplay or GURPS or Traveler. We have almost always had at least one lesbian and more than one gay man in our gaming group.

Still, if the rules make for a fun game, I have no problem with them. 
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ratman_tf on November 01, 2020, 06:05:29 pm
No one is safe at my table. If someone gets out of line, I'm chucking dice at them.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Shasarak on November 01, 2020, 06:19:00 pm
No one is safe at my table. If someone gets out of line, I'm chucking dice at them.

I heard one story about a DM that used to shoot his Players with a pellet gun if their characters got hit in the game.

I guess you could make an RPG that had specific rules about not doing that which would make it "safer"
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Morblot on November 02, 2020, 09:27:30 am
Is "sword lesbian" an euphemism for "trans woman"?

How come it takes so many people to write a PbtA hack?

Why is the art so goddamn ugly?

So many questions...
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Alderaan Crumbs on November 02, 2020, 11:37:03 am
I find it bizarre that the same people who need safe spaces flock to highly violent and/or sexualized games that so often touch upon mental illness and self-segregate their chosen victim-group(s) from those they paint as bad. Such social self-flagellation is head scratching, at best.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: DocJones on November 04, 2020, 01:23:25 pm
I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?
The authors of Myfarog and Thisrty Sword Lesbians have something in common, they both despise Christians.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 04, 2020, 01:31:28 pm
Some of the thread posters here seem to be missing a critical point:

You will be made to care.

You will not be given the option to 'live and let live'. You will not be allowed to 'let them play their way'. That's been the crux of this argument for quite some time.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: DocJones on November 04, 2020, 01:40:26 pm
Psychological harm exists. Consider two boys. One boy gets in a lot of trouble. He gets in some fights, gets beat up, but he learns from it. Another boy never gets into fights. His parents forbid it, and they constantly belittle him, and never let him get into trouble, while never laying a finger on him. I think the second boy may grow up to be far more harmed than the first, with a lot of psychological issues. You can seriously harm someone while never causing them a bit of physical injury. Abusive spouses and cult leaders are other examples of those who cause psychological harm.

Agreed.  The second boy might grow up to identify as a thirsty sword lesbian.

I find it bizarre that the same people who need safe spaces flock to highly violent and/or sexualized games that so often touch upon mental illness and self-segregate their chosen victim-group(s) from those they paint as bad. Such social self-flagellation is head scratching, at best.

Isolation is typical behavior of those involved in cults.  The notion that one should not play RPGs with those outside of the cult is real gatekeeping. 


Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: WillInNewHaven on November 04, 2020, 05:13:32 pm
Some of the thread posters here seem to be missing a critical point:

You will be made to care.

You will not be given the option to 'live and let live'. You will not be allowed to 'let them play their way'. That's been the crux of this argument for quite some time.

i agree that is their intent, or some of them. But what are they going to do? Come to my place on game night and say I'm doing it wrong. I don't need the industry as long as I have the hobby.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 05, 2020, 07:59:14 am
Some of the thread posters here seem to be missing a critical point:

You will be made to care.

You will not be given the option to 'live and let live'. You will not be allowed to 'let them play their way'. That's been the crux of this argument for quite some time.

i agree that is their intent, or some of them. But what are they going to do? Come to my place on game night and say I'm doing it wrong. I don't need the industry as long as I have the hobby.
Naw, they won't sully their minds with your unclean thoughts. But beware if you've got any social media presence. They do love a good dogpile and shaming -- up to and including contacting your employer for your 'bigotry'.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Torque2100 on November 05, 2020, 08:37:57 am
Some of the thread posters here seem to be missing a critical point:

You will be made to care.

You will not be given the option to 'live and let live'. You will not be allowed to 'let them play their way'. That's been the crux of this argument for quite some time.

i agree that is their intent, or some of them. But what are they going to do? Come to my place on game night and say I'm doing it wrong. I don't need the industry as long as I have the hobby.
Naw, they won't sully their minds with your unclean thoughts. But beware if you've got any social media presence. They do love a good dogpile and shaming -- up to and including contacting your employer for your 'bigotry'.

I don't doubt that they really would like to be able to do that, but let's not give in to paranoid fantasy.  What are they actually going to do?  Kick your door down and confiscate your book collection and hard drives?  If these people really were as powerful as some on this board seem to think, this site wouldn't exist and Pundit wouldn't be nearly as successful as he is.

You are not defenseless against social media dogpiling.  You have options.  Keep your work life and private life separate on social media.  Consider setting your accounts to protected or private for a while.  Consider sticking to discussion boards like the RPGsite or Discord servers that can be gatekept. Embrace the BlockBot.  The most likely ringleaders of these shaming campaigns are known, find their Twitter accounts and run blockbots on all of them to pre-emptively block all of their followers.  You don't owe them access to your social media accounts or your private life.  Try to keep anonymous.

Most of all, do NOT let them move into your head and live there rent free.  Evict their deadbeat asses, live your life and be happy.  If you allow these people to make you as miserable and paranoid as they are, they win.

It's not going to be perfect or fun, but being part of an outcast, marginalized minority never is.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 05, 2020, 08:55:52 am

I don't doubt that they really would like to be able to do that, but let's not give in to paranoid fantasy.  What are they actually going to do?  Kick your door down and confiscate your book collection and hard drives?  If these people really were as powerful as some on this board seem to think, this site wouldn't exist and Pundit wouldn't be nearly as successful as he is.

You are not defenseless against social media dogpiling.  You have options.  Keep your work life and private life separate on social media.  Consider setting your accounts to protected or private for a while.  Consider sticking to discussion boards like the RPGsite or Discord servers that can be gatekept. Embrace the BlockBot.  The most likely ringleaders of these shaming campaigns are known, find their Twitter accounts and run blockbots on all of them to pre-emptively block all of their followers.  You don't owe them access to your social media accounts or your private life.  Try to keep anonymous.

Most of all, do NOT let them move into your head and live there rent free.  Evict their deadbeat asses, live your life and be happy.  If you allow these people to make you as miserable and paranoid as they are, they win.

It's not going to be perfect or fun, but being part of an outcast, marginalized minority never is.
Personally, I'd avoid social media like the plague it is.

And while yes, you definitely do NOT want them living in your head, rent free (the old saw about 'the best revenge is just living well' springs to mind here)... don't discount those social dogpiles. Look at Alec Holowka, for example.

I'm not saying 'give up'. I am saying 'know your enemies, and yourself' as Sun Tzu said.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Torque2100 on November 05, 2020, 09:06:32 am

I don't doubt that they really would like to be able to do that, but let's not give in to paranoid fantasy.  What are they actually going to do?  Kick your door down and confiscate your book collection and hard drives?  If these people really were as powerful as some on this board seem to think, this site wouldn't exist and Pundit wouldn't be nearly as successful as he is.

You are not defenseless against social media dogpiling.  You have options.  Keep your work life and private life separate on social media.  Consider setting your accounts to protected or private for a while.  Consider sticking to discussion boards like the RPGsite or Discord servers that can be gatekept. Embrace the BlockBot.  The most likely ringleaders of these shaming campaigns are known, find their Twitter accounts and run blockbots on all of them to pre-emptively block all of their followers.  You don't owe them access to your social media accounts or your private life.  Try to keep anonymous.

Most of all, do NOT let them move into your head and live there rent free.  Evict their deadbeat asses, live your life and be happy.  If you allow these people to make you as miserable and paranoid as they are, they win.

It's not going to be perfect or fun, but being part of an outcast, marginalized minority never is.
Personally, I'd avoid social media like the plague it is.

And while yes, you definitely do NOT want them living in your head, rent free (the old saw about 'the best revenge is just living well' springs to mind here)... don't discount those social dogpiles. Look at Alec Holowka, for example.

I'm not saying 'give up'. I am saying 'know your enemies, and yourself' as Sun Tzu said.

My point exactly. You don't owe these people access to your life.  If you MUST have a Twitter account for work, because you run an indie RPG publishing company for instance, keep your work social media STRICTLY separate from your private life.  No politics, no personal life BS, product announcements and hype generation only. If you see someone trying to start a social media dogpile, blockbot their entire followers list on sight.

Or if your product has a Subreddit, make  sure you created it and are a moderator. I know that's against Retiquette, but that rule is basically never enforced.

The best option, though, is to avoid those sites altogether if you have the option.  The internet worked just fine for 30 years with no Social Media sites.  We don't need them.  Small, gatekept communities are vastly superior.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Doc Sammy on November 05, 2020, 09:12:46 am
Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it. I mean how much more hypocritical can you get?

Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Why the hell do you care about this? Are you so easily offended? Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.
I don't think that anybody really cares about an RPG for LGBTQ people. Though, it is a silly idea. You can play a "thirsty lesbian" in any RPG that I have ever played with no additional difficulty. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a silly name for a game too, it strikes me as more sexploitation than social justice, and that is probably how they should have done it. Like Car Lesbians.

As for why we would let this bother us? I can only speak for myself in saying that a single small time indy game with SJW elements doesn't trouble me at all, even if the creators say that I'm bad and wrong and not allowed to play.

The problem is that this isn't a one time thing with one minor game. It is an extremist attitude which is coming to dominate all geeky hobbies from RPG's to video games to shows, movies, and books. It seems like we can't engage in any geeky activity without being beat over the had with how bad straight white men are and what villains people are for disagreeing.

Would you be pissed off about a bunch of right wing extremists making a RPG where they said that left wingers are terrible and not allowed to play? I bet you would hate that, even if it was an unpopular game made by a small group. How would you feel then if a high percentage of game companies were like that, if most of the TV shows were like that?

Why are you here chastising us for complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians instead of asking them why they care about the politics of role players?
Right-wing extremist games already exist. There are several. I'm talking about RaHoWa or Myfarog. I'm sure left-wingers would be disparaged by players of those games. I'm sure those who play these games would care about the politics of their players as well.

I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?

I think the name is a little silly too, but I think that is the point. It is a game that is just embracing that and letting it run. I think it is very brave and forward.

I played in a Myfarog camapaign for a few weeks and there wasn't anything right-wing about it. The GM created his own setting, in the ancient fertile crescent and the rules were just (mediocre) RPG rules. I have glanced at the settings published by the originator of the game and they did seem to indicate something worse than being merely on the political right.

Pretty much this.

Despite my beefs with Varg Vikernes, I did buy a copy of MYFAROG off of Amazon out of morbid curiosity (it was a secondhand used copy so I wouldn't give Varg my money)

To Varg's credit, he's always made a point of separating his music from his politics and with the base MYFAROG setting, there's enough plausible deniability that you'd probably assume it was a generic vaguely Nordic-themed and Tolkien-influenced Iron Age low fantasy setting if you didn't know who made it.

If you're going with the base rules, it's pretty much in the vein of a late 80's RPG and the base setting of Thule has setting elements that only really seem racist when you put it in context with Varg's actual political beliefs.

I honestly think the big recent "Orcs are blacks" controversy in D&D 5E and the Big Purple crowd is partly related to the MYFAROG controversies in 2013-2014. People claimed that one of the "Always Chaotic Evil" monster races was meant to be a grotesque parody of African tribals and he instead insisted they were meant as his take on Tolkien's Orcs (probably as a "Cover Your Own Ass" move)

Another book I bought as part of that same deal was The Coming, a modern/post-apocalyptic setting for the MYFAROG rules set in our time and that one actually is pretty damn racist and also pretty anti-American too.

Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: tenbones on November 05, 2020, 09:45:55 am
More to the point - calling Orcs "blacks", is their gateway to attacking anything related to Tolkien which therefore allows them to attack virtually everything/anything in the Fantasy genre since they project the sin of "X-ism" by proximity.

It also allows them to stir up sympathy purchases by marketing this stuff to their base. People will get to virtue-signal their purchases of Sword Lesbians and never play it.

It's cannibal-parasite marketing.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Chris24601 on November 05, 2020, 11:44:29 am
Naw, they won't sully their minds with your unclean thoughts. But beware if you've got any social media presence. They do love a good dogpile and shaming -- up to and including contacting your employer for your 'bigotry'.
Social media shaming and going at your employer doesn't work when you work for yourself. My boss is a jerk who works me too hard, but what can you do?  ;)

More to the point - calling Orcs "blacks", is their gateway to attacking anything related to Tolkien which therefore allows them to attack virtually everything/anything in the Fantasy genre since they project the sin of "X-ism" by proximity.
My orcs are straight up Roman expys thank you very much. The biggest problem with SJW gamers is they completely lack imagination.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: ArrozConLeche on November 05, 2020, 12:09:09 pm
This sounds awesome. I could play a woman trapped in a guy's body who turns lesbians on. Anyone want to run this?
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Omega on November 05, 2020, 02:43:12 pm
I know people here there and everywhere looove to say this SJW agenda is not as big s others claim.

Then why is it bleeding into absolutely everything? And increasingly so. Not decreasingly so.

This game is just one of many of these and its only going to get worse.
Title: Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
Post by: Gagarth on November 06, 2020, 08:15:54 am
A game about Lesbians with swords  bashing people over the head all fine and dandy, a game about hetro male knights bashing people over the head nasty fascism which needs a a 7th edition do get rid of all the fascism. Typical fucking Neo-Marxist hypocrisy.