Quote from: CRKrueger;552053Of course you never know, .

Honestly, that's as far as you need to go.

Quote from: Aos;552050Nowhere did I say that he said that rape threats were okay, but he dismisses them as not a serious issue and states that the real issue is trolling.

You could take that as casually dismissing a realistic threat of physical harm (which again raises the police question) or as trying in a ham fisted way to make someone feel better about a bad incident. Lacking input from the author, we've no idea one way or the other. I choose to give the nod to "innocent until proven guilty" myself, especially given the bald lies perpetrated upon his writing.

Quote from: CRKrueger;552053Threats, however, should be banning offenses in any online community and should be reported to the authorities at all times.

Just for that Daedalus should have been banned IMO. Yes, it was pathetic and kind of like "I'm a martial arts expert and if I see you I'm going to kick your ass" thing, but that's a physical threat he made to the Pundit nonetheless. I would have banned him on the spot if the Pundit had lifted a finger to protest.

Quote from: The Traveller;552057You could take that as casually dismissing a realistic threat of physical harm (which again raises the police question) or as trying in a ham fisted way to make someone feel better about a bad incident. Lacking input from the author, we've no idea one way or the other. I choose to give the nod to "innocent until proven guilty" myself, especially given the bald lies perpetrated upon his writing.

Did you miss the part where he says the real issue is trolling?

Quote from: Aos;552060Did you miss the part where he says the real issue is trolling?

I've just read the immediate links. But there must be some weight lent to the concept that it was in fact just trolling, or at a minimum that he perceived this to be the case?

Again I deplore threats of any sort, particularly those of a sexual nature, but I'll be damned before I get sucked in a witch hunt.

A witch hunt? Now your extrapolating and using hyperbole.  No one is going to get burned at the stake. Rape however remains a real world issue. I think you need to step off the hyperbole, it only clouds the issue.

Do you think boycotting the products of a company whose products you find deplorable to be wrong? That seems counter intuitive to me.

My contentions in this thread are as follows:

Boycott is a legitimate way to address one's concerns with a product and those who have produce it.

Rape threats are wrong, and transcend mere trolling.

If you want to target a useless hack (and his fucked-up fans) who turns out crap products that are offensive (that's you, Grim), then you've got to widen the net to include idiots who have pretensions that what they are creating is 'art' or somehow meaningful. Yes, i'm talking about the Forge, misery tourism and Vincent Baker.

Where were the arseholes making a rumpus about this when stuff like Poison'd and Maid (which is another kettle of fucked-up shit. Murder condoms, anyone?) turned up?

I got PMs from posters at RPGnet when Poison'd was being discussed that would curl your hair - Rape of fictional characters in an RPG is fine and dandy 'cos it's not real. Shit, Baker even posted an 'actual play' that posited that fucking someone against their will with a dildo was "beautiful."

Quote from: Aos;552063No one is going to get burned at the stake.

Let's hope Mongoose's profit margins feel the same.

Quote from: Aos;552063Do you think boycotting the products of a company whose products you find deplorable to be wrong? That seems counter intuitive to me.

Please don't shift the goalposts.

Quote from: Aos;552063My contentions in this thread are as follows:

Boycott is a legitimate way to address one's concerns with a product and those who have produce it.

Rape threats are wrong, and transcend mere trolling.

a) correct, and b) correct. Neither of which address the issues raised thus far. I have already said he's comported himself in a dickish manner, but if we were to hang him for that half the human race would swing. The degree of dickishness is not to my mind commensurate to the degree of hysteria raised by the bulging purple and related outlets.

Quote from: GRIM;552041It is not saying that it is OK, rather that so long as we take trolls at face value in what they're saying: "GASP! HOW SEXIST!" we're ignoring the real problem which is one of antisocial behaviour, not sexism.

Okay, fine. Trolling people is antisocial behaviour... and you did eventually touch on it yesterday.

Quote from: GRIMFor the desperately hard of understanding. I have not asked anyone to send her rape threats and I know trolling when I see it. People like this young lady don't – apparently – know trolling when they see it and take it seriously, then use it to back up their claims of harassment, rape culture etc. I know that's the emotional payoff for you trolls, but the don't. Please don't do it, it really doesn't help. Not that you mean it to help, nor that you'll listen to me, but some people think failing to condemn something means you support it.

But. Trolling is harassment. Threatening someone with rape, is threatening someone with rape. It's not a matter of "innocent until proven guilty"; it's a thing, that has been done.

So the claims of harassment are being backed up by... actual harassment.

And your reply isn't "Fucking stop this, stop sending maladicta rape threats, stop harassing her. I don't want you to be doing this, because your behaviour is part of why we can't discuss anything like adults on the internet.". It's "some people don't know that you aren't being serious". It's a wishy-washy verbal slap on the wrist, and given that you're a decent writer you could have came up with something far more definite. Not that anyone would listen, but at least you would have tried.

It goes without saying, but people shouldn't be sending such threats to you or your family either.

Quote from: Aos;552063Rape threats are wrong, and transcend mere trolling.

A true troll has no remorse.

Quote from: Ladybird;552067But. Trolling is harassment. Threatening someone with rape, is threatening someone with rape. It's not a matter of "innocent until proven guilty"; it's a thing, that has been done.

So the claims of harassment are being backed up by... actual harassment.

Who cares?  The worst that will come of it is her feeling validated in her perpetual victimization.

Quote from: The Traveller;552066Let's hope Mongoose's profit margins feel the same.


Please don't shift the goalposts.


a) correct, and b) correct. Neither of which address the issues raised thus far. I have already said he's comported himself in a dickish manner, but if we were to hang him for that half the human race would swing. The degree of dickishness is not to my mind commensurate to the degree of hysteria raised by the bulging purple and related outlets.

Man, if you look back at my first post I have been saying exactly the same thing from the beginning of the thread, i have not moved the goalposts. I asked the question because some people feel that boycots equal censorship and I wanted to know if that's where your coming from. Because you seem to be saying that boycott equals witch hunt.

Also, if you look at my first post in this thread I clearly state that I don't give a fuck about what's going on at TPB it has nothing to with my two points at all.
 
As far as Mongoose goes, you lie down with dogs you get fleas. Not to mention the bulk of the attention he has garnered is because of the silly poll he posted. That's just bad PR. Speaking from personal experience I can tell you that stupidity often has a price.

Also, I'm not convinced by the if other people did something bad so its kind of sorta okay that he did something bad argument. If nothing else look what its done to politics in the US.

Quote from: B.T.;552068A true troll has no remorse.

Yeah, I know that I suck at it.

Quote from: Aos;552070I asked the question because some people feel that boycots equal censorship and I wanted to know if that's where your coming from. Because you seem to be saying that boycott equals witch hunt.

I take everything on a case by case basis. I do not feel there is ample evidence to justify the level of hate this man is receiving, although I am open to new evidence of course.

On the other hand I find it far more believable that there is an agenda being pursued here by sadly misled individuals and their cheerleaders, which represents everything wrong with the zeitgeist of the hobby today.

As far as I'm concerned MalaDicta has zero credibility on this issue.

Everything she's written is long-since debunked boilerplate from the Overprivileged Angry Middle-Class White University Women's Centre brigade.  None of it, none of it should be given an ounce of consideration, including the claims of rape threats.

If you haven't had the misfortune to be part of a liberal arts university community lately, I can assure you: this kind of random public shaming is par for the course.  It happens because it works: people like MalaDicta know that their targets will do just about anything rather than be seen as the mudslingers and extortionists want to paint them.

The only thing that works for people caught in this kind of foolishness is aggressive defense: do not back down, acknowledge the truths, and expose the lies being told about them.  Publicize the witch-hunter's slanderous statements and attempts to extort.  Stand up for their right to do business how and with whom they choose, and on what terms.

People who aren't Matt Sprange or James DesBrough sending threats to MalaDicta is a sideshow. It's a distraction.  It's got nothing to do with either Matt or James and they have no responsibility whatsoever to disavow them - assuming said threats even occurred.

First time poster here (registered a while ago but hadn't posted anything as I was just reading and lurking).  
Yes, I come from TBP (No they didn't ban me yet).  
One thing before I get to my ontopic comments.  It's a seriously refreshing change of pace not being scared shitless to post in a controversial thread and actually speak your mind.  So thanks for that.

On Topic:

Grim, Is there some existential reason you just haven't said "Stop threatening her you idiots!" or even "I don't support this kind of harrassment."?
By skirting the issue and just dismissing them as "trolls" you simply fan the flames.  
Of course their fucking trolls.  Anyone on the internet for 10 minutes knows that.  We all know you saying "stop it" won't stop them but it shows a little tact.  Something that's been missing from this whole giant clusterfuck.

I actually feel sorry for Matt at Mongoose.  The guy seems to mean well but has terminal foot-in-mouth disease.  He desperately needs to take a class or two on PR and how to handle shit like this.
First mistake, engaging with Maladicta at all.  
I hope Mongoose makes it through this (I'm sure they will).  

Take this as a warning Publishers.  Buy a time machine and make sure none of your freelancers or staff writers are going to say something fucking idiotic in the future.
You've been warned.