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Author Topic: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really  (Read 9973 times)

Dimitrios

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2020, 09:52:07 am »
I mean, they're entitled to their interests as much as you and I, right? Them liking stuff I do not like is not different than my liking stuff they do not like. As the saying goes, their right to swing their arm ends when it connects with my body - and with this, their arm isn't coming anywhere near my body. So live and let live. If this is the stuff they dig, who am I to judge it badwrongfun?

I don't think anyone has questioned Evil Hat's right to make and market games however they want. What people have done is express their opinion that EH are being jerks in this particular case, and I agree.

Talking up how cool your game is and why it's fun is how people who are genuinely interested in rpgs market their games. Listing all the groups that are not welcome, on the other hand, is what you do when you just want to exploit toxic culture wars bullshit in order make a fast buck. Doing that is Evil Hat's right, and it sounds like they're succeeding.

But some of us think that the world would be a better place with less toxic culture wars bullshit contaminating everything, and EH seems to be dedicated to encouraging more. Again, their right, but people have a right to say that it's a lousy way to act.

sureshot

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2020, 09:53:32 am »
Personally I don't really have any issue with the content of the game, people should play whatever games they enjoy. I'm not saying they're having badwrongfun. My issue is the kind of people behind this game are the kind of people that would not extend the same live and let live approach to you. The very second you cross a perceived line they would howl for you to be driven out of "gaming".

Agreed and seconded and sums up the way I feel.

They can make the most open and woke rpg in the world while I would have no interest in it, they are free to run or play it. Except they would refuse to give myself and others the same courtesy and would want to ban the rpgs I like and myself from the hobby. For not bending the knee or being woke enough. Respect is earned not given and one has to also give it in turn to others. For the woke crowd I would be called ableist simply because I refuse to allow the modern equivalents of wheelchairs in gaming. Or that the person wanting to play the character with a disability has to play both the flaws and benefits of having a wheelchair.

The reasons these types have so much success in forcing corporations, groups, communities, etc to bend the knee is because they are playing a zero sum game. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck'em, I hope their game sucks and I intend to mock them at every possible turn. You'll tolerate these people right up until your tolerance makes them the driving force behind industry decisions and gaming culture.


What goes around comes around as almost all the companies that bent the knee and/or became woke either faced massive public backlash or worse less sales. I also agree fuck them as they would not do the same for me.

VisionStorm

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2020, 10:26:34 am »
I have no issues with this. They are not hiding anything. They are marketing directly to their audience and stating upfront who they want as their customers, and who they do not as their customers. It's a specifically niche product, and it seems they are on pace to sell over $100,000 worth of it in their Kickstarter in true capitalist fashion.

Why is this an issue?

My issue with it is simple, these are the kind of people that froth at the mouth for a chance to whip up the mob and cancel someone for wrong think. I find them and their ideologies ridiculous and not worthy of respect. So in short, fuck'em.

OK, but they are not cancelling anyone, and not asking for your respect, with this thing. I am sure they dislike my ideologies and yours as much as you or I dislike theirs. So, what's the issue? They're just selling some stuff to people who like their stuff, and not to people who do not like their stuff. Isn't that what you'd prefer they do with their time, rather than cancel people and demand respect from those who do not respect them?

I mean, they're entitled to their interests as much as you and I, right? Them liking stuff I do not like is not different than my liking stuff they do not like. As the saying goes, their right to swing their arm ends when it connects with my body - and with this, their arm isn't coming anywhere near my body. So live and let live. If this is the stuff they dig, who am I to judge it badwrongfun?

OK, but no one here is cancelling anyone. We're just voicing our dislike for this product and criticizing its marketing, art and concept, as well as the creator's ideology, which they wear on their sleeve and voice right on the game's Kickstarter page, along with some pointed words towards anyone who feels differently. So what's the issue?

We're just saying some stuff to people who agree with our stuff in a forum about discussing stuff (mainly tabletop RPGs, which this discussion is about), where people who disagree with our stuff are free to comment. Isn't that what you'd prefer we do with our time, rather than cancel their game or brigade their Kickstarter page and demand respect from those who do not respect us and call us fascists?

We're not telling them to carter to us or demanding that they adjust their product to fit our whims or sensibilities. Or claiming that they don't have a right to game how they like or create the games that they want. I mean, we're entitled to our interests and our views as much as you and them, right? Us criticizing their stuff is no different than they calling us fascists (actually it kinda is, but not by much). So live and let live. If this is the stuff we dig, who are you to judge it badwrongfun?

sureshot

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2020, 10:41:25 am »
Honestly VS to me at least it is starting to come off as an attempt at censorship. Either we endorse the product fully or we are bad people for daring to criticize said product. Apparently one can't have an opposing point of view. They are allowed to tell us we are terrible people for criticizing the product. Yet we are not entitled to do the opposite. As I said it comes down to not being given the same courtesy.

Mistwell

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2020, 12:10:49 pm »


Personally I don't really have any issue with the content of the game, people should play whatever games they enjoy. I'm not saying they're having badwrongfun. My issue is the kind of people behind this game are the kind of people that would not extend the same live and let live approach to you. The very second you cross a perceived line they would howl for you to be driven out of "gaming".

But THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT WITH THIS PRODUCT. You're basically saying "bad people doing...something which does not involve them being bad people."

If these bad people were having a cookout, would you object? If they were just walking down the street, would you object? Are you just saying anything they do in life is objectionable because they are bad people? WTF does your complaint about "they would be bad to me" have to do with this product they're selling which does not involve them being bad to you or anyone?

Quote
The reasons these types have so much success in forcing corporations, groups, communities, etc to bend the knee is because they are playing a zero sum game. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck'em, I hope their game sucks and I intend to mock them at every possible turn. You'll tolerate these people right up until your tolerance makes them the driving force behind industry decisions and gaming culture.

But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product. I mean of course you are free to mock them - but I fail to see what they're doing by selling this product which is so objectionable. They're not engaging in the activity you find objectionable, but you're expending a lot of energy objecting to their existence anyway for...doing something you don't appear to object to?

Mistwell

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2020, 12:14:44 pm »
Honestly VS to me at least it is starting to come off as an attempt at censorship. Either we endorse the product fully or we are bad people for daring to criticize said product. Apparently one can't have an opposing point of view. They are allowed to tell us we are terrible people for criticizing the product. Yet we are not entitled to do the opposite. As I said it comes down to not being given the same courtesy.

Where are they telling you that you cannot criticize their product? Where are they doing ANY of what you just described concerning this product?

S'mon

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2020, 12:32:35 pm »
But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product.

Neither are the critics here. But we know that Evil Hat support Cancelling, and the people you're attacking here don't.

BTW do you think it's ok to refer to "Fascists & TERFs" in promotional material for a game? Or is it ok to criticise that? Personally I find it repulsive, so by extension I find the people who talk and think like that repulsive.
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Mercurius

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2020, 12:59:38 pm »
The info is out there. The DSM-IV called it "gender identity disorder" but it has been re-named "gender dysphoria" in the DSM V, because it is no longer seen as a disorder (or illness).

Now whether or not you or I consider it a disorder, illness, condition, etc, is beside the point. It really comes down to ideological framing.

Certainly some of the "ideological framing" going on is this post. And Visionstorm's attempt to cite "sources" that are not the APA, and do not reference the DSM that you cite as "proof".

You point out the name change from "identity disorder" to "dysphoria" in the DSM as "proof" that it is "no longer seen as a disorder (or illness)."

You conveniently do not explain what the DSM is, or is an abbreviation of. Allow me to help:

DSM = Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders = It's a mental disorder.

The APA (American Psychiatric Association) has re-named many other listings in the DSM in the past for clarity in diagnosis several times. Note that Homosexuality is not listed at all in the DSM

IMHO it does not take a genius to see that the change from "disorder" to "dysphoria" was done for political reasons so that APA will take less heat from trans activists who are too lazy to read or look up definitions in a dictionary. If you actually bother to compare the listings in DSM-IV-TR and the new DSM-V; you will find that the actual definitions of the "disorder/dysphoria" are still identical. (With more explanatory wording in the DSM-V about diagnosis).

Because I can: Listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders = It's a mental disorder. Not that hard guys.

Yes, the NHS and WHO both contradict the APA. (APA = the group of dedicated actual psychiatrists.)

News Flash! Woke activists with power to set policy are willing to lie and be disingenuous to push their agenda.

In other news: Water is Wet.

.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "ideological framing." I'm trying to point out that whether one sees it as a disorder or illness depends upon one's ideology - how we frame it. We all have an ideological framing, we all interpret and contextualize based upon our worldview. I am no more exempt from this than anyone else.

I was merely contrasting that with the APA and the DSM, which does not see it as a disorder. Not everything in the DSM is a disorder - don't get hung up on the title of the book. Presumably it is included in the DSM V because people experience suffering due to it. Meaning, the "illness" part is not feeling like a man trapped in a woman's body (or vice versa), but the resulting suffering - a lot of which has to do with lack of societal acceptance. This is a subtle and complex issue that can't blithely be written off by clarifying the title of a book.

What I see often getting lost--or simply not understood--in all the knee-jerk reactionism to everything woke, is that sometimes it is actually done out of kindness, in an attempt to ease suffering and address problems. Unfortunately it often, even usually, goes too far and becomes the kind of smothering quasi-fascism that people here get upset with. On the other side, though, is a frequent lack of compassion and understanding. So from the perspective of those not in either extreme camp, it comes off as a clusterfuck of two warring extremist dogmas.

Relating that to the topic at hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a bunch of fat lesbians creating an RPG and marketing it however they want. Just as there is nothing wrong with finding it annoying or not to one's taste. Unfortunately it often gets pushed to further extremes and people lose sight of the fact that we're all better served by both increased diversity (and range of RPG products and people playing them) and the freedom to discuss such things in whatever manner we choose, all within the umbrella of an inclusive environment and community. We're all united in our love of RPGs, after all. Wokesters lose sight of this, but so do some of the folks kneejerking against anything that has even the hint of wokeness.

sureshot

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2020, 01:00:20 pm »
Where are they telling you that you cannot criticize their product? Where are they doing ANY of what you just described concerning this product?

I don't respect anyone whether they be rpg creators or not who talk in SJW buzzwords and/or whose game descriptions come across as some virtue signalling woke manifesto

When a posters says "why are you bothered by this" my response is and will always be "why do you care and we are allowed to criticize an rpg". Followed by "just like your entitled to your opinion on the product so am, mind your own damn business". Sorry I ain't giving anyone an echo chamber simply because they might be offended at myself and others here having a difference of opinion. 

Not to mention you are not some new poster here. You know full well something like this was going to get a reaction, most likely a negative one. Being disingenuous and pretending to be purposefully naive at the reaction this product is getting here. Your not fooling anyone here. We are not very Woke or SJW here and you know it. What other reaction were you expecting besides mockery and derision towards the product.


bat

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2020, 01:36:22 pm »

I'm starting to wonder if many of the people getting into roleplaying are getting into something really not form them. There is no room for dictators who tell other groups how to play. Just encourage people to play and have fun. If you feel a compulsion to dictate and meddle in the fun of others maybe roleplaying is not the right hobby.

I find this observation a lot more interesting. What's happened to the base premise that anyone can play? This group/movement seems to have become far more militant/demanding in recent times. Not a good look for RPGing in general.

Am wondering how Evil Hat's apparent strategy of focussing on a particular segment of the gaming market will play out. Is that segment big enough to sustain it, or will its association with that market mean a drop in revenue from other lines. ie is Fate Core to become or already its generic LGBTQI RPG?

I am not challenging the basic premise that anyone can play. I used to be a paid DM in a bar and I do it now for free, everyone was encouraged to give it a try. What I am saying is that some people, and I am not singling out the group presenting this game even, I have gamed with LGBTQ people since the 90s with no problems. What I am saying is that some people, regardless of sexual orientation or how comfortable they are with their bodies, are not good roleplayers and the hobby is not for them. I believe we have all encountered these people, rpgs are just not their thing, no matter how hard they try. I am not dictating who plays, I am saying I believe some people should question themselves about their approach to roleplaying and if it is the right fit for them. I like poker, I am not good at it, so I don't play poker.
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SHARK

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2020, 01:46:12 pm »
Greetings!

Oh, the whining hypocrisy and pearl-clutching! What would people be REEEing about if some company was to produce and market an RPG, entitled:

"Hungry Straight Hippos!"

Marketed with the admonition that "If you are a Communist, an SJW, or LGBTQ, you are not welcome to play this game. Pull your head out of your ass before sharing a game table with others."

There would be *oceans* of tears and gnashing of teeth, with shrill demands that such a company or author be cancelled and exposed as a terrible monster.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Slambo

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2020, 02:02:51 pm »


Personally I don't really have any issue with the content of the game, people should play whatever games they enjoy. I'm not saying they're having badwrongfun. My issue is the kind of people behind this game are the kind of people that would not extend the same live and let live approach to you. The very second you cross a perceived line they would howl for you to be driven out of "gaming".

But THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT WITH THIS PRODUCT. You're basically saying "bad people doing...something which does not involve them being bad people."

If these bad people were having a cookout, would you object? If they were just walking down the street, would you object? Are you just saying anything they do in life is objectionable because they are bad people? WTF does your complaint about "they would be bad to me" have to do with this product they're selling which does not involve them being bad to you or anyone?

Quote
The reasons these types have so much success in forcing corporations, groups, communities, etc to bend the knee is because they are playing a zero sum game. So as far as I'm concerned, fuck'em, I hope their game sucks and I intend to mock them at every possible turn. You'll tolerate these people right up until your tolerance makes them the driving force behind industry decisions and gaming culture.

But they are not using that force against anyone to do anything with this product. I mean of course you are free to mock them - but I fail to see what they're doing by selling this product which is so objectionable. They're not engaging in the activity you find objectionable, but you're expending a lot of energy objecting to their existence anyway for...doing something you don't appear to object to?

Your free to mock them but why are you mocking them that's baaaad

Jaeger

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2020, 03:59:46 pm »
Greetings!

Oh, the whining hypocrisy and pearl-clutching! What would people be REEEing about if some company was to produce and market an RPG, entitled:

"Hungry Straight Hippos!"

Marketed with the admonition that "If you are a Communist, an SJW, or LGBTQ, you are not welcome to play this game. Pull your head out of your ass before sharing a game table with others."

There would be *oceans* of tears and gnashing of teeth, with shrill demands that such a company or author be cancelled and exposed as a terrible monster.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

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Omega

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2020, 04:59:49 pm »
This borders on Trumpist xenophobia.

First of all, these folks are part of our society - they aren't invading. And in this case, they are gamers. Do you have an issue with them making games that they want to play?

Secondly, it is one thing to erase RPG history by making Oriental Adventures unavailable or drastically altering canonical lore. In my mind, that is the type of "wokism" that is deleterious to the hobby. But lesbians producing a lesbian RPG? Who cares? You don't have to play it.

1: off topic but more like an over-reaction to point 2.

2: Actually yes there is a faction invading society and trying very hard to force this on everyone. And have made appalling headway in some states in the US. Sharks over-reaction is likely due to that. The usual resistance from people trying to force a fake ideal on others. Or an unreasoning ideal. All of these "movements" have done far more harm than ever before.

3: As usual unfortunately theres ever some question if these developers are legit, or just grifters. Since its Evil Hat involved. All bets are off on wether its one or the other.

RandyB

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Re: Thirsty Sword Lesbians, no, really
« Reply #119 on: October 17, 2020, 06:25:12 pm »

3: As usual unfortunately theres ever some question if these developers are legit, or just grifters. Since its Evil Hat involved. All bets are off on wether its one or the other.

Embrace the awesome power of "and".