Quote from: RPGPunditHOWEVER, a major industry debate about rape, accusations of sexism from radical feminists, a witchhunt against Mongoose by the same, and the question of whether or not Jim Desborough is in fact a rape-obsessed lawncrapper (and whether that in fact justifies radical extremists on Tangency admittedly wanting to destroy entire gaming companies for "revenge" against a hobby they actually seem to hate) is DEFINITELY a valid topic for RPG open, as it connects directly to issues in our hobby and industry.
So if someone wants to restart this in a way that is less about Robmuadib coming here, and more about the topic at hand, they may.
RPGPundit
I think this is interesting because what we are seeing is a small group of people terrorizing a game publisher and an author.
Here is a link to the original post that has a pretty good synopsis of this clusterfuck.
Quote from: Ettinon on TheBigPurpleSo, after recent events some people have been thinking of not buying Mongoose products! I am curious about who is following through on this, or what people who haven't heard about it yet think of all this.
Basically...
• In a recent Tangency thread criticising James Desborough some users were upset that Mongoose publishes some of his stuff.*
• RPGnet poster MalaDicta started a petition (//www.change.org/petitions/mongoose-publishing-stop-publishing-james-desborough-rape-supporter) on the topic.
• Mongoose noticed, and decided to post a poll about it with a sarcastic topic and an excluded middle. An early cache is here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/62882540/ismongooseabadcompany.htm); later a "middle" option was added, and a while after the thread was quietly deleted.
• MalaDicta later had a conversation with Sprange, who accused her of being "immoral", "lying", and destroying Mongoose, among other things (transcript here (http://quidsquared.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/how-not-to-handle-a-pr-crisis-mongoose-edition-2/)).
That is about where we are at! Responses so far have been... mixed. MalaDicta herself has been receiving anonymous threatening emails since she started the petition. Desborough has tweeted (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&pagenumber=1954&perpage=40#post404816652) that those threats are "not genuine" and it's her fault for leaving herself open to trolls (original feed is protected now). Gareth Skarka posted a defense in the Mongoose thread (couldn't find a cache of that) which led to an argument with Sarah Darkmagic in which he called her an "odious little toad" and openly threatened her and her husband. (https://plus.google.com/u/0/110788823880804589168/posts/axHQJthrmNe) There might be some other commentary but if there is I've missed it.
So basically yeah, this sure is a thing.
*Note: This is a thread about Mongoose, things they do and the reactions to it, not the original mess. JamesCat said no more Desborough talk so if you wander off-topic you are going to make him a very sad man. And don't make personal attacks. Against anyone. Be a bro.
Now that James Desborough has joined in the conversation, the Mods at RPGnet have banned him for defending himself against his critics (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632877-Infraction-for-Barry-Desborough-1)-One-Day-Ban).
I said it before and I will say it again, this is one steaming pile of clusterfuck.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Jesus fucking Christ on a stick, sometimes I seriously loath RPGnet. Most the time I can just ignore it, but times like these it boils my blood pressure.
If anyone knows how to get in contact with James Desborough or Matthew Sprange, I'd like to hear their side of the story on this (without them having to worry about being banned for speaking their minds).
I hate to say this, but go look at the last several pages grognards.txt for some more perspective on this. Try to set aside your kneejerk reactions to the posters in question. I had a hard time with it, but like I said they've got some good points and it's what's being said, not whose saying it that is important. And I'm pretty sure a lot of the now deleted stuff is still up over there in the form of quotes. This whole thing has got me rethinking my views on a number of issues.
Navel gazing aside, I think regardless of how it is presented a boycott is a completely reasonable response. I also think that rape threats, whatever their veracity, are completely reprehensible and can in no way be condoned or justified or anything else. The rest in regards to who said what and all that and rpg.net's reaction to the same is really just pixel bitching, imo.
Fuck me if I don't agree with JD corely, which is as close to eating shit as I'll ever come.
My thoughts from the little I've gathered on it so far
Is rape a valid literary tool? Yes it is, one of the most recent and extant examples would be the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and the Gap series. Both wildly popular and both founded largely on acts of graphic rape.
Does this make those works an elaborate apologia for rape? I don't think so.
Are these works advocating rape? Definetely not, the books go on to explore the horrific effects and aftermath of rape in brutal detail. An unsparingly harsh spotlight I would say, in a world of shades of grey, a complicated message.
Other well respected works also incorporate rape, Shakespeare's Rape of Lucrere for one, whereby Lucrere becomes a political symbol.
Was this guy being dickish in his handling of what is a very powerful and evocative as well as sensitive area? Yes, I would say so. I woudn't include rape in an RPG any more than I'd include graphic descriptions of baby eating. It may happen in a gritty world, but my players don't need their faces rubbed in it. I don't think it has a place in gaming.
Again from what I can tell, the offended individual went on a pogrom against this guy, trying to get him fired, while on the other hand specifically saying she didn't want to deny him future opportunities. The moral high ground was definetely moving at that point. Mongoose should have stayed the hell out of it from the sounds of things.
There was a very hyperbolic threat (he said you'd better hope I'm not the vindictive bastard you say I am), but I don't see any rape threats.
In short, Tangency slops over into the real world. If I've picked up anything wrong, feel free to correct me, this is just the result of a quick skimming.
Quote from: Mistwell;551902Are you fucking kidding me?
Jesus fucking Christ on a stick, sometimes I seriously loath RPGnet. Most the time I can just ignore it, but times like these it boils my blood pressure.
The SA goons started the clusterfuck by commenting on Desborough's blog, mind you. RPGnet being what it is, with its rules and moderation style, it became the stage for the trap/showdown.
Not having any real familiarity with any of the major players here, I have found it very hard to look into this and gain much insight. The rpgnet thread is like 80 pages long and the difference between the two petitions is night and day. Can someone direct me to some of the original pages where this all started (prefably ones that aren't thousand post flame was)?
Quote from: jeff37923;551903If anyone knows how to get in contact with James Desborough or Matthew Sprange, I'd like to hear their side of the story on this (without them having to worry about being banned for speaking their minds).
Grim has a facebook, blog, email, etc, and Sprange seems easy to get hold of through email... but their inboxes are likely to be very busy right now. While getting a message to them would be easy, them seeing it might be difficult.
Look at MalaDicta's transcript though. I mean, read it. She starts off wilfully misinterpreting Sprange's replies, and it just gets worse from there. She certainly shouldn't be receiving threats of violence - and Grim's "they're not real threats! This is just the internet!" is fucking bullshit, threats of violence from strangers are still threats! - but she is a liar.
Mongoose's behaviour actually really annoys me, though. If you read their statement, they weren't planning on hiring Grim again anyway, the book is likely a low seller (So probably wouldn't be reprinted anyway), and Sprange claims to be the only Mongoose person to post on their boards, and hasn't recommended it. So they aren't going to do
anything about it, but are framing this as them bowing to popular demand... by doing bugger all (Although he does offer to sell MalaDicta the remaining stock at distributor rates, if she wants them disposed of. I don't believe the bit where he says he was about to offer to pay half - imo, "well I would have done this for you, but you ruined it" is passive-aggressive nastiness, and you all have permission to slap me if you see me doing it to my child!). I can't even boycott them, because the only Mongoose book I own is SWN, and if they did publish anything by one of my favourite authors I'd still buy it because doing anything else would just punish the author.
Essentially, everyone comes out of it looking like a twat, to various degrees. MalaDicta is a liar. Sprange is a coward (Hiding behind "we're a small business"? Really? I'd love to see their financials, but I seriously doubt that they're bad enough one angry internet woman could put them out of business... and if you have full-time employees, in the RPG industry, you're a huge business!). Grim... I actually agree with the point in his original blog post. I still wouldn't buy anything else he wrote though (I've got copies of Bloodsuckers and '45), because I find his "humour" patronising, mean-spirited and nasty; I'm quite content to quietly not to be one of his customers.
Note that "Barry Desborough" is only banned for a day, not permanently. Grim is permabanned from rpg.net, so by their rules any other account he made would get instantly banned. From Facebook, "Barry Desborough" is Grim's dad.
If there's anything amusing at all to take from this it's the fact that not a small amount of the posters brandishing their pitchforks over this are the same people who were defending exactly the same sort of shit when it was presented by a Forge favourite in Poison'd.
I'm all in favour of mercilessly mocking anyone who decides to air this sort of thing in a public place - i've done so consistantly for 7 years now, and gotten accused of prudery, stalking and all sorts inbetween. But there is a line beyond which you start to lose the moral highground.
It's impossible to comment objectively or, imo, factually on this. Not that it will stop me from trying.
I have never read Nymphology, The Temptress book or any of these other absurd sounding products. I've seen parts of them quoted in other discussions about this person whom I have never met and have no personal grievance with. However Nymphology appears to contain all sorts of bizarre stuff including a spell to summon a willing or unwilling sex partner.
Unpleasantness aside, I simply don't understand why something like that would get published - is there a huge market for this that I'm not aware of? It doesn't seem to have a context: there's no setting. It's just a satire/comedy work.
Ok. I have to say that I don't get it. It sounds like an awfully niche market to aim for, but what do I know.
i've tried to follow as much of this as I can, but it's just impossible. I think there are some valid points made against this guy's work. I get the sense he genuinely thinks its just humour and that it's genuinely not intended to be malicious or miogynistic. But why do it at all? Cthulhutech's rape camp stuff was enough to put me right off the game and that came with a context: so yes in that sense rape is a valid plot device. But not one that I want at the table. Nor, really, in the rulebooks (even Black Crusade, where people can follow the 'God of Rape', Slaanesh, is such behaviour mentioned, condoned or suggested).
But a spell to summon unwilling sex victism in a book whose only purpose seems to be to invoke a reaction...? I posted on his blog that I thought he was being a bit disingenuous by acting as if he was the wronged party here. Yes he might have a point, and no I don't like seeing people dogpiled, but you can't write books like this and then claim you're the victim...come on dude!
Quote from: One Horse Town;551926If there's anything amusing at all to take from this it's the fact that not a small amount of the posters brandishing their pitchforks over this are the same people who were defending exactly the same sort of shit when it was presented by a Forge favourite in Poison'd.
.
ah yes...poison'd. I remember the days. I think that was the darling of the day when first I graced this den of iniquity.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;551931(never mind the hentai sexy schoolgirl tentacle cardgame that got banned from kickstarter)
That wasn't him, it was Soda Pop Miniatures. He just had a very similar idea a few years ago.
What amazes me is that something like this didn't happen sooner. I mean, RPG books have had material which would be considered misogynistic for decades, but this is the first time I can recall a feminist backlash this severe.
Or did I forget something?
Quote from: Ladybird;551943That wasn't him, it was Soda Pop Miniatures. He just had a very similar idea a few years ago.
i stand corrected.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;551931It's impossible to comment objectively or, imo, factually on this. Not that it will stop me from trying.
I have never read Nymphology, The Temptress book or any of these other absurd sounding products. I've seen parts of them quoted in other discussions about this person whom I have never met and have no personal grievance with. However Nymphology appears to contain all sorts of bizarre stuff including a spell to summon a willing or unwilling sex partner.
The Quintessential Temptress actually has some usable and serious stuff in it, and it was used in Conan to add the Temptress class (open to both sexes btw) which very much fit the setting. Not everyone's cup of tea obviously, but I think it is usable and could be worthwhile looking at if you like to use sexual themes and want a ton of mechanics to support that in your 3.x games.
Nymphology on the other hand is pretty much utter garbage. It is a bad collection of poor jokes, dubious powers and even worse spells. Not only are their nine spells that allow you to summon a sex partner who (as the book goes out of its way to tell you) must obey you even if unwilling, it also has such sensitive spells as 'Power Word, Orgasm'. Oh and the monsters include the Porn Golem, Giant Crab and One Eyed Trouser Snake. I would avoid it at all costs because its utter shite, but if you think you would like that sort of thing - just please don't use it in a game I am in.
Is this the new F.A.T.A.L.? You know, the obscure document on some semi-random website nobody had heard of before a series of epic shitstorms catapulted it into online fame. It could have stayed that way if half the Internerd didn't feel like telling how much Byron Hall was a bad person.
In short, fuck this thread, and everyone who gives the attention whores their attention. :hatsoff:
And Pundit, you should be ashamed of yourself for reviving this inane bullshit when OHT had already done the best thing that could be done to this subject by putting a stake right through its fucking heart.
Quote from: jeff37923;551900I think this is interesting because what we are seeing is a small group of people terrorizing a game publisher and an author.
Here is a link to the original post that has a pretty good synopsis of this clusterfuck.
Now that James Desborough has joined in the conversation, the Mods at RPGnet have banned him for defending himself against his critics (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632877-Infraction-for-Barry-Desborough-1)-One-Day-Ban).
I said it before and I will say it again, this is one steaming pile of clusterfuck.
I can't make heads or tails of what really is going on but you are very right that is it a big clusterfuck.
Quote from: Melan;551957Is this the new F.A.T.A.L.? You know, the obscure document on some semi-random website nobody had heard of before a series of epic shitstorms catapulted it into online fame. It could have stayed that way if half the Internerd didn't feel like telling how much Byron Hall was a bad person.
In short, fuck this thread, and everyone who gives the attention whores their attention. :hatsoff:
And Pundit, you should be ashamed of yourself for reviving this inane bullshit when OHT had already done the best thing that could be done to this subject by putting a stake right through its fucking heart.
This is the only correct post in this thread.
"Kill it before it grows/he said 'kill it before it grows'."
I stand by what I posted earlier, even if it earns me a middle finger or two. I still love you guys though.
Quick summary of the opening rounds:
(1) James Desborough writes a blog post (http://talesofgrim.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/in-defence-of-rape/) saying that rape is an acceptable topic for storytelling.
(2) Maladicta / Marlyn Cooper posts a petition (http://www.change.org/petitions/mongoose-publishing-stop-publishing-james-desborough-rape-supporter) which claims that Desborough said "rape is awesome". (This is a complete lie.)
(3) Mongoose posts a hyperbolic poll (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/62882540/ismongooseabadcompany.htm).
(4) Marlyn Cooper starts receiving rape threats via e-mail.
(5) Desborough posted tweets (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&pagenumber=1954&perpage=40#post404816652) claiming that it was OK to post rape threats to Marlyn Cooper. He also claims the omniscient ability to know that none of those threats are "real".
(6) Marlyn Cooper makes a blog post in which she extensively (but selectively) quotes (http://quidsquared.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/how-not-to-handle-a-pr-crisis-mongoose-edition-2/) a conversation with Matthew Sprange.
My conclusions from this:
(1) I have not read Desborough's other writing. Maybe they are full of offensive stuff. But he's absolutely right in his blog post: Rape is a powerful and emotional event. Good stories are often built around powerful and emotional events. The history of storytelling is littered with powerful and effective stories about rape. Rape is, in fact, an acceptable topic for storytelling.
(2) Marlyn Cooper is a liar who slandered Desborough. After lying about what he said, she attempted to defend her lie by saying that "misread 'Rape is a fucking awesome plot device' as 'Rape is fucking awesome as a plot device'". Even if that is true, however, you'll note that this still means that she deliberately used selective quoting in order to completely misrepresent what he said.
When your best defense for your actions is "I'm not a liar because I was actually trying to lie in a different way", then you don't actually have a defense.
(3) The poll was clearly hyperbolic and stupid. There doesn't seem to be any indication that it was meant to be taken seriously, however.
(4) People threatening other people with rape and scumbags. But attempting to claim that Mongoose is responsible for them (despite Mongoose doing absolutely nothing to suggest or encourage such actions) appears to be just another lie that Marlyn Cooper is telling.
(5) People blindly defending people making rape threats are also scumbags.
(6) In the e-mails Cooper quoted, Sprange seems sincere in his effort to engage Cooper in a dialogue regarding her concerns with the work he's published. Given Cooper's history of deliberately misquoting people, of course, it's difficult to ascertain how badly she's distorting his e-mails to begin with. (Notably, she actually manages to quote him saying one thing and then immediately claim he said something else in the exact same post.)
So, the short summary: Desborough and Cooper both come off looking like scumbags. Sprange comes off as a guy trying to have a rational conversation with a self-admitted liar.
Quote from: Aos;551906I hate to say this, but go look at the last several pages grognards.txt for some more perspective on this. Try to set aside your kneejerk reactions to the posters in question. I had a hard time with it, but like I said they've got some good points and it's what's being said, not whose saying it that is important. And I'm pretty sure a lot of the now deleted stuff is still up over there in the form of quotes. This whole thing has got me rethinking my views on a number of issues.
Navel gazing aside, I think regardless of how it is presented a boycott is a completely reasonable response. I also think that rape threats, whatever their veracity, are completely reprehensible and can in no way be condoned or justified or anything else. The rest in regards to who said what and all that and rpg.net's reaction to the same is really just pixel bitching, imo.
Fuck me if I don't agree with JD corely, which is as close to eating shit as I'll ever come.
Quote from: LadybirdEssentially, everyone comes out of it looking like a twat, to various degrees.
Ultimately, I'm going to go with these. No one comes off clean in this situation. It's an ugly clusterfuck with valid issues on all sides, and frankly I think picking one says more about the person choosing the side than the facts of the situation.
GRIMJIM is a sexist cunt, that's been known for years. MalaDicta did play pretty fast and fucking loose with the facts. Matthew Sprange is a cynically manipulative jackass.
However, to me, the most important takeaway from the whole thing, is that if your opponent is arguing that there is sexism at play, the stupidest fucking thing I can imagine on earth is to respond with sexist fucking garbage like rape threats.
Ultimately, I also have to go with Melum's response. This is a giant fucking mess on all sides, and as Levi Kornelson said on his G+, besides the issue of the rape threats and sexist slurs themselves, the rest is just mud, lots of goddamn mud that does no one any benefit by wallowing in it.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;551978Quick summary of the opening rounds:
(1) James Desborough writes a blog post (http://talesofgrim.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/in-defence-of-rape/) saying that rape is an acceptable topic for storytelling.
(2) Maladicta / Marlyn Cooper posts a petition (http://www.change.org/petitions/mongoose-publishing-stop-publishing-james-desborough-rape-supporter) which claims that Desborough said "rape is awesome". (This is a complete lie.)
(3) Mongoose posts a hyperbolic poll (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/62882540/ismongooseabadcompany.htm).
(4) Marlyn Cooper starts receiving rape threats via e-mail.
(5) Desborough posted tweets (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&pagenumber=1954&perpage=40#post404816652) claiming that it was OK to post rape threats to Marlyn Cooper. He also claims the omniscient ability to know that none of those threats are "real".
(6) Marlyn Cooper makes a blog post in which she extensively (but selectively) quotes (http://quidsquared.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/how-not-to-handle-a-pr-crisis-mongoose-edition-2/) a conversation with Matthew Sprange.
My conclusions from this:
(1) I have not read Desborough's other writing. Maybe they are full of offensive stuff. But he's absolutely right in his blog post: Rape is a powerful and emotional event. Good stories are often built around powerful and emotional events. The history of storytelling is littered with powerful and effective stories about rape. Rape is, in fact, an acceptable topic for storytelling.
(2) Marlyn Cooper is a liar who slandered Desborough. After lying about what he said, she attempted to defend her lie by saying that "misread 'Rape is a fucking awesome plot device' as 'Rape is fucking awesome as a plot device'". Even if that is true, however, you'll note that this still means that she deliberately used selective quoting in order to completely misrepresent what he said.
When your best defense for your actions is "I'm not a liar because I was actually trying to lie in a different way", then you don't actually have a defense.
(3) The poll was clearly hyperbolic and stupid. There doesn't seem to be any indication that it was meant to be taken seriously, however.
(4) People threatening other people with rape and scumbags. But attempting to claim that Mongoose is responsible for them (despite Mongoose doing absolutely nothing to suggest or encourage such actions) appears to be just another lie that Marlyn Cooper is telling.
(5) People blindly defending people making rape threats are also scumbags.
(6) In the e-mails Cooper quoted, Sprange seems sincere in his effort to engage Cooper in a dialogue regarding her concerns with the work he's published. Given Cooper's history of deliberately misquoting people, of course, it's difficult to ascertain how badly she's distorting his e-mails to begin with. (Notably, she actually manages to quote him saying one thing and then immediately claim he said something else in the exact same post.)
So, the short summary: Desborough and Cooper both come off looking like scumbags. Sprange comes off as a guy trying to have a rational conversation with a self-admitted liar.
Thanks for the bulletpoint version. What a mess.
You're telling me that a feminist lied? I'm shocked. Utterly and completely.
Quote from: Ladybird;551943That wasn't him, it was Soda Pop Miniatures. He just had a very similar idea a few years ago.
Right, although the similarities are pretty much limited to "tentacle monsters prowling after young women". MalaDicta apparently got Desborough's older
Hentacle mixed up with Soda Pop's upcoming
Tentacle Bento. Actually, a little while before Kickstarter shut down the funding for
TB, Desborough commented on its project page:
"Well, I guess rather than suing I'll back you and say best of luck weathering the incoming internet RAGE storm. Idea-thieving bastards :P"
Who said Nobilis?
Quote from: Aos;551994Who said Nobilis?
You just did. It obviously caused me to show up retroactively.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;551978(5) Desborough posted tweets (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&pagenumber=1954&perpage=40#post404816652) claiming that it was OK to post rape threats to Marlyn Cooper. He also claims the omniscient ability to know that none of those threats are "real".
This part has me a bit confused. the link says
"James Desborough @GRIMACHU
Apparently the person who started the petition is getting surprise sex threats. Not on. However I'm sure she knows they're not genuine threats."
How does that translate to "claiming that it was OK to post rape threats to Marlyn Cooper"? It sounds more like a frank statement of the realities of the internet.
The thread was opened to ascertain whether or not this was an example of the hobby being turned into a sock puppet by special interest groups and certain sites, specifically rpgnet, being used to belabour someone about the head and face by drumming up a shitstorm of hysteria for the same purpose. On the balance, its starting to look like it is.
The initial complaint is nonsense, he was commenting on a real literary fact. He might have expressed himself better, but unfortunately it appears to have been seized upon, misrepresented and used for libel which will almost certainly cause real and substantive damages to his future career, although he didn't make things much better for himself by responding so vigorously (which has injured his options for recourse).
Mongoose has also been damaged in the process, and to my mind without reasonable cause. The tongue in cheek poll was in slightly poor taste but nothing to warrant a witch hunt.
Well, first of all, the original blog post was correct. Rape or any other form of human tragedy can certainly be a valid literary topic.
However, when this truth is told by a guy who makes part of his living writing sexually transgressive RPG books, the topic gets unwholesome, clammy, sticky and creepy. Considering the source changes the nature of the post.
Similarly, when someone feels offended by such RPG books and starts posting about it, they are certainly within their rights. However, when they start filling their discourse with easily checked lies to prove their arguments, then again considering the source results in tainting the message, even if the message was originally correct.
Once purple and SA get ahold of it, well, now you need to put on your hazmat suits to wallow through the toxic shitstorm, and need Bizarro glasses to make sense of the lies, agendas, propaganda, and misinformation.
Basically, this tempest is the textbook example of everything that is wrong with the current state of RPG Internet discourse with the original expressed ideas (both of which were true) being the first things to be pulped and splattered by the gristmill.
Quote from: Ladybird;551925Essentially, everyone comes out of it looking like a twat, to various degrees. MalaDicta is a liar. Sprange is a coward (Hiding behind "we're a small business"? Really? I'd love to see their financials, but I seriously doubt that they're bad enough one angry internet woman could put them out of business... and if you have full-time employees, in the RPG industry, you're a huge business!).
They're a small business, by the standard definition (less than 30 employees is one such definition). And yes, they are absolutely vulnerable to going out of business or being severely damaged by something like this. You can't assume they are sitting on a pile of cash, and if just one decision maker at a distributor decided to cut them loose, it could be disastrous for them. It's a very small industry.
So while I don't like some things that Desborough has written and Sprange has said, they're fighting for their economic survival.
RPGnet banning Desborough is the last straw. I won't even visit that place anymore.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;551978(5) Desborough posted tweets (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&pagenumber=1954&perpage=40#post404816652) claiming that it was OK to post rape threats to Marlyn Cooper. He also claims the omniscient ability to know that none of those threats are "real".
Where are you getting this part? Your link does not back up the claim you make about it. Like, at all. At no point does he even vaguely imply that it is OK to post rape threats to her. Am I missing something in your link, or did you mean to link to something else, or what?
Quote from: The Traveller;552004This part has me a bit confused. the link says
"James Desborough @GRIMACHU
Apparently the person who started the petition is getting surprise sex threats. Not on. However I'm sure she knows they're not genuine threats."
How does that translate to "claiming that it was OK to post rape threats to Marlyn Cooper"? It sounds more like a frank statement of the realities of the internet.
It's that last sentence. Threatening a stranger with violence is... threatening a stranger with violence. There's no such thing as a "not genuine" threat in that situation.
(Contrast to threatening a friend with violence, which is entirely different.)
The tweet isn't saying that it's okay, but it's not saying "stop this, right now, seriously". It's putting the blame on MalaDicta for being unhappy about receiving rape threats.
That it's somehow seen as acceptable to email rape threats to women who slight gamers on the internet... well, that's a problem, but it's beyond the scope of this board.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;552028RPGnet banning Desborough is the last straw. I won't even visit that place anymore.
They banned Grim years ago, so... you're quite far behind the curve. And then his company account got banned last year, because he was posting on it while still a banned poster.
The second one could have been utterly avoidable by asking the mods for permission; regardless of whether we like them or not, those are the rules there. Grim decided to just ignore the rules, and then got petulant when the expected results happened.
Misogyny = satanic the new rpg witch hunt
How "I'm sure she know they aren't genuine threats," can be seen as a "frank statement of the facts" is beyond me.
How is he sure what she knows? How does he know they aren't genuine?
WTF?
Jesus there's a lot of nonsense and rumour going on in this thread. Sorry I've been a bit distracted.
I'll be happy to answer questions etc from people who aren't lying or being manipulative tomorrow but it's after midnight.
I can give you an update to the effect that I am in private discussion with Matt Sprange at the moment. That will limit what I can say about certain aspects of what's going on.
I'm not sure the best way to organise this, but I'll try to get to your questions in the morning.
Quote from: Ladybird;552030The tweet isn't saying that it's okay, but it's not saying "stop this, right now, seriously". It's putting the blame on MalaDicta for being unhappy about receiving rape threats.
That it's somehow seen as acceptable to email rape threats to women who slight gamers on the internet... well, that's a problem, but it's beyond the scope of this board.
I think you're extrapolating far beyond the intention of the tweet. Its not an outright condemnation of threats, which it should be, but its saying the internet is full of trolls and wasters, it comes with the territory, imho. Again he has represented himself poorly and with little dignity. One of the several outstanding questions in my mind is why she has not reported these threats to the police for analysis. Or has she?
Quote from: Aos;552033How "I'm sure she know they aren't genuine threats," can be seen as a "frank statement of the facts" is beyond me.
How is sure what she knows? How does he know they aren't genuine?
WTF?
WTF indeed, my friend. See above.
I don't think the source should really be the question here. I still listen to bands whose frontman bit the head off a bat. I don't condone the biting off of bats' heads, and I'd probably stop listening to the music if the bat hedderie was the point of the operation. I think the agenda is more important.
Did he intend to further some sort of misogynistic agenda with his wholly correct and factual blog, or was he just riffing on the theme which his career is chock a bloc with? Did this woman have an agenda by outright lying about what he said and going on to drum up outrage with her commentary?
Important questions.
Needless to say, if it needs saying, I do not support or condone mysogyny or rape in any way, shape or form.
I'm sorry man, but that seems like some serious hair splitting there.
Rape threats = wrong. I don't see the purpose of deliberating over how heartfelt they are. Do they somehow become more wrong once reported to the police? does one need to report them to the police for them to be wrong?
Maybe, I'm just too simple minded.
Just quickly before I sleep...
I don't think the rape threats made against her are sincere (perhaps a better word than serious), any more than I think the ones I have received against me or my wife are sincere.
They are trolls, trolling, in order to troll. They do what they can in order to get a reaction and Ms Cooper has run up a huge flag to trolls about JUST the sort of thing that will upset her.
It is not saying that it is OK, rather that so long as we take trolls at face value in what they're saying: "GASP! HOW SEXIST!" we're ignoring the real problem which is one of antisocial behaviour, not sexism.
On the other hand the people calling me a rape apologist, or even 'rape supporter' do appear to genuinely believe the things they are saying.
People who genuinely believe crazy nonsense is more worrying to me than a dozen mouth breathers talking smack.
Quote from: The Traveller;552038I think you're extrapolating far beyond the intention of the tweet. Its not an outright condemnation of threats, which it should be, but its saying the internet is full of trolls and wasters, it comes with the territory, imho. Again he has represented himself poorly and with little dignity. One of the several outstanding questions in my mind is why she has not reported these threats to the police for analysis. Or has she?
No idea. I suspect the police response would be "not worth our time to investigate", though; from the rpg.net thread, the threats were coming from [random collection of letters and numbers] email addresses, so tracing them would be difficult and probably pointless.
I think we're in agreement about Grim doing a good job of making himself look bad, though. He could have at least tried to stop himself looking any worse... but no.
Quote from: Aos;552039Rape threats = wrong. I don't see the purpose of deliberating over how heartfelt they are. Do they somehow become more wrong once reported to the police? does one need to report them to the police for them to be wrong?
Maybe, I'm just too simple minded.
Here's the thing - I don't see where he said they were
right. All he said was not to be too bothered by them, if anything that's a conciliatory stance. And of course
all threats of physical harm should be reported to the police, immediately. If they actually transpire the police have a neon green glowing trail back to the culprits.
facepalm.jpg
He seems to sorta say that the threats were okay-er because they were not genuine. (1) How the fuck does he know they were not genuine? (2) Why would he try to find a way to make the threats feel like they were not as grave as people really think?
Quote from: The Traveller;552045Here's the thing - I don't see where he said they were right. All he said was not to be too bothered by them, if anything that's a conciliatory stance. And of course all threats of physical harm should be reported to the police, immediately. If they actually transpire the police have a neon green glowing trail back to the culprits.
Nowhere did I say that he said that rape threats were okay, but he dismisses them as not a serious issue and states that the real issue is trolling. You seem like a smart guy, chew on that for a minute and the implications thereof.
And your statement about police, while certainly true, misses the thrust of my question.
Edit: with the logic presented so far, when i say 3e isn't D&D, it's no different than when I say Imma gonna Raep u. It's all trolling.
Quote from: Ladybird;552042No idea. I suspect the police response would be "not worth our time to investigate", though
Probably best to let the police make that decision. There's no, zero, excuse for not reporting them, especially in so serious a matter. Thats assuming she hasn't.
Of course you never know, but 99.9% of internet threats are without any actual threat meant(that doesn't mean they shouldn't be reported however).
Also, any male RPGer who felt angered enough by Maladicta's statements to threaten rape against her obviously does not have a working penis or the balls to physically confront anyone for any purpose. The same with the cretins threatening to rape Jim's wife.
Threats, however, should be banning offenses in any online community and should be reported to the authorities at all times.
Quote from: Benoist;552048He seems to sorta say that the threats were okay-er because they were not genuine. (1) How the fuck does he know they were not genuine? (2) Why would he try to find a way to make the threats feel like they were not as grave as people really think?
For once, we agree on something.
There's no excuse for rape threats.
Quote from: CRKrueger;552053Of course you never know, .
Honestly, that's as far as you need to go.
Quote from: Aos;552050Nowhere did I say that he said that rape threats were okay, but he dismisses them as not a serious issue and states that the real issue is trolling.
You could take that as casually dismissing a realistic threat of physical harm (which again raises the police question) or as trying in a ham fisted way to make someone feel better about a bad incident. Lacking input from the author, we've no idea one way or the other. I choose to give the nod to "innocent until proven guilty" myself, especially given the bald lies perpetrated upon his writing.
Quote from: CRKrueger;552053Threats, however, should be banning offenses in any online community and should be reported to the authorities at all times.
Just for that Daedalus should have been banned IMO. Yes, it was pathetic and kind of like "I'm a martial arts expert and if I see you I'm going to kick your ass" thing, but that's a physical threat he made to the Pundit nonetheless. I would have banned him on the spot if the Pundit had lifted a finger to protest.
Quote from: The Traveller;552057You could take that as casually dismissing a realistic threat of physical harm (which again raises the police question) or as trying in a ham fisted way to make someone feel better about a bad incident. Lacking input from the author, we've no idea one way or the other. I choose to give the nod to "innocent until proven guilty" myself, especially given the bald lies perpetrated upon his writing.
Did you miss the part where he says the real issue is trolling?
Quote from: Aos;552060Did you miss the part where he says the real issue is trolling?
I've just read the immediate links. But there must be some weight lent to the concept that it was in fact just trolling, or at a minimum that he perceived this to be the case?
Again I deplore threats of any sort, particularly those of a sexual nature, but I'll be damned before I get sucked in a witch hunt.
A witch hunt? Now your extrapolating and using hyperbole. No one is going to get burned at the stake. Rape however remains a real world issue. I think you need to step off the hyperbole, it only clouds the issue.
Do you think boycotting the products of a company whose products you find deplorable to be wrong? That seems counter intuitive to me.
My contentions in this thread are as follows:
Boycott is a legitimate way to address one's concerns with a product and those who have produce it.
Rape threats are wrong, and transcend mere trolling.
If you want to target a useless hack (and his fucked-up fans) who turns out crap products that are offensive (that's you, Grim), then you've got to widen the net to include idiots who have pretensions that what they are creating is 'art' or somehow meaningful. Yes, i'm talking about the Forge, misery tourism and Vincent Baker.
Where were the arseholes making a rumpus about this when stuff like Poison'd and Maid (which is another kettle of fucked-up shit. Murder condoms, anyone?) turned up?
I got PMs from posters at RPGnet when Poison'd was being discussed that would curl your hair - Rape of fictional characters in an RPG is fine and dandy 'cos it's not real. Shit, Baker even posted an 'actual play' that posited that fucking someone against their will with a dildo was "beautiful."
Quote from: Aos;552063No one is going to get burned at the stake.
Let's hope Mongoose's profit margins feel the same.
Quote from: Aos;552063Do you think boycotting the products of a company whose products you find deplorable to be wrong? That seems counter intuitive to me.
Please don't shift the goalposts.
Quote from: Aos;552063My contentions in this thread are as follows:
Boycott is a legitimate way to address one's concerns with a product and those who have produce it.
Rape threats are wrong, and transcend mere trolling.
a) correct, and b) correct. Neither of which address the issues raised thus far. I have already said he's comported himself in a dickish manner, but if we were to hang him for that half the human race would swing. The degree of dickishness is not to my mind commensurate to the degree of hysteria raised by the bulging purple and related outlets.
Quote from: GRIM;552041It is not saying that it is OK, rather that so long as we take trolls at face value in what they're saying: "GASP! HOW SEXIST!" we're ignoring the real problem which is one of antisocial behaviour, not sexism.
Okay, fine. Trolling people is antisocial behaviour... and you did eventually touch on it yesterday.
Quote from: GRIMFor the desperately hard of understanding. I have not asked anyone to send her rape threats and I know trolling when I see it. People like this young lady don't – apparently – know trolling when they see it and take it seriously, then use it to back up their claims of harassment, rape culture etc. I know that's the emotional payoff for you trolls, but the don't. Please don't do it, it really doesn't help. Not that you mean it to help, nor that you'll listen to me, but some people think failing to condemn something means you support it.
But. Trolling is harassment. Threatening someone with rape, is threatening someone with rape. It's not a matter of "innocent until proven guilty"; it's a thing, that has been done.
So the claims of harassment are being backed up by... actual harassment.
And your reply isn't "Fucking stop this, stop sending maladicta rape threats, stop harassing her. I don't want you to be doing this, because your behaviour is part of why we can't discuss anything like adults on the internet.". It's "some people don't know that you aren't being serious". It's a wishy-washy verbal slap on the wrist, and given that you're a decent writer you could have came up with something far more definite. Not that anyone would listen, but at least you would have tried.
It goes without saying, but people shouldn't be sending such threats to you or your family either.
Quote from: Aos;552063Rape threats are wrong, and transcend mere trolling.
A true troll has no remorse.
Quote from: Ladybird;552067But. Trolling is harassment. Threatening someone with rape, is threatening someone with rape. It's not a matter of "innocent until proven guilty"; it's a thing, that has been done.
So the claims of harassment are being backed up by... actual harassment.
Who cares? The worst that will come of it is her feeling validated in her perpetual victimization.
Quote from: The Traveller;552066Let's hope Mongoose's profit margins feel the same.
Please don't shift the goalposts.
a) correct, and b) correct. Neither of which address the issues raised thus far. I have already said he's comported himself in a dickish manner, but if we were to hang him for that half the human race would swing. The degree of dickishness is not to my mind commensurate to the degree of hysteria raised by the bulging purple and related outlets.
Man, if you look back at my first post I have been saying exactly the same thing from the beginning of the thread, i have not moved the goalposts. I asked the question because some people feel that boycots equal censorship and I wanted to know if that's where your coming from. Because you seem to be saying that boycott equals witch hunt.
Also, if you look at my first post in this thread I clearly state that I don't give a fuck about what's going on at TPB it has nothing to with my two points at all.
As far as Mongoose goes, you lie down with dogs you get fleas. Not to mention the bulk of the attention he has garnered is because of the silly poll he posted. That's just bad PR. Speaking from personal experience I can tell you that stupidity often has a price.
Also, I'm not convinced by the if other people did something bad so its kind of sorta okay that he did something bad argument. If nothing else look what its done to politics in the US.
Quote from: B.T.;552068A true troll has no remorse.
Yeah, I know that I suck at it.
Quote from: Aos;552070I asked the question because some people feel that boycots equal censorship and I wanted to know if that's where your coming from. Because you seem to be saying that boycott equals witch hunt.
I take everything on a case by case basis. I do not feel there is ample evidence to justify the level of hate this man is receiving, although I am open to new evidence of course.
On the other hand I find it far more believable that there is an agenda being pursued here by sadly misled individuals and their cheerleaders, which represents everything wrong with the zeitgeist of the hobby today.
As far as I'm concerned MalaDicta has zero credibility on this issue.
Everything she's written is long-since debunked boilerplate from the Overprivileged Angry Middle-Class White University Women's Centre brigade. None of it, none of it should be given an ounce of consideration, including the claims of rape threats.
If you haven't had the misfortune to be part of a liberal arts university community lately, I can assure you: this kind of random public shaming is par for the course. It happens because it works: people like MalaDicta know that their targets will do just about anything rather than be seen as the mudslingers and extortionists want to paint them.
The only thing that works for people caught in this kind of foolishness is aggressive defense: do not back down, acknowledge the truths, and expose the lies being told about them. Publicize the witch-hunter's slanderous statements and attempts to extort. Stand up for their right to do business how and with whom they choose, and on what terms.
People who aren't Matt Sprange or James DesBrough sending threats to MalaDicta is a sideshow. It's a distraction. It's got nothing to do with either Matt or James and they have no responsibility whatsoever to disavow them - assuming said threats even occurred.
First time poster here (registered a while ago but hadn't posted anything as I was just reading and lurking).
Yes, I come from TBP (No they didn't ban me yet).
One thing before I get to my ontopic comments. It's a seriously refreshing change of pace not being scared shitless to post in a controversial thread and actually speak your mind. So thanks for that.
On Topic:
Grim, Is there some existential reason you just haven't said "Stop threatening her you idiots!" or even "I don't support this kind of harrassment."?
By skirting the issue and just dismissing them as "trolls" you simply fan the flames.
Of course their fucking trolls. Anyone on the internet for 10 minutes knows that. We all know you saying "stop it" won't stop them but it shows a little tact. Something that's been missing from this whole giant clusterfuck.
I actually feel sorry for Matt at Mongoose. The guy seems to mean well but has terminal foot-in-mouth disease. He desperately needs to take a class or two on PR and how to handle shit like this.
First mistake, engaging with Maladicta at all.
I hope Mongoose makes it through this (I'm sure they will).
Take this as a warning Publishers. Buy a time machine and make sure none of your freelancers or staff writers are going to say something fucking idiotic in the future.
You've been warned.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552075The only thing that works for people caught in this kind of foolishness is aggressive defense: do not back down, acknowledge the truths, and expose the lies being told about them. Publicize the witch-hunter's slanderous statements and attempts to extort. Stand up for their right to do business how and with whom they choose, and on what terms.
Indeed, a solid round of litigaton would be just the thing to cause a mass pulling in of horns. Assuming Mongoose is willing and able to deal with the PR.
I feel kinda an idiot saying this in this thread, but welcome Sinister Brain!
Quote from: One Horse Town;552082I feel kinda an idiot saying this in this thread, but welcome Sinister Brain!
Thank you kindly OHT.
Good thread for a first time post eh?
none of the books that are mentioned have been for sale on mongooses sight for quite some time.
Yes, welcome.
I see no further point for my participation in this thread, now that liberal arts students and trolls have been identified as the true problems, I can rest easy, secure in the knowledge that the world is now a safe place.
to sum up:
I support everyone's right to free speech.
I support everyone's right to not buy a product if they find it offensive and to organize with others who feel the same way. This is also a form a freedom of expression.
I don't care what the context is, rape threats are wrong. A failure to identify them as such and attempting to blow them off as mere trolling or nonexistent is, imo, a severe moral lapse.
and
Spoiler
3e is not D&D.
Quote from: Aos;552087and to organize with others who feel the same way. This is also a form a freedom of expression.
So were the Nuremberg rallies. Godwinned, and done.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552083Thank you kindly OHT.
Good thread for a first time post eh?
Timing is everything. ;)
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552083Thank you kindly OHT.
Good thread for a first time post eh?
Welcome dude. :)
Quote from: Benoist;551918The SA goons started the clusterfuck by commenting on Desborough's blog, mind you. RPGnet being what it is, with its rules and moderation style, it became the stage for the trap/showdown.
Being the RobMuadib in question, and being party to it's antecedents and as part of an ongoing shitstorm re: 'Rape culture' and games, specifically the Lara Croft thing, with several Video game blogs, then new Hitman Trailer with the killer nuns. This went on in the G+/Blogosphere,includining a lot of bitching and hating on Google plus, and various blogs. Drew in Skarka/Tracey Hurley, and Desborough stirred some shit as well, commenting on the tentacle bento thing (Which was before Lara Croft/Hitman).
So we had this big swell of Gamers are Rape Culture cretins (Some of which is valid and reasonable), then Maladicta saw easy pickings in Desborough, then started up the whole petition, culminating with the trap mega-thread on Tangency.net and mass bannings and smug zomg these people are creepy rapist raper aplogia. (As I said, the message is valid, but the people instigating this were more interested in scoring points for their side and basking in self-satisfaction, than effecting meaningful change.) And the picking out Mongoose hoping they would cave/look bad. blah blah blah.
I am sure Maladicta did get rape threats and hate mail BS. I am also sure she both expected and counted on it. That she wouldn't feel validated if she didn't.
I hate it when assholes champion important issues, cause it makes me want to kill the messenger, even if the message is right.
Quote from: B.T.;552068A true troll has no remorse.
Who cares? The worst that will come of it is her feeling validated in her perpetual victimization.
Jesus fucking Christ on a pogostick. Do you ever even LOOK at what you're typing?
Misogynistic ass.
Quote from: nightwind1;552096Jesus fucking Christ on a pogostick. Do you ever even LOOK at what you're typing?
Misogynistic ass.
You slander me.
I'm a
sexist ass, not a misogynistic ass.
Quote from: RobMuadib;552094So we had this big swell of Gamers are Rape Culture cretins (Some of which is valid and reasonable), then Maladicta saw easy pickings in Desborough, then started up the whole petition, culminating with the trap mega-thread on Tangency.net and mass bannings and smug zomg these people are creepy rapist raper aplogia. (As I said, the message is valid, but the people instigating this were more interested in scoring points for their side and basking in self-satisfaction, than effecting meaningful change.) And the picking out Mongoose hoping they would cave/look bad. blah blah blah.
I am sure Maladicta did get rape threats and hate mail BS. I am also sure she both expected and counted on it. That she wouldn't feel validated if she didn't.
Pretty much my sentiments after watching all this unfold.
When I saw the retread thread started in TRO on TBP I knew it would be
crossing the streams bad. Doesn't take a genius to see that a thread like that's going to turn to shit at lightspeed. I'll spare my comments on TBP's moderating though.
The petition, the righteous attitudes made me think shenanigans were happening but it wasn't until i read the "transcript" of maladicta's conversation with Matt that I realized what was happening...
(http://i.imgur.com/wW0nh.gif)
Quote from: Aos;552087Yes, welcome.
I see no further point for my participation in this thread, now that liberal arts students and trolls have been identified as the true problems, I can rest easy, secure in the knowledge that the world is now a safe place.
to sum up:
I support everyone's right to free speech.
I support everyone's right to not buy a product if they find it offensive and to organize with others who feel the same way. This is also a form a freedom of expression.
I don't care what the context is, rape threats are wrong. A failure to identify them as such and attempting to blow them off as mere trolling or nonexistent is, imo, a severe moral lapse.
and
Spoiler
3e is not D&D.
AOS, I agree with everything you stated. However, the back patting and rush of self-congratulation shown by the instigators also shows they were counting on it. I don't believe Maladicta is at all stupid in this. I'm sure she both expected and counted on this fact. It is wrong, which gives her instant credibility to advance her other aims.
The blogo-gaming-sphere has been chock full of this stuff, back to Jade Ramond on Assassin's creed, anti-booth babe sentiment, the new tomb raider shiz, the hitman trailer. So why do I object to her meaningful and correct message. Same reason I object to the culture of Tangency.net. They use it as their team to root for to validate and feel good about themselves. She saw Desborough as an easy target, and bet on Mongoose/SJG/WOTC being a fool target.
So, in this case, I hate the messaenger, but agree with the overall message. But I also see it as a ploy for her to validate herself and her clique and gain rep and the adulation of her team. I followed Ettin (He is the one that started the thread on RPG.net, while crossposting the highlights to grognard.txt) exulting in their 'trolling for good'. The mod's at RPG.net make it the perfect, least neutral ground, possible for them to run their circus, and it would have the most people cheering for them. (especially since they largely banned every dissenting opinion s the thread went on.)
So in summary, I reject the messenger.
Quote from: nightwind1;552096Jesus fucking Christ on a pogostick.
He has a pogostick? That's... kind of awesome.
Quote from: RobMuadib;552104AOS, I agree with everything you stated. However, the back patting and rush of self-congratulation shown by the instigators also shows they were counting on it. I don't believe Maladicta is at all stupid in this. I'm sure she both expected and counted on this fact. It is wrong, which gives her instant credibility to advance her other aims.
The blogo-gaming-sphere has been chock full of this stuff, back to Jade Ramond on Assassin's creed, anti-booth babe sentiment, the new tomb raider shiz, the hitman trailer. So why do I object to her meaningful and correct message. Same reason I object to the culture of Tangency.net. They use it as their team to root for to validate and feel good about themselves. She saw Desborough as an easy target, and bet on Mongoose/SJG/WOTC being a fool target.
So, in this case, I hate the messaenger, but agree with the overall message. But I also see it as a ploy for her to validate herself and her clique and gain rep and the adulation of her team. I followed Ettin (He is the one that started the thread on RPG.net, while crossposting the highlights to grognard.txt) exulting in their 'trolling for good'. The mod's at RPG.net make it the perfect, least neutral ground, possible for them to run their circus, and it would have the most people cheering for them. (especially since they largely banned every dissenting opinion s the thread went on.)
So in summary, I reject the messenger.
I'd comment but I'm a Nazi now, apparently.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552083Thank you kindly OHT.
Good thread for a first time post eh?
Just perfect.:D
Love your screen name welcome sir!
Quote from: daniel_ream;552075...boilerplate from the Overprivileged Angry Middle-Class White University Women's Centre brigade...
If you haven't had the misfortune to be part of a liberal arts university community lately, I can assure you: this kind of random public shaming is par for the course. It happens because it works: people like MalaDicta know that their targets will do just about anything rather than be seen as the mudslingers and extortionists want to paint them.
Absolutely, some of the most irrational people I encountered in my college years were middle class white overeducated females who only had a single mode of thought - resentment - and infected every discussion with their foolish cant. Why pseudo-intellectual courses are taught in first rank unis is beyond me.
If you are male get yourself a science/maths education.
Quote from: Aos;552106I'd comment but I'm a Nazi now, apparently.
Heh, This isn't rpg.net, you won't be banned for telling traveller to go eat a bag of dicks. He may call you a fuckwad or whatever, but you won't get banned.
To reiterate more, I see it as opportunistic bs on the part of maladicta following a media groundswell. If you want to see some all-day everday activitism and though on tabletop RPG culture from a female's perspective, read http://gamingaswomen.com/ . The writer's there talk about this stuff everday, not just when they think they can score some points.
Quote from: RobMuadib;552119Heh, This isn't rpg.net, you won't be banned for telling traveller to go eat a bag of dicks. He may call you a fuckwad or whatever, but you won't get banned.
To reiterate more, I see it as opportunistic bs on the part of maladicta following a media groundswell. If you want to see some all-day everday activitism and though on tabletop RPG culture from a female's perspective, read http://gamingaswomen.com/ . The writer's there talk about this stuff everday, not just when they think they can score some points.
Oh, I think Traveller is decent enough fellow; he just got carried away. I am honestly too squeamish to click your link. I respect your rejection of the messenger. However, in this case I'm more concerned with the message, but that may be due to the fact that I'm forcing myself to think about it for the first time. I think I am just riled by the fact that alleged rape threats were brushed away as the mere product of mischievous trolls.
As always, of course, I reserve the right to be wrong about fucking everything.
As far as getting banned from here goes, I can't seem to swing it.
After reading some of this and looking between the lines I believe both Aos and Traveller have the right of the whole mess. That woman has an agenda that much is obvious but threatening rape real or implied is flat out sick.
Quote from: Aos;552122I think I am just riled by the fact that alleged rape threats were brushed away as the mere product of mischievous trolls.
The thing is, they almost certainly are nothing more than that. I -and MalaDicta - live in a jurisdiction where "uttering threats" is an indictable offense[1], but part of that requires that the threats be immediate and credible.
As a counter-example, if a teenager posts on his Facebook page
"Moms betta get me an iPhone for XMas or imma cut a bitch"[2] absolutely no one is going to promptly report the kid to the police for threatening assault with a deadly weapon.
It's crass. It's offensive. It's beyond the pale of any kind of civilized discourse. But it's not a credible threat of violence, and neither is a bunch of random Internet dorks clearly trying to rile up MalaDicta. There just isn't any good reason to believe that any of those threats represent any more danger than, say, Deadalus threatening to ruin Pundit's shit.
And as I've already said: I've only seen the initial couple of posts - enough to spot the telltale markers of organized ARA extortion - but what evidence do we have that MalaDicta has in fact received any threats at all? Are we relying only on her word? We already know she's willing to lie and distort the truth to further her agenda.
[1] Sort of but not quite the equivalent of a felony in most US states.
[2] Yes, this happens. You may weep openly.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552075As far as I'm concerned MalaDicta has zero credibility on this issue.
Everything she's written is long-since debunked boilerplate from the Overprivileged Angry Middle-Class White University Women's Centre brigade. None of it, none of it should be given an ounce of consideration, including the claims of rape threats.
If you haven't had the misfortune to be part of a liberal arts university community lately, I can assure you: this kind of random public shaming is par for the course. It happens because it works: people like MalaDicta know that their targets will do just about anything rather than be seen as the mudslingers and extortionists want to paint them.
The only thing that works for people caught in this kind of foolishness is aggressive defense: do not back down, acknowledge the truths, and expose the lies being told about them. Publicize the witch-hunter's slanderous statements and attempts to extort. Stand up for their right to do business how and with whom they choose, and on what terms.
People who aren't Matt Sprange or James DesBrough sending threats to MalaDicta is a sideshow. It's a distraction. It's got nothing to do with either Matt or James and they have no responsibility whatsoever to disavow them - assuming said threats even occurred.
This is the main thing I am getting from this clusterfuck as well. MalaDicta (WTF is her real name since this is public?) is acting like Pat Pulling here in order to destroy an author and damage game publishers.
James Desborough wrote some tasteless stuff (
Nymphology is a tackier
Book of Erotic Fantasy), but if you do not like the guy's writing then vote with your wallet and do not buy his written works. To go out of your way to lie and publicly slander and libel a man, then start a harrassment petition to prevent him from making a living as a writer is begging for a lawsuit.
Rape and rape threats are bad, but they are indeed a product of internet trolling culture. However, a simple "Knock off the rape threats" from Desborough would go a long way to bettering the situation, especially if this mess ends up in court.
Is Maladicta allowed her Free Speech to say what she pleases? Yes, and she can face the consequences for it as well. This has gone beyond Free Speech and entered harrassment territory, which is where Maladicta went wrong.
I can't imagine that I have anything else to say on the topic except that I don't have anything else to say on the topic.
I think it would be cool, though, if someone else called me a Nazi.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552143The thing is, they almost certainly are nothing more than that. I -and MalaDicta - live in a jurisdiction where "uttering threats" is an indictable offense[1], but part of that requires that the threats be immediate and credible.
Daniel, I live just about a two hour drive away from you, and I have to disagree - if only for the fact that regardless of this woman's credibility, receiving what can even be even misconstrued as rape threats in your inbox is extremely upsetting and unacceptable. To say it's harmless is a dangerous and harmful perspective.
We can't know the depth of any legal claim without transcripts, and that's none of our business.
Quote from: jeff37923;552145Rape and rape threats are bad, but they are indeed a product of internet trolling culture.
And this perspective is even worse. Saying "trolls will be trolls" is tantamount to endorsing mild rape threats across the internet.
I don't think this is the kind of culture any of us wants to foster. Victim blaming is the last thing roleplaying game communities should be associated with. I can't help but agree with numerous posts that everyone acted in poor form, but there is a certain point where a line must be drawn in a sand.
No rape threat is harmless. It doesn't matter if it isn't acted upon, or if the threat is not credible. It was meant to frighten and hurt and it sounds like it did just that. That's harm.
Quote from: Aos;552149I can't imagine that I have anything else to say on the topic except that I don't have anything else to say on the topic.
I think it would be cool, though, if someone else called me a Nazi.
Just to make you feel better - Aos, you're a nazi.
Really I just threw that last one in to lighten the mood. (As much as nazi's lighten the mood). Even so, roleplaying gamers on the Internet are snarky, sarcastic, bitter, dissatisfied and whiny people on the whole - and there are some bad qualities, too. Let's not add cavalier about rape to the list.
//Panjumanju
What does "not on" mean? It was used in one of Grim's tweets, in a way with which I'm not familiar.
Quote from: Panjumanju;552155And this perspective is even worse. Saying "trolls will be trolls" is tantamount to endorsing mild rape threats across the internet.
I don't think this is the kind of culture any of us wants to foster. Victim blaming is the last thing roleplaying game communities should be associated with. I can't help but agree with numerous posts that everyone acted in poor form, but there is a certain point where a line must be drawn in a sand.
No rape threat is harmless. It doesn't matter if it isn't acted upon, or if the threat is not credible. It was meant to frighten and hurt and it sounds like it did just that. That's harm.
Maybe it is worse, but we have yet to see if these rape threats are real or something else that Maladicta lied about. I do not see her as a victim in this entire mess. I see her as more of an instigator of it.
And no, I do not condone the rape threats, thanks for asking.
Quote from: jeff37923;552166And no, I do not condone the rape threats, thanks for asking.
Next Week: RPG.net bans 50 posters and The RPGSite bitches for over 10 pages when someone points out "genocide is bad".
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;552170Next Week: RPG.net bans 50 posters and The RPGSite bitches for over 10 pages when someone points out "genocide is bad".
JG
That is debateable. Are we talking Kender or Gungans here?
Quote from: jeff37923;552172That is debateable. Are we talking Kender or Gungans here?
Kenguans.
MEESA HAFTA PICKPOCKET.
The only time you'd find me praying for a mind-flayer invasion.
Quote from: Ladybird;552030It's that last sentence. Threatening a stranger with violence is... threatening a stranger with violence. There's no such thing as a "not genuine" threat in that situation.
(Contrast to threatening a friend with violence, which is entirely different.)
The tweet isn't saying that it's okay, but it's not saying "stop this, right now, seriously". It's putting the blame on MalaDicta for being unhappy about receiving rape threats.
That it's somehow seen as acceptable to email rape threats to women who slight gamers on the internet... well, that's a problem, but it's beyond the scope of this board.
This.
Saying things like "they're not genuine threats" or "they're just trolling" is an attempt to excuse behavior which is completely inexcusable. (Particularly since they're statements that Desborough is just making up out of whole-cloth. Unless, of course, Desborough is actually responsible for those threats being e-mailed. So either he's posting offensive bullshit or he's confessing to being a scumbag. I'm assuming the former, but neither option paints him in a great light.)
Furthermore, implying that there is somebody for whom receiving anonymous rape threats ISN'T a button is mindless idiocy of the worst sort. And phrasing it in such a way as to claim that she was somehow "asking for it" because she "handily flagged her buttons" is the point where he
really crosses over into being a complete scumbag.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552065Where were the arseholes making a rumpus about this when stuff like Poison'd and Maid (which is another kettle of fucked-up shit. Murder condoms, anyone?) turned up?
I seem to recall RPGNet having plenty of threads filled with plenty of people denouncing both of those games for exactly those reasons.
Quote from: The Traveller;552073I take everything on a case by case basis. I do not feel there is ample evidence to justify the level of hate this man is receiving, although I am open to new evidence of course.
Sure. The same is also true for Maladicta.
Both of them are idiots. Both of them have said stupid things. Maladicta crossed over into being a scumbag when she lied (repeatedly) in her efforts to paint people as supporters of actual rape. Desborough crossed over into scumbaggery when he claimed that she was "asking for it" by telling people that threatening her with rape was a "button".
Both of them have muddied themselves up well and good. But both of them are also getting targeted with a lot more hate than the stupidity of their actions could even remotely begin to justify.
Now now, let's not also forget Matthew Sprange's shameless attempt at emotional pandering and suggested bribery.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;552158What does "not on" mean? It was used in one of Grim's tweets, in a way with which I'm not familiar.
It's a fairly benign/polite way of saying that behaviour is unacceptable.
QuoteGrim, Is there some existential reason you just haven't said "Stop threatening her you idiots!" or even "I don't support this kind of harrassment."? By skirting the issue and just dismissing them as "trolls" you simply fan the flames. Of course their fucking trolls. Anyone on the internet for 10 minutes knows that. We all know you saying "stop it" won't stop them but it shows a little tact. Something that's been missing from this whole giant clusterfuck.
I think I've covered that in my previous answers. I think trolling is a problem and yes, there are genuinely mentally ill people on the internet but I consider the problem to be trolling itself whereas my opponents fixate on the superficial content of the trolling comments. It's a separate issue from the fuss to me, but one I feel quite strongly about.
I don't recall the Pope having said that he's against the brutal buggering of Marmosets but to any sane person it's pretty obvious that he isn't condoning it, even if he hasn't spoken out about it.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;552158What does "not on" mean? It was used in one of Grim's tweets, in a way with which I'm not familiar.
It means it's not something you should do. It's wrong in some way.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;552192This.
Saying things like "they're not genuine threats" or "they're just trolling" is an attempt to excuse behavior which is completely inexcusable. (Particularly since they're statements that Desborough is just making up out of whole-cloth. Unless, of course, Desborough is actually responsible for those threats being e-mailed. So either he's posting offensive bullshit or he's confessing to being a scumbag. I'm assuming the former, but neither option paints him in a great light.)
Excuse it?
No.
Accurately describe it?
Yes.
Same thing with the hot-button issue. Trolls will go after you if you're feminist, fat, gay, whatever it is that will get you to react. By continually fixating on the content of the trolling, rather than the trolling itself it is my opinion that people like Ms Cooper, and yourself here, are contributing to the problem and the goal of said trolls.
Given how rape has been trivialised in society, and this is evidenced by hearing any young kid talk on XBL where rape is a simple term used as a synonym for giving your opponent a sound thrashing, surely any opportunity to condone idiots tweeting threats should be taken.
Personally as a gamer I'm fed up with the use of the term rape in this way that is now perceived as almost benign.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552234Given how rape has been trivialised in society, and this is evidenced by hearing any young kid talk on XBL where rape is a simple term used as a synonym for giving your opponent a sound thrashing, surely any opportunity to condone idiots tweeting threats should be taken.
Personally as a gamer I'm fed up with the use of the term rape in this way that is now perceived as almost benign.
Then the meaning has shifted, at least within these groups. I think you mean condemn.
I differentiate between its use in such a way and the actual act in a similar way to I would to the phrase 'Run like a motherfucker'.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552065Maid (which is another kettle of fucked-up shit. Murder condoms, anyone?)
You know, while
Maid includes a fair few details which many folks commenting on the game have obviously found uncomfortable, I still don't understand that objection to the Murder Condom as some sort of a particularly heinous example. It's... a joke pet that PCs with a grudge can send out to bite a guy in his private bits (off-screen, of course) so that he then won't try to seduce anyone for the rest of the scenario. As the pop culture references in the book go, the German horror comedy that inspired the critter is admittedly on the more obscure side, though.
Quote from: GRIM;552235Then the meaning has shifted, at least within these groups. I think you mean condemn.
I differentiate between its use in such a way and the actual act in a similar way to I would to the phrase 'Run like a motherfucker'.
The meaning hasn't shifted and it's use is exactly the actual act.
Your faux naivete is so bullshit. You can't be this stupid. You write these books and then pretend outrage when someone complains about them.
Quote from: Aos;552149I can't imagine that I have anything else to say on the topic except that I don't have anything else to say on the topic.
I think it would be cool, though, if someone else called me a Nazi.
Aos, I believe you were a member of the national socialist german workers party, between the years of 1920 and 1945.
Happy? :)
Quote from: Justin Alexander;552192Both of them are idiots. Both of them have said stupid things. Maladicta crossed over into being a scumbag when she lied (repeatedly) in her efforts to paint people as supporters of actual rape. Desborough crossed over into scumbaggery when he claimed that she was "asking for it" by telling people that threatening her with rape was a "button".
The great part is her email conversation with Sprange. It's worth reading. If anyone is going to tweak the conversation so she looks reasonable and Sprange looks like an ass, it's her... but Sprange still comes out of that conversation looking like the reasonable one.
Quote from: Aos;552122Oh, I think Traveller is decent enough fellow; he just got carried away.
Argargarg I wasn't calling you a nazi, it was a roundabout reference to feminazis and them using the perfectly legitimate means you mentioned to do damage. See this is what I get for posting after a quarter bottle of the good Cap'ns finest while catching up on my Falling Skies.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552143but what evidence do we have that MalaDicta has in fact received any threats at all? Are we relying only on her word? We already know she's willing to lie and distort the truth to further her agenda.
This is becoming increasingly important. Has she published these emails, headers and all? In possibly the first ever case of her gang of merry castrati putting their energy to good use, I'm sure at least some of the threateners can be tracked down, even if the police aren't interested. And we have no idea whether or not the police would be interested even if they were contacted.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;552192Both of them are idiots. Both of them have said stupid things. Maladicta crossed over into being a scumbag when she lied (repeatedly) in her efforts to paint people as supporters of actual rape. Desborough crossed over into scumbaggery when he claimed that she was "asking for it" by telling people that threatening her with rape was a "button".
I really have a hard time reading that into what he said. This is a more accurate representation of the reaction to that tweet:
"If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged."
Cardinal RichelieuThis is plain and simple a case of an nutty extremist lying and misrepresenting someone's work in order to drum up internet hysteria and a long list of bandwagon jumpers rowing in behind her. He didn't respond well to it, and who would, but he clearly didn't recognise what he was dealing with.
Real financial damage has been done here with malice aforethought. Both himself and Mongoose have legal recourse in my opinion. I wouldn't if I was him, no judge is going to look too kindly upon "surprise sex" comments, even though he would probably still win it, but Mongoose, yeah.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552242The meaning hasn't shifted and it's use is exactly the actual act.
Your faux naivete is so bullshit. You can't be this stupid. You write these books and then pretend outrage when someone complains about them.
When someone says 'I raped that guy in Call of Duty' they don't mean they forcibly inserted their penis into them. Watch the Southpark episode about 'Fags', it's practically a public information film on this sort of thing.
I don't pretend outrage, I am outraged that people are that obtuse AND vindictive in combination.
I think the somewhat tongue in cheek tone of both himself and Mongoose through much of this discourse was simply because they didn't realise just what has been brewing over at the bloated purple and now apparently SA. No rational human being could take his comments on rape in literature as an endorsement of rape - this is very very simple. So they felt safe enough that it was a storm in a teacup.
The snarling mass of keyboard warriors that have arisen over this misrepresentation from what previously were good places to talk about games have highlighted just how sequestrated and hollowed the hobby has become in certain corners. Really big corners.
And once that internet mob button has been hit, theres no going back and no way to win. I've seen it myself, a young man accused of a trivial offence here locally, and hundreds of otherwise rational sorts dogplied him, publishing his photo, home address, facebook, place of study, googlebombed his name so future employers would be readily able to identify him, and more.
Then of course it transpired that he had been wrongly identified, was not even in the country at the time of the offence.
What struck me was how little apology there was from the mob afterwards. Some even continued to try to seek out incriminating evidence about anything to get him. Once people become invested in an idea, have hung their hat and whatever the fuck they imagine their online reputations to be worth on this idea, they just do not back down.
Hell, even if Mongoose does seek damages and wins, and they would, the same crowd will be howling miscarriage of justice and feel personally slighted by it, redoubling their efforts to damage the company in the name of their own egos.
I will supply details of that incident to anyone that wants them via pm by the way, not wishing to add to the poor bastard's woes.
Quote from: GRIM;552247When someone says 'I raped that guy in Call of Duty' they don't mean they forcibly inserted their penis into them. Watch the Southpark episode about 'Fags', it's practically a public information film on this sort of thing.
I don't pretend outrage, I am outraged that people are that obtuse AND vindictive in combination.
The use of the term rape in that context trivialises it's meaning. That it's now a casual phrase used by silly kids in video games proves this. I don't like hearing that kind of talk, it's ugly and it's ignorant. It's also not the same thing as the phrase motherfucker.
Ok, deep breath.
I've not read the ENTIRETY of all these disparate internet explosions, nor have i ever interacted with this maladicta person in anyway or form.
Is it just not possible that she genuinely misread the article?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552251Is it just not possible that she genuinely misread the article?
I don't believe it to be likely, given the ongoing campaign. And even if she had, someone should have corrected her almost immediately. You'd have to be deliberately looking for trouble to pursue this beyond a cursory glance; that so many are doing so is indicative of the problems within the hobby community mentioned earlier.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552251Is it just not possible that she genuinely misread the article?
People like that live only to pull the victim lever and receive the sweet, sweet nectar of attention. She's ugly and mousy, with a low-paying job, so creating a shitstorm like this is the best thing that's ever happened to her.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552251Ok, deep breath.
I've not read the ENTIRETY of all these disparate internet explosions, nor have i ever interacted with this maladicta person in anyway or form.
Is it just not possible that she genuinely misread the article?
I don't think she would have read any post with the word "rape" in it with an open mind.
That doesn't mean it's okay for anyone to send her rape threats, of course. Or for someone to claim that it's just trolls on the internet, hahaha, those wacky young scamps.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;552253People like that live only to pull the victim lever and receive the sweet, sweet nectar of attention. She's ugly and mousy, with a low-paying job, so creating a shitstorm like this is the best thing that's ever happened to her.
Exactly why is the bold section relevant? It's exactly this sort of behaviour that "gamers" get accused of.
Quote from: Ladybird;552255That doesn't mean it's okay for anyone to send her rape threats, of course.
While normally I'd be the first to take someone's word for it on such a serious matter, in this case she has been caught out in misrepresentation and outright lies. I don't think we can take for granted that any rape threats were sent until evidence of same is presented. And its a very simple matter to do so.
Hell, I'll delightedly join in tracking down people sending rape threats at that point.
Let me see if I get this straight:
Maladicta targets GRIM for publishing shit that offends her, and libels him in the process. GRIM, wether your like him or not, is a victim.
Some random assholes on the internet (imagine that! Random Assholes... on the INTERNET!!!)... possibly... threaten to rape Maladicta over said internet.
GRIM magically becomes the victimizer and Maladicta becomes the Victim.
Now, we can say that GRIM shouldn't have even commented on the phenomenon (cue youtube video of lawyers teaching people to never say a fucking thing, ever and under any circumstances to cops because it can and will be used against you), but we can't honestly say that he is, in any way, responsible for random internet assholes posting shit on the internet of their own volition. He owes Maladicta nothing, no apology, no defense.
Remember: She attacked him. She libeled him.
Wether or not the rape threats are real, any attempt to hold GRIM accountable for them is, essentially, trying to defend herself retroactively by making him the bad-guy in this case. Even if GRIM had personally responded by making his own Rape-threats, guess what: She libeled him. His (currently imaginary) wrong doesn't actually undo the wrong she did. Its just a second (imaginary) wrong. Period. This is fucking pre-school level shit, people.
Now, I'm gonna make myself a bigger target here (also: Red-horned dude Aos, you are a poor substitute for Kanada-Aos. What have you done with Kanada-Aos?).
All this hand wringing over internet troll rape threats?
Grow the fuck up.
Yes, rape is bad. Rape threats are bad. So are insults and mocking and bullying and cancer and a bunch of other things.
I, for one, am not about to post some fucking boilerplate comment condeming all the 'bad stuff' in the world at the bottom of each post in order that no one claims I somehow magically support it.
Likewise: 99.99999% of all threats leveled against people on the internet are less substantial than the flying-spagetti monster. Which is why the Cops don't actually respond to even relatively credible sounding internet threats. And, on the off chance Maladicta happens to attract the attention of some random internet asshole who will, in fact, drive several hundred miles to rape her? Guess what: GRIM still has nothing to do with it. In fact, I think at that point its credible to say Maladicta and her little internet crusade has nothing to do with it. A profoundly fucked up person does a profoundly fucked up thing for profoundly no-reason at all. News at eleven.
I, for one, refuse to allow the attacker to suddenly claim victim status without putting in my two cents.
And seeing that even Aos has somehow become the concern-troll here, I can see that the RPGsite is further degenerating, which only reinforces my lack of desire to be here.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;552253People like that live only to pull the victim lever and receive the sweet, sweet nectar of attention. She's ugly and mousy, with a low-paying job, so creating a shitstorm like this is the best thing that's ever happened to her.
It's stuff like this that makes telling people that this place isn't as bad as it's painted a waste of breath.
It's very fucking easy, if you disagree with her and what's she's doing, not to descend into rhetoric that
validates what she's doing - if you want to be taken seriously, at any rate.
Quote from: Ladybird;552255Exactly why is the bold section relevant? It's exactly this sort of behaviour that "gamers" get accused of.
The ugly and mousy thing? I guess she can't help that. But it's just my read of people who engage in this kind of attention-seeking behavior. She should stick to her knitting circles.
Desborough and Sprange aren't blameless either, but at least they're out creating stuff and doing things.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552249The use of the term rape in that context trivialises it's meaning. That it's now a casual phrase used by silly kids in video games proves this. I don't like hearing that kind of talk, it's ugly and it's ignorant. It's also not the same thing as the phrase motherfucker.
Fine you don't like it. Neither do I. Part of the reason I don't play many games online because it's tedious having to deal with the little scrotes. I differentiate between the act and the word though. Them using the word this way doesn't, IMO, have any real impact on the severity or condemnation of the act.
Same thing, to me, but I can see we're unlikely to agree. I'm OK with that.
Quote from: Ladybird;552255I don't think she would have read any post with the word "rape" in it with an open mind.
I'm sure that's true, but that doesn't, to my mind, preclude making an unintentional mistake.
Does it?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552263I'm sure that's true, but that doesn't, to my mind, preclude making an unintentional mistake.
Does it?
Given the degree and extent of all this I'm not feeling charitable enough to think it's a mistake. If you read her correspondence with Matthew it seems like she really can't tell the difference between something as a plot element and something as a deed.
Or it may simply be she's unwilling to back down at this point.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;552260The ugly and mousy thing? I guess she can't help that. But it's just my read of people who engage in this kind of attention-seeking behavior. She should stick to her knitting circles.
Ah, of course. It's her fault that you had to bring her appearance into this.
There are plenty of words we can go over here, things that she has actually said and done. We don't need to drag ourselves down into petty personal insults.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552263I'm sure that's true, but that doesn't, to my mind, preclude making an unintentional mistake.
Does it?
It doesn't, no. But if she wanted to clarify any of the points, the comments section was
right there; if she wanted clarification, she could have asked for it. Grim certainly didn't do himself any favours; "in defence of rape
as a story element" was right there as a title, but he didn't go for it - and he's too experienced a writer, and it's too well thought-out a blog post, for that to be a casual mistake.
It looks like a few posters in this thread have the idea that this mess started on the Purple and then got SA and others involved.
That is incorrect.
This started at SA's grognards.txt by Newfork (Goon) on Jun 13th. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&userid=184238&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post404603848
They have been watching GRIM's blog and work (among others) for awhile and pounced when they saw a chance to cause some drama.
It was brought over to the Tang of Purple by Ettin (Ettin at Purple and SA- Goon). (no link due Purple log in needed).
That was where the Maladicta stuff started. Dogpile on Mongoose ensues. Mongoose Matt tries (and fumbles) a response while figuring out whats going on. No one notices GRIM wrote a couple of things for Cubicle 7 (among others), so C7 walks away clean.
It is then taken to Twitter by Tablehop (Tablehop at Purple; Mikan at SA - Goon). (https://twitter.com/tablehop/status/215316382210981888)
Twitter leads over to Google Plus where Gareth-Michael Skarka (aka GMS) and Sarah Darkmagic had words. Her husband (aka Sir Whiteknight) couldn't stand the idea of any one disagreeing with her and uses a bullet metaphor in this thread https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/Q8vr7YkXEnm about GMS and has another message in the thread with "buy you a round" at Gencon. GMS kinda worried he might be assaulted at Gencon. Mr Darkmagic calls GMS a coward on twitter (https://twitter.com/FTHurley/status/215611863214469121) for not wanting a "discussion" with him at Gencon. He continues on with this message. https://plus.google.com/111899461513439407504/posts/aaZ1vF6FAsU. GMS reiterates his position https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/268UqfidNir on Friday and it is seen as a victory by the Darkmagics. Still no apology from Sir Whiteknight on his "threats".
And back to Purple where Ettin (Goon) gets permission by the mods to open a new thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632637-Mongoose-and-reactions(now two threads http://forum.rpg.netshowthread.php?632966-Mongoose-and-reactions-part-two) in TTO about the shit he brought there. "Words of wisdom" from Ettin "This is quite a clusterfuck isn't it?" (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632637-Mongoose-and-reactions&p=15569566#post15569566). No, Ettin, you and your goon friends made this clusterfuck. A better and more mature approach would have been to send emails to the companies involved and discussed your concerns with them hiring GRIM privately. And then, and only then, if you were unsatisfied with their response, start spreading GRIM's blog post to the nets for more visibility and a possible boycott of those companies.
So, as you see, it was started and spread by the Goons in grognards.txt. "Goons, Goons all the way down!"
And that's the mess we see now. Mongoose Publishing's reputation damaged, lots of Purple posters banned, and a possible assault at Gencon.
Personal Note: Rape and Rape culture is bad, m'kay. Rape should only be used with care in a rpg campaign/session if everyone involved is comfortable with it being used as a plot device. I don't know GRIM or have any of his works and I don't care to. I will continue to support and buy Mongoose products.
Quote from: Bastetson;552268Her husband (aka Sir Whiteknight) couldn't stand the idea of any one disagreeing with her and uses a bullet metaphor in this thread https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/Q8vr7YkXEnm about GMS and has another message in the thread with "buy you a round" at Gencon. GMS kinda worried he might be assaulted at Gencon. Mr Darkmagic calls GMS a coward on twitter (https://twitter.com/FTHurley/status/215611863214469121) for not wanting a "discussion" with him at Gencon.
...what the fuck is wrong with these people...
Well the swine herd have certainly earned their nom de plume today. I don't know how else to describe a group of people who wilfully cover themselves in their own waste matter and jump up and down shrieking.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;552253People like that live only to pull the victim lever and receive the sweet, sweet nectar of attention. She's ugly and mousy, with a low-paying job, so creating a shitstorm like this is the best thing that's ever happened to her.
Yep. She's a professional victim.
I'm confused and frightened, my head hurts, and I think there are wolves after me.
Quote from: Ladybird;552255Exactly why is the bold section relevant? It's exactly this sort of behaviour that "gamers" get accused of.
It's relevant because it's true. I'm betting that Maladicta is an overweight white woman who has had trouble fitting in all her life, so she was naturally attracted to progressive politics. ("Boys don't like me? It's not because I'm fat, it's The Patriarchy!"). She gets to complain about her unsatisfying life, blame her failures on other people, tear down her betters, and get peer approval while she's at it. It's a dream job for a catty shrew.
Quote from: B.T.;552276It's relevant because it's true. I'm betting that Maladicta is an overweight white woman who has had trouble fitting in all her life, so she was naturally attracted to progressive politics. ("Boys don't like me? It's not because I'm fat, it's The Patriarchy!"). She gets to complain about her unsatisfying life, blame her failures on other people, tear down her betters, and get peer approval while she's at it. It's a dream job for a catty shrew.
Exactly.
Quote from: Bastetson;552268It looks like a few posters in this thread have the idea that this mess started on the Purple and then got SA and others involved.
That is incorrect.
This started at SA's grognards.txt by Newfork (Goon) on Jun 13th. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&userid=184238&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post404603848
They have been watching GRIM's blog and work (among others) for awhile and pounced when they saw a chance to cause some drama.
It was brought over to the Tang of Purple by Ettin (Ettin at Purple and SA- Goon). (no link due Purple log in needed).
That was where the Maladicta stuff started. Dogpile on Mongoose ensues. Mongoose Matt tries (and fumbles) a response while figuring out whats going on. No one notices GRIM wrote a couple of things for Cubicle 7 (among others), so C7 walks away clean.
It is then taken to Twitter by Tablehop (Tablehop at Purple; Mikan at SA - Goon). (https://twitter.com/tablehop/status/215316382210981888)
Twitter leads over to Google Plus where Gareth-Michael Skarka (aka GMS) and Sarah Darkmagic had words. Her husband (aka Sir Whiteknight) couldn't stand the idea of any one disagreeing with her and uses a bullet metaphor in this thread https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/Q8vr7YkXEnm about GMS and has another message in the thread with "buy you a round" at Gencon. GMS kinda worried he might be assaulted at Gencon. Mr Darkmagic calls GMS a coward on twitter (https://twitter.com/FTHurley/status/215611863214469121) for not wanting a "discussion" with him at Gencon. He continues on with this message. https://plus.google.com/111899461513439407504/posts/aaZ1vF6FAsU. GMS reiterates his position https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/268UqfidNir on Friday and it is seen as a victory by the Darkmagics. Still no apology from Sir Whiteknight on his "threats".
And back to Purple where Ettin (Goon) gets permission by the mods to open a new thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632637-Mongoose-and-reactions(now two threads http://forum.rpg.netshowthread.php?632966-Mongoose-and-reactions-part-two) in TTO about the shit he brought there. "Words of wisdom" from Ettin "This is quite a clusterfuck isn't it?" (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632637-Mongoose-and-reactions&p=15569566#post15569566). No, Ettin, you and your goon friends made this clusterfuck. A better and more mature approach would have been to send emails to the companies involved and discussed your concerns with them hiring GRIM privately. And then, and only then, if you were unsatisfied with their response, start spreading GRIM's blog post to the nets for more visibility and a possible boycott of those companies.
So, as you see, it was started and spread by the Goons in grognards.txt. "Goons, Goons all the way down!"
And that's the mess we see now. Mongoose Publishing's reputation damaged, lots of Purple posters banned, and a possible assault at Gencon.
Personal Note: Rape and Rape culture is bad, m'kay. Rape should only be used with care in a rpg campaign/session if everyone involved is comfortable with it being used as a plot device. I don't know GRIM or have any of his works and I don't care to. I will continue to support and buy Mongoose products.
I told them it was a goon-rush (among other things) in the original thread on tbp, but no-one was bothered.
Quote from: Ladybird;552267Ah, of course. It's her fault that you had to bring her appearance into this.
There are plenty of words we can go over here, things that she has actually said and done. We don't need to drag ourselves down into petty personal insults.
Stop defending this bitch. She's a crazy, lying, man-hating attention whore. That people on the Internet said "huhuhu Imma rape u" doesn't change anything. For fuck's sake, I post on another forum where one poster constantly threatens to rape and murder other people in between sending them gay scat porn. IT'S THE INTERNET, GET OVER IT.
Quote from: B.T.;552276It's relevant because it's true. I'm betting that Maladicta is an overweight white woman who has had trouble fitting in all her life, so she was naturally attracted to progressive politics. ("Boys don't like me? It's not because I'm fat, it's The Patriarchy!"). She gets to complain about her unsatisfying life, blame her failures on other people, tear down her betters, and get peer approval while she's at it. It's a dream job for a catty shrew.
That's a contemptible statement.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552280I told them it was a goon-rush (among other things) in the original thread on tbp, but no-one was bothered.
Is that like trolling or what.
Quote from: Bastetson;552268Twitter leads over to Google Plus where Gareth-Michael Skarka (aka GMS) and Sarah Darkmagic had words. Her husband (aka Sir Whiteknight) couldn't stand the idea of any one disagreeing with her and uses a bullet metaphor in this thread https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/Q8vr7YkXEnm about GMS and has another message in the thread with "buy you a round" at Gencon. GMS kinda worried he might be assaulted at Gencon. Mr Darkmagic calls GMS a coward on twitter (https://twitter.com/FTHurley/status/215611863214469121) for not wanting a "discussion" with him at Gencon. He continues on with this message. https://plus.google.com/111899461513439407504/posts/aaZ1vF6FAsU. GMS reiterates his position https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/268UqfidNir on Friday and it is seen as a victory by the Darkmagics. Still no apology from Sir Whiteknight on his "threats".
I must say that I can't abide people that first don't like what you say and then pretend to be all pally.
I must also say that reading that first link feels like stepping into an existing discussion in that it doesn't show the totality. the first post is GMS kicking off.
Quote from: The Traveller;552283Is that like trolling or what.
Yeah, it's basically a coordinated attack.
It's ironic really because in the past when they'd Goon rush some poor slob they used to post in the thread - "Time to board the Rapetrain!" That was also quite the common phrase in Goodfleet when they'd nail newbs mining.
So there you go, let's see if we can talk about the semantics of
that. :D
Quote from: jeff37923;551903If anyone knows how to get in contact with James Desborough or Matthew Sprange, I'd like to hear their side of the story on this (without them having to worry about being banned for speaking their minds).
I would but I'm worried for his health if he gets into any more of this insanity.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552286Yeah, it's basically a coordinated attack.
It's ironic really because in the past when they'd Goon rush some poor slob they used to post in the thread - "Time to board the Rapetrain!" That was also quite the common phrase in Goodfleet when they'd nail newbs mining.
So there you go, let's see if we can talk about the semantics of that. :D
SA turned from "socially awkward nerds" to "socially awkward Marxist social justice crusaders" awhile back. Chances are that you'd get probated for reinforcing rape culture for using a term like "rapetrain" nowadays.
Quote from: Ian Warner;552287I would but I'm worried for his health if he gets into any more of this insanity.
Hasn't the former already posted on this very thread?
Quote from: B.T.;552289SA turned from "socially awkward nerds" to "socially awkward Marxist social justice crusaders" awhile back. Chances are that you'd get probated for reinforcing rape culture for using a term like "rapetrain" nowadays.
How very progressive of them. Thankfully I stopped posting over there a long time ago.
Oh how the butthurt have fallen.
You know, back when I was still a regular at TBP, we only had a couple of assholes from SA, and I warned people about them, loudly and regularly, because I knew what fucking bullshit behavior they'd bring with them, and I never ceased to be proven right.
Now see what you get for not listening to me?
So am I a troll or have I been successfully trolled?
Not sure I care, really, because when it comes down to it, no matter how you slice it, we're in a horrible hobby full of horrible people.
And I'm one of them.
Edit: but whatever, I didn't troll anyone in this thread, and I took my stand on a couple of basic points that thought were being lost in the huff. I'm going to stand buy those points, because to do otherwise, no matter how much I'd like to get a long with everyone would be cowardly. However, Kanada will be returning shortly.
Quote from: Aos;552294So am I a troll or have I been successfully trolled?
Not sure I care, really, because when it comes down to it, no matter how you slice it, we're in a horrible hobby full of horrible people.
And I'm one of them.
It seems like we're all of us being trolled by SA and James.
Quote from: CRKrueger;552018Basically, this tempest is the textbook example of everything that is wrong with the current state of RPG Internet discourse with the original expressed ideas (both of which were true) being the first things to be pulped and splattered by the gristmill.
Which is why I only really post and read here. Lie and twist shit here and you'll be rightly called on it and subsequently either ignored or ridiculed, especially by the folks who discuss honestly and in good faith. Pretty much all I have to say on this entire ridiculously over-blown and misrepresented non-issue.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552065If you want to target a useless hack (and his fucked-up fans) who turns out crap products that are offensive (that's you, Grim), then you've got to widen the net to include idiots who have pretensions that what they are creating is 'art' or somehow meaningful. Yes, i'm talking about the Forge, misery tourism and Vincent Baker.
Where were the arseholes making a rumpus about this when stuff like Poison'd and Maid (which is another kettle of fucked-up shit. Murder condoms, anyone?) turned up?
I got PMs from posters at RPGnet when Poison'd was being discussed that would curl your hair - Rape of fictional characters in an RPG is fine and dandy 'cos it's not real. Shit, Baker even posted an 'actual play' that posited that fucking someone against their will with a dildo was "beautiful."
I'm with you. This is all a pile of shit being thrown around by people with agendas.
checking my agenda: today I'm scheduled to smoke dope and cuss a lot. Also tonight's game has been cancelled because someone has jet lag or something.
Also: Sig, are you still going to do that map, I can't wait to see it.
Quote from: Sigmund;552299I'm with you. This is all a pile of shit being thrown around by people with agendas.
No. It's some valid concerns about how gaming is represented to 'others' and how it treats women, which has other people who are in it for shits & giggles riding its shirt-tails. The moral high-ground, however, was lost the moment the petition was started. It's a pretty big jump from "this is vile shit that i find offensive" to "this person supports rape and/or is a wannabe rapist."
I share the concerns that lie behind this shit-storm, but that was a public petition that might have massive repercussions for Desborough.
Don't get me wrong - i hate that stuff. All of it. Grims puerile crap, and the fucked-up stuff from Baker and the Maid crew etc, but when you start trying to fuck with someones
life, you had better be pretty sure you're right with the facts.
I mean, shit, this is roleplaying! What happened to playing for fun, the pleasure and enjoyment that comes from levelling up, getting a magic sword, or paying off the loan on your starship? I'll tell you what, the 99% of players who have always done that are
still doing that regardless of all the transgressive stuff added together.
With that, i'm bowing out. :hatsoff:
Quote from: J Arcane;552295It seems like we're all of us being trolled by SA and James.
They sound like crusaders more than trolls tbh, but even in the latter case they've done a great job of smoking out the nest of vipers over at the babbling purple, so not without value.
Quote from: Sigmund;552296Which is why I only really post and read here. Lie and twist shit here and you'll be rightly called on it and subsequently either ignored or ridiculed, especially by the folks who discuss honestly and in good faith.
This is the forum that catches all the sockpuppets, apparently.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: One Horse Town;552309No. It's some valid concerns about how gaming is represented to 'others' and how it treats women,
This was where I was coming from.
Also @ Traveller- no sweat on the Nazi thing. Now, there's a line worth quoting.
I think the vast majority of poster in this thread have their hearts in the right place and overall, you're all pretty swell in my book. Not that anyone should give a shit what I think, in fact, if you find yourself doing so, you've likely gone terribly wrong. Get help.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552309No. It's some valid concerns about how gaming is represented to 'others' and how it treats women, which has other people who are in it for shits & giggles riding its shirt-tails. The moral high-ground, however, was lost the moment the petition was started. It's a pretty big jump from "this is vile shit that i find offensive" to "this person supports rape and/or is a wannabe rapist."
I share the concerns that lie behind this shit-storm, but that was a public petition that might have massive repercussions for Desborough.
Don't get me wrong - i hate that stuff. All of it. Grims puerile crap, and the fucked-up stuff from Baker and the Maid crew etc, but when you start trying to fuck with someones life, you had better be pretty sure you're right with the facts.
I mean, shit, this is roleplaying! What happened to playing for fun, the pleasure and enjoyment that comes from levelling up, getting a magic sword, or paying off the loan on your starship? I'll tell you what, the 99% of players who have always done that are still doing that regardless of all the transgressive stuff added together.
With that, i'm bowing out. :hatsoff:
Fuck you for saying you have "valid concerns," you politically-correct weakling. That's the sort of hand-wringing of government busybodies and corporate middlemen. "Uh, uh, I have some
concerns about your speech." No, you don't "have concerns"; you either have a grievance or you don't.
We now return you to your regularly-scheduled posting.
Quote from: Aos;552301checking my agenda: today I'm scheduled to smoke dope and cuss a lot. Also tonight's game has been cancelled because someone has jet lag or something.
Also: Sig, are you still going to do that map, I can't wait to see it.
See, I knew the Return of Kaneda-Aos would also see a return of normal Aos-postings.
Quote from: Bastetson;552268It looks like a few posters in this thread have the idea that this mess started on the Purple and then got SA and others involved.
That is incorrect.
This started at SA's grognards.txt by Newfork (Goon) on Jun 13th. (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&userid=184238&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post404603848
They have been watching GRIM's blog and work (among others) for awhile and pounced when they saw a chance to cause some drama.
It was brought over to the Tang of Purple by Ettin (Ettin at Purple and SA- Goon). (no link due Purple log in needed).
That was where the Maladicta stuff started. Dogpile on Mongoose ensues. Mongoose Matt tries (and fumbles) a response while figuring out whats going on. No one notices GRIM wrote a couple of things for Cubicle 7 (among others), so C7 walks away clean.
It is then taken to Twitter by Tablehop (Tablehop at Purple; Mikan at SA - Goon). (https://twitter.com/tablehop/status/215316382210981888)
Twitter leads over to Google Plus where Gareth-Michael Skarka (aka GMS) and Sarah Darkmagic had words. Her husband (aka Sir Whiteknight) couldn't stand the idea of any one disagreeing with her and uses a bullet metaphor in this thread https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/Q8vr7YkXEnm about GMS and has another message in the thread with "buy you a round" at Gencon. GMS kinda worried he might be assaulted at Gencon. Mr Darkmagic calls GMS a coward on twitter (https://twitter.com/FTHurley/status/215611863214469121) for not wanting a "discussion" with him at Gencon. He continues on with this message. https://plus.google.com/111899461513439407504/posts/aaZ1vF6FAsU. GMS reiterates his position https://plus.google.com/116302400822653221646/posts/268UqfidNir on Friday and it is seen as a victory by the Darkmagics. Still no apology from Sir Whiteknight on his "threats".
And back to Purple where Ettin (Goon) gets permission by the mods to open a new thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632637-Mongoose-and-reactions(now two threads http://forum.rpg.netshowthread.php?632966-Mongoose-and-reactions-part-two) in TTO about the shit he brought there. "Words of wisdom" from Ettin "This is quite a clusterfuck isn't it?" (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632637-Mongoose-and-reactions&p=15569566#post15569566). No, Ettin, you and your goon friends made this clusterfuck. A better and more mature approach would have been to send emails to the companies involved and discussed your concerns with them hiring GRIM privately. And then, and only then, if you were unsatisfied with their response, start spreading GRIM's blog post to the nets for more visibility and a possible boycott of those companies.
So, as you see, it was started and spread by the Goons in grognards.txt. "Goons, Goons all the way down!"
And that's the mess we see now. Mongoose Publishing's reputation damaged, lots of Purple posters banned, and a possible assault at Gencon.
Personal Note: Rape and Rape culture is bad, m'kay. Rape should only be used with care in a rpg campaign/session if everyone involved is comfortable with it being used as a plot device. I don't know GRIM or have any of his works and I don't care to. I will continue to support and buy Mongoose products.
Everybody should read this post.
Quote from: B.T.;552276It's relevant because it's true. I'm betting that Maladicta is an overweight white woman who has had trouble fitting in all her life, so she was naturally attracted to progressive politics. ("Boys don't like me? It's not because I'm fat, it's The Patriarchy!"). She gets to complain about her unsatisfying life, blame her failures on other people, tear down her betters, and get peer approval while she's at it. It's a dream job for a catty shrew.
Are you saying she deserved comments like "she doesn't deserve consent and she needs to get fucked"?
Quote from: B.T.;552281Stop defending this bitch. She's a crazy, lying, man-hating attention whore. That people on the Internet said "huhuhu Imma rape u" doesn't change anything. For fuck's sake, I post on another forum where one poster constantly threatens to rape and murder other people in between sending them gay scat porn. IT'S THE INTERNET, GET OVER IT.
So it's okay to say "I'm going to rape you" to someone... "because the internet"?
Quote from: B.T.;552281Stop defending this bitch. She's a crazy, lying, man-hating attention whore. That people on the Internet said "huhuhu Imma rape u" doesn't change anything. For fuck's sake, I post on another forum where one poster constantly threatens to rape and murder other people in between sending them gay scat porn. IT'S THE INTERNET, GET OVER IT.
So it's okay to say "I'm going to rape you" to someone... "because the internet"?
Quote from: Aos;552301checking my agenda: today I'm scheduled to smoke dope and cuss a lot. Also tonight's game has been cancelled because someone has jet lag or something.
Also: Sig, are you still going to do that map, I can't wait to see it.
Oh yeah, definitely. In fact, I think I'll start messing with that right now :)
Quote from: The Traveller;551915any more than I'd include graphic descriptions of baby eating.
Actually I have. Gosh them PCs decided they was lawful-good with a strong element of vengeful after they saw that..
Quote from: Sigmund;552331Oh yeah, definitely. In fact, I think I'll start messing with that right now :)
Thread salvaged!
Quote from: One Horse Town;552309No. It's some valid concerns about how gaming is represented to 'others' and how it treats women, which has other people who are in it for shits & giggles riding its shirt-tails. The moral high-ground, however, was lost the moment the petition was started. It's a pretty big jump from "this is vile shit that i find offensive" to "this person supports rape and/or is a wannabe rapist."
Which, to me, is where the agenda-flinging starts. The dishonest woman latched on to this non-issue as a way to push her agenda, and a whole heap of seemingly brainless douche-bags jumped on her train and rode the shit out of it. Then, folks with opposing agendas flung shit back. I mean really, does anyone expect GMS to approach even this illusion of a controversial issue with restraint or civility? Does he approach any issue with restraint or civility?
QuoteI share the concerns that lie behind this shit-storm, but that was a public petition that might have massive repercussions for Desborough.
Don't get me wrong - i hate that stuff. All of it. Grims puerile crap, and the fucked-up stuff from Baker and the Maid crew etc, but when you start trying to fuck with someones life, you had better be pretty sure you're right with the facts.
I mean, shit, this is roleplaying! What happened to playing for fun, the pleasure and enjoyment that comes from levelling up, getting a magic sword, or paying off the loan on your starship? I'll tell you what, the 99% of players who have always done that are still doing that regardless of all the transgressive stuff added together.
With that, i'm bowing out. :hatsoff:
Your last paragraph here is where I am as well. This bullshit, being that it's public, is doing absolutely nothing but painting the participants of our hobby/sub-culture as douchebags. Unfortunately, we're all getting covered by the shit they're flinging, and people's chosen livelihoods could be affected (because we know people will believe whatever propaganda they're force-fed by folks like agenda-woman).
What's even worse as far as I'm concerned is that a great resource that the petitions have turned out to be has been abused by this woman (like filing a frivolous lawsuit), cheapening it in my opinion. There are people with real issues out there, and this chick is using dishonesty and misdirection to attack, through the petition, an author and company she merely happens to not find to her taste. It's an attempt at censorship that I find personally distasteful. The fact that her attempted censorship is a far more serious issue in the real world the rest of us live in than her personal dislike of a single author who has done no worse than legions of writers and other creatives throughout history will of course be lost in a cloud of political correctness and knee-jerk reaction to the word "rape".
And with this I'm going to bow out as well. I had resisted even commenting on this retarded mess until now, so I'm going to try to go back to that. Doing any more is just going to give this whole farce more weight than it deserves.
Edit: Besides, Aos' map is more important than this monumental flinging of monkey-poo.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552309No. It's some valid concerns about how gaming is represented to 'others' and how it treats women, which has other people who are in it for shits & giggles riding its shirt-tails. The moral high-ground, however, was lost the moment the petition was started. It's a pretty big jump from "this is vile shit that i find offensive" to "this person supports rape and/or is a wannabe rapist."
I share the concerns that lie behind this shit-storm, but that was a public petition that might have massive repercussions for Desborough.
Don't get me wrong - i hate that stuff. All of it. Grims puerile crap, and the fucked-up stuff from Baker and the Maid crew etc, but when you start trying to fuck with someones life, you had better be pretty sure you're right with the facts.
I mean, shit, this is roleplaying! What happened to playing for fun, the pleasure and enjoyment that comes from levelling up, getting a magic sword, or paying off the loan on your starship? I'll tell you what, the 99% of players who have always done that are still doing that regardless of all the transgressive stuff added together.
With that, i'm bowing out. :hatsoff:
I completely agree on the whole line of thought. I just don't think you should bow out of the conversation at all, because we need that kind of sanity on this thread. If that's what you feel is best, however, I can't really blame you for that.
Quote from: Benoist;552342I completely agree on the whole line of thought. I just don't think you should bow out of the conversation at all, because we need that kind of sanity on this thread. If that's what you feel is best, however, I can't really blame you for that.
I agree as well.
However, I'm not sure what much more could be brought up, here. The people who believe this is a politically correctness gone astray have had their say. The people who think everyone's a moron have had their say. And, the people who think everyone else is trying to encourage rape culture have had their say, too.
What is left but socio-political bickering?
//Panjumanju
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552179Kenguans.
MEESA HAFTA PICKPOCKET.
The only time you'd find me praying for a mind-flayer invasion.
"Pssshaw, these brains are devoid of nutrition..."
Quote from: Aos;552301checking my agenda: today I'm scheduled to smoke dope and cuss a lot.
Me too! Except my game hasn't been cancelled.
Quote from: Benoist;552326Are you saying she deserved comments like "she doesn't deserve consent and she needs to get fucked"?
I sure am. She acted like a piece of shit and caught flak for it. Maybe this will teach her to think twice before lying and dramawhoring. (Who am I kidding? Feminists don't think.)
QuoteSo it's okay to say "I'm going to rape you" to someone... "because the internet"?
Duh.
Quote from: B.T.;552356Quote from: Benoist;552326Are you saying she deserved comments like "she doesn't deserve consent and she needs to get fucked"?
I sure am. She acted like a piece of shit and caught flak for it. Maybe this will teach her to think twice before lying and dramawhoring. (Who am I kidding? Feminists don't think.)
QuoteSo it's okay to say "I'm going to rape you" to someone... "because the internet"?
Duh.
Wow.
Goodbye, sweetheart.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552361Goodbye, sweetheart.
Was about to do it. Thank you.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552361Goodbye, sweetheart.
What on Earth just happened? That's insane. I don't think any forum is meant to contain such drama in such a short period of time.
//Panjumanju
I am very, very glad that I refreshed the thread before posting my reply.
I think I've said everything I have to say on this matter.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552361Goodbye, sweetheart.
Thank You OHT. Wow, what a shitstorm I'm seriously floored here.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552078First time poster here (registered a while ago but hadn't posted anything as I was just reading and lurking).
Yes, I come from TBP (No they didn't ban me yet).
One thing before I get to my ontopic comments. It's a seriously refreshing change of pace not being scared shitless to post in a controversial thread and actually speak your mind. So thanks for that.
You're welcome and welcome to theRPGsite.
RPGPundit
I can't believe the SOB actually said that. I mean we're all more or less in agreement that Maladicta indeed has an agenda and is going about her protest the wrong way. But going from there to say it's okay to call for rape and that "it'd do her some good and maybe she'd think twice before lying" that is NOT on. Not at all. Period.
Quote from: RobMuadib;552104(especially since they largely banned every dissenting opinion s the thread went on.)
So in summary, I reject the messenger.
Yes, I noticed that too. It was really amusing how anyone who posted a message critical of the petition was threadbanned or worse because they were being "aggressive" or the likes, but the ones who wished Mongoose to be shut down or what-have-you had a free-for-all.
They really desperately want an echo chamber in there.
RPGPundit
I was surprised I wasn't banned for my official statement.
Quote from: Ian Warner;552373I was surprised I wasn't banned for my official statement.
What was that?
Quote from: Benoist;552371But going from there to say it's okay to call for rape and that "it'd do her some good and maybe she'd think twice before lying" that is NOT on.
I am pretty sure from the wording he meant the 'Rape Threats' would 'do her good', rather than her actual rape.
This statement should not be read as me supporting B.T.s position.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552290Hasn't the former already posted on this very thread?
Yes sorry I didn't notice.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552374What was that?
Linky (http://kittiwake.blog.co.uk/2012/06/22/criticism-kittiwake-and-postmortem-13920403/)
Quote from: Ian Warner;552377Linky (http://kittiwake.blog.co.uk/2012/06/22/criticism-kittiwake-and-postmortem-13920403/)
Oh, OK.
Thanks.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552361Goodbye, sweetheart.
About fucking time.
While I suspect this is exactly what he's wanted all along, his presence nevertheless cheapened this site to the extreme and gave far too much ammunition to the folks who mistake our allowance of free speech for actual support of such trash.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552361Goodbye, sweetheart.
Thank you.
Quote from: Ian Warner;552377Linky (http://kittiwake.blog.co.uk/2012/06/22/criticism-kittiwake-and-postmortem-13920403/)
Thanks for that it's helping me to conceptualize the actual subtext of what's actually happening.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552361Goodbye, sweetheart.
Quote from: Benoist;552365Was about to do it. Thank you.
Honestly, I think there were plenty of things that B.T. has said that were far more ban-worthy than this, particularly on a site that places a high value on free speech and without warning.
As far as I can tell, he was not saying that it was OK to sexually assault her but saying that he thought she deserved the nasty comments because of her own unethical behavior -- basically that she was reaping what she sowed in the form of speech. While there are plenty of reasons to believe that attitude is wrong and to disagree with him, I would argue that it's not all that different from the attitude that leads lying about opponents in order to destroy them and their livelihood and a Chicago Way (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094226/quotes) attitude toward such arguments is hardly uncommon and is well represented in the comments that I've read about this particular issue. Yes, I think B.T. can be quite the lawcrapper and holds some mighty offensive views on various topics, but I'd hate to see the banning criteria here slide down the slippery slope toward banning people for being offensive or for rubbing the moral sensibilities of the moderators the wrong way. Down that path lies the end of free speech because the biggest test of free speech is letting someone say something you find really offensive.
And please note that I also opposed the banning of Pseudoephedrine, even though I understand why it happened, so this isn't a matter of liking what B.T. was saying or agreeing with his politics.
Now, if he had said that she actually deserved to be raped, and you certainly could have asked him to clarify that point, then I'd agree he needed an instant banning without a warning. But I don't think that's what he said.
Quote from: John Morrow;552385Honestly, I think there were plenty of things that B.T. has said that were far more ban-worthy than this, particularly on a site that places a high value on free speech and without warning.
As far as I can tell, he was not saying that it was OK to sexually assault her but saying that he thought she deserved the nasty comments because of her own unethical behavior -- basically that she was reaping what she sowed in the form of speech. While there are plenty of reasons to believe that attitude is wrong and to disagree with him, I would argue that it's not all that different from the attitude that leads lying about opponents in order to destroy them and their livelihood and a Chicago Way (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094226/quotes) attitude toward such arguments is hardly uncommon and is well represented in the comments that I've read about this particular issue. Yes, I think B.T. can be quite the lawcrapper and holds some mighty offensive views on various topics, but I'd hate to see the banning criteria here slide down the slippery slope toward banning people for being offensive or for rubbing the moral sensibilities of the moderators the wrong way. Down that path lies the end of free speech because the biggest test of free speech is letting someone say something you find really offensive.
And please note that I also opposed the banning of Pseudoephedrine, even though I understand why it happened, so this isn't a matter of liking what B.T. was saying or agreeing with his politics.
Now, if he had said that she actually deserved to be raped, and you certainly could have asked him to clarify that point, then I'd agree he needed an instant banning without a warning. But I don't think that's what he said.
Mate, the guy has been warned for posting links to porn - against forum rules. He could have gone then. As it was, we all had to put up with his drivel for months more.
Sometimes, my good friend, freedom of speech or not, you really have to look at who you're sharing a camp-fire with.
Quote from: Benoist;552371I can't believe the SOB actually said that. I mean we're all more or less in agreement that Maladicta indeed has an agenda and is going about her protest the wrong way. But going from there to say it's okay to call for rape and that "it'd do her some good and maybe she'd think twice before lying" that is NOT on. Not at all. Period.
Not what he said, Benoist, and unless you are turning into an RPGnet trap moderator, you should know that.
Quote from: Benoist;552326Are you saying she deserved comments like "she doesn't deserve consent and she needs to get fucked"?
Quote from: Benoist;552326So it's okay to say "I'm going to rape you" to someone... "because the internet"?
You asked him about speech, not actual rape. He responded about speech, not rape. Now, if you had asked him to further clarify if he would support her actual rape and he did, I'd support the banning call here, but that's not what I see happening here. What it looks like is you baited him to say he supported one thing and then banned him for supporting something else. Not cool.
And as jadrax said, please don't read this as support for B.T.'s position. It's not. But I think the free speech guarantees here are critically important and don't want to see people banned for offending the moderators. If I wanted that, I could go back to RPGnet, since I've never been banned there.
If you feel that strongly about the ban, open a thread in the Help Desk.
Who knows, Pundit might agree with you and reinstate him.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552386Mate, the guy has been warned for posting links to porn - against forum rules. He could have gone then. As it was, we all had to put up with his drivel for months more.
Then you should have banned him there for that. Did he post porn links after the warning? Is he being banned for what he said or because you don't like him?
Quote from: One Horse Town;552386Sometimes, my good friend, freedom of speech or not, you really have to look at who you're sharing a camp-fire with.
And once the moderators vote people off the island because they don't like someone, where does that lead?
Quote from: One Horse Town;552389If you feel that strongly about the ban, open a thread in the Help Desk.
Who knows, Pundit might agree with you and reinstate him.
OK. Will do.
Quote from: John Morrow;552390Then you should have banned him there for that. Did he post porn links after the warning? Is he being banned for what he said or because you don't like him?
And once the moderators vote people off the island because they don't like someone, where does that lead?
Mate, if i banned people i didn't like, this place would have about 30 posters.
I want to state for the record that the only reason why I didn't ban BT outright was precisely because I messaged the Pundit about it before hand. His answer was clear and straightforward: it was our call, and OHT did the right thing. I stand 100% behind him on this one.
And John Morrow proves once again that there is no one so vile on this site that someone won't whine and cry fascism at their removal.
Quote from: Benoist;552393I want to state for the record that the only reason why I didn't ban BT outright was precisely because I messaged the Pundit about it before hand. His answer was clear and straightforward: it was our call, and OHT did the right thing. I stand 100% behind him on this one.
I understand Jadrax and Morrow's concern but even Free Speech does has limits and if you guys are comfortable with your decision then I am fine with it. Thanks for the clarification though.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552078First time poster here (registered a while ago but hadn't posted anything as I was just reading and lurking).
Welcome to the adult swim.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552078It's a seriously refreshing change of pace not being scared shitless to post in a controversial thread and actually speak your mind.
Yes. Yes, it is.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552386Sometimes, my good friend, freedom of speech or not, you really have to look at who you're sharing a camp-fire with.
Worth repeating.
Quote from: Ian Warner;552377Linky (http://kittiwake.blog.co.uk/2012/06/22/criticism-kittiwake-and-postmortem-13920403/)
Tough Justice is NOT unjustly praised (coming from someone that's probably heaped as much praise as anyone on it).
I posted in "Trouble Tickets" over at RPGnet that I, too, had noticed the steady thread-banning being leveled almost entirely at the anti-petition side of the argument; citing that as my reason for bowing out of RPGNet, despite the effort I'd put into contributing to the community since the successful appeal of my perma-ban.
It's obvious to me that several moderators, notably Kai Tave and Darren MacLennan were essentially arguing one side of the issue with red text, which means to me that it's official policy that somebody who disagrees is not welcome there.
I'm posting this here for only one reason: So that when they suddenly announce that my perma-ban has been re-instated for some reason, I can point to this.
Quote from: J Arcane;552394And John Morrow proves once again that there is no one so vile on this site that someone won't whine and cry fascism at their removal.
What differentiates this site from most other RPG forums is the level to which is supports free speech and the test of support for free speech is the toleration of opinions that one doesn't like or even finds offensive, just as the test of support for democracy is the toleration of the other side winning an election. It's easy to support free speech when you like what's being said and easy to support democracy when your side is winning elections. It's hard to support those things when they aren't going your way.
Quote from: Benoist;552393I want to state for the record that the only reason why I didn't ban BT outright was precisely because I messaged the Pundit about it before hand. His answer was clear and straightforward: it was our call, and OHT did the right thing. I stand 100% behind him on this one.
What did you want to ban him for? Because you asked him about speech and then supported the ban on the grounds that he was advocating sexual assault. What was the opinion that he expressed that was ban-worthy, in your words? I ask because this:
Quote from: Benoist;552371I can't believe the SOB actually said that. I mean we're all more or less in agreement that Maladicta indeed has an agenda and is going about her protest the wrong way. But going from there to say it's okay to call for rape and that "it'd do her some good and maybe she'd think twice before lying" that is NOT on. Not at all. Period.
....is a false characterization of what you asked him about and how he responded. He may, in fact, hold that opinion and you could have asked him about that, and then as ban would make sense, but that's not what he said up to that point and I think you are putting words in his mouth to justify banning him. Not cool.
EDIT - Retracted "dishonest", which I think is a false characterization of your comments.
John please accept my sincere apology for doing this, but I agree with you.
So with that, have I managed to leave anyone in the thread un pissed off at me, because that would be a shame, really,
Quote from: Aos;552411John please accept my sincere apology for doing this, but I agree with you.
So with that, have I managed to leave anyone in the thread un pissed off at me, because that would be a shame, really,
You never piss me off. I'm in agreement with you about 90% of the time and the other remaining 10% I find you to be an interesting and engaging poster.
Quote from: GMSkarka;552404I posted in "Trouble Tickets" over at RPGnet that I, too, had noticed the steady thread-banning being leveled almost entirely at the anti-petition side of the argument; citing that as my reason for bowing out of RPGNet, despite the effort I'd put into contributing to the community since the successful appeal of my perma-ban.
It's obvious to me that several moderators, notably Kai Tave and Darren MacLennan were essentially arguing one side of the issue with red text, which means to me that it's official policy that somebody who disagrees is not welcome there.
I'm posting this here for only one reason: So that when they suddenly announce that my perma-ban has been re-instated for some reason, I can point to this.
The only thing RPGnet has that this place hasn't (so far) is a tremendous creative trust. There's lots of creativity here of course, but a lot more over there, purely due to numbers I guess - no offence intended to anyone. Despite posting in this thread I really don't care about industry antics, edition wars, gossip, bitching or what have you. All I care about is the creativity.
That's why before I bowed out of the place myself, I set a very specific test for the moderators and the admins in my own trouble ticket, a test to find out what was more important to them, that rich creativity, gaming, or pushing sociopolitical agendas.
I did this because it took a long time for what was actually going on there to sink in, and when I finally copped it I couldn't believe it. Sure there were some dicks, but there are dicks everywhere. It couldn't be the case that the web's own centre for RPG discussion was that addled?
They failed that test with flying colours at every level, no doubt without even realising they were being tested, so I left it there.
So basically I don't see RPGnet having a big future ahead of it as the premier hub for the hobby. When the top is rotten, the rest has to come down sooner or later. As long as their top priority is by far and away pushing agendas, they will just push people away. Meanwhile I'm trying to dredge up a little creativity and get that ball rolling a bit faster. :D
Quote from: Benoist;552371I can't believe the SOB actually said that. I mean we're all more or less in agreement that Maladicta indeed has an agenda and is going about her protest the wrong way. But going from there to say it's okay to call for rape and that "it'd do her some good and maybe she'd think twice before lying" that is NOT on. Not at all. Period.
I agree 100%. I despise people like this Maladicta chick, but even I understand that is absolutely no license to condone or encourage, through action or speech, any form of real world violence of any kind. To actually type out and post something so retarded is an indication of someone who's input is not valuable enough to be considered a loss IMO.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;552401Tough Justice is NOT unjustly praised (coming from someone that's probably heaped as much praise as anyone on it).
Nice of you to say: but I'm sure I can do better.
Quote from: John Morrow;552407What did you want to ban him for? Because you asked him about speech and then supported the ban on the grounds that he was advocating sexual assault. What was the opinion that he expressed that was ban-worthy, in your words? I ask because this:
I can't speak for Benny or OHT, but to me, thie part where Benny posted...
Quote from: Benoist;552371So it's okay to say "I'm going to rape you" to someone... "because the internet"?
... and B.T. posted...
Quote from: B.T.;552356Duh.
... in response was the big problem. IMO that is condoning threats of violence, which is a crime here in America where I live, and IMO wrong whether a crime or not. BT said it's ok to commit assault against a person.
Quote from: Aos;552411John please accept my sincere apology for doing this, but I agree with you.
So with that, have I managed to leave anyone in the thread un pissed off at me, because that would be a shame, really,
It's impossible to be pissed off at you Aos, you'r posts are almost always too awesome for that :D Besides, for an honest poster like you, expressing your opinion is never a bad thing IMO, whether I agree with you or not. Ok, back to the map.
It's like saying it's okay to post pedophile fantasies on the internet "because the internet." Fuck that noise, man. You can plead your First Amendment case all you want over your own blog, but you are not going to do this on the RPG Site if I have a say about it. Period.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552389If you feel that strongly about the ban, open a thread in the Help Desk.
Who knows, Pundit might agree with you and reinstate him.
Morrow is welcome to open a thread and for the subject to be discussed, but I would not agree or reinstate BT. I support the moderator's call in this case.
BT has been steadily escalating his comments and consistently looking to be more and more offensive on purpose, and has been trying to play an amusingly rpg.net-esque game of skirting the edge of the limits for as long as possible. I don't think that he adds enough to this site to make up for the disruptive nature of how his very presence here cheapened the fuck out of this place and gave consistent ammunition to people who hate this site. He couldn't have done it any better if he was a sockpuppet for one of the swine out to intentionally provide ammo for anti-rpgsite propaganda.
So the way I see it, this is a site-disruption issue. And I don't think it does credit to... well, anyone else here, to set up some kind of theoretical equivalency between their posting views and habits and BT's. No one else is even close.
RPGPundit
QuoteHe couldn't have done it any better if he was a sockpuppet for one of the swine out to intentionally provide ammo for anti-rpgsite propaganda.
I'm still not entirely convinced this wasn't the case.
I hate to be a conspiracist, but his story stinks to high heaven.
Quote from: J Arcane;552394And John Morrow proves once again that there is no one so vile on this site that someone won't whine and cry fascism at their removal.
I think that was proven at Walkerp's banning lo these many moons ago. The man actually came out in favor of mass genocide in favor of gaia and he still had fans here when the ban came down when he wouldn't get off the pro-pedo kick.
Quote from: Aos;552411John please accept my sincere apology for doing this, but I agree with you.
So with that, have I managed to leave anyone in the thread un pissed off at me, because that would be a shame, really,
Bwah? I usually agree with the majority of what you say and agree at least in large part with your stance in this thread. Besides you consistently make me laugh in a good way.
It was really more of a rhetorical question.
Jesus. Now all the morally upstanding folk at RPGnet are upbraiding Desborough snr for not bringing his son up all proper, like. Then, maybe he wouldn't be fucked in the head and they wouldn't be forced to read his books!
Also, in comedy capers Darren Maclennan posts in huge letters that the article title was "In Defence of Rape" - which i believe is an example of the chinese whispers going on.
That trainwreck of a thread should be closed. Any mod there who thinks they are being impartial in this are lying. The first thread was abbeted by at least 3 mods and an admin, now untruths are being posted in TT (before a hasty deletion.)
In fact, i would like this thread to be closed.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552446Jesus. Now all the morally upstanding folk at RPGnet are upbraiding Desborough snr for not bringing his son up all proper, like. Then, maybe he wouldn't be fucked in the head and they wouldn't be forced to read his books!
Also, in comedy capers Darren Maclennan posts in huge letters that the article title was "In Defence of Rape" - which i believe is an example of the chinese whispers going on.
That trainwreck of a thread should be closed. Any mod there who thinks they are being impartial in this are lying. The first thread was abbeted by at least 3 mods and an admin, now untruths are being posted in TT (before a hasty deletion.)
In fact, i would like this thread to be closed.
While I understand that this thread is painful, I also think that it is important and should be kept open. We are watching an agenda driven witch hunt designed to silence an author and damage publishers. The author is disreputable, but the instigator of this witch hunt has not been attacking the author's faults, instead she has lied about what the author said and is using that falsehood to drive the attack against him.
Because whether we like it or not, depending on how successful this is in shutting down John Desborough and/or shaming Mongoose Publishing into losing business, will determine whether or not this tactic is used again in the future to fulfill agendas that damage the gaming hobby and the gaming industry.
Quote from: jeff37923;552452While I understand that this thread is painful, I also think that it is important and should be kept open. We are watching an agenda driven witch hunt designed to silence an author and damage publishers. The author is disreputable, but the instigator of this witch hunt has not been attacking the author's faults, instead she has lied about what the author said and is using that falsehood to drive the attack against him.
I agree. I initially thought this discussion would damage the RPG Site, but I think now that the Pundit's decision to allow it to happen was in fact the right one. This thread ought to remain open, in my mind.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552446Jesus. Now all the morally upstanding folk at RPGnet are upbraiding Desborough snr for not bringing his son up all proper, like. Then, maybe he wouldn't be fucked in the head and they wouldn't be forced to read his books!
This is the thing though.
They don't care about creativity.
They don't care about gaming.
They do not care about RPGs.
I don't even think they give a shit about the latest industry gossip.
The only thing they (most of the mods and admins, excepting Levi) are interested in is pursuing an agenda they have identified as "morally right", and they will burn anyone that crosses their mobile battle lines. The original purpose of the site has been lost entirely, and the only saving grace for the place is people like Bailywolf. The man is a fucking phenomenon. He can spin a compelling tale out of two straws and a bucket of paint. What I'd like to see is therpgsite getting more folks like him on board.
These people are idiots of the worst kind, idiots with a tiny, tiny modicum of power, as GMS has discovered. Let them drown themselves in their own bucket, I say, better to light a candle than howl at the dark.
The trick now is not only to do that, but make more people aware of just how badly wrong things have gotten over there. The wise and creative stay well out of such discussions on rpgnet, sadly I'm either too deficient in wisdom or too bloody minded to have followed my own advice, why not let them know they needn't fear repercussions over here.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552392Mate, if i banned people i didn't like, this place would have about 30 posters.
Maybe you should fuck off then.
The idea that idiot mods involved in any discussion can ban people with opposing views is repulsive.
Only a mod who didn't post in this thread should have considered the ban.
Yes, I agree with the significance of what's going on. Its the Tangency Swine going directly to war with the RPG industry.
RPGPundit
Pundit is it possible to work out how much of an influence TBP has on purchasing habits as opposed to sites like this and having a loyal fan base?
I seem to remember you citing some numbers proving this site has more influence in the dim and distant past...
Quote from: _kent_;552471Maybe you should fuck off then.
The idea that idiot mods involved in any discussion can ban people with opposing views is repulsive.
Only a mod who didn't post in this thread should have considered the ban.
Well, if you can read properly, you might just see that my views weren't in diametric opposition. I'm just not a cunt about it with a years long history of dragging this site through the mud because 'free-speech'.
Quote from: Ian Warner;552479Pundit is it possible to work out how much of an influence TBP has on purchasing habits as opposed to sites like this and having a loyal fan base?
I've got no public data I can share, but I will say this:
Having FAR WEST fiction available for sale via Amazon & Barnes & Noble has really opened my eyes as to the relative purchasing power of RPG fans in general (not necessarily RPGnet in particular) vs the general world-wide audience.
The FAR WEST fiction is available at RPG-focused sites like RPGnow, DriveThru, etc., as well as my own FW site, and yet month-to-month the sales from Amazon bury those numbers. We've only got one book currently available, but fiction sales are strongly competing with gaming PDF sales (over 200 titles) at this point.
My personal take on this: the tipping point is long passed and the hardcore gaming niche audience is small enough that it can be completely absorbed into the larger 'geek-entertainment' market without a hiccup.
Quote from: GMSkarka;552486I've got no public data I can share, but I will say this:
Having FAR WEST fiction available for sale via Amazon & Barnes & Noble has really opened my eyes as to the relative purchasing power of RPG fans in general (not necessarily RPGnet in particular) vs the general world-wide audience.
The FAR WEST fiction is available at RPG-focused sites like RPGnow, DriveThru, etc., as well as my own FW site, and yet month-to-month the sales from Amazon bury those numbers. We've only got one book currently available, but fiction sales are strongly competing with gaming PDF sales (over 200 titles) at this point.
My personal take on this: the tipping point is long passed and the hardcore gaming niche audience is small enough that it can be completely absorbed into the larger 'geek-entertainment' market without a hiccup.
Most people aren't looking for RPGs, they're looking for books. Much of the fault for this state of affairs lies with the good folks over at rpgnet. If you want to rail against the hobby as a whole -> blog. Yes fiction will outsell rpgs, very few people have any idea that the option is available. And those that do often have a prejuidiced view of the hobby, courtesy of the creatures over at rpgnet.
Its got nothing to do with a tipping point. Stephen King has made, by himself, long ago, a raft more money than the entire industry put together. That's not the point.
I can take a pencil, paper, and a bit of wood and bring people into my imagination, make any dream come alive. I can walk beside Gandalf or Obi Wan if it suits my fancy. The difference between this and flat fiction is surely obvious.
Actually my fiction hasn't been selling at all compared with my games: Weird...
Quote from: RPGPundit;552473Yes, I agree with the significance of what's going on. Its the Tangency Swine going directly to war with the RPG industry.
RPGPundit
I don't think i entirely agree with this statement, but it's becoming pretty clear that some of the most vocal are non-gamers who know only what gamers have posted to get them outraged.
I mean, i've posted a pageful of quotes that glorify rape and mysogyny from Baker and his cronies and not only isn't it being acknowledgeod as such, apparently it's an attempt to derail the thread...
So yeah, looks like this is just about Desborough and these dicks can't see their hypocracy.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552499hypocracy.
An insightful typo.
They even changed the name of the thread. I'm sure they say it's because it's not about Mongoose anymore, but it looks to me that it's just a badly veiled attempt to refocus the attack.
And what the fuck is with the rampant hypocrisy of the mods? I've never seen it this bad. Trouble tickets is filled with people getting thread banned for questioning another poster. I know the rule is don't attack other posters but in a thread with people singing up just to mouth off about what an asshole Grim is and probably to support Maladicta and whoever the fuck else is in on this self-vindication circle jerk, you can't help but end up attacking the poster when they say completely inane and site senseless drivel as somehow fact.
It's become a ban-trap. I'm not sure why the thread is even still open. There is no actual point to the thread anymore. The way they are banning people the only people left by tomorrow will be all the people who agree with each other (Hyperbolic but hyperbole and Sarcasm are my middle name!).
On a side note, thanks to Pundit and Marleycat and all the rest who welcomed me. Very nice thing to do and thank you.
I've already told a few people about this place and I hope they register.
Lastly, The B.T. banning. I went back and read some other posts of his and holy shit. He sure did come uncorked a lot. Can't comment on the moderation. Seems like he hit his asshole quotient though a while back.
So all I'll say is this: Vaya con dios B.T. and good luck with getting the dosage on the meds right.
EDIT: Did anyone else notice on Maladicta's petition when it first went up (Might still be misspelled though) she misspelled prostrate? It reads Prostate.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552508And what the fuck is with the rampant hypocrisy of the mods? I've never seen it this bad.
The Emperor's clothes are finally being displayed for all to relish.
@ The Traveller, you couldn't be more correct about Baileywolf I seriously enjoy reading about anything he posts rpg related.
Quote from: Marleycat;552514@ The Traveller, you couldn't be more correct about Baileywolf I seriously enjoy reading about anything he posts rpg related.
He is a dynamo. One sadly wasted in that place. More, much more of that kind of creativity is needed, more 101 threads, more setting riffs, more marvellous imagination.
Quote from: John Morrow;552387Not what he said, Benoist, and unless you are turning into an RPGnet trap moderator, you should know that.
Benoist is a horrible moderator. I spend more time lurking than contributing ever since he got the gig.
I'm in agreement with what John has said regarding the ban, even though I doubt there would be a single B.T. fan on all the internet.
Quote from: Rum Cove;552519Benoist is a horrible moderator. I spend more time lurking than contributing ever since he got the gig.
Oh yeah, I can totally see someone crouching in fear, lest Ben drop the banhammer out of a clear sky. :rolleyes:
If most of the crap you're gonna post is lies to support a personal attack agenda, it's probably a good thing you fear the Mad Frenchman. :rotfl:
Quote from: Rum Cove;552519Benoist is a horrible moderator. I spend more time lurking than contributing ever since he got the gig.
And you're a horrible poster who just "contributes" whenever he smells blood to get his share of Ben-hate. Go fuck yourself.
Quote from: Sigmund;552434BT said it's ok to commit assault against a person.
Actually, he wrote "Duh", which could have meant just about anything coming from that guy.
Quote from: CRKrueger;552520Oh yeah, I can totally see someone crouching in fear, lest Ben drop the banhammer out of a clear sky. :rolleyes:
Not at all, but if he's the ambassador for this site, it's unfortunate.
If I'm the only one seeing it, so be it.
Quote from: Rum Cove;552524Not at all, but if he's the ambassador for this site, it's unfortunate.
If I'm the only one seeing it, so be it.
I'm the ambassador for this site.
Quote from: StormBringer;552525I'm the ambassador for this site.
And you do a commendable job. Congratulations.
Quote from: StormBringer;552525I'm the ambassador for this site.
Aos will be crushed to hear this.
Quote from: StormBringer;552525I'm the ambassador for this site.
I couldn't seriously disagree after being brave enough to go over To TGD and take their insults in good grace.
As for Ben? He's a bit hyperbolic but so what, I'm worse and regardless it doesn't affect his moderation. Just look at what you have to do to get banned from here, seriously. BT gave neither OHT or Ben a choice and I believe he wanted it that way.
Quote from: Rum Cove;552527And you do a commendable job. Congratulations.
:hatsoff:
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552529Aos will be crushed to hear this.
He'll get over it. He earned this disappointment by not getting Metal Earth pages to me quickly enough.
Quote from: Marleycat;552547I couldn't seriously disagree after being brave enough to go over To TGD and take their insults in good grace.
Pfff. They only have the one song over there, it's not too hard to throw them for a loop. :)
Quote from: Sigmund;552434... in response was the big problem. IMO that is condoning threats of violence, which is a crime here in America where I live, and IMO wrong whether a crime or not. BT said it's ok to commit assault against a person.
It's generally only a crime if a reasonable person believes that the violence is likely to be carried out and the characteristic of those dismissing or approving of the threats in question is that they don't appear to believe there is any chance of what was being threatened actually happening. If that wasn't the standard, then there are quite a few people who should be in jail that aren't (http://www.rahmfacts.com/facts/08dead.html). Yes, I agree it's wrong whether it's a crime or not, but if they are going to start banning people for expressing a wrong opinion here, I'd like a list of wrong opinions that I need to not express. For all of its faults, RPGnet gives one that courtesy, which is why I've never been banned there, even when I've expressed conservative opinions on Tangency.
Quote from: StormBringer;552550:hatsoff:
He'll get over it. He earned this disappointment by not getting Metal Earth pages to me quickly enough.
Pfff. They only have the one song over there, it's not too hard to throw them for a loop. :)
Oh, I get it. You're subtlety saying there may be an issue of high functioning autism coloring the general discussion.
That's weird it shows BT posted but I'm the last post. Ghost of BT indeed. If you're reading dude your last post is what you should have said.but it wasn't and to me makes it seem you got the result you actually wanted for some reason I don't understand. Because this site is about the most accepting and freewheeling about everything that I've ever seen and been allowed to be a member of.
Quote from: RPGPundit;552473Yes, I agree with the significance of what's going on. Its the Tangency Swine going directly to war with the RPG industry.
RPGPundit
Pundit, and everyone else, wanted to point that the 'Tangency Swine' have another hangout in the SA goons, most notably Mors Rattus, Ettin, they post shit over in the grognards.txt on something awful
This post is pretty telling...
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3098558&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1971#post404969146
QuoteEttin posted:
I take back a bunch of stuff I said about RPGSite, One Horse Town is a cool dude.
This was all started by you , the amount of lovely posters you have had banned on multiple forums is a credit to you
also checked into Circus Maximus.. nothing has changed they need another Anti-surprise sex Penguin.
They aren't interested in gaming, they're interested in posting lulzing and trolling for great justice. (all they do is troll other boards for the lulz and to start honeypots and bullshit)
So be aware.
To expand on this a bit
OBVIOUS COLLUSION IS OBVIOUS:
Original post
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632637-Mongoose-and-reactions
Ettin
( ﾟ -ﾟ) ┳━┳
Validated User
Mongoose, and reactions
So, after recent events some people have been thinking of not buying Mongoose products! I am curious about who is following through on this, or what people who haven't heard about it yet think of all this.
Basically...
• In a recent Tangency thread criticising James Desborough some users were upset that Mongoose publishes some of his stuff.*
• RPGnet poster MalaDicta started a petition on the topic.
• Mongoose noticed, and decided to post a poll about it with a sarcastic topic and an excluded middle. An early cache is here; later a "middle" option was added, and a while after the thread was quietly deleted.
• MalaDicta later had a conversation with Sprange, who accused her of being "immoral", "lying", and destroying Mongoose, among other things (transcript here).
That is about where we are at! Responses so far have been... mixed. MalaDicta herself has been receiving anonymous threatening emails since she started the petition. Desborough has tweeted that those threats are "not genuine" and it's her fault for leaving herself open to trolls (original feed is protected now). Gareth Skarka posted a defense in the Mongoose thread (couldn't find a cache of that) which led to an argument with Sarah Darkmagic in which he called her an "odious little toad" and openly threatened her and her husband. There might be some other commentary but if there is I've missed it.
So basically yeah, this sure is a thing.
*Note: This is a thread about Mongoose, things they do and the reactions to it, not the original mess. JamesCat said no more Desborough talk so if you wander off-topic you are going to make him a very sad man. And don't make personal attacks. Against anyone. Be a bro.
3rd post by Kai Taiv, in Red
Kai Tave
RPGnet Moderator
Re: Mongoose, and reactions
So we're clear and there's no confusion on the matter, Ettin sent a private message to the moderators requesting permission to start this thread up in light of the last one on the matter being closed and he was granted it. Speaking both as a moderator and a regular user I would very much like this thread to avoid having to be closed as well, and am issuing this blanket cautionary message to any who feel like participating in it; be on your best behavior, as we are keeping a close eye on this thread and will take a dim view of it turning ugly.
RPG.Net Moderator
Carefully constructed Ban-trap/Activism thread Is obvious.
I see plans within plans
Quote from: Marleycat;552563Oh, I get it. You're subtlety saying there may be an issue of high functioning autism coloring the general discussion.
Subtlety was never one of my strong points. :)
Although, after my last post over there, I think I have realised something. It's exactly like the prologue segment for episode 820 of Mystery Science Theater 3000, "Space Mutiny". The bots are researching something or another with an out-dated set of encyclopaedias, which they emphasise by noting that they have a mailing address for Macchu Picchu, a volume for the letter 'epsilon', and pictures of Stonehenge under construction. After the break, Mike gets them a set of encyclopaedias that are amazingly up-to-date and have electronic uplinks with "twenty-seven pages on Gwen Stefani alone!". Naturally, the bots then complain that they already miss complaining about the old set.
I think that is quite a bit of the atmosphere over there. They don't want the rules fixed; it would leave them with nothing to complain about.
Quote from: Marleycat;552563Oh, I get it. You're subtlety saying there may be an issue of high functioning autism coloring the general discussion.
You mean like every conversation with John Morrow?
Quote from: GRIM;552235Then the meaning [of rape] has shifted, at least within these groups. I think you mean condemn.
I differentiate between its use in such a way and the actual act in a similar way to I would to the phrase 'Run like a motherfucker'.
Ironically,
Oedipus is Greek for "swollen foot".
JG
Quote from: StormBringer;552589Subtlety was never one of my strong points. :)
Although, after my last post over there, I think I have realised something. It's exactly like the prologue segment for episode 820 of Mystery Science Theater 3000, "Space Mutiny". The bots are researching something or another with an out-dated set of encyclopaedias, which they emphasise by noting that they have a mailing address for Macchu Picchu, a volume for the letter 'epsilon', and pictures of Stonehenge under construction. After the break, Mike gets them a set of encyclopaedias that are amazingly up-to-date and have electronic uplinks with "twenty-seven pages on Gwen Stefani alone!". Naturally, the bots then complain that they already miss complaining about the old set.
I think that is quite a bit of the atmosphere over there. They don't want the rules fixed; it would leave them with nothing to complain about.
I knew all that without posting. It must be a "girl thing".;)
Quote from: Marleycat;552597I knew all that without posting. It must be a "girl thing".;)
Oh, you watch MST3K?
Quote from: J Arcane;552591You mean like every conversation with John Morrow?
Ok, this is a serious post. I actually like him and I know he respects my views. He's just too focused on rules is all.
Quote from: StormBringer;552599Oh, you watch MST3K?
Any chance I get. Understand though I can't quote chapter and verse on the show. I have other things to focus on beyond sci-fi and rpg's.
Quote from: Spike;552258(cue youtube video of lawyers teaching people to never say a fucking thing, ever and under any circumstances to cops because it can and will be used against you)
Yet another reason to never again post on RPG.net.
JG
Quote from: J Arcane;552381About fucking time.
While I suspect this is exactly what he's wanted all along, his presence nevertheless cheapened this site to the extreme and gave far too much ammunition to the folks who mistake our allowance of free speech for actual support of such trash.
Well, before banning B.T. I would have asked him to fill out a questionnaire:
1. Do you live under a bridge?
2. Is your skin green, rubbery and covered in warts and moss?
3. Is your nose the shape and length of a grocery-store carrot?
4. Can you regenerate severed limbs?
5. Do you speak with a Jamaican accent?
Quote from: The Traveller;552422The only thing RPGnet has that this place hasn't (so far) is a tremendous creative trust. There's lots of creativity here of course, but a lot more over there, purely due to numbers I guess - no offence intended to anyone. Despite posting in this thread I really don't care about industry antics, edition wars, gossip, bitching or what have you. All I care about is the creativity.
That's why before I bowed out of the place myself, I set a very specific test for the moderators and the admins in my own trouble ticket, a test to find out what was more important to them, that rich creativity, gaming, or pushing sociopolitical agendas.
I did this because it took a long time for what was actually going on there to sink in, and when I finally copped it I couldn't believe it. Sure there were some dicks, but there are dicks everywhere. It couldn't be the case that the web's own centre for RPG discussion was that addled?
They failed that test with flying colours at every level, no doubt without even realising they were being tested, so I left it there.
So basically I don't see RPGnet having a big future ahead of it as the premier hub for the hobby. When the top is rotten, the rest has to come down sooner or later. As long as their top priority is by far and away pushing agendas, they will just push people away. Meanwhile I'm trying to dredge up a little creativity and get that ball rolling a bit faster. :D
Yeah, that's why I left, ultimately. If it was still a good place to discuss roleplaying and promote the industry, I could curb my speech, walk away from Tangency and just use the forum for what it was intended for. But roleplaying is no longer what it's about. They don't get that many RPG reviews any more and when I was still following them, those reviews didn't seem to get any comments.
I think that as they allow themselves to be trolled like this for the sake of the correct "sociopolitical agenda", more and more people within the industry will see RPG.net as more a liability to them than an asset. More so than B.T. and his Dave-Sim-without-the-talent ranting here.
JG
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552508EDIT: Did anyone else notice on Maladicta's petition when it first went up (Might still be misspelled though) she misspelled prostrate? It reads Prostate.
Now THAT's an awesome typo.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;552623Now THAT's an awesome typo.
JG
I will remind you of that when you are scheduled for a prostrate exam.
Quote from: StormBringer;552624I will remind you of that when you are scheduled for a prostrate exam.
Aren't all prostate exams prostrate exams?
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;552623Now THAT's an awesome typo.
JG
Hey now! She may be a lair but given she has no prostate or prostrate she should be given a break. :)
Quote from: Marleycat;552626Hey now! She may be a lair but given she has no prostate she should be given a break. :)
A lair? Is that like the Arduin Grimoire typo where somebody read "percentage of monster being encountered at lair" as "% in liar"?
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;552627A lair? Is that like the Arduin Grimoire typo where somebody read "percentage of monster being encountered at lair" as "% in liar"?
JG
You say To-may-to I say To-mah-to...:).
Quote from: James Gillen;552621Yeah, that's why I left, ultimately. If it was still a good place to discuss roleplaying and promote the industry, I could curb my speech, walk away from Tangency and just use the forum for what it was intended for. But roleplaying is no longer what it's about. They don't get that many RPG reviews any more and when I was still following them, those reviews didn't seem to get any comments.
I think that as they allow themselves to be trolled like this for the sake of the correct "sociopolitical agenda", more and more people within the industry will see RPG.net as more a liability to them than an asset. More so than B.T. and his Dave-Sim-without-the-talent ranting here.
JG
Yeah, I would like to see industry people quit advertising there, I saw several mongoose banners while skimming the MongRape thread. BS.
I have half a mind to waste $25 to get a banner ad linked to a 'Down with RPG.net' type deal, or at least linking to other RPG focused sites, like here and RPGgeek, rpghaven.
Focus on the Shitstorm and rpg.net thinks your rapist and morally backward Haterist, or something. Or the simplist, RPG.net = tangency.net
Part of me also wants to start a petition to hound Skotos.net (WHo owns rpg.net these days). Cause, free speech and shit.
Quote from: RobMuadib;552631Yeah, I would like to see industry people quit advertising there, I saw several mongoose banners while skimming the MongRape thread. BS.
I have half a mind to waste $25 to get a banner ad linked to a 'Down with RPG.net' type deal, or at least linking to other RPG focused sites, like here and RPGgeek, rpghaven.
Because a lot of people have pointed out that they'll post ads for stuff that isn't politically correct and is objectionable to the Tangency types.
Crushing dissent or getting ad money? Such a dilemma....
JG
Quote from: RobMuadib;552631I have half a mind to waste $25 to get a banner ad linked to a 'Down with RPG.net'
Bah. I've got half a mind to just buy the rpg.net domain and database outright.
It cannot possibly be a revenue generator for Skotos; offhand I'd guess 5 large would do it.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552508EDIT: Did anyone else notice on Maladicta's petition when it first went up (Might still be misspelled though) she misspelled prostrate? It reads Prostate.
Once, on a 3 hour road trip accompanied only by my iPod, I was digging a song but shook my head because the word prostate was used in place of the word prostrate. It's an unfortunate, but not terribly surprising error. Minutes later, another (unrelated) song used prostrate when it meant prostate. It's the same strange error, but still not as ridiculous as mentioning the prostate gland in a rock song. Hearing it switched both ways during the same drive is what surprised me. I'll PayPal US$1.75 to the first person to correctly guess the two songs. ;)
Quote from: James Gillen;552627A lair? Is that like the Arduin Grimoire typo where somebody read "percentage of monster being encountered at lair" as "% in liar"?
Yeah. The "%LIAR" typo is in the LBB, and was sort of RAW at the time of the first Grimoire.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552251Is it just not possible that she genuinely misread the article?
No. Even when she claimed that she "misread him", she only did so in order to explain that she had only meant to slander him by quoting half a sentence completely out of context.
Like I said earlier in the thread: When your only defense against lying is "I actually meant to lie in a slightly different way", then you don't have any defense against lying.
If Desborough had kept his head and his cool, he could have easily come out of this smelling like roses: Once you've got someone admitting that they deliberately lied in order to slander you, it doesn't take much effort to rise above their mud-slinging.
Unfortunately, he chose to follow her right into the gutter of scumbag behavior. The result is the current morass where everybody is an asshole, which makes it easy for every internet troll and jackass with an agenda to throw whatever light they like on the situation.
Quote from: James Gillen;5526195. Do you speak with a Jamaican accent?
Whadaya mean what kind o' accent is this? IT IS A TROLL ACCENT! Ah Ja- Makin' me crazy!
;)
Quote from: _kent_;552471Maybe you should fuck off then.
The idea that idiot mods involved in any discussion can ban people with opposing views is repulsive.
Only a mod who didn't post in this thread should have considered the ban.
An opposing view to thinking that women are sub-human (along with the blacks and the gays)? Who the fuck here WOULDN'T have an opposing view to that?
But that's not relevant anyways. People don't get banned from this forum for their "views". They get banned here for being disruptive pieces of shit, which BT was in spade. And they only get banned after being given umpteen chances and a much wider margin of patience, patience to rival motherfucking Job, and make it abundantly clear that they just can't stop being disruptive pieces of shit.
Bitch, please. Show me one other significant forum where BT could have kept on posting the kind of shit he did for as long as he did.
RPGPundit
Quote from: One Horse Town;552499I don't think i entirely agree with this statement, but it's becoming pretty clear that some of the most vocal are non-gamers who know only what gamers have posted to get them outraged.
I mean, i've posted a pageful of quotes that glorify rape and mysogyny from Baker and his cronies and not only isn't it being acknowledgeod as such, apparently it's an attempt to derail the thread...
So yeah, looks like this is just about Desborough and these dicks can't see their hypocracy.
Well of course its hypocrisy, that's why they're Swine. They can justify pederastic necrophiliac throat-rape because its "art" and Baker is an "intellectual", and they've been told by the self-styled glitterati that they look to for being told what's fashionable that Baker is avant-garde and a sensitive genius. On the other hand, Mongoose makes games about Conan and Starships, so no matter how utterly flimsy the justification, it must be destroyed in order that fashionably-leftist hipsters can get their groovy-cards punched.
RPGPundit
Quote from: James Gillen;552621Yeah, that's why I left, ultimately. If it was still a good place to discuss roleplaying and promote the industry, I could curb my speech, walk away from Tangency and just use the forum for what it was intended for. But roleplaying is no longer what it's about. They don't get that many RPG reviews any more and when I was still following them, those reviews didn't seem to get any comments.
We now have by far the best reviews sub-forum around. Plus the two most prolific and solicited reviewers around: myself and Davenport.
QuoteI think that as they allow themselves to be trolled like this for the sake of the correct "sociopolitical agenda", more and more people within the industry will see RPG.net as more a liability to them than an asset. More so than B.T. and his Dave-Sim-without-the-talent ranting here.
JG
"Will see"? Perhaps you haven't noticed how many industry guys are coming here nowadays (sometimes even instead of, not just in addition to, there)?
You'll note that when the Redbrick thing happened, the Redbrick guy wrote here, not there.
We've been getting several of those kind of scoops lately.
Oh, and of course, three of the big consultants that WoTC got are frequenters of this site and not the other one, including the owner/operator of this site, yours truly:
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;552660Bitch, please. Show me one other significant forum where BT could have kept on posting the kind of shit he did for as long as he did.
RPGPundit
4chan? :idunno:
Quote from: James Gillen;552621I think that as they allow themselves to be trolled like this for the sake of the correct "sociopolitical agenda", more and more people within the industry will see RPG.net as more a liability to them than an asset.
I think you're giving them too much credit here tbh. Rather than allowing themselves to be trolled, they are actively encouraging it, inciting it themselves, and rather than trolling they see it as a jihad.
The motivations of such mysterious company must neccessarily be obscure, perhaps they feel the ship is sinking anyway, may as well do some GOOD as they mistakenly imagine. Which once again proves the truism, there's nothing more dangerous than someone out to do the world a favour, which is worth a moment's ponder.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552641Bah. I've got half a mind to just buy the rpg.net domain and database outright.
It cannot possibly be a revenue generator for Skotos; offhand I'd guess 5 large would do it.
That's a Kickstarter I'd donate to.
If anyone wants to ask me about any aspect of this clusterfuck I'm willing to give my version of events from my side.
The only places where discussion on this has been relatively sane is here and on 4chan (bizarrely) and 4chan keeps deleting the threads.
Plus, y'know, I can swear here... ;)
Can someone explain what kind of forum and thread 'somethingawful.com' and 'grognards.txt' are without venting, Im looking for clarity?
I noticed them when they put chunks of my blog in their endless thread (why one thread?). Above they are characterised as trolls but they don't often put direct links to blogs/forums instead lifting the text out which seems sly and not very troll-like. Are they a gathering of young sneerers contemptuous of early rpgs? Are they old and jaded turncoats?
Quote from: _kent_;552685Can someone explain what kind of forum and thread 'somethingawful.com' and 'grognards.txt' are without venting, Im looking for clarity?
I noticed them when they put chunks of my blog in their endless thread (why one thread?). Above they are characterised as trolls but they don't often put direct links to blogs/forums instead lifting the text out which seems sly and not very troll-like. Are they a gathering of young sneerers contemptuous of early rpgs? Are they old and jaded turncoats?
My impression is that it's just a place to laugh contemptuously at nerds that this group of nerds don't like. It's trolls and borderline trolls at best I think.
Here comes the rating system posts (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633251-Classification-System-for-RPGs-(Possibly-run-by-RPG-net-and-others)) at the TBP (http://i.imgur.com/HEqrH.jpg). I think I'm going to puke.
I would voice my displeasure but I just got warned/threadbanned a little bit ago by Kai Tave for making fun of myself (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633239-Warning-labels-for-games-if-I-were-in-charge&p=15581652#post15581652) (Reversed by an admin) so I don't even think I'm going to fucking bother. I'll stick to the occasional post over there on games and helping/bullshitting with the actual gamers there and posting here instead.
P.S. it's ok to link to TPB stuff yes?
I already have a ratings system of sorts: There is a content advisory for each product in my catalogue and if you don't like said content you can fuck right off.
Quote from: _kent_;552685Can someone explain what kind of forum and thread 'somethingawful.com' and 'grognards.txt' are without venting, Im looking for clarity?
I noticed them when they put chunks of my blog in their endless thread (why one thread?). Above they are characterised as trolls but they don't often put direct links to blogs/forums instead lifting the text out which seems sly and not very troll-like. Are they a gathering of young sneerers contemptuous of early rpgs? Are they old and jaded turncoats?
A bunch of dorks who feel that their choice of dorky pastimes makes them more enlightened than you.
Oh and you have to pay to post there. Or have a custom avatar. Or do any number of other shit.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552687Here comes the rating system posts (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633251-Classification-System-for-RPGs-(Possibly-run-by-RPG-net-and-others)) at the TBP (http://i.imgur.com/HEqrH.jpg). I think I'm going to puke.
I would voice my displeasure but I just got warned/threadbanned a little bit ago by Kai Tave for making fun of myself (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633239-Warning-labels-for-games-if-I-were-in-charge&p=15581652#post15581652) (Reversed by an admin) so I don't even think I'm going to fucking bother. I'll stick to the occasional post over there on games and helping/bullshitting with the actual gamers there and posting here instead.
P.S. it's ok to link to TPB stuff yes?
Ridiculous.
I could run a game of Black Crusade without all the unpeasant stuff that heretics might feasibly get up to.
Or I could read Matt Ward 40k fluff.
How do we rate Poison'd? :D
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552687Here comes the rating system posts (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633251-Classification-System-for-RPGs-(Possibly-run-by-RPG-net-and-others)) at the TBP (http://i.imgur.com/HEqrH.jpg). I think I'm going to puke.
I would voice my displeasure but I just got warned/threadbanned a little bit ago by Kai Tave for making fun of myself (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633239-Warning-labels-for-games-if-I-were-in-charge&p=15581652#post15581652) (Reversed by an admin) so I don't even think I'm going to fucking bother. I'll stick to the occasional post over there on games and helping/bullshitting with the actual gamers there and posting here instead.
P.S. it's ok to link to TPB stuff yes?
No, it isn't.
This isn't "BitchAboutRPGnet.com" despite what some grudgebearing posters occasionally attempt to paint it as on all sides of the aisle (including locally).
If this issue didn't have broader consequences (albeit stupid ones for all concerned), and a broader reach than simply there, the thread would probably have been closed by now.
And this post doesn't seem to have any relevance to the actual topic of the thread.
Quote from: J Arcane;552700And this post doesn't seem to have any relevance to the actual topic of the thread.
It kinda does though, since it starts out with a reference to the "Rape Culture" argument and goes on to use that to justify a "ratings system" presumably with the blessing of the swine herd. Subtext: if we don't find your work politically correct, we'll poison the entire internet against it with a passive aggressive rating.
A- Adult themes, most games.
XA- Don't buy this.
Basically they are trying to institutionalise the shitstorm.
Quote from: GRIM;552679That's a Kickstarter I'd donate to.
ditto. at least some good has come of this thread, more grats for finally banning BT :hatsoff:
Quote from: John Morrow;552387Not what he said, Benoist, and unless you are turning into an RPGnet trap moderator, you should know that.
Ben has been that since day one. In addition, he trolls almost as hard as BT did, he just doesn't swear when he does it.
Quote from: James Gillen;552621I think that as they allow themselves to be trolled like this for the sake of the correct "sociopolitical agenda", more and more people within the industry will see RPG.net as more a liability to them than an asset.
That train has left the station long ago. Most of the larger companies have no presence (or come in once every month or so to comment on threads about their games) -- the only active participants are start-ups looking to grab some attention, or part-time hobbyists looking to flex their "I'm in the industry" ego-stroke.
But largely, in private correspondence (and increasingly, public as well), and face-to-face gatherings at Conventions, RPGnet is soundly mocked by pretty much everybody in the industry.
Quote from: RobMuadib;552631Yeah, I would like to see industry people quit advertising there, I saw several mongoose banners while skimming the MongRape thread. BS.
Keep in mind that most advertisers there aren't ever dealing with RPGNet directly. They pay for advertising via Ed Healy's Gamerati Advertising Network, which blanket-serves most of the larger sites out there. (See here: http://gamerati.com/ads/ )
Quote from: GMSkarka;552732Keep in mind that most advertisers there aren't ever dealing with RPGNet directly. They pay for advertising via Ed Healy's Gamerati Advertising Network, which blanket-serves most of the larger sites out there. (See here: http://gamerati.com/ads/ )
I was just going to mention that. When I purchase ad runs with Ed, I don't specify which site to host those on. Rather, they are bundled to various sites within the package.
Quote from: GRIM;552680If anyone wants to ask me about any aspect of this clusterfuck I'm willing to give my version of events from my side.
The only places where discussion on this has been relatively sane is here and on 4chan (bizarrely) and 4chan keeps deleting the threads.
Plus, y'know, I can swear here... ;)
Thank you for the opportunity.
I think after an exhausting effort everyone has pretty much sussed out the long and the short of it.
I believe denizens of therpgsite have superiour critical thinking skills...even if emotional maturity can be found lacking...
...I do not exclude myself from this...
//Panjumanju
Quote from: Rum Cove;552522Actually, he wrote "Duh", which could have meant just about anything coming from that guy.
I actually quoted him directly, so not only do I know what he posted, I displayed it for everyone else as well. IMO, the context surrounding his "duh" makes his meaning fairly clear. I stand by my opinion on this issue.
Quote from: Rum Cove;552524Not at all, but if he's the ambassador for this site, it's unfortunate.
If I'm the only one seeing it, so be it.
It seems to me you are, so it perhaps might be more helpful for you to examine your own perceptions rather than pass judgement on Ben's moderating.
Quote from: John Morrow;552561It's generally only a crime if a reasonable person believes that the violence is likely to be carried out and the characteristic of those dismissing or approving of the threats in question is that they don't appear to believe there is any chance of what was being threatened actually happening. If that wasn't the standard, then there are quite a few people who should be in jail that aren't (http://www.rahmfacts.com/facts/08dead.html). Yes, I agree it's wrong whether it's a crime or not, but if they are going to start banning people for expressing a wrong opinion here, I'd like a list of wrong opinions that I need to not express. For all of its faults, RPGnet gives one that courtesy, which is why I've never been banned there, even when I've expressed conservative opinions on Tangency.
Actually no (I'm wrong, see edit below). It's always a crime. It might only be prosecuted if a reasonable person believes that the violence is likely to be carried out, but that's a different issue. Apparently, however, it's not always called "assault" anymore, there are degrees from something like "Verbal intimidation" up to stuff like "Criminal threatening". Plus, this stuff isn't rigidly defined, so it's very much up to the jurisdiction and judge's interpretation. For example, the NC law states:
Quote from: N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-277.1.
Communicating threats. (1999)(a) A person is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor if without lawful authority:
(1) He willfully threatens to physically injure the person or that person's child, sibling, spouse, or dependent or willfully threatens to damage the property of another;
(2) The threat is communicated to the other person, orally, in writing, or by any other means;
(3) The threat is made in a manner and under circumstances which would cause a reasonable person to believe that the threat is likely to be carried out; and
(4) The person threatened believes that the threat will be carried out.
(b) A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor.
Edit: Well hell, my example actually supports your statement John, so I'll stand corrected. However, the tricky part is still how "reasonable person" is defined, and how believable/credible the victim is when they say they believe that the threat will be carried out, which to me translates to how good an attorney the defense can afford to hire.
As for the opinion bit, I believe Pundit answered this already. It's not about opinion but being disruptive in this instance. Honestly, I think you'll know the "wrong opinion" when you see it. Creating a "hostile environment" for either specific poster, or group of posters, has never been tolerated here and has long been known to be one of the few bannable offenses. I seriously don't see how anyone can actually complain about the mod policy here with a straight face. Despite the support for relatively free speech, this place is not a democracy. It boggles my mind that no matter how much of a douchebag the banned person was, there's always someone complaining about them getting banned. My response is "get over it" none of us have guns held to our heads forcing us to read and/or post here. Not liking the policy enforcement? There are plenty of other forums around.
Quote from: GRIM;552686My impression is that it's just a place to laugh contemptuously at nerds that this group of nerds don't like. It's trolls and borderline trolls at best I think.
Quote from: vytzka;552693A bunch of dorks who feel that their choice of dorky pastimes makes them more enlightened than you.
Oh and you have to pay to post there. Or have a custom avatar. Or do any number of other shit.
Taking for granted that they are trollish, do these
grognards.txt guys know alot about games or do they play games? What is their point? What do they like and dislike? Are they 20-somethings rather than 30-somethings? How has that thread lasted since 2002? Gaming is not something you can mock unless you are steeped in it, right?
Quote from: _kent_;552747Taking for granted that they are trollish, do these grognards.txt guys know alot about games or do they play games? What is their point? What do they like and dislike? Are they 20-somethings rather than 30-somethings? How has that thread lasted since 2002? Gaming is not something you can mock unless you are steeped in it, right?
They like 4E. Only 4e. All others are shit. All people who have an opinion of it in the negative, or an opinion in the positive for any other edition or game, are thus "grognards" and worthy only of mockery and trolling.
It is not at all coincidence that the D20 forum on RPGnet is a place of constant festering 4e boosterism wars, because many of the instigators are Goons, some under the same names, some probably under other names.
Quote from: J Arcane;552751They like 4E. Only 4e. All others are shit. All people who have an opinion of it in the negative, or an opinion in the positive for any other edition or game, are thus "grognards" and worthy only of mockery and trolling.
It is not at all coincidence that the D20 forum on RPGnet is a place of constant festering 4e boosterism wars, because many of the instigators are Goons, some under the same names, some probably under other names.
4e, ahh. I haven't spent any time on rpgnet. Is a 'goon' a contributor to grognards.txt?
The more I read of grognards.txt the more they come across as a generation of snot-nosed kids who, resentful of their smarter older brothers whom they never quite understood, were brainwashed at uni into thinking political correctness is hip and they will spend the rest of their lives telling others how behave having been given this licence by cranky ineffectual academics.
Quote from: _kent_;5527634e, ahh. I haven't spent any time on rpgnet. Is a 'goon' a contributor to grognards.txt?
The more I read of grognards.txt the more they come across as snot-nosed kids who, resentful of their smarter older brothers whom they never quite understood, were brainwashed at uni into thinking political correctness is hip and they are the sort who will spend the rest of their lives telling others how they should behave.
Somethingawful's forum users are broadly referred to as "goons". It goes back to SA's history when Lowtax would point people at an "Awful Link of the Day" and tell readers of SA to go check it out, and they'd post in the forum(s) on said site, or spam the guestbook, etc. Unleashing the "goon squad" on them as it were, and the moniker stuck.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552765Somethingawful's forum users are broadly referred to as "goons". It goes back to SA's history when Lowtax would point people at an "Awful Link of the Day" and tell readers of SA to go check it out, and they'd post in the forum(s) on said site, or spam the guestbook, etc. Unleashing the "goon squad" on them as it were, and the moniker stuck.
I'll bet psychologists absolutely love that site.
Quote from: _kent_;5527634e, ahh. I haven't spent any time on rpgnet. Is a 'goon' a contributor to grognards.txt?
The more I read of grognards.txt the more they come across as a generation of snot-nosed kids who, resentful of their smarter older brothers whom they never quite understood, were brainwashed at uni into thinking political correctness is hip and they will spend the rest of their lives telling others how behave having been given this licence by cranky ineffectual academics.
Oh no, oh no.
Goons don't care one whit about political correctness. That they've chosen Grim's blog post as the rally point for the latest swarm is largely coincidence, and the fact that several of their RPGnet-side agents know it's an issue that will push buttons there.
They are trolls, pure and simple. Think of them as a more petulant and less ominous version of Anonymous. The schoolyard bully brigade, to 4chan's faceless sociopathic mass.
This is a site where profligate swearing and accusations of sexual perversion are considered valid points in an argument. A whole gaggle of shits who behave like a 13-year old who's just discovered the word "fuck" and the existence of anime porn.
Quote from: Sigmund;552768I'll bet psychologists absolutely love that site.
It's...interesting, to say the least. The fiction and humor that's posted out on the main page (including the "WTF D&D" section and the now-discontinued but still archived "The Barbarian's Dojo") is generally some great stuff.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552774It's...interesting, to say the least. The fiction and humor that's posted out on the main page (including the "WTF D&D" section and the now-discontinued but still archived "The Barbarian's Dojo") is generally some great stuff.
The site was kind of funny when I was 13, and foul-mouthed reviews of bad porn movies still held shock appeal. It lost it's charm a long time since.
I will say this, though. Paired with a good team of writers, Lowtax himself can actually be pretty funny. His work on Rifftrax was actually pretty good.
What he spawned though, is the original Internet circle of adolescent hell.
Quote from: J Arcane;552773This is a site where profligate swearing and accusations of sexual perversion are considered valid points in an argument. A whole gaggle of shits who behave like a 13-year old who's just discovered the word "fuck" and the existence of anime porn.
Don't you mean "gently caress"? ;)
(For reasons I have yet to ascertain, if you don't have a paid account you can't see swear words in SA's forums - they're bowdlerized with the most ridiculous substitutions: "gently caress" instead of "fuck", "surprise sex" instead of "rape", "making GBS threads" instead of "shit", etc. What this is supposed to accomplish is utterly beyond me.)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552778Don't you mean "gently caress"? ;)
(For reasons I have yet to ascertain, if you don't have a paid account you can't see swear words in SA's forums - they're bowdlerized with the most ridiculous substitutions: "gently caress" instead of "fuck", "surprise sex" instead of "rape", "making GBS threads" instead of "shit", etc. What this is supposed to accomplish is utterly beyond me.)
They are probably under the delusion that it's funny.
Quote from: J Arcane;552777The site was kind of funny when I was 13, and foul-mouthed reviews of bad porn movies still held shock appeal. It lost it's charm a long time since.
I will say this, though. Paired with a good team of writers, Lowtax himself can actually be pretty funny. His work on Rifftrax was actually pretty good.
What he spawned though, is the original Internet circle of adolescent hell.
Zack Parsons' work ("That Insidious Beast", "Instructions For A...", the all-too-brief "Conex@Lambspoke Prison" series, etc.) is just amazingly good horror/sci-fi stuff.
And I agree; Lowtax's work (did you ever listen to his music? Good industrial stuff, although he gave it up a while ago - once upon a time he interviewed JG Thirwell - no BS, no mocking, just a great interview) is really good. He did a front page update recently. Wish he'd do more.
And this slams the door shut on any disagreement to MalaDicta's claim on TBP. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633309-Infraction-for-Sky_-17)-Permanent-Ban)
Quote from: Mod at TBPThere's little place on rpg.net for the accusation that somebody is manufacturing rape threats in order to back out of a petition. As such, you're permabanned.
-Darren MacLennan
If you dispute the veracity of her claims of rape threats, you will be permabanned. The woman has obviously lied about the reasons for starting her petition against Desborough, but her claims of rape threats are above reproach.
Quote from: _kent_;552685Can someone explain what kind of forum and thread 'somethingawful.com' and 'grognards.txt' are without venting, Im looking for clarity?
I noticed them when they put chunks of my blog in their endless thread (why one thread?). Above they are characterised as trolls but they don't often put direct links to blogs/forums instead lifting the text out which seems sly and not very troll-like. Are they a gathering of young sneerers contemptuous of early rpgs? Are they old and jaded turncoats?
It's one thread because they're making fun of old school gamer's or basically any game stuff they don't dig. Which currently falls into -ist gamers that aren't PC, and lulzy, he doesn't like this cause he's old. The rest of the TG forum seems to be pretty usual stuff, a lot like 4chan /tg/. I haven't spent much time reading the rest of the site.
It looks mostly like Ettins & Mors rattus pet thread to gather lulz and feel good about their elfgame superiority. But there is a definite theme of lets get people we don't agree with banned for great justice from like page 1965+ on. I guess the SA mods limit it to one thread so they don't flood the board with their lulz for justice shit.
Given the sick state of some folk, i fully expect that she has recieved them.
The numbers seem staggering though. How many people were even aware of the petition?
Quote from: RPGPundit;552662We now have by far the best reviews sub-forum around. Plus the two most prolific and solicited reviewers around: myself and Davenport.
"Will see"? Perhaps you haven't noticed how many industry guys are coming here nowadays (sometimes even instead of, not just in addition to, there)?
You'll note that when the Redbrick thing happened, the Redbrick guy wrote here, not there.
We've been getting several of those kind of scoops lately.
Oh, and of course, three of the big consultants that WoTC got are frequenters of this site and not the other one, including the owner/operator of this site, yours truly:
RPGPundit
You're right. But then that might be because it's a lot easier to get banned over there (usually after a long process of getting 'zebra'd'), and because contrary to their belief, not everybody here is B.T. ;)
JG
Quote from: One Horse Town;552807The numbers seem staggering though. How many people were even aware of the petition?
Easily somewhere over ten thousand or more, the whole thing has been pretty widespread on Twitter, Facebook and G+, after all.
At my day job, I do stuff like analyze threats. That kind of volume is towards the upper limit of what tends to happen, but it's most def not unheard of. In many cases, it's a smaller number of people who each send multiple threats.
Quote from: Ian Warner;552690I already have a ratings system of sorts: There is a content advisory for each product in my catalogue and if you don't like said content you can fuck right off.
Do not continue to read if you are offended by the following sentence:
"The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog;
what a fuckin' asshole."
Quote from: Kemper Boyd;552810Easily somewhere over ten thousand or more, the whole thing has been pretty widespread on Twitter, Facebook and G+, after all.
This is an OUTRAGE.
People still use G+ ?!
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552812This is an OUTRAGE.
People still use G+ ?!
People EVER used G+??
Quote from: One Horse Town;552807Given the sick state of some folk, i fully expect that she has recieved them.
The numbers seem staggering though. How many people were even aware of the petition?
What is that number of threats she claims to have received?
Quote from: jeff37923;552801And this slams the door shut on any disagreement to MalaDicta's claim on TBP. (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633309-Infraction-for-Sky_-17)-Permanent-Ban)
If you dispute the veracity of her claims of rape threats, you will be permabanned. The woman has obviously lied about the reasons for starting her petition against Desborough, but her claims of rape threats are above reproach.
Well, okay.
Grim has mentioned getting rape threats too earlier. Do you believe his claims?
Unfortunately I've been on the internet too long to believe there's a lower limit to the fuckwittery of some people, so while I agree MalaDicta is a liar, this is likely to be true.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552807Given the sick state of some folk, i fully expect that she has recieved them.
The numbers seem staggering though. How many people were even aware of the petition?
I also believe that she has recieved them, but there is still some reasonable doubt to explore there. This is the problem when you are unscrupulous in your agenda pursuit.
I also wonder how many she recieved before she complained about the rape threats and if the number sharply increased after she complained about them.
Again, not condoning the rape threats, but I have to wonder whether or not this is being inflated or even manufactured in order to bolster MalaDicta's position.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552765Somethingawful's forum users are broadly referred to as "goons". It goes back to SA's history when Lowtax would point people at an "Awful Link of the Day" and tell readers of SA to go check it out, and they'd post in the forum(s) on said site, or spam the guestbook, etc. Unleashing the "goon squad" on them as it were, and the moniker stuck.
OK, I get it now they are a subspecies of an attitude prowling the web. Knowing what somethingawful is has cleared it up.
Quote from: J Arcane;552700No, it isn't.
This isn't "BitchAboutRPGnet.com" despite what some grudgebearing posters occasionally attempt to paint it as on all sides of the aisle (including locally).
If this issue didn't have broader consequences (albeit stupid ones for all concerned), and a broader reach than simply there, the thread would probably have been closed by now.
And this post doesn't seem to have any relevance to the actual topic of the thread.
Well, I think you overstate things there, J, because I think its very relevant: the attempt to turn to bureaucracy to censor and control content, to regulate, to tell people what to think and what to like; these are all symptoms of the diseased thinking of the type of people who create these problems.
When it comes down to it, its all about fashionably-leftist college-hipsters thinking they know best about running everyone else's life.
RPGPundit
Quote from: GRIM;552679That's a Kickstarter I'd donate to.
Unlike the OWS hippies over at TBP, I have a real job and hence I could probably buy all of rpg.net out of this year's vacation fund.
Besides, I have no idea what I'd use for staged rewards: does $20 for "call a mod of your choice a cock with no repercussions" sound about right?
Okay, okay, on topic - as I've said before, I'm not going to take MalaDicta's claims seriously until I see these threats with authenticated provenance, and I stand by my claim that they are not credible in any event. If MalaDicta (or anyone else) wants to claim they are, then I want to see a scan of the completed police report.
See, the real tragedy of all this is that when hysterical activists like MalaDicta[1] lie and extort to try and advance their agenda, they end up making life a lot more difficult for people who really do have a legitimate cause, because the greater society at large starts to suffer credibility and compassion fatigue.
[1] And fuck me if that alias hasn't become ironic as all hell.
Quote from: _kent_;552817OK, I get it now they are a subspecies of an attitude prowling the web. Knowing what somethingawful is has cleared it up.
At least it's truth in labeling.
JG
Quote from: daniel_ream;552820Unlike the OWS hippies over at TBP, I have a real job and hence I could probably buy all of rpg.net out of this year's vacation fund.
Besides, I have no idea what I'd use for staged rewards: does $20 for "call a mod of your choice a cock with no repercussions" sound about right?
The site would be a perpetual money machine. :D
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;552819Well, I think you overstate things there, J, because I think its very relevant: the attempt to turn to bureaucracy to censor and control content, to regulate, to tell people what to think and what to like; these are all symptoms of the diseased thinking of the type of people who create these problems.
When it comes down to it, its all about fashionably-leftist college-hipsters thinking they know best about running everyone else's life.
RPGPundit
Perhaps I do speak out of turn, I just tire of the RPGnet drama. I'm not even entirely sure what this thread is still doing in RPGs. Grimjim's blog is not an RPG, the book at the center of the boycott is not an RPG, nor are any of the bullshit gender politics and drama surrounding this mess.
The point of my remark was an attempt to discourage the thread from becoming another "let's bitch about RPGnet" thread, which we've had more than our quota of lately, largely thanks to dicks like BT.
But I perhaps overstepped my authority as a mere poster in stating such as matter-of-factly as I did.
Quote from: Sigmund;552743As for the opinion bit, I believe Pundit answered this already. It's not about opinion but being disruptive in this instance. Honestly, I think you'll know the "wrong opinion" when you see it. Creating a "hostile environment" for either specific poster, or group of posters, has never been tolerated here and has long been known to be one of the few bannable offenses. I seriously don't see how anyone can actually complain about the mod policy here with a straight face. Despite the support for relatively free speech, this place is not a democracy. It boggles my mind that no matter how much of a douchebag the banned person was, there's always someone complaining about them getting banned. My response is "get over it" none of us have guns held to our heads forcing us to read and/or post here. Not liking the policy enforcement? There are plenty of other forums around.
Yeah, well, after you had a horde of pundit-haters that protested me for banning the guy who was arguing in defense of pedophilia and in favor of human extinction (as in, the extinction of the entire human race), I don't think you should ever be surprised that every single banning on this site ever will likely be met with protest.
The ironic thing is that this time none of the standard anti-pundit crowd are the ones doing the protesting. They found BT so reprehensible to them, not one of them so far has been able to allow even their utter hatred for my person to overcome the bile that they would feel in their mouth at defending BT. They looked at it and said "you know what, this time, its not worth it".
But instead, we got the nervous right-wingers concerned that somehow if I ban BT for being repeatedly expressive about how blacks are literally genetically inferior to whites, that'll somehow mean tomorrow they're going to get banned if they comment somewhere that they're opposed to public-option healthcare or something. I don't know what. I just can't understand this mentality of "This utterly extreme piece of shit that is a stain on humanity self-identifies as my ideology so somehow that means I'm bound to defend him at all costs". I think its fucking retarded when leftists do it with Stalin, Castro or Chavez, and I think its fucking retarded in this case with BT too.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;552829Yeah, well, after you had a horde of pundit-haters that protested me for banning the guy who was arguing in defense of pedophilia and in favor of human extinction (as in, the extinction of the entire human race),
Wait, BT did this? Haha, I had him on ignore for months and months, I was in no way aware he was that around the bend.
QuoteBut instead, we got the nervous right-wingers concerned that somehow if I ban BT for being repeatedly expressive about how blacks are literally genetically inferior to whites, that'll somehow mean tomorrow they're going to get banned if they comment somewhere that they're opposed to public-option healthcare or something. I don't know what. I just can't understand this mentality of "This utterly extreme piece of shit that is a stain on humanity self-identifies as my ideology so somehow that means I'm bound to defend him at all costs". I think its fucking retarded when leftists do it with Stalin, Castro or Chavez, and I think its fucking retarded in this case with BT too.
RPGPundit
As a right-winger I don't give a shit that BT got banned, and I applaud the decision, he was a repugnant fuck-knuckle. (The individual mandate is a crime against the Constitution, QED, but that's for another time. Just putting the boot in, because no, I'm not going to get banned for it if there's anyone here actually laboring under the opinion that what you said regarding it is the truth.)
Quote from: J Arcane;552825Perhaps I do speak out of turn, I just tire of the RPGnet drama. I'm not even entirely sure what this thread is still doing in RPGs. Grimjim's blog is not an RPG, the book at the center of the boycott is not an RPG, nor are any of the bullshit gender politics and drama surrounding this mess.
The point of my remark was an attempt to discourage the thread from becoming another "let's bitch about RPGnet" thread, which we've had more than our quota of lately, largely thanks to dicks like BT.
But I perhaps overstepped my authority as a mere poster in stating such as matter-of-factly as I did.
LOL. I didn't mean to say "you overstepped your bounds" or something like that, just meant to say you're wrong.
It is relevant. It is relevant because a group of mostly non-gaming radicals with an agenda are trying to destroy a gaming company (mongoose), demanding money, and threatening that they and they alone should get to provide a censorial seal on what kind of games can or can't be produced, and who should or shouldn't get to produce them.
If you think that's no big deal, and you'd have no problem with this gang of assholes, who have already proven themselves utterly willing to lie, and utterly unwilling to be reasonable or civil in any way, in order to get what they really want (which is of course POWER over the industry), becoming the guys who decide what content should or should not be allowed to reach your gaming table, then I think you're not seeing the big picture here.
The Swine failed utterly at co-opting gaming with the notion of pseudo-artistry, then they failed utterly at co-opting gaming with the notion of pseudo-intellectualism; it seems like for at least some of the Swine, they're now changing tactic, and will try to co-opt gaming using the notion of pseudo-activism.
RPGPundit
I think many people forget that this issue is VERY MUCH RPG related, because it goes at the core of what the fuck is wrong with the "community" online, on the fashionable 'mature' design bullshit of GRIM's "side" of the argument, on one hand, on the fashionable socialo-femino-fascist pricks' "side" on the other hand, and the way places like SA and RPGnet fit into that whole picture, which ALSO touches on the subject of ongoing edition flamewars, grognards.txt and like threads over the internet, including this board, etc etc.
It's really going at the core of what's wrong with all that shit, IMO, and I feel like people are losing sight of that very important aspect of the clusterfuck. Missing the forest for the trees, in other words.
Quote from: RPGPundit;552836The Swine failed utterly at co-opting gaming with the notion of pseudo-artistry, then they failed utterly at co-opting gaming with the notion of pseudo-intellectualism; it seems like for at least some of the Swine, they're now changing tactic, and will try to co-opt gaming using the notion of pseudo-activism.
I wonder if the steps in the history of Roleplaying Games are not best encapsulated by pesudo-movements?
//Panjumanju
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552834Wait, BT did this? Haha, I had him on ignore for months and months, I was in no way aware he was that around the bend.
No no, I was referring to Walkerp; who was banned here after I said something (I forget what) against the notion of child-rape, and because I had been against it he decided to come out in favor of it (not, I think, because he believes in it, but just because by that point he was so foaming at the mouth with pundit-hatred that well.. he would
defend child abuse just on the basis that I had suggested it was a bad thing). He was also vocally in favor of the extinction of the human race; something he really did appear to believe in, but that might have just been a pretentious act taken to an extreme of showing off how sophisticatedly nihilistic he is or some bullshit like that.
Anyways, the day a shitload of Swine came up to defend walkerp and demand his return after I banned him was the day I realized that every single person I ban, no matter how reasonable the banning, no matter how justifiable, no matter how clear the evidence, no matter how reprehensible the person being banned, was going to have people protesting it.
RPGPundit
Don't tell maladicta or her friends, but in the playtest credits for a certain FFG beta test product called Only War, is the following: "You did babies?!? (then the name of two playtesters, at least one is female)"
Make of that what you will.
Quote from: RPGPundit;552840No no, I was referring to Walkerp; who was banned here after I said something (I forget what) against the notion of child-rape, and because I had been against it he decided to come out in favor of it (not, I think, because he believes in it, but just because by that point he was so foaming at the mouth with pundit-hatred that well.. he would defend child abuse just on the basis that I had suggested it was a bad thing). He was also vocally in favor of the extinction of the human race; something he really did appear to believe in, but that might have just been a pretentious act taken to an extreme of showing off how sophisticatedly nihilistic he is or some bullshit like that.
Anyways, the day a shitload of Swine came up to defend walkerp and demand his return after I banned him was the day I realized that every single person I ban, no matter how reasonable the banning, no matter how justifiable, no matter how clear the evidence, no matter how reprehensible the person being banned, was going to have people protesting it.
RPGPundit
Oh god, the VHEMT* people.
I'm sorry I even created an account at rpghaven now (both here and there, on the same day). Yuck.
Given this place...it is pretty fucking hard to get a ban around here, it's not the anti-Big Throbbing Purple for no reason at all; I mean, BT was clearly
trying to get banned.
*=Voluntary Human Extinction MovemenT.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552843"You did babies?!? (then the name of two playtesters, at least one is female)"
Make of that what you will.
I'm not sure I can even understand it.
Did babies...?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552850I'm not sure I can even understand it.
Did babies...?
Killed them or fucked them, I suppose, as ugly as it sounds.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552820
See, the real tragedy of all this is that when hysterical activists like MalaDicta[1lie and extort to try and advance their agenda, they end up making life a lot more difficult for people who really do have a legitimate cause, because the greater society at large starts to suffer credibility and compassion fatigue.
Exactly. This is a better way of saying what I already said earlier. This is definitely the worst part of this whole fiasco.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552843Don't tell maladicta or her friends, but in the playtest credits for a certain FFG beta test product called Only War, is the following: "You did babies?!? (then the name of two playtesters, at least one is female)"
Make of that what you will.
Actually, it's "You Bid Babies?!?"
Quote from: Benoist;552838I think many people forget that this issue is VERY MUCH RPG related, because it goes at the core of what the fuck is wrong with the "community" online, on the fashionable 'mature' design bullshit of GRIM's "side" of the argument, on one hand, on the fashionable socialo-femino-fascist pricks' "side" on the other hand, and the way places like SA and RPGnet fit into that whole picture, which ALSO touches on the subject of ongoing edition flamewars, grognards.txt and like threads over the internet, including this board, etc etc.
It's really going at the core of what's wrong with all that shit, IMO, and I feel like people are losing sight of that very important aspect of the clusterfuck. Missing the forest for the trees, in other words.
I just don't agree that it's really such a large issue.
I see this as nothing more than another invented controversy, that would never have even flown above radar were it not for the deliberate pot-stirring of certain Goons.
This is nothing more than a massive trolling on the part of SA and Grim combined with the usual reflexive neurosis of the victim mentality, and we're all of us dancing to their tune exactly as planned.
They've successfully made the whole fucking lot of the involved parties look like a bunch of massive twats, which was exactly their goal in the first place, and threads like this only serve to continue their influence.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552854Actually, it's "You Bid Babies?!?"
Indeed. That's embarassing.
Perhaps I should email Mongoose.
Quote from: J Arcane;552857I just don't agree that it's really such a large issue.
I see this as nothing more than another invented controversy, that would never have even flown above radar were it not for the deliberate pot-stirring of certain Goons.
This is nothing more than a massive trolling on the part of SA and Grim combined with the usual reflexive neurosis of the victim mentality, and we're all of us dancing to their tune exactly as planned.
They've successfully made the whole fucking lot of the involved parties look like a bunch of massive twats, which was exactly their goal in the first place, and threads like this only serve to continue their influence.
I think we largely agree, in fact. I think your characterization of what's going on is correct: it is a massive trolling attempt on the part of the goons and people who got attacked then returned the favor like creeps to transform this whole situation into a horrible mess.
I just think that these guys, in general, both sides, are not making any favor to the hobby in general. They are turning all the internet websites they touch into horrible places where people wank endlessly on sick fantasies or indulge in the most fucked up trolling tactics to get away with it time and time again. And it speaks of the moderation of these places, like RPGnet, and ENWorld before it when 4e came out, and all that pseudo politically-correct "no wave, everyone sing kumbaya" bullshit that just serves as a front for these bastards to shove it to whatever game or person they do not like. This is pernicious throughout the online face of the hobby, IMO.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;552859Indeed. That's embarassing.
Perhaps I should email Mongoose.
"What's wrong with you? It's a GAME, dude, it makes it sound all dark and grim and shit. It's cool!"
If THAT is "grimdark", I'll pass, thanks. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Benoist;552862"What's wrong with you? It's a GAME, dude, it makes it sound all dark and grim and shit. It's cool!"
If THAT is "grimdark", I'll pass, thanks. :rolleyes:
Bidding babies? Pah. Anyone can do that. That's passe.
This is 40k. Think bigger.
"I bid the backbreaking labour of an entire generation of a hive city; not merely the exertions of every man, woman and child alive on this day, but also the toils of their children, until the last of the next generation has perished."
That's how you do 40k scale slavery.
Quote from: Benoist;552838on the fashionable 'mature' design bullshit of GRIM's "side" of the argument
None of the products they're quoting are intended to be mature. They're puerile, childish and immature - though I usually work layers into things.
I like a huge range of different themes and 'stuff' when it comes to games. I refuse to pin my flag to any one, particular mast. I'm an indie author purely because I self publish.
I was thinking more of the actual column "Rape is awesome as a plot device" and the type of take on role playing games that presupposes (as a medium akin to telling stories and the like, a "fiction emulator" used by a variety of wanna-bes who would be much better served actually writing fiction for real instead of using the hobby to wank about such topics like they're deep and edgy and shit) which sparked the whole flames with the SA goons in the first place, if I'm not mistaken.
Quote from: RPGPundit;552840Anyways, the day a shitload of Swine came up to defend walkerp and demand his return after I banned him was the day I realized that every single person I ban, no matter how reasonable the banning, no matter how justifiable, no matter how clear the evidence, no matter how reprehensible the person being banned, was going to have people protesting it.
RPGPundit
Skarka's Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Skarka%27s_Law). I was there.
Quote from: Benoist;552870...the type of take on role playing games that presupposes (as a medium akin to telling stories and the like, a "fiction emulator" used by a variety of wanna-bes who would be much better served actually writing fiction for real instead of using the hobby to wank about such topics like they're deep and edgy and shit)...
How many fucking times have I said that very thing, and no one listened?
:)
Well the column wasn't about RPGs in the first place. So... eh... *shrug*
Quote from: GRIM;552877Well the column wasn't about RPGs in the first place. So... eh... *shrug*
I'll take your word for it, James, but I think this blurring of the lines very much exists, nonetheless, and is relevant to the ongoing fiasco unfolding before our eyes, because it's all taking place on RPG forums, calling for boycotts of RPG publishers, and so on, so forth.
Quote from: James Gillen;552823The site would be a perpetual money machine.
I was just thinking of Kickstarter rewards; I hadn't even considered selling indulgences.
Hang on, I need to rerun the numbers on this.
Did anyone see Maladicta's latest post about the friend?
I'm thinking if I get nerdraped five, six, ten, twenty times at a go, I learn to stay the hell away from scifi cons.
Lord Hobie
Quote from: Lord Hobie;552884Did anyone see Maladicta's latest post about the friend?
I'm thinking if I get nerdraped five, six, ten, twenty times at a go, I learn to stay the hell away from scifi cons.
Lord Hobie
Do what now?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552888Do what now?
From MalaDicta:
Okay, you know what? Fuck this.
My friend was assaulted last night. It wasn't the first time this has happened. Hell, it wasn't the fifth. It wasn't even the first time it happened this year. She got away, but she's shaken, and scared, and having flashbacks to all the other times.
The man who assaulted her is a member of the geek community. The guy before that was too - pretty high standing in the local scene. And the guy before that. And the guy before that. This is a problem. The second time I went to a local convention, another nerd stalked and raped me. For months. When I finally got over that and went to another convention, another nerd raped me. When I tried to report it, the whole convention treated it like a joke.
And now, when I try to do something to stem the rampant misogyny that provides an environment in which sexual assaults are so sickeningly normal, I get rape threats non-stop. I haven't slept in a week, because I am waking up every hour and having to clear rape threats out of my inbox. I am averaging between ten and twenty-five an hour. That is a minimum of two-hundred forty rape threats per day on a slow day. I cannot physically stay on the phone with the police long enough to report them all.
So fine. I'm taking down the petition. Because I care about my friend and I want to be there for her, and I don't want to have to worry about some sick fuck attacking her to intimidate me. Because she's had enough pain in her life already.
You want to talk about silencing? This is what silencing looks like.http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?632966-James-Desborough-and-rape-culture&p=15581932#post15581932
-----
Lord Hobie
Quote from: James Gillen;552625Aren't all prostate exams prostrate exams?
JG
I've never had one standing up...
I think MalaDicta needs to stop writing petitions and seek professional help. Because whether that stuff she wrote is true or false, she needs it.
Pretty depressing, either way.
Well I'm glad some people (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633239-Warning-labels-for-games-if-I-were-in-charge) still have a sense of humour on TBP.
Quote from: vytzka;552901I think MalaDicta needs to stop writing petitions and seek professional help. Because whether that stuff she wrote is true or false, she needs it.
Pretty depressing, either way.
OK I got to say something here: I am an actual professional when it comes to rape trauma and the like. I worked with people who were recovering from these forms of abuse in the context of the Canadian Indian Residential Schools. I have actual experience talking with people who have been raped and helping them take some measure of control over what's happened to them, and how to go about healing from there.
Whether she tells the entire truth is neither here nor there. The possibility that even one of those rape experiences is real makes this an extremely serious situation. It would actually explain a lot about her behavior online, on one hand, and I would absolutely advise her to seek help with real life people she can talk to ASAP, on the other. A part of the issue is one of control, to take back who you are and use what you have experienced in a way that heals you, rather than destroys you, afterwards. Everyone's different in the way they deal with their trauma, but one thing is certain: letting it control you, your actions and emotions, to the point where you can't sleep and feel persecuted and powerless in whatever you do is not a good way to go about this.
MalaDicta and her friend need help. Real, professional help, so they can come to terms with whatever happened to them, and gain back control over their own identities and selves from there.
I hope that's ultimately what they do. If MalaDicta is not seeing this post, I hope someone will read it and try to put it as diplomatically to her as possible, because she really needs to understand that what she's doing right now is destroying her from the inside, and that's not good.
Quote from: StormBringer;552872Skarka's Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Skarka%27s_Law). I was there.
I love the fact that even on a wiki definition of a saying
I fucking coined, some twatwaffle has to try to take a shot at me.
While I agree with you, Ben[1], the way she describes the "incidents" just simply doesn't pass my sniff test.
And unfortunately, I've known too many university ARA activists who have never suffered any form of rape[2] but know all too well how to don the mantle of the rape victim and ape the symptoms of PTSD.
As I said, credibility and compassion fatigue. I find it very hard to believe that people - especially the same people - are getting "raped"[2] with the frequency and regularity implied here. It just doesn't match my experience in the community. And ARA activists lying, exaggerating, and faking a history of rape for attention, sympathy and agenda pushing does match my experience.
I simply don't believe anything MalaDicta says about her "rape"[2] experiences any more without independent corroboration.
[1] Stop the fucking presses
[2] One really, really must insist on what the speaker means by "rape" when claims like this come up. Intentional misuse of language is rife in this area.
Quote from: Ian Warner;552902Well I'm glad some people (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?633239-Warning-labels-for-games-if-I-were-in-charge) still have a sense of humour on TBP.
That's the one I got threadbanned in for self-deprecating humor. LOL
On Maladicta's recent post about her friend getting raped.
I'm not sure I really know what to think. It seems very fucking convenient this happens in the middle of all this shit she started, but someone getting raped or molested or even attempted rape is a serious matter and obviously shouldn't be ignored. But I see in the thread she's getting a new round of attention so there's that.
As Benoist said, "MalaDicta and her friend need help. Real, professional help, so they can come to terms with whatever happened to them, and gain back control over their own identities and selves from there."
I can't say for sure she's lying all the way. She does come off as an activist with an agenda, someone who might make up stuff for the sake of winning a battle in the ongoing war she fights, but then again... there might be some truth to what she's saying. At least from her own POV.
I have seen people who have known very traumatic experiences, including actual rape, being affected to such an extent that their whole perception of reality shifts, particularly in their perception of other people and their behavior towards them, which they interpret as potential threats, which affects their feelings of insecurity, paranoia and the like, which then starts a down-spiral to potentially very, very dark places you don't want to reach. From there it's easy for people who are not in their shoes to think they're making stuff up, they're lying, et cetera. I've seen it happen, and it's actually a lot more common than what one would think at first glance.
It is possible that MalaDicta is in such a situation right now. I can't tell for sure, because I have not talked to her, I do not know her, and I know nothing of the events she is talking about. So, in the off chance that there is something, anything to her claims, I am forced to take her declarations seriously, and that's where I tell her: seek some help. Some real help. Start with a rape hotline, ask for pointers. Just talk about your experience, and go from there.
My opinion is that she is overstating some things for effect but if the rape stuff is even half true she needs to seek professional help before she destroys herself.
Quote from: The Traveller;551915Other well respected works also incorporate rape, Shakespeare's Rape of Lucrere for one, whereby Lucrere becomes a political symbol.
Rape of
Lucrece.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552820See, the real tragedy of all this is that when hysterical activists like MalaDicta[1] lie and extort to try and advance their agenda, they end up making life a lot more difficult for people who really do have a legitimate cause, because the greater society at large starts to suffer credibility and compassion fatigue.
Fairly clearly herself and her fellow purplers are in fact
helping rapists. Its really not that much of a logical stretch either. Did I read someone was looking for hush money or something earlier?
On trolling: very often this term is used as a fig leaf when someone has fucked up badly on the internet. LOL gaiz I was trolling, after things have gone so far south they've become north again.
Even if this started out as deliberate trolling, and I haven't seen much evidence to indicate that it did, it doesn't matter, the subsequent dogpile has in reality illustrated the horde of deranged and disturbed people that seem to have invaded the hobby.
I bet this started out when some indoctrinated victim happened to glance at a cheesecake cover on an RPG in a shop window, and thinking, oho, a bastion of rapists, summoned the winged monkeys and went evangelising.
Muppetry of the highest order.
Quote from: FASERIP;552919Rape of Lucrece.
I usually include one or two typos in all my posts so people know I'm not using a spellchecker.
And if your spellchecker doesn't correct "Lucrece", get a better fucking spellchacker.
Quote from: GMSkarka;552904I love the fact that even on a wiki definition of a saying I fucking coined, some twatwaffle has to try to take a shot at me.
Dipshits. Not unexpected, though:
Wikipedia is an editorial warzone, says study (http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/wikipedia-editorial-warzone-says-study-838793)
I don't see topic specific Wikis being too much different.
This whole thing is playing out like the "Dickwolves" thing a couple of years back.
Quote from: Benoist;552911From there it's easy for people who are not in their shoes to think they're making stuff up, they're lying, et cetera. I've seen it happen, and it's actually a lot more common than what one would think at first glance.
I've some significant experience with rape victims myself[1], so I don't disagree with you at all. But I think it's important from a third-party POV to establish what actually happened as distinct from MalaDicta's perceptions, which may or may not be entirely reasonable.
And as cliched as it is, I have actually
met the real-life goody-two-shoes-girl-in-high-school who went to bed with a frat boy in freshman year, regretted it later, and retroactively defined it as rape because in hindsight she didn't really want to have had sex with him. And then went on to become one of the campus' most strident anti-rape activists.
As a generality to which of course there will be individual exceptions, the louder someone from this demographic screeches about rape culture and their experiences being raped, the less likely it is that they've ever actually suffered a violent sexual assault.
If there is any truth to anything MalaDicta has said, then there's a couple of habitual violent sex offenders running around her local gaming community and the police need to be involved, immediately. That's what people ought to be focusing on, because the alleged existence of
real actual criminal rapists deserves a lot more attention than what James wrote on some blog somewhere.
The fast that no one is bothering to do so strongly hints to me that her own supporters don't believe her, either.
[1] Details of which I won't divulge for what I hope are obvious reasons.
Quote from: The Traveller;552922I usually include one or two typos in all my posts so people know I'm not using a spellchecker.
And if your spellchecker doesn't correct "Lucrece", get a better fucking spellchacker.
Irony.
Quote from: J Arcane;552928Irony.
Hear that whooshing sound?
Quote from: GMSkarka;552904I love the fact that even on a wiki definition of a saying I fucking coined, some twatwaffle has to try to take a shot at me.
At least you actually did something to get something named after you like a gymnast or that old high jumper Don Fosbury iirc.:)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;552926This whole thing is playing out like the "Dickwolves" thing a couple of years back.
My god, I just googled the dickwolves thing.
Holy shit.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552933My god, I just googled the dickwolves thing.
Holy shit.
Yeah.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552906It seems very fucking convenient
If you want to talk about convenient, then Levi's sudden u-turn over the fuckedupness of Poison'd after 5 years of defending it is a nice starting point.
Quote from: daniel_ream;552927I've some significant experience with rape victims myself[1], so I don't disagree with you at all. But I think it's important from a third-party POV to establish what actually happened as distinct from MalaDicta's perceptions, which may or may not be entirely reasonable.
No doubt. And I'll make clear myself that I have met people actually faking having been raped for a variety of reasons, going from delusions to getting pressured into it by friends and family and not wanting to "disappoint" to blackmail to even more fucked up reasons than all this, sure. Not everyone claiming to have been raped is ipso facto telling the truth of what really happened to them, if it happened at all.
New poster here. I've been reading RPGsite for a while, ever since it was mentioned in a Trouble Tickets thread on The Big Purple, and Benoist's posts in this thread finally made me decide to sign up. To hear people on TBP talk, you'd think this place was nothing but a bunch of sour grapes losers who couldn't fit in with the k00l kids over there.
Not so.
I still have a TBP account and sometimes read Media Other, TRO, and D20. Tangency? ::shudder:: Just...no. I'm an unabashed card-carrying liberal, but they get up to some stoopid shit in there. If that's liberal, I better find something else to call myself.
One thing I've seen here is people can say what they really think, and if someone's being a dickhead or a liar, you can say so. That's healthy. When the community can't use normal, sane rules to police itself, that's when you get these thousand-message threads about gender in which you've got a shitload of bad faith arguments and people playing pretend.
The Desborough thread is one of the most extreme examples I've seen. I feel pity for any rape victim, and like Benoist said, I hope the woman gets the help she needs. That said, she's done herself no credit whatsoever throughout this entire episode, starting with deliberately misquoting Desborough in the petition. There was enough to disagree with in the article that she had no need to misrepresent him.
Amusing that the g00ns are trolling the hell out of TBP. Should've suspected.
Welcome Laurel. :)
Welcome to RPGSite Laurel.:)
Welcome aboard Laurel!
Embrace the free speech. :)
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552933My god, I just googled the dickwolves thing.
Holy shit.
Wow. That column kind of sums it up. (http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/)
Welcome to the RPG Site, Laurel. :)
Quote from: Benoist;552948Wow. That column kind of sums it up. (http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/)
I was reading the debacle timeline (http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline) one.
Quote from: Lord Hobie;552890When I finally got over that and went to another convention, another nerd raped me. When I tried to report it, the whole convention treated it like a joke.
Where was this convention, in someone's basement? A convention at a hotel or a meeting hall almost always has their own security staff, and they'll sure as hell try to respond seriously to crimes or they'll get fired and the location get it's ass sued off. I absolutely hate to be put in the position of questioning someone's veracity about a crime committed against them...but one nerd raped her "for months"?
If this is indeed true, then her and her friend need to, as Ben said, get some serious help and also tell people what conventions they go to.
Quote from: CRKrueger;552954I absolutely hate to be put in the position of questioning someone's veracity about a crime committed against them...but one nerd raped her "for months"?
The thing is, and I know this may sound like sacrilege, but this is nobody's business the thing she is sharing and they should not be spread around thousands of complete strangers. She needs to get help, clearly, and it is none of our business the accuracy of her claims, the extent of her exaggeration, the details of the ordeal itself, the 'proof' of the emails sent to her, or anything else.
The dead horse is beaten.
The only good to come out of this is perhaps proponents of the big purple, like Laurel, (welcome, Laurel) will wander their way here instead in the wake of the outrageous SHIT STORM (pardon my language, I usually don't partake in allcaps) that is the large gangly series of purple threats empowering or disempowering these claims that are no one's business but her own.
//Panjumanju
Quote from: CRKrueger;552954Where was this convention, in someone's basement? A convention at a hotel or a meeting hall almost always has their own security staff, and they'll sure as hell try to respond seriously to crimes or they'll get fired and the location get it's ass sued off. I absolutely hate to be put in the position of questioning someone's veracity about a crime committed against them...but one nerd raped her "for months"?
If this is indeed true, then her and her friend need to, as Ben said, get some serious help and also tell people what conventions they go to.
Also, a good start would probably be getting off a gaming forum. It makes no sense for someone like this to be reliving it on a forum for fucks sake. That is unless it's simply a "Pay attention to me" type deal which could very well be the case. I have no idea anymore what to think of this woman. Nothing she does makes any sense.
But again, looking back on Ben's earlier post, if indeed she is a victim of rape (At anytime not just these weird stories she drops into forum posts), common sense doesn't have a lot to do with it. There's some emotional shit going on regardless and the girl needs help.
Shit, come to think of it... I need help. Anyone have some spare bourbon?
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552953I was reading the debacle timeline (http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline) one.
Naturally, GRIM had to get involved. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html)
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552963Shit, come to think of it... I need help. Anyone have some spare bourbon?
Sorry. Already drunk it.
Quote from: J Arcane;552964Naturally, GRIM had to get involved. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html)
SIGH. Anything to say about that, GRIM?
Quote from: J Arcane;552964Naturally, GRIM had to get involved. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html)
Wow.
Quote from: J Arcane;552964Naturally, GRIM had to get involved. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html)
I noticed that but didn't want to bring it up and get another smack. :p
And it all comes full circle.
Quote from: One Horse Town;552965Sorry. Already drunk it.
Man, that ain't right.
Quote from: Benoist;552948Wow. That column kind of sums it up. (http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/)
That was so terrible that it crashed my iPad, thrice.
Quote from: Benoist;552948Wow. That column kind of sums it up. (http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/)
Gabe is the big problem apparently. When he's cornered, he gets vicious and defensive. He does have an anxiety condition, but... that's not really an excuse.
They fucked up. Tycho did mention earlier this year that not even he can control Gabe when he gets going, but stuff like the Dickwolves shirt requires a lot of signing off; someone in their office should have realised "no, this is fucking stupid".
Quote from: J Arcane;552964Naturally, GRIM had to get involved. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html)
Classy.
Quote from: GetWrecked;552977That was so terrible that it crashed my iPad, thrice.
Yeah, it choked my craptop too. It's because she has 50000 comments loading instead of keeping it to 10 and letting the user choose to load the rest.
Quote from: Laurel;552942New poster here. I've been reading RPGsite for a while, ever since it was mentioned in a Trouble Tickets thread on The Big Purple, and Benoist's posts in this thread finally made me decide to sign up. To hear people on TBP talk, you'd think this place was nothing but a bunch of sour grapes losers who couldn't fit in with the k00l kids over there.
Not so.
I still have a TBP account and sometimes read Media Other, TRO, and D20. Tangency? ::shudder:: Just...no. I'm an unabashed card-carrying liberal, but they get up to some stoopid shit in there. If that's liberal, I better find something else to call myself.
One thing I've seen here is people can say what they really think, and if someone's being a dickhead or a liar, you can say so. That's healthy. When the community can't use normal, sane rules to police itself, that's when you get these thousand-message threads about gender in which you've got a shitload of bad faith arguments and people playing pretend.
The Desborough thread is one of the most extreme examples I've seen. I feel pity for any rape victim, and like Benoist said, I hope the woman gets the help she needs. That said, she's done herself no credit whatsoever throughout this entire episode, starting with deliberately misquoting Desborough in the petition. There was enough to disagree with in the article that she had no need to misrepresent him.
Amusing that the g00ns are trolling the hell out of TBP. Should've suspected.
Welcome to theRPGsite!
RPGPundit
Hi.
Thought I'd wander over from TBP. All the hypocrisy and hysteria going on is just making me angry - a well-trodden route to getting banned, which I'd prefer to avoid. I don't want to burn my bridges there but apparent moderator hypocrisy and Tangency spilling into the main site has made me think that I need a break from the place.
So, I've been lurking here over the last few days to see what was getting said about Operation Shitstorm. Some interesting perspectives upthread - especially the stuff about orchestrated trolling having a significant part in what's going on. Disgusting if it's true, but it seems to fit the facts as I've seen them. :(
By the way, getting rid of BT makes this place look a lot more appealing. Based on what he said in this thread, and what's been said about his overall demeanor, I don't think I could have joined a site that considered him fit company to keep.
Quote from: GetWrecked;552977That was so terrible that it crashed my iPad, thrice.
Sorry about that. It loaded fine on my laptop.
Welcome to the RPG Site though, GetWrecked. :)
Welcome to RPGSite Mr. Livingstone. And GetWrecked.:)
Yeah it was a good thing he got banned but I really think he did it on purpose for some reason.
Quote from: Al Livingstone;552983Hi.
Hi! Welcome!
GetWrecked too. :D
Welcome Al!
Quote from: Al Livingstone;552983Hi.
Thought I'd wander over from TBP. All the hypocrisy and hysteria going on is just making me angry - a well-trodden route to getting banned, which I'd prefer to avoid. I don't want to burn my bridges there but apparent moderator hypocrisy and Tangency spilling into the main site has made me think that I need a break from the place.
So, I've been lurking here over the last few days to see what was getting said about Operation Shitstorm. Some interesting perspectives upthread - especially the stuff about orchestrated trolling having a significant part in what's going on. Disgusting if it's true, but it seems to fit the facts as I've seen them. :(
By the way, getting rid of BT makes this place look a lot more appealing. Based on what he said in this thread, and what's been said about his overall demeanor, I don't think I could have joined a site that considered him fit company to keep.
Welcome to the RPG Site, Al. Glad you finally decided to join. :)
And yeah, that's definitely a sordid mess. No doubt about it.
Quote from: Al Livingstone;552983By the way, getting rid of BT makes this place look a lot more appealing. Based on what he said in this thread, and what's been said about his overall demeanor, I don't think I could have joined a site that considered him fit company to keep.
I haven't been here that long, so take this for what it's worth. Despite places like SA where their posters like to say that BT is the "poster boy" or "favored son" of this board, I really don't think he was any of that, nor someone "fit to keep".
I looked at it like this. If you are going to set yourself to uphold a principal (free speech), then often that principal must also apply to people you don't agree with, otherwise it no longer becomes a principal. BT said a lot of things and wasn't banned, but that's not because anyone agreed with him. In fact, every time he did say something stupid, he got dogpiled on for doing so.
But apparently according to some folks at TBP and SA, if you don't expressly ban someone for something, that means you support it, regardless if you've expressed explicit condemnation of such behavior anyway. It's a weird way of thinking.
Welcome to theRPGsite Al.
For the record, I never considered BT "fit company to keep", but that's part of the price that comes with making sure this place isn't like Tangency.net; we have to give a broad amount of rope for someone to hang themselves with.
As for the "orchestrated trolling", I agree that its pretty despicable, but on the other hand it sure is paying off for us. If the SA goons are playing the tangency modclique, the end result seems to be that theRPGsite gains new members.
You could almost say they're doing us a public service.
RPGPundit
Quote from: GMSkarka;552904I love the fact that even on a wiki definition of a saying I fucking coined, some twatwaffle has to try to take a shot at me.
LOL! I think you earn that with your shitty attitude 99% of the time, but I still can't help but agree with you.
No worries - I get that freedom of speech has its price. It's not always easy to pay it but the alternative isn't pretty either. BT was just a step too far for my tolerance at the moment.
I just wanted to give an idea of how toxic he came across to an outside perspective. Which isn't actually going to be news to anyone, I guess. No offence intended by the 'fit company' phrasing. I'm going to claim tiredness and not thinking properly before hitting 'submit reply'.
In any case, thanks for the warm welcome. However it's late here and I've got work in the morning, so time for bed methinks.
Quote from: Al Livingstone;553017I just wanted to give an idea of how toxic he came across to an outside perspective. Which isn't actually going to be news to anyone, I guess. No offence intended by the 'fit company' phrasing. I'm going to claim tiredness and not thinking properly before hitting 'submit reply'.
.
You have nothing to apologize for.
Quote from: RPGPundit;552829But instead, we got the nervous right-wingers concerned that somehow if I ban BT for being repeatedly expressive about how blacks are literally genetically inferior to whites, that'll somehow mean tomorrow they're going to get banned if they comment somewhere that they're opposed to public-option healthcare or something. I don't know what. I just can't understand this mentality of "This utterly extreme piece of shit that is a stain on humanity self-identifies as my ideology so somehow that means I'm bound to defend him at all costs".
It would be retarded if that's what I was doing but it isn't
- . As I already pointed out, I questioned the banning of Pseudoephedrine when that happened, despite the fact that he was diametrically opposed to me politically on just about everything and was less than cordial in many of his replies to me. And had I been active here when he was banned, I might have spoken out against Walkerp's ban, too, despite the fact that he had some really asinine opinions about things and we had nothing in common politically. With respect to B.T.'s politics, many of his opinions represented the worst side of the right and (here's a free clue about my motivations) some of the things he said are the types of things I've called in moderators on to pull from conservative message boards, so there are plenty of political opinions he expressed that I don't endorse and have no problem seeing pulled from message boards, when doing so is consistent with the moderation policy. Heck, I've even gotten at least one person banned for expressing overt racism on a conservative message board.
My issues with the banning are, as I've already pretty clearly stated, are (A) the lack of specific and clear warning, (B) consistency with the free speech ideals of the site, (C) he actually contributed to role-playing discussions and did more than merely disrupt conversations, and (D) that you guys can't seem to give a clear and consistent reason for why he was banned for that particular infraction that doesn't rely on misrepresenting what he actually said. I've been alternately told that he was banned for saying something he didn't actually say, for worse things he did in the past that should have gotten him banned, for making a mockery out of the free speech policies, for making the site look bad, for disrupting the site, and (this is a new one in this reply), for being racist.
Why is it so difficult to clearly and consistently state why he was banned unless you either don't really know why he's banned or are embarrassed to explain the real reasons? If it was because he was racist and overtly racist statement are not welcome here (which is what you now seem to be claiming), that makes sense and maybe he should have been banned back when he was making such statements. In the case of Pseudoephedrine, you clearly explained why he was banned, and I dropped my opposition to his banning because of that.
My self-interest in this particular banning, if you insist on focusing on one, has less to do with any political similarity between B.T. and me and more to do with the vague, shifting, and unclear reasons for why he was banned. Given that I've repeatedly been accused of "disrupting" threads (despite the fact that I don't engage in those debates by myself and the same sorts of digressions happen even when I'm not involved), given that some of the people who whine about that are people who have ban-hammers, and given that the guy wielding the ban-hammer in his case has accused me of doing more than B.T. to make him not like this site, yeah I think I have some reason to be concerned by getting whacked by a ban-hammer without warning by a moderator in the same sort of context that led to this particular ban. And given the sheer volume of lawn crapping that goes on here, including from you, no, I really don't think it's all that clear what's considered acceptable or not. What it all seems to boil down to is whether people are liked or not by the popular kids.
So there is my self-interest in wanting a more specific description of what constitutes "site disruption" than a Justice Potter "I know it when I see it", Judge Dredd "I am the Law", or a Ming the Merciless "until such time as I grow weary of it", and that frankly does put a real damper on the idea that I should feel free to speak my mind here without fear of being banned.
And before One Horse Town takes this personally and accuses me of taking a whiz in his Cheerios and ruining the site for him, this is not directed at him personally, I'm not calling for him to be removed as a moderator, and I don't want him to leave this site. I'd have the same concerns no matter who was assigned moderator duties because it's a concern about the nature of power, concern about subjective enforcement, and and a desire for regulatory transparency.
- Do you know what would really improve the quality of discourse on this site? If everyone would stop pretending that the are Sigmund Freud, Jr. and can psychoanalyze people over the internet to determine their true secret motivations, which just happen to be convenient straw men to be knocked down. How about addressing what people actually say instead of what you think they are really saying or wish they were saying? Look at how much of this thread consists of people speculating on the psychology and true motives of various people that they've never met. Look at the amount of text doing the same thing that appears in almost every other thread here. It's an enormous amount of what people sling around here.
Are you a licensed mental health professional? If not, what makes you think you are qualified to psychoanalyze people you've never met based on some comments on the Internet? Did you get a Jr. Psychologist license in a box of Cracker Jacks as a kid and think that qualifies you to practice psychology over the Internet? And if you are a licensed mental health professional, I think it's pretty obvious that you should know better than to try to remotely diagnose the psychology of someone you've never met. This crap is right up there with people self-diagnosing themselves as having Asperger's syndrome and it all boils down to a pretentious ad hominem argument. Another fine legacy of post-modernism, which encouraged people to spend more time navel-gazing about hidden motives rather than what people are actually writing or saying.
Quote from: Al Livingstone;553017No worries - I get that freedom of speech has its price. It's not always easy to pay it but the alternative isn't pretty either. BT was just a step too far for my tolerance at the moment.
I just wanted to give an idea of how toxic he came across to an outside perspective. Which isn't actually going to be news to anyone, I guess. No offence intended by the 'fit company' phrasing. I'm going to claim tiredness and not thinking properly before hitting 'submit reply'.
In any case, thanks for the warm welcome. However it's late here and I've got work in the morning, so time for bed methinks.
It's actually the reason I didn't post when I originally registered either. I'd read through some threads and saw him just out of no where rip someone a new asshole (To be fair there was another guy that I saw doing that. Kolturp or something of that nature) and I thought, "Nope".
But this thread started and I thought "Fuck it". Haven't regretted it.
But BT is gone. Rainbows and puppies for everyone!
Quote from: John Morrow;553024given that some of the people who whine about that are people who have ban-hammers, and given that the guy wielding the ban-hammer in his case has accused me of doing more than B.T. to make him not like this site, yeah I think I have some reason to be concerned by getting whacked by a ban-hammer without warning by a moderator in the same sort of context that led to this particular ban.
Mate, i've said it before and i'll say it again - the only power i have is what the users (and Pundit) gives me.
We've had disagreements. I've said things to you that may have been out of line, and for that i apologise, but, to be brutally honest, if you want to draw equivalences between yourself and B.T. as regards chances of banning, then you're several miles off the reservation.
Quote from: CRKrueger;552954Where was this convention, in someone's basement? A convention at a hotel or a meeting hall almost always has their own security staff, and they'll sure as hell try to respond seriously to crimes or they'll get fired and the location get it's ass sued off.
There are small local conventions that rent a few meeting rooms in a local hotel that don't, in my experience, have significant security staff. I don't have a credibility problem with this claim.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553027We've had disagreements. I've said things to you that may have been out of line, and for that i apologise, but, to be brutally honest, if you want to draw equivalences between yourself and B.T. as regards chances of banning, then you're several miles off the reservation.
That may be the case, but given the amount of complaints that I've had directed toward everything from how I reply and how long my replies are to what I say and how I say it, that have included accusations that would qualify as accusations of "disruption", I don't really have any way of telling how close or far I am, which is my concern. And despite the claims that Pseudoephedrine and B.T. knew they were going to be banned or were asking for it, I got the impression both were surprised by it.
Quote from: John Morrow;553024...a whole bunch of words.
If I may, I'd like to ask a question of you. This is in no way meant snarky or assholish on my side.
I've read the thread you made in Help Desk regarding this issue. The whole thing. You've elaborated your point in that thread and in this one.
Perhaps I'm dense or having a hard time with the walls of text but concisely; What do you want to happen?
BT and Pseudoephedrine to be unbanned?
Some sort of point system ala RPGnet?
A layer of bureaucratic protection so you feel safe posting?
Some long declaration of rules explicitly stating dos and donts? (Seems to me there's already a site that has that)
You just keep stating the same argument and wanting some kind of answer, but in the Help desk thread it seemed you got answers but didn't like them, so you restated it, you'd get an answer, unhappy with that answer too, restate it, ad nauseum.
As I said, perhaps I missed it somewhere in your posts but I don't see what exactly you want out of riding this issue until the wheels fall off.
Can you illuminate me?
Hey guys.
I'm a long time semi-lurker from the big purple... who just can't get over the popcorn inducing threads over there.
Mostly coming over to a place where I can actually talk about my experiences without fear of being silenced just because while I hate Rape and think its a despicable, horrible thing, I have not encountered in my life the systematic frightening every man is waiting to rapes culture that people over there want to say is everywhere.
Seriously, I was security at a convention for years and years. There were some minor reports of groping/sexual harassment, and it was ALWAYS dealt with seriously, and it was always cracked down on as hard as we possibly could.
This idea that all cons are scary scary rape machines with staff that condone it is just ludicrous.
Quote from: John Morrow;553031There are small local conventions that rent a few meeting rooms in a local hotel that don't, in my experience, have significant security staff. I don't have a credibility problem with this claim.
I'm not sure what relevance the significance (or otherwise) of a convention's security staff has to a rape investigation. Any report of rape would be investigated by police. The convention staff are irrelevant (except, perhaps, as witnesses).
Also, what circumstances would give rise to a situation where "the whole convention" treated an accusation of rape "like a joke"?
Quote from: Dodger;553040I'm not sure what relevance the significance (or otherwise) of a convention's security staff has to a rape investigation. Any report of rape would be investigated by police. The convention staff are irrelevant (except, perhaps, as witnesses).
Convention security staff (along with hotel/convention venue security) are generally the first people there and are the ones calling police, and we will detain someone until the police get there (at least at the con I staffed at).
We are generally grabbed because we are closer, though at the con I staff at we do have 2-3 cops the con pays to hang around too.
Also, we have radios and can do an organized search for anyone who is reported.
The worst I've remembered having to respond to at the con I worked security at was someone getting groped, which went out over security radio with a description, we caught the guy, sat him in a small little room and got a cop to have a "nice" little chat with him. Then he was carted off in a patrol car and we never heard about it again.
We also banned him from the con permanently.
Welcome to the RPG Site Emperor Norton. Feel free to speak your mind. :)
Welcome Emperor Norton!
:cheerleader:
Quote from: Benoist;553044Welcome to the RPG Site Emperor Norton. Feel free to speak your mind. :)
I honestly know no other way to communicate.
I get accused of somewhat lacking a filter at times aha.
I by no means want to belittle the situation, and I agree rape is one of the most horrifying things you can do to someone (my wife is a survivor).
But I gotta ask. If you're getting raped every time you go to a con, why are you still going? There is nothing, NOTHING that would be worth the trade off of getting raped. Especially if it's happened several times. That makes no sense to me. Gary Gygax could rise from the dead offering autographs from the inside of Bucho's cellblock, but I ain't gonna go if I know that every other time I went I got assaulted.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553048I honestly know no other way to communicate.
I get accused of somewhat lacking a filter at times aha.
Well, that makes two of us, I suppose. ;)
As long as you're ready to see the shit hit the fan occasionally, because some other loud-mouths might not always agree and may, likewise, lack the filter as you say, you're going to be fine. Welcome again.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553048I get accused of somewhat lacking a filter at times aha.
That shouldn't be a problem around here, you douchebag.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;553050I by no means want to belittle the situation, and I agree rape is one of the most horrifying things you can do to someone (my wife is a survivor).
But I gotta ask. If you're getting raped every time you go to a con, why are you still going? There is nothing, NOTHING that would be worth the trade off of getting raped. Especially if it's happened several times. That makes no sense to me. Gary Gygax could rise from the dead offering autographs from the inside of Bucho's cellblock, but I ain't gonna go if I know that every other time I went I got assaulted.
Absolutely. I can't get this. If you are getting raped repeatedly at every con... why the hell would you go after like, the second time?
I mean the first time its like "well that was fucked up but surely this isn't normal". After that you just start to wonder.
(and yeah, I'm ok with people yelling at me for being a moron. I am a moron sometimes, and half the time I'll yell back before I realize it. And hell, sometimes the other guy is just a moron and he is wrong about me being a moron. Its part of the idea of free speech. We can yell at each other and still shake hands and walk away at the end.)
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553039Hey guys.
I'm a long time semi-lurker from the big purple... who just can't get over the popcorn inducing threads over there.
Mostly coming over to a place where I can actually talk about my experiences without fear of being silenced just because while I hate Rape and think its a despicable, horrible thing, I have not encountered in my life the systematic frightening every man is waiting to rapes culture that people over there want to say is everywhere.
Seriously, I was security at a convention for years and years. There were some minor reports of groping/sexual harassment, and it was ALWAYS dealt with seriously, and it was always cracked down on as hard as we possibly could.
This idea that all cons are scary scary rape machines with staff that condone it is just ludicrous.
Welcome to theRPGsite!
And I do agree, its ludicrous. It reminds me of the kind of nonsense and counter-productive fabrication and word-manipulation you'd hear from the worst excesses of second-wave feminism in the 70s and early 80s. Its one step from Andrea Dworkin, its just missing someone claiming that "All heterosexual intercourse is rape".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553043Convention security staff... blah blah blah...
All irrelevant to this discussion.
Notwithstanding how inflated an opinion a convention's security staff have of themselves, reports of serious crimes like rape are investigated by police. Therefore, the significance (or otherwise) of a covention's security staff has zero impact on whether a rape allegation is taken seriously because it is the police who do the actual investigating. Even if there were zero convention security staff, a report of rape would still be investigated.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553061its just missing someone claiming that "All heterosexual intercourse is rape".
One of them was hellbent on trying to convince me that a) she was a scientist and b) all unborn babies are parasites. Is that close enough?
The only wonder is that I lasted as log as I did.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553038Perhaps I'm dense or having a hard time with the walls of text but concisely; What do you want to happen?
BT and Pseudoephedrine to be unbanned?
Some sort of point system ala RPGnet?
A layer of bureaucratic protection so you feel safe posting?
Some long declaration of rules explicitly stating dos and donts? (Seems to me there's already a site that has that)
I wanted B.T. and Pseudoephedrine to be unbanned (though I understand why both were banned and don't entirely disagree with either one), people not to get banned without a clear warning (e.g., continue doing/saying X and you will get banned), and clearer guidelines on on what will get one banned.
Yes, I'm well aware that RPGnet already has "bureaucratic protection" and a long declaration of specific rules and I've pointed out that I've managed to discuss political topics against the grain there (e.g., supporting Sarah Palin on Tangency fairly recently) without getting myself banned because I know where the lines are. I'm not looking for the
same very rigid lines that RPGnet has nor am I necessarily looking for lines quite that specific, but I'd like something a little more clear than "disruption", which could mean just about anything.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553038You just keep stating the same argument and wanting some kind of answer, but in the Help desk thread it seemed you got answers but didn't like them, so you restated it, you'd get an answer, unhappy with that answer too, restate it, ad nauseum.
No, I keep restating my opinion because people keep mischaracterizing my opinion, drawing incorrect conclusions about what I'm saying (as you did above), and because the reasons why B.T. got banned are still changing. Rather than engage in idle speculation about the psychological motivations for why people have had trouble giving me a clear and consistent answer on why B.T. was banned at that particular moment and don't seem willing to address the inherent conflict between, "Speak your mind here, without fear!" and banning someone for expressing when he expressed an opinion a moderator didn't like (and which has been mischaracterized by the moderators), I'm trying to get to the bottom of what they really mean. When the answers stop shifting around, maybe I'll have gotten there.
When RPGPundit explained exactly why Pseudoephedrine was banned, it was crisp, clear, consistent, and understandable so I dropped my objections.
Quote from: Dodger;553068All irrelevant to this discussion.
Notwithstanding how inflated an opinion a convention's security staff have of themselves, reports of serious crimes like rape are investigated by police. Therefore, the significance (or otherwise) of a covention's security staff has zero impact on whether a rape allegation is taken seriously because it is the police who do the actual investigating. Even if there were zero convention security staff, a report of rape would still be investigated.
Yes, it is investigated by police. I think their point was that if the staff don't treat it seriously, then would the police?
People see other people in authority as just that, authority, even if in reality they have very little. Its why when I worked security at a con I could tell people to come with me, even though, legally they could just walk away from me and I couldn't do anything about it (other than grab a cop if the reason I was telling them to come with me was illegal, such as theft/sexual assault).
Basically if person X in authority isn't taking it seriously, then why would person Y in authority.
Its faulty thinking, but psychologically, I can see why it happens.
(the other point I was making still stands though: I have, never, ever seen a con staff not take sexual assault/harassment lightly)
For the record, Morrow, while I've agreed with you on some of the things you've said around here, and disagreed with other things you've said around here, you've never even come up on the radar as someone who comes even close to being considered for banning. If you ever did, unless you did it by say suddenly and with no prior warning signs start to post hardcore porn images or something, you'd also know it well beforehand; almost no one here has ever been banned without it being pretty clear it was a long time coming.
So if all of this is really about a sense of personal insecurity, as I've already tried to make clear with you before, there's really no relation whatsoever between you and BT.
RPGPundit
Quote from: John Morrow;553071When the answers stop shifting around, maybe I'll have gotten there.
If you could get there in your helpdesk thread rather than here that would be great.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553078For the record, Morrow, while I've agreed with you on some of the things you've said around here, and disagreed with other things you've said around here, you've never even come up on the radar as someone who comes even close to being considered for banning. If you ever did, unless you did it by say suddenly and with no prior warning signs start to post hardcore porn images or something, you'd also know it well beforehand; almost no one here has ever been banned without it being pretty clear it was a long time coming.
So if all of this is really about a sense of personal insecurity, as I've already tried to make clear with you before, there's really no relation whatsoever between you and BT.
It's not simply about personal insecurity, but this addresses that concern.
Quote from: The Traveller;553079If you could get there in your helpdesk thread rather than here that would be great.
If people stop replying here and move their replies over there, I'd be more than happy to.
Quote from: John Morrow;553035That may be the case, but given the amount of complaints that I've had directed toward everything from how I reply and how long my replies are to what I say and how I say it, that have included accusations that would qualify as accusations of "disruption", I don't really have any way of telling how close or far I am, which is my concern. And despite the claims that Pseudoephedrine and B.T. knew they were going to be banned or were asking for it, I got the impression both were surprised by it.
I second this impression as I'm often accused of trolling and being disruptive, often by a moderator. Currently I'm of the opinion that the only way I've avoided being banned up to now is due to the short visits I make, and the long breaks between them.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553076Yes, it is investigated by police. I think their point was that if the staff don't treat it seriously, then would the police?
Hmmm. Let's imagine that scenario for a moment.
The police turn up at a convention venue to investigate a report of a rape. The convention's security staff tell the police that they don't take the rape allegation seriously. Do the police:
a) continue their investigation regardless, or
b) drop the investigation, head back to the precinct and cut the victim loose with an warning about wasting police time?
Answers on a postcard, please!
Quote from: Dodger;553087Hmmm. Let's imagine that scenario for a moment.
The police turn up at a convention venue to investigate a report of a rape. The convention's security staff tell the police that they don't take the rape allegation seriously. Do the police:
a) continue their investigation regardless, or
b) drop the investigation, head back to the precinct and cut the victim loose with an warning about wasting police time?
Answers on a postcard, please!
Awesome job ignoring the rest of my post.
I even ADMITTED that it was stupid. Jesus christ.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553091Awesome job ignoring the rest of my post.
I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I merely chose not to quote it because I have a policy of not wasting bandwidth on irrelevant inanity.
The fact that the average con-goer fails to realise that members of the convention's security staff have about as much authority as a queue-control stanchion has no bearing whatsoever on whether the police would drop an investigation into a serious crime because the convention's security staff did not take the allegation seriously. Amongst the many reasons for this are the facts that the police:
- are not 14-year old geeks who lack the wits or balls to tell some jumped up mall-cop wannabe who's ordering them about to go fuck himself,
- are, by and large, professionals with at least some training in the law and, therefore,
- are cognizant of the fact that convention security staff do not, in fact, have the authority to call off rape investigations.
Now, I appreciate that you're new here but if this is indicative of the quality of contribution that we can expect from you, please feel free to fuck off right back to TBP because this is a place for grown-ups and the sort of incoherent, ill-considered, childish, pointless drivel that you can get away with over there, simply won't wash here.
PS: Welcome to theRPGsite! :)
Quote from: Dodger;553100I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I merely chose not to quote it because I have a policy of not wasting bandwidth on irrelevant inanity.
The fact that the average con-goer fails to realise that members of the convention's security staff have about as much authority as a queue-control stanchion has no bearing whatsoever on whether the police would drop an investigation into a serious crime because the convention's security staff did not take the allegation seriously.
I never said it did. I said that the perception is a psychological correlation that people make that is DUMB, but its there.
Its incredibly faulty thinking to think that the cops wouldn't take it seriously just because con staff didn't. That doesn't stop people from thinking it, and I was pointing out WHY they think that, even though I disagree with it, and think it is ignorant as hell.
So fuck off yourself.
PS: Thanks for the welcome
Good thread. Good site. Will visit again.
I got linked to RPGnet (which I was already aware of, but wasn't a regular reader) and the Desborough/Mongoose debacle and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Then I found out that goons were involved and it all came together.
This is a typical goon rush. SA used to be a very different kind of place. It was much more an 'anything goes' humor forum once upon a time. The batshit crazy cultural Marxists chased off all the creators of OC or anyone with a sense of humor (as has been pointed out time and again by comedians, humor is routed in transgression which is something SA can't tolerate being a bunch of overly politically correct dickwads). Organizing such a thing is ostensibly banned, but the place has become so monocultural that posting a link over the latest outrage results in a goon rush.
You can see some of the ironic relic of the SA of old in Grognards.txt in them decrying the unacceptability of any and all rape jokes under any circumstances while their word filter simultaneously makes a rape joke by changing 'rape' into 'surprise sex'.
The same exact people who turned SA into a far-left hugbox and drove away content creators will do the exact same thing to RPGnet and anywhere else they get a foothold. The TG subforum's own creative output is truly embarrassing: http://shii.org/knows/Zybourne_Clock.
Terms like 'goony' or 'goon fiction' are becoming memetic and goons easily identifiable to outsiders as the hugbox squeezes tighter every year and the bizarre, twisted view of the world that goons possess becomes more insulated from the reality that most of us inhabit. People reading over at RPGnet can smell something ripe even though they aren't (or weren't) in the know about Somethingawful, or if they know about the site they know it by its' former reputation and not as the platform for political activism that it has become.
I think anyone can agree these days that cops are going to investigate allegations of rape (unless it's from a prostitute in which case frequently NHI still applies), however, you're missing something here Dodger. Supposedly the victim did not report the crime to the police. Instead the Convention staff was alerted and they did nothing (or rather treated it as a joke). So if the victim or the convention staff she told do not contact the police, what makes you think the police get involved to begin with? They don't, and the crime goes unreported.
So, you're arguing something that you, yourself, admit is stupid, dumb, faulty thinking and ignorant as hell.
What the fuck is your point?
Did you give even a micro-second's consideration to the topic in hand here or did you simply copy'n'paste some irrelevant drivel that you'd already posted on TBP across to here?
Are you anything more than a waste of oxygen and a negative influence on this forum's signal to noise ratio right now?
Quote from: Dodger;553106So, you're arguing something that you, yourself, admit is stupid, dumb, faulty thinking and ignorant as hell.
I don't have to agree with something or believe it myself to understand why other people do.
What is with your hostility, bro?
Where are all the newbies coming from? Did someone link to us on rpg.net or something? Or is it just that a bunch of you knew of this place but didn't think to take the plunge until now.
I really wish more people would actually figure out that they're better off posting here to begin with, rather than trying to continue hanging out over there when they undoubtedly know what the atmosphere there is like.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;553108Where are all the newbies coming from? Did someone link to us on rpg.net or something? Or is it just that a bunch of you knew of this place but didn't think to take the plunge until now.
I saw a link to here in the long running popcorn inducing conversation that is this whole Desborough goon rush thing. Not on RPG.net, somewhere else, can't remember where off the top of my head. I hadn't heard of this place before then.
No idea why the other people are coming over now.
*Edit, fuck it, not worth it
Quote from: CRKrueger;553103I think anyone can agree these days that cops are going to investigate allegations of rape (unless it's from a prostitute in which case frequently NHI still applies), however, you're missing something here Dodger. Supposedly the victim did not report the crime to the police. Instead the Convention staff was alerted and they did nothing (or rather treated it as a joke). So if the victim or the convention staff she told do not contact the police, what makes you think the police get involved to begin with? They don't, and the crime goes unreported.
Well then, setting aside for the time-being the veracity of what you've described, let's think
this scenario through.
A girl is raped at a convention. Does she:
(a) call the police, or
(b) report it to the convention staff?
If (b), do the convention staff:
(a) call the police, or
(b) treat it as a joke?
If (b), does the victim (upon realising that the convention staff aren't taking her seriously):
(a) call the police, or
(b) drop the matter and instead post about it in an online forum?
Three (b)s stretches credibility a bit far, don't you think?
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553107What is with your hostility, bro?
I dislike trolls.
@Dodger, it really is a stretch, no joke. I'm not going to argue with you there.
I think part of the problem though is the rape culture screeching harpies themselves though. They are the ones that yell so much about how "NO ONE WILL BELIEVE YOU AND THEY WILL ALL BLAME YOU" so the moment any one person conforms to this, the victim could suffer confirmation bias of what they've been told by "feminist"s and they could shut down and not talk about it anymore.
If people weren't constantly told no one would believe them by the people who are supposedly trying to help, maybe they would talk until they found someone who was sane.
EDIT: Wait, how am I a troll? Because I was trying to explain why some people believe stupid things? That sure is a low threshold for troll.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;553102Good thread. Good site. Will visit again.
I got linked to RPGnet (which I was already aware of, but wasn't a regular reader) and the Desborough/Mongoose debacle and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Then I found out that goons were involved and it all came together.
This is a typical goon rush. SA used to be a very different kind of place. It was much more an 'anything goes' humor forum once upon a time. The batshit crazy cultural Marxists chased off all the creators of OC or anyone with a sense of humor (as has been pointed out time and again by comedians, humor is routed in transgression which is something SA can't tolerate being a bunch of overly politically correct dickwads). Organizing such a thing is ostensibly banned, but the place has become so monocultural that posting a link over the latest outrage results in a goon rush.
You can see some of the ironic relic of the SA of old in Grognards.txt in them decrying the unacceptability of any and all rape jokes under any circumstances while their word filter simultaneously makes a rape joke by changing 'rape' into 'surprise sex'.
The same exact people who turned SA into a far-left hugbox and drove away content creators will do the exact same thing to RPGnet and anywhere else they get a foothold. The TG subforum's own creative output is truly embarrassing: http://shii.org/knows/Zybourne_Clock.
Terms like 'goony' or 'goon fiction' are becoming memetic and goons easily identifiable to outsiders as the hugbox squeezes tighter every year and the bizarre, twisted view of the world that goons possess becomes more insulated from the reality that most of us inhabit. People reading over at RPGnet can smell something ripe even though they aren't (or weren't) in the know about Somethingawful, or if they know about the site they know it by its' former reputation and not as the platform for political activism that it has become.
Welcome Richard. Is that okay to call you Rich, or do you prefer something else?
*Edit, fuck it, not worth it
Part of the problem is that we don't know squat about the circumstances of whatever happened at the conventions she went to that make her cry rape. It is very puzzling though that she would keep going back for more hurt after a couple of those awful experiences at worst.
There is always the possibility of a deeply stubborn take on this, limit masochistic in nature by saying "you know what? That horrible stuff happened to me, I am NOT going to let it stop me and I'm going to WIN over this, dammit", but it's honestly hard to believe it happened five times with her still even visiting gaming boards without fear of crossing paths online with her rapists. But you never know, right? I mean, it's a huuuge stretch, and quite twisted psychologically if that's the case, but there IS a possibility that is in fact exactly what's happening to her.
Quote from: Benoist;553119Welcome Richard. Is that okay to call you Rich, or do you prefer something else?
Thanks for the welcome, and I don't care what you call me. That's not my real name.
For people expressing incredulity that MalaDicta has been raped frequently at cons, do keep in mind what I said earlier about pinning the accuser down on their definition of "rape". One need not go as far as the "all heterosexual intercourse is rape" hyperbole to stretch the definition beyond all recognition. Campus feminist organizations often define any form of undesired physical contact as "rape", up to an including entirely voluntary at the time sexual intercourse that upon reflection and morning sobriety turns out to have been a less than stellar choice. (Making no distinction between a frat boy slipping roofies to his date and a freshman tossing shots down her gullet her own self until she's humping anything insight is a common tactic).
When most people hear the word "rape" they think of violent forcible penetrative assault; organizations with agendas know this and deliberately redefine the word so they can get the kind of kneejerk emotional responses and support one would expect. This, btw, is the source of that "1 in 4 women have been raped" propaganda tidbit (http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html) she tried to use as moral suasion on Matt Sprange.
So, I'll amend my opinion of MalaDicta: I'll concede that it's entirely possible she's been "raped" more than once at a con, if we allow her to redefine the word "rape" to suit her agenda.
Sacrosanct: You have my sympathies. I understand what you're going through. Stay strong.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553108Where are all the newbies coming from? Did someone link to us on rpg.net or something? Or is it just that a bunch of you knew of this place but didn't think to take the plunge until now.
I really wish more people would actually figure out that they're better off posting here to begin with, rather than trying to continue hanging out over there when they undoubtedly know what the atmosphere there is like.
RPGPundit
Well for my part I mostly lurk, and only part time. That being the case the mod situation over on TBP wasn't entirely clear to me. This whole situation over the past few days has really been eye opening. The mod agenda has been pretty blatant, particularly from Kai Tave, and that changes my view of what goes on over there. It makes me wonder what I've been missing due to mod intervention.
That's actually what I am suspecting Daniel: that she either defines rape in a way that is much broader than the forceful penetration (oral, vaginal, anal) we usually think of when using this word, or that her perception of physical contact with other human beings has been enormously damaged by some trauma which may very well have been actual rape some time prior to the point she sees assaults in circumstances we might not understand. Those are the two most likely possibilities I see, assuming she believes everything she's revealed so far.
Hey, thanks for the welcome, everyone. I appreciate that.
In re: the question about newbies, I first started reading theRPGsite when marleycat and someone else (can't remember who) got in trouble, must've been a few months back. The Trouble Tickets discussion mentioned the Pundit and this site, and something seemed off about it, so I decided to make up my own mind instead of taking their word for it.
(FWIW, the "Laurel" on TBP is not me. I use a different name there, but this one several places.)
Why today? Like I said earlier, I thought this thread had good things going on, and I particularly liked what Benoist had to say.
The discussion on TBP may well be the biggest trainwreck I've seen there, a high bar to reach. I know the hobby has a high percentage of men, but I've never seen real life discussions on gender and sexism and women's issues with so few women participating. Over there, the inmates are running the asylum, and sane women have learned to steer clear of the shouting matches on gender issues. I feel sorry for the well-meaning guys who wander into those threads and get shouted down by the frequent flamers and the people who are arguing in bad faith and/or lying about themselves. I think it can give guys a really skewed impression of what women are like.
I can't speak for all women, natch, but that stuff? Those positions about feminism and what women expect from and think of men? Those stories of how women are treated and how they live their lives? WAY off. But you don't get actual sane women participating in the discussion very often because a) they get shouted down or b) they take one look at teh crazy and back off.
The infamous '1 in 4' statistic relies on questionnaire answers where any time a woman felt socially pressured into sex, that it qualifies as rape. This despite the fact that it is pretty common for either partner in a relationship to occasionally feel the 'duty' to 'perform' in the bedroom to make someone they love happy and that most people would neither define this as rape or consider themselves to be a 'victim' when so pressured.
The idea that you can be 'raped' (unless you are male) by social pressure by someone you would eagerly have sex with most of the time, but will only unenthusiastically do so right now, is completely delusional. Even more so when you consider that basically everyone that promotes these 'rape culture' ideas supports state intervention into the lives of these 'rape victims' against their will to punish their boyfriends and husbands, which would emphatically not be in the best interest of either party.
The majority of 'rape victims' in the study in question itself do not agree that they were raped and neither would most members of society. The sheer number of rapes to reach a conclusion where 1 in 4 females matriculating through college will be raped relies entirely upon women who were 'raped' by their boyfriends over and over again. That is most 'rape victims' in the study were women who were getting 'raped' half a dozen time by the same 'perpetrator'.
So the real statistic is that something like 1 in 10 college aged females will have routinely unsatisfactory yet completely consensual sex with their boyfriends; which is a much more believable conclusion.
Quote from: gleichman;553086I second this impression as I'm often accused of trolling and being disruptive, often by a moderator. Currently I'm of the opinion that the only way I've avoided being banned up to now is due to the short visits I make, and the long breaks between them.
If only we could increase those breaks, things would be just about perfect.
Quote from: Laurel;553139I can't speak for all women, natch, but that stuff? Those positions about feminism and what women expect from and think of men? Those stories of how women are treated and how they live their lives? WAY off. But you don't get actual sane women participating in the discussion very often because a) they get shouted down or b) they take one look at teh crazy and back off.
My wife avoids the conversations about stuff like this like the plague.
Apparently, because she isn't afraid of men, she is just "delusional".
Quote from: Laurel;553139Hey, thanks for the welcome, everyone. I appreciate that.
In re: the question about newbies, I first started reading theRPGsite when marleycat and someone else (can't remember who) got in trouble, must've been a few months back. The Trouble Tickets discussion mentioned the Pundit and this site, and something seemed off about it, so I decided to make up my own mind instead of taking their word for it.
(FWIW, the "Laurel" on TBP is not me. I use a different name there, but this one several places.)
Why today? Like I said earlier, I thought this thread had good things going on, and I particularly liked what Benoist had to say.
The discussion on TBP may well be the biggest trainwreck I've seen there, a high bar to reach. I know the hobby has a high percentage of men, but I've never seen real life discussions on gender and sexism and women's issues with so few women participating. Over there, the inmates are running the asylum, and sane women have learned to steer clear of the shouting matches on gender issues. I feel sorry for the well-meaning guys who wander into those threads and get shouted down by the frequent flamers and the people who are arguing in bad faith and/or lying about themselves. I think it can give guys a really skewed impression of what women are like.
I can't speak for all women, natch, but that stuff? Those positions about feminism and what women expect from and think of men? Those stories of how women are treated and how they live their lives? WAY off. But you don't get actual sane women participating in the discussion very often because a) they get shouted down or b) they take one look at teh crazy and back off.
You're so right about those threads being all men most sane women over there are staying a million miles away. The thread in TT you reference Is when Kai tried to zebra me and label me a troll when all I was doing was defending myself from the dogpile.
@Ben, I think you're on to something.
Quote from: Dodger;553113Three (b)s stretches credibility a bit far, don't you think?
You don't have to convince me, I'm the one who brought it up to begin with. Just pointing out that just because the police supposedly did nothing doesn't mean they dropped the ball.
Quote from: Laurel;553139I can't speak for all women, natch, but that stuff? Those positions about feminism and what women expect from and think of men? Those stories of how women are treated and how they live their lives? WAY off. But you don't get actual sane women participating in the discussion very often because a) they get shouted down or b) they take one look at teh crazy and back off.
Quote from: Marleycat;553144You're so right about those threads being all men most sane women over there are staying a million miles away. The thread in TT you reference IA when Kai tried to zebra me and label me a troll when all I was doing was defending myself from the dogpile.
You know a really friendly place for that stuff?
The Citadel of Chaos.
(
Ok, that's a lie, I don't even really have an off-topic section.)
Yeah, that was it, marleycat. Definitely a WTF for me.
I don't think I'd go to cons anymore if I got raped or even groped at one, at least not without a crew of scary looking guy friends around me. I don't get the continuing to go back and it happening again and again part.
I've heard stories of bad shit going on at cons, but for whatever reason, none of it's ever happened where I could see it. I go places in the con hotel by myself, like the dealer room when my friends still have a game going on, and I don't feel scared or stalked. I even went to one of the biggest cons by myself one year and had a blast.
I don't think I'm all that intimidating or anything, just kind of average.
Quote from: Laurel;553151Yeah, that was it, marleycat. Definitely a WTF for me.
I don't think I'd go to cons anymore if I got raped or even groped at one, at least not without a crew of scary looking guy friends around me. I don't get the continuing to go back and it happening again and again part.
I've heard stories of bad shit going on at cons, but for whatever reason, none of it's ever happened where I could see it. I go places in the con hotel by myself, like the dealer room when my friends still have a game going on, and I don't feel scared or stalked. I even went to one of the biggest cons by myself one year and had a blast.
I don't think I'm all that intimidating or anything, just kind of average.
Bingo, that's why I think she's overstated things and outright lying in places and mixing it enough to fool the well meaning people. Whenever I go to a con my circle of guys are with me. It's dumb to be alone in a sea of strangers, especially mostly guys. I'm a bit more careful because of the leg braces and crutches make me more an easy target for real predators.
Quote from: StormBringer;553148You know a really friendly place for that stuff?
The Citadel of Chaos.
(Ok, that's a lie, I don't even really have an off-topic section.)
I will retry seeing if my signup works tomorrow Stormie. I promise.
Did MalaDicta actually name the conventions where these events would have occurred?
Quote from: Benoist;553156Did MalaDicta actually name the conventions where these events would have occurred?
All I ever saw that she said was "Cons all across North America".
Man. I know I'm repeating myself but... that's a hell of a clusterfuck at this point.
Quite so.
But for some reason I just can't stop reading it. Just morbid curiosity keeps me going.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553157All I ever saw that she said was "Cons all across North America".
How conveniently ambiguous.
This is not over. Something's gotta give, at some point.
Quote from: Benoist;553163This is not over. Something's gotta give, at some point.
Personally I just stay in the D20 subforum and here given they are most sane places right now. If for different reasons. :)
Er, just jumping in. I am usually on that other site and only lurk, but it has been so toxic and as another person said, it is an eye opener what type of mods on that place. I was in the thread like everybody else trying to figure out wtf was going on. Here is what I wrote:
QuoteI have been really busy these months and did not know anything about this till now. I am still in the dark about a lot of whats going on and only got the gist of it. Here is a question, the petition is worded: "Steve Jackson Games: Stop publishing James Desborough, rape supporter.". Isn't that opening up the accuser to a host of potential legal problems? It seem very clear that its at LEAST Defamation of character? If he loses a job or potential money, she could be in a heap of trouble legally and financially if he chooses to pursue this through legal action. As far as I know, he never supported rape and even said its a horrible thing. He did say its a valid use in fictional settings (or something like that) which in no way supports rape. That's like saying, well, if you use killing and/or torture in a fictional setting in any way, you support killing and torture. Still, I only know the gist of whats going on and I will not go through a gazillion pages to get more. Anyway, just curious about the legal hoopla which will probably happen sooner or later.
Then Kai Tave went a little heavy handed:
QuoteOkay, this? This needs to not be a thing. We have reached the point now where people are coming into this discussion having not read what has gone before in this thread and its immediate predecessor and as a result are rehashing questions that have already been asked and engaging in arguments that have already been, well, argued. And in many cases there have been clarifications, amendments, and answers provided that would address these matters...and those have happened in the thread.
Yes, it's long. Yes, there are a lot of posts. Yes, it's a lot of reading and some of it is full of people being rude to one another and saying things that may incite you to whip off a reply right this second. But don't. Don't do that. I am going to say this up-front and as plainly as I can...from this point forward, anybody who wishes to participate in this thread who has not already been doing so is going to have to demonstrate a good faith effort on their behalf to have read up on the matter themselves before they begin posting in it. Anybody who comes into this thread from this point on and says something to the effect of "Well I haven't read the thread, but..." or "That's a lot of posts I don't want to go through, but..." will be banned from the thread, because otherwise this is simply going to turn into an endless series of posters coming in, asking questions that have already been answered, and other posters growing increasingly short-tempered as the same explanations and answers have to be repeated again and again.
I'm sorry if this seems unfair, but there has been a lot of good discussion that has gone into these threads and it does both yourself and your fellow posters a disservice to ignore it. We're happy to keep this thread going, but only provided that it doesn't start eating its own tail. Thank you.
I SAID I got the gist! However, the way they were banning anybody who even said anything they did not like, so I kept my mouth shut. :( Someone mentioned this place and so I checked it out and it seems WAY more rational over here.
Sorry, had to vent a bit, but was afraid to do it over there or I might get banned.
Quote from: Marleycat;553155I will retry seeing if my signup works tomorrow Stormie. I promise.
I have to do some recruitment stuff occasionally in order to justify the tab for the web hosting. :)
No, it's cool Badmojo. We know what's going on with the moderation at RPGnet, and I'm glad you found this place to vent your troubles and continue the conversation here instead.
Have a look around, participate to the RPG conversations as well by all means, and I hope you'll decide to stick around in the end.
Welcome.
Quote from: Benoist;553169No, it's cool Badmojo. We know what's going on with the moderation at RPGnet, and I'm glad you found this place to vent your troubles and continue the conversation here instead.
Welcome.
Thank you :)
Quote from: Laurel;552942New poster here. I've been reading RPGsite for a while, ever since it was mentioned in a Trouble Tickets thread on The Big Purple, and Benoist's posts in this thread finally made me decide to sign up. To hear people on TBP talk, you'd think this place was nothing but a bunch of sour grapes losers who couldn't fit in with the k00l kids over there.
Not so.
I still have a TBP account and sometimes read Media Other, TRO, and D20. Tangency? ::shudder:: Just...no. I'm an unabashed card-carrying liberal, but they get up to some stoopid shit in there. If that's liberal, I better find something else to call myself.
One thing I've seen here is people can say what they really think, and if someone's being a dickhead or a liar, you can say so. That's healthy. When the community can't use normal, sane rules to police itself, that's when you get these thousand-message threads about gender in which you've got a shitload of bad faith arguments and people playing pretend.
The Desborough thread is one of the most extreme examples I've seen. I feel pity for any rape victim, and like Benoist said, I hope the woman gets the help she needs. That said, she's done herself no credit whatsoever throughout this entire episode, starting with deliberately misquoting Desborough in the petition. There was enough to disagree with in the article that she had no need to misrepresent him.
Amusing that the g00ns are trolling the hell out of TBP. Should've suspected.
Welcome and Thanks for Playing!
JG
Quote from: Sinister Brain;552933My god, I just googled the dickwolves thing.
Holy shit.
...exactly how does one get "raped to sleep", anyway?
JG
Quote from: Sacrosanct;552992I haven't been here that long, so take this for what it's worth. Despite places like SA where their posters like to say that BT is the "poster boy" or "favored son" of this board, I really don't think he was any of that, nor someone "fit to keep".
I looked at it like this. If you are going to set yourself to uphold a principal (free speech), then often that principal must also apply to people you don't agree with, otherwise it no longer becomes a principal. BT said a lot of things and wasn't banned, but that's not because anyone agreed with him. In fact, every time he did say something stupid, he got dogpiled on for doing so.
But apparently according to some folks at TBP and SA, if you don't expressly ban someone for something, that means you support it, regardless if you've expressed explicit condemnation of such behavior anyway. It's a weird way of thinking.
The same people who scold you for making an argument of the excluded middle. ;)
JG
Quote from: Badmojo7;553165However, the way they were banning anybody who even said anything they did not like
Darren made it clear in one of the TT threads that official RPGnet policy is that 'rape culture' is a thing. So if you aren't a dyed in the wool, Marxist-inspired 2nd wave+ feminist that buys into the whole patriarchy/kyriarchy explanation for all social ills then you are officially guilty of being uncivil and derailing for questioning it.
The related 'rape at conventions' threads has now descended into an out-progressivism contest (because everyone else is banned and they are eating their own) where the posters are trying to one-up each other about their lack of socially constructed privilege in real life which should grant them greater epistemic privilege on the Internet.
Quote from: RPGPundit;552993Welcome to theRPGsite Al.
For the record, I never considered BT "fit company to keep", but that's part of the price that comes with making sure this place isn't like Tangency.net; we have to give a broad amount of rope for someone to hang themselves with.
That guy gave himself enough rope to rig the
USS Constitution.QuoteAs for the "orchestrated trolling", I agree that its pretty despicable, but on the other hand it sure is paying off for us. If the SA goons are playing the tangency modclique, the end result seems to be that theRPGsite gains new members.
You could almost say they're doing us a public service.
RPGPundit
Yet more proof that "Operation Shitstorm" is where RPG.net didn't just jump the shark, it jumped
Jaws,
Jaws 2 and
Jaws: Michael Caine Needs a New Summer Home.JG
Quote from: Badmojo7;553165Someone mentioned this place and so I checked it out and it seems WAY more rational over here.
That is no way to make a good first impression around here. You keep levelling accusations of
rationality, and I will be forced to bring out the heavy sarcasm.
Regarding Defamation of Character suits, I wouldn't be surprised if Jim isn't wealthy enough to waste money on the lawsuit, especially as he might have to file in the US, and I believe he lives in the UK. Even if he won, the odds of him getting any money out of it (after lawyers) is pretty slim. The mods are probably counting on that, and consider him a "safe" target. I would laugh my ass off if Mongoose got pissed enough to file suit on his behalf, though.
Quote from: Benoist;552966SIGH. Anything to say about that, GRIM?
Nobody was thinking about the poor Dickwolf in all this.
I regard that whole debacle as another example of stupidity. The original comic from which it all stems had the root of its humour in the very point the outrage brigade were making. That rape (and other nasty stuff) ends up trivialised in games such as WoW because... hey, already completed the quest so why should I help you?
I lend support where I see people being shat on and have no regrets.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553061Welcome to theRPGsite!
And I do agree, its ludicrous. It reminds me of the kind of nonsense and counter-productive fabrication and word-manipulation you'd hear from the worst excesses of second-wave feminism in the 70s and early 80s. Its one step from Andrea Dworkin, its just missing someone claiming that "All heterosexual intercourse is rape".
RPGPundit
Makes as much sense to me as "property is theft".
JG
Quote from: danbuter;553183Regarding Defamation of Character suits, I wouldn't be surprised if Jim isn't wealthy enough to waste money on the lawsuit, especially as he might have to file in the US, and I believe he lives in the UK. Even if he won, the odds of him getting any money out of it (after lawyers) is pretty slim.
I'm not wealthy by any means but I have had more than one offer of help and a suggestion of going with a pro bono lawyer and assigning any settlement to a rape shelter or similar in Winnipeg.
That one is almost tempting, but...
I have no wish to screw up this girl's life, even if she apparently wishes to screw up mine. I don't think any good purpose is served by legal action.
Quote from: GRIM;553184Nobody was thinking about the poor Dickwolf in all this.
I regard that whole debacle as another example of stupidity. The original comic from which it all stems had the root of its humour in the very point the outrage brigade were making. That rape (and other nasty stuff) ends up trivialised in games such as WoW because... hey, already completed the quest so why should I help you?
I lend support where I see people being shat on and have no regrets.
I don't recall any dickwolves or rape camps in WoW but I do remember a minor shitstorm on RPG.net from one exec's comments at the last BlizzCon.
JG
Quote from: Dodger;553106So, you're arguing something that you, yourself, admit is stupid, dumb, faulty thinking and ignorant as hell.
What the fuck is your point?
Did you give even a micro-second's consideration to the topic in hand here or did you simply copy'n'paste some irrelevant drivel that you'd already posted on TBP across to here?
Are you anything more than a waste of oxygen and a negative influence on this forum's signal to noise ratio right now?
"Oh! No, you want the Argument Room. This is Abuse!"
Quote from: James Gillen;553187I don't recall any dickwolves or rape camps in WoW but I do remember a minor shitstorm on RPG.net from one exec's comments at the last BlizzCon.
JG
Perhaps its just my 'insensitivity' talking, but exaggeration for comedic effect is pretty common and the idea of a 'dickwolf' is pretty damn funny. Much as with the decade-old works people are criticising people seem to be upset because they've taken something purely at face value rather than making the effort to understand it.
I'm not going to comment on Ms Cooper's most recent comments because whatever I say will be taken the wrong way, deliberately.
Quote from: Laurel;553139eck I've seen there, a high bar to reach. I know the hobby has a high percentage of men, but I've never seen real life discussions on gender and sexism and women's issues with so few women participating. Over there, the inmates are running the asylum, and sane women have learned to steer clear of the shouting matches on gender issues. I feel sorry for the well-meaning guys who wander into those threads and get shouted down by the frequent flamers and the people who are arguing in bad faith and/or lying about themselves. I think it can give guys a really skewed impression of what women are like.
It's probably like what nonwhite gamers feel when RPG.net talks about race.
JG
Quote from: Badmojo7;553165Er, just jumping in. I am usually on that other site and only lurk, but it has been so toxic and as another person said, it is an eye opener what type of mods on that place. I was in the thread like everybody else trying to figure out wtf was going on.
Then Kai Tave went a little heavy handed:
I SAID I got the gist! However, the way they were banning anybody who even said anything they did not like, so I kept my mouth shut. :( Someone mentioned this place and so I checked it out and it seems WAY more rational over here.
Sorry, had to vent a bit, but was afraid to do it over there or I might get banned.
To the man with the banhammer, everyone looks like a nail.
And welcome to The RPGSite!
JG
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;553125Thanks for the welcome, and I don't care what you call me. That's not my real name.
For some reason I didn't think it was.
JG
I have to say, the number of bans in the Infraction Forum is skyrocketing over the last few days. Several very cool posters are banned now. Hopefully, they find their way here.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;553178The related 'rape at conventions' threads has now descended into an out-progressivism contest (because everyone else is banned and they are eating their own) where the posters are trying to one-up each other about their lack of socially constructed privilege in real life which should grant them greater epistemic privilege on the Internet.
Speaking of crazy out-progressivism, this one made me boggle... Guy is posting is version of an alternate history that would avoid WWII being fought, you know a thread for your ideas for an alternate history where WWII wouldn't occur. He got perma-banned... for... wait for it..
Administrative Note:
Message to User:
Stalinist revisionism is no more welcome on these boards than Nazi apologism.
QuoteOriginal Post:
To make WWII to not happen world needed different outcome for WWI. Firsthand - economical, then political. More or less in historical order, planetary-wide mind control included:
Wealthy Imperial Japan state peacefully buys concessions in divided China and weak and corrupted Korean state instead of military agression and annexation. Feudal clans competes in economical struggle instead of dividing to cold-war like competition of The Army and The Fleet. Chinese and korean warbands supported by different manufacturers (Here goes cyberpunk proxy wars, hundred years ahead of schedule)
Germany never robbed dry after the end of WWI by victorious side. War veterans could hope to get more or less decent work instead of forming illegal warbands for wealthy politicians. Revolts of 1919 never goes to armoured cars and flamethrowers stage of development.
Poland agression vs USSR in 1919 never happens, or Curzon line drawn when offered, not 20 years later after the collapse of nationalistic Poland government and two decades of genocide and starvation of western ukrainians and belorussians conquered by Poland.
USA is never to induce prohibition laws, but magically induce new set of economical regulations, greatly reducing organized crime and economical fallout of Great Depression.
Soviet idea of "export of revolution" supressed by conservative wing ruled by Stalin much faster and way more effective. Leon Trozkiy and his clique left to China, "the one and only true revolutionary state" to keep their adrenaline addiction at desired level.
Italian agression in Africa stopped by third powers at early stages, native ethiopian government never exiled.
War in Spain halted by international peacekeeping forces instead of warming up by same forces. Temporary military cooperation actually works good enough to be turned into permanent.
France and GB never support Munich Agreements (because Munich 1938 is already not meant to happen in such timeline)
Colonial system degrades and mostly ruined decades ahead of schedule. Parade of independencies gives plenty of opportunities for economical struggle in third world instead of military conflicts.
Fall Weiss left to rot in military archives - german politicians are too busy competing with french-masonic plutocrats and kommie mongolian-jews over rights to build largest hydroelectric dam to be ever built in Egypt.
Quote from: robmuadib;553201speaking of crazy out-progressivism, this one made me boggle... Guy is posting is version of an alternate history that would avoid wwii being fought, you know a thread for your ideas for an alternate history where wwii wouldn't occur. He got perma-banned... For... Wait for it..
Administrative note:
Message to user:
Stalinist revisionism is no more welcome on these boards than nazi apologism.
wow 0_0
Quote from: StormBringer;553148You know a really friendly place for that stuff?
The Citadel of Chaos.
(Ok, that's a lie, I don't even really have an off-topic section.)
This is looking a bit too blatantly like off-topic shilling, dude.
RPGPundit
Well, to be fair, that does read like stalinist revisionism, right up to and including outright slanderous anti-polish propaganda (right, because it was the Poles, and not Stalin, who starved millions of Ukranians to death).
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;553207Well, to be fair, that does read like stalinist revisionism, right up to and including outright slanderous anti-polish propaganda (right, because it was the Poles, and not Stalin, who starved millions of Ukranians to death).
RPGPundit
I still consider it to be disingenuous to harp on Stalinist revisionism in a, by definition, alternate fabricated revisionist history.
I'm fuzzy on the intricacies of communist infighting, but why be a Stalinist if you're not going to believe the revolution should be exported?
Anyway it seems like a lot to infer from an alternate-history setup, he may have gotten that part from some other source he wasn't critical enough of. The instaban looks pretty ridiculous.
Quote from: RobMuadib;553209I still consider it to be disingenuous to harp on Stalinist revisionism in a, by definition, alternate fabricated revisionist history.
Sure, fair enough. I don't know the context of the link; frankly, tangency crap is all bullshit anyways. I know that here, for example, if a guy posted an "alternate history setting" like that and it was obvious he was interested in talking about its gaming possibilities, it would stand; but if instead it became obvious that the whole thing was just a facade in order for him to go on and on about the glories of Mother Russia under stalin or talk about how evil the Poles or the "trotskyite jews" were, I'd close the thread, and warn the guy not to spread off-topic bullshit under the thin veneer of gaming.
But then, on tangency.net, every single thread is "off-topic bullshit under the thin veneer of gaming".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Imp;553210I'm fuzzy on the intricacies of communist infighting, but why be a Stalinist if you're not going to believe the revolution should be exported?
One of the major differences between Lenin/Trotsky and Stalin was that the former believed that communist revolution had to be a worldwide phenomenon, the revolution had to be exported and communism had to be international, or the revolution would ultimately fail in Russia as well. Stalinism, on the other hand, was basically a Russian Nationalist movement which only cared about global communism inasmuch as it served Russia.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553117I think part of the problem though is the rape culture screeching harpies themselves though. They are the ones that yell so much about how "NO ONE WILL BELIEVE YOU AND THEY WILL ALL BLAME YOU" so the moment any one person conforms to this, the victim could suffer confirmation bias of what they've been told by "feminist"s and they could shut down and not talk about it anymore.
Which in fact helps actual rapists immensely.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553133When most people hear the word "rape" they think of violent forcible penetrative assault; organizations with agendas know this and deliberately redefine the word so they can get the kind of kneejerk emotional responses and support one would expect.
Highly ironic for a group that complains about the trivialisation of rape to broaden the definition of the word until it becomes meaningless.
Quote from: danbuter;553183Regarding Defamation of Character suits, I wouldn't be surprised if Jim isn't wealthy enough to waste money on the lawsuit, especially as he might have to file in the US, and I believe he lives in the UK. Even if he won, the odds of him getting any money out of it (after lawyers) is pretty slim. The mods are probably counting on that, and consider him a "safe" target. I would laugh my ass off if Mongoose got pissed enough to file suit on his behalf, though.
Mongoose can't afford it either. They are down to maybe half a dozen full time members of staff (a big drop from when they kept six or more full time authors on the paycheck in addition to the core editorial/layout/proofing staff they barely maintain now) and times are very, very lean. When Matt replied to MalaDicta that her defamatory petition would hurt or possibly collapse his business he was not exaggerating. The stigma associated with the word rape is good reason to worry that a significant part of his customer and/or distribution base was going to be lost. As it is, his apparent capitulation to strong-arm activism has cost him long term customers anyway.
He was damned if he kept quiet, or damned if he didn't.
Either way, the deliberately worded petition did not only placed half a dozen people's livelihoods at risk, but also threatened the gaming world with the loss of an RPG company and
all the games it provided. Loss of licence revenue aside, MM might not mind if the Mongoose Traveller line vanished out of existence now that T5 is finished, but I'm sure there's a lot of fans out there who'd resent the loss of MgT. Likewise for Legend, Lone Wolf, Paranoia and all the other games that Mongoose manages to support.
Now I Mongoose and I may have parted ways, but that does not mean I'm happy to see a small gaming company seriously harmed due to publishing 3 or 4 books of questionable humour out of the literal
hundreds of other books and games they've produced over the last decade. Nor am I particularly happy about the manner in which it was orchestrated, with a blind-side attack.
I dread to think what sort of Pandora's Box has been opened here. Do we really want to force authors into the path of self-censorship to protect their professional reputations from mob censure? Is this the first step towards publishers refusing any manuscript submitted with broo, vampires, alien xeno-morphs, puerile humour, off-colour parody? Because after any incidence of Rape is excised from RPG's what will be the next morally borderline thing publishers feel pressured into dropping?
Roleplaying games are escapism. They are also almost all based to some degree upon overcoming adversity or defeating injustice. If you take all the bad stuff out of RPGs according to an ever shifting, ever evolving set of social conventions then guess what... there won't be any RPGs any more.
Quote from: Ladybird;552815Unfortunately I've been on the internet too long to believe there's a lower limit to the fuckwittery of some people, so while I agree MalaDicta is a liar, this is likely to be true.
That was my assumption, too. But she's notably changed her story on the rape threats: First, she said they started when Mongoose posted their poll and then stopped when that poll was removed. But now she's claiming that they never stopped and have actually grown to hundreds per day.
Combined with the credibility issues she's created for herself by making verifiable and self-admitted lies, I have to admit I'm personally finding it difficult to take anything Maladicta says without a huge grain of salt.
Quote from: Benoist;553124Part of the problem is that we don't know squat about the circumstances of whatever happened at the conventions she went to that make her cry rape. It is very puzzling though that she would keep going back for more hurt after a couple of those awful experiences at worst.
Complicating this situation is that it's bog standard practice at this point for misogynist trolls to question the credibility of any rape claim in a feminist discussion on the internet. (See the "dickwolves debacle" referenced earlier.)
With that being said, I find no credibility in a self-admitted liar making unverifiable claims about events at unnamed conventions involving anonymous people. Not that it really matters, because those claims are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand even if they are true.
i think this thread should be closed. I see a lot of boys getting off on thinking they are discussing 'rape' as if they were grown-ups. Its rubber-necking of the highest order.
The only issue in this mess that could profitably be discussed is whether or not there is something immoral or corrupting about roleplaying through vile actions as part of a game where evil and wickedness have a strong presence but most gamers lack the emotional maturity and artistic insight for that kind of debate.
Instead the majority of gamers are so immature and so dumb that the discussion is about real life rape and rape threats, sniffing and lingering about the topic like unsavoury voyeurs. There is nothing to discuss about real-life rape just as I can't think of any context in which the following statement ever needs to made. No-one EVER needs to say they are 'against the notion of child-rape'.
Quote from: RPGPundit;552840... I said something (I forget what) against the notion of child-rape ...
A hearty welcome to all the new guys and gals!
I hope you all stick around and get into the gaming discussions. :)
Quote from: James Gillen;553189"Oh! No, you want the Argument Room. This is Abuse!"
I'm not going to dignify that with a response as it is a well-known fact that people with yellow smiley-face avatars are billy-goat-fearing douchebags.
Quote from: GRIM;553184Nobody was thinking about the poor Dickwolf in all this.
:rolleyes:
QuoteI regard that whole debacle as another example of stupidity. The original comic from which it all stems had the root of its humour in the very point the outrage brigade were making. That rape (and other nasty stuff) ends up trivialised in games such as WoW because... hey, already completed the quest so why should I help you?
I lend support where I see people being shat on and have no regrets.
Sure. So your support to the side being unfairly accused of playing games about rapemonsters and promoting rape was... to create a rapemonster.
Quote from: Ladybird;553230Sure. So your support to the side being unfairly accused of playing games about rapemonsters and promoting rape was... to create a rapemonster.
At which point his side could be fairly accused of playing games about rapemonsters?
I mean... it sort of makes sense.
Quote from: Ladybird;553230:rolleyes:
Sure. So your support to the side being unfairly accused of playing games about rapemonsters and promoting rape was... to create a rapemonster.
Yep. The whole thing is ridiculous and anyone taking it seriously looked ridiculous. More material to make them look ridiculous.
Quote from: GRIM;553233Yep. The whole thing is ridiculous and anyone taking it seriously looked ridiculous. More material to make them look ridiculous.
And does "anyone taking it seriously" cover people who feel the need to produce an actual rapemonster?
I mean, that's some work you've put into it. That sort of thing doesn't just get written up by accident. You've put real effort into producing the actual thing they were alleging exists.
"You play games featuring rapemonsters!"
"No we don't! I've only just created the rapemonster: here it is! Rapey enough for ya, eh?"
Quote from: Ladybird;553234And does "anyone taking it seriously" cover people who feel the need to produce an actual rapemonster?
I mean, that's some work you've put into it. That sort of thing doesn't just get written up by accident. You've put real effort into producing the actual thing they were alleging exists.
"You play games featuring rapemonsters!"
"No we don't! I've only just created the rapemonster: here it is! Rapey enough for ya, eh?"
Now why would you think that would entail me taking it seriously? More to illustrate how pointless and stupid the whole idea is. I get the feeling you may be taking this too seriously.
Quote from: GRIM;553235Now why would you think that would entail me taking it seriously?
This. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html)
You evidently took the incident seriously enough to put in, what, an hour's work? Or did you trip, bang your head on the keyboard, and a rapemonster just accidentally fell onto your livejournal?
Quote from: Ladybird;553237This. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html)
You evidently took the incident seriously enough to put in, what, an hour's work? Or did you trip, bang your head on the keyboard, and a rapemonster just accidentally fell onto your livejournal?
I take censorship and mob hysteria seriously.
Making fun of things is... humour.
That's surely not a difficult thing to grasp is it?
Oh wait, this whole fuss... apparently it is.
For humour to be effective it must be humerous.
One minute you're all Nine Inch Nails (or Johnny Cash, if you prefer) and the next minute you're all Snoop Dog.
I bow to the wisdom of J Arcane. He called it way back.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553204This is looking a bit too blatantly like off-topic shilling, dude.
RPGPundit
I dunno about off-topic, but I will cop to the shilling part. Lesson learned.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553247For humour to be effective it must be humerous.
One minute you're all Nine Inch Nails (or Johnny Cash, if you prefer) and the next minute you're all Snoop Dog.
I bow to the wisdom of J Arcane. He called it way back.
Senses of humour differ.
Quote from: John Morrow;553024My issues with the banning are, as I've already pretty clearly stated, are (A) the lack of specific and clear warning, (B) consistency with the free speech ideals of the site, (C) he actually contributed to role-playing discussions and did more than merely disrupt conversations, and (D) that you guys can't seem to give a clear and consistent reason for why he was banned for that particular infraction that doesn't rely on misrepresenting what he actually said. I've been alternately told that he was banned for saying something he didn't actually say, for worse things he did in the past that should have gotten him banned, for making a mockery out of the free speech policies, for making the site look bad, for disrupting the site, and (this is a new one in this reply), for being racist.
It is simplicitity itself to state why he was banned. All of the above. As Pundit pointed out, he had been given enough rope to hang himself. Folks don't get banned around here for single or isolated incidents. They get banned for a pattern of disruptive behavior. It's been that way almost every single time. In fact, the only infraction I've seen a swift banhammer come down for is posting porn, and I doubt anyone will disagree with that policy. It's always a pattern of disruptive behavior, and after repeated warnings and folks pointing out the behavior that doesn't always come from mods. Seriously, this is not a democracy here. The fact that we have wide leeway here doesn't mean folks can say or do whatever without fear of consequences. This is Pundit's house. We follow his rules or get booted, simple as that. However, just take a sec and enjoy the fact that he allows you to openly question the policy without be risking banning yourself. That certainly isn't true everywhere now is it?
Quote from: John Morrow;553024Are you a licensed mental health professional? If not, what makes you think you are qualified to psychoanalyze people you've never met based on some comments on the Internet? Did you get a Jr. Psychologist license in a box of Cracker Jacks as a kid and think that qualifies you to practice psychology over the Internet? And if you are a licensed mental health professional, I think it's pretty obvious that you should know better than to try to remotely diagnose the psychology of someone you've never met. This crap is right up there with people self-diagnosing themselves as having Asperger's syndrome and it all boils down to a pretentious ad hominem argument. Another fine legacy of post-modernism, which encouraged people to spend more time navel-gazing about hidden motives rather than what people are actually writing or saying.
Oh, and as for this, what makes you think it requires being a professional? I am not a psychologist, but I have worked as a drug and alcohol addiction counselor. I am also a recovering alcoholic and have been in therapy myself many times over the years. I can recognise emotional disfunction when I see it, it's not that difficult. I have interacted through counseling, and AA meetings, with literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of emotionally damaged people in all stages of recovery/healing. I often recognise disfunctional behavior in others because I engaged in it myself at one time or another. This is true of quite a few of us human beings, we all have issues and demons with which we wrestle. It isn't rocket science.
Quote from: John Morrow;553035That may be the case, but given the amount of complaints that I've had directed toward everything from how I reply and how long my replies are to what I say and how I say it, that have included accusations that would qualify as accusations of "disruption", I don't really have any way of telling how close or far I am, which is my concern. And despite the claims that Pseudoephedrine and B.T. knew they were going to be banned or were asking for it, I got the impression both were surprised by it.
I echo OHT. You are nothing like those guys and I have never observed you engaging in disruptive behavior. Your posts, while long, always seem to me to be in good faith and are considered and intelligent. You have changed my opinion more than once, and have revealed to me incorrect ideas I have held, teaching me something. Brother, you are a welcome voice around here as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;553050I by no means want to belittle the situation, and I agree rape is one of the most horrifying things you can do to someone (my wife is a survivor).
But I gotta ask. If you're getting raped every time you go to a con, why are you still going? There is nothing, NOTHING that would be worth the trade off of getting raped. Especially if it's happened several times. That makes no sense to me. Gary Gygax could rise from the dead offering autographs from the inside of Bucho's cellblock, but I ain't gonna go if I know that every other time I went I got assaulted.
This is exactly why I don't believe her assertions. Now I do believe it's possible it happened once and she's stretching the truth to bolster her point, and that alone is horrible. In this case even I feel Benny had the best and only relevant advise. Seek professional help. Really. They are there to help folks heal and overcome such a horrific trauma. Internet forums are not a substitute, and neither is becoming a zealous crusader, although I understand what drives that compulsion.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553107I don't have to agree with something or believe it myself to understand why other people do.
What is with your hostility, bro?
Just ignore Dodger. Welcome and please be sure to wear your thick skin around here :) I get your point and welcome the insight. Dodger is really a decent poster, so just ignore this bit and move on is my advice. He'll get over it.
Quote from: Dodger;553113Well then, setting aside for the time-being the veracity of what you've described, let's think this scenario through.
A girl is raped at a convention. Does she:
(a) call the police, or
(b) report it to the convention staff?
If (b), do the convention staff:
(a) call the police, or
(b) treat it as a joke?
If (b), does the victim (upon realising that the convention staff aren't taking her seriously):
(a) call the police, or
(b) drop the matter and instead post about it in an online forum?
Three (b)s stretches credibility a bit far, don't you think?
I don't think (b) stretches credibility at all actually. There's a lot of shame and doubt about what transpired involved in rape. there's also the fear the perpetrators could return to punish the victim for reporting it. That's the insidiousness of it, it's not about sex, it's about control. It's easy for us to just talk about what "makes sense" because we haven't walked in those shoes. The part of her claim that doesn't jive with me is the number of times she's alleged it's happened. I have no way to know for sure, but my belief until proven otherwise is that that part is bullshit. It even happeneing once, however, is a tragedy and hopefully will result in her seeking help rather than continuing to crusade.
Quote from: GRIM;553184Nobody was thinking about the poor Dickwolf in all this.
I regard that whole debacle as another example of stupidity. The original comic from which it all stems had the root of its humour in the very point the outrage brigade were making. That rape (and other nasty stuff) ends up trivialised in games such as WoW because... hey, already completed the quest so why should I help you?
I lend support where I see people being shat on and have no regrets.
I agree with you, and I think the dogpile on Penny Arcade is fucking pathetic. These people are very out of touch and knee-jerk reactionaries and need to be leashed. I hope you or someone sues them until they can't sit down. I would. They need to be held responsible for their behavior.
Quote from: GRIM;553186I have no wish to screw up this girl's life, even if she apparently wishes to screw up mine. I don't think any good purpose is served by legal action.
She might learn something.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;553125Thanks for the welcome, and I don't care what you call me. That's not my real name.
In a thread that is talking about a dickwolf, I somehow surmised that "Richard" Wolf wasn't your real name...
Quote from: Pete Nash;553216Mongoose can't afford it either. They are down to maybe half a dozen full time members of staff (a big drop from when they kept six or more full time authors on the paycheck in addition to the core editorial/layout/proofing staff they barely maintain now) and times are very, very lean. When Matt replied to MalaDicta that her defamatory petition would hurt or possibly collapse his business he was not exaggerating. The stigma associated with the word rape is good reason to worry that a significant part of his customer and/or distribution base was going to be lost. As it is, his apparent capitulation to strong-arm activism has cost him long term customers anyway.
He was damned if he kept quiet, or damned if he didn't.
Either way, the deliberately worded petition did not only placed half a dozen people's livelihoods at risk, but also threatened the gaming world with the loss of an RPG company and all the games it provided. Loss of licence revenue aside, MM might not mind if the Mongoose Traveller line vanished out of existence now that T5 is finished, but I'm sure there's a lot of fans out there who'd resent the loss of MgT. Likewise for Legend, Lone Wolf, Paranoia and all the other games that Mongoose manages to support.
Now I Mongoose and I may have parted ways, but that does not mean I'm happy to see a small gaming company seriously harmed due to publishing 3 or 4 books of questionable humour out of the literal hundreds of other books and games they've produced over the last decade. Nor am I particularly happy about the manner in which it was orchestrated, with a blind-side attack.
I dread to think what sort of Pandora's Box has been opened here. Do we really want to force authors into the path of self-censorship to protect their professional reputations from mob censure? Is this the first step towards publishers refusing any manuscript submitted with broo, vampires, alien xeno-morphs, puerile humour, off-colour parody? Because after any incidence of Rape is excised from RPG's what will be the next morally borderline thing publishers feel pressured into dropping?
Roleplaying games are escapism. They are also almost all based to some degree upon overcoming adversity or defeating injustice. If you take all the bad stuff out of RPGs according to an ever shifting, ever evolving set of social conventions then guess what... there won't be any RPGs any more.
I'm with you 100% Pete, which is why I support her and her supporters being sued for defamation. I have no interest in her or anyone else being hurt, just that they need to know that they can't just do this kind of witch-hunt to others without consequences. Otherwise, we could very well see more of this and our hobby and people's livelihoods will suffer immensely for it. It's absolutely appalling to me.
It doesn't matter if Desborough makes games with 'rapemonsters'. I think it is objectively true that he has statted out a rapemonster and he has his Hentai-spoof game as well.
You can question his taste, and you can refrain from using his products, or taking his ideas about gameplay as your own and using them at your table. There is still a huge gulf between 'Jim Desborough has bad taste' and 'Jim Desborough supports rape in real life'.
Raking him over the coals for throwing his hat in the ring over the dickwolf infitada against PA is just an attempt at further drawing some equivalency between his opinions that differ from yours and being a 'rape supporter' where absolutely none exists.
These 'Rape Culture' memes can fuck off. This construct is moral tribalism, where you get to build up this warped, particularist/ingroup morality where you can paint your political rivals as a dangerous subhuman faction that needs to be put down like a rabid dog (the now closed LF subforum at SA was full to the brim with e-Weathermen that advocated violent revolution, and mass murder of the majority of the inhabitants of the 1st World and anyone who disagreed with the platform was a 'liberal pussy' also fit for their proposed concentration camps).
'Rape Culture' and various other 'Who, whom?' morality schemes are all nothing but justifications for an 'ends justify the means' policy against imagined transgressors. That is ultimately where the logic leads. That if I take them seriously that Jim Desborough literally causes rapes with his writing then I am obliged to act in the defense of others against him (again, this justifies anything I might do, because I'd literally be saving innocent victims from being raped).
So with some mental gymnastics you can go from being the objectively, observable aggressor in any encounter to the scrappy underdog fighting 'The Patriarchy' or racists, or whatever your particular bugaboo is, so long as you broaden the definition to such a point that statting out the dickwolf is exactly equivalent to rape (which is exactly what MalaDicta is saying).
While I don't agree with B.T.'s banning, I note that Mr. Wolf is using a lot of his signature phrases.
Quote from: RobMuadib;553201Administrative Note:
Message to User:
Stalinist revisionism is no more welcome on these boards than Nazi apologism.
That's pretty rich considering one of the more prolific activists over in the Desborough threads has the handle 'Lenin'. I'm going to have to assume that Leninist revisionism would have been acceptable.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553276While I don't agree with B.T.'s banning, I note that Mr. Wolf is using a lot of his signature phrases.
The mods can check my IP. I'm not a sock. I may have registered an account here years ago and forgotten about it, but I don't think so.
Chances are BT and I have just read some of the same political blogs and adopted some of the same obscure phrases as part of our political lexicon.
Quote from: GRIM;553233Yep. The whole thing is ridiculous and anyone taking it seriously looked ridiculous. More material to make them look ridiculous.
Quote from: Pete Nash;553216Mongoose can't afford it either. They are down to maybe half a dozen full time members of staff (a big drop from when they kept six or more full time authors on the paycheck in addition to the core editorial/layout/proofing staff they barely maintain now) and times are very, very lean. When Matt replied to MalaDicta that her defamatory petition would hurt or possibly collapse his business he was not exaggerating. The stigma associated with the word rape is good reason to worry that a significant part of his customer and/or distribution base was going to be lost. As it is, his apparent capitulation to strong-arm activism has cost him long term customers anyway.
He was damned if he kept quiet, or damned if he didn't.
Either way, the deliberately worded petition did not only placed half a dozen people's livelihoods at risk, but also threatened the gaming world with the loss of an RPG company and all the games it provided. Loss of licence revenue aside, MM might not mind if the Mongoose Traveller line vanished out of existence now that T5 is finished, but I'm sure there's a lot of fans out there who'd resent the loss of MgT. Likewise for Legend, Lone Wolf, Paranoia and all the other games that Mongoose manages to support.
Now I Mongoose and I may have parted ways, but that does not mean I'm happy to see a small gaming company seriously harmed due to publishing 3 or 4 books of questionable humour out of the literal hundreds of other books and games they've produced over the last decade. Nor am I particularly happy about the manner in which it was orchestrated, with a blind-side attack.
I dread to think what sort of Pandora's Box has been opened here. Do we really want to force authors into the path of self-censorship to protect their professional reputations from mob censure? Is this the first step towards publishers refusing any manuscript submitted with broo, vampires, alien xeno-morphs, puerile humour, off-colour parody? Because after any incidence of Rape is excised from RPG's what will be the next morally borderline thing publishers feel pressured into dropping?
Roleplaying games are escapism. They are also almost all based to some degree upon overcoming adversity or defeating injustice. If you take all the bad stuff out of RPGs according to an ever shifting, ever evolving set of social conventions then guess what... there won't be any RPGs any more.
Well, GRIM, here's my problem concerning your stance, here. I think it's okay for you to engage these people you disagree with however you want, and if you want to "give them ammunition to make them look ridiculous", well, I think it's a really stupid move, and talks very poorly of your sense of humour, but whatever. That's your choice.
Where I'm not feeling so sure about this is when you start dragging with you the people you worked with and force them to take a stance in a war they did not want, which in turn may hurt real people and real livelihoods, just because you felt like having some lulz at the expense of the goons or whoever else offended your sense of pride and freedom of speech of whatever the hell it is that motivates this "strategy of yours". And by doing this, by extension, you are giving the horde against you more leverage to hurt the entire hobby in the process, because at some point some publishers will have to pull books off the shelves, authors who are concerned about getting a next gig will have to look what they write and censor themselves, and on and on it goes, until you find yourself surrounded by a hobby that you helped destroy from a completely misplaced sense of humourous justice, which is exactly the reverse of your stated goal, as I understand it.
Do you understand you're not the only one in this boat, that there are people who depend on you not to act like a fucking moron and kick the bee hive with your naked foot? You understand that, right?
If so... what the FUCK, dude? Hello?
Quote from: Benoist;553293Well, GRIM, here's my problem concerning your stance, here. I think it's okay for you to engage these people you disagree with however you want, and if you want to "give them ammunition to make them look ridiculous", well, I think it's a really stupid move, and talks very poorly of your sense of humour, but whatever. That's your choice.
Where I'm not feeling so sure about this is when you start dragging with you the people you worked with and force them to take a stance in a war they did not want, which in turn may hurt real people and real livelihoods, just because you felt like having some lulz at the expense of the goons or whoever else offended your sense of pride and freedom of speech of whatever the hell it is that motivates this "strategy of yours". And by doing this, by extension, you are giving the horde against you more leverage to hurt the entire hobby in the process, because at some point some publishers will have to pull books off the shelves, authors who are concerned about getting a next gig will have to look what they write and censor themselves, and on and on it goes, until you find yourself surrounded by a hobby that you helped destroy from a completely misplaced sense of humourous justice, which is exactly the reverse of your stated goal, as I understand it.
Do you understand you're not the only one in this boat, that there are people who depend on you not to act like a fucking moron and kick the bee hive with your naked foot? You understand that, right?
If so... what the FUCK, dude? Hello?
This is....
Ridiculous.
"Lie down, Jim. Let Maladicta kick you a few more times until you've proven repentant enough to rejoin society so they don't tear down the entire RPG industry. Please, for the good of us all, at last show some basic humanity."
Quote from: Sigmund;553266Just ignore Dodger. Welcome and please be sure to wear your thick skin around here :)
Aha, no skin off my back. There is kind of a lack of seriousness to all this to me.
Quote from: Spike;553299This is....
Ridiculous.
"Lie down, Jim. Let Maladicta kick you a few more times until you've proven repentant enough to rejoin society so they don't tear down the entire RPG industry. Please, for the good of us all, at last show some basic humanity."
Yeah, you're right, this is totally ridiculous because this is totally NOT what I'm saying. I'm not saying anyone should capitulate to the pressure and indignation, far from it, but giving in to the shitstorm and giving ammunition to these guys for the lulz when other people's jobs and the hobby behind are at stake? WTF?
Sorry, Ben, but that IS what you are saying... mockingly paraphrased, admittedly.
1)Maladicta and a whole bunch of raging assholes with an obvious agenda deliberately mis-read what GRIM wrote to drum up support for their pet cause.
2)Maladicta and Co. then turned and attacked Mongoose, purportedly because they had already (past tense) published something GRIM had written. Possibly because a bigger, more visible target for their manufactured outrage is better publicity than some dude who mostly self publishes and is more or less immune to their protesting.
3) GRIM, still an independent entity, rather than at all representative of Mongoose, decides to up the ante on the people who attacked him by posting something deliberately provocative.
4) Benoist (That's you...duh), tells him he's a bad person for not getting all meek and defensive in the face of the fucking bullshit outrage because (Gasp!) HE'S DESTROYING THE INDUSTRY!
Its a bullshit position to ask someone to take. Unless you think its NOT mock outrage, and that GRIM has no business trying to publish whatever the fuck he wants to publish, because it is offensive. In which case, just tell him you find his shit offensive and get over yourself.
Me? Since I happen to like Mongoose products (shoddy though they often are), and even though I recently dropped a dime on three more Traveller books, I'ma go ahead and order something else from them today.
Why?
Because THAT is how I intend to keep mongoose alive. That, and mocking the shit out of Maladicta's lying little bitch ass. If I could draw a dickwolf, I probably would, at this point. I read that cartoon when it was published and I thought it was fucking hilarious (I get the reference, and it is a SCATHING endictment of a particular quest. Which is apparently a bad thing to make comedy of, because, you know, mentioning raping dickwolves causes rape, or some shit. Even if its leveled AS.A.FUCKING.CRITICISM.).
Hell. I'm half tempted to buy a copy of Hentacle just to piss a bunch of people off, and I think its stupid as hell.
And if Mr. Reams doesn't buy RPG.net and start selling indulgences, I might. Because, thanks to him, I just realized I actually could do it if I wanted.
Of course, since I'm not into making money or anything, I'd probably just change all the moderators into the most un-tangency motherfuckers I could get to volunteer (BT isn't busy now, is he?), and keep the general policies the same until it tore itself apart for my sadistic amusement. Then I'd dance on the ashes.
Well... maybe not 'cause I actually don't care, but it was a cool story, yo?
Quote from: Benoist;553304Yeah, you're right, this is totally ridiculous because this is totally NOT what I'm saying. I'm not saying anyone should capitulate to the pressure and indignation, far from it, but giving in to the shitstorm and giving ammunition to these guys for the lulz when other people's jobs and the hobby behind are at stake? WTF?
I kinda agree Benny. I don't think it excuses these people for their irresponsible witchhunt, but it's also certainly not how I would react to them. I am not going to presume to take GRIM to task, however, when he is one of the victims of this attack. It's hard to say how we would react when we're not the ones in the crosshairs. We might not share his tastes in humor or subject-matter, but I still say he's done nothing to warrant such an extreme attack.
Quote from: Sigmund;553266Dodger is really a decent poster...
How dare you!
Talk about fucking hyperbole, Spike.
Quote from: Spike;553313Sorry, Ben, but that IS what you are saying... mockingly paraphrased, admittedly.
1)Maladicta and a whole bunch of raging assholes with an obvious agenda deliberately mis-read what GRIM wrote to drum up support for their pet cause.
2)Maladicta and Co. then turned and attacked Mongoose, purportedly because they had already (past tense) published something GRIM had written. Possibly because a bigger, more visible target for their manufactured outrage is better publicity than some dude who mostly self publishes and is more or less immune to their protesting.
3) GRIM, still an independent entity, rather than at all representative of Mongoose, decides to up the ante on the people who attacked him by posting something deliberately provocative.
STOP. That's where that stops being cool with me. Because for all the shit about being an independent entity and bullshit, there's Mongoose on the line too, and just "upping the ante" by providing ammo to the guys raging on the other side is NOT solving anything. It's just muddying the water with fucking bullshit. It's making it HARDER to know who's saying the truth, not EASIER.
My opinion is that everyone should fucking chill and stop pouring gazoline on this shit, and that's exactly what GRIM is completely comfortable doing because "LOL it makes them look bad." Well fuck that. I don't give a shit about making them look bad when people's jobs are in the balance. That is selfish, self-righteous bullshit is what it is, whether you are right or wrong. It's irrelevant. It's just totally selfish crap, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Spike;5533134) Benoist (That's you...duh), tells him he's a bad person for not getting all meek and defensive in the face of the fucking bullshit outrage because (Gasp!) HE'S DESTROYING THE INDUSTRY!
I'm not asking him to be all meek and defensive. I'm asking to chill and try to be reasonable. Someone has to be here. Because just going nuts on the guys on the other side and giving them fucking ammo to call you a rape-culture glorifier isn't going to bring anything good to anybody here, first of which the guys at Mongoose, then all the Conventions and their organizations thereof, then the other publishers who ever gave a gig to James who will be accused of supporting the rape-clown retroactively, then the standards of publishing in the industry that will become stricter and anal and politically correct because someone, somewhere on the web might take offense, etc.
This attitude of James is, to me, selfish and immature at the last degree. It's actually making things worse, not better, and just saying "well w/e LOL" is not going to solve anything.
Spike pretty much nails it.
Sorry, I'm not going to capitulate to what appears to me to be outrageous lying, character smearing and deliberate misrepresentation.
Mongoose commissioned me, years ago, to write those books and got what they paid for. Appearing to throw me under the bus because Ms Cooper threw a fit is understandable as a business decision, but betrayal on a personal level.
These people are ridiculous.
They are as ridiculous as Jack Chick.
They are as ridiculous as Jack Thompson.
They are as ridiculous as Dr Wertham.
They are this generation's Pat Pulling.
What to do with ridiculous things? Ridicule them.
I care about Mongoose and its employees more than they apparently care about me. I'm fine with that, Matt from Mongoose can live with his own decisions as I live with mine.
Things to keep in mind:
1. Mongoose commissioned those works and they're many years old.
2. I don't consider them my best work, but I will defend them on the grounds of my intent and their lack of harm.
3. The blog post 'In Defence of Rape' was a response to the fuss in the video-games arena, most particularly the reaction to Lara Croft getting her bottom touched in a trailer for the new Tomb Raider game and was defending the use of rape (amongst many other nasty things) as a plot device. It had fuck all to do with RPGs.
4. Across the internet this all appears to stem from SA and in particular from Ettin and a couple of affiliated goons. The writing style and structure is quite distinctive as is - occasionally - the choice of avatar.
This whole thing follows the same arc as the dickwolves fiasco.
Fuss about nothing. Wilful misinterpretation and unwillingness to listen.
End result?
Pretty much sweet FA.
Quote from: Dodger;553321How dare you!
I'm a ballsy bastard ;)
Quote from: GRIM;553326Things to keep in mind:
1. Mongoose commissioned those works and they're many years old.
2. I don't consider them my best work, but I will defend them on the grounds of my intent and their lack of harm.
3. The blog post 'In Defence of Rape' was a response to the fuss in the video-games arena, most particularly the reaction to Lara Croft getting her bottom touched in a trailer for the new Tomb Raider game and was defending the use of rape (amongst many other nasty things) as a plot device. It had fuck all to do with RPGs.
4. Across the internet this all appears to stem from SA and in particular from Ettin and a couple of affiliated goons. The writing style and structure is quite distinctive as is - occasionally - the choice of avatar.
This whole thing follows the same arc as the dickwolves fiasco.
Fuss about nothing. Wilful misinterpretation and unwillingness to listen.
End result?
Pretty much sweet FA.
To me the real and only crime in all this is that those people have been allowed to slander and defame you and others with near impunity. This is why I can't fault any of your reactions to this, despite not being how I would react I don't think. They are the ones in the wrong and IMO should be held accountable to the furthest extent the law will allow. They need to be sent the message that it's not ok to do this to people.
Quote from: Sigmund;553331To me the real and only crime in all this is that those people have been allowed to slander and defame you and others with near impunity. This is why I can't fault any of your reactions to this, despite not being how I would react I don't think. They are the ones in the wrong and IMO should be held accountable to the furthest extent the law will allow. They need to be sent the message that it's not ok to do this to people.
The only person I have real legal recourse against is Ms Cooper and in my opinion she has enough problems and may be a catspaw. Nothing is gained by ruining her life with legal proceedings and it would imply that I lend their accusations any credit. She may want to bugger up my life but the feeling is not mutual. I don't know the lady from Adam.
Can't say I agree with your MO, James, but that point has been stated already. I see no need to rehash the same points over and over. I just hope this whole situation doesn't become even more ugly than it already is right now.
Quote from: Benoist;553334Can't say I agree with your MO, James, but that point has been stated already. I see no need to rehash the same points over and over. I just hope this whole situation doesn't become even more ugly than it already is right now.
It seems pretty much spent.
Hopefully my last word on it will be when Mongoose put out their revised statement.
Quote from: GRIM;553186I'm not wealthy by any means but I have had more than one offer of help and a suggestion of going with a pro bono lawyer and assigning any settlement to a rape shelter or similar in Winnipeg.
That one is almost tempting, but...
I have no wish to screw up this girl's life, even if she apparently wishes to screw up mine. I don't think any good purpose is served by legal action.
Quote from: Sigmund;553270She might learn something.
This is an important point, because GRIM would not only be teaching MalaDicta not to behave in this manner, but it would also be giving a clear sign to any other jackass who wanted to destroy someone's reputation or damage their business through falsehood that this tactic will not be tolerated. Having an easygoing attitude about this is tacit approval of this kind of tactic to be used again.
Quote from: jeff37923;553336This is an important point, because GRIM would not only be teaching MalaDicta not to behave in this manner, but it would also be giving a clear sign to any other jackass who wanted to destroy someone's reputation or damage their business through falsehood that this tactic will not be tolerated. Having an easygoing attitude about this is tacit approval of this kind of tactic to be used again.
To an extent I agree and if I had enough money and was enough of an arsehole, I would pursue it.
I don't particularly want to air the other reasons I
don't want to pursue this course publicly.
Quote from: Spike;553299This is....
Ridiculous.
"Lie down, Jim. Let Maladicta kick you a few more times until you've proven repentant enough to rejoin society so they don't tear down the entire RPG industry. Please, for the good of us all, at last show some basic humanity."
I don't think Benoist is advocating that.
I think that he is advocating, "Don't make a fucked up situation any worse, because this has grown so big that it affects us all."
Quote from: jeff37923;553338I don't think Benoist is advocating that.
I think that he is advocating, "Don't make a fucked up situation any worse, because this has grown so big that it affects us all."
That's basically it, yes. It's grown so big that Mongoose might lose revenue and fire people, that Conventions might be affected, other publishers, publishing standards in the industry and so on, so forth.
Quote from: GRIM;553337To an extent I agree and if I had enough money and was enough of an arsehole, I would pursue it.
I don't particularly want to air the other reasons I don't want to pursue this course publicly.
Fair enough, although I fear that not suffering consequences for it will only encourage them to do it again to someone else.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553247For humour to be effective it must be humerous.
One minute you're all Nine Inch Nails (or Johnny Cash, if you prefer) and the next minute you're all Snoop Dog.
I bow to the wisdom of J Arcane. He called it way back.
You see?
This ain't my first rodeo. I've rode the bull my share of times, and got the scars to prove it.
Eventually, you realize that you're the idiot, because
you're the one put yourself on the bull in the first place.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553276While I don't agree with B.T.'s banning, I note that Mr. Wolf is using a lot of his signature phrases.
I thought the same until I reread it. Wolf is much more coherent and logical.
Quote from: Spike;553313Of course, since I'm not into making money or anything, I'd probably just change all the moderators into the most un-tangency motherfuckers I could get to volunteer (BT isn't busy now, is he?), and keep the general policies the same until it tore itself apart for my sadistic amusement. Then I'd dance on the ashes.
Making BT the moderator of RPG.net would be a thing of absolute beauty.
This is already a big problem and one that needs addressing. In a broader non-gaming geek-media context that is why I wrote the blog post that set them off this time.
At the moment the 'public square' is entirely ceded to these... well this is the RPGsite I don't need to pull punches I guess. It is entirely ceded to these nutters.
While claiming to argue for diversity they simultaneously want to divest geek-media of the things they find 'problematic'. It doesn't matter to them if it's humour, satire, ironic or 'real' they regard it as bad. Objectively bad. Which is of course a nonsensical position in any aesthetic medium.
Rather than allowing the bullies to control the debate I believe we need to turn it into a conversation and my original blog post was an attempt to do just that. To say 'Hang on a minute... as a story device, rape ain't always bad and shouldn't be written off'.
In my opinion the reaction to that fairly simple and innocuous contention: 'Bad things make good stories' shows just how important this is and how far the problem has already come.
Nobody wants to say 'Hang on a minute!' or 'No, you're full of crap' because contesting a point is taken as supporting the 'bad thing' that the crusader is attacking. It doesn't matter how strongly you're for equality for women, if you disagree about the existence of rape culture then you must be a misogynist. If you believe a Penny Arcade strip actually supports their POV but they disagree, you must be an awful human being, no matter what else.
I call shenanigans.
RPGnet is lost to this BS and it seems like SA is as well, not that I ever frequented there. Now we have people trying to censor companies and individual creatives (and fuck you, yes it does count as censorship). Surely at this point we can acknowledge that there is a serious problem, yes?
If you think confrontation and mockery isn't a good tactic I invite you to bring others to the table and make suggestions, but I'm still with Jefferson when it comes to ridicule.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;553274So with some mental gymnastics you can go from being the objectively, observable aggressor in any encounter to the scrappy underdog fighting 'The Patriarchy' or racists, or whatever your particular bugaboo is, so long as you broaden the definition to such a point that statting out the dickwolf is exactly equivalent to rape (which is exactly what MalaDicta is saying).
Okay, let's stop this here. Nobody is saying that - I don't think MalaDicta has referenced the Dickwolf writeup; if she had even seen it, I suspect you'd know about it by now.
I'm the one that's pressed the dickwolf writeup issue this afternoon, and Benoist pretty much nails my thoughts on it.
Bigger picture here folks. Know what happens when witch hunts aren't put down hard? They come knocking at your door next.
Behold Danbuter, rape advocate and hatemonger against all those of alternate sexual preference:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23161
Thed - Lord of Rape and Beastmen. Thed expects his followers to be brutish rapists, and is the creator and lord of all beastmen.
Slaanesh - God or Goddess of Lust and Cruelty. Slaaneshi cultists revel in deviance of all forms. Many are sadists, and happily torture their sexual partners.
My claim that he's trying to get men to rape women is laughable. Its a legitimate Swords and Sorcery theme. Slaanesh forms part of one of the most wildly popular games in history. Almost as laughable as the idea that the original blog post was trying to get men to rape women.
But that doesn't matter to these fine people. I've posted it already in the thread but I'll post it again.
If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.
Cardinal Richelieu
The Cardinal wasn't, as he imagined, displaying his subtle genius, any idiot can find a reason to hate if they look hard enough. That kind of mindset isn't interested in legitimacy or justice, or even facts, only in power. And power is what this is all about.
So who's next? Dan? Benny? Me? I posted in that thread musing about phalluses being carried for religious observances. I'm intellectually mature enough to be able to consider an idea without adhering to it. But none of that means anything to these sorts. Are you going to look over your shoulder every time you write anything on the internet, consider whether or not the pitchforks and torches might be outside your window next?
Think about it.
Quote from: _kent_;553220No-one EVER needs to say they are 'against the notion of child-rape'.
Tell that to the author of Poison'd.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;553350Tell that to the author of Poison'd.
RPGPundit
They shouldn't have needed to.
Guys, chill about Dick (Wolf, Richard), please.
Quote from: The Traveller;553348Bigger picture here folks. Know what happens when witch hunts aren't put down hard? They come knocking at your door next.
Behold Danbuter, rape advocate and hatemonger against all those of alternate sexual preference:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23161
Thed - Lord of Rape and Beastmen. Thed expects his followers to be brutish rapists, and is the creator and lord of all beastmen.
Slaanesh - God or Goddess of Lust and Cruelty. Slaaneshi cultists revel in deviance of all forms. Many are sadists, and happily torture their sexual partners.
My claim that he's trying to get men to rape women is laughable. Its a legitimate Swords and Sorcery theme. Slaanesh forms part of one of the most wildly popular games in history. Almost as laughable as the idea that the original blog post was trying to get men to rape women.
But that doesn't matter to these fine people. I've posted it already in the thread but I'll post it again.
If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.
Cardinal Richelieu
The Cardinal wasn't, as he imagined, displaying his subtle genius, any idiot can find a reason to hate if they look hard enough. That kind of mindset isn't interested in legitimacy or justice, or even facts, only in power. And power is what this is all about.
So who's next? Dan? Benny? Me? I posted in that thread musing about phalluses being carried for religious observances. I'm intellectually mature enough to be able to consider an idea without adhering to it. But none of that means anything to these sorts. Are you going to look over your shoulder every time you write anything on the internet, consider whether or not the pitchforks and torches might be outside your window next?
Think about it.
I'm with ya 100% Trav. This is why I'm calling for consequences to be leveled on those irresponsibly pursuing this pseudo-crusade.
Quote from: Sigmund;553357I'm with ya 100% Trav. This is why I'm calling for consequences to be leveled on those irresponsibly pursuing this pseudo-crusade.
And don't anybody reading this thread think they are safe. I've seen worse done on the internet over less, but this jihad is only one step along the road, rather than just being a random spasm. The dickwolf thing is a clear enough indication of that.
Laughing at these people isn't useful, although it may be the first response from a rational mind. All it does is give them more fuel for the fire ("laughing at rape!") on the surface, but what's really going on is they hear the second step in Gandhi's four step programme falling into place, the first is already done, and I present the shitstorm as evidence. Those wise words from the father of modern peaceful protest are not immune to subversion either, no more than the positive aims of feminism were.
They have identified a target (a harmless hobby full of cheesecake art), and are doing their level best to overrun it.
Muting them is no good either. Lets just say we pooled our money, set up a front company, and bought rpgnet, banning the extremists. They'd just do the same thing again, every word sifted over looking for petition fodder, no matter how innocent.
Railing at them and cursing them is just step three in the four step plan.
No, these creatures need to be engaged in rational debate, open and clear discussion, which is why the clear betrayal of the hobby by those who should have been its guardians is such a serious blow. These concerns should have been nipped in the bud as the warped byblow they were, using reasonable discussion. Even that wouldn't have convinced the most hardcore, but it would most certainly have shone a clear light on what they were doing, which in turn would have turned everyone else off them.
Instead the flames were fanned by traitors and fools, and even those well balanced and clear headed posters over there, most of them in my estimation, are picking up pitchforks, terrified they'll be next on the list. This is the anatomy of a witch hunt.
I look at these creatures and you know what I see? I see this:
(http://www.kerrydean.com/pictures/gmork-the-never-ending-story-movie.jpg)
Yeah, laugh if you want, but don't tell me this isn't relevant.
QuoteGmork: Foolish boy. Dont you know anything about Fantasia? Its the world of human fantasy. Every part, every creature of it, is a piece of the dreams and hopes of mankind. Therefore, it has no boundaries.
Atreyu: But why is Fantasia dying, then?
Gmork: Because people have begun to lose their hopes and forget their dreams. So the Nothing grows stronger.
Atreyu: What is the Nothing?
Gmork: Its the emptiness thats left. Its like a despair, destroying this world. And I have been trying to help it.
Atreyu: But why?
Gmork: Because people who have no hopes are easy to control; and whoever has the control... has the power!
Fine, even if that's too colourful for you, remember this.
Next time you post, ask yourself which of your six lines you're writing.
We care a lot about disasters, fires, floods and killer bees
We care a lot about the NASA shuttle falling in the sea
We care a lot about starvation and the food that Live Aid bought
We care a lot about disease, baby Rock, Hudson, rock, yeah!
We care a lot about the gamblers and the pushers and the geeks
We care a lot about the crack and smack and whack that hits the street
We care a lot about the welfare of all the boys and girls
We care a lot about you people cause we're out to save the world
YEAH!
And it's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it
We care a lot about the army navy air force and marines
We care a lot about the SF, NY and LAPD
We care a lot about you people, about your guns
about the wars you're fighting gee that looks like fun
We care a lot about the Garbage Pail Kids, they never lie
We care a lot about Transformers cause there's more than meets the eye
We care a lot about the little things, the bigger things we top
We care a lot about you people yeah you bet we care a lot,
YEAH!
Well, its a dirty job but someone's gotta do it
And it's a dirty song but someone's gotta sing it
OHT wins the thread, fuckers. I miss Faith No More.
KoOS
Quote from: The Traveller;553377No, these creatures need to be engaged in rational debate, open and clear discussion, which is why the clear betrayal of the hobby by those who should have been its guardians is such a serious blow. These concerns should have been nipped in the bud as the warped byblow they were, using reasonable discussion. Even that wouldn't have convinced the most hardcore, but it would most certainly have shone a clear light on what they were doing, which in turn would have turned everyone else off them.
No. This is the typical naive error that the Gramscian socialist-types love to see people try. If they're not arguing in good faith then rational debate gets you NOWHERE.
You can see it perfectly in the history of the Forge and their tactics, and remember these are some of the same Swine, just trying a different tactic now (as I said, before it was pseudo-intellectualism, now its pseudo-activism); they ran all over everyone who tried to engage in "rational debate" with them because they understood how to CONTROL LANGUAGE, by allowing THEM to define what a roleplaying game was, by allowing them to decide that the debate would be couched within GNS theory, by letting them manipulate all the preconditions of the debate, they were pissing their pants with glee at all the idiots who thought that trying to reason with them would work. Since again, their motive was not "Come, let us reason together", it was to destroy the hobby.
The way I beat the Forge was by playing their own game, better than they did. And that's how you'll beat these guys. You don't reason with them, you beat them by taking all their extremist techniques and turning it back on them; by controlling the language and refusing to give up that ground to the other side, and by making sure you reveal any and all underlying motives involved with the other side.
RPGPundit
Quote from: The Traveller;553377No, these creatures need to be engaged in rational debate, open and clear discussion, which is why the clear betrayal of the hobby by those who should have been its guardians is such a serious blow. These concerns should have been nipped in the bud as the warped byblow they were, using reasonable discussion. Even that wouldn't have convinced the most hardcore, but it would most certainly have shone a clear light on what they were doing, which in turn would have turned everyone else off them.
Registered just to say: maybe what you need is a Blog About Malyn Cooper Day. Like they had for Brett Kimberlin: http://www.popehat.com/2012/05/25/blog-about-brett-kimberlin-day/ (http://www.popehat.com/2012/05/25/blog-about-brett-kimberlin-day/)
(In fact, have a look at posts tagged Brett Kimberlin in general there.)
She hasn't (yet) evolved to the level of a Kimberlin, though that might simply be because of a lack of resources for outright lawfare. But she and her cohorts are clearly already using whatever internet means at their disposal to silence and harm a writer and a company they've targeted.
No, i don't think so mate.
Nice try though.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553401No, i don't think so mate.
Nice try though.
I'm guessing you didn't read what was there, and don't get that I'm essentially espousing what RPGPundit is above, except with a model example.
Yeah no. Thanks.
Quote from: Darth Nikon;553405I'm guessing you didn't read what was there, and don't get that I'm essentially espousing what RPGPundit is above, except with a model example.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that i fully agree with him.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553409You seem to be under the misapprehension that i fully agree with him.
So was your reply to both of us?
It's OK, you don't have to stand up and do anything. I'm just providing a current example of a similar situation to those who might wish to.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553394No. This is the typical naive error that the Gramscian socialist-types love to see people try. If they're not arguing in good faith then rational debate gets you NOWHERE.
Only if your goal is to convince them. Its not, the goal is convince everyone else.
We're more or less in agreement, wth one caveat, and that is the tone of responses.
This is a little different to the forge situation, since its not artistic meanderings in a niche hobby, it has pulled in what some feel are serious social and political issues. Giving them both barrels may simply radicalise even more people, they've set themselves up in a classic position - anti rape. Which means you're either with them or a rape advocate. People could choose to not take sides with the forge, here its going to be a little harder. This is exactly the mechanism that resulted in rpgnet being turned into a sock puppet to an extent the forge never achieved.
They are bringing agendas and arguments that have no place here into play, any more than they belong in snooker or WoW. The setup is this: they want to make this rapists versus victims. I think the argument should be framed as hobbyists versus witch hunters and censors who have no business here, and any company or author attacked should rationally argue that position, using past examples.
We've already seen what laughing at them does, dickwolf. GMS attacked back in anger and was selectively quoted and savaged, while actual physical threats from one of them were never mentioned. Highlighting these and other hypocrisies while making their witchuntery clear for any rational person to behold will probably produce the best results.
Everybody's got a right to his or her opinions. But the idea of piling on more bullshit on top of the bullshit that's already out there is not appealing to me. It just makes the clusterfuck a lot worse for no appreciable benefits, IMO.
I really don't think this situation is comparable to Jack Chick and his tracts, to be honest. We don't even know Ms. Cooper and whatever the hell happened to her and/or her friends in the first place. It's easy to go apeshit and say "well, she's lying", and my spider sense is certainly tingling too when I read her accounts of her convention experiences, but at the end of the day, we don't know what happened, if there's any shred of objective truth in what she said (one instance of a rape that would have completely damaged her perception of her interactions with other people would be quite enough) well... I don't want to be the guy pointing the finger to say "I'm sure, 100%, that she's lying about everything", because I'm *not*.
I don't know her, I never talked to her on the phone or face-to-face, so the bottom line for me is that I can't be 100% sure of what happened and how and when, if anything happened at all.
I don't think this is quite on par with dealing with a convicted domestic terrorist and murderer.
This is still more or less bitching about one guy's RPG book.
Quote from: GRIM;553346Now we have people trying to censor companies and individual creatives (and fuck you, yes it does count as censorship). Surely at this point we can acknowledge that there is a serious problem, yes?
It's not censorship.
I don't see a serious problem. Looks to me like everything is working the way it should.
I should note that this whole clusterfuck is a microcosm for the tactics used by the political left against the political right for, oh, decades (http://vcn.bc.ca/citizens-handbook/rules.html).
While Andrew Breitbart demonstrated that it is possible to hold and regain ground against the radical left by using their own tactics against them, I think it remains to be seen whether there is any defense against Alinskyite tactics that doesn't involve getting down in the mud with one's opponents.
Quote from: Benoist;553417Everybody's got a right to his or her opinions. But the idea of piling on more bullshit on top of the bullshit that's already out there is not appealing to me. It just makes the clusterfuck a lot worse for no appreciable benefits, IMO.
To be clear, I'm talking about pointing out and aggressively denouncing the confirmed lies/misrepresentations already confirmed from her initial petition-attack. The "I'm a victim I quit" allegations that follow are a sideshow and a distraction from that.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;553419I don't think this is quite on par with dealing with a convicted domestic terrorist and murderer.
This is still more or less bitching about one guy's RPG book.
Except for the fact that it's a threat to Mongoose and the people employed there, as has been pointed out.
The next question is just how bad does it have to get before you call shenanigans on it? Crystal Cox internet buffoonery bad? Or do you have to actually wait until someone on the Cooper/Goon side decides to SWAT people at Mongoose?
Well at least I'm in agreement on that last point, Darth Nikon. We know that some facts have been deformed or lied about by Ms. Cooper, like the actual topic of the original blog post that created this whole shitstorm, to begin with.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553422I should note that this whole clusterfuck is a microcosm for the tactics used by the political left against the political right for, oh, decades (http://vcn.bc.ca/citizens-handbook/rules.html).
While Andrew Breitbart demonstrated that it is possible to hold and regain ground against the radical left by using their own tactics against them, I think it remains to be seen whether there is any defense against Alinskyite tactics that doesn't involve getting down in the mud with one's opponents.
I hate this type of shit. The handbook, I mean.
Quote from: Benoist;553425Well at least I'm in agreement on that last point, Darth Nikon. We know that some facts have been deformed or lied about by Ms. Cooper, like the actual topic of the original blog post that created this whole shitstorm, to begin with.
Exactly. And the entire point of going after the initial confirmed bad, and keeping it out there, is so they can't distract with the secondary "I'm the real victim" stuff that's a fairly transparent means of trying to make people forget that initial wrongdoing. That's the point of the "Blog about," really.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553421It's not censorship.
I don't see a serious problem. Looks to me like everything is working the way it should.
I refer the honourable member to the 'fuck you' I gave some moments ago. Also a dictionary and several human rights organisations.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553422I should note that this whole clusterfuck is a microcosm for the tactics used by the political left against the political right for, oh, decades (http://vcn.bc.ca/citizens-handbook/rules.html).
While Andrew Breitbart demonstrated that it is possible to hold and regain ground against the radical left by using their own tactics against them, I think it remains to be seen whether there is any defense against Alinskyite tactics that doesn't involve getting down in the mud with one's opponents.
I should point out that I am on the radical left (and for Europe even) and that fuels my DISMAY at this sort of censorial bullying. One is used to getting it from the hardline Christian right, not from the left.
Perhaps that just comes from growing up under the influence of a parental generation of libertine hippies.
Left, right, thats pointless here. As in not the point.
The point is power. Everything else is just a vehicle to these creatures. Creatures...
Gmorks I dub them, six-liners. Witch hunters.
Quote from: The Traveller;553432Left, right, thats pointless here. As in not the point.
The point is power. Everything else is just a vehicle to these creatures. Creatures...
Gmorks I dub them, six-liners. Witch hunters.
Well, that was my point rather that it's not so much a political thing but rather something else.
Quote from: GRIM;553428I refer the honourable member to the 'fuck you' I gave some moments ago. Also a dictionary and several human rights organisations.
Individuals don't have a god given right to my money, or to have their works be published, distributed, or stocked by third parties.
I see a lot of fear on this thread. I can't believe it.
Don't hand your balls over to this lying feminist.
She's not even worthy of a response.
Just ignore her. Everyone. Just ignore her.
Quote from: GRIM;553434Well, that was my point rather that it's not so much a political thing but rather something else.
Yeah, the left-right thing needs smacked down in general; Ken at Popehat expressed it better than I am able:/ (http://www.popehat.com/2012/05/23/how-about-defending-speech-because-its-speech-not-because-you-agree-with-it/)
QuoteWhat this diversity of topics shows is that legal threats — and threats of other forms of retaliation for speech — represent a pervasive problem in our culture, and are a deterrent of all sorts of speech, not just the speech you like. Say that someone sues, or threatens, or abuses someone whose ideas you despise, someone whose good faith you doubt, someone working for political or social ends you are struggling against. If that censor is successful in any measure, are you harmed? Yes. You are harmed because the next censor, the one gunning for you or someone you agree with — is emboldened. You are harmed because people, in general, are deterred from discussing controversial ideas. You are harmed because when censors are successful, censorship increasingly becomes the norm, and the populace's already tenuous support of principles of free expression ebb a little more.
Quote from: The Traveller;553413Only if your goal is to convince them. Its not, the goal is convince everyone else.
The goal is always to convince everyone else; and if you go into a debate with them where you are expecting them to act in good faith, you'll be butchered and they will win because they'll manipulate and control all the terms of the debate.
QuoteThis is a little different to the forge situation, since its not artistic meanderings in a niche hobby, it has pulled in what some feel are serious social and political issues. Giving them both barrels may simply radicalise even more people, they've set themselves up in a classic position - anti rape. Which means you're either with them or a rape advocate. People could choose to not take sides with the forge, here its going to be a little harder.
It works out the same way. The argument isn't to say "we're both anti-rape, we're both reasonable people" because then they get to say "well then its obviously better that we be extra cautious and sensitive and considerate so that we avoid any danger!" That's how rpg.net turned into the shithole it is today.
What you have to do instead is say "I'm Anti-rape, YOU aren't. You're the one USING the issue of rape as a bludgeon, warping and distorting language and manipulating facts in order to try to get your own selfish goals".
You don't give them a leg to stand on.
RPGPundit
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553435Individuals don't have a god given right to my money, or to have their works be published, distributed, or stocked by third parties.
That doesn't mean that actions taken to silence those voices and remove those media are not censorship.
The definition of censor includes:
"any person who supervises the manners or morality of others."
"an adverse critic; faultfinder."
The people who like to censor flee from the word because they know it is 'bad'. They like to promulgate the idea that only governments can censor when that is absolutely not the case.
It's the line between "I don't like this" and "this should not exist."
Since you mention god, it's the same disingenuous bullcrap as when a born again Christian says "I don't have a religion, I have a personal relationship with god."
"It's not censorship, I just don't think anyone, anywhere, ever, should have access to things you've done."
Balderdash.
My blog entry (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/weblog) today:
Swine Pseudo-Activism
So first we had Swine Pseudo-artistry, the white-wolf crowd going around trying to subvert gaming (and ultimately destroy all the parts of gaming they didn't like) by claiming that RPGs have to be "works of art", sophisticated sensitive and brilliant.
When that tactic failed, eventually they moved on to the Swine Pseudo-intellectualism: seeking to subvert gaming by claiming that RPGs had to be academic exercises, based on "Theories", that rejected all the "incoherent" games that were merely about having fun, and that demanded that gaming be re-invented to suit the agendas of the self-styled intellectual elite at the Forge.
That has now fallen to pieces for the Swine as well. And I've been predicting that its only a matter of time before some creative Swine figure out some new angle that they think will win them that long-desired control, subversion, and destruction of all that's good about the gaming hobby. I think that we may be seeing some of the Swine currently trying one of these angles out, in the form of Swine Pseudo-activism.
The Swine Pseudo-artists tried to mainly focus their assaults on the aesthetics of the game, on the setting, on things like product (with metaplot, etc), and the "fashion" of the game. When that failed, the Swine Pseudo-intellectuals put their primary focus on assaulting the foundational systems of the game, not just game mechanics but also the baseline mechanical assumptions of what defines an RPG, trying to change those definitions to suit their agenda. They were repulsed.
Now, they are going to try to subvert gaming by attacking neither setting nor system nor underlying definitions, but by attacking the social structures of the hobby; by accusing the hobby of perpetuating crimes against "social justice", in other words the dominant morality as defined by a group of self-styled paragons of sensitivity in certain highly restricted bubbles of quasi-intellectual feminist-marxist liberalism; ironically, they're taking something straight out of the Pat Pulling playbook by claiming that RPGs are immoral, these people who claim to love gaming. Strange way to show it.
The case bubble they're working with is well-chosen by these Swine, starting out with one of the dubious undercurrents of the hobby and bringing up a subject no right-minded person could possibly find any question with: rape. There's no debate on any side anywhere (except maybe among absolute lunatics) that rape is a terrible thing, so it'll make a handy little word (as it has for second-wave feminists for decades now) to stretch, redefine and misuse as a bludgeon to try to push through an agenda. No one wants to be painted as being "for" rape. And the target these people have set their eyes on, or rather the patsy they're using as bait for bigger fish, is James Desborough, writer of a number of RPG products (in my opinion of questionable worth) like Nymphology, the Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers; as well as some non-rpg products like "Hentacle", the hentai tentacle-rape card game.
I want to clarify at this point that I've never bought any of those, or any of the other books in that kind of genre (the Book of Erotic Fantasy, etc). I've always found them pretty puerile and ridiculous; and I'd certainly agree that this kind of subject matter is of interest mainly to a sophomoric and infantile kind of mind. When I reviewed the "Courtesans" RPG I said as much.
But that's neither here nor there; the Swine don't give a fuck about this guy or his books except as something that gives them the chance to draw attention to a bigger cause or movement, where they can be allowed to use "outrage" over "offensive attitudes" to dictate terms to the entire hobby and control the content of games, even get to censor who is hired to work in the hobby.
They didn't want Desborough, they wanted Mongoose, and Steve Jackson Games, publishers who had sometime in the distant past hired him to write for them. They are now campaigning to essentially destroy Mongoose, to shut it down as a company, in order to make it the cautionary example to cause the rest of the gaming industry to "fear the mob". Their agenda? To get to force gaming companies to come to them to let THEM decide what can or cannot see print.
You think I'm exaggerating? Note how the recent rpg.net threads with the accusations about how Mongoose supports "rape culture" (which also resulted in a mass culling of anyone who wouldn't immediately accept that premise on rpg.net) were matched with a thread that proposed that gaming companies should be forced to introduce a "ratings system" on their games. Note also how over on the "Something Awful" forums, who have very clearly instigated the whole movement through agents starting and fomenting the simulated "outrage" on rpg.net (and taking advantage of, or rather downright manipulating, both the modclique's natural predilections for banning opposition as well as the tendency of its Tangency hivemind to get horny at the sight of anything that gives them a chance to get their Politically Correct Groovy Cards punched, its like a perfect storm), they had a thread that essentially outlines their long-term agenda for control. This thread has since been hidden away but it was called "Feminist Gaming Issues", and it went WAY beyond the initial argument made against Desborough, that portrayals of rape were not ok, into points like:
-art must be changed in RPG books to stop portraying "male fantasy" (ie. images of scantily-clad women).
There's certainly arguments that can be made about irrational or sexist portrayals of women in RPG art, but they're advocating a forced control over what should be permitted to be published.
-That, and I quote: "your bog-standard D&D session is a facet of rape culture" where "a bunch of men (and perhaps one or two sexualized women) descend into dark depths to penetrate the underprivileged, poor denizens there with their phallic objects, and use their mysterious, privilege-generated powers to oppress and kill anyone who isn't like them."
They didn't make their opening salvo with this, obviously, because pretty much any regular gamer would find this argument beyond absurd. They'd find it ludicrous, and send these assholes packing. But that's why they're starting from something that's tricky to argue against, and moving toward this kind of bullshit, with which they hope to end up smothering the hobby with once they've gained enough influence to not be stopped.
They go on in that thread to talk about the problem of "violence" and how all violence (including any and all combat in RPGs) is a product of "rape culture", and also secret racism as mentioned above. Their solution? Again, I quote: "make games that are about pure collaborative storytelling, or just existing[\i] in a strange way".
Funny, how by what surely must be sheer coincidence, their proposed end result is exactly the same kind of games that the last batch of Swine wanted!
They go as far as to argue that people who play regular RPGs probably need therapy after each session to help them "understand" how the violence they're "perpetuating" in the game is "completely unacceptable", and that the playing of these sorts of RPGs "glorifies criminal behavior" until they stop participating in these RPGs. They presented a way of trying to hide said therapy as part of the gaming session.
They will expand from "rape is bad", which is an obvious no-brainer that they'll nevertheless attempt to twist into things that have fuck all to do with that initial statement, into overall assaults on RPGs in general using things like "social justice" and "minority issues", simultaneously viciously attacking RPGs while making a total MOCKERY of those real issues, in the same way the pseudo-artist Swines made a mockery of art, and the pseudo-intellectual Swine made a mockery of intellectual pursuits.
They'll be quite willing to drag the credibility of very real, real world issues like rape, sexism, racism, and homophobia through the absolute muck in order to engage in their pogroms against the hobby that has twice-before rejected their attempts to take it over.
So what do we do?
There are some who think that negotiating with them will make them stop. It won't, that will only be what encourages them. Others have argued that they have to be reasoned with, argued with in good faith for the "good of the hobby".
But that's just it, you can't argue in good faith with a group that has NO good faith. This is the typical naive error that the Gramscian socialist-types love to see people fall for. If the Swine are not arguing in good faith, but rather want to use the debate as a platform by which to hammer through their agenda for change (whose fairy-tale wishlist includes, as mentioned above, veto power over who gets hired, what gets published, what kind of art an RPG book is allowed to have, a near-total removal of combat from RPGs, control over all art, and mandated officially sanctioned control and quotas over portrayal of women and minorities (including fictional minorities) in all RPG products) then rational debate gets you NOWHERE. On the contrary, it becomes their weapon, to get what they want.
You can see it perfectly in the history of the Forge and their tactics, and remember these are some of the same Swine, just trying a different tactic now (as I said, before it was pseudo-intellectualism, now its pseudo-activism); they ran all over everyone who tried to engage in "rational debate" with them because they understood how to CONTROL LANGUAGE, by allowing THEM to define what a roleplaying game was, by allowing them to decide that the debate would be couched within GNS theory, by letting them manipulate all the preconditions of the debate, they were pissing their pants with glee at all the idiots who thought that trying to reason with them would work. Since, again, their motive was not "Come, let us reason together", it was to destroy the hobby as we know it and replace it with something completely different that they could be in charge of.
The way I beat the Forge was by playing their own game, better than they did. And that's how you'll beat these guys. You don't reason with them, you beat them by taking all their extremist techniques and turning it back on them; by controlling the language and refusing to give up that ground to the other side, refusing to let them claim the moral high ground while they simultaneously try to redefine the meaning of things like "rape" or "racism" into non-existence just to serve their own nefarious motives, and by making sure you reveal any and all said underlying motives the other side holds. By undermining their facade of both respectability and their (false) moral high ground at every opportunity.
That's how they'll be stopped.
RPGPundit
Quote from: 1989;553437I see a lot of fear on this thread. I can't believe it.
Don't hand your balls over to this lying feminist.
She's not even worthy of a response.
Just ignore her. Everyone. Just ignore her.
All of this is accurate save the part about fear. There is reason to fear because people ARE handing over their balls and that has a knock on effect.
Quote from: The Traveller;553432Left, right, thats pointless here. As in not the point.
I didn't mean to turn it into a left-vs.-right thing; I'm pointing out that these tactics were codified, described and have been effectively executed for quite some time, and thus far the usual targets have not been able to develop a consistently effective defense that does not consist of using the same tactics back.
So if one does not want to stoop to the "pick a target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it" mantra, how does one respond?
As an aside: Ben, by this point I don't really think it matters much whether MalaDicta is a deliberately lying sadist or a poor misunderstood victim lashing out blindly; a rabid dog is still dangerous regardless of whether it knows what it's doing. Even if MalaDicta is completely
non compos mentis and not legally responsible for her actions, she's still (probably) doing significant damage to Mongoose and James Deborough's reputation and livelihood, and I think legal steps to forestall that are worth considering.
One ironic twist to this is that should Mongoose choose to sue MalaDicta, they're actually got it
easier because she's in Canada. This country has some of the most batshit crazy reverse onus libel laws in the Commonwealth.
Quote from: GRIM;553440It's the line between "I don't like this" and "this should not exist."
Ah, but that's not what's going on, is it? Anyone can publish all they want and the rest of us are free to make our opinions known about those works and convince others to be, or not be, involved in them.
Not knowing enough about the situation I make no judgements about your work. But you are not being censored. You are free to seek other publishers/distribution chains or self-publish.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553439The goal is always to convince everyone else; and if you go into a debate with them where you are expecting them to act in good faith, you'll be butchered and they will win because they'll manipulate and control all the terms of the debate.
You miss what I'm saying, Pundit. I already tried the good faith thing. I even set a test for the rpgnet brass when that wasn't working, and took it all the way to the top; they failed. Believe me the scales have fallen.
They won't argue in good faith? Highlight their bad faith. Controlling the terms of the debate is very easy once you realise the real agenda being played out. So we're in agreement - all I'm saying is that its important to maintain a certain standard of debate, sticking only to hard facts for example, or risk radicalising people who didn't really care.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553439What you have to do instead is say "I'm Anti-rape, YOU aren't. You're the one USING the issue of rape as a bludgeon, warping and distorting language and manipulating facts in order to try to get your own selfish goals".
Yes, exactly what I'm saying. Just get all your ducks in a row first.
Have you looked at what's going on here? Some of your latest membership are storygamers, who know well the reputation of the place. You have left and right standing shoulder to shoulder in outrage.
Everybody is slowly waking up to the threat the six-liners pose to something we all deeply enjoy.
To derail this train, use the facts.
To knock rpgnet out of the running, build a greater creative trust here.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553446Ah, but that's not what's going on, is it? Anyone can publish all they want and the rest of us are free to make our opinions known about those works and convince others to be, or not be, involved in them.
Not knowing enough about the situation I make no judgements about your work. But you are not being censored. You are free to seek other publishers/distribution chains or self-publish.
We are not going to agree on this point and I think these kinds of people resort to lying in order to do an end run around the protections we have against govt censure.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553446Not knowing enough about the situation
Just read this thread through; its quite illuminating.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553446Ah, but that's not what's going on, is it? Anyone can publish all they want and the rest of us are free to make our opinions known about those works and convince others to be, or not be, involved in them.
Telling people not to buy a product is fine.
Telling people not to buy completely unrelated products to make a publisher stop selling books that are otherwise selling, is despicable, cowardly bullshit of the highest order.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553441My blog entry (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/weblog) today:
Swine Pseudo-Activism
(...)
The way I beat the Forge was by playing their own game, better than they did. And that's how you'll beat these guys. You don't reason with them, you beat them by taking all their extremist techniques and turning it back on them; by controlling the language and refusing to give up that ground to the other side, refusing to let them claim the moral high ground while they simultaneously try to redefine the meaning of things like "rape" or "racism" into non-existence just to serve their own nefarious motives, and by making sure you reveal any and all said underlying motives the other side holds. By undermining their facade of both respectability and their (false) moral high ground at every opportunity.
That's how they'll be stopped.
RPGPundit
OK. I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I see where you're coming from.
Now about that last part. What do we know about these guys so far that fits the bill here, as far as the lies, the underlying motives, the way they tried to redefine "rape" and so on. Let's count the clips and ammo here. What evidence have we got, exactly? (yeah I know we'll repeat ourselves, but I think that may be worth the effort here)
Quote from: Benoist;553453OK. I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I see where you're coming from.
Now about that last part. What do we know about these guys so far that fits the bill here, as far as the lies, the underlying motives, the way they tried to redefine "rape" and so on. Let's count the clips and ammo here. What evidence have we got, exactly? (yeah I know we'll repeat ourselves, but I think that may be worth the effort here)
There are the surveys that are given to women that define "rape" as any kind of sexual physical contact consensual or not or actual sexual acts or what would be defined as foreplay as "rape". Is that what you're asking? It's a redefinition of terms and moving the goalposts argument as clear as day in the classic sense.
Quote from: Marleycat;553454There are the surveys that are given to women that define "rape" as any kind of sexual physical contact consensual or not or actual sexual acts or what would be defined as foreplay as "rape". Is that what you're asking?
I'm more thinking of actual facts as they pertain to the whole shitstorm unfolding as far as the RPG world is concerned. The actual situation we're talking about here.
So. Did Ms. Cooper come out to say that's the kind of definition of "rape" she talks about when talking about her experiences in conventions, here? Has she made any actual statement that would shed some light on what she means one way or the other?
There's the actual lying about the blog post about "rape is a great narrative device" too.
Then there's the evidence showing that the whole thing was turned into a shitstorm from SA. Do we have any hard evidence on that?
Anything that would lend some substance and credence to all we're saying here beyond "she sounds like a lib activist because I knew some at university". Cold, hard, facts, quotes, links to evidence and posts and comments and all that.
Pundit, the "dungeon crawls are rape culture" came from somethingawful, not rpg.net.
Don't get me wrong, most of SA's "traditional" games forum are angry forgist swine, 4vengers and so on, samey-same as rpg.net, but it is a distinction.
Also, the mods there locked the thread in question and and moved it to another forum, which left more than a few posters complaining.
Quote from: jadrax;553450Telling people not to buy a product is fine.
Telling people not to buy completely unrelated products to make a publisher stop selling books that are otherwise selling, is despicable, cowardly bullshit of the highest order.
You are incorrect. You are informing the seller of your displeasure with their practices. You are free to spend your money where you wish and to advocate that others do likewise. The seller will then have to make decision about where to put their resources.
There is no unlawful coercion in those practices. There is not even anything unethical or immoral about it. Voting with your pocketbook is an ancient tradition.
They are not doing an end-run around government censure. They are exercising their rights to advocate a position.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553394No. This is the typical naive error that the Gramscian socialist-types love to see people try. If they're not arguing in good faith then rational debate gets you NOWHERE.
Which again is why I no longer see a point in posting on (or even reading) RPG.net.
JG
The thing about Grim's work.
It is uninteresting to me, I will probably no ever buy any of what I've seen of his. It doesn't offend me, but at the same time its not my thing. It seems a bit immature.
And honestly, telling people you don't want to buy it and why is fine. Its telling people you don't want to buy it, and misquoting the author, and misrepresenting the author, then doing guilt by association on publishers that haven't employed him in YEARS (Mongoose, SJG, etc.) with the author (who is then so buried in evil buzzwords that most people will never see it objectively) that is crossing the line into what the fuck.
Quote from: Benoist;553456I'm more thinking of actual facts as they pertain to the whole shitstorm unfolding as far as the RPG world is concerned. The actual situation we're talking about here.
So. Did Ms. Cooper come out to say that's the kind of definition of "rape" she talks about when talking about her experiences in conventions, here? Has she made any actual statement that would shed some light on what she means one way or the other?
There's the actual lying about the blog post about "rape is a great narrative device" too.
Then there's the evidence showing that the whole thing was turned into a shitstorm from SA. Do we have any hard evidence on that?
Anything that would lend some substance and credence to all we're saying here beyond "she sounds like a lib activist because I knew some at university". Cold, hard, facts, quotes, links to evidence and posts and comments and all that.
There's a great timeline on the dickwolf thing, to show a previous pattern emerging, and there's a sentence I never thought I'd type.
Number of people banned from the thread and from the entire site on rpgnet, from one side and the other, should be relatively easy to put together. Likewise plenty of quotes from mods actively blocking opposing views. This shows the agenda, if hordes of otherwise productive posters permabanned due to tangency dogpiles wasn't enough. I bet you could build up a graph over time actually showing the sequestration as it progressed.
Massive prejuidice from the six-liners in terms of obliviousness to her husband issuing an actual physical threat, while a very roundabout retort was held up to the sky as an example of a rape apologist defending violence.
Lots really, thats just the immediate ones.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553459You are incorrect. You are informing the seller of your displeasure with their practices. You are free to spend your money where you wish and to advocate that others do likewise. The seller will then have to make decision about where to put their resources.
There is no unlawful coercion in those practices. There is not even anything unethical or immoral about it. Voting with your pocketbook is an ancient tradition.
They are not doing an end-run around government censure. They are exercising their rights to advocate a position.
Except after informing Mongoose of her displeasure, Malyn Cooper/MalaDicta went on to create a false/defamatory petition against the game companies, which is unethical and immoral.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553441My blog entry (http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/weblog) today:
The way I beat the Forge was by playing their own game, better than they did. And that's how you'll beat these guys. You don't reason with them, you beat them by taking all their extremist techniques and turning it back on them; by controlling the language and refusing to give up that ground to the other side, refusing to let them claim the moral high ground while they simultaneously try to redefine the meaning of things like "rape" or "racism" into non-existence just to serve their own nefarious motives, and by making sure you reveal any and all said underlying motives the other side holds. By undermining their facade of both respectability and their (false) moral high ground at every opportunity.
That's how they'll be stopped.
RPGPundit
OK, well how does this apply in terms to the practical debate, in particular to saving Mongoose from these tactics?
JG
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553463And honestly, telling people you don't want to buy it and why is fine. Its telling people you don't want to buy it, and misquoting the author, and misrepresenting the author, then doing guilt by association on publishers that haven't employed him in YEARS (Mongoose, SJG, etc.) with the author (who is then so buried in evil buzzwords that most people will never see it objectively) that is crossing the line into what the fuck.
Again, not commenting on the specific situation but generally: You are correct, except for the publisher bit. Informing a publisher that you find X reprehensible and will not purchase from them because of their support is perfectly fine.
'What the fuck?!' is a good way to put it.
Personally, I think Maladicta is *probably* lying or stretching the truth so much that she is breaking the laws of physics. She *might* be telling the truth, but my gut says she is not. I am not going to lie, as I was catching up reading the threads on rpgnet of this clusterfuck and seeing her flat out lie in her petition. I thought "I wonder how long till she uses the 'she was raped card'". I was not surprised when she did. I am NOT saying she was never raped, however based on her actions, I am extremely skeptical. I don't know her personally, but I do know her type based on what I have seen.
I respects grim's stance of not suing her. However, I really think he should, and probably sue some of the rpgnet mods as well. They are using their influence to ONLY reinforce her story while banning anybody who argues against it. They are helping to spread the lie and ruining grims financial and personal life.
The people orchestrating this are rabid dogs that should be put down. If nothing is done, I suspect this same attack will be used again and again to take out ANYTHING anybody finds offensive.
They ARE pushing for censorship when you look behind the curtain. It drives me nuts when you have a group that instead of ignoring what they don't like, they want to destroy it and prevent others, who actually like the stuff from enjoying it.
What I find funny about those using RPG's (and other gaming hobbies/media) books as supporting rape, is that they ignore the huge rape supporting material that is in every bookstore....women romance novels. Seriously, have you ever flipped through them? Especially the supernatural ones? 0_0 Why does that get a free pass? Its a media that promotes rape, lets them go after that and see what they kind of reaction they get.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553467Again, not commenting on the specific situation but generally: You are correct, except for the publisher bit. Informing a publisher that you find X reprehensible and will not purchase from them because of their support is perfectly fine.
'What the fuck?!' is a good way to put it.
Once again, it has been years. As far as I know (Grim could correct me), Mongoose and SJG haven't employed him in any way for quite a while. And had not, to my knowledge, published anything of the sort since then.
And the petitions really seemed to imply otherwise.
And when you add on the redefinition of terms used to target Grim, they were then transferred to these companies, and their names were dragged through the mud, using the same misquoting and misrepresentation as was done to Grim.
I'm not even in support of Grim's work. I honestly, don't CARE about it. But if people are going to make accusations, I just want them to be accurate so that people reading these petitions can make their buying choices based on reality rather than agenda laden misrepresentation.
Actually, there's been quite a lot of criticism of a lot of that shit, from moderates and extremists alike. I've read a lot of flak against the Twilight series' rampant sexism, or the fuckedupedness of the Anita Blake novels, and so forth.
I don't think much effort is put into drugstore romances though because I think even the women who read them would universally acknowledge them as trash lit.
It's like how you don't bother with detailed criticism of Jersey Shore. Everyone knows it's trash, its just preaching to the choir.
I had wrote up a rant, but then I realised it just wasn't worth it. So I'm going to buy a Traveller book.
Quote from: James Gillen;553466OK, well how does this apply in terms to the practical debate, in particular to saving Mongoose from these tactics?
JG
By making a great deal of noise, like we're doing here, turning around the direction of the debate. It may or may not save Mongoose in particular, but in the longer-term it will save the hobby.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ladybird;553474I had wrote up a rant, but then I realised it just wasn't worth it. So I'm going to buy a Traveller book.
You know, I do have two friends who have an odd habit of trying to kill each others characters, who have never played Paranoia.
I think I'm going to pick up some of the 25th anniversary stuff.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553459You are incorrect. You are informing the seller of your displeasure with their practices. You are free to spend your money where you wish and to advocate that others do likewise. The seller will then have to make decision about where to put their resources.
There is no unlawful coercion in those practices. There is not even anything unethical or immoral about it. Voting with your pocketbook is an ancient tradition.
They are not doing an end-run around government censure. They are exercising their rights to advocate a position.
I don't have huge problems with people not buying any Mongoose product because of one book from 2002 they don't like. There are a lot of stupid people out there and their is not a lot you can do about them.
What I do object to is people encouraging other people to boycott a publisher instead of boycotting a specific work (or even author). That is the despicable, cowardly bullshit. It means they are personally prepared to advocate that other writers, who are completely fucking unconnected to this, should lose out on selling their work, because of something they happen to share a Publisher with someone else. Fuck that concept and all who fucking sail in it.
Quote from: Ladybird;553474I had wrote up a rant, but then I realised it just wasn't worth it. So I'm going to buy a Traveller book.
yep, that's the only thing worth doing in this whole thing IMO. trying to choose which one to get, now.
Quote from: Ladybird;553347Okay, let's stop this here. Nobody is saying that - I don't think MalaDicta has referenced the Dickwolf writeup; if she had even seen it, I suspect you'd know about it by now.
I'm the one that's pressed the dickwolf writeup issue this afternoon, and Benoist pretty much nails my thoughts on it.
You are taking what I said in isolation, and entirely too literally. For the record MalaDicta is citing Desborough's entire body of work as general evidence of his misogyny and therefore his contribution to rape culture and her entire argument for his censure as a 'rape supporter' hinges on the audience accepting 'rape culture' as a thing.
If you accept that 'rape culture' is a thing and that Grim contributes to it, then you are accepting that he is a 'rape supporter' and therefore she never "lied", which is something she nor her supporters cop to doing. That's because they don't see it as lying.
The point isn't about the presence or absence of the dickwolf in the conversation. It's the idea that anything that Desborough wrote could possibly qualify him for being a 'rape supporter' without literally advocating or committing rape in real life.
MalaDicta is saying that supporting rape culture makes you a rape supporter and writing things like Grim writes is supporting rape culture, so the act of advocating people going out and raping, and writing Desborough-esque material are morally equivalent, when in fact there is no moral equivalency at all between statting a dickwolf, or making a Hentai-spoof tentacle rape game or anything at all in the Munchkin's Guide and actually promoting rape in real life. There is a whole world of difference between these activities.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;553476You know, I do have two friends who have an odd habit of trying to kill each others characters, who have never played Paranoia.
I think I'm going to pick up some of the 25th anniversary stuff.
The Mongoose stuff now is reputedly better than the older material, because it's explicit about the different ways people like to play (I quite like "I draw my laser" comedies of errors, misunderstandings, and stupid science, personally) and provides guidelines for each of the three main styles; stupid, semi-serious, and dead serious, and all of those would make great games. I think they've also updated the setting a bit, so it's more a parody of the 00's than the 80's, but that just means that the jokes will actually make sense to younger players.
Paranoia, with the right group, all at roughly the same experience level, all wanting basically the same game style, is great. There are more variables that can go wrong than in most games - a clash of game style expectations will result in a terrible evening's play, because it is essentially a PvP game, so mixing utter newbies with experienced players is a terrible idea - but when it goes right, it will go really well.
Quote from: beeber;553478yep, that's the only thing worth doing in this whole thing IMO. trying to choose which one to get, now.
The key point is, you only get one vote if you sign a petition - and frankly, a hamster running over your keyboard could do the same thing.
But if you want to really show your support, you've got 29.95 (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller/core-rulebooks-accessories/traveller-core-rulebook.html) votes to cast.
Quote from: Ladybird;553483The key point is, you only get one vote if you sign a petition - and frankly, a hamster running over your keyboard could do the same thing.
But if you want to really show your support, you've got 29.95 (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller/core-rulebooks-accessories/traveller-core-rulebook.html) votes to cast.
I got this one, and it's good stuff.
Likewise, RuneQuest II/Legend is good stuff. Go get yourself some if you guys haven't already.
Quote from: Ladybird;553483The Mongoose stuff now is reputedly better than the older material, because it's explicit about the different ways people like to play (I quite like "I draw my laser" comedies of errors, misunderstandings, and stupid science, personally) and provides guidelines for each of the three main styles; stupid, semi-serious, and dead serious, and all of those would make great games. I think they've also updated the setting a bit, so it's more a parody of the 00's than the 80's, but that just means that the jokes will actually make sense to younger players.
Paranoia, with the right group, all at roughly the same experience level, all wanting basically the same game style, is great. There are more variables that can go wrong than in most games - a clash of game style expectations will result in a terrible evening's play, because it is essentially a PvP game, so mixing utter newbies with experienced players is a terrible idea - but when it goes right, it will go really well.
Ahah, I've played in a few games back in the 90s, and I absolutely love the whacky antics of PvP involved. The reason I'm surprised I haven't played it with two of my regulars is that killing each other is what they do. Even when its not appropriate. Even when its causing GM facepalm.
We had a game of L5R that ended in the first 30 minutes with a near TKP (one character survived watching the whole thing) from the players just meeting each other for the first time on a bridge without ever encountering an enemy. As their distrust and imagined slights to each other on the bridge broiled out into an illegal duel which killed one party member led to another illegal duel which ended in a kharmic strike that killed both of them.
My character watched from the sidelines in awe. The GM just kind of sat there dumbstruck.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553439The goal is always to convince everyone else; and if you go into a debate with them where you are expecting them to act in good faith, you'll be butchered and they will win because they'll manipulate and control all the terms of the debate.
It works out the same way. The argument isn't to say "we're both anti-rape, we're both reasonable people" because then they get to say "well then its obviously better that we be extra cautious and sensitive and considerate so that we avoid any danger!" That's how rpg.net turned into the shithole it is today.
What you have to do instead is say "I'm Anti-rape, YOU aren't. You're the one USING the issue of rape as a bludgeon, warping and distorting language and manipulating facts in order to try to get your own selfish goals".
You don't give them a leg to stand on.
RPGPundit
Excellent point, that goes back to my whole I reject the messenger argument. I see plans within plans. (2000+ posts of threads and brow-beating/bans to secure their position. I am glad that SJG never responded to them. Especially on RPG.net)
As I mentioned, Ettin and his crew at SA/grognards.txt troll for this stuff. Then he colluded with the TBP Mods to put together a HEAVILY editoralized version of events, with lots of incidental negative details (i.e. Skarka/Darkmagic), plus riding the current wave of gaming=rape culture stuff. It was like Al Sharpton jumping on the latest racism controversy to score points. I see Maladicta as a bit of a Pawn/Sacrifical Lamb. The Trolling for Great Justice crowd jumped all over it.
I also agree with Grim that this is an attempt at censorship. I don't know if this is an American, or Anglophone thing but the idea that only a formal 'institution' is capable of censorship is nonsense.
I mean technically you could be banished from your country for political speech and you would still be free to rant and rave from abroad. Likewise if they threw you in prison you'd still be free to speak to your heart's content from inside your cell. That's still censorship though.
What is being done here is an attempt to harass people into self-censorship, which is still censorship. The idea is that anything that promotes 'rape culture' and the kinds of people that contribute to it need to be permanently removed from the public sphere.
A tiny minority of people are trying to make their sting felt so strongly that it will discourage publishers from getting near anything that this tiny minority might find controversial regardless if there is a market for it or not. Harassing people until they shut up is the most common form of censorship, especially on the Internet where you can simply drop dox on anyone who you disagree with and they will usually flee at the first sign of real-life repercussions from the activities of their online persona.
If attempting to spark a deliberate media campaign of defamation is a legitimate reaction to speech then in all fairness RPGnet should release the personal information of all participating parties so that there can be a counter petition against the actual people involved, their families, employers, and co-workers in a completely reciprocal fashion.
If this tactic is perfectly legitimate then there should be the prospect of some reciprocity, yes? Should I not be able to write Ettin or MalaDicta's employers and inform them that I'll be boycotting and picketing their business for choosing to employ them?
The only reason what is happening now is legal is because it is mostly anonymous, it's on the Internet, and no one involved has the money or motivation to hire lawyers for an international defamation/libel case.
It's completely duplicitous to claim that the intention of character assassination isn't to prevent the target's ideas from reaching his audience, and sending a message to anyone that has similar ideas to self-censor.
What continues to amaze me is that of all the media out there that makes fun of rape and other horrible things, people pick on a web comic and blog entry by a relatively minor role-playing author to go off on. That's like tackling organized crime by going after a kid stealing lunch money from his classmates.
Want to see mainstream media jokes about rape? (All of the following links are potentially NSFW.) We've got My Cousin Vinny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F55IwartzTo), Trading Places (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8uTY4p_WyI), Sam Kinison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np67piTSAzk)(*), and, for something more recent, a skit on Saturday Night Live (http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/scared-straight/1388773). Yes, rape is horrible but people make jokes about all sorts of horrible things other than rape. Both Dead Like Me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM3BTBuevmw) and Pushing Daisies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRC_zw0q58Q) were full of humor from horrible deaths. Korgoth of Barbaria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJ8G_ou6Dc) is full of people dying horrible but humorous deaths and here is Sam Kinison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7ehccspao) joking about starving Africans. And it's all terrible if you take it seriously, so it it horrible to laugh at it and should it all be boycotted or banned?
I'm reminded of a conversation on a convention panel years ago when Ken Rolston talked about experiencing a moment of cognitive dissonance when he realized he was laughing at the random torture table he was writing for the Paranoia RPG while being a member of Amnesty International. No, real torture isn't funny but people can find humor in it in the context of a game like Paranoia.
But if they really believe it is so terrible and believe it really created the horrors that it makes fun of, then I think they need to aim to ire a little higher on the food chain to things like mainstream movies and Saturday Night Live rather than where they are aiming it now.
But even if they wanted to focus their outrage to the RPG hobby and believe even contemplating a rapemonster or including horrific rape in a game book is an unforgivable thought crime that warrants action, aren't there worse targets out there? What game, once an RPGnet darling and often still praised, not only contains this passage:
QuoteIn the room, along with Miscreant, were eleven prisoners, including myself. We were shackled to muscle-covered walls by braided veins. In our current predicament, our former affiliations meant nothing. [...] [We were equal now through circumstance. In the past week, each of the others had had their bones snapped through torque pressure, their limbs pulled away like taffy and their bodies defiled through the multiple genitalia lining Miscreant’s underside. I was spared this only because of my recent arrival. The prisoners retained their resolve through it all, however, and endured the beast’s attention like good soldiers. Again I felt guilty, for I might have been able to save them, but I needed what they knew, as did Miscreant.
...but went on in a later supplement to include a gang of children raping another child? (**) Does that warrant a boycott of the companies still selling PDFs of those books? And what about Vincent Baker abd the fine people over a story-games.com talking about his game Poison'd in a thread titled "Light-hearted incest (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/7783/light-hearted-incest/p1)":
"
You know how Poison'd often leads to rape within the first half hour? You sit down with a group of perfectly nice people and within half an hour they're rolling for rape. And all this happens in a happy, joyful way."
Doesn't a game that not only rapidly lead to rape but does so in a "happy, joyful way" deserve some condemnation and the author and all associated with him a boycott if GRIM deserves one?
So if the issue is really the subject matter and content, why is the ire so selective?
(And for the record, I do think rape and prison rape are terrible and do think some of the material I posted above goes too far.)
(*) As a disclaimer, I once ran a Warhammer FRP game where a player, who was playing a vampire, would not stop quoting from that Kinison routine and laughing maniacally about it so I obliged him with some unexpected NPC company of the sort described in the joke since his PC was undead. I'm not proud of it and wouldn't recommend it as a good GMing technique, but it stopped him from laughing about that joke.
(**) As another disclaimer, I have a writing credit for the game in question, though not the particular supplements I'm talking about here.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;553494If this tactic is perfectly legitimate then there should be the prospect of some reciprocity, yes? Should I not be able to write Ettin or MalaDicta's employers and inform them that I'll be boycotting and picketing their business for choosing to employ them?
that would be AWESOME :D
Quote from: beeber;553504that would be AWESOME :D
I don't think that would be any more awesome than their actions are and if MalaDicta has serious problems (which she may), I don't think driving her off the deep end is any more appropriate than sending her rape threats would be (whether they actually happened or not). Two wrongs still don't make a right.
Quote from: Sigmund;553268I don't think (b) stretches credibility at all actually.
Which raises the following question: If you become aware that a serious crime, such as rape, may have occurred but not been reported to the police (leaving the perpetrator free to re-offend), should you not report said suspicions to the police, so that they may investigate?
Quote from: Dodger;553508Which raises the following question: If you become aware that a serious crime, such as rape, may have occurred but not been reported to the police (leaving the perpetrator free to re-offend), should you not report said suspicions to the police, so that they may investigate?
While I understand the skepticism, people do sub-optimal and even stupid things all the time, even when it hurts or kills them. Why do abused women stay with their abusers? Why are so many rapes not reported? See also the Bystander Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect) for one reason why other people don't always help.
Quote from: RPGPundit;553475By making a great deal of noise, like we're doing here, turning around the direction of the debate. It may or may not save Mongoose in particular, but in the longer-term it will save the hobby.
RPGPundit
I've been mostly silent on this issue up to now; I'm a relative newbie at the RPGsite and I've been gathering my thoughts. Or at least trying to; my thoughts are notoriously hard to gather. (Scatter-brained doesn't even begin to cover it.) Nothing really gelled until I read your blog post - which was excellent, by the way - but then something hit me.
Hard.
One tactic which has been quite effective in dealing with Swine (as you call them, and I agree) who go too far is to go after their advertisers. It worked when Rush Limbaugh engaged in 'slut shaming'; he lost millions in advertising when his sponsors left en masse. It also worked when the [strike]Heritage Foundation[/strike] Heartland Intitute's billboard campaign with "Unabomber as global warming supporter" backfired on them; they lost so much advertising their DC offices were nearly shut down.
And it shouldn't be that hard to get the attention of RPG.net's advertisers at this point. Right now every author, publisher, artist and anyone else on the creative side of RPG's is very nervously looking at their work and wondering if it would offend the self-appointed censors of RPG.net. It should be clear to anyone in the industry that when the RPG.net forum mob are done targeting Mongoose, they could set their sights on pretty much anyone else. It is not in
anyone's interest to buy advertising from people who not only condone, but actively encourage this type of behavior.
I'd like to see an organized campaign to get RPG.net's advertisers to pull out. For my part, I'm stating for the record right here, right now, I'm not buying anything from anyone who advertises there. And anyone who feels, as I do, that RPG.net has become a detriment to the RPG industry should do the same. This is how you fight them: make it clear that their behavior is driving away business. If this idea gets enough traction, it'll make an impact on them, just like it did on Mongoose. They might even be forced to disavow the individual responsible for their woes. At the very least it'll hit their bottom line, which is more likely to change their ways than attempting to reason with them.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553435Individuals don't have a god given right to my money, or to have their works be published, distributed, or stocked by third parties.
Third parities don't have the obligation to do your bidding or carry and not carry who you say just because you have money. I have money too, and my tastes and desires might be different than yours. It's also quickly becoming apparent I have a great deal more sense.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;553511For my part, I'm stating for the record right here, right now, I'm not buying anything from anyone who advertises there. And anyone who feels, as I do, that RPG.net has become a detriment to the RPG industry should do the same.
By all means write to whatever organisation owns RPG.net and point out how unhappy you are, but please stop with the boycott threats. The companies that advertise with RPG.net have done nothing wrong and it is all handled through a third party agency anyway.
Quote from: John Morrow;553509While I understand...
No, you're missing the point.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553446Ah, but that's not what's going on, is it? Anyone can publish all they want and the rest of us are free to make our opinions known about those works and convince others to be, or not be, involved in them.
Not knowing enough about the situation I make no judgements about your work. But you are not being censored. You are free to seek other publishers/distribution chains or self-publish.
Actually, yeah it is. Try to catch up if you're going to attempt to comment please.
Quote from: Dodger;553514No, you're missing the point.
Which is, then?
I get a small chuckle every time I see a Mongoose banner ad pop up when I go over to check out the train wreck.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553459You are incorrect. You are informing the seller of your displeasure with their practices. You are free to spend your money where you wish and to advocate that others do likewise. The seller will then have to make decision about where to put their resources.
There is no unlawful coercion in those practices. There is not even anything unethical or immoral about it. Voting with your pocketbook is an ancient tradition.
They are not doing an end-run around government censure. They are exercising their rights to advocate a position.
No, they are using social pressure tools inappropriately to promote an agenda based on misinformation for the purpose of harming the livelihood of someone they happen to not find to their taste but who has done nothing wrong. They are mis-characterizing his work and position for their own purposes (which happen to be preventing him from being published and to remove public access to his previous publications) and to his detriment. What they have done is slander, and they can and IMO should be sued for it.
Quote from: John Morrow;553518Which is, then?
If you become aware that a serious crime, such as rape, may have occurred but not been reported to the police (leaving the perpetrator free to re-offend), should you not report said suspicions to the police, so that they may investigate?
Hint: There are two possible answers. One of them is "Yes" and the other is "No".
Quote from: GetWrecked;553519I get a small chuckle every time I see a Mongoose banner ad pop up when I go over to check out the train wreck.
Even intellectually dishonest college-commie parlor pinks gotta get that grip.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553467Again, not commenting on the specific situation but generally: You are correct, except for the publisher bit. Informing a publisher that you find X reprehensible and will not purchase from them because of their support is perfectly fine.
'What the fuck?!' is a good way to put it.
Except just informing the publisher is not what they did. They attempted to bully the publisher into performing the censorship they want through social pressure. They used outright lies to do it, and IMO continue to do so.
Quote from: John Morrow;553502Want to see mainstream media jokes about rape?
A state congresswoman from Michigan made a snarky rape joke the other day, and it was yet another outrage. That is it was an outpouring of outrage in her support when her colleagues decided to squelch her from the warriors against 'rape culture'.
Quote from: John Morrow;553502So if the issue is really the subject matter and content, why is the ire so selective?
Because they have a tribal mentality, and aren't interested in castigating their ideological kindred. There were a lot of blog posts about the rampant sexual assaults at OWS and lots of OWS-supporting bloggers and pundits quickly put a kibosh on that message being spread because it was harmful to the cause. Especially when the victims were calling out the transgressors as known entities (ie people vetted as actual ideological allies rather than just pervy dudes there to cop a feel in the crowd).
Perhaps the absolutely hysterical concern about rape is a bit of projection going on. I'm personally not very worried that I might rape someone unless I'm constantly told how bad it is to rape someone; nor do I believe that I'm swimming in a sea of incipient rapists that might be set off into an uncontrollable rape-spree at their first dickwolf sighting.
Then again I don't hang around with people that share MalaDicta et als worldview, so maybe it is a huge problem due to tsignificant overlap between the group of people that are hysterical about fighting 'rape culture' and the ones that have issues not raping people. That would explain a lot.
Quote from: John Morrow;553502(And for the record, I do think rape and prison rape are terrible and do think some of the material I posted above goes too far.)
For the record, I and all other sane people the world over are perfectly comfortable assuming that you are opposed to rape and a long list of other violent, criminal deeds without the need for a disclaimer.
I find the entire atmosphere created by people that would demand some kind of explicit refutation of being 'pro-rape' until personally vetted by some clique of self-appointed public morality crusaders to be a cleverly backhanded insult.
I'm pretty sure if anyone so backhandedly asserted I was 'pro-rape' in real life due to my failure to fully express my disdain for rape to their personal satisfaction they would quickly learn of my relative comfort with non-sexual assault, because it really is that insulting, and does absolutely amount to an implicit accusation of being a rapist, or supporter of rapists.
Quote from: beeberthat would be AWESOME
I wasn't actually advocating this. I was attempting to point out how absurd the 'Working As Intended' argument for the legitimacy of a censorious defamation campaign really is. Because Desborough is a public figure doesn't suddenly open up him, his family, livelihood and ex-employers up to libelous defamation; and if it did it would certainly imply that this is true of any other individual for any reason at all.
I somehow feel that those that agree with this campaign or just its' methods would plea for an unprincipled exception, and claim the injustice of it all should they get doxed and face some blowback for their actions.
More broadly I was trying to point out the whole world of unprincipled exceptions that these people (the ones condescending to others in teaching about justice and fairness) have created for themselves.
Quote from: jadrax;553513By all means write to whatever organisation owns RPG.net and point out how unhappy you are, but please stop with the boycott threats. The companies that advertise with RPG.net have done nothing wrong and it is all handled through a third party agency anyway.
Yeah, pressure Skotos, if anything (They are current owners of rpg.net). I know you can make a petition at change.org! :) I'd love to see an industry embargo of RPG.net advertising for a month though. Could make for a good open letter.
Quote from: John Morrow;553507I don't think that would be any more awesome than their actions are and if MalaDicta has serious problems (which she may), I don't think driving her off the deep end is any more appropriate than sending her rape threats would be (whether they actually happened or not). Two wrongs still don't make a right.
I agree.
Quote from: Dodger;553508Which raises the following question: If you become aware that a serious crime, such as rape, may have occurred but not been reported to the police (leaving the perpetrator free to re-offend), should you not report said suspicions to the police, so that they may investigate?
In my opinion, absolutely. However the reality is if the victim does not cooperate, the police's hands are fairly tied and there's not much to be done about it. technically, knowing details of a crime and not reporting them would be obstruction, but in reality it takes more than just suspicions and vague possibilities to convict, so the system won't do much until they feel they have a shot at winning, if I understand things correctly (which is not guaranteed).
Quote from: John Morrow;553507I don't think that would be any more awesome than their actions are and if MalaDicta has serious problems (which she may), I don't think driving her off the deep end is any more appropriate than sending her rape threats would be (whether they actually happened or not). Two wrongs still don't make a right.
Yeah, Maladicta appears to have some real problems of her own, and got poster-child'd hard by Ettin & the RPG.net crew (who have not shown the 'courage' of their convictions, like Maladicta did.) . I personally like the idea going after Skotos and finding out who runs Barter town. Instant shit-storm against RPG hobby brings back to many memories of '80s satanic panic shit, so I of course don't look kindly of this program of villification and implied ur an evil-rapist by association, and people riding it to suit their agenda. And yes, Ettin I'm talking about you.
Quote from: Dodger;553522If you become aware that a serious crime, such as rape, may have occurred but not been reported to the police (leaving the perpetrator free to re-offend), should you not report said suspicions to the police, so that they may investigate?
Hint: There are two possible answers. One of them is "Yes" and the other is "No".
I don't think it's that simple in this case because so much information is missing here that (A) we don't know whether the victims would cooperate with the police if they got involved (since they obviously could have called the police themselves and may have some reason, rational or otherwise, for not doing so) and (B) even if we wanted to call the police, we have no idea what jurisdiction this happened in.
Quote from: John Morrow;553537I don't think it's that simple in this case because so much information is missing here that (A) we don't know whether the victims would cooperate with the police if they got involved (since they obviously could have called the police themselves and may have some reason, rational or otherwise, for not doing so)...
Is that a valid reason to not report a suspected crime?
Quote..and (B) even if we wanted to call the police, we have no idea what jurisdiction this happened in.
Given that fact, where would be a good starting point?
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;553511One tactic which has been quite effective in dealing with Swine (as you call them, and I agree) who go too far is to go after their advertisers. It worked when Rush Limbaugh engaged in 'slut shaming'; he lost millions in advertising when his sponsors left en masse. It also worked when the Heritage Foundation's billboard campaign with "Unabomber as global warming supporter" backfired on them; they lost so much advertising their DC offices were nearly shut down.
Except that your characterization doesn't actually match what really happened (e.g., Limbaugh was not badly hurt by the Fluke controversy (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/rush-limbaugh-minimal-impact-ad-boycott-304916) and is still going strong, it was Heartland and not Heritage that did the Unibomber ad (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/09/local/la-me-gs-unabomber-billboard-continues-to-hurt-heartland-institute-20120509)) and the attacks on Limbaugh and Heartland are the same sort of manufactured outrage and coordinated attack by rabid left-wingers that's at work in this attack on Mongoose.
Quote from: Dodger;553539Is that a valid reason to not report a suspected crime?
It can be. Not only is it problematic to force the police on a victim who doesn't want to report the crime but there is only so much the police can do about it if the victim refuses to cooperate, give details, identify their attacker, or testify in court. Lot's of bad people go free because people won't testify against them in court.
But let's ignore that for a moment and assume I want to report a possible crime to the police. Which police department do I call?
Quote from: John Morrow;553547But let's ignore that for a moment and assume I want to report a possible crime to the police. Which police department do I call?
The victim's local police department might be a good place to start, I guess...
Quote from: Dodger;553549The victim's local police department might be a good place to start, I guess...
And what is her local police department? Where does she live? And if I do find all of that out and reach them, where do I tell them the crime happened? What are the odds that there was a convention in their jurisdiction? And, do you think I'm going to get very far with the police if I can't give them any details about the crime or tell them where it happened?
ADDED: And you are demonstrating that I understood the point you were making quite well.
Quote from: John Morrow;553546Except that your characterization doesn't actually match what really happened (e.g., Limbaugh was not badly hurt by the Fluke controversy (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/rush-limbaugh-minimal-impact-ad-boycott-304916) and is still going strong, it was Heartland and not Heritage that did the Unibomber ad (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/09/local/la-me-gs-unabomber-billboard-continues-to-hurt-heartland-institute-20120509)) and the attacks on Limbaugh and Heartland are the same sort of manufactured outrage and coordinated attack by rabid left-wingers that's at work in this attack on Mongoose.
Thanks. I'll fix that "Heritage" error immediately.
Quote from: Benoist;553322STOP. That's where that stops being cool with me. Because for all the shit about being an independent entity and bullshit, there's Mongoose on the line too, and just "upping the ante" by providing ammo to the guys raging on the other side is NOT solving anything. It's just muddying the water with fucking bullshit. It's making it HARDER to know who's saying the truth, not EASIER.
What is, or isn't, cool with you isn't the point, Ben.
Maladicta and Co. want nothing more than to force their targets to shut up, abase themselves, and admit they are wrong, and failing that to put them out of business.
Can you agree with that point?
Telling GRIM to shut up is telling him, full stop, to let Maladicta and Co. win, to acede to their demands, at least in point. You may disagree with how he choses to fight back.
But guess what: You aren't the one under attack. He is.
QuoteMy opinion is that everyone should fucking chill and stop pouring gazoline on this shit, and that's exactly what GRIM is completely comfortable doing because "LOL it makes them look bad." Well fuck that. I don't give a shit about making them look bad when people's jobs are in the balance. That is selfish, self-righteous bullshit is what it is, whether you are right or wrong. It's irrelevant. It's just totally selfish crap, as far as I'm concerned.
The way I see it, telling someone to take a beating quietly, so someone else doesn't get hurt, is still telling them to take a beating quietly. Its a bullshit thing to say. Let Mongoose stand on its own history and product (or fall. have you seen the artwork in the Zhodani book? Fuck, I could hire 14 year olds who could draw better than most of that shit.). Ultimately, GRIM is responsible for.... drumroll please.... GRIM. Not Mongoose, not SJG... not the entire fucking industry. Just GRIM.
You're telling the smallest dog in the fight that he's gonna tear down the entire industry by not shutting up?
And you accuse me of hyperbole?
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553421It's not censorship.
I don't see a serious problem. Looks to me like everything is working the way it should.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553446Ah, but that's not what's going on, is it? Anyone can publish all they want and the rest of us are free to make our opinions known about those works and convince others to be, or not be, involved in them.
Not knowing enough about the situation I make no judgements about your work. But you are not being censored. You are free to seek other publishers/distribution chains or self-publish.
You, good sir, are establishing yourself as a fuckwit of the highest caliber.
There is a mountain of difference between saying "I didn't like his book. I don't think anyone should buy it." and contacting someone's employer and demanding they get fired.
And lying about why they should get fired, to boot.
"...ain't the same fucking ballpark. It ain't the same league. It ain't even the same fucking sport!" ~ Jules Winnfield
And saying dumb shit like "You are free to seek other publishers/distribution chains or self-publish." is assinine to an extreme. It's like saying "well, if you don't like the Gestapo breaking into your house in the middle of the night, you could leave the country!"
Motherfucker, please. You don't have to move to another country, to say shit ain't right in this one.
Quote from: Novastar;553560There is a mountain of difference between saying "I didn't like his book. I don't think anyone should buy it." and contacting someone's employer and demanding they get fired.
And lying about why they should get fired, to boot.
So, 'free-market capitalism' only works with completely rational actors, then?
Quote from: Spike;553556What is, or isn't, cool with you isn't the point, Ben.
Maladicta and Co. want nothing more than to force their targets to shut up, abase themselves, and admit they are wrong, and failing that to put them out of business.
Can you agree with that point?
Telling GRIM to shut up is telling him, full stop, to let Maladicta and Co. win, to acede to their demands, at least in point. You may disagree with how he choses to fight back.
But guess what: You aren't the one under attack. He is.
I agree with you, and I've seen Ben go into full-on rabid attack mode when people piss him off, so hearing him counseling patience and tolerance is....weird.
GRIM is under attack. Why should he just shut up and take it? The man is not responsible for Mongoose or the rest of the rpg industry, and most certainly has the right to defend himself, even if he only does so using the time-tested tactics of mockery. I guess I really don't see GRIM as the Big Bad Evil Guy here. At worst, he's like the Diet Coke of Evil (
just 1 calorie, not Evil enough), which is something, I guess. :cool:
Quote from: SpikeThe way I see it, telling someone to take a beating quietly, so someone else doesn't get hurt, is still telling them to take a beating quietly. Its a bullshit thing to say. Let Mongoose stand on its own history and product (or fall. have you seen the artwork in the Zhodani book? Fuck, I could hire 14 year olds who could draw better than most of that shit.). Ultimately, GRIM is responsible for.... drumroll please.... GRIM. Not Mongoose, not SJG... not the entire fucking industry. Just GRIM.
You're telling the smallest dog in the fight that he's gonna tear down the entire industry by not shutting up?
And you accuse me of hyperbole?
Pretty much. GRIM is not the "Doom-Bringer" of the rpg industry, nor is he even the "Destroyer of Mongoose" for that matter. He's just another dude on the Internet, who happens to publish a little rpg stuff that some people like or hate.
Quote from: RobMuadibYeah, I would like to see industry people quit advertising there, I saw several mongoose banners while skimming the MongRape thread. BS.
I have half a mind to waste $25 to get a banner ad linked to a 'Down with RPG.net' type deal, or at least linking to other RPG focused sites, like here and RPGgeek, rpghaven.
Focus on the Shitstorm and rpg.net thinks your rapist and morally backward Haterist, or something. Or the simplist, RPG.net = tangency.net
Part of me also wants to start a petition to hound Skotos.net (WHo owns rpg.net these days). Cause, free speech and shit.
They would never accept your money. They'd perceive it as a trolling attempt, and issue you an official warning. Save yourself the headache.
Oh, and if it matters....I registered the tangency.net url some years ago, but never actually did anything with it. Maybe I'll find a use for it at some point.
I am not telling anyone to shut up. This is what YOU took away from my posts and you are WRONG. This is NOT what I am saying. :rolleyes:
Quote from: RobMuadib;553490Excellent point, that goes back to my whole I reject the messenger argument. I see plans within plans. (2000+ posts of threads and brow-beating/bans to secure their position. I am glad that SJG never responded to them. Especially on RPG.net)
Probably because they've seen this all before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_Games,_Inc._v._United_States_Secret_Service)
JG
Quote from: John Morrow;553502What continues to amaze me is that of all the media out there that makes fun of rape and other horrible things, people pick on a web comic and blog entry by a relatively minor role-playing author to go off on. That's like tackling organized crime by going after a kid stealing lunch money from his classmates.
Want to see mainstream media jokes about rape? (All of the following links are potentially NSFW.) We've got My Cousin Vinny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F55IwartzTo), Trading Places (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8uTY4p_WyI), Sam Kinison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np67piTSAzk)(*), and, for something more recent, a skit on Saturday Night Live (http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/scared-straight/1388773). Yes, rape is horrible but people make jokes about all sorts of horrible things other than rape. Both Dead Like Me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM3BTBuevmw) and Pushing Daisies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRC_zw0q58Q) were full of humor from horrible deaths. Korgoth of Barbaria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJ8G_ou6Dc) is full of people dying horrible but humorous deaths and here is Sam Kinison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7ehccspao) joking about starving Africans. And it's all terrible if you take it seriously, so it it horrible to laugh at it and should it all be boycotted or banned?
On an Internet celebrity picture site, I just saw a pic of Jeffrey Dahmer saying "ATE PEOPLE BEFORE IT WAS COOL".
JG
Quote from: GetWrecked;553519I get a small chuckle every time I see a Mongoose banner ad pop up when I go over to check out the train wreck.
Which is another reason boycotting isn't the right tactic. The mods may be politically correct but the owners don't care if Mongoose published
Nymphology over 5 years ago if they're still giving them ad money.
JG
Quote from: StormBringer;553568So, 'free-market capitalism' only works with completely rational actors, then?
You don't have to be rational ALL the time, but you should at least TRY.
JG
Quote from: Benoist;553579I am not telling anyone to shut up. This is what YOU took away from my posts and you are WRONG. This is NOT what I am saying. :rolleyes:
Well, I apologize then. There's a lot more going on here than most other threads we have, and it's hard to keep track of who says what..
I was going to tell you all about the specific incident that "broke the camel's back" and convinced me to never post again because, as Pundit says, there is no chance of good faith at RPG.net, except when I tried to research the chain of posts for myself and the other poster in question, I got "Searching has been disabled."
So let that stand as evidence that there's no good faith: They don't want anyone else auditing them. ;)
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;553590I was going to tell you all about the specific incident that "broke the camel's back" and convinced me to never post again because, as Pundit says, there is no chance of good faith at RPG.net, except when I tried to research the chain of posts for myself and the other poster in question, I got "Searching has been disabled."
So let that stand as evidence that there's no good faith: They don't want anyone else auditing them. ;)
JG
Ah, I was thinking that someone really needs to save the forum pages somewhere in case it ends up in court. It COULD escalate later...or die out. However it is better to be safe than sorry.
Quote from: James Gillen;553590I was going to tell you all about the specific incident that "broke the camel's back" and convinced me to never post again because, as Pundit says, there is no chance of good faith at RPG.net, except when I tried to research the chain of posts for myself and the other poster in question, I got "Searching has been disabled."
So let that stand as evidence that there's no good faith: They don't want anyone else auditing them. ;)
JG
Ta da! (http://www.rpg.net/search.phtml)
You can also google site search.
Site:forums.rpg.net or to search for specific stuff you'd do as an example
Nymphology site:forums.rpg.net
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553598Ta da! (http://www.rpg.net/search.phtml)
You can also google site search.
Site:forums.rpg.net
or to search for specific stuff you'd do as an example
Nymphology site:forums.rpg.net
Thanks! But I forget what tag or title it was under.
JG
I wasn't going to do it until the new Traveller-based Prime Directive came out, but I'm gonna pick up the Mongoose Star Trek starship game.
Quote from: jadrax;553513By all means write to whatever organisation owns RPG.net and point out how unhappy you are, but please stop with the boycott threats. The companies that advertise with RPG.net have done nothing wrong and it is all handled through a third party agency anyway.
Hold on now; as much as I'm in favour of rational no-punches-pulled debate I think this idea could have some merit.
All of the adverts on rpgnet are handled by a single agency. If we make a list of all of the sites they serve up adverts on, and its not too hard to do that, and tell them we will
never click on one of their adverts as long as they continue to give money to rpgnet, that should result in some results. Also tell the sites that use them.
No reason to boycott anyone doing anything productive or gaming companies, plenty of other ways you can see them, just nail this ad network. And the next one after that and so on. If rpgnet goes into business for itself, then the message is already out that its a bad idea to advertise with them. Hell according to GMS the place is a standing joke among rpg companies anwyay, may as well seal the deal.
Simples.
Here's yet another facet most probably haven't considered: rpgnet is probably the first port of call for people who are getting back into the hobby, and more importantly new players and GMs.
Take me for example, I'm like a primeval ancient emerged from the mists of the early 90s. I've been playing since then, picked up a few books and built my own system, but for the most part I've remained entirely oblivious to the shifts and tides online. Storygaming had to be explained to me last year with large diagrams for example.
Deciding to do a bit of online research led me to set up accounts on every single rpg discussion forum there was, even here, around about the same time. This place was a lot of fun but it didn't have the creative trust of rpgnet, similar to most forums. In all innocence I even set up a forge account to talk about my game system, ignorant but determined. Its a strange and muted place these days.
Rpgnet though, was buzzing, big, lively, and with lots of great ideas. Just one problem though, any comments or jokes on issues with nothing to do with gaming attracted a swarm of more vicious and hate filled attacks than I've seen anywhere else, and I've seen some right shitholes. The atmosphere, far from being the wonderful creative madhouse I imagined it was, rather was sullen, angry, oppressive and antagonistic. And it took a while for that penny to finally drop.
The problem wasn't and isn't the creative types. You'll never see the likes of Baileywolf sticking his oar into these threads, or very rarely. It was the much larger parish of clingers on and sycophants who never contributed a damn thing hanging their own dirty landry out and strangling everyone with it.
Imagine any new entrants to the hobby following in my well meaning footsteps, only without my history in gaming, landing at rpgnet, and getting so badly stung they'd rather saw off their own fingers than roll a dice at a gaming table.
I wouldn't call it an exaggeration to say that rpgnet has had a measureably detrimental effect on the growth of the hobby as a whole.
This beast must be put down.
I decided to lend my few spare $$$ to grabbing a couple Traveller books.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553598Ta da! (http://www.rpg.net/search.phtml)
You can also google site search.
Site:forums.rpg.net
or to search for specific stuff you'd do as an example
Nymphology site:forums.rpg.net
I don't think tangency is actually indexed by google (can't be letting new players know whats waiting for them in advance now, can we), could be wrong though.
Quote from: CRKrueger;553601I wasn't going to do it until the new Traveller-based Prime Directive came out, but I'm gonna pick up the Mongoose Star Trek starship game.
I helped playtest that. :D
JG
Quote from: The Traveller;553604I don't think tangency is actually indexed by google (can't be letting new players know whats waiting for them in advance now, can we), could be wrong though.
Indeed, looks like they have a robots.txt bypass or something in vBulletin to shut down indexing it.
How rude...
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553607Indeed, looks like they have a robots.txt bypass or something in vBulletin to shut down indexing it.
How rude...
Quite telling though.
(http://cdn.instanttrap.com/trap.jpg)
Google can't index registered-only forums. It's been an issue with the search ever since they closed Tangency to lurking.
Quote from: J Arcane;553609Google can't index registered-only forums. It's been an issue with the search ever since they closed Tangency to lurking.
Gotcha, I didn't know it was no-lurkers-allowed in Tangency. That would explain it.
Quote from: J Arcane;553609Google can't index registered-only forums. It's been an issue with the search ever since they closed Tangency to lurking.
Nope, even if I can't post in a vbulletin forum without registering I can usually still see the posts and so can google. You have to deliberately go out of your way to hide them.
EDIT: which is what you're saying, got it. :D
And if the idea is to actively hide a forum like tangency, unless you register first, that really seems a lot less than innocent in light of the effects it has had.
The decision was made years ago (literally like a decade), and was made because the Tangency forum allowed adult material that the staff wasn't legally comfortable allowing to be fully public. This was after that stupid internet child protection law was passed, IIRC. The decision, as I remember it, was handed down by Skotos, not anyone actively involved in the moderation.
The conspiracy you want isn't here.
Quote from: J Arcane;553616The decision was made years ago (literally like a decade), and was made because the Tangency forum allowed adult material that the staff wasn't legally comfortable allowing to be fully public. This was after that stupid internet child protection law was passed, IIRC. The decision, as I remember it, was handed down by Skotos, not anyone actively involved in the moderation.
The conspiracy you want isn't here.
It IS letting me search Tangency and Trouble Tickets, it's just practically finding a needle in a haystack.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;553617It IS letting me search Tangency and Trouble Tickets, it's just practically finding a needle in a haystack.
JG
This is weird, I just did a search for my username there (quite specific) and a thread I started in tangency (also with some very specific keywords), didn't show up at all. Instead a thread ban from one of Those threads appeared front and centre in google. The infraction forum certainly seems to be indexed, better than anything else! :D Which probably counts as search poisoning. To the google spam report!
Well, OK, is there a way to look up your OWN history as to (say) the last ten things you posted? Cause that's disabled on the main site.
JG
Quote from: J Arcane;553616The decision was made years ago (literally like a decade), and was made because the Tangency forum allowed adult material that the staff wasn't legally comfortable allowing to be fully public. This was after that stupid internet child protection law was passed, IIRC. The decision, as I remember it, was handed down by Skotos, not anyone actively involved in the moderation.
The conspiracy you want isn't here.
That's the thing: the so called NSFW thread is perfectly safe for work in a civilised country. You don't get people posting anything more "offensive" than skimpy outfits and mild violence.
Quote from: James Gillen;553621Well, OK, is there a way to look up your OWN history as to (say) the last ten things you posted? Cause that's disabled on the main site.
JG
Well you can use your name in the google site search.
James Gillen site:forums.rpg.netBut
all search functions are worthless on TBP and since finding your own posts by your user name is a search the board has to perform... :banghead:
Not having search on a forum is really a pain in the ass regardless of their reasoning for not having it (We're so huge we can't have it on because it slogs our shittronic servers, because fuck you we like out Apple IIe servers!).
Quote from: Ian Warner;553622That's the thing: the so called NSFW thread is perfectly safe for work in a civilised country. You don't get people posting anything more "offensive" than skimpy outfits and mild violence.
Here is the US of A. We are ok with gore galore but god forbid a pear of lively breasts or a gentleman's muscled rear show onscreen. People loose their fucking mind. It's actually kind of hilarious because while they are crusading against it, little Timmy is surfing pr0n on 4chan and calling people "faggot".
As mentioned earlier, when that ridiculous Protect the children law passed, they simply can't take the chance anymore soandso would post something some litigious happy parent would see.
Mildly derailing thread-wise, move along!
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553607Indeed, looks like they have a robots.txt bypass or something in vBulletin to shut down indexing it.
How rude...
There are some people who consider that their careers could potentially be jeopardised if their employers saw some of their posts, that promoted views their employers would disapprove of; they consider that items could be taken out of context and used unfairly against them. And we're against that sort of thing, right?
I'd still like to be able to search Tangency, but bringing up people's posting history seems to be frowned upon and treated as a personal attack there, so... meh. Tangency isn't worth the amount of thought we give it here.
Quote from: Ladybird;553626There are some people who consider that their careers could potentially be jeopardised if their employers saw some of their posts, that promoted views their employers would disapprove of; they consider that items could be taken out of context and used unfairly against them. And we're against that sort of thing, right?
I'd still like to be able to search Tangency, but bringing up people's posting history seems to be frowned upon and treated as a personal attack there, so... meh. Tangency isn't worth the amount of thought we give it here.
Oh I was just being facetious. I could care a less about Tangency. I was just trying to lend a little assistance to Mr.Gillen (Who btw I think has the best Hitchens quote ever) which wasn't very helpful at all it seems.
Seems perfectly within their right to opt out of indexing if they like. Their motives are their own but I would assume it's to protect themselves from the exact things you mention.
Quote from: John Morrow;553502What continues to amaze me is that of all the media out there that makes fun of rape and other horrible things, people pick on a web comic and blog entry by a relatively minor role-playing author to go off on. That's like tackling organized crime by going after a kid stealing lunch money from his classmates.
Want to see mainstream media jokes about rape? (All of the following links are potentially NSFW.) We've got My Cousin Vinny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F55IwartzTo), Trading Places (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8uTY4p_WyI), Sam Kinison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np67piTSAzk)(*), and, for something more recent, a skit on Saturday Night Live (http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/scared-straight/1388773). Yes, rape is horrible but people make jokes about all sorts of horrible things other than rape. Both Dead Like Me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM3BTBuevmw) and Pushing Daisies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRC_zw0q58Q) were full of humor from horrible deaths. Korgoth of Barbaria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJ8G_ou6Dc) is full of people dying horrible but humorous deaths and here is Sam Kinison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7ehccspao) joking about starving Africans. And it's all terrible if you take it seriously, so it it horrible to laugh at it and should it all be boycotted or banned?
I'm reminded of a conversation on a convention panel years ago when Ken Rolston talked about experiencing a moment of cognitive dissonance when he realized he was laughing at the random torture table he was writing for the Paranoia RPG while being a member of Amnesty International. No, real torture isn't funny but people can find humor in it in the context of a game like Paranoia.
But if they really believe it is so terrible and believe it really created the horrors that it makes fun of, then I think they need to aim to ire a little higher on the food chain to things like mainstream movies and Saturday Night Live rather than where they are aiming it now.
But even if they wanted to focus their outrage to the RPG hobby and believe even contemplating a rapemonster or including horrific rape in a game book is an unforgivable thought crime that warrants action, aren't there worse targets out there? What game, once an RPGnet darling and often still praised, not only contains this passage:
...but went on in a later supplement to include a gang of children raping another child? (**) Does that warrant a boycott of the companies still selling PDFs of those books? And what about Vincent Baker abd the fine people over a story-games.com talking about his game Poison'd in a thread titled "Light-hearted incest (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/7783/light-hearted-incest/p1)":
"You know how Poison'd often leads to rape within the first half hour? You sit down with a group of perfectly nice people and within half an hour they're rolling for rape. And all this happens in a happy, joyful way."
Doesn't a game that not only rapidly lead to rape but does so in a "happy, joyful way" deserve some condemnation and the author and all associated with him a boycott if GRIM deserves one?
So if the issue is really the subject matter and content, why is the ire so selective?
(And for the record, I do think rape and prison rape are terrible and do think some of the material I posted above goes too far.)
(*) As a disclaimer, I once ran a Warhammer FRP game where a player, who was playing a vampire, would not stop quoting from that Kinison routine and laughing maniacally about it so I obliged him with some unexpected NPC company of the sort described in the joke since his PC was undead. I'm not proud of it and wouldn't recommend it as a good GMing technique, but it stopped him from laughing about that joke.
(**) As another disclaimer, I have a writing credit for the game in question, though not the particular supplements I'm talking about here.
I'm just going to quote the whole lot and then my point.
You have the right of it John. I posted as much over there and the response was meh.
If you take Maledicta from the equation (who, i think has ended up being a tool for a few other, less savoury sorts, poor woman), i think this is basically the Art vs Pornography argument in another guise.
I've been pointing at and mocking fucked-up shit in games for more than 5 years -
all of them.
There is some mighty hypocisy going on in this debate and i think it's based on a fallacy - Art vs Pornography.
There is no RPG equivalent of the 'Art' side in this debate. They are Roleplaying Games.
Games.Therefore, if you poke your head above the parapet in this debate, you either have to condemn all fucked-up shit in gaming equally or not at all if you wish to retain your credability.
For people who think that there is an 'Art' equivalent in this debate about
games, and think they are trying to get a message across in their writings or are trying to enducate people - you're using the wrong medium.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553603I decided to lend my few spare $$$ to grabbing a couple Traveller books.
I think I might do that myself, and pick up Legend while I'm at it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553631Therefore, if you poke your head above the parapet in this debate, you either have to condemn all fucked-up shit in gaming equally or not at all if you wish to retain your credability.
Bit of a false dichotomy there, when "fucked up shit" in games runs from poison'd to bikini chainmail. The latter doesn't qualify as fucked up shit by any reasonable standard, the former does. The question isn't Art vs Porn or Games vs Porn, or anything versus porn, its those seeking power versus gamers.
EDIT: Hey, devil's post. :cool:
Quote from: The Traveller;553633Bit of a false dichotomy there, when "fucked up shit" in games runs from poison'd to bikini chainmail. The latter doesn't qualify as fucked up shit by any reasonable standard, the former does. The question isn't Art vs Porn or Games vs Porn, or anything versus porn, its those seeking power versus gamers.
EDIT: Hey, devil's post. :cool:
I should clarify.
I mean that the people pointing at Desborough's stuff and decrying it, while at the same time using the 'Poison'd isn't bad. It is meaningful!' are using the Art vs Pornography argument and i'm saying it doesn't apply to
games.
Art is a useless definition anyway. Anything anyone thinks is art is art. If Mapplethorpe is art so is Deep Throat.
I'm your huckleberry.
Quote from: Novastar;553560You, good sir, are establishing yourself as a fuckwit of the highest caliber.
I see what you did there, you accidentally mistyped 'reasonable educated individual.'
QuoteThere is a mountain of difference between saying "I didn't like his book. I don't think anyone should buy it." and contacting someone's employer and demanding they get fired.
You are correct in that they are different degrees of the same principal. One must certainly feel strongly about an issue in order to effect change in that way. Each of us has the ability to associate with whoever we choose and inform others as to the reasons why. This includes protesting and complaining about the actions of employees to an employer.
QuoteAnd lying about why they should get fired, to boot.
Not commenting on the specifics here, but that would be Not Very Nice.
QuoteAnd saying dumb shit like "You are free to seek other publishers/distribution chains or self-publish." is assinine to an extreme. It's like saying "well, if you don't like the Gestapo breaking into your house in the middle of the night, you could leave the country!"
Your specific example involves unlawful coercion, implied censorship, and Goodwins Law and thus your NerdRage has nothing to do with what I cited. If one does not like the $/word rate of their current publisher they are free to seek another publisher. A Publisher is free to associate with whoever they choose. This includes '
we dont like your work' or '
we dont think it will sell' or '
we dont like your past work' or '
we dont publish erotic versions of Star Trek novels where all of the characters are furry, like Kirk is an Ocelot or something, and they put a furry version of themselves as the star of the story.' In which case it is up to the author to find a publisher who is willing to print those types of work. Or, one could buy a printing press, like the Trolls did.
You seem to be having trouble understanding this concept. If I send a manuscript to Mongoose THEY DON'T HAVE TO PUBLISH IT.
QuoteMotherfucker, please. You don't have to move to another country, to say shit ain't right in this one.
I do believe, in fact, I was saying the exact opposite.
Quote from: Novastar;553560You, good sir, are establishing yourself as a fuckwit of the highest caliber.
Having now made your argument look the fool I shall close with: He who smelt it dealt it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553639I should clarify.
I mean that the people pointing at Desborough's stuff and decrying it, while at the same time using the 'Poison'd isn't bad. It is meaningful!' are using the Art vs Pornography argument and i'm saying it doesn't apply to games.
I kinda agree with you - fucked-up shit is fucked-up shit, regardless - but I don't think there is an entirely arbitrary line; games can be art, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they
need to be or that every game
should be art. "Artiness" is a separate property to "gaminess", and thinking - and stating! - that something is irredeemable crap is utterly fine regardless of it's "artiness" value.
You still couldn't even pay me to play Poison'd, though.
Quote from: Benoist;553579I am not telling anyone to shut up. This is what YOU took away from my posts and you are WRONG. This is NOT what I am saying. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry, Bennie. How ELSE am I supposed to take 'Don't throw gas on the fire by making Dickwolf art!' from you?
Sounds a lot like 'shut up, grim.'.
And I certainly didn't make up the 'For the good of Mongoose!' elements you added... repeatedly.
Do you want me to go back and quote you a few times to show you why I think you're telling GRIM to shut up... for the good of the Industry? I can if you want.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553624Here is the US of A. We are ok with gore galore but god forbid a pear of lively breasts or a gentleman's muscled rear show onscreen. People loose their fucking mind. It's actually kind of hilarious because while they are crusading against it, little Timmy is surfing pr0n on 4chan and calling people "faggot".
As mentioned earlier, when that ridiculous Protect the children law passed, they simply can't take the chance anymore soandso would post something some litigious happy parent would see.
Mildly derailing thread-wise, move along!
That's why I got a website in the UK: The few fundies and radfems who do give a shit over here are so isolated as to be insignificant.
Hence why from the beginning I was convinced this was a cultural problem. How many of the people who support TBP extremists aren't American? I'm guessing very few.
Quote from: Spike;553657I'm sorry, Bennie. How ELSE am I supposed to take 'Don't throw gas on the fire by making Dickwolf art!' from you?
You could start by actually reading the posts that led us to this point.
THIS (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=553293&postcount=511), is the post you were originally answering to. This post was in answer to this particular response of GRIM (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=553233&postcount=489) to that post of Ladybird, (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=553230#post553230) which brings us back to GRIM's writeup of the Dickwolf. (http://apresvie.livejournal.com/134133.html) So when I say this (see first post linked), which is what you were actually answering to...
Quote from: Benoist;553293Well, GRIM, here's my problem concerning your stance, here. I think it's okay for you to engage these people you disagree with however you want, and if you want to "give them ammunition to make them look ridiculous", well, I think it's a really stupid move, and talks very poorly of your sense of humour, but whatever. That's your choice.
Where I'm not feeling so sure about this is when you start dragging with you the people you worked with and force them to take a stance in a war they did not want, which in turn may hurt real people and real livelihoods, just because you felt like having some lulz at the expense of the goons or whoever else offended your sense of pride and freedom of speech or whatever the hell it is that motivates this "strategy of yours". And by doing this, by extension, you are giving the horde against you more leverage to hurt the entire hobby in the process, because at some point some publishers will have to pull books off the shelves, authors who are concerned about getting a next gig will have to look what they write and censor themselves, and on and on it goes, until you find yourself surrounded by a hobby that you helped destroy from a completely misplaced sense of humourous justice, which is exactly the reverse of your stated goal, as I understand it.
I am actually talking about the writeup of the Dickwolf and the way GRIM responds to attacks
by giving more ammunition to people who criticize him, which in turns affects the people and businesses who employed him previously, since they are targeted as well.
I am not telling him to shut up. I am not telling him he shouldn't respond to the accusations, or try to engage them at all.
What I AM saying is that giving more ammunition to the other side is stupid, helps the goons bring down the people he's worked with and businesses that didn't ask for this war, and that's the end of that. What would be more productive would be to answer in a different way, using facts, turn them against the people wanting to put him against the wall, and fire back.
There. Are we clear now?
In an an attempt to increase the signal to noise ratio by posting something that isn't more insipid flames, I offer this:
On another, more political blog I read, the question of how to respond to Alinskyite tactics was discussed at length. One poster suggested something I thought was quite interesting: the "8 Mile" response.
In the movie "8 Mile", the character "Rabbit" played by Eminem/Marshall Mathers ends up in a "rap battle"[1]. His opponent attacks Rabbit viciously - he's white, he lives in a trailer park, his mother is a junkie, etc., etc.
Rabbit's response is (loosely) "Yes, all those things are true. And I'm still a better rapper than you. What else have you got?"
So, from this we can extract some general principles.
- Own the truths about yourself. There's no point in denying something the Alinskyites can trivially prove, and being embarrassed or apologetic about such things only makes those things an exploitable weakness.
- Don't get sidetracked. If the issue in contention is who the better rapper is, where you live or what your mother does is irrelevant.
- Be the better rapper. Be ironclad sure of your facts, stick to them, be able to deliver them with confidence and clarity. Aggressively point out the emptiness of the Alinskyites' "arguments".
[1] For those unfamiliar with the form, it involves two rappers trading insults with each other in a form of structured freestyle spoken word poetry accompanied by syncopated rhythm. The goal is to deliver clever, elaborate, or exceptionally devastating insults, with the intent of so unnerving one's opponent that they are unable to respond in kind.
Quote from: Ian Warner;553622That's the thing: the so called NSFW thread is perfectly safe for work in a civilised country. You don't get people posting anything more "offensive" than skimpy outfits and mild violence.
At the time the decision was made image threads of that nature weren't even allowed.
The greater concern was the long dead tradition of "Porn Monday," which centered around often very graphic discussions of sexual behaviors, or at least graphic enough to be concerned about people violating the 18-and-above soft rule of the time.
Forcing registration to access the "grown-up" parts of the site requires a user to agree to a legal boilerplate that stats that the user is 13 or over and has parental permission to register, in accordance with the aforementioned child protection law.
It was simply standard CYA on the part of Skotos, who were getting twitchy about what Tangency was getting up to from time to time.
Quote from: J Arcane;553724It was simply standard CYA on the part of Skotos, who were getting twitchy about what Tangency was getting up to from time to time.
And yet they are quite comfortable with what tangency is getting up to these days.
We are beset by the spineless.
Quote from: The Traveller;553727And yet they are quite comfortable with what tangency is getting up to these days.
We are beset by the spineless.
RPGnet is about as relevant to normal Skotos business as Wizards of the Coast are to Hasbro's.
They simply don't care, and they've always been incredibly hands off. I see no reason why they'd be particularly interested in the latest manufactured drama.
If you feel the actions involved are significant enough a legal threat to Skotos, you're welcome to email someone higher up the food chain, however, I think the situation is rapidly being blown out of proportion into conspiracy theory and armchair legalism and that some perspective is probably suggested.
Quote from: J Arcane;553729RPGnet is about as relevant to normal Skotos business as Wizards of the Coast are to Hasbro's.
Except unlike Hasbro, I've never heard of Skotos, and I'm not likely to start judging by their other offerings, which appear to be a variety of text based MUDs and really badly designed websites.
Quote from: J Arcane;553729They simply don't care
Well, lets see if we can't rectify that.
Quote from: J Arcane;553729If you feel the actions involved are significant enough a legal threat to Skotos, you're welcome to email someone higher up the food chain, however, I think the situation is rapidly being blown out of proportion into conspiracy theory and armchair legalism and that some perspective is probably suggested.
Please. The only ones that win in legal situations are lawyers. A good solid boycott or two is not only par for the course but entirely above board.
Quote from: The Traveller;553733Except unlike Hasbro, I've never heard of Skotos, and I'm not likely to start judging by their other offerings, which appear to be a variety of text based MUDs and really badly designed websites.
Well, lets see if we can't rectify that.
Please. The only ones that win in legal situations are lawyers. A good solid boycott or two is not only par for the course but entirely above board.
And threaten the precious livelihoods of Skotos' staff over an incident they have almost no actual involvement in?
I seem to recall this thread coming down pretty hard against that kind of thing.
You people need to make up your minds.
Quote from: J Arcane;553736And threaten the precious livelihoods of Skotos' staff over an incident they have almost no actual involvement in?
Livelihoods? This isn't a fucking business. Skotos reads like some third level tech monkey's means of passing the time on the taxpayer's dollar while he clocks up the hours to retirement. Here, a few of the highlights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skotos).
QuoteIn 2010, Sony SOE divested itself of any owning interest in The Eternal City and Grendel's Revenge, ceding the titles to Skotos.
In 2010, Sony SOE shut down the Sony SOE Denver division.
The Eternal City. This traditional MUD, with a very sophisticated combat system, is set in the low-fantasy Roman-like city of Iridine. It was previously available as an ad-driven service and came to Skotos in 2001. In 2008, SOE-Denver sold The Eternal City to Skotos, removing itself from the game completely.
Other Skotos Channel Games
There are a number of other games currently available through Skotos on a non-exclusive basis:
Online Strategy Games. These are turn-based traditional online strategy games: Droid Arena and Space Federation. Galactic Emperor: Hegemony also fits into this same category, but is an exclusive game, as noted above.
Tabletop Strategy Games. The entire series of Days of Wonder online games is available through Skotos. This currently includes: Ticket to Ride, Ticket to Ride Europe, Gang of Four, Fist of Dragonstones, and Queen's Necklace.
Some games used to be available on the Skotos Channel, but were removed in 2006 for lack of players.
Graphical Roleplaying Games. These are more traditional MMORPGs, though mostly last generation ones. Only Meridian 59 is currently available via this gaming channel.
I'm assuming that it was Skotos "employees" who put that page together, since plainly nobody else gives a shit. Its a story of one failure after another, from the looks of things rpgnet is the jewel in the crown.
QuoteSkotos has received attention for the quality of its publicly available articles on virtual world design and its philosophy of player agency in the world as opposed to pure designer control
You don't fucking say, that explains a lot. Who the fuck ever heard of any of this bollocks. Behold, ladies and gentlemen, skotos.net, too edgy for .com, where iframed menus and MUDs are the order of the day.
The Days of Wonder series has been incredibly successful and has been the bulk of their business since they first struck the deal on Gang of Four years ago.
They were the first online version of Ticket to Ride and got a lot of play out of that as well.
Regardless, you're dodging the point.
Quote from: J Arcane;553741The Days of Wonder series has been incredibly successful
Sure, I'll wait for the movie if its all the same.
Quote from: J Arcane;553741Gang of Four years ago.
Yes, because the execution of 34,000 people for political crimes is a perfectly inoffensive theme for a game. Still, I suppose no Chinese people whose relatives died in the pogrom are ever likely to play it. Nor, indeed, anyone else.
Quote from: J Arcane;553741Regardless, you're dodging the point.
What, that the magnificently successful institution of impartiality that is Skotos games might have its wings clipped for trying to export the academic politics its owner is no doubt bound to obey, for fear of loss of his salary, into my hobby?
Try harder. Try again.
What's all this about again?
Quote from: The Traveller;553743Sure, I'll wait for the movie if its all the same.
Yes, because the execution of 34,000 people for political crimes is a perfectly inoffensive theme for a game. Still, I suppose no Chinese people whose relatives died in the pogrom are ever likely to play it. Nor, indeed, anyone else.
What, that the magnificently successful institution of impartiality that is Skotos games might have its wings clipped for trying to export the academic politics its owner is no doubt bound to obey, for fear of loss of his salary, into my hobby?
Try harder. Try again.
You really don't see the irony in what you sound like right now, do you?
Quote from: One Horse Town;553746What's all this about again?
Someone wants to do something to Skotos.
Another person objected because... well because.
back and forth ensues.
The Traveller is no longer Jack Burton. :(
You asked a question.
:idunno:
Quote from: One Horse Town;553746What's all this about again?
This is what happens when you take bathroom breaks.
Quote from: J Arcane;553748You really don't see the irony in what you sound like right now, do you?
I see an attempt to deflect justified criticism. As opposed to unjustified criticism, which is where the whole witch hunt originated, which for some reason you are vigorously ignoring.
No wonder the whole operation is bouncing along the bottom. Look at whats lurking behind the curtain.
Quote from: Sinister Brain;553750The Traveller is no longer Jack Burton. :(
No better man for dealing with Gmorks than Spoon. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjvLLI-SHa8
Quote from: The Traveller;553743Yes, because the execution of 34,000 people for political crimes is a perfectly inoffensive theme for a game. Still, I suppose no Chinese people whose relatives died in the pogrom are ever likely to play it. Nor, indeed, anyone else.
It's one of the most popular card games in the world, you fucking numbskull. Go back to your double-wide already.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;553760It's one of the most popular card games in the world, you fucking numbskull. Go back to your double-wide already.
KoOS
I have the funny feeling that the seat-edger Bridge, the pensioners favourite, eclipses it somewhat, to say nothing of poker or any one of thousands of actual card games that make, what, the Gang of Four, look like a weak fart in a high wind, fucknuts. Magic: the obsessive, it has spawned.
Quote from: The Traveller;553602Hold on now; as much as I'm in favour of rational no-punches-pulled debate I think this idea could have some merit.
All of the adverts on rpgnet are handled by a single agency. If we make a list of all of the sites they serve up adverts on, and its not too hard to do that, and tell them we will never click on one of their adverts as long as they continue to give money to rpgnet, that should result in some results. Also tell the sites that use them.
No reason to boycott anyone doing anything productive or gaming companies, plenty of other ways you can see them, just nail this ad network. And the next one after that and so on. If rpgnet goes into business for itself, then the message is already out that its a bad idea to advertise with them. Hell according to GMS the place is a standing joke among rpg companies anwyay, may as well seal the deal.
Simples.
Here's yet another facet most probably haven't considered: rpgnet is probably the first port of call for people who are getting back into the hobby, and more importantly new players and GMs.
Take me for example, I'm like a primeval ancient emerged from the mists of the early 90s. I've been playing since then, picked up a few books and built my own system, but for the most part I've remained entirely oblivious to the shifts and tides online. Storygaming had to be explained to me last year with large diagrams for example.
Deciding to do a bit of online research led me to set up accounts on every single rpg discussion forum there was, even here, around about the same time. This place was a lot of fun but it didn't have the creative trust of rpgnet, similar to most forums. In all innocence I even set up a forge account to talk about my game system, ignorant but determined. Its a strange and muted place these days.
Rpgnet though, was buzzing, big, lively, and with lots of great ideas. Just one problem though, any comments or jokes on issues with nothing to do with gaming attracted a swarm of more vicious and hate filled attacks than I've seen anywhere else, and I've seen some right shitholes. The atmosphere, far from being the wonderful creative madhouse I imagined it was, rather was sullen, angry, oppressive and antagonistic. And it took a while for that penny to finally drop.
The problem wasn't and isn't the creative types. You'll never see the likes of Baileywolf sticking his oar into these threads, or very rarely. It was the much larger parish of clingers on and sycophants who never contributed a damn thing hanging their own dirty landry out and strangling everyone with it.
Imagine any new entrants to the hobby following in my well meaning footsteps, only without my history in gaming, landing at rpgnet, and getting so badly stung they'd rather saw off their own fingers than roll a dice at a gaming table.
I wouldn't call it an exaggeration to say that rpgnet has had a measureably detrimental effect on the growth of the hobby as a whole.
This beast must be put down.
Thanks, Traveller. I figured there was a way to make this idea work, but I needed to know more about the business model in place. I think you've got the details I was lacking all worked out. And for the record, your experiences with RPG.net, the forge, and this site as well, sound very similar to my own. Somehow, I don't find that surprising at all.
Quote from: J Arcane;553748You really don't see the irony in what you sound like right now, do you?
I'll tell you what's ironic: the thought of RPG.net getting taken down by an industry-wide boycott.
But if that's a problem for you, please let me know what would work better. Or faster.
Quote from: J Arcane;553736And threaten the precious livelihoods of Skotos' staff over an incident they have almost no actual involvement in?
I seem to recall this thread coming down pretty hard against that kind of thing.
You people need to make up your minds.
I suppose if you can't tell that MalaDicta/RPGnet/Skotos are actually actively doing something
objectively wrong, whereas Grim/Mongoose/SJGames where not, you might be confused.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;553777I'll tell you what's ironic: the thought of RPG.net getting taken down by an industry-wide boycott.
No, no, no. That would be
poetic justice.
Irony is when I buy rpg.net outright from Skotos for more money than they can possibly refuse, thus proving once and for all to the Tangencyites that all anyone really cares about is their next paycheque.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553796No, no, no. That would be poetic justice.
Irony is when I buy rpg.net outright from Skotos for more money than they can possibly refuse, thus proving once and for all to the Tangencyites that all anyone really cares about is their next paycheque.
That would be *awesome*.
I do wonder how much Skotos actually paid for RPG.net.
Quote from: Endless Flight;553801That would be *awesome*.
I do wonder how much Skotos actually paid for RPG.net.
probably not much, since I think they've owned it since the 90s before it become popular.
Quote from: Endless Flight;553801That would be *awesome*.
Although I was joking earlier, I am now seriously considering opening negotiations with them just to see how much they think it's worth.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553809Although I was joking earlier, I am now seriously considering opening negotiations with them just to see how much they think it's worth.
If you actually do this please do let BT be a moderator he couldn't possibly be any worse that most of what they have currently.
The latest is Rand topic banning Rachael Cartacos from self deprecation.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;553803probably not much, since I think they've owned it since the 90s before it become popular.
No, I think it was around 2001 or something, right before the Great Server Crash. They were transferring the data over to Skotos and lost all of it. I seem to recall it was hard drive itself being physically delivered, but that doesn't sound right. They got everything back up and running in Jan of 2002, which is when I signed back up and posted one of the first five messages on the new system. So, not only am I one of the longest term members over there, I have one of the oldest messages on the system. :D
Quote from: The Traveller;553602All of the adverts on rpgnet are handled by a single agency. If we make a list of all of the sites they serve up adverts on, and its not too hard to do that, and tell them we will never click on one of their adverts as long as they continue to give money to rpgnet, that should result in some results. Also tell the sites that use them.
No reason to boycott anyone doing anything productive or gaming companies, plenty of other ways you can see them, just nail this ad network. And the next one after that and so on. If rpgnet goes into business for itself, then the message is already out that its a bad idea to advertise with them. Hell according to GMS the place is a standing joke among rpg companies anwyay, may as well seal the deal.
Simples.
Here's yet another facet most probably haven't considered: rpgnet is probably the first port of call for people who are getting back into the hobby, and more importantly new players and GMs.
Take me for example, I'm like a primeval ancient emerged from the mists of the early 90s. I've been playing since then, picked up a few books and built my own system, but for the most part I've remained entirely oblivious to the shifts and tides online. Storygaming had to be explained to me last year with large diagrams for example.
Deciding to do a bit of online research led me to set up accounts on every single rpg discussion forum there was, even here, around about the same time. This place was a lot of fun but it didn't have the creative trust of rpgnet, similar to most forums. In all innocence I even set up a forge account to talk about my game system, ignorant but determined. Its a strange and muted place these days.
Rpgnet though, was buzzing, big, lively, and with lots of great ideas. Just one problem though, any comments or jokes on issues with nothing to do with gaming attracted a swarm of more vicious and hate filled attacks than I've seen anywhere else, and I've seen some right shitholes. The atmosphere, far from being the wonderful creative madhouse I imagined it was, rather was sullen, angry, oppressive and antagonistic. And it took a while for that penny to finally drop.
The problem wasn't and isn't the creative types. You'll never see the likes of Baileywolf sticking his oar into these threads, or very rarely. It was the much larger parish of clingers on and sycophants who never contributed a damn thing hanging their own dirty landry out and strangling everyone with it.
Imagine any new entrants to the hobby following in my well meaning footsteps, only without my history in gaming, landing at rpgnet, and getting so badly stung they'd rather saw off their own fingers than roll a dice at a gaming table.
I wouldn't call it an exaggeration to say that rpgnet has had a measureably detrimental effect on the growth of the hobby as a whole.
This beast must be put down.
RPG.net: The Dickwolf of Gamer Forums
Quote from: The Traveller;553762I have the funny feeling that the seat-edger Bridge, the pensioners favourite, eclipses it somewhat, to say nothing of poker or any one of thousands of actual card games that make, what, the Gang of Four, look like a weak fart in a high wind, fucknuts. Magic: the obsessive, it has spawned.
Gang of Four
is an actual card game -- it's just a commercial version of Choh Dai Di, aka "Big Two". I realize that may not be the flavour of the month down at the trailer park, but in the wider world it's a bit of a thing.
KoOS
Quote from: King of Old School;553829Gang of Four is an actual card game -- it's just a commercial version of Choh Dai Di, aka "Big Two".
Oh that, yeah pretty sure that is bigger than Poker, let alone Bridge.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553809Although I was joking earlier, I am now seriously considering opening negotiations with them just to see how much they think it's worth.
They aren't investing much in it, that's for sure. Would be curious what they quote you.
Quote from: Marleycat;553812The latest is Rand topic banning Rachael Cartacos from self deprecation.
Some of his calls are iffy but not this one, IMO. S/he's a troll. Trolling people for sympathy's just one of their hobbies.
QuoteSome of his calls are iffy but not this one, IMO. S/he's a troll. Trolling people for sympathy's just one of their hobbies.
Since I don't post much there (only 970ish posts in 8 years) I'll take your word for it.
Quote from: Laurel;553845They aren't investing much in it, that's for sure. Would be curious what they quote you.
Some of his calls are iffy but not this one, IMO. S/he's a troll. Trolling people for sympathy's just one of their hobbies.
The problem isn't that someone troll's for sympathy. The problem is that there you can't tell her to go fuck herself and shut the hell up for once.
I've got some experience owning and selling forums.
I've been doing some googling on rpg.net's estimated worth. From what I've dug up so far: it's worth anywhere from $35,000 to $850,000. It seems to average over $100 a day on ad revenue, which sounds a little low. A very simple method of estimating a site's worth is calculating it's monthly ad revenue and multiply that by anywhere from 6-12 months. In reality though, a site's only worth what somebody's willing to pay for it. RPG.net has a few of positives going for it, such as a fantastic domain name that's been around since the ancient days of the internet and a fairly large user base, which would increase the value. The negatives would be the large cost to keep the forum running.
I'd be interested to see what would happen if RPG.net started charging people $10 a year to post in Tangency. Many wouldn't pay but quite a large percentage would, from what I've seen. It's fairly easy to do with vBulletin. It would probably increase the value of the site exponentially.
I'd say a very lowball offer would be $100k and they'd most likely laugh. If someone inquired, they'd probably want a figure instead of providing one and it'd have to be a serious offer.
Quote from: Endless Flight;553858It seems to average over $100 a day on ad revenue, which sounds a little low. A very simple method of estimating a site's worth is calculating it's monthly ad revenue and multiply that by anywhere from 6-12 months.
So that would be $18,000-$36,000, so where is $100,000 and sorry ROFL $850,000 coming from?
As far as ad revenue goes, the majority of ads are for RPG-related sites, the majority of posters are not RPGers.
Quote from: Endless Flight;553858I've got some experience owning and selling forums.
I've been doing some googling on rpg.net's estimated worth. From what I've dug up so far: it's worth anywhere from $35,000 to $850,000. It seems to average over $100 a day on ad revenue, which sounds a little low. A very simple method of estimating a site's worth is calculating it's monthly ad revenue and multiply that by anywhere from 6-12 months. In reality though, a site's only worth what somebody's willing to pay for it. RPG.net has a few of positives going for it, such as a fantastic domain name that's been around since the ancient days of the internet and a fairly large user base, which would increase the value. The negatives would be the large cost to keep the forum running.
I'd be interested to see what would happen if RPG.net started charging people $10 a year to post in Tangency. Many wouldn't pay but quite a large percentage would, from what I've seen. It's fairly easy to do with vBulletin. It would probably increase the value of the site exponentially.
I'd say a very lowball offer would be $100k and they'd most likely laugh. If someone inquired, they'd probably want a figure instead of providing one and it'd have to be a serious offer.
Hmm, I'd say $100k is its Fair Market Value, and starting out around $250k is where they'd drop what they're doing and call their lawyer. $500k and they'd probably throw in their shirts and Kai Tave's head:)
Of course, if you could somehow bottle all the sweet sweet tears when you closed the tangency forum, you could make BILLIONS!
Well, shucks.
The particular thread I'm looking for is not available with the Google search function, which indicates how lousy it is but also implies to me that such thread may have been closed.
So I'm going to go on memory for part of this.
The point where I realized there was no point in posting on RPG.net anymore was on Tangency Open, when nargun posted a thesis to the effect of "the action of lying should be judged as moral to the extent that its intent is justified."
And my first response was "Well, that violates Kantian Ethics 101 right there."
But then with Kant, the standard of judging an action is the Categorical Imperative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_Imperative), meaning that one should act only as one's actions are not a contradiction of universal moral law. That is, if one lies, one is taking advantage of an overall standard of truthfulness, and contradicting oneself, because if EVERYONE lied, the assumption would BE that everyone lies and thus lies will no longer be effective. Of course, Kant had apparently never heard of the excluded middle, so in his commentaries he specifically referred to the question of the "inquiring murderer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_Imperative#Inquiring_murderer)", saying that indeed it is NOT moral to lie to a murderer pursuing a quarry. Defenders of Kant have said the person being questioned has the option of not saying anything. Assuming of course the murderer doesn't torture him.
Which is why most people consider Kantianism to be bullshit.
But most people do adopt a
practical version of the Imperative, although Kant himself would think of it as a "hypothetical imperative"- that is, we make decisions based on context rather than regard to universal moral laws. In this, the Categorical Imperative is based on a contradiction: It attempts to purge judgment of an action based upon a regard for consequences, but it can only do so by assuming the consequence of EVERYONE adopting an immoral position as a universal. In other words, because an action is often immoral, it is ALWAYS immoral. But in the real world of "hypothetical imperatives" we often find it the case that it is necessary to lie- to the murderer, to the KGB agent, to the wife who asks "Does this dress make me look fat?" At the same time we acknowledge the consequences of what would happen if lying became a universal standard.
So while we acknowledge the general immorality of lying, for much the reason that Kant states, we can judge according to utility, or context.
This is why we say things like "lying is a necessary evil."
The problem I had with nargun's formulation (and this is why I wish I could find the damn thread for his exact wording) is that it seemed to be defining lying AS a positive moral end rather than an expedient resolve to an imperfect situation.
So after a few exchanges with other posters, I stated "When most of us say, 'Lying is a necessary evil', we emphasize the word EVIL. nargun emphasizes the word NECESSARY."
And for this I got hit my a mod for making a personal attack.
Which is when I just packed up and left.
I didn't even think that nargun was lying
as such in his post, nor was I specifically calling him a liar. I WAS critiquing his argument because I thought he was advocating lying AS moral. (I could have gone further on that point in Trouble Tickets, but then I surely would've been banned for backtalk.)
But if calling a spade a spade is a personal attack (or if saying 'spade' makes you a racist) then as Pundit says, there is NO chance of reasonable, equal argument, or argument in good faith. If you cannot challenge premises and you cannot call a lie a lie, then who benefits and who suffers? Clearly those who benefit are the ones who consider lying moral and seek to control the terms of debate and even the terms of thought.
If one considers that to be speculation on my part, I DID find something VERY interesting when I looked up "nargun" on the Google forums.rpg.net search. This was a fairly recent post where Kai Tave gave nargun a week ban for trolling:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?622245-Infraction-for-nargun-5%29-Seven-Day-Ban
QuoteMessage to User:
As I stated in the thread in question, whatever the intended point you're attempting to convey deliberately posting to get a rise out of others is still pretty much trolling. You've been here long enough to know not to do something like that, and I would sincerely like you to avoid doing this in the future. If you have a point you wish to make then simply make it. If you wish to appeal this decision you may e-mail the forum admins.
Please do not respond directly to this message. Thank you.
--Kai Tave
Original Post:
Originally Posted by TechnocratJT (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?622039-Gun-control-and-quot-collector-s-quot-weapons/page5&p=15280224#post15280224)
"I am still trying to decide if Nargun really believes that the law should be enacted and used like a Green M&M contract clause."
nargun:
It's an interesting question. Because you asked:
I don't write what I write because it's what I believe. What I believe informs what I write, but my concern isn't with getting people to know what I think -- couldn't give a shit either way, that sort of thing's rooted in an empowerment kick I don't have -- but with the result, getting people to think like me, whether they know that their thinking patterns are my thinking patterns or not.
Accurately setting out what-I-think-and-why-I-think-it won't actually get me that result. Two reasons:
+ "I think what X thinks" isn't part of my thinking patterns; "nargun thinks X so I should too" is the exact opposite of what I want, and I want people to distrust me and examine what I'm saying critically
+ people hear what they expect to hear; if you're challenging people's thinking-patterns, you have to compensate, exaggerate the differences, or people may not notice. [Same with facts, but facts aren't a huge part of modern internet debate because few of us have access to private facts].
Anyway. What I actually want people to think is: "oh, yeah, I guess visually-based rather than utility-based regulation isn't per-se unreasonable [although it might be in particular cases, it'd depend on the exact regulation], because [after all] appearance is part of functionality". Which I think I've got, no? It might make me look silly, but it really genuinely works.
So given the "meta" level of thinking here, and the way a particular thread was phrased so as to not only promote deception but to trap any attempt to challenge the premise as a personal attack, it's pretty clear that nargun isn't just baiting and trolling the posters, he's baiting and trolling the MODERATORS.
The fact that despite a long, LONG history of this and despite getting temp banned something like every 3 to 5 weeks, nargun still isn't permabanned is probably due to any or all of the following factors:
1. nargun has incriminating evidence proving that one or several mods has membership in the Republican, Conservative, or Astarte forbid, Libertarian Party;
2. One or several mods are in agreement with nargun's socio-political agenda, which is apparently based on the paradoxical tenets of "Governments are instruments of oppression and should be done away with" and "Anybody who pisses ME off needs to be squashed like a gnat"
3. The moderators in general are as thick as nuclear submarine hulls.
Not that I should be picking on nargun, especially since to judge from comments about him in Trouble Tickets, he seems to be RPG.net's analog to BT.
But it's one thing for Pundit-haters to accuse him of paranoia regarding the "Swine" attempts to control the debate and control what people think as a means of controlling them.
It's something else when an example of such person actually COMES OUT AND SAYS THAT IS WHAT HE IS DOING.
I just object to the term "Swine."
At least swine are good for bacon. :D
JG
James, RPGnet is all about Kaelik.
That is, rules-lawyers.
Quote from: bryce0lynch;553645I see what you did there, you accidentally mistyped 'reasonable educated individual.'
No, I said Fuckwit.
While you are entitled to your own inestimable opinion about yourself, please be truthful enough not to try and put words into my mouth.
QuoteYou are correct in that they are different degrees of the same principal. One must certainly feel strongly about an issue in order to effect change in that way. Each of us has the ability to associate with whoever we choose and inform others as to the reasons why. This includes protesting and complaining about the actions of employees to an employer.
No, they are not equivilent actions.
If someone puts pickles on your burger, and you consider pickles offensive, does that give you the right to jump into the kitchen and loudly proclaim that the cook should be fired to any and everyone?
It was not private correspondence to inform the employer; it was not even a public review, to inform others. It was trying to get someone fired because "you don't like them".
QuoteNot commenting on the specifics here, but that would be Not Very Nice.
Please, if you have something to shed light on the subject, feel free to share. My mind is not made up; my opinions are not set in stone. Feel free to be less ambigious.
QuoteYour specific example involves unlawful coercion, implied censorship, and Goodwins Law and thus your NerdRage has nothing to do with what I cited. If one does not like the $/word rate of their current publisher they are free to seek another publisher. A Publisher is free to associate with whoever they choose. This includes 'we dont like your work' or 'we dont think it will sell' or 'we dont like your past work' or 'we dont publish erotic versions of Star Trek novels where all of the characters are furry, like Kirk is an Ocelot or something, and they put a furry version of themselves as the star of the story.' In which case it is up to the author to find a publisher who is willing to print those types of work. Or, one could buy a printing press, like the Trolls did.
There is nothing "implied" about the censorship taking place here.
I think Grim's work is purile and immature (sorry, Grim). I don't buy it.
But that said, I think he has every right to write what he pleases, and find employment from it.
Just because it isn't my choice, doesn't give me the right to remove the choice from others.
QuoteYou seem to be having trouble understanding this concept. If I send a manuscript to Mongoose THEY DON'T HAVE TO PUBLISH IT.
Nor do you have to buy it, even if they do publish it.
QuoteI do believe, in fact, I was saying the exact opposite.
No, you we're saying since
you don't like it, it should go away.
What's next? Outlaw mustard on a hot dog?
QuoteHaving now made your argument look the fool I shall close with: He who smelt it dealt it.
I may be a fool, but I somehow doubt I'm the larger one...
Quote from: One Horse Town;553867James, RPGnet is all about Kaelik.
That is, rules-lawyers.
I was looking for a specific example of what's been talked about.
JG
So, to sum up...
A bunch of people who found something offensive went too far and became libelous. Whilst being very selective in what they targetted.
The main general RPG board condoned this.
The main general RPG board basically quashed actual discussion to 'keep the peace'.
We got a load of new posters (some of whom are pretty reactionary).
Hypocrisy rules.
Quote from: One Horse Town;553879Hypocrisy rules.
Wait, are you saying "Hypocrisy RuLeZ!!!" or "Hypocrisy rules the day"?
Quote from: One Horse Town;553879So, to sum up...
A bunch of people who found something offensive went too far and became libelous. Whilst being very selective in what they targetted.
The main general RPG board condoned this.
The main general RPG board basically quashed actual discussion to 'keep the peace'.
We got a load of new posters (some of whom are pretty reactionary).
Hypocrisy rules.
[/B]
Emphasis mine. No, I don't think so. In fact, the TBP admins were pretty clear today...
QuoteThat'd only happen if you broke any rules here, like insulting people. We have this forum because we quite like being right, and you'll never be right if you won't let people question you reasonably (key word being reasonably). We also have the (removed admin email) mailbox for matters that can't be raised in TT for whatever reason.
Emphasis mine again. This says volumes me thinks.
To be honest, i'm not sure what your point is.
Quote from: Dodger;553539Is that a valid reason to not report a suspected crime?
Have you called the police yet?
Quote from: One Horse Town;553895To be honest, i'm not sure what your point is.
I just think the pretense of claiming that the place is open to everyone is done over there. They are right, and so are you if you agree with them. Everyone else can go pound sand.
That is what I think is driving folks away, rather than the angle, or content, of the Desborough/Mongoose/ConRape thread.
Quote from: Ian Warner;553622That's the thing: the so called NSFW thread is perfectly safe for work in a civilised country. You don't get people posting anything more "offensive" than skimpy outfits and mild violence.
I don't care what so-called civilized country you're in, some things shouldn't be in the workplace. In most places, the workplace is for, you know, WORK.
Mostly.
Quote from: GetWrecked;553907I just think the pretense of claiming that the place is open to everyone is done over there. They are right, and so are you if you agree with them. Everyone else can go pound sand.
That is what I think is driving folks away, rather than the angle, or content, of the Desborough/Mongoose/ConRape thread.
It's a business. Unlike here.
If you think your demographic leans a certain way, you cater to them.
Quote from: CRKrueger;553862So that would be $18,000-$36,000, so where is $100,000 and sorry ROFL $850,000 coming from?
As far as ad revenue goes, the majority of ads are for RPG-related sites, the majority of posters are not RPGers.
Web site valuations are generally ridiculously inflated and based on some fairly poor assumptions about "potential".
Although the rule of thumb is that maintenance costs can be ignored for web properties, allowing revenues and earnings to be equated, I doubt that's true for rpg.net. It's pretty slow, and they've repeatedly used the excuse that it would affect performance too much to implement some obvious features (like context-aware searching and a mobile web interface). I think they're probably lying about that, but it still shows they're not willing to investigate ways of improving the site. They're likely piggybacking on Skotos' infrastructure, so any valuation would have to take into account the real costs of running the site.
Having just had a look at Skotos' corporate info, it seems highly unlikely the publisher would be willing to sell anyway except to an ideological fellow traveler.
Quote from: Marleycat;553812If you actually do this please do let BT be a moderator he couldn't possibly be any worse that most of what they have currently.
The latest is Rand topic banning Rachael Cartacos from self deprecation.
That's because a lot of people get irritated and sick of her "woe is me, I don't understand simple human interaction, I'm a worthless sack of crap, I'm as naive as a two-year old" shit. She should take it to a shrink, not to bunch of people pretending to be elves.
I don't see a problem with telling her to stop it and talk about other shit.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553914Web site valuations are generally ridiculously inflated and based on some fairly poor assumptions about "potential".
The web site name, itself, should be valued into 5 figures. I sold a 4-letter .com domain name I had a few years ago for $10K.
What might be a better proposal would be to ask them to swap the rpg.net domain name for the tangency.net domain name (if Sacrificial Lamb is willing to donate it to the cause or part with it for a reasonable sum), plus a sum of money for their trouble, and possibly their base (purple) graphical design and possibly their user list., Offer to let them keep running what they have now, moderators and role-playing boards and all, but as tangency.net rather than rpg.net for people who like things the way they are and set up a current and fresh copy of the message board software (with search capability) on a new server as the new rpg.net without a Tangency group and without the existing moderators.
Not only would tangency.net be a more accurate description for the site but it would free them from an RPG focus so they could have more prominent forums for their other products and other things that might strike their fancy, as well. Since this proposal doesn't actually take away or kill what they already have, it might be more palatable both from a business and ideological standpoint, since it keeps the politically correct utopia alive for the Tangency community and role-players who like that sort of space.
Quote from: StormBringer;553822No, I think it was around 2001 or something, right before the Great Server Crash. They were transferring the data over to Skotos and lost all of it. I seem to recall it was hard drive itself being physically delivered, but that doesn't sound right. They got everything back up and running in Jan of 2002, which is when I signed back up and posted one of the first five messages on the new system. So, not only am I one of the longest term members over there, I have one of the oldest messages on the system. :D
You've got an 84 in front of your username on your profile page with a join date of 01-05-2002 there so you were probably the 84th user to sign up after the move. I've got a 518 in front of my username with a join date of 01-07-2002, so you beat me by two days and several hundred users for the re-signup. On this board, however, my user number is 340 and my signup date is 04-14-2006 while your user number is 3692 and your join date is 03-27-2008. I signed up here when it was still under the Nutkinland (http://annex.wikia.com/wiki/Nutkinland) management. :p
Quote from: GetWrecked;553907I just think the pretense of claiming that the place is open to everyone is done over there. They are right, and so are you if you agree with them. Everyone else can go pound sand.
That is what I think is driving folks away, rather than the angle, or content, of the Desborough/Mongoose/ConRape thread.
Or to paraphrase Dennis Miller, RPG.net is losing people faster than a birthday clown with Tourette's Syndrome.
JG
Quote from: daniel_ream;553796No, no, no. That would be poetic justice.
Irony is when I buy rpg.net outright from Skotos for more money than they can possibly refuse, thus proving once and for all to the Tangencyites that all anyone really cares about is their next paycheque.
That is an excellent point, Sir! Of course I think that hypothetical boycott would drive down the asking price considerably.
Ok go ahead and yell at me for not reading all 73 pages (yet), but can someone explain MalaDicta's definition of 'rape'?
I went over to rpg.net to read about a TOR query and the first thing I see is a link to her post about how she and her friend have been raped, I dunno, four or twenty times at various cons (for months, her words not mine)
And my first reaction was, and you keep going back????. Then after rereading it again, I'm still bewildered. Does she consider someone touching her arm or back without her permission to be rape?
I know I sound crass and facetious, but one can only extrapolate from her post that either the definition of rape been broadly expanded or her decision making skills are extremely lacking.
Weekend/next week plans: win Lotto on Saturday. Buy RPG.net on Monday, turn keys over to Pundit, not before permabanning the lot of the users.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;553969Weekend/next week plans: win Lotto on Saturday. Buy RPG.net on Monday, turn keys over to Pundit, not before permabanning the lot of the users.
Better yet, ignore the other site(s) and use this forum to talk about RPGs.
Quote from: John Morrow;553941You've got an 84 in front of your username on your profile page with a join date of 01-05-2002 there so you were probably the 84th user to sign up after the move. I've got a 518 in front of my username with a join date of 01-07-2002, so you beat me by two days and several hundred users for the re-signup. On this board, however, my user number is 340 and my signup date is 04-14-2006 while your user number is 3692 and your join date is 03-27-2008. I signed up here when it was still under the Nutkinland (http://annex.wikia.com/wiki/Nutkinland) management. :p
So it is. I would have sworn that number was smaller. I think they had a couple dozen Mods and Admins sign-up before they threw the switch, so that is probably what messed up my calculations. Plus, you know, it was ten years ago. :)
Quote from: Rum Cove;553971Better yet, ignore the other site(s) and use this forum to talk about RPGs.
J Arcane gives this post +1.
Quote from: StormBringer;553973So it is. I would have sworn that number was smaller. I think they had a couple dozen Mods and Admins sign-up before they threw the switch, so that is probably what messed up my calculations. Plus, you know, it was ten years ago. :)
I'm sure they preloaded a bunch of admin users, but even without considering that, double digits is still pretty impressive. Sort of like Rhode Island license plates with 4 digits or less (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhode_Island#Low_numbered_license_plates).
Quote from: Punch and Pie;553968Ok go ahead and yell at me for not reading all 73 pages (yet), but can someone explain MalaDicta's definition of 'rape'?
Don't feel so bad, you're in the same boat as the rest of us.
JG
Quote from: thedungeondelver;553969Weekend/next week plans: win Lotto on Saturday. Buy RPG.net on Monday, turn keys over to Pundit, not before permabanning the lot of the users.
Sounds like a plan to me.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;553995Sounds like a plan to me.
RPGPundit
Sounds like too much work but I could be hired with James as official "ban people" person I work days he does nights. :D
Quote from: James Gillen;553989Don't feel so bad, you're in the same boat as the rest of us.
JG
Okay, I just slogged through. So.... she may be a Münchhausien dramaqueen?
Okay then.
I'll resume my odious task of tracking down that TOR post on big purple. Why people bother to post there instead of the TOR forum on Cubicle7's site is beyond me...
Quote from: Punch and Pie;554022Okay, I just slogged through. So.... she may be a Münchhausien dramaqueen?
Okay then.
I'll resume my odious task of tracking down that TOR post on big purple. Why people bother to post there instead of the TOR forum on Cubicle7's site is beyond me...
That's easy. As long as they agree with the modclique they can hide. No fear of banning. :)
Quote from: Punch and Pie;554022Okay, I just slogged through. So.... she may be a Münchhausien dramaqueen?
Don't bring the good baron into this.
Where is $100 a day coming from? I'd be surprised if it was $100 a week given how undercommercialised it is. That's before you think about people like me with adblocker on, which is probably most of the regulars. It doesn't work on therpgsite mind you because therpgsite serves up its own non-flash ads.
Page impressions aren't worth much these days, all that matters is actual income.
Quote from: daniel_ream;553914Having just had a look at Skotos' corporate info, it seems highly unlikely the publisher would be willing to sell anyway except to an ideological fellow traveler.
This. I would be amazed if either rpgnet or skotos are standalone businesses, they are probably on life support from someone's academic salary. Which explains exactly where the swine herd are coming from, and why they are encouraged so much over there.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;553960That is an excellent point, Sir! Of course I think that hypothetical boycott would drive down the asking price considerably.
*looks shifty*
Quote from: Rum Cove;553971Better yet, ignore the other site(s) and use this forum to talk about RPGs.
Easier said than done my friend. As I mentioned earlier, its the first port of call for many new players who aren't aware they're wandering into an extremist indoctrination camp. Incalculable damage has already been done to the hobby by these six-liners, and they aren't done yet.
And even the building seems to be pink, lovely.
http://goo.gl/maps/H95U
Is it just me or are those residential units above retail level?
is this really the site to "out" homepage owners and their private info?
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;554035is this really the site to "out" homepage owners and their private info?
Its all publicly available information, every bit, and to be honest its painting an interesting picture. I'm sure readers can draw their own conclusions.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;554035is this really the site to "out" homepage owners and their private info?
No, it isn't, and no, let's not do this.
Quote from: The TravellerIts all publicly available information, every bit, and to be honest its painting an interesting picture. I'm sure readers can draw their own conclusions.
Pundit's personal identity is publicly available information as well. Are you going to post it? (Don't, he will ban you for it.)
Quote from: Melan;554037Pundit's personal identity is publicly available information as well. Are you going to post it? (Don't, he will ban you for it.)
I'm sure I'd get banned over on rpgnet for posting the publicly available information above. I don't see what the problem is. Far from being "hands off", I'd bet that the androgynously named shannon is directly behind or at least quite involved with the attempts to hollow out the hobby and turn it into a propaganda machine. A hobby well known to attract insecure young men.
Lets not fuck around here, I'm very tired indeed of these people.
While not private, I don't see how the details about Applecline are relevant in any way. I don't think this is worth posting, and I'm editing out his Facebook link, which I don't think is appropriate to be posting. Don't repost it or repeat this sort of thing.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;554039While not private, I don't see how the details about Applecline are relevant in any way. I don't think this is worth posting, and I'm editing out his Facebook link, which I don't think is appropriate to be posting. Don't repost it or repeat this sort of thing.
RPGPundit
Sure.
Quote from: The Traveller;554038I'm sure I'd get banned over on rpgnet for posting the publicly available information above. I don't see what the problem is. Far from being "hands off", I'd bet that the androgynously named shannon is directly behind or at least quite involved with the attempts to hollow out the hobby and turn it into a propaganda machine. A hobby well known to attract insecure young men.
Are you seriously fucking insinuating what I think you're insinuating?
You realize you've just painted a big target on your head that reads "probable sockpuppet of BT", right?
Tread carefully.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;554041Are you seriously fucking insinuating what I think you're insinuating?
You realize you've just painted a big target on your head that reads "probable sockpuppet of BT", right?
Tread carefully.
RPGPundit
Hahah, lovely. No I'm saying that the angry female brigade selected it with cooperation from the abovementioned to target said demographic. Which is pretty close to what you've been saying yourself.
EDIT: Actually, since it seems to bother people so much, I'll remove the details from the post.
Quote from: John Morrow;553932What might be a better proposal would be to ask them to swap the rpg.net domain name for the tangency.net domain name (if Sacrificial Lamb is willing to donate it to the cause or part with it for a reasonable sum), plus a sum of money for their trouble, and possibly their base (purple) graphical design and possibly their user list., Offer to let them keep running what they have now, moderators and role-playing boards and all, but as tangency.net rather than rpg.net for people who like things the way they are and set up a current and fresh copy of the message board software (with search capability) on a new server as the new rpg.net without a Tangency group and without the existing moderators.
For a forum of that size, with so many regular posters, I think you need an off-topic forum to stop people cluttering up your gaming forums with off-topic posts; it's that or far, far more excessive moderation. What you don't need so much is Tangency's nasty, more-liberal-than-thou attitude. Tangency is a horrible, vile excuse for an off-topic forum.
It works fine here, because our regular, active poster number is quite low; we've got a good signal:noise ratio, and don't need much moderation (Outside of spamkilling, there's been... maybe ten moderation incidents needed this year? At most?). But scale that up, and problems will creep in.
I mean, geez, I probably tend towards the liberal end of the political spectrum (Although I know I have attitudes both sides would hate me for), and I think they go far too far, and if anything enable some incredibly unhealthy behaviour in their regulars. Rachel Cortacos, frex. Girl really, really needs a psychiatrist, not a hugbox.
Quote from: The Traveller;554043Hahah, lovely. No I'm saying that the angry female brigade selected it with cooperation from the abovementioned to target said demographic. Which is pretty close to what you've been saying yourself.
EDIT: Actually, since it seems to bother people so much, I'll remove the details from the post.
Right, well, for the moment I'll take you at your word. We already had one ultra-homophobe blatant-troll on here just very recently banned, who seemed to make it almost his mission in life to to make this site look bad and stir up shit. I'm not too inclined to let others take his place, and between that, SA goons, and potential sockpuppeteers you'll forgive me if I'm more cautious than usual.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ladybird;554047For a forum of that size, with so many regular posters, I think you need an off-topic forum to stop people cluttering up your gaming forums with off-topic posts; it's that or far, far more excessive moderation. What you don't need so much is Tangency's nasty, more-liberal-than-thou attitude. Tangency is a horrible, vile excuse for an off-topic forum.
It works fine here, because our regular, active poster number is quite low; we've got a good signal:noise ratio, and don't need much moderation (Outside of spamkilling, there's been... maybe ten moderation incidents needed this year? At most?). But scale that up, and problems will creep in.
You know, people were saying that kind of argument back when this site was 1/5th its current size. As time goes by, I'm increasingly less and less convinced (though I was never "convinced" to begin with, really) that it would be in any way true that you'd need excessive moderation just on account of the size of a large forum. You might need a few more
Moderators, but I don't believe that if we someday have 50000 users instead of 5000, we'll have to actually change the
moderation policy.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;554049Right, well, for the moment I'll take you at your word. We already had one ultra-homophobe blatant-troll on here just very recently banned, who seemed to make it almost his mission in life to to make this site look bad and stir up shit. I'm not too inclined to let others take his place, and between that, SA goons, and potential sockpuppeteers you'll forgive me if I'm more cautious than usual.
Of course. I don't wear rainbow coloured shirts or anything but I have gone to gay clubs with a girlfriend when she got tired of drunken louts copping a feel in other places. Good company and great music.
On the other hand, nothing to do with gay people, I do recall more moons ago than I care to think about when I was in college, doing a technical degree, one of my friends doing arts invited me to one of their lectures. It was a bit odd I thought, but I went along anyway.
I spent the next hour watching a shrivelled hag of a woman bellowing about some middle English poem in terms like "the thrusting, male penetrating prose" and "the invasive masculine sentence structure" and so on. The poem itself was relatively bland and innocuous. There's a very real hate machine out there, pulling in as many people as it can, and now the hobby appears to be on the receiving end of it.
Quote from: The Traveller;554033Easier said than done my friend. As I mentioned earlier, its the first port of call for many new players who aren't aware they're wandering into an extremist indoctrination camp. Incalculable damage has already been done to the hobby by these six-liners, and they aren't done yet.
I'm afraid so. If it was just not having MY own echo chamber, I'd accept that. That's half the reason I was on, was to debate. Of course, that was when I still believed that people debated in good faith. And if it was just a matter of leaving them to their own echo chamber, I've already done that.
But when this stuff gets contagious, it needs to be dealt with.
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;554050You know, people were saying that kind of argument back when this site was 1/5th its current size. As time goes by, I'm increasingly less and less convinced (though I was never "convinced" to begin with, really) that it would be in any way true that you'd need excessive moderation just on account of the size of a large forum. You might need a few more Moderators, but I don't believe that if we someday have 50000 users instead of 5000, we'll have to actually change the moderation policy.
RPGPundit
I think you'd need to do something to stop people wandering off-topic in the content forums, in order to keep the signal:noise ratio as high as it is currently. I think that's the true success of this forum; high quality posting that inspires more high quality posting, without oppressive "you must be this intelligent to post here" snobbishness.
A forum with rpg.net's size of active (Gaming!) userbase, and rpgsite's quality of posting, would certainly be a great achievement, and one of the best things that could be done for "the hobby".
Quote from: Ladybird;554047For a forum of that size, with so many regular posters, I think you need an off-topic forum to stop people cluttering up your gaming forums with off-topic posts; it's that or far, far more excessive moderation. What you don't need so much is Tangency's nasty, more-liberal-than-thou attitude. Tangency is a horrible, vile excuse for an off-topic forum.
I'm not sure if you joined after the change, but this site used to have an explicitly off-topic forum that was sucking a lot of air out of the role-playing forums because people were spending more time debating politics and other topics there than they were posting about role-playing stuff. Whenever a heated debate would fire up on the off-topic forum, the discussion on the role-playing board dropped off because people were wasting their time talking about the off-topic stuff. I say that as one of the most guilty parties.
That forum was deleted, leaving only the the RPGPundit forum as a sort-of off-topic forum, and despite the fact that I posted quite a bit to the old off-topic forum, the site is better for not having it. That off-topic posts don't neatly fit into a message board here is a nice reminder that off topic banter is not what this site is about. So maybe it would need some sort of dumpster to move off-topic discussions to, like we have here, but I'm skeptical that an explicitly off-topic forum is needed, even though I once though it did like you do.
Quote from: CRKrueger;553851The problem isn't that someone troll's for sympathy. The problem is that there you can't tell her to go fuck herself and shut the hell up for once.
Quote from: nightwind1;553915That's because a lot of people get irritated and sick of her "woe is me, I don't understand simple human interaction, I'm a worthless sack of crap, I'm as naive as a two-year old" shit. She should take it to a shrink, not to bunch of people pretending to be elves.
I don't see a problem with telling her to stop it and talk about other shit.
That's assuming s/he's being remotely honest about any of it, which given the history is a stretch, IMO. It's about what'll get him/her the attention and control over others s/he wants, not a cry for help. There's literally no amount of attention and reassurance anyone can give Cartacos that'll make it all better. Appearing to "get better" isn't gonna happen. That'd cut off the spigot.
Quote from: The Traveller;554043Hahah, lovely. No I'm saying that the angry female brigade
Angry
females? Seriously, dude, have you looked at who's actually posting in those threads? It's guys, with maybe one or two females. IIRC MalaDicta and Pyrephox were the only XX chromosome females in the recent discussion.
In the huge sexism in gaming brouhaha Kynn started, most posters were guys, faux trans women, and dudes trolling the board by pretending to be females. (Yes, there are actual trans women on the board, like Stacey and Ivy, but you see them giving the fakes a wide berth.)
I hate to see guys getting drawn into those flame wars. For some of the trolls, the point is not to improve things for women or to help women and men understand each other better, but to advance a fucked up misogynistic
and misandrist worldview that'd be mocked into oblivion anywhere else.
Quote from: John Morrow;554089I'm not sure if you joined after the change, but this site used to have an explicitly off-topic forum that was sucking a lot of air out of the role-playing forums because people were spending more time debating politics and other topics there than they were posting about role-playing stuff. Whenever a heated debate would fire up on the off-topic forum, the discussion on the role-playing board dropped off because people were wasting their time talking about the off-topic stuff. I say that as one of the most guilty parties.
Having a big OT forum also attracts non-gamers, which is the case on TBP. How many of the Tang regulars actually
game?
I liked the idea someone mentioned earlier about encouraging people to invest time and energy in other sites that actually do talk about roleplaying (and in a productive way) and brain-drain the Skotos sites. I'm still working my way through the threads here, but I have started to post about more than just TBP. ;)
WotC's D&D forum is I'd hazard to guess as large if not larger than RPG.net's, the business element is much stronger, and some of moderators are paid employees of the company.
There is an off-topic forum, but the user base seems much more concerned with discussing D&D than other topics. The moderation policy is to not bring in real-world politics or religion into discussions but grant a lot of leeway in that regard as RPG discussion is bound to draw inspiration from real-life and some conversations are always going to take a sociological tack.
All in all, excepting the 4e bent the moderators enforced a few years ago (which is a business decision from the company selling the product in question) I'd say the WotC moderation is successful in being neutral.
The RPG.net problem isn't one of scale. Their moderators extend a great amount of leeway to people to passive-aggressively bait and then fall down hard on anyone that takes that bait (and they do so on anyone who takes even the most passive-aggressive or backhanded tone in response). The tone of tangency and increasing the tone of the site isn't one that occurs without at least an implicit policy to foster it. Being a passive-aggressive, derailing dick is allowed if you've been vetted by the mods as an ideological fellow traveler and replying in kind to being talked down to is an actionable offense.
Scale might include its' own set of problems, and it might even require a more activist moderation staff. The problem over at RPG.net is that the moderators have failed the most basic task of moderation which is keeping discussions on topic. WotC staff wouldn't tolerate passive-aggressively trolling people off the site (and they do this mostly by granting much more leeway in responding to such posters than RPG.net does) and their number one job is keeping the forum on the subject of D&D, and keeping D&D from being a jumping-off point for real world political activism.
The problem with rpg.net is their "keep the peace, not fairness" (cater to the majority) mantra, because all it's done is create an echo chamber of passive aggressiveness for one side of an argument, and anyone who disagrees gets dogpiled and reported. The mods then sanction said dissenting opinion, making the problem even worse. They've admitted that they go by # of reports generated, so when you create an echo chamber and have 2 people that are equally snarky, they will only ban the one on the minority side because that's the one who the rest is reporting against.
They created this monster, and I see it only getting worse. It is literally a moderation policy of encouraging mob justice.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;554134They've admitted that they go by # of reports generated
Ha! I knew it. I called one of them out on exactly that, politely, and was punished for my impertinence.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;554126The moderation policy is to not bring in real-world politics or religion[...]
When I buy rpg.net, the first thing I'm doing is shuttering the Tangency subfora and enforcing an aggressive no-SPAR[1] moderation policy.
[1] Sex, Politics and Religion, a.k.a. the three things people
used to understand one did not discuss in polite company.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554147When I buy rpg.net, the first thing I'm doing is shuttering the Tangency subfora and enforcing an aggressive no-SPAR[1] moderation policy.
[1] Sex, Politics and Religion, a.k.a. the three things people used to understand one did not discuss in polite company.
Really? Because when
I buy rpg.net, I'll make everyone have R rated avatars.
I just feel sorry for the reasonable people who wander into the "feminist" topics on TBP mistaking it for a place for rational discourse.
Every single time someone comes in with anything resembling logic they get called all manner of horrid buzzward insults.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;554153I just feel sorry for the reasonable people who wander into the "feminist" topics on TBP mistaking it for a place for rational discourse.
Every single time someone comes in with anything resembling logic they get called all manner of horrid buzzward insults.
that's EXACTLY what a rape culture supporter would say.
(I'm...sorry...the opportunity was there...I'm a weak man....)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;554151Really? Because when I buy rpg.net, I'll make everyone have R rated avatars.
Well, I'm being halfway serious. I agree with whomever it was who said that there's a huge untapped creative trust at rpg.net getting drowned by all the off-topic progressive activism.
I mean, if I only wanted to screw with people I'd just make rpg.net a 301 redirect to zombocom.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554188I mean, if I only wanted to screw with people I'd just make rpg.net a 301 redirect to zombocom.
Or require every user to use the FATAL rules to determine their anal circumference.
Yeesh!
Quote from: Laurel;554116Angry females? Seriously, dude, have you looked at who's actually posting in those threads? It's guys, with maybe one or two females. IIRC MalaDicta and Pyrephox were the only XX chromosome females in the recent discussion.
That's a good point, its pretty stupid for someone to blame women for this kind of thing, when its very clear that the vast majority of instigators are men who are trying to manipulate feminist "causes" in order to serve their own interests, and the vast majority of participants are men who are tripping over themselves in a mad dash to show how "sensitive" they are to their own "privilege", so they can get their "Feminist" Forum-Cred Groovy Cards punched.
QuoteFor some of the trolls, the point is not to improve things for women or to help women and men understand each other better, but to advance a fucked up misogynistic and misandrist worldview that'd be mocked into oblivion anywhere else.
I totally agree. I would certainly describe the kind of worldview that these guys are pushing, and their perceptions of women and what women need, as being absolutely misogynist.
QuoteI liked the idea someone mentioned earlier about encouraging people to invest time and energy in other sites that actually do talk about roleplaying (and in a productive way) and brain-drain the Skotos sites. I'm still working my way through the threads here, but I have started to post about more than just TBP. ;)
Yes. All fantasizing aside, you don't actually need to "buy rpg.net" or something like that to beat it. You just need to make theRPGsite into an increasingly noticeable alternative for both posters and the industry alike.
A smarter question than asking "how could we buy/shut-down/change rpg.net" might be "how can we get more dissatisfied people on rpg.net to know about and try out this site"?
That's the question that would really scare the modclique, and its evident from the way they try to shut down all (legitimate, non-denigrating) references to theRPGsite. They're scared of it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;554213A smarter question than asking "how could we buy/shut-down/change rpg.net" might be "how can we get more dissatisfied people on rpg.net to know about and try out this site"?
Take out an advert with the network that serves rpgnet. :D
Quote from: The Traveller;554219Take out an advert with the network that serves rpgnet. :D
That would be funny. A banner ad displayed on rpg.net along the lines of, "Talk about RPGs, without worrying of getting banned for not being part of a clique."
Quote from: The TravellerTake out an advert with the network that serves rpgnet. :D
Quote from: Sacrosanct;554222That would be funny. A banner ad displayed on rpg.net along the lines of, "Talk about RPGs, without worrying of getting banned for not being part of a clique."
Brilliant!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;554222That would be funny. A banner ad displayed on rpg.net along the lines of, "Talk about RPGs, without worrying of getting banned for not being part of a clique."
I would pay hard earned cash just to see the bulging eyes.
The RPGSite.com, a better alternative to rpg.netCan you get them animated or is it just static?
Failing that, according to my "So you want to take over the world, But you don't want to pay for it" handbook, just build up the creative trust here. The rest will happen by itself.
CNN: The world is on fire!
Rpg.net:
Poster one: I think all this talk of fire is part of the gay agenda.
Poster Two: That's crazy talk, fire is so very hetronormative!
Mod: poster one banned.
BBC: The world is on fire! Millions dead as civilization collapses.
Therpgsite: Hey, they're banning people at rpg.net! Let's fap!
Quote from: The Traveller;554228I would pay hard earned cash just to see the bulging eyes.
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.I just dipped into my aforementioned vacation fund; I'll throw $100 towards buying 100,000 "impressions". We need a "468x60 JPG file, no larger than 64k in size".
Relevant details here (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17721&it=1).
The banner ad does have to be emailed to Shannon Appelcline, though, so there's a good chance it'll get spiked. But he'd have to refund the money then.
Somebody want to whip something up?
If Shannon gets to make the okay, then just make it a neutral ad for the 'Site. No goading, just a simple ad.
I think it'd still have the same effect.
Quote from: KenHR;554235If Shannon gets to make the okay, then just make it a neutral ad for the 'Site. No goading, just a simple ad.
"theRPGsite: A forum for discussing roleplaying games. AND NOTHING ELSE."
Quote from: Aos;554230CNN: The world is on fire!
Rpg.net:
Poster one: I think all this talk of fire is part of the gay agenda.
Poster Two: That's crazy talk, fire is so very hetronormative!
Mod: poster one banned.
BBC: The world is on fire! Millions dead as civilization collapses.
Theprgsite: Hey, they're banning people at rpg.net! Let's fap!
Yesssssssss! :cool:
Quote from: daniel_ream;554238"theRPGsite: A forum for discussing roleplaying games. AND NOTHING ELSE."
That's not
strictly true.
How about "theRPGsite: The Mos Eisley Cantina of RPG forums." :D
Quote from: daniel_ream;554233
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
I just dipped into my aforementioned vacation fund; I'll throw $100 towards buying 100,000 "impressions". We need a "468x60 JPG file, no larger than 64k in size".
Relevant details here (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17721&it=1).
The banner ad does have to be emailed to Shannon Appelcline, though, so there's a good chance it'll get spiked. But he'd have to refund the money then.
Somebody want to whip something up?
INTERESTING. I sincerely doubt anything mentioning this site would be allowed, I thought it was a general adverts agency serving lots of sites.
Taking requests and suggestions:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/k2h82w.jpg)
Quote from: One Horse Town;554245That's not strictly true.
How about "theRPGsite: The Mos Eisley Cantina of RPG forums." :D
I can definitely see that.
Quote from: The Traveller;554247INTERESTING. I sincerely doubt anything mentioning this site would be allowed, I thought it was a general adverts agency serving lots of sites.
The linked advertising purchase is RPGNet-only, and OKed by them.
What you want is a purchase with the Gamerati Network:
http://gamerati.com/ads/
They don't have approval over that content (although it only serves a portion of the RPGnet banner traffic).
Quote from: GMSkarka;554249The linked advertising purchase is RPGNet-only, and OKed by them.
What you want is a purchase with the Gamerati Network:
http://gamerati.com/ads/
They don't have approval over that content (although it only serves a portion of the RPGnet banner traffic).
That's the one I was thinking of alright. The site hits linked to in the earlier link make for fascinating reading though, especially when you consider their price for advertisements. The maximum earning power can be theoretically calculated, although a brief glance doesn't indicate they are near that.
http://www.quantcast.com/rpg.net#!summary
Also with I assume 370,000 odd unique visitors each month, how come the actual membership is so low? I've some experience with this stuff, and you'd expect a far higher ratio of members to visitors. Well, rhetorical question I suppose.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;554151Really? Because when I buy rpg.net, I'll make everyone have R rated avatars.
I'll get mine ready this weekend.
JG
Quote from: GMSkarka;554249The linked advertising purchase is RPGNet-only, and OKed by them.
What you want is a purchase with the Gamerati Network:
http://gamerati.com/ads/
They don't have approval over that content (although it only serves a portion of the RPGnet banner traffic).
Yeah, that one. I don't think a banner ad would change anything, but if done right it sure would be really funny.
Quote from: The Traveller;554219Take out an advert with the network that serves rpgnet. :D
Like I said, suppress dissent or take the ad money?
JG
Quote from: One Horse Town;554245How about "theRPGsite: The Mos Eisley Cantina of RPG forums." :D
This one I like the most.
And what about "theRPGsite: The Casablanca of RPG forums"?
Quote from: The Traveller;554228I would pay hard earned cash just to see the bulging eyes.
The RPGSite.com, a better alternative to rpg.net
Well, maybe we should raise some money... Though I think we should probably use something like: "theRPGsite... for non-tangential discussion, and free speech about roleplaying".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Frundsberg;554266This one I like the most.
And what about "theRPGsite: The Casablanca of RPG forums"?
With the coming of the Great Rape Culture War, many eyes in imprisoned RPGnet turned hopefully, or desperately, toward the freedom of the Actual Gaming. Enjoying The Hobby became the great embarkation point. But not everybody could get to Enjoying The Hobby directly; and so a torturous, round-about refugee trail sprang up. StoryGames to ENWorld, across the Lawncrapper Sea back to RPGnet, then by permabanning or sockpuppeting or flameout to The RPG Site in Uruguayan Morocco. Here the fortunate ones through money or influence or luck might obtain exit visas and scurry to Enjoying The Hobby, and from Enjoying The Hobby to Actual Gaming. But the others wait in TheRPGSite, and wait and wait and wait....Nah, doesn't work. TheRPGSite is more like Portugal or the Americas in that equation.
(Incidental semi-Godwin?)
In the year of our Lord 2002, the Justified Ancients of Mu Mu
Set sail in their longboats, on a voyage to rediscover the Lost Continent
After many months on perilous, stormy seas, they're search was fruitless
Just when all seemed lost, they discovered THERPGSITE!
The music you are about to experience is a celebration
Of the 1000th anniversary of their founding of this great nation...
...
KLF, over...and out
Quote from: RPGPundit;554213A smarter question than asking "how could we buy/shut-down/change rpg.net" might be "how can we get more dissatisfied people on rpg.net to know about and try out this site"?
RPGPundit
I think this is a solid forum and doesn't really need to change the recipe, but some things that on the periphery that I think might help bring in traffic are:
Regular Reviews with Regular Reviewers
We have good reviews here as is. The one thing rpgnet does that we dont is have a regular schedule (mon-wed-fri)---at least one that I have detected. But lately they have been only posting reviews on one of those days (sometimes two). On average I think we actually have more (but that is just a guess). Some days we even get multiple reviews. I think leaving the reviews open to anyone as they are now is good, but maybe we could add some key days for regular reviews from regular reviewers (perhaps some posters could volunteer to get the ball rolling on this one).
News and Articles
We talk about industry news in the rpg forum and pundit mentions it on his blog (which most of us associate with this site but I am not sure how many people on other sites make that connection or not). Enworld has done pretty well becoming a news source for (mostly) all things pathfinder and paizo. I suppose Pundit could post industry news on the front page (which we do here but normally companies post their own stuff directly). ENworld actually pays people as correspondents. I don't suggest that here, but I think there are enough bloggers here, and some might be interested in doing regular RPGsite columns (everything from industry news to topics of interest)...this will also have the added bonus of giving us stuff to discuss on the general forum.
I also think therpgsite has a different enough point of view that this sort of feature would be welcome among folks who find the other forum article pages just don't appeal to their sensibilities. I think the key is attracting the right range of writers if we were to ever have something like regular articles (because I believe one of our strengths there is a lot more diversity of thought here than you see at first glance).
Again I think theRPGsite works as is. These are just some thoughts I had.
Mongoose have always been really sexist IMO, enough that it's annoyed me. OTOH rpgnet insiders are horrible New Left totalitarians.
A plague on both their houses. :rolleyes:
Quote from: RPGPundit;554279Well, maybe we should raise some money... Though I think we should probably use something like: "theRPGsite... for non-tangential discussion, and free speech about roleplaying".
RPGPundit
Hold out your thumb sideways at arms length in front of you, so it covers the banner I made on the last page. Thats how much space you have to attract their attention. Now blink as fast as you can. That's how much time you have. Eye catching and concise are what's wanted.
Quote from: One Horse Town;554245That's not strictly true.
How about "theRPGsite: The Mos Eisley Cantina of RPG forums." :D
Sure, if you put a .wav of the Mos Eisley theme song on an autoload loop that plays on every page of the site.
Think of what it will add to all the shitfights!
I'd say a pic of a well endowed young woman's chest with "therpgsite" tattooed across it would do the trick, and it's subtly accurate in regards to what you'll find once you arrive.
Quote from: Aos;554314I'd say a pic of a well endowed young woman's chest with "therpgsite" tattooed across it would do the trick, and it's subtly accurate in regards to what you'll find once you arrive.
A bunch of tits?
Hmm.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;554321A bunch of tits?
Hmm.
I was thinking a bunch of boobs and not in the female sense of the definition.:D
If you had any idea of how many times I had to edit that fucking post you'd have just an inkling of an idea of how pissed I am to see that fucking 'f' sitting in the middle of fucking 'pic.'
I find it hilarious that almost all of the adverts I've seen on RPGnet since the shit-storm started are for one of the following...
1) Cheesecake Comics
2) Grim's Products
3) Hot Chicks RPG.
4) Mongoose Publishing
Consequence of text-aware but not context-aware automated ad selection.
Jeepform at GenCon Indy
http://www.story-games.com/forums/discussion/7056/jeepform-at-gencon
Gang Rape
http://jeepen.org/games/gr/
Quote from: Aos;554323If you had any idea of how many times I had to edit that fucking post you'd have just an inkling of an idea of how pissed I am to see that fucking 'f' sitting in the middle of fucking 'pic.'
Does that help?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;554334Does that help?
Yeah, actually it does.
Quote from: steelmax73;554330Jeepform at GenCon Indy
http://www.story-games.com/forums/discussion/7056/jeepform-at-gencon
Gang Rape
http://jeepen.org/games/gr/
Wait
What?
God amighty that bunch of ding-dongs made a fucking RPG out of the Dogme'95 film conventions.
Fuck that.
Quote from: Aos;554336Yeah, actually it does.
No problem.
Quote from: The Traveller;554303Hold out your thumb sideways at arms length in front of you, so it covers the banner I made on the last page. Thats how much space you have to attract their attention. Now blink as fast as you can. That's how much time you have. Eye catching and concise are what's wanted.
I still think that having "non-tangential" in there would be almost a must, ditto with something referring to either free speech or low-moderation, preferably the former.
RPGPundit
Quote from: steelmax73;554330Jeepform at GenCon Indy
http://www.story-games.com/forums/discussion/7056/jeepform-at-gencon
Gang Rape
http://jeepen.org/games/gr/
umm, ...
Expected playing time 30-60 minutes, depending on the number of rapists.
Players: 2+ rapists, 1 victim, no game master
Duration: about 45-90 min, depending on the number or rapists.
That kind of sounds like the view of game cons I get from that thread on TBP.
Quote from: RobMuadib;554393umm, ...
Expected playing time 30-60 minutes, depending on the number of rapists.
Players: 2+ rapists, 1 victim, no game master
Duration: about 45-90 min, depending on the number or rapists.
That kind of sounds like the view of game cons I get from that thread on TBP.
Jeep is just weird and has little to do with what I would define as RPGs.
Old, old news.
Sounds like some sick version of cosplay or something?!?
Quote from: Marleycat;554407Sounds like some sick version of cosplay or something?!?
I genuinely do not want to know, weird Scandanavian bastards.
Meanwhile this should make everyone happy.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2ajp387.jpg)
Quote from: daniel_ream;554238"theRPGsite: A forum for discussing roleplaying games. AND NOTHING ELSE."
Here's another suggestion for the ad text:
theRPGsite: Real Gamers. Real Discussion.(http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35761&d=1272506218)
But I
really like that one immediately above!
theRPGsite: where storygames come to die.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;554415But I really like that one immediately above!
Damn right, as I said, everyone's happy.
I'm happy I got my eye catching advert.
Pundit's happy he's got Tangential.
The angry people brigade are happy they've got something to be angry about.
And hell, Aos is happy he got his mams!
Quote from: The Traveller;554409I genuinely do not want to know, weird Scandanavian bastards.
Meanwhile this should make everyone happy.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2ajp387.jpg)
This one gets my vote.
theRPGsite: Where Ladytron sings about burning up, People have Robin Laws game style quiz results, Cats kill Wizards in one shot, Katana's are just fucking swords, and Pundit doesn't ban you because you dissent.
Wait, how big is this ad again? :p
Alternately the banner should just be plain and read
TheRpgSite, because fuck you"
Quote from: Sinister Brain;554432Wait, how big is this ad again? :p
Looks to be about a fourteen double-d from where I'm sitting.
Quote from: The Traveller;554409(http://i48.tinypic.com/2ajp387.jpg)
:cheerleader:
Quote from: RPGPundit;554375I still think that having "non-tangential" in there would be almost a must, ditto with something referring to either free speech or low-moderation, preferably the former.
RPGPundit
Sure, if you want a bunch of ideological gobbledygook that means nothing to anyone, instead of getting people to actually post here.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;554415Here's another suggestion for the ad text:
theRPGsite: Real Gamers. Real Discussion.(http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35761&d=1272506218)
This is a much better slogan. It gets the same point across, with just a hint of edge, without resorting to preachiness.
"theRPGsite: We're the United Fruit of Role-Playing Game Discussion!"
(I fear that one is a bit subtle.)
Quote from: J Arcane;554440Sure, if you want a bunch of ideological gobbledygook that means nothing to anyone, instead of getting people to actually post here.
This is a much better slogan. It gets the same point across, with just a hint of edge, without resorting to preachiness.
Thank you, J Arcane. A bit of
edge is exactly what I was going for; that and implying those other sites come up short in certain areas.
If it's non-tangential why are there breasts in it?
Quote from: The Traveller;554409I genuinely do not want to know, weird Scandanavian bastards.
Meanwhile this should make everyone happy.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2ajp387.jpg)
I'm sure this is tongue-in-cheek, but I just want to make it clear I would not want the boobs on any real advertisement for theRPGsite.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;554451I'm sure this is tongue-in-cheek, but I just want to make it clear I would not want the boobs on any real advertisement for theRPGsite.
Oh.
Hang on, I have to email Shannon back.
Quote from: The Traveller;554247INTERESTING. I sincerely doubt anything mentioning this site would be allowed, I thought it was a general adverts agency serving lots of sites.
They were running banner ads for Mongoose when the thread was specifically targeting the company. Somehow I don't think that they'll batt an eye at an ad for this place.
Quote from: Aos;554433Alternately the banner should just be plain and read
TheRpgSite, because fuck you"
TheRPGSite, because of reasons!
Though I like Xaviers, Here's another suggestion for the ad text:
theRPGsite: Real Gamers. Real Discussion.
And my careful looking at Shannon's online efforts says he doesn't waste anymore time on RPG.net than he has too:) He seems to focused on http://www.mechanics-and-meeples.com/ and doing like iphone games or something. (his Designer's and dragons book is on my wishlist)
I like Xavier Onassis's the best. The breasts don't bother me but it's not the right message. Too jokey and way too easy a target to prove detractors of this site correct in their minds regardless of the truth.
Edit : Rob wins.:)
The wrong message it sends is not to do with what they think of us or something like that, its that it doesn't actually have anything to do with what we're about here.
The whole point is we're about gaming. They're the ones obsessed with boobs (in one form or another). We talk about RPGs here.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;554487The wrong message it sends is not to do with what they think of us or something like that, its that it doesn't actually have anything to do with what we're about here.
The whole point is we're about gaming. They're the ones obsessed with boobs (in one form or another). We talk about RPGs here.
RPGPundit
True, RPG.net could lose all of its RPG focused forum traffic and 80% of the Tangpack wouldn't notice or care.
Quote from: RPGPundit;554487They're the ones obsessed with boobs (in one form or another).
RPGPundit
No, dude, sorry, but that's me.
Quote from: RPGPundit;554375I still think that having "non-tangential" in there would be almost a must, ditto with something referring to either free speech or low-moderation, preferably the former.
How about this?
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=612&stc=1&d=1340946872)
I cleaned up the gradation on this one:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=613&stc=1&d=1340947981)
Quote from: RobMuadib;554474And my careful looking at Shannon's online efforts says he doesn't waste anymore time on RPG.net than he has too:) He seems to focused on http://www.mechanics-and-meeples.com/ and doing like iphone games or something. (his Designer's and dragons book is on my wishlist)
RPGnet is something I do professionally with Skotos Tech. It gets some of my attention every day. I run my RPG column there (Designers & Dragons: The Column) and I write APs there, alongside any regular discussions I have.
Mechanics & Meeples is something that's entirely personal, which I do in my free time. It came about mainly because I wanted to take control of my board game writing personally, rather than depending on other sites. But, I still ran my co-op game articles over at RPGnet, and will run more ones in the future, now that I'm writing about board games again.
Send me an ad at shannona@skotos.net. Make sure it's work safe. I'll give you our standard small run, which is 125k impressions over a month.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554327Consequence of text-aware but not context-aware automated ad selection.
Much like the moderation.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;554511Much like the moderation.
JG
I am relatively sure that 'RPGnet moderation' and any phrase incorporating the word 'aware' is automatically a paradox of the highest order.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;554442"theRPGsite: We're the United Fruit of Role-Playing Game Discussion!"
(I fear that one is a bit subtle.)
We organise coups in other forums and brutally put down their feeble efforts to, say, tax us? :huhsign:
Quote from: RPGPundit;554375I still think that having "non-tangential" in there would be almost a must, ditto with something referring to either free speech or low-moderation, preferably the former.
RPGPundit
"The RPGSite: We Don't Know Who Foucault Was And We Don't Fuckin' CARE."
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;554415Here's another suggestion for the ad text:
theRPGsite: Real Gamers. Real Discussion.(http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35761&d=1272506218)
I think I like this the best.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;554515"The RPGSite: We Don't Know Who Foucault Was And We Don't Fuckin' CARE."
Damn right we do, he invented a pendulum which can be used to find Templar secrets. :hand:
Quote from: James Gillen;554515"The RPGSite: We Don't Know Who Foucault Was And We Don't Fuckin' CARE."
"theRPGSite: The only things pendulous are the breasts on this banner."
If the intention is to get the 'excluded middle' (i.e. non-politicised gamers) from TBP to check this place out, Xavier's suggestion is the most effective IMO.
It defines this site by what it aspires to be (i.e. a gaming forum) rather than by what it wants to avoid being (i.e. Tangency-tastic).
I'd suggest adding the URL to the advert however. If I saw the ad and didn't know any better, I would guess at it being 'rpgsite.com' before I'd think of trying 'therpgsite.com'. Of course there's always Google, but an unambiguous advert removes that additional barrier to entry.
OTOH requiring prospective members to be smart enough to think of using Google to find what they're looking for may not be a bad thing. ;)
Quote from: Aos;554314I'd say a pic of a well endowed young woman's chest with "therpgsite" tattooed across it would do the trick, and it's subtly accurate in regards to what you'll find once you arrive.
"It's like a "Hooters". Except we have better conversation about Actual Gaming."
God, I can just see the lawncrappers shit themselves over that one. :D :D
Quote from: James Gillen;554515"The RPGSite: We Don't Know Who Foucault Was And We Don't Fuckin' CARE."
I know who that is aimed at and fully endorse the message.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;554415theRPGsite: Real Gamers. Real Discussion.(http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35761&d=1272506218)
I'd have to say this one is the best bet.
Quote from: ShannonA;554502RPGnet is something I do professionally with Skotos Tech. It gets some of my attention every day. I run my RPG column there (Designers & Dragons: The Column) and I write APs there, alongside any regular discussions I have.
Mechanics & Meeples is something that's entirely personal, which I do in my free time. It came about mainly because I wanted to take control of my board game writing personally, rather than depending on other sites. But, I still ran my co-op game articles over at RPGnet, and will run more ones in the future, now that I'm writing about board games again.
Send me an ad at shannona@skotos.net. Make sure it's work safe. I'll give you our standard small run, which is 125k impressions over a month.
Thanks for posting Shannon.
For some reason your post needed moderator approval - probably smothing to do with where/what you were posting from.
Quote from: James Gillen;554515"The RPGSite: We Don't Know Who Foucault Was And We Don't Fuckin' CARE."
Probably a pointless question, but has anyone actually been throwing around references to Foucault to justify this shit?
Quote from: Aos;554489No, dude, sorry, but that's me.
When breasts are criminal, only criminals will have breasts.
Quote from: ShannonA;554502RPGnet is something I do professionally with Skotos Tech. It gets some of my attention every day. I run my RPG column there (Designers & Dragons: The Column) and I write APs there, alongside any regular discussions I have.
Mechanics & Meeples is something that's entirely personal, which I do in my free time. It came about mainly because I wanted to take control of my board game writing personally, rather than depending on other sites. But, I still ran my co-op game articles over at RPGnet, and will run more ones in the future, now that I'm writing about board games again.
Send me an ad at shannona@skotos.net. Make sure it's work safe. I'll give you our standard small run, which is 125k impressions over a month.
Thanks for joining Shannon. Have you any comment on the events surrounding this venture?
theRPGsite: Kinda Like Dragonsfoot With Cuss Words, More Games and Less Bans(http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35761&d=1272506218)
Quote from: jeff37923;554540I'd have to say this one is the best bet.
Yep. Simple and concise.
Quote from: _kent_;554562theRPGsite: Kinda Like Dragonsfoot With Cuss Words, More Games and Less Bans(http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35761&d=1272506218)
Those are some big letters.
can we have a change to the thread title soon? Something like "peoples wet dreams of buying/advertising on rpg.net" maybe?
Quote from: Melan;554522Damn right we do, he invented a pendulum which can be used to find Templar secrets. :hand:
Good answer, terrific book. :D
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;554627can we have a change to the thread title soon? Something like "peoples wet dreams of buying/advertising on rpg.net" maybe?
Not a dream; I have the money and am prepared to use it, but ultimately it's Pundit's call.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554644Not a dream; I have the money and am prepared to use it, but ultimately it's Pundit's call.
I think its great you are making this offer. Like you say, its pundit's call, but I think it could have an impact.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554644Not a dream; I have the money and am prepared to use it, but ultimately it's Pundit's call.
"Peoples righteous/evil mastermind plots to buy/advertise on rpg.net*", then.
[edit] *and thereby supporting the operation of said forum.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554644Not a dream; I have the money and am prepared to use it, but ultimately it's Pundit's call.
I've already said, I'm ok with someone doing it; but no boobs or other nonsense like that.
My favorite would still be something like: "theRPGsite: Free RPG speech, no Tangencies".
But if a single person is actually going to pony up the money for it, then I'm willing to be flexible about the motto. I just think it'd piss off the tangency fashionistas to have it explicitly insulting them. Isn't the free market a beautiful thing?
RPGPundit
While I think Xavier Onassiss' slogan was the best (concise, non-shit-stirring), maybe:
theRPGsite: More Gaming, Less Tangents
would work?
Quote from: RPGPunditMy favorite would still be something like: "theRPGsite: Free RPG speech, no Tangencies".
Traveller, if you want to work that up into a non-boobified banner with an explicit URL, I'll start the ball rolling.
Can someone clue me in on the whole Tangency thing? Why is it a bad thing?
I know it's a forum for off-topic discussion, but I'm not seeing the connection.
Quote from: The Traveller;554556When breasts are criminal, only criminals will have breasts.
"Are you crazy, kid? You'll shoot your eye out with that thing!"
Quote from: 1989;554689Can someone clue me in on the whole Tangency thing? Why is it a bad thing?
I know it's a forum for off-topic discussion, but I'm not seeing the connection.
Tangency, as the name implies, is basically for off-game topic discussion, but the point being made here is that the politicization of everything on Tangency is spreading over into the gaming stuff, e.g. the idea that Mongoose is promoting a "rape culture".
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;554692Tangency, as the name implies, is basically for off-game topic discussion, but the point being made here is that the politicization of everything on Tangency is spreading over into the gaming stuff, e.g. the idea that Mongoose is promoting a "rape culture".
JG
Yeah, I think that might be too subtle, if even I, a former poster there, don't get it.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554680Traveller, if you want to work that up into a non-boobified banner with an explicit URL, I'll start the ball rolling.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/e7xk7r.jpg)
The ad should link straight to the site once its set up so a URL isn't needed, thats normal practise. Or right click and "view" or save as, whichever you meant.
Pundit I hope you're getting Danny a nice christmas present this year!
Just prepare yourselves. We're going to get a rush of people from both SA and rpg.net fucking with the site, and when they get banned for site disruption, they're going to post every place they can think of that the site isn't Free Speech.
Quote from: CRKrueger;554698Just prepare yourselves. We're going to get a rush of people from both SA and rpg.net fucking with the site, and when they get banned for site disruption, they're going to post every place they can think of that the site isn't Free Speech.
I agree. I don't like the "Free Speech" bravado for that reason.
I much prefer something like "Actual game discussions for real gamers" or something to that effect.
Xavier said it best it's clear, concise, and non-inflammatory.
Quote from: CRKrueger;554698Just prepare yourselves. We're going to get a rush of people from both SA and rpg.net fucking with the site, and when they get banned for site disruption, they're going to post every place they can think of that the site isn't Free Speech.
That's been happening since we went live.
Still, i think we should just name our strengths - gaming discussion for gamers.
Quote from: Marleycat;554706Xavier said it best it's clear, concise, and non-inflammatory.
Yeah I'd get behind something like that. "Real discussions for real gamers" gets at the core of what this place is about, IMO.
The RPG Site- you'll feel young and skinny
I'll second Xavier's idea. Calling out tangency just sounds bad in my head (there's no way you can phrase it such that reading it out loud works). Also, what if we wanted to reuse this ad elsewhere for some reason?
Quote from: The Traveller;554694The ad should link straight to the site once its set up so a URL isn't needed, thats normal practise. Or right click and "view" or save as, whichever you meant.
I think it was me that suggested including the URL. I've used Adblock Plus quite liberally for a long time, so I don't see many adverts when online.
Out of sight, out of mind.
I'd do it intuitively enough if I actually saw the advert, but while just talking about it I seem to have forgotten about 'click on the picture'.
:o
We should consider also implicit warnings, like:
The RPGSite
Where only the Forge is trite
...just not to have someone merrily come here to speak about his love for Dogs in the Vineyard only to discover the dire thing live...
Quote from: Reckall;554745We should consider also implicit warnings, like:
The RPGSite
Where only the Forge is trite
...just not to have someone merrily come here to speak about his love for Dogs in the Vineyard only to discover the dire thing live...
Why?
Quote from: jeff37923;554749Why?
Take it easy on him, jeff, he's been raped several times over the last few years by 4e (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=554715#post554715).
I'll be opening Take Back the Dice a counseling center for 4e survivors. There will, of course, be no statuary or anything square on the premises and the entire structure will be built from tears of senseless and impotent rage. Tuesday evening will be reserved for RPG potlatch, a ritual of healing, wherein everyone produces, waves about, pisses on and then burns the money that WoTC could have had if they had not fired us as customers shortly before violating our dice bags. Brothers and sisters, we shall overcome!
I use a Crown Royal dice bag. The image of someone violating that makes me uncomfortable.
Can I get a hug?
Quote from: CRKrueger;554698Just prepare yourselves. We're going to get a rush of people from both SA and rpg.net fucking with the site, and when they get banned for site disruption, they're going to post every place they can think of that the site isn't Free Speech.
The unavoidable issue is, on a privately owned forum there's no absolute requirement for free speech. Ultimately, everyone posts with the permission of the forum's owner, which he (or the moderators) can withdraw for any reason. But there's an obvious difference between how that power is being used here v. how it's being used elsewhere, and this forum comes much closer to the
ideal of free speech than others.
However, if you go and actually use the words "free speech" in an advertisement for a privately owned forum like this, some folks... goons, swine, trolls, tangency groupies, whatever... are gonna recognize that you've trapped yourself by using that language.
Whipped this up. I think the emphasis on No Agendas, and an implicit invitation to join is a good combo:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=614&d=1341006636)
Quote from: GMSkarka;554783Whipped this up. I think the emphasis on No Agendas, and an implicit invitation to join is a good combo:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=614&d=1341006636)
Not a bad set up.
Should there be multiple banner ads?
Quote from: jeff37923;554795Not a bad set up.
Should there be multiple banner ads?
Could it perhaps flash between the two every 10 seconds or something, or is that not possible with this sort of ad? I dig the one by GMS, as well.
Quote from: KenHR;554752Take it easy on him, jeff, he's been raped several times over the last few years by 4e (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=554715#post554715).
Actually I avoided that after they explained how the nice dark alley had a diagonal movement of 1 (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776). It is true, however, that some are now asking for counseling (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnDNext.aspx)... :rolleyes:
Quote from: jeff37923;554795Not a bad set up.
Should there be multiple banner ads?
You'd need to take out two seperate runs from the looks of things.
Quote from: GMSkarka;554783Whipped this up. I think the emphasis on No Agendas, and an implicit invitation to join is a good combo:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=614&d=1341006636)
That's some good messaging.
Quote from: GMSkarka;554783Whipped this up. I think the emphasis on No Agendas, and an implicit invitation to join is a good combo:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=614&d=1341006636)
I agree. The only change I'd make is to put an asterix after the "no agendas" followed by "except by Benoist" ;)
Quote from: Aos;554758I'll be opening Take Back the Dice a counseling center for 4e survivors. There will, of course, be no statuary or anything square on the premises and the entire structure will be built from tears of senseless and impotent rage. Tuesday evening will be reserved for RPG potlatch, a ritual of healing, wherein everyone produces, waves about, pisses on and then burns the money that WoTC could have had if they had not fired us as customers shortly before violating our dice bags. Brothers and sisters, we shall overcome!
Epic lol.
I approve this post.
Quote from: GMSkarka;554783Whipped this up. I think the emphasis on No Agendas, and an implicit invitation to join is a good combo:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=614&d=1341006636)
Very nice.
Quote from: James Gillen;554692Tangency, as the name implies, is basically for off-game topic discussion, but the point being made here is that the politicization of everything on Tangency is spreading over into the gaming stuff, e.g. the idea that Mongoose is promoting a "rape culture".
JG
More importantly, Tangency rapidly overwhelmed the RPG-centered forums there in terms of influence and significance, to the extreme detriment of those sites. It was also Tangency that encouraged the extreme moderation in the name of "emotional safety" for the precious princess posters there, that ended up leading to what is in essence a group of non-gamers controlling the moderation practices of what is allegedly a roleplaying discussion forum. That's why I joke that the real name for that site ought to be Tangency.net
Traveller, I don't know if I'm too fond of the smiley-face on your banner there; what if instead there was something like, say, a D20?
RPGPundit
Daniel, Skarka's banner is good too, if you prefer it. It'd be your call if you're ponying up the dough.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;554830Daniel, Skarka's banner is good too, if you prefer it. It'd be your call if you're ponying up the dough.
I like the message the best, but the contrast between the antialiased logo and the aliased text is jarring. Traveller, if you can clean it up some I'll consider it a go.
Quote from: GMSkarka;554783Whipped this up. I think the emphasis on No Agendas, and an implicit invitation to join is a good combo:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=614&d=1341006636)
I'm not sure that "No Agendas" is really accurate advertising (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=4771), nor really is "free speech" or "uncensored" entirely accurate, either.
This one uses the motto from the banner with a note about the moderation that shouldn't give the wrong impression, a ".com" in the site name, and some emphasis:
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=615&stc=1&d=1341016597)
(I like the "Join the Conversation" line, and if the banner is bigger, I would put that in instead of the .com addition. What size does this thing need to be exactly? -- Nevermind, looks like Full Banners are 468×60
and Leaderboards are 728×90.)
Attached are two big banner sizes with no text other than the site logo with and without ".com".
Attached are two smaller banner sizes with no text other than the site logo with and without ".com".
I like the addition of the .com. It makes it clearer and if you don't click on the banner you might be intrigued enough to try the URL on your browser yourself. Good move IMO.
Quote from: daniel_ream;554834I like the message the best, but the contrast between the antialiased logo and the aliased text is jarring. Traveller, if you can clean it up some I'll consider it a go.
Here's a version of GMSkarka's message, cleaned up a bit.
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=620&stc=1&d=1341020375)
That's pretty cool. I dig it.
Fixed a couple of things. GMSkarka's message again.
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=621&stc=1&d=1341021066)
I love checking two days of committe discussion about how to best sloganize the forum. Seriously: Its a banner ad. How many people will seriously look at it and think "You know... that was pretty good, but false advertising, dude!"
Quote from: Spike;554880I love checking two days of committe discussion about how to best sloganize the forum. Seriously: Its a banner ad. How many people will seriously look at it and think "You know... that was pretty good, but false advertising, dude!"
All of the RPGPundit haters, the people on RPGnet who like it the way it is, the SA goons, B.T., Pseudoephedrine, and Kyle. Is that good enough for starters? The Internet is full of people looking for a reason to be offended.
Quote from: Spike;554880I love checking two days of committe discussion about how to best sloganize the forum. Seriously: Its a banner ad. How many people will seriously look at it and think "You know... that was pretty good, but false advertising, dude!"
It's better not to purposely paint a bullseye on your chest for every person on the internet with an axe to grind if you can help it? Besides the people we want are like just about all the new posters that have shown up. Only Kaelik has been explicitly trollish but even he is calming down because his focus is 3x. And nobody can say 3x is balanced.
Quote from: Aos;554758I'll be opening Take Back the Dice a counseling center for 4e survivors.
Don't forget the
Rob Heinsoo Wing for Delusional Designers. There will be, of course, no PCs playing World of Warcraft around... : o)
Quote from: John Morrow;554881All of the RPGPundit haters, the people on RPGnet who like it the way it is, the SA goons, B.T., Pseudoephedrine, and Kyle. Is that good enough for starters? The Internet is full of people looking for a reason to be offended.
Haters gonna hate, mang. That's what they do.
Seriously: People on the internet are gonna be offended whatever you put on the banner. Don't put up a banner? People gonna hate because you don't have a banner for them to hate on.
Should I have caveated 'Legitimate complaints'?
I could draw some parallel with the whole culture-of-offence that the entire banner is meant to mock, but frankly I'm too fucking lazy.
Quote from: One Horse Town;554707That's been happening since we went live.
Still, i think we should just name our strengths - gaming discussion for gamers.
Or "The RPGSite - Where Trolls Get Flamed."
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;554911Or "The RPGSite - Where Trolls Get Flamed."
JG
Still (sorry if I play Devil's Advocate again) what about if someone comes here and start talking about Forgite games
just because he likes them? My fanatical D&D/CoC crew enjoys "Primetime Adventures" and "Don't Rest Your Head" as variants of the usual way of playing - they way we enjoy Arkham Horror. Amazingly enough, there
are people who just do that.
Quote from: Reckall;554914Still (sorry if I play Devil's Advocate again) what about if someone comes here and start talking about Forgite games just because he likes them? My fanatical D&D/CoC crew enjoys "Primetime Adventures" and "Don't Rest Your Head" as variants of the usual way of playing - they way we enjoy Arkham Horror. Amazingly enough, there are people who just do that.
I don't particularly care if someone likes Forge games. Just as (being a HERO player) I don't share Pundit's disdain for point-based over random roll character systems. Granted the storygames may cater to those with "Swine" tendencies, but as long as you can control yourself and not mistake this place for democraticunderground.org (or Stormfront) come on in.
JG
Quote from: Reckall;554914Still (sorry if I play Devil's Advocate again) what about if someone comes here and start talking about Forgite games just because he likes them? My fanatical D&D/CoC crew enjoys "Primetime Adventures" and "Don't Rest Your Head" as variants of the usual way of playing - they way we enjoy Arkham Horror. Amazingly enough, there are people who just do that.
I agree I like all sorts of games and enjoy different playstyles it just has to match whatever the expectation of whatever game is in question.
Quote from: Reckall;554914Still (sorry if I play Devil's Advocate again) what about if someone comes here and start talking about Forgite games just because he likes them? My fanatical D&D/CoC crew enjoys "Primetime Adventures" and "Don't Rest Your Head" as variants of the usual way of playing - they way we enjoy Arkham Horror. Amazingly enough, there are people who just do that.
Jumping into the conversation here late, but this isn't a what if. There are a number of existing long-time posters who enjoy many Forgite games. I'm one of them. (I also enjoy Arkham Horror - it's been a regular one-off game in my weekly group.)
Personally, I would sell the site on its loose moderation rather than any take on games. The "No Agenda" is OK as a tag-line. Pundit (and other moderators) do have agendas - they've just got enough ethics to stick to minimal moderation, and not trying to silence people who disagree by moderation. I appreciate that, even if I often disagree with him.
As in the poll thread in the Pundit's forum, its a good message but the small text will be lost, see this is how it looks at the size it will be
(http://i48.tinypic.com/1ikacx.jpg)
This is using the font I used earlier
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2wpky1c.jpg)
Nice, clean, and clear; I still think it needs a splash of colour to make it stand out from the background though. Controversy is good in this case! I mean lets face it, this is meant to be a big middle finger to those who would ruin our hobby. Boobs ftw! :D Your call though, I'm happy with either view.
"All of the discussion, none of the agendas"?? Seems to be a bit in-your-face to the residents of RPG.net. Something a little less confrontational would be better.
Why not just stop wasting money and go and post over there "come to the rpgsite, it's better than this" and be done with it.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;554965Why not just stop wasting money and go and post over there "come to the rpgsite, it's better than this" and be done with it.
Stating another site is "better" implies this one is worse.
Take 3 days off as a group attack against RPGnet posters.
Quote from: J Arcane;554966Stating another site is "better" implies this one is worse.
Take 3 days off as a group attack against RPGnet posters.
Yes I get that they will ban the post/poster but the advert won't last five minutes either. I doubt it will attract anyone that doesn't already know of this place. And quite frankly i don't want the pious nutbags of rpg.net here anymore than I did when I tried posting over there. q
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;554961"All of the discussion, none of the agendas"?? Seems to be a bit in-your-face to the residents of RPG.net. Something a little less confrontational would be better.
No. The whole point in doing this IS to confront them. To specifically say "we have this site where there isn't all this modclique bullshit, where the talk about games is actually better, and where you don't have to fear being banned, that your mods have been trying to keep quiet for the last 5 years because they fear losing all the actually good posters to it". Only that's a bit too big to put in a banner.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;555016No. The whole point in doing this IS to confront them. To specifically say "we have this site where there isn't all this modclique bullshit, where the talk about games is actually better, and where you don't have to fear being banned, that your mods have been trying to keep quiet for the last 5 years because they fear losing all the actually good posters to it". Only that's a bit too big to put in a banner.
RPGPundit
Yeah, pretty much this. I also thought it was supposed to be a way to use their revenue against them. I.e., no one can really outright buy the site, so instead of a boycott, use their source of income against them.
Quote from: The Traveller;554953As in the poll thread in the Pundit's forum, its a good message but the small text will be lost, see this is how it looks at the size it will be
(http://i48.tinypic.com/1ikacx.jpg)
It looks like the top of the page banner ads are the larger size to me, which is 728x90. See this (http://s0.2mdn.net/1297440/PrefGld_Shop_728x90.jpg) Amex banner image, which was on the site.
Quote from: The Traveller;554953This is using the font I used earlier
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2wpky1c.jpg)
Nice, clean, and clear; I still think it needs a splash of colour to make it stand out from the background though.
I like the blue. Here's a version I did with some blue taken from a picture of a Uruguay flag. ;)
(http://www.therpgsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=622&stc=1&d=1341080827)
Quote from: John Morrow;555150It looks like the top of the page banner ads are the larger size to me, which is 728x90.
Just going by the numbers I was given. Maybe the larger size is with the other ad network?
Alright already, Daniel, just pick one and go with it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ladybird;553474I had wrote up a rant, but then I realised it just wasn't worth it. So I'm going to buy a Traveller book.
Same. I took this as an opportunity to pick up a copy of Paranoia that I'd meant to own for a while. Not being willing to piss away large chunks of my time waging e-war against these rapemonger activist types, the least I can do is vote with my dollars.
Actually, if you want to help Mongoose Publishing out, you might want to consider joining their Demo Team and run demonstration games.
Info linked here. (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/demoteams.htm)
There are some pretty benefits to doing this from what I have read so far of their info, and not just sticking it to activist wankers who want to damage the hobby.
Quote from: RPGPundit;555199Alright already, Daniel, just pick one and go with it.
Yeah, +1, this, all that. Hopefully we haven't missed an opportunity; is anyone browsing tBP still? Are the banhammers still clanging throughout the night?
I'm going to start with the $25 package and we'll see if they actually let the ad through[1] and then if so I'll bump up to the 100K level.
[1] I promise no boobies.
Quote from: daniel_ream;555304Hopefully we haven't missed an opportunity; is anyone browsing tBP still? Are the banhammers still clanging throughout the night?
No, the rampant banning stopped for the most part on Thursday. As have the threads concerning Desborough and forcing game ratings.
Gimme da word boss, you'll getcher banner.
/knuckles
Its fair to say the reasons for proceeding with it haven't changed in the slightest. They are still out there, calling this one a win.
Well let me know when/if its up. And I don't think we've missed an opportunity, this is going to be a good moment, in my opinion.
RPGPundit
I've tried to buy the ad space four times now, and both rpgnow and dtrpg both time out when redirecting to their payment processors.
Has anyone bought anything from them in the last 24 hours? I'm wondering if it's the whole site or just the ad item that's causing it.
Quote from: daniel_ream;555361I've tried to buy the ad space four times now, and both rpgnow and dtrpg both time out when redirecting to their payment processors.
Has anyone bought anything from them in the last 24 hours? I'm wondering if it's the whole site or just the ad item that's causing it.
I'd wait to check your bank statement, because i'm betting you are going to get charged 4 times for this.
There have been massive, massive storms in the central and northeast US; depending on who the providers rely on for back-end serving it may be that particular provider is suffering an outage. Spotify, Amazon and Paypal were all affected.
Quote from: daniel_ream;555361I've tried to buy the ad space four times now, and both rpgnow and dtrpg both time out when redirecting to their payment processors.
Has anyone bought anything from them in the last 24 hours? I'm wondering if it's the whole site or just the ad item that's causing it.
Large portions of Indiana, Maryland, Ohio, and Virginia (including DC) are without power since Thursday night, thanks to a huge storm.
Just the good lord's way of telling thee to stop wasting your money.
Heh. (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/rpg-biotruth-grognards.php)
QuoteHow Dare You Attempt to Otherize My Undead Horde
Friday, June 29, 2012 Update by Baron Vilectus de Outrage
Gaze upon the host of Vilectus and tremble, mortals. The undying are at the gates of your pitiful castle and we are here to seek revenge against the kyriarchy that has oppressed us and indoctrinated you for a hundred generations. I have seen how your so called "Paladins of Justice" have mistreated my skeleton envoys.
...
My disgust grows with each day of this siege. First it was the berserkers, sent forth to greet my first echelons of bloat zombies with their fury. The berserkers were a living reminder that you do not take mental illness seriously, men so blinded by the patriarchy that they saw my warriors as nothing but an outlet for their rage.
I watched in horror as they cleaved into the zombies with their phallic swords and spears, penetrating the ranks as they would a woman. I had no choice but to liquefy them with a cloud of acid. Believe me, I took no pleasure in it, for they are victims of the patriarchy as surely as my undead horde.
(etc.)
;)
Quote from: thedungeondelver;555373There have been massive, massive storms in the central and northeast US; depending on who the providers rely on for back-end serving it may be that particular provider is suffering an outage. Spotify, Amazon and Paypal were all affected.
That really doesn't speak well of their data center design.
Isn't this idea going to look phenomenally fucking stupid when people come over here and find things like certain rpg's, on the basis they are 'swine/story' games, relegated somewhere completely unrelated?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555713Isn't this idea going to look phenomenally fucking stupid when people come over here and find things like certain rpg's, on the basis they are 'swine/story' games, relegated somewhere completely unrelated?
Only to people that are phenomenally fucking stupid and can't discern the difference. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;555718Only to people that are phenomenally fucking stupid and can't discern the difference. :D
That would be the entire population of earth with but one exception.
Still on about Hot War, eh? :rotfl:
Quote from: CRKrueger;555725Still on about Hot War, eh? :rotfl:
um, no?
Looks like Ghost Whistler is worried about this place becoming more successful.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555723That would be the entire population of earth with but one exception.
There are still relative degrees of stupidity and therefore the ability to screen still has merit. :D
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;555732Looks like Ghost Whistler is worried about this place becoming more successful.
RPGPundit
That's an odd word to use. What do you define as successful in this context? This is just a discussion forum...isn't it?
Quote from: James Gillen;555855There are still relative degrees of stupidity and therefore the ability to screen still has merit. :D
JG
screen stuff sensibly then. Not according to personal and vague whim. I am still not seeing any stickied thread that explains what criteria defines something as an rpg and what is worthy of being an 'other' game.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555871screen stuff sensibly then. Not according to personal and vague whim. I am still not seeing any stickied thread that explains what criteria defines something as an rpg and what is worthy of being an 'other' game.
That is, frankly, Pundit's personal prejudice (or preference, if you will). I don't think this place is perfect, but like I said in several other places in several other ways, RPG.net has lost its original purpose, becoming too much noise-to-signal (fat to meat, etc.) and even if this place doesn't (or can't) get AS much traffic, having a place to actually discuss games without the "tangential" distractions will benefit the hobby more than a forum that turns people off with college-kid agendas, in the same way that we've mentioned that having a version of D&D that people LIKE will benefit the hobby more than a "cool" D&D that people cannot play or take seriously upon examination. Even if a lot of gamers don't actually play D&D, it's a flagship, and if the flagship is not seaworthy, the whole enterprise may sink.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;555873That is, frankly, Pundit's personal prejudice (or preference, if you will). I don't think this place is perfect, but like I said in several other places in several other ways, RPG.net has lost its original purpose, becoming too much noise-to-signal (fat to meat, etc.) and even if this place doesn't (or can't) get AS much traffic, having a place to actually discuss games without the "tangential" distractions will benefit the hobby more than a forum that turns people off with college-kid agendas, in the same way that we've mentioned that having a version of D&D that people LIKE will benefit the hobby more than a "cool" D&D that people cannot play or take seriously upon examination. Even if a lot of gamers don't actually play D&D, it's a flagship, and if the flagship is not seaworthy, the whole enterprise may sink.
JG
James, what's up with the serious post? I totally agree btw, and was thinking of a way to write my thoughts out coherently but you pretty much said what was tumbling around in my mind.
It would be a lot more perfect without the stupid whining about story games and this petulant crap. What good does it do to have people come over here thinking this is the oasis of free speech who like story games only to then find out they aren't welcome. Complete bollocks.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555879It would be a lot more perfect without the stupid whining about story games and this petulant crap. What good does it do to have people come over here thinking this is the oasis of free speech who like story games only to then find out they aren't welcome. Complete bollocks.
The point (IIUC) is not that coming here to talk about story games is evil. Coming here to
preach about story games is. Also, it depends from the topic of the story game. I have no prejudices against "misery tourism" (some however have). But one thing is about to talk about games who explore some darker aspects of the human conditions, a whole different thing is to talk about games who do it by willingly overstepping the boundaries of common decency.
Quote from: Reckall;555883The point (IIUC) is not that coming here to talk about story games is evil. Coming here to preach about story games is.
Also AFAIK it was militant storygaming evangelists who started the backlash embodied by the likes of the Pundit and others. I am continually reminded of that thread from the blatant purple, wherein a member of a storygamer's group had the temerity to keep a secret from the rest of the group.
Apparently the remainder of this evening's entertainment was comprised of the other members of the group trying to bully, intimidate and pressure her into sharing her secret. The hivemind of rpgnet was deeply sympathetic... to the group. Twelve pages in, if I recall correctly, I was the only and first voice to speak up questioning what the fuck exactly they thought they were doing. Of course this was before I had a clear understanding of the bigger picture.
I just don't think they've learned to play well with the other kids, and its emblematic of deeper issues as this whole shitstorm has highlighted. A slapdown now and again, or indeed constantly, does them the world of good.
Quote from: Reckall;555883The point (IIUC) is not that coming here to talk about story games is evil. Coming here to preach about story games is. Also, it depends from the topic of the story game. I have no prejudices against "misery tourism" (some however have). But one thing is about to talk about games who explore some darker aspects of the human conditions, a whole different thing is to talk about games who do it by willingly overstepping the boundaries of common decency.
Yeah, but when people who want to post about, for example, Apocalypse World, have their thread moved to "other games" and get told that they are not playing "real" roleplaying games (despite the characters, dice, gm, etc) - that strikes me as unwelcoming, especially to new people coming here, who likes both Apocalypse World and D&D whateveredition.
But agree that preaching and onewayism is uncool, surely.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;555886But agree that preaching and onewayism is uncool, surely.
Which is exactly what is happening when some mod decides to move threads around. That is EXACTLY the sort of crap that goes on at the site we are all complaining about. To then advertise we are better is beyond hypocrisy.
Quote from: Reckall;555883The point (IIUC) is not that coming here to talk about story games is evil. Coming here to preach about story games is. Also, it depends from the topic of the story game. I have no prejudices against "misery tourism" (some however have). But one thing is about to talk about games who explore some darker aspects of the human conditions, a whole different thing is to talk about games who do it by willingly overstepping the boundaries of common decency.
None of the threads concerned have ever been preachy.
And so what if they are. If someone doesn't want to play games the way pundit likes then just maybe pundit should suck it up. the existence of a 'pro story' opinion will not destroy this website. especially when the pundit cannot even define his terms, as is evidenced by what seems to qualify as an 'other' game and what doesn't.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555890None of the threads concerned have ever been preachy.
And so what if they are. If someone doesn't want to play games the way pundit likes then just maybe pundit should suck it up.
I don't think people evangelising basketball would be particularly welcome here either. What's the difference?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555890the existence of a 'pro story' opinion will not destroy this website.
Yeah its done rpgnet lots of favours. There's no way to seperate the militant storygamers and related nuts from the atmosphere of hostility and oppression that permeates the place. This most recent episode has highlighted this disgrace for all the world to see, so now the tide is turning, and its not going to stop. Which is what happens when you try to bring real life hate machines into an otherwise inoffensive hobby.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555890especially when the pundit cannot even define his terms, as is evidenced by what seems to qualify as an 'other' game and what doesn't.
Why would he want to give ammunition to rules lawyers so they can run as close to the line as possible, and then run weeping for *vibes* and manufactured outrage when they get justifiably banned for dickery?
Quote from: The Traveller;555891I don't think people evangelising basketball would be particularly welcome here either. What's the difference?
Yeah its done rpgnet lots of favours. There's no way to seperate the militant storygamers and related nuts from the atmosphere of hostility and oppression that permeates the place. This most recent episode has highlighted this disgrace for all the world to see, so now the tide is turning, and its not going to stop. Which is what happens when you try to bring real life hate machines into an otherwise inoffensive hobby.
Why would he want to give ammunition to rules lawyers so they can run as close to the line as possible, and then run weeping for *vibes* and manufactured outrage when they get justifiably banned for dickery?
None of these threads have been preachy. Someone just wanted to talk about Apocalypse World on a site that professes to be an open discussion forum for rpgs without agendas. Clearly that's bollocks then.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555889Which is exactly what is happening when some mod decides to move threads around. That is EXACTLY the sort of crap that goes on at the site we are all complaining about. To then advertise we are better is beyond hypocrisy.
I don't disagree with ya, at all.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555892None of these threads have been preachy. Someone just wanted to talk about Apocalypse World on a site that professes to be an open discussion forum for rpgs without agendas. Clearly that's bollocks then.
Was the Other Games forum closed without anyone telling me?
Quote from: The Traveller;555896Was the Other Games forum closed without anyone telling me?
Nah, but it really is a secondary forum - activity, and guess also reader, wise.
But if someone comes to rpgforum, to discuss one of their rpg's of choice, and then are told that's it no a rpg and they can go hang with the computer- and boardgames, that could easily make people pass over a forum like this, I think.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;555899Nah, but it really is a secondary forum - activity, and guess also reader, wise.
But if someone comes to rpgforum, to discuss one of their rpg's of choice, and then are told that's it no a rpg and they can go hang with the computer- and boardgames, that could easily make people pass over a forum like this, I think.
That's not the point. What Ghost Whistler is saying is that he doesn't want to talk about RPGs, he wants to talk about
his game on
his terms, in the process getting right in the face of people who clearly don't want to talk about his game. If enough people are interested in
his game, they'll go and talk about them in the Other Games forum. Nothing stopping them. They aren't doing that? Maybe people just aren't interested in his game.
I'd be curious how this agenda pushing makes him any different from the apparent crimes he accuses the Pundit of.
If you're a "her", GW, apologies and let me know for future reference.
Quote from: The Traveller;555901That's not the point. What Ghost Whistler is saying is that he doesn't want to talk about RPGs, he wants to talk about his game on his terms, in the process getting right in the face of people who clearly don't want to talk about his game. If enough people are interested in his game, they'll go and talk about them in the Other Games forum. Nothing stopping them. They aren't doing that? Maybe people just aren't interested in his game.
I'd be curious how this agenda pushing makes him any different from the apparent crimes he accuses the Pundit of.
If you're a "her", GW, apologies and let me know for future reference.
Are you high?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555904Are you high?
Nice. Do you accuse everyone you can't argue with of being on drugs? Must make life easier I guess, either people agree with you or they're incapacitated by narcotics.
GW just needs something to bitch about at any given time.
Do a search on the word "loathe" and I bet 90% of your results will be his posts, talking about some game or mechanic he doesn't care for.
Quote from: The Traveller;555905Nice. Do you accuse everyone you can't argue with of being on drugs? Must make life easier I guess, either people agree with you or they're incapacitated by narcotics.
So that ridiculous rant was actually serious?
I haven't once started a single thread about a 'story' game. I have no idea what you are actually talking about at this point. You seem to have an agenda, I've no idea what or why.
Frankly I couldn't give a shit if someone did start a thread saying 'story games are better than rpg games'. So what? Either discuss their view with them or don't. It's not fucking scientology is it! You aren't going to get kidnapped and programmed by some nefarious cult.
And spare me the self pity.
Quote from: KenHR;555906GW just needs something to bitch about at any given time.
Do a search on the word "loathe" and I bet 90% of your results will be his posts, talking about some game or mechanic he doesn't care for.
er, what else do you discuss on rpg forums but games and game mechanics you twit.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555908So that ridiculous rant was actually serious?
I haven't once started a single thread about a 'story' game. I have no idea what you are actually talking about at this point.
And yet you seem to have no problem criticising the Pundit for doing something you seem more than happy to support yourself, using the forum to push an agenda. Always with these types its wild accusations and statements first, then doubletalk and backpedalling.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555908Frankly I couldn't give a shit if someone did start a thread saying 'story games are better than rpg games'. So what? Either discuss their view with them or don't.
So what's your problem with them being discussed in Other Games? Text on a screen is text on a screen. You'd rather they get in peoples' faces with their evangelism? If your storygames are so popular, the Other Games section should soon be bustling with discussion. If they aren't, I don't see that the forum has lost anything by not including them under RPGs.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555908And spare me the self pity.
Thats very classy. I can only hope nobody you know ever falls victim to drugs. Anything else you'd like to accuse me of, maybe being of subnormal IQ or something? Maybe a racial slur to top it off?
QuoteQuote from: The Traveller;555910And yet you seem to have no problem criticising the Pundit for doing something you seem more than happy to support yourself, using the forum to push an agenda. Always with these types its wild accusations and statements first, then doubletalk and backpedalling.
I'm not pushing an agenda. You don't get it do you. This isn't an agenda: i'm not here to defend any type of gaming. If people want to discuss story games, indie games, trad games, they should be free to do so just the same as if they want to bash them. I couldn't give a shit if you like them or dislike them, that's the point. Playing games with people's threads by shuffling them around according to some esoteric principle that hasn't even been articulated just makes you a jackass. At least be honest about it.
QuoteSo what's your problem with them being discussed in Other Games? Text on a screen is text on a screen. You'd rather they get in peoples' faces with their evangelism? If your storygames are so popular, the Other Games section should soon be bustling with discussion. If they aren't, I don't see that the forum has lost anything by not including them under RPGs.
You know the answer to that question, don't be assinine.
QuoteThats very classy. I can only hope nobody you know ever falls victim to drugs. Anything else you'd like to accuse me of, maybe being of subnormal IQ or something? Maybe a racial slur to top it off?
Oh get over yourself.
Ad hom attacks like that are fucking pathetic. Being high doesn't mean being a victim of drugs either, something you clearly know fuck all about. Try actually READING what i've written instread of filtering it through your internal prejudice
I think it helps, no matter what side of the fence you are on, to have a sense of humor about these things.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555911Oh get over yourself.
Ad hom attacks like that are fucking pathetic. Being high doesn't mean being a victim of drugs either, something you clearly know fuck all about. Try actually READING what i've written instread of filtering it through your internal prejudice
No, what happened was you drew back for a big ridicule routine swing and it blew up in your face.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go collect a cheque from one of my paying customers, capitalist pig that I am, and maybe snort some coke off a hooker's tits later, depending on the form. If I am high later at least I'll know not to tell you about it.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555909er, what else do you discuss on rpg forums but games and game mechanics you twit.
You can do that without coming across as a bitter basement dweller, man. Seriously.
Quote from: The Traveller;555896Was the Other Games forum closed without anyone telling me?
Nope still there, you can still post to it and everything. No guard dogs at the gate, no pop-up ads declaring you a sub-human. Just a place for games that are not Role-playing Games. You don't even get banned for calling Pundit badnames Every.Single.Time. he moves stuff there (and sometimes just out of the blue crying). No difference between here and purple, really. :rolleyes:
Quote from: KenHR;555917You can do that without coming across as a bitter basement dweller, man. Seriously.
what do you think i'm bitter about?
Quote from: CRKrueger;555928Nope still there, you can still post to it and everything. No guard dogs at the gate, no pop-up ads declaring you a sub-human. Just a place for games that are not Role-playing Games. You don't even get banned for calling Pundit badnames Every.Single.Time. he moves stuff there (and sometimes just out of the blue crying). No difference between here and purple, really. :rolleyes:
Except for the games that are actually roleplaying games that do get moved over there we'd be fine.
It's not even as if he can back up his reason for moving threads other than to say 'swine' as if that actually meant anything.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555932what do you think i'm bitter about?
I gave up trying to figure that out years ago, my man. Not that I tried for that long.
Quote from: KenHR;555937I gave up trying to figure that out years ago, my man. Not that I tried for that long.
Perhaps actually reading the posts of the people you moan about first then. Certainly if you want to avoid looking like a complete twat.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555889Which is exactly what is happening when some mod decides to move threads around. That is EXACTLY the sort of crap that goes on at the site we are all complaining about. To then advertise we are better is beyond hypocrisy.
That's because you seem to still have this illusion that this place wants to be "RPGnet... but better!"
This is not the case.
This place is not RPGnet, nor does it want to be. It is an alternative to RPGnet for people who enjoy role playing games and want to talk about actual gaming and games without the Tangency bullshit, the Swinish pretention that RPGs are art meant to explore the depth of whatever the fuck makes you sound cool and intellectual these days, without the Forgist theory bullshit that wants to construe RPGs as things they are not to promote the storywank of bat penis experts, without all the wank of failed authors who should write fucking books instead of fucking up popular RPGs to change them into something they're not.
The RPG Site is NOT an "emotionally safe" environment. It does not have a vocation to catter to your own delusions of what being welcoming means or does not mean. It is not about "one size fits all", "keeping the peace" or any of that Kool Aid you seem addicted to. It does welcome all manners of actual gamers, but after that, your reputation is pretty much left to what you decide to post and not to post.
If you come across as a whiner who can't get over the fact his threads get moved to another forum and keeps on bitching endlessly about it for years to then keep on posting the same stuff in the wrong places over and over again, then so be it. You'll be treated as such.
Quote from: ghost whistler;555939perhaps actually reading the posts of the people you moan about first then. Certainly if you want to avoid looking like a complete twat.
no i'm getting the last word in!
more seriously, I can't figure out what you're bitter about in your little life, you just channel it all into whinery on this board.
I'm not even sure why the forum it goes in matters. Is someone not using the 'new posts' feature?
Really I'd be okay with a free for all, as long as we could keep religion and politics out of it (which we can never seem to push entirely to the curb).
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555934Except for the games that are actually roleplaying games that do get moved over there we'd be fine.
It's not even as if he can back up his reason for moving threads other than to say 'swine' as if that actually meant anything.
I agree with Ghost Whistler; telling people from TBP to come here because this forum - or more specifically in this case, the moderators - don't have an agenda is disingenuous at best. If there's one thing RPGPundit, Benoist, et al, definitely do have, it's their own agendas. What they bend over backward to avoid doing, however, is censor or ban people. I, for one, can cope with a few silly agendas on the part of the mods as long as we get the chance to pursue a few silly agendas of our own.
Look, you can't on one hand crow about straightforward gaming talk and a lack of agendas, bitch about the like on RPG.net, and then relegate legit RPGs like Apocalypse World or Hot War to the "Other Games" ghetto when they're both clearly RPGs by any rational standard. I don't like or play AW and I pretty much loathe every RPG Vince Baker has ever published, but my loathing doesn't make it any less an RPG. Neither does yours.
The hypocrisy on display here makes several of you look like Tangency-class fucktards.
KoOS
P.S. No, I don't use the "New Posts" function. I read the forums that interest me and ignore the forums that don't.
Quote from: King of Old School;555949P.S. No, I don't use the "New Posts" function. I read the forums that interest me and ignore the forums that don't.
I totally read this in a mean old man voice.
Apocalypse World is in the margins, Hot War is a bog-standard Storygame using task-resolution to determine how players not characters narrate results. Example from a review on purple...
Quote from: Hot War ReviewIt was around this point in the text I realized that Hot War is pretty much designed not as a "story telling game" but more of a "story sharing game". In Hot War's sample text, one character shoots and kills another. Out of game, the players discuss what the results of one shooting the other should be. While there doesn't have to necessarily be any such discussion, the game's emphasis on character agendas, relationships, and traits almost encourages players to think in terms of an overall story rather than life-taking, looting, and leveling. GMs still hold importance and sway of course, but the game is directed more towards a group effort rather than the GM being in full control at all times.
Metagame mechanics from player's PoV rather then character's PoV - DNA of a Storygame. I have Hot War and the reviewer used the wrong term when he says "encourages" players to think in terms of story, the game's mechanics as written require it.
You may not like Pundit's definition of RPGs, and feel free to call him poopypants because of it, but by that definition, Hot War is clearly defined as a Storygame, not an RPG.
This thread should be locked; the original topic has run its course, and whatever the fuck else we're talking about should be in its own thread.
Quote from: Benoist;555943This place is not RPGnet, nor does it want to be. It is an alternative to RPGnet for people who enjoy role playing games and want to talk about actual gaming and games without the Tangency bullshit, the Swinish pretention that RPGs are art meant to explore the depth of whatever the fuck makes you sound cool and intellectual these days, without the Forgist theory bullshit that wants to construe RPGs as things they are not to promote the storywank of bat penis experts, without all the wank of failed authors who should write fucking books instead of fucking up popular RPGs to change them into something they're not.
This is the forum for free speech about RPG's!...except if someone Pundit decided he was in a heroic internet nerdfight with was ever involved in the game at any point, like maybe they shared a lift with a guy who saw a photo of Vincent Baker once. Then it's a swiney storygame, because
reasons.
Yeh, apologies to all for my last spate of posts on this thread. Neither the time nor the place to get into a pissing match like that.
Quote from: Ladybird;555959This is the forum for free speech about RPG's!...except if someone Pundit decided he was in a heroic internet nerdfight with was ever involved in the game at any point, like maybe they shared a lift with a guy who saw a photo of Vincent Baker once. Then it's a swiney storygame, because reasons.
And yet, despite all those "evil silly reasons only the Pundit cares about," you STILL can talk about it on the RPG Site. Funny how that free speech thing works in practice, isn't it?
Actually, Ladybird is objectively wrong as we can freely talk about, in the RPG section of the forum, such games as Eclipse Phase and the aweful Gamma World reboot... both of which involved Bruce Baugh, who is one of the Pundit's nerdfight opponents.
Likewise, I've never seen a White Wolf thread removed, despite the Pundit's undying hatred for their creators. Hell, I'm pretty sure Noblis is still an RPG section game... (countdown until Grimgent post in 5....4....)
Quote from: Gib;555956This thread should be locked; the original topic has run its course, and whatever the fuck else we're talking about should be in its own thread.
Only less than 30 more posts to go though..
Quote from: Benoist;555963And yet, despite all those "evil silly reasons only the Pundit cares about," you STILL can talk about it on the RPG Site. Funny how that free speech thing works in practice, isn't it?
Yeah, but do you really want to talk about a roleplaying game you like, in a place where you cannot do it in the "roleplaying games" forum, because it's not deemed worthy of being an rpg?
I know it'sPunditssiteandhecandowhateverhewantsyadayada and by now I don't think people would really want to discuss these games around here, but that's kinda sad - a lot of people would gladly talk about/play for example Apocalypse World side by side with D&D and Call, and do it without preaching or forcing their issues on others.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;555983Yeah, but do you really want to talk about a roleplaying game you like, in a place where you cannot do it in the "roleplaying games" forum, because it's not deemed worthy of being an rpg?
I know it'sPunditssiteandhecandowhateverhewantsyadayada and by now I don't think people would really want to discuss these games around here, but that's kinda sad - a lot of people would gladly talk about/play for example Apocalypse World side by side with D&D and Call, and do it without preaching or forcing their issues on others.
If the fact that a storygame ought to be talked about in the Other Games section of the site stops you from talking about it at all, then maybe you aren't that interested in talking about the game in the first place?
It's alright though. You can still talk about role playing games if you want to. Unless you're not interested in RPGs themselves, in which case, maybe you ought to register to story-games.com instead?
This place is about talking about actual role playing games and actual gaming. But you still can talk about other types of games, like Chess or Go or Card Games or Computer role playing games or Wargames or Eurogames or Storygames however you want in the Other Games section of the site. Because we too like to talk about and play other games some times.
Quote from: Benoist;555963And yet, despite all those "evil silly reasons only the Pundit cares about," you STILL can talk about it on the RPG Site. Funny how that free speech thing works in practice, isn't it?
Except that you can't discuss it in the forum to which the game belongs.
Quote from: Benoist;555943That's because you seem to still have this illusion that this place wants to be "RPGnet... but better!"
I have never expressed anything that any sane person could reasonably construe that way. All I have said is that pushing threads into another completely unrelated forum is stupid. it's not just biased, leaving people to guess as to whether the game they want to discuss is a 'story game' or not (and thus not an rpg), it's a piss poor way to run a site. It's just bad moderation. I don't care whether you or any other fascist killing machine likes these games or not.
What I'm getting from this is that Ghost Whistler and DKChannelBoredom acknowledge that they can discuss the games they want here, but are pissed that those games are either not RPGs or just not popular enough to garner much discussion.
Quote from: CRKrueger;555954Apocalypse World is in the margins, Hot War is a bog-standard Storygame using task-resolution to determine how players not characters narrate results. Example from a review on purple...
Metagame mechanics from player's PoV rather then character's PoV - DNA of a Storygame. I have Hot War and the reviewer used the wrong term when he says "encourages" players to think in terms of story, the game's mechanics as written require it.
You may not like Pundit's definition of RPGs, and feel free to call him poopypants because of it, but by that definition, Hot War is clearly defined as a Storygame, not an RPG.
By whom, other than pundit.
And why should it being a 'story' game mean it's not an rpg. That's like saying scifi games can't be roleplaying games. It's utterly absurd and it's the sort of silly prejudice that just wastes everyone's time, including his own. What has he gained with all of this? Fuck all.
Quote from: jeff37923;555989What I'm getting from this is that Ghost Whistler and DKChannelBoredom acknowledge that they can discuss the games they want here, but are pissed that those games are either not RPGs or just not popular enough to garner much discussion.
I think you know full well that's bollocks.
Being able to discuss these games on this site isn't the same as being able to discuss them in the right place.
These silly complaints wouldn't even need to exist if the games were treated as they should be. Arguing over inane self imposed private definitions seems to be complete intellectual masturbation.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;555983a lot of people would gladly talk about/play for example Apocalypse World side by side with D&D and Call, and do it without preaching or forcing their issues on others.
That's always the claim, but time and time again it has been proven that when you open the door, they won't be satisfied to stick to their own threads.
Mark my words, you open that can of worms again, and within weeks, every new thread asking for game suggestions will get flooded with recommendations of the latest indie darling, constant thread derails over navel-gazing theorywankery will occur daily, and on the whole they will do everything in their power to derail discussion of regular RPGs as much as possible to push their own Forgist agenda.
The storygamers have been given their chances, on site after site, and this was the result
every fucking time.The policy exists for that reason. It has nothing to do with the Pundit's grudge, it has to do with the fact that even on this site, they were once allowed free reign of the main form, and they did exactly what I just fucking described, just like they do everywhere else.
Storygames are not regular RPGs, and are appointed the forum that best suits their topic, in order to prevent further site disruption of the kind that led to the policy in the first place.
I, for one, find it one of the smartest decisions the moderation of this site ever made.
Now if only we could do the same for fucking D&D edition warring, we'd actually have a real forum again.
Seriously: You are whining about which tab you have to click to get to your thread?
Would you like to comment on the placement of the New Thread button next? Maybe they should have a little more of the warm yellows and reds in the background color?
Quote from: Spike;555980Likewise, I've never seen a White Wolf thread removed, despite the Pundit's undying hatred for their creators. Hell, I'm pretty sure Noblis is still an RPG section game... (countdown until Grimgent post in 5....4....)
Nobilis and the Wolf Wolf games may phrase their advice for the GM and players in narrative terms, but they're still "traditional" as far as the actual gameplay is concerned. I don't think there's ever been any real doubt on whether they count as RPGs or not: merely talking about "stories" instead of "scenarios" isn't quite enough for dismissal.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555993Arguing over inane self imposed private definitions seems to be complete intellectual masturbation.
Yet it seems to be exactly what you are doing.
Yer slacking, Grimgent. I posted about Noblis like...an hour ago, at least.
Quote from: GrimGent;555996Nobilis and the Wolf Wolf games may phrase their advice for the GM and players in narrative terms, but they're still "traditional" as far as the actual gameplay is concerned. I don't think there's ever been any real doubt on whether they count as RPGs or not: merely talking about "stories" instead of "scenarios" isn't quite enough for dismissal.
I concur.
Quote from: Benoist;555986It's alright though. You can still talk about role playing games if you want to. Unless you're not interested in RPGs themselves, in which case, maybe you ought to register to story-games.com instead?
yeah yeah, no need to go all passive-aggressive. It's not a big thing for me and yes, I'm interested in rpg's and discussing them here, from Call over LotFP to Over the Edge and Ars Magica.
Really. It's just the beaten dead horse of "this and that isn't an rpg, 'cause we said so" that bugs me. But as it has been thoroughly beaten, I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: J Arcane;555994The storygamers have been given their chances, on site after site, and this was the result every fucking time.
The policy exists for that reason. It has nothing to do with the Pundit's grudge, it has to do with the fact that even on this site, they were once allowed free reign of the main form, and they did exactly what I just fucking described, just like they do everywhere else.
This. They can't even keep it out of this unrelated thread. These folks ain't right.
Quote from: Marleycat;555999I concur.
You obviously missed where I actually summoned a particular poster... like a wizard.
I swear to only use my power for evil.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556000"this and that isn't an rpg, 'cause we said so" that bugs me.
Good then you shouldn't have a problem with most of the games moved there as their mechanics clearly identify them as a different class of game. :D
For what it's worth i think the 'no agendas' thing is nonsense as well. I also think it was a reaction to what this thread was originally about rather than a description of the site as a whole.
Well, no political or social agendas is closer to the mark. This whole site is one big gaming agenda, really.
Quote from: CRKrueger;556006Good then you shouldn't have a problem with most of the games moved there as their mechanics clearly identify them as a different class of game. :D
Heh - true, and it's not that I don't think that there's games that belong there, story-games or whatever. But Dogs in the Vineyard fx, not only has it got characters, missions, a GM (called a GM!), character creation and the use of all the classic rpg dice, but it also has
"A role-playing game" written on the cover. But hey - it's ok - I'm not a big fan of it.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556009Heh - true, and it's not that I don't think that there's games that belong there, story-games or whatever. But Dogs in the Vineyard fx, not only has it got characters, missions, a GM (called a GM!), character creation and the use of all the classic rpg dice, but it also has "A role-playing game" written on the cover. But hey - it's ok - I'm not a big fan of it.
OD&D used inches for movement, dice and the like, even had a default hex map for its wilderness, talked about "campaigns" (called campaigns!), had a referee (called a referee!) and talked about men-at-arms and objectives, and had "
Rules for fantastic medieval wargames; campaigns playable with paper and pencil and miniatures figures" on its cover! Obviously a wargame.
Quote from: Benoist;556010OD&D used inches for movement, dice and the like, even had a default hex map for its wilderness, talked about "campaigns" (called campaigns!), had a referee (called a referee!) and talked about men-at-arms and objectives, and had "Rules for fantastic medieval wargames; campaigns playable with paper and pencil and miniatures figures" on its cover! Obviously a wargame.
If you say so, I'm not a very old wargamer.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556012If you say so, I'm not a very old wargamer.
But this is a very old arguement.
Quote from: Benoist;555986If the fact that a storygame ought to be talked about in the Other Games section of the site stops you from talking about it at all, then maybe you aren't that interested in talking about the game in the first place?
It's alright though. You can still talk about role playing games if you want to. Unless you're not interested in RPGs themselves, in which case, maybe you ought to register to story-games.com instead?
I'm registered on both story-games.com and here. I play a fairly wide range of RPGs. I comment sometimes in the Other Games section here, but being shunted off to a lower-traffic side forum does discourage discussion. I don't check the Other Games forum that often, and story games discussions there don't go very far.
It's pretty obvious to me that shunting certain games off into a side forum discourages discussion. Pundit commented about this a while ago when RPGnet folded out D&D and Fantasy D20 into a separate forum, calling it an anti-D&D move.
Quote from: jhkim;556017It's pretty obvious to me that shunting certain games off into a side forum discourages discussion. Pundit commented about this a while ago when RPGnet folded out D&D and Fantasy D20 into a separate forum, calling it an anti-D&D move.
It may be obvious to you, but the seperation into a seperate D&D forum seems to have done D&D discussion no harm whatsoever on rpgnet. If anything its busier. On the contrary, seperating storygames here seems to have highlighted that nobody gives a crap about them. Unless the Pundit finally got his "electrocute-storygamers-across-the-internet" device functional and just didn't tell anyone.
Actually the D&D forum at rpg.net is the best thing about the site- at least during edition war lulls.
Quote from: jhkim;556017I'm registered on both story-games.com and here. I play a fairly wide range of RPGs. I comment sometimes in the Other Games section here, but being shunted off to a lower-traffic side forum does discourage discussion. I don't check the Other Games forum that often, and story games discussions there don't go very far.
It's pretty obvious to me that shunting certain games off into a side forum discourages discussion.
Except it usually was not discussion, it was proslytization. A Forgie would pop in and start evangelizing about GNS or the latest Forge darling. When any discussion was tried, there was a lot of bad faith arguement from the Forgie to try and shut any criticism down. It got fucking tiresome really damn quick.
Now, if you are trying to compare the treatment of story-gamers on this site to what happened to James Desborough and Mongoose Publishing, go ahead. Except that you will find very very little in comparison.
This forum is about the discussion of role playing games and gaming. It's not about story games. As such, it really isn't that surprising to see the users of the RPG Site not being that interested in discussing the latest abortion of a game coming out of the Forge-think these days. I'm sorry a few posters still feel like whining about it years after the fact, but here we are, nonetheless.
Quote from: Benoist;556024This forum is about the discussion of role playing games and gaming. It's not about story games. As such, it really isn't that surprising to see the users of the RPG Site not being that interested in discussing the latest abortion of a game coming out of the Forge-think these days. I'm sorry a few posters still feel like whining about it years after the fact, but here we are, nonetheless.
Here's the thing:
1. What differentiates between a storygame and a role-playing game is not an objective line at all, and often overlap one another.
2. If you want to grow this site (as it seems that you do), setting some arbitrary line based only on your personal opinion as to what cannot be discussed will only hinder that.
If someone wants to discuss a storygame/rpg, why not? Just don't participate in the thread if you don't like it.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556025If someone wants to discuss a storygame/rpg, why not?
Indeed, why not?
You can.
In the Other Games section of the site.
Quote from: Gib;556020Actually the D&D forum at rpg.net is the best thing about the site- at least during edition war lulls.
Beyond the shadow of a doubt.
When oldgeezer is actually allowed to post and not subject to the chaotic-neutral application of bans at that 'site what he writes is as compelling as what Gary used to post at Dragonsfoot and Enworld. Moreso, in some ways, since Gary only reluctantly talked about playing (A)D&D, whereas OG will focus on it almost exclusively.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556025Here's the thing:
1. What differentiates between a storygame and a role-playing game is not an objective line at all, and often overlap one another.
2. If you want to grow this site (as it seems that you do), setting some arbitrary line based only on your personal opinion as to what cannot be discussed will only hinder that.
If someone wants to discuss a storygame/rpg, why not? Just don't participate in the thread if you don't like it.
That's exactly what people do here; save a few, they
don't participate in storygaming threads.
Quote from: Benoist;556026Indeed, why not?
You can.
In the Other Games section of the site.
So a poster cannot discuss a role playing game in the role-playing games forum because you think that it's too much like a storygame?
It seems clear by the several declarations of victory whenever that is an increase in membership that increasing members is important. But that seems contradictory to the policy you're advocating.
I mean, it's your guys' forum, do what you want and I don't care. But don't complain if the forum gets criticism and/or not as many new members as you'd like.
Quote from: The Traveller;556019It may be obvious to you, but the seperation into a seperate D&D forum seems to have done D&D discussion no harm whatsoever on rpgnet. If anything its busier. On the contrary, seperating storygames here seems to have highlighted that nobody gives a crap about them. Unless the Pundit finally got his "electrocute-storygamers-across-the-internet" device functional and just didn't tell anyone.
The D&D sub forum is fairly clearly labelled, as is the game itself.
Not quite the same thing as happens here.
Quote from: jeff37923;556021Except it usually was not discussion, it was proslytization.
I have never seen that happen. Not fucking once.
If it's tolerable that they can 'proselytize' in the other forum then they can do so in the rpg forum. Of course this is about marginalising discussion.
Quote from: Claudius;556030That's exactly what people do here; save a few, they don't participate in storygaming threads.
Well if there were discussion about Mage I would participate otherwise I just not that interested in story type games. And Mage isn't really a storygame it just looks like it.
Quote from: Benoist;556024This forum is about the discussion of role playing games and gaming.
Obviously not.
It's about discussing what pundit deems a roleplaying game, even though he cannot adequately explain why, for instance, Apocalypse World (a game I neither own nor intend to play), is not an rpg.
Quote from: Claudius;556030That's exactly what people do here; save a few, they don't participate in storygaming threads.
Then someone who starts a 'story'game thread in the rpg forum won't get very far and the thread will fade, so what's the problem? Are we now saying that only threads that will prove popular be allowed?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556032So a poster cannot discuss a role playing game in the role-playing games forum because you think that it's too much like a storygame?
It seems clear by the several declarations of victory whenever that is an increase in membership that increasing members is important. But that seems contradictory to the policy you're advocating.
I mean, it's your guys' forum, do what you want and I don't care. But don't complain if the forum gets criticism and/or not as many new members as you'd like.
Of course it will get criticism: post this banner ad and this is the first thing that will be discussed, and the critics will be right because pundit doesn't have a leg to stand on, his opinions are purely arbitrary. where they are sold story games are classed as rpgs...if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck...
Quote from: Benoist;556026Indeed, why not?
You can.
In the Other Games section of the site.
Yes, even when "Other Games" includes "RPGs We Don't Like."
But please, tell me again how there aren't any agendas here. It's a cute story!
KoOS
Quote from: Gib;555952I totally read this in a mean old man voice.
I'd like to think of myself as Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino. In reality, I'm probably more like Brian Cox in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, and this is a zoo full of shit-flinging bonobos.
KoOS
Oh yes. You guys are totally oppressed because a thread about some story game gets MOVED into the Other Games forum. So oppressed, in fact, that you whine about it for YEARS non-stop by claiming it's some sort of free speech issue, when in fact it totally isn't, since you can still talk about it on the message boards AND keep on whining for YEARS about your mistreatment in the process.
Thanks for schooling the Pundit on this one. What a prick! :rolleyes:
Quote from: jeff37923;556021Except it usually was not discussion, it was proslytization. A Forgie would pop in and start evangelizing about GNS or the latest Forge darling. When any discussion was tried, there was a lot of bad faith arguement from the Forgie to try and shut any criticism down. It got fucking tiresome really damn quick.
Well, but being fucking tiresome isn't grounds for being shunted off to another forum. There is lots of fucking tiresome shit here - edition wars, for example. It's not like story games were ever threatening to take over the site or drown out other discussion.
The current setup is still better than heavy-handed moderation for me, but I would like some place where people could speak their minds about both traditional RPGs and story games without heavy-handed moderation.
Quote from: Benoist;556049Oh yes. You guys are totally oppressed because a thread about some story game gets MOVED into the Other Games forum. So oppressed, in fact, that you whine about it for YEARS non-stop by claiming it's some sort of free speech issue, when in fact it totally isn't, since you can still talk about it on the message boards AND keep on whining for YEARS about your mistreatment in the process.
Thanks for schooling the Pundit on this one. What a prick! :rolleyes:
Ben, I don't think people
in general think that anyone's oppressed around here. I know I don't.
But as Sacrosanct writes, I think that it could scare some (a lot?) of people away from the site. Some who could be good/cool posters. It's silly that games, that most people consider roleplaying games, is placed in a secondary forum. Unless you don't really want people talking about these games on your forum at all, which is fair nuff, if silly. Just say that then.
Also, isn't whining for years, be it about swine, evil forgeist or oppression, kinda what this forum is all about... right after rpg'ing, ofcourse.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556036I have never seen that happen. Not fucking once.
If it's tolerable that they can 'proselytize' in the other forum then they can do so in the rpg forum. Of course this is about marginalising discussion.
You must be fucking blind as well as bitter if you've never seen that happen. When Ron's essays first made big waves, it killed rpg.net, first in the design section, then in every tabletop gaming forum on there.
You're right that it is marginalizing discussion of certain games, but in this case I don't have a problem with it. Most debates on gaming fora are silly. But when every single discussion is derailed by debates over defining "fun," protagonization, etc etc etc, something has to be done.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556033The D&D sub forum is fairly clearly labelled, as is the game itself.
Not quite the same thing as happens here.
Got your second wind, have you? It doesn't matter what its labelled. Its not like storygame threads are moved with howls of imprecations and threats of violence. If you want to talk about them, do so. In Other Games. If enough people feel like joining in, the place will be abuzz with storygaming jollies.
It doesn't seem like that's happening though.
I mean are you trying to say that storygamers are either too sensitive or too unaware to post in a forum just because of what its called, and that's hardly an offensive name? The "atmosphere" there is interfering with typing ability somehow?
Quote from: jhkimThe current setup is still better than heavy-handed moderation for me, but I would like some place where people could speak their minds about both traditional RPGs and story games without heavy-handed moderation.
There's nothing stopping you from doing so.
Again, I'll ask, if storygames are so compelling, why isn't Other Games abuzz with storygaming threads? This appears to be a case of wanting to advertise your wares in the biggest traffic section of the site; I believe the Pundit has terms and costs regarding advertising publicly displayed. If not, then surely it must stand on its own merits and attract its own audience?
This is bullshit evangelism that doesn't stand up to the barest fingernail scraping of an inspection.
Quote from: Benoist;556049Oh yes. You guys are totally oppressed because a thread about some story game gets MOVED into the Other Games forum. So oppressed, in fact, that you whine about it for YEARS non-stop by claiming it's some sort of free speech issue, when in fact it totally isn't, since you can still talk about it on the message boards AND keep on whining for YEARS about your mistreatment in the process.
Thanks for schooling the Pundit on this one. What a prick! :rolleyes:
I'm assuming this isn't directed at me, but I gotta say, if you're pitching yourself as "the place to talk about RPGs without the fear of agendas or heavy moderation" and
at the same time banish any rpg talk that deals with rpgs that you personally don't like to some backroom forum when the title of
this forum is "role-playing games", then that sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
I think I've established that I'm not a huge fan of storygames. But taking the policy that you seem to be taking is not only counter to what you're professing the site to be to gain membership, but is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Again, if you don't want discussion of RPGs in the
RPG forum except your own personal ones, make that official policy and don't act like you're wanting to grow the site. Because you're not going to. Not with that policy, nor with the snarky replies.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055Ben, I don't think people in general think that anyone's oppressed around here. I know I don't.
Well given the hyperbole and nerdrage that goes into this kind of periodic bitching about storygames and their status coming from a definite, known minority on the RPG Site, I have my doubts, sometimes. You'll excuse me if I lumped you with the others and felt like I was doing you some injustice.
Just backtrack a few pages back, look at the language and rhetoric used here when talking about a thread being moved to another forum that you can still post on and discuss to build a series of strawmen about free speech and being shunted off and all that jazz, and tell me this isn't making a mountain out of mole hill, seriously.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055But as Sacrosanct writes, I think that it could scare some (a lot?) of people away from the site. Some who could be good/cool posters.
Somehow, I doubt most gamers care enough about unpopular story games to get their panties in a twist the way our usual suspects do here when a thread about them gets MOVED (not shut down, nor ostracized, nor banished, nor shunted off, nor whatever hyperbole you might want to come up with, but MOVED), and for those that would care to such an extent as to be "scared away from the site", well, that would say something about them that would also make me doubt whether they'd be good additions to the Site's population in the first place.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055It's silly that games, that most people consider roleplaying games, is placed in a secondary forum. Unless you don't really want people talking about these games on your forum at all, which is fair nuff, if silly. Just say that then.
You can talk about them. On the Other Games forum. It's just that this Site is primarily dedicated to actual, traditional role playing games, and that is its main focus. Part of the reason for the existence of the RPG Site is precisely that there needs to be a place somewhere where you can talk role playing games without having Forge theory Swine and Story Swine and all their followers invading the place like they did on so many other gaming forums. Won't happen here, and YET, you can STILL talk story games if you want. On their dedicated forum. In Other Games.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055Also, isn't whining for years, be it about swine, evil forgeist or oppression, kinda what this forum is all about... right after rpg'ing, ofcourse.
Actually no. If you look at the entire sum of threads that have been posted on the RPG Site since its creation, it is OVERWHELMINGLY about Role Playing Games and Gaming FIRST, way beyond any other topic of conversation, Swine-bashing included.
Quote from: Benoist;556066It's just that this Site is primarily dedicated to actual, traditional role playing games, and that is its main focus..
Well, then it seems like the fix is an easy one. Rename this forum to "traditional role-playing games", and add a subforum called "storygames"
That way you have an official policy that enables you to move any storygaming talk out of this main forum without coming off as just moving it to be a dick.
This forum was founded on and continues to be fueled by just being a dick, and for once, I'm not kidding.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556065I'm assuming this isn't directed at me, but I gotta say, if you're pitching yourself as "the place to talk about RPGs without the fear of agendas or heavy moderation" and at the same time banish any rpg talk that deals with rpgs that you personally don't like to some backroom forum
Banishment in this case bears exactly no consequences. In other words its not banishment. The "backroom forum" is as publicly available as any other forum.
This comes down to wanting storygames to be recognised as RPGs. They aren't. WoW bills itself as an RPG too, but it isn't, in exactly the same way.
Quote from: jhkim;556053Well, but being fucking tiresome isn't grounds for being shunted off to another forum. There is lots of fucking tiresome shit here - edition wars, for example. It's not like story games were ever threatening to take over the site or drown out other discussion.
The current setup is still better than heavy-handed moderation for me, but I would like some place where people could speak their minds about both traditional RPGs and story games without heavy-handed moderation.
Having a thread moved from one forum where you can say anything you want to another forum where you can say anything you want, and then you can bitch about the move anytime you want is "heavy-handed" huh? If you say so.
Quote from: The Traveller;556071This comes down to wanting storygames to be recognised as RPGs. They aren't.
Precisely so. All the rest is just a smoke screen.
Quote from: KenHR;556060You must be fucking blind as well as bitter if you've never seen that happen. When Ron's essays first made big waves, it killed rpg.net, first in the design section, then in every tabletop gaming forum on there.
You're right that it is marginalizing discussion of certain games, but in this case I don't have a problem with it. Most debates on gaming fora are silly. But when every single discussion is derailed by debates over defining "fun," protagonization, etc etc etc, something has to be done.
I only occasionally stop by rpg.net, so I don't have a good idea about what happened over there. My main online discussion spots have been before on rec.games.frp.advocacy, The Forge, here, LiveJournal, and story-games.com. Of these, I liked most rgfa and here specifically because of the lack of heavy-handed moderation. I prefer it when people feel free to speak their mind, and disagreements get actually hashed out. For example, one of the things that ticked me off most at The Forge was Ron's moderation. He rarely banned posters, but was really quick to shut down threads when they went in a direction that didn't go along with the desired view.
I trying to understand your view from this. Are you saying that discussion of story games is a danger, and that there needs to be active policing to keep that discussion out of the RPG forum here?
From my point of view, I think heavy-handed moderation to separate out undesired points of view are a cure worse than the disease - regardless of whether that view is OSR, story games, 4e fans, or what have you.
What does any of this have to do with the actual thread topic?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556068Well, then it seems like the fix is an easy one. Rename this forum to "traditional role-playing games", and add a subforum called "storygames"
That way you have an official policy that enables you to move any storygaming talk out of this main forum without coming off as just moving it to be a dick.
The people that object to moving it would still object because they deny the distinction between a game that has primarily metagame-driven story mechanics with roleplaying in it, and a role-playing game.
Pundit makes the change you suggest and then the debate about the word "traditional" and "storygame" starts.
When they're not specifically trying to be intellectually dishonest, people know what the difference is, they just don't like the classification. Well, open your own forum then, or call Pundit a useless cocksucker (you have the freedom to do that) and then go talk about your Storygame in the other forum.
Or you know, if you really were that into that type of game, you could go to Story-games.com (http://www.story-games.com/forums/). An AW thread is right on the first forum page with 58 replies. Go for it!
Quote from: Marleycat;556077What does any of this have to do with the actual thread topic?
Damned if I know.
(and yes, I decided to take a short break from my Deadpool avatar, cause Curly needed to be represented, yo! ;) )
Quote from: Novastar;556082Damned if I know.
(and yes, I decided to take a short break from my Deadpool avatar, cause Curly needed to be represented, yo! ;) )
Heh, Jack Palance is a good choice.:)
Quote from: jhkim;556076I only occasionally stop by rpg.net, so I don't have a good idea about what happened over there. .
What happened over there is that they promoted Rand to a moderator and now he's banning people for things like starting a sentence on a new line (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634634-Infraction-for-Seneschal-of-the-sun-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) rather than continue it in a more traditional paragraph form.
Quote from: jhkim;556076I trying to understand your view from this. Are you saying that discussion of story games is a danger, and that there needs to be active policing to keep that discussion out of the RPG forum here?
It is not dangerous, but it is off-topic. This forum is not for Story Games and I for one welcome that.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556087What happened over there is that they promoted Rand to a moderator and now he's banning people for things like starting a sentence on a new line (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634634-Infraction-for-Seneschal-of-the-sun-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) rather than continue it in a more traditional paragraph form.
Thank God it got reversed I have no idea how you can ban somebody for bad grammar and expect to be taken seriously.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556087What happened over there is that they promoted Rand to a moderator and now he's banning people for things like starting a sentence on a new line (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634634-Infraction-for-Seneschal-of-the-sun-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) rather than continue it in a more traditional paragraph form.
...what...
Quote from: Marleycat;556090Thank God it got reversed I have no idea how you can ban somebody for bad grammar and expect to be taken seriously.
Well, it's indicative of why so many people who are on this site prefer this forum, storygame discussions or no. They promoted Rand and Kai, who immediately went on banning crusades against anyone they don't like (Rand especially), and the admin's positions are heavily into a "rather than admit we were wrong in promoting these guys, we'll circle the wagons and let it continue."
Now, I know Cessna isn't a bad guy. But his problem is that he's old school military. Being military myself, I know what that's like. He's gonna cover for his team, right or wrong, every time. That's why he gets so defensive whenever someone criticizes a mod. And that's why he'll never admit that it was a huge mistake to promote them.
Quote from: Marleycat;556077What does any of this have to do with the actual thread topic?
Ghost has sand in his vagina again about the Other Games forums. He'll rant like a screaming banshee (his avatar is fucking perfect) for a while and then go on to something else probably FFG related. In the meantime, a couple people will come on to point out how horrible and restrictive this site is with complete immunity. It happens every so often.
Quote from: jhkim;556076I trying to understand your view from this. Are you saying that discussion of story games is a danger, and that there needs to be active policing to keep that discussion out of the RPG forum here?
From my point of view, I think heavy-handed moderation to separate out undesired points of view are a cure worse than the disease - regardless of whether that view is OSR, story games, 4e fans, or what have you.
"Dangerous" is a silly way to put it. Nothing that gets discussed on these boards is dangerous. It's all pissing in the wind. If anyone thinks anything that happens on an rpg board is dangerous or in any way important, they need to take some time off and re-evaluate their lives.
I'm saying exactly what I said: there are people who, for whatever reason, feel the need to bring their "gaming theory" ideas into every thread and shit up whatever discussion is going on. At rpg.net it got so you couldn't discuss trad games for years, because someone would come in with Fantasy Heartbreaker this and Big Model that and on and on ad infinitum.
There was a guy who showed up here about a year after I joined (he had a Where's Waldo avatar) who did exactly what I described in just about every thread on the RPG board. Before that, Lev Lafayette did the same thing before he found rpg.net.
I, too, miss rgfa, though I only lurked there. That was "theory" discussion that actually had a grounding in reality, and those theories were tested by actual play, not the kind of shit Ron and Levi started preaching on BBSs. But our current governor decided that Usenet was a danger to society and basically got it outlawed in NYS when he was AG. I still hate the fucker for that.
QuoteOne of the RPGnet rules is "respect your fellow posters," and one of the ways we expect you to do this is by using correct grammar and spelling and by making posts that other users can read easily. I've admonished you in the past on multiple occasions for your sloppy and frequently incomprehensible posting habits, and been ignored. This time, I'm throwing in a sanction.
Please take the time to post coherently and with respect for the rules of grammar, or refrain from posting at all.
Ahem...
QuoteOne of the RPGnet rules is to "respect your fellow posters," and one of the ways that we expect you to accomplish this is by using proper grammar and spelling, and by making posts that other users can easily read. I have admonished you in the past, on multiple occasions, for your sloppy and frequently incomprehensible posting habits, and have been ignored. This time, I'm throwing in a sanction.
Please take the time to post in a coherent manner and with respect for the rules of grammar, or refrain from posting at all.
I figure I've missed a few, but Glass Houses and all that... ;) :p :rolleyes:
Quote from: CRKrueger;556095Ghost has sand in his vagina again about the Other Games forums. He'll rant like a screaming banshee (his avatar is fucking perfect) for a while and then go on to something else probably FFG related. In the meantime, a couple people will come on to point out how horrible and restrictive this site is with complete immunity. It happens every so often.
I really don't get why it's so bad to post in other games if you're talking White Wolf or FFG, or even Shadowrun. The main forum is implicitly for Dnd centric games. It really isn't rocket science.
As I said if anybody ever wants to talk Mage I would be right there participating but most storygames, or in that style don't interest me so I don't participate in whatever thread that may be made.
Quote from: Marleycat;556099I really don't get why it's so bad to post in other games if you're talking White Wolf or FFG, or even Shadowrun. The main forum is implicitly for Dnd centric games. It really isn't rocket science.
As I said if anybody ever wants to talk Mage I would be right there participating but most storygames, or in that style don't interest me so I don't participate in whatever thread that may be made.
Actually you can talk WW or the 40k RPGs or Shadowrun all day long here, as they're not Storygames. :D
WH40k RPG is one of the few areas where I and Pundit disagree, actually. He see's it as "misery tourism", where as I enjoy the "grim darkness". :p ;)
Quote from: CRKrueger;556100Actually you can talk WW or the 40k RPGs or Shadowrun all day long here, as they're not Storygames. :D
What was GW's complaint again? I assumed he is big into 40k stuff. Personally I love Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and WFRP 1/2e.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556087What happened over there is that they promoted Rand to a moderator and now he's banning people for things like starting a sentence on a new line (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634634-Infraction-for-Seneschal-of-the-sun-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) rather than continue it in a more traditional paragraph form.
What the BALLS.
Quote from: Novastar;556098Ahem...
I figure I've missed a few, but Glass Houses and all that... ;) :p :rolleyes:
Its funny listening to the sucking sounds in the TT thread as various posters disengage themselves from mods' arseholes long enough to voice a feeble +1 disagree with this insane abuse of power. Looks like the emporer's clothes are finally on display, and I'm not just talking about Rand.
Quote from: Marleycat;556102Personally I love WFRP 1/2e.
You know, I really wouldn't have guessed. I pegged you for a high magic sort of person. And while my WFRP 1e experience is limited to only a dozen or so sessions, the magic users in that game always felt way underpowered compared to the other careers.
Quote from: Marleycat;556102What was GW's complaint again? I assumed he is big into 40k stuff.
He is, he just hates that FFG hasn't made an Eldar game yet, or Dark Heresy doesn't work with just two players or whatever the hell else. :)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556107You know, I really wouldn't have guessed. I pegged you for a high magic sort of person. And while my WFRP 1e experience is limited to only a dozen or so sessions, the magic users in that game always felt way underpowered compared to the other careers.
You have me pegged correctly but I like Warhammer's magic for the danger. I love consequesnces like taint/warp/insanity/fatigue/paradox/overchannelling/defiling/preserving or whatever because it allows for magic to be really powerful and nobody complains because it's a whole different resource management game of "do I use a spell or not? Or do I risk overchannelling in exchange for the side effect?" and so on.
Warhammer magic is powerful it's the sanity/chaos downside that is a self limiter and the in world fear/loathing of magic users ie. Dark Sun.
Quote from: Benoist;555943That's because you seem to still have this illusion that this place wants to be "RPGnet... but better!"
This is not the case.
This place is not RPGnet, nor does it want to be. It is an alternative to RPGnet for people who enjoy role playing games and want to talk about actual gaming and games without the Tangency bullshit, the Swinish pretention that RPGs are art meant to explore the depth of whatever the fuck makes you sound cool and intellectual these days, without the Forgist theory bullshit that wants to construe RPGs as things they are not to promote the storywank of bat penis experts, without all the wank of failed authors who should write fucking books instead of fucking up popular RPGs to change them into something they're not.
The RPG Site is NOT an "emotionally safe" environment. It does not have a vocation to catter to your own delusions of what being welcoming means or does not mean. It is not about "one size fits all", "keeping the peace" or any of that Kool Aid you seem addicted to. It does welcome all manners of actual gamers, but after that, your reputation is pretty much left to what you decide to post and not to post.
If you come across as a whiner who can't get over the fact his threads get moved to another forum and keeps on bitching endlessly about it for years to then keep on posting the same stuff in the wrong places over and over again, then so be it. You'll be treated as such.
You will not be able to stay home, brother.
You will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out.
You will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip,
Skip out for beer during commercials,
Because the revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be brought to you by Xerox
In 4 parts without commercial interruptions.
The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon
blowing a bugle and leading a charge by John
Mitchell, General Abrams and Spiro Agnew to eat
hog maws confiscated from a Harlem sanctuary.
The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be brought to you by the
Schaefer Award Theatre and will not star Natalie
Woods and Steve McQueen or Bullwinkle and Julia.
The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal.
The revolution will not get rid of the nubs.
The revolution will not make you look five pounds
thinner, because the revolution will not be televised, Brother.
There will be no pictures of you and Willie May
pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run,
or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance.
NBC will not be able predict the winner at 8:32
or report from 29 districts.
The revolution will not be televised.
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being
run out of Harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
There will be no slow motion or still life of Roy
Wilkens strolling through Watts in a Red, Black and
Green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
For just the proper occasion.
Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville
Junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if Dick finally gets down with
Jane on Search for Tomorrow because Black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
The revolution will not be televised.
There will be no highlights on the eleven o'clock
news and no pictures of hairy armed women
liberationists and Jackie Onassis blowing her nose.
The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb,
Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom
Jones, Johnny Cash, Englebert Humperdink, or the Rare Earth.
The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be right back after a message
bbout a white tornado, white lightning, or white people.
You will not have to worry about a dove in your
bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl.
The revolution will not go better with Coke.
The revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath.
The revolution will put you in the driver's seat.
The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
The revolution will be no re-run brothers;
The revolution will be live.
Quote from: The Traveller;555891Why would he want to give ammunition to rules lawyers so they can run as close to the line as possible, and then run weeping for *vibes* and manufactured outrage when they get justifiably banned for dickery?
It is funny how many of the people who call for this site to have "clear rules" are clearly demanding it so they can skirt the edge of said rules and manipulate them to push their agendas, huh?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;555879It would be a lot more perfect without the stupid whining about story games and this petulant crap. What good does it do to have people come over here thinking this is the oasis of free speech who like story games only to then find out they aren't welcome. Complete bollocks.
I very much doubt any Storygamers will be coming over here from RPG.net looking for "free speech" since storygames, falling under the definition of what the modclique considers fashionable, are a protected subject over there.
And if they really have a problem with discussing their non-roleplaying games in the "other games forum", which they would be welcome to do to their heart's delight, they could always go make some other forum.. maybe some place called "storygames"... oh, wait,
that place already exists.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556087What happened over there is that they promoted Rand to a moderator and now he's banning people for things like starting a sentence on a new line (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634634-Infraction-for-Seneschal-of-the-sun-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) rather than continue it in a more traditional paragraph form.
I think Rand has the right idea. Ban people for bad grammar and soon NO ONE will be able to post there. :D
JG
Quote from: RPGPundit;556120It is funny how many of the people who call for this site to have "clear rules" are clearly demanding it so they can skirt the edge of said rules and manipulate them to push their agendas, huh?
It seems to have worked for them in quite a few other places, unfortunately.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556068Well, then it seems like the fix is an easy one. Rename this forum to "traditional role-playing games", and add a subforum called "storygames"
That way you have an official policy that enables you to move any storygaming talk out of this main forum without coming off as just moving it to be a dick.
It's in the forum description.
The main forum is for discussion of traditional RPGs. The other games forum's for all others.
The only problem with that charactisation is that a few people have problems with what Pundit classes a storygame.
Quote from: KenHR;556097I, too, miss rgfa, though I only lurked there. That was "theory" discussion that actually had a grounding in reality, and those theories were tested by actual play, not the kind of shit Ron and Levi started preaching on BBSs. But our current governor decided that Usenet was a danger to society and basically got it outlawed in NYS when he was AG. I still hate the fucker for that.
I don't strongly disagree with that. But I think that rgfa benefited from having to deal with David Berkman and Theatrix, for example. Even though David was an annoying windbag, I think discussion was better for dealing with him and his ideas. If there was some moderator who said "Theatrix isn't an RPG so it's off topic" and moved his posts out, I think it would have hurt discussion.
The problem with moderation like The Forge and RPGnet is that the place becomes a sounding board for similar points of view. Rather than having to directly deal with people who play (say) D&D, posters can appeal to us-vs-them and make outlandish statements about D&D play.
The same thing can happen here if we try to push away points of view, say, that favor story games or that dislike old-school D&D.
Quote from: CRKrueger;556079When they're not specifically trying to be intellectually dishonest, people know what the difference is, they just don't like the classification. Well, open your own forum then, or call Pundit a useless cocksucker (you have the freedom to do that) and then go talk about your Storygame in the other forum.
Or you know, if you really were that into that type of game, you could go to Story-games.com (http://www.story-games.com/forums/). An AW thread is right on the first forum page with 58 replies. Go for it!
Sure, I've been on story-games.com for years, just like I've been on theRPGsite for years. And in there and here, I regularly point out that its stupid to go on about how your preferred style of game is objectively superior. I think the majority are reasonable people who are fine with other people having different taste in games. However, both there are here, there are some posters who insist on ridiculous claims - like how traditional RPG players are brain-damaged or have broken social skills (there); or how anyone who had problems with AD&D1 never actually played it (here).
Quote from: Spike;555980Actually, Ladybird is objectively wrong as we can freely talk about, in the RPG section of the forum, such games as Eclipse Phase and the aweful Gamma World reboot... both of which involved Bruce Baugh, who is one of the Pundit's nerdfight opponents.
Yup, because these are actual RPGs, however bad.
QuoteLikewise, I've never seen a White Wolf thread removed, despite the Pundit's undying hatred for their creators. Hell, I'm pretty sure Noblis is still an RPG section game... (countdown until Grimgent post in 5....4....)
Right, because again, though I personally think they're awful RPGs, they're still actual RPGs. The idea that I'm just declaring anything I don't personally like to be "non-rpgs" is idiotic.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jhkim;556017I'm registered on both story-games.com and here. I play a fairly wide range of RPGs. I comment sometimes in the Other Games section here, but being shunted off to a lower-traffic side forum does discourage discussion. I don't check the Other Games forum that often, and story games discussions there don't go very far.
It's pretty obvious to me that shunting certain games off into a side forum discourages discussion. Pundit commented about this a while ago when RPGnet folded out D&D and Fantasy D20 into a separate forum, calling it an anti-D&D move.
Indeed I did, and indeed it was; and I'm quite willing to concede the point that my putting storygames-discussion in "Other Games" is an anti-storygames move.
The critical difference of course is that over there, a forum allegedly about RPGs shunted the biggest, most popular RPG of all time into a ghetto. Whereas over here, I've shunted games that aren't actually RPGs into a ghetto.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jhkim;556153However, both there are here, there are some posters who insist on ridiculous claims - like how traditional RPG players are brain-damaged or have broken social skills (there); or how anyone who had problems with AD&D1 never actually played it (here).
or, that there really is no difference between the different forms of games, (which is most of the storygame talk here, IME).
I don't have a problem with Storygames being Storygames and people liking them. I have a problem with people marketing and claiming them to be no different then traditional RPGs. That leads to market leaders like D&D and WFRP being radically altered to this "new way of roleplaying" that is more story metagame or tactical metagame then anything else.
Unfortunately, we're in a post-Edwards world when it comes to RPG theory and you still have people in place in major companies who drank the Kool-Aid and design their games accordingly. Maybe 5e will roll some of that back, who knows.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556156Indeed I did, and indeed it was; and I'm quite willing to concede the point that my putting storygames-discussion in "Other Games" is an anti-storygames move.
The critical difference of course is that over there, a forum allegedly about RPGs shunted the biggest, most popular RPG of all time into a ghetto. Whereas over here, I've shunted games that aren't actually RPGs into a ghetto.
See, that's what I like about you, Pundit, and what makes you better than the RPGnet mods. You're willing to own up to putting them in a ghetto. (Also to those here who claimed that shunting off story games wasn't doing this.)
While I disagree with you on story games, and think you're being stupid about it, at least you are honest and up front about it - and you're willing to tolerate disagreement on this.
I'd prefer it if this war thing were dropped, but I'm willing to live with it, and this remains one of my preferred sites.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556156The critical difference of course is that over there, a forum allegedly about RPGs shunted the biggest, most popular RPG of all time into a ghetto. Whereas over here, I've shunted games that aren't actually RPGs into a ghetto.
RPGPundit
Yeah, but unfortunately with RPG.net most of the flaming and trolling is on the D&D board. EVEN considering Tangency. A quick look at the main tag cloud will make this obvious.
JG
Quote from: jhkim;556169While I disagree with you on story games, and think you're being stupid about it, at least you are honest and up front about it - and you're willing to tolerate disagreement on this.
I don't think I'd have any problem with this if they were tossed into a forum called "Story Games" instead of "Other Games". I don't think "Story Games" belong in a forum with computer games and board games any more than some of them belong in a forum with traditional role-playing games. And in the big scheme of things, I think it would better make the point he's trying to make which is that they are their own sort of game.
Quote from: James Gillen;556194Yeah, but unfortunately with RPG.net most of the flaming and trolling is on the D&D board. EVEN considering Tangency. A quick look at the main tag cloud will make this obvious.
JG
Sad thing is the D20 subforum at TBP is a toxic cesspool made worse by the policy of heavy moderation many times more heavy than the rest of the site. At this point actual discussion is virtually impossible because of that passive aggressive cover your ass mentality on that board.
Quote from: Marleycat;556210Sad thing is the D20 subforum at TBP is a toxic cesspool made worse by the policy of heavy moderation many times more heavy than the rest of the site. At this point actual discussion is virtually impossible because of that passive aggressive cover your ass mentality on that board.
Exactly.
jg
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556068Well, then it seems like the fix is an easy one. Rename this forum to "traditional role-playing games", and add a subforum called "storygames"
That way you have an official policy that enables you to move any storygaming talk out of this main forum without coming off as just moving it to be a dick.
Well, no. You would still need a definition of terms which is something even the hobby and indsutry as a whole hasn't done.
Quote from: The Traveller;556071Banishment in this case bears exactly no consequences. In other words its not banishment. The "backroom forum" is as publicly available as any other forum.
This comes down to wanting storygames to be recognised as RPGs. They aren't. WoW bills itself as an RPG too, but it isn't, in exactly the same way.
Spurious comparison aside, who are you to say that Apocalypse World isn't an rpg?
Quote from: Benoist;556075Precisely so. All the rest is just a smoke screen.
No, it's wanting roleplaying games to be recognised as roleplaying games. Anything else is just personal prejudice. Moving threads to another forum is clearly intended to limit discussion, otherwise why move them at all?
Do we stop discussing Vampire the Masquerade in the rpg forum? As i recall it was the 'storytelling game of personal horror'. What's next?
And stop whining about how easy it is to look in the open forum when you know that isn't the point at all.
Quote from: CRKrueger;556109He is, he just hates that FFG hasn't made an Eldar game yet, or Dark Heresy doesn't work with just two players or whatever the hell else. :)
That's right.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556120It is funny how many of the people who call for this site to have "clear rules" are clearly demanding it so they can skirt the edge of said rules and manipulate them to push their agendas, huh?
RPGPundit
Clear rules, or a clear definition of what constitues an rpg as opposed to any other game?
Anything else is your paranoia.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556122I very much doubt any Storygamers will be coming over here from RPG.net looking for "free speech" since storygames, falling under the definition of what the modclique considers fashionable, are a protected subject over there.
And if they really have a problem with discussing their non-roleplaying games in the "other games forum", which they would be welcome to do to their heart's delight, they could always go make some other forum.. maybe some place called "storygames"... oh, wait, that place already exists.
RPGPundit
So what exactly are you trying to achieve with your wacky little banner ad?
Quote from: One Horse Town;556150It's in the forum description.
The main forum is for discussion of traditional RPGs. The other games forum's for all others.
The only problem with that charactisation is that a few people have problems with what Pundit classes a storygame.
So what consitutes a traditional rpg? DnD? How about Marvel Heroic Roleplaying? Kaotic? Savage Worlds? Legends of the Wulin? FATE? WFRP3e?
This limitation is so pointless and self defeating.
Quote from: Novastar;556101WH40k RPG is one of the few areas where I and Pundit disagree, actually. He see's it as "misery tourism", where as I enjoy the "grim darkness". :p ;)
While trudging through dank dungeons to steal other people's relics and slaughter things is happy times at the Waltons homestead. :D
Quote from: John Morrow;556204I don't think I'd have any problem with this if they were tossed into a forum called "Story Games" instead of "Other Games". I don't think "Story Games" belong in a forum with computer games and board games any more than some of them belong in a forum with traditional role-playing games. And in the big scheme of things, I think it would better make the point he's trying to make which is that they are their own sort of game.
I'm not interested in making a sub-board here for CCGs, or computer games, or even war games (which I actually even play and everything), so why would I make a sub-board for storygames? All of those have in common the fact that they have some historical or mechanical relationship with RPGs in some form or another, but are not actually RPGs. I would think that it very much makes the statement that "storygames are their own sort of game" when they're put into the "OTHER games" forum along with computer games, MMORPGS, CCGs and wargames.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556275This limitation is so pointless and self defeating.
Much like your whole line of argument.
It's his basement. It's his rules. Arguing with the site owner about what should or shouldn't be allowed on his own site is a waste of breath.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556273So what exactly are you trying to achieve with your wacky little banner ad?
Oh I dunno, to bring in regular Roleplayers who are pissed off about the heavy-handed moderation and the favoritism shown to the tangency fashionistas and the storygame-Swine over at rpg.net?
And anyways, I'll note its not "my" banner ad. It was a members-initiative, I didn't think it up, I didn't plan it, I'm not paying for it. Its all being done by the people who support and care about the existence of this site, and as such approve of the work I've done here.
Maybe that's what's pissing you off so much?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Black Vulmea;556278Much like your whole line of argument.
It's his basement. It's his rules. Arguing with the site owner about what should or shouldn't be allowed on his own site is a waste of breath.
Then he should have no problem defining those rules.
Tell us what constitutes an rpg as accepted by the forum. Simple.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556286Then he should have no problem defining those rules.
That's nothing but a bullet train to arguing about edge cases
ad infinitum ad nauseum.
But hey, keep stamping your widdle footie if it makes you feel better.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556286whine whine whine whine whine
:boohoo:
Quote from: Black Vulmea;556290That's nothing but a bullet train to arguing about edge cases ad infinitum ad nauseum.
But hey, keep stamping your widdle footie if it makes you feel better.
No, it's asking the one peson in the entire multiverse that has a problem with people discussing games that he personally doesn't like to define his terms. Why should that be a problem, why should there be edge cases, isn't this black and white? There are roleplaying games (hurrah!) and then there are 'story' games (boo hiss!). Simples.
How on earth is Apocalypse World, regardless of its quality,
not an rpg? Let's have an answer, and not the ad hom passive aggressive crap for once.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;556278Much like your whole line of argument.
It's his basement. It's his rules. Arguing with the site owner about what should or shouldn't be allowed on his own site is a waste of breath.
That's not how free speech works my lad.
It's my breath, not yours.
Where is the rule defining story games?
Quote from: RPGPundit;556279Oh I dunno, to bring in regular Roleplayers who are pissed off about the heavy-handed moderation and the favoritism shown to the tangency fashionistas and the storygame-Swine over at rpg.net?
And anyways, I'll note its not "my" banner ad. It was a members-initiative, I didn't think it up, I didn't plan it, I'm not paying for it. Its all being done by the people who support and care about the existence of this site, and as such approve of the work I've done here.
Maybe that's what's pissing you off so much?
RPGPundit
Plenty of regular roleplayers want to discuss not just 'regular' roleplaying games but what you regard as story games.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556286Then he should have no problem defining those rules.
Tell us what constitutes an rpg as accepted by the forum. Simple.
He has done so numerous times in many threads. You're just being a bitch.
And no, I'm not going to search for them. Look it up for yourself, instead of wasting everyone's time whining like a 10 year old wanting candy.
Ghost Whistler, what does your little temper tantrum have to do with what this thread was originally about?
Quote from: danbuter;556322He has done so numerous times in many threads. You're just being a bitch.
And no, I'm not going to search for them. Look it up for yourself, instead of wasting everyone's time whining like a 10 year old wanting candy.
No he hasn't.
If you don't like what I write then don't fucking read it. Simples. Don't gove me this passive aggressive shit.
Quote from: jeff37923;556326Ghost Whistler, what does your little temper tantrum have to do with what this thread was originally about?
Is this a serious question or another cheap shot made by people that claim they want an open forum, but only if people are willing to post what they want to hear.
If you want to ask the question seriously then do so without the abuse.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556307Plenty of regular roleplayers want to discuss not just 'regular' roleplaying games but what you regard as story games.
and they can, whenever they want to. Life is beautiful, no?
Quote from: CRKrueger;556332and they can, whenever they want to. Life is beautiful, no?
Just not wherever.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556277I'm not interested in making a sub-board here for CCGs, or computer games, or even war games (which I actually even play and everything), so why would I make a sub-board for storygames? All of those have in common the fact that they have some historical or mechanical relationship with RPGs in some form or another, but are not actually RPGs.
At the extremes, I agree the two are quite different, but there are games that attempt to blend the two, just as D&D 4e tried to blend elements from MMORPGs into a role-playing game. Perhaps you should be moving D&D 4e discussions into Other Games, then, too?
Quote from: Benoist;556296:boohoo:
Wow, what a mess. But as everyone knows whine is always better with a bit of cheese. Talk about pissing in the wind. Ghost Whistler you're taking the cake in this thread.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556306That's not how free speech works my lad.
No, shit-for-brains, it's not.
It's Pundit's private website; you have exactly as much free speech as he allows, and not an iota more.
You wanna stand on a corner and rant about story games, you have the freedom to do so. But you have no right to demand that the
Washington Post give you column inches to rant about it, nor do you have the right to tell the site's owner when or where or how you should be allowed to discuss it.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556336Just not wherever.
I can't take a shit wherever i want to. Awful isn't it?
Did the UK pass some Right-Wing law or something? I often wonder if GW's cycles are tied to anything over there.
Quote from: One Horse Town;556345I can't take a shit wherever i want to.
You limeys just don't get FREEDOM.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;556344No, shit-for-brains, it's not.
It's Pundit's private website; you have exactly as much free speech as he allows, and not an iota more.
You wanna stand on a corner and rant about story games, you have the freedom to do so. But you have no right to demand that the Washington Post give you column inches to rant about it, nor do you have the right to tell the site's owner when or where or how you should be allowed to discuss it.
If you actually believe that you really are ignorant.
Quote from: One Horse Town;556345I can't take a shit wherever i want to. Awful isn't it?
So this is really a website where anyone that you don't like gets insulted and their opinions traduced. I know another place like that...
Quote from: CRKrueger;556346Did the UK pass some Right-Wing law or something? I often wonder if GW's cycles are tied to anything over there.
I'm getting a little tired of the abuse.
Use the fucking multiquote, please.
Quote from: CRKrueger;556163or, that there really is no difference between the different forms of games, (which is most of the storygame talk here, IME).
Of course there's a difference. There's a huge fucking difference; I'd put the dividing line at "does the system cope if you try to do something outside the rules", personally. If the system falls over, it's definitely a storygame. They're both
games, and they can both feature
role playing, but they aren't the same.
You can play an RPG as a storygame - I had a very enjoyable Feng Shui storysession earlier this year - but not vice versa.
My issue isn't with there being a distinction, because there is one (Have I repeated that enough yet?). I simply don't agree with where the dividing line is drawn, even after reading quite a lot of Pundit's writing. Of the games I've played that would fall on the story side here, I can agree with
Remember Tomorrow and
In A Wicked Age (
RT fell apart two scenes in, and while I enjoyed
IAWA the stake setting ruined the game's pacing, right at the peak of each scene),
Dread (Jenga) would be on the line (I'd say RPG, but I could see why people would disagree), and
3:16 solidly in the RPG category. I quite enjoyed the 3:16 thread. We had a discussion, ran out of things to say and the thread ended.
Quote from: RPGPundit;555719"A roleplaying game is a game where you take on the persona of a detailed imaginary character meant to have a life of his/her own, in an emulated world intended to have a life of its own"
This is a good definition. I like it. It's clear. I'd happily go with it. It depends on having a good table (And GM in particular), but I'd rather assume every gamer is there to have a good game than otherwise.
And just so nobody is in any doubt, I also don't see why Ron Edward and his toxic rhetoric should still be allowed to dominate gaming discussion. Some of the points he touched on were good ones - GNS theory, discussion of player styles and game expectations, for example - are good
additions to understanding of why some tables work and some don't; they won't solve your problem themselves, but they might help you in solving them, even if they just mean talking to the players about the game. The better recent writers have either absorbed the concepts into their game design toolbox - Stolze, Wick - or understood them and worked with them anyway, without needing to explicitly state them - Stafford, Laws (To give just two examples from my shelf). Edwards and his one-true-wayism may not have done the most damage to critical thinking about RPG's, maybe there was someone worse, but he's certainly up there.
And now I shall get back to writing up my SWN sector.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556352So this is really a website where anyone that you don't like gets insulted and their opinions traduced.
You're new here, aren't you?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556354I'm getting a little tired of the abuse.
Are these your toys, sir? They appear to have fallen out of your pram at speed.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556352So this is really a website where anyone that you don't like gets insulted and their opinions traduced. I know another place like that...
I neither insulted you, nor your opinions. I merely pointed out where your opinion falls down.
Accept it. Pundit isn't going to change things because you want him to. Sure, raise a holler like you are now - knock yourself out, but that doesn't change that simple fact.
Quote from: Ladybird;556364Are these your toys, sir? They appear to have fallen out of your pram at speed.
I'm asking you to knock the abuse off, it isn't required, and it isn't welcome. Spare me the holier than thou attitude. This crap is pulled everytime someone makes a comment that you people don't like: you can't address it, you can't respond appropriately. You cry foul and throw abuse. Asking for a definition of terms in respect of what constitutes an rpg is perfectly reasonable, and not once has one been provided. Why isn't there a sticky on the rpg forum, for instance, and don't give me this 'it's pundit's site, he can do what he likes' because that isn't an answer, it's an excuse. I am not asking people to like play or even discuss 'story' games, I am asking people to respect those that do. I am telling you that shuffling threads around and provoking this silly 'pundit vs swine' paranoia is a complete waste of everyone's time, not least of all your/his own. What does it achieve? Has the rpg community taken any notice of this bizarre crusade? Do people stop playing these games? All you are doing is hurting this website by making it look petulant and childish. If you want people to see it as one man's personal playground then expect to see very few visitors as a result of this banner ad, which is a waste of time and money.
Discussion of story games is important not for the simple minded reasons thrown in my face, but because any attempt at innovation in our hobby, successful or otherwise, is a good thing. Anyone that wants to try a new idea or a new approach should be able to discuss it. The minute you shuffle everything to a lower traffic explicitly non-rpg forum you traduce it, you send out a message that it's not worthy of discussion. That is stupid, limiting and self defeating, and anyone that advocates those as qualities representative of my hobby isn't someone I would ever welcome at my table.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556373I'm asking you to knock the abuse off, it isn't required, and it isn't welcome. Spare me the holier than thou attitude.
This from the dude who calls everyone a twat.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556373The minute you shuffle everything to a lower traffic explicitly non-rpg forum you traduce it, you send out a message that it's not worthy of discussion.
What the christ, and as a Buddhist I don't say that lightly, I have a bigass thread going on right now about exploring some unusual concepts in RPGs that hasn't been shuffled anywhere. If you want to call a
different game entirely an
innovative RPG, there's no hope for you. And you're not shy about dishing out the abuse when it suits you either.
Of course it's a storygame.
Vincent Baker.
Lumpley.
Come on.
Bad trees produce bad fruit.
Quote from: The Traveller;556376What the christ, and as a Buddhist I don't say that lightly, I have a bigass thread going on right now about exploring some unusual concepts in RPGs that hasn't been shuffled anywhere.
Good, that's precisely the point: I don't want threads shuffled anywhere unless it is absolutely obvious (discussing Magic the Gathering belongs in the other games forum quite clearly).
I like "traduce". It's a good word. It's an attitude I hate.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556373I'm asking you to knock the abuse off, it isn't required, and it isn't welcome. Spare me the holier than thou attitude.
No.
See, this is the problem with you. Every time something isn't exactly what you want, you start a thread and bitch and whine about it. You never actually try to solve your own problems. You never learn from your mistakes. You just rush in and do the same thing, over and over again, expecting that this time the world will have magically rearranged itself to suit you.
If you want change, fine. Be your damn change. Contact FFG. Apply to playtest their games. Don't buy the AAA multiplayer shooters when you know you hate AAA games and multiplayer shooters. If you want to discuss innovations in RPG's, fine. Do so. But this isn't the site for aimless theorising and whining. Refine your ideas, prove they make games better
at the table, than bring it back here and people will listen.
I actually agree that the magical storygame/rpg line is going to drive some people away from this forum, who may see the banner ad and want to post somewhere other than RPGnet. Fine. They aren't the right people for here. They'll be happier posting elsewhere.
This site might not be perfect, but there are many worse.
Quote from: 1989;556380Of course it's a storygame.
Vincent Baker.
Lumpley.
Come on.
Bad trees produce bad fruit.
They're just games, they don't bite. If you don't like them don't play them. If you don't want to discuss them and you want this to be a place free from those discussions then ignore the people that do choose to do so. Simples.
I'm getting tired of the abuse too. You fuckers need to pick up the pace.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556354I'm getting a little tired of the abuse.
Then shut the fuck up and stop being a whiny cunt. You go over this crap whenever something gets moved, and now you're pissed because Pundit. Just go rub a few out, punch a chav, do whatever.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556388They're just games, they don't bite. If you don't like them don't play them. If you don't want to discuss them and you want this to be a place free from those discussions then ignore the people that do choose to do so. Simples.
Storygames discussion in the other games forum, please.
I don't want my RPG board cluttered with storygame discussion.
Quote from: Ladybird;556387See, this is the problem with you. Every time something isn't exactly what you want, you start a thread and bitch and whine about it. You never actually try to solve your own problems. You never learn from your mistakes. You just rush in and do the same thing, over and over again, expecting that this time the world will have magically rearranged itself to suit you.
If you want change, fine. Be your damn change.Contact FFG. Apply to playtest their games. Don't buy the AAA multiplayer shooters when you know you hate AAA games and multiplayer shooters. If you want to discuss innovations in RPG's, fine. Do so. But this isn't the site for aimless theorising and whining. Refine your ideas, prove they make games better at the table, than bring it back here and people will listen.
I actually agree that the magical storygame/rpg line is going to drive some people away from this forum, who may see the banner ad and want to post somewhere other than RPGnet. Fine. They aren't the right people for here. They'll be happier posting elsewhere.
This site might not be perfect, but there are many worse.
This is just pure melodrama. You want to talk about those other things? Fine, let's go:
You're accusing me of not trying to solve my own 'problems' (bizarre). This is a website, not AA, get a sense of perspective.
And if posting that shuffling threads around is stupid isn't trying to address a problem (certainly one I can't solve either since I don't have the power to moderate this site) then what exactly is?
Criticising FFG's utterly batshit stupid to charge people to proofread their game (they don't want playtesters as you'd know if you'd looked into the issue: Only War has already
been playtested) is addressing the problem. I've already posted before that I have contacted FFG and told them to get their act together re: playtesting, proofreading, schedule, etc. Short of buying their entire business out and taking over the license there isn't much more any of us can do, me included, as you full well know. I don't want to playtest OW: I don't have access to a printer or a laptop; pdf's - as I've said many times (you people need to read what you're criticisng for a start) - are no use to me.
Moaning that I don't like most video games? Oh dear! Get over yourself.
Noone has been aimlessly theorising or whining and labelling the opinions of others as such just because you don't understand or didn't read or just don't agree with them is feeble.
Quote from: 1989;556391Storygames discussion in the other games forum, please.
I don't want my RPG board cluttered with storygame discussion.
Then define what constitutes a storygame because if you can't do that, how are people going to know where to post what when the prevailing wisdom lebels these games as such.
I don't particularly want my board cluttered with whining about the latest DnD edition, but I don't spend my time bitching about it. I know what the thread is about and so I don't read it. Again. Simples.
As you say, simples (http://www.story-games.com/forums/).
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he see the ghosts.
You're really upset that Ream tossed out his own cash for the ad aren't you?
You're gonna cry about this for god knows how long, and Pundit's not going to change a thing, and people will still come here because it's better than purple and you're going to feel even more angry and powerless then you do now.
Why don't you crusade for one of life's actual injustices?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556393And if posting that shuffling threads around is stupid isn't trying to address a problem (certainly one I can't solve either since I don't have the power to moderate this site) then what exactly is?
You've seen the rules. You've seen the posts and you've been on this site long enough to know that our host is inflexible in his views. Don't like that? Well, you can try discussing it with him calmly and rationally. Or you can post things according to his forum division. Or you can post them on another internet site..
Quote(they don't want playtesters as you'd know if you'd looked into the issue: Only War has already been playtested)
If they don't want playtesters, who exactly playtested it then? Do you think the author made all those names up? They don't want playtesters now because they already had them.
QuoteI've already posted before that I have contacted FFG and told them to get their act together re: playtesting, proofreading, schedule, etc. Short of buying their entire business out and taking over the license there isn't much more any of us can do, me included, as you full well know.
You could have tried contacting them to ask how to apply for playtesting positions. Yeah, it's too late for Only War, but that's your fault for not contacting them this time last year. Their schedule should be pretty obvious to anyone by now; the next 40K game, if there is one, is probably in development now.
Telling them to "get their act together"? Yes, calm and reasonable language like that will certainly make them carefully consider your requests.
And if their products don't meet your standards, why do you keep buying them?
QuoteI don't have access to a printer or a laptop; pdf's - as I've said many times (you people need to read what you're criticisng for a start) - are no use to me.
Oh noes. Quick, hold the world still until GW catches up!
QuoteMoaning that I don't like most video games? Oh dear! Get over yourself.
Hey, I don't like most AAA video games either! Only my solution is to just not buy them, so I'm out neither ten hours nor forty pounds. Radical idea, I know.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556396Then define what constitutes a storygame because if you can't do that, how are people going to know where to post what when the prevailing wisdom lebels these games as such.
Vincent Baker.
Quote from: CRKrueger;556390Then shut the fuck up and stop being a whiny cunt. You go over this crap whenever something gets moved, and now you're pissed because Pundit. Just go rub a few out, punch a chav, do whatever.
The RPGSite is like Australia: Where it's manly to call another man a "cunt."
JG
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556307Plenty of regular roleplayers want to discuss not just 'regular' roleplaying games but what you regard as story games.
No, "regular" doesn't describe the people, it describes the game. When I'm saying "regular" I'm not just being folksy or something, I'm using the term as in "the regularity of games that fall within the Landmarks of what defines an RPG".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556336Just not wherever.
No, obviously. You can't post porn on the Help forum. You can't post a political diatribe on the Gameplay and Design forum.
You can't make an off-topic post, in other words. And that includes making posts about Monopoly, Hungry Hungry Hippos, My Life With Master, Parchesi/Sorry, Poison'd, RISK, and all other non-roleplaying games in the main RPG forum.
Oh, and since you brought up the subject of off-topic discussion; your sig and user title are an attempt to bring a political message, essentially an off-topic diatribe, to all forums. Remove them. This is your only warning.
RPGPundit
Quote from: John Morrow;556338At the extremes, I agree the two are quite different, but there are games that attempt to blend the two, just as D&D 4e tried to blend elements from MMORPGs into a role-playing game. Perhaps you should be moving D&D 4e discussions into Other Games, then, too?
I had given that some consideration back when 4e came up, but after spending time looking at the actual rules, my judgment was that the core of the game was fundamentally an RPG, albeit one that had been rendered near-useless by trying to mingle it with utterly failed concepts from Swine GNS Theory.
RPGPundit
I like 4e and I'm kind of sorry that didn't happen. The drama would have been legendary. It's not too late.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556373I'm asking you to knock the abuse off, it isn't required, and it isn't welcome. Spare me the holier than thou attitude. This crap is pulled everytime someone makes a comment that you people don't like: you can't address it, you can't respond appropriately. You cry foul and throw abuse. Asking for a definition of terms in respect of what constitutes an rpg is perfectly reasonable, and not once has one been provided. Why isn't there a sticky on the rpg forum, for instance, and don't give me this 'it's pundit's site, he can do what he likes' because that isn't an answer, it's an excuse. I am not asking people to like play or even discuss 'story' games, I am asking people to respect those that do. I am telling you that shuffling threads around and provoking this silly 'pundit vs swine' paranoia is a complete waste of everyone's time, not least of all your/his own. What does it achieve? Has the rpg community taken any notice of this bizarre crusade?
Yes. That's what bothers you. People pay attention to me. They paid enough attention to me that it helped to destroy the legitimacy of the whole Theory movement.
QuoteDo people stop playing these games?
Not just that! People who would have ended up playing these games out of being manipulated into it have now been freed from ever having to, thanks to me. And that really pisses you off.
QuoteAll you are doing is hurting this website by making it look petulant and childish. If you want people to see it as one man's personal playground then expect to see very few visitors as a result of this banner ad, which is a waste of time and money.
You and your Swine ilk have been predicting the failure of everything I've attempted for the last 6 years now, and EVERY FUCKING TIME YOU'VE BEEN WRONG.
I just keep getting more relevant, better known, and more successful; and you keep losing.
TheRPGsite has continued to consistently grow and has just now grown to the point we were forced to expand the number of threads-per-page because they were spilling off the first page.
So suck it, bitch.
QuoteDiscussion of story games is important not for the simple minded reasons thrown in my face, but because any attempt at innovation in our hobby, successful or otherwise, is a good thing.
No. The attempt to redefine the hobby into oblivion, to make it into something it absolutely ISN'T in order to satisfy the lusts for power of a tiny group of self-styled intelligentsia is NOT a good thing.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556382Good, that's precisely the point: I don't want threads shuffled anywhere unless it is absolutely obvious (discussing Magic the Gathering belongs in the other games forum quite clearly).
So if some idiot went around claiming that CCGs were the real way to do Roleplaying, and that roleplaying games were always meant to be CCGs but people were just too brain damaged to understand that, and started a movement of people who played CCGs but called them "roleplaying games', you would expect those threads about those CCGs to be moved to some other subforum, rather than end up taking over the forum of actual RPGs, wouldn't you?
Well, YOU probably wouldn't.
Actually, you probably would, but can't bring yourself to say it because I just said the opposite.
RPGPundit
I still have no idea what this has to do with the actual topic but it sure is entertaining.:)
Quote from: Marleycat;556450I still have no idea what this has to do with the actual topic but it sure is entertaining.:)
It's totally related. The War against Desborough made the excesses of RPGnet quite obvious to a new segment of its users who had not previously broken off from the place, they checked out the RPG Site and found it's actually not the hellhole some people portray it as on other sites.
Discussion ensues about bringing more visibility to the site, banner included. This is what pisses off Ghost Whistler, fundamentally, so he disrupts the thread with his bullshit, either to use it as a platform to create a shitstorm involving the new users of the site, or to drive them away by making us look bad.
Either way, that's sabotage, pure and simple, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556438"the regularity of games that fall within the Landmarks of what defines an RPG".
RPGPundit
Which means what?
Quote from: RPGPundit;556440No, obviously. You can't post porn on the Help forum.
Oh, and since you brought up the subject of off-topic discussion; your sig and user title are an attempt to bring a political message, essentially an off-topic diatribe, to all forums. Remove them. This is your only warning.
RPGPundit
That's not really the same thing now is it.
Any reason you're asking me to change my details months after I edited them? If the rules prohibit politically charged signatures and the like that's entirely fine, but I don't think I'm the only one with a political title and/or sig am i?
Quote from: RPGPundit;556446Yes. That's what bothers you. People pay attention to me.
You can do better than this.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556448So if some idiot went around claiming that CCGs were the real way to do Roleplaying,
RPGPundit
They'd be pretty stupid. There really isn't an equivalence.
Quote from: Marleycat;556450I still have no idea what this has to do with the actual topic but it sure is entertaining.:)
Conversation evolves.
Quote from: Benoist;556452It's totally related. The War against Desborough made the excesses of RPGnet quite obvious to a new segment of its users who had not previously broken off from the place, they checked out the RPG Site and found it's actually not the hellhole some people portray it as on other sites.
Discussion ensues about bringing more visibility to the site, banner included. This is what pisses off Ghost Whistler, fundamentally, so he disrupts the thread with his bullshit, either to use it as a platform to create a shitstorm involving the new users of the site, or to drive them away by making us look bad.
Either way, that's sabotage, pure and simple, as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, a site i've been a member of for several years I now want to make look bad, inexplicably.
Why on earth would you think I don't want new users here? What possible sane reason could compel you to think that?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556458Yes, a site i've been a member of for several years I now want to make look bad, inexplicably.
Why on earth would you think I don't want new users here? What possible sane reason could compel you to think that?
It's not like your bitching and whining is anything new to any regular here. You have been doing this for years. This is just your latest attempt at arguing your bullshit and create as much drama as possible in the process.
Quote from: Benoist;556462It's not like your bitching and whining is anything new to any regular here. You have been doing this for years. This is just your latest attempt at arguing your bullshit and create as much drama as possible in the process.
Indeed. I have been entirely consistent in my criticism of this story vs rpg nonsense - and it is nonsense. It wastes everyone's time, including the pundit who doesn't need to piss about shuffling posts around. This site will not suffer for it. In fact I have been not just consistent but quite moderate. Not once have I shown him the kind of silly disrespect you've shown here with abuse and passive aggressive schoolgirl histrionics when plenty of other people have done.
While there are undoubtedly many that agree with his views, which is perfectly fine, there are also plenty, out there, that think he's full of shit. So what action is going to harm this site more: taking a more relaxed view toward certain types of rpg, or continuing a crusade that noone else cares about while posting a banner ad on the one site guaranteed to flip out about it. What sort of new players do you want? People that are pissed off about this provocation and want to challenge him and us on it, or people that want to discuss games and ideas about games?
Now you can continue your paranoid little crusade against me and believe that I genuinely want this site to fail or to turn away new players, or that I'm secretly John Q Storygamer in disguise, or you can wake up to yourself.
If you even want to have a Story game forum, then at least have the common sense to define your terms as I have said abvout five million times, and yet you can't even do that. So what do you think a newbie to this site is going to think if he wants to post about Apocalypse World or whatever. There's no sticky warning him against his crime. End result he gets pissed off and messed about and for what?
I'm more amused at the invocation of Freedom of Speech, on a privately-owned forum hosted in a foreign country.
That it's being invoked by a Brit, who's Free Speech is more seriously curtailed than mine as an American, is again, highly amusing.
The thing is, you know your dance here is total bullshit designed to create as much drama as possible to disrupt the site and turn people against the Pundit's policy and/or away from this place, otherwise you would not have deleted that post my previous answer to you was quoting. You're not very good at this GW, are you?
Quote from: Benoist;556471The thing is, you know your dance here is total bullshit designed to create as much drama as possible to disrupt the site and turn people against the Pundit's policy and/or away from this place, otherwise you would not have deleted that post my previous answer to you was quoting. You're not very good at this GW, are you?
No, Ghostwhistler is correct - he has been consistant on this issue. Just as Ladybird is correct in that he's also very consistant in finding stuff to dislike and then attempt to beat-up on, on the internet.
I mean, are you seriously gonna read a thread about a console game started by GW? No. You know what it's going to say before it starts.
Unfortunately, GW also has a bit of a persecution complex - normally because when people see he's whining about something
else,
again, they get fed up with it and say nasty things. I've done it and i'm not proud of it.
In fact, i have some sympathy for GW. If only he was less shrill and whiny and could actually argue his way out of a paper-bag, he might just have a point.
Purposeful site disruption is wide of the mark.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556373I'm asking you to knock the abuse off, it isn't required, and it isn't welcome. Spare me the holier than thou attitude. This crap is pulled everytime someone makes a comment that you people don't like: you can't address it, you can't respond appropriately. You cry foul and throw abuse. Asking for a definition of terms in respect of what constitutes an rpg is perfectly reasonable, and not once has one been provided. Why isn't there a sticky on the rpg forum, for instance, and don't give me this 'it's pundit's site, he can do what he likes' because that isn't an answer, it's an excuse. I am not asking people to like play or even discuss 'story' games, I am asking people to respect those that do. I am telling you that shuffling threads around and provoking this silly 'pundit vs swine' paranoia is a complete waste of everyone's time, not least of all your/his own. What does it achieve? Has the rpg community taken any notice of this bizarre crusade? Do people stop playing these games? All you are doing is hurting this website by making it look petulant and childish. If you want people to see it as one man's personal playground then expect to see very few visitors as a result of this banner ad, which is a waste of time and money.
Discussion of story games is important not for the simple minded reasons thrown in my face, but because any attempt at innovation in our hobby, successful or otherwise, is a good thing. Anyone that wants to try a new idea or a new approach should be able to discuss it. The minute you shuffle everything to a lower traffic explicitly non-rpg forum you traduce it, you send out a message that it's not worthy of discussion. That is stupid, limiting and self defeating, and anyone that advocates those as qualities representative of my hobby isn't someone I would ever welcome at my table.
(Creaks under the quote's weight)
Well, I guess that on RPG.net they would have banned you for "lack of respect for paragraph's breaks". Isn't this site wonderful? :)
Quote from: One Horse Town;556472again
Purposeful site disruption is wide of the mark.
Speaking of which, can we get back to the whole idea of moving 4e to other games? I fully support it, because after it happens I'd like to argue against it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;556472Purposeful site disruption is wide of the mark.
I used to think the way you do but I am starting to have serious doubts about it. Whining and bitching endlessly, fine. Being outrageously insulting and then pretending people are just mean to you, fine. Posting storygames threads in the wrong forum, fine at first, less fine when I start suspecting it's done on purpose as a "fuck you" to the Pundit to start a new drama about it each time the thread gets moved. Using threads like this one to rehash the whole thing and use it as a platform to go on your private war against the Pundit, I'm starting to have trouble finding excuses for the whiner.
Don't get me wrong: it's certainly possible for him to be so completely oblivious that he doesn't realize what he's actually doing. I'm starting to have problems with that explanation, though. Occam's Razor et al.
Quote from: benoist;556452it's totally related. The war against desborough made the excesses of rpgnet quite obvious to a new segment of its users who had not previously broken off from the place, they checked out the rpg site and found it's actually not the hellhole some people portray it as on other sites.
.
you take that back!!!!!!
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556454Which means what?
That's not really the same thing now is it.
Oh yes it is. Let me kill two birds with one stone: the "landmarks" mean "things you can't remove without X not being X anymore" (in this case, without RPGs not being RPGs anymore). So to give you an example, if you were on a chess forum, and someone was insisting that the right way to play chess was for the goal to be to capture all the pawns, would that still be chess?
..now what if they told you the "goal" was really and had really always been to make pretty patterns with the pieces on the board?
That's how radically different Storygames are from RPGs. They change the fundamental goal of the RPG into "Making a story", which it never was. They change the fundamental definition of what makes an RPG an RPG, and therefore are irregular, they go beyond the landmarks.
QuoteAny reason you're asking me to change my details months after I edited them? If the rules prohibit politically charged signatures and the like that's entirely fine, but I don't think I'm the only one with a political title and/or sig am i?
Because you brought up the whole issue of off-topic posting and it made me notice your off-topic details. If anyone else has User details advocating that all the members of a major mainstream UK political party should be put to death, I'll get right on it as far as making them stop too.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556468continuing a crusade that noone else cares about
Enough people cared about it to create this site, and for me to get money, fame, free RPG swag, and a consultancy at WoTC.
I know its driving you crazy, but just repeating over and over again that no one cares about my views won't make it true; in fact, it proves its false because you feel like you have to keep repeating it. It proves even you care about my views.
QuoteNow you can continue your paranoid little crusade against me and believe that I genuinely want this site to fail
You do.
Quoteor to turn away new players,
You do.
Quoteor that I'm secretly John Q Storygamer in disguise,
You're not in disguise.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;556452It's totally related. The War against Desborough made the excesses of RPGnet quite obvious to a new segment of its users who had not previously broken off from the place, they checked out the RPG Site and found it's actually not the hellhole some people portray it as on other sites.
Discussion ensues about bringing more visibility to the site, banner included. This is what pisses off Ghost Whistler, fundamentally, so he disrupts the thread with his bullshit, either to use it as a platform to create a shitstorm involving the new users of the site, or to drive them away by making us look bad.
Either way, that's sabotage, pure and simple, as far as I'm concerned.
I see. So he's pissed about the banner? How stupid and bitter.
Well, looks like it's Lord of the Flies time.
Quote from: One Horse Town;556490Well, looks like it's Lord of the Flies time.
oooh..... does that mean I get yummy long-pig BBQ?
Who fucking broke the conch shell again, god dammit?
And, really, this temper tantrum by Ghost Whistler is a good example of why storygames were placed in Other Games in the first place. So that discussion of the fucking things would not cause infantile pieces of shit to disrupt otherwise interesting conversations with unrelated crap.
Thanks, GW. You have shown why this board's policy is a good one.
Quote from: Spike;556510oooh..... does that mean I get yummy long-pig BBQ?
You and I remember
Lord of the Flies very differently.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556393This is just pure melodrama.
I can't believe you wrote that about someone else.
Quote from: James Gillen;556435The RPGSite is like Australia: Where it's manly to call another man a "cunt."
JG
He's from the UK. They do that there.
Quote from: Benoist;556478I used to think the way you do but I am starting to have serious doubts about it. Whining and bitching endlessly, fine. Being outrageously insulting and then pretending people are just mean to you, fine. Posting storygames threads in the wrong forum, fine at first, less fine when I start suspecting it's done on purpose as a "fuck you" to the Pundit to start a new drama about it each time the thread gets moved. Using threads like this one to rehash the whole thing and use it as a platform to go on your private war against the Pundit, I'm starting to have trouble finding excuses for the whiner.
For a moderator to toss out the possibility of an accusation of site disruption is a serious thing. Frankly this smacks of simply defining things you don't like as "site disruption", and that is total bullshit.
Ben, I love you as a poster, but you easily are the moderator with the most interventionist style. That I don't love so much. I believe that the site is better when self-regulated. People are dealing with GW just fine without the seeming case being made for "site disruption". That should be reserved for the truly egregious cases of such abuse in my opinion. Otherwise we run the risk of moderation based on popularity. And we've all seen where that leads to...
-TGA
Quote from: Marleycat;556488
Olivia Wilde - Ouch. Now you're hitting below the belt. Literally. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;556577He's from the UK. They do that there.
It's like saying hello.
Quote from: One Horse Town;556583It's like saying hello.
Yeah I know UK culture, I saw all the Guy Ritchie movies.
Quote from: CRKrueger;556580Olivia Wilde - Ouch. Now you're hitting below the belt. Literally. :D
What? You don't like her? I know she is more understated than Chelos or Racquel but her hat rocks.;)
Quote from: Marleycat;556598What? You don't like her? I know she is more understated than Chelos or Racquel but her hat rocks.;)
Like her? She's the hottest and the coolest chick around. :cool:
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;556579For a moderator to toss out the possibility of an accusation of site disruption is a serious thing.
I agree.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;556579Frankly this smacks of simply defining things you don't like as "site disruption", and that is total bullshit.
Not the case.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;556579Ben, I love you as a poster, but you easily are the moderator with the most interventionist style.
I haven't intervened. I voiced my thoughts and doubts about GW's goal here.
I honestly think I sound more interventionist because I am more vocal about my thought process.
I'm cool with it. Different strokes and all.
Quote from: CRKrueger;556603Like her? She's the hottest and the coolest chick around. :cool:
Yeah. Way below the belt on this one. :D
Quote from: Benoist;556606I haven't intervened. I voiced my thoughts and doubts about GW's goal here.
I honestly think I sound more interventionist because I am more vocal about my thought process.
I'm cool with it. Different strokes and all.
Cool. I think we are seeing eye to eye, then.
-TGA
Quote from: Benoist;556607Yeah. Way below the belt on this one. :D
You guys started it with all the "Good, Bad, and The Ugly" and "The Magnificent Seven" avatars. I just wanted to join in on the fun.:D
I can't believe it took me to use the best cowboy avatar ever. He'd have just beat up Blondie, Tuco, and Angel Eyes while they were still eyeballing each other. :rant:
Also, Racquel was way hotter. Just saying...
I'm all for having a storygames ghetto, but the beating up of Ghost Whistler in this thread seems a little bit excessive.
Quote from: Marleycat;556610You guys started it with all the "Good, Bad, and The Ugly" and "The Magnificent Seven" avatars. I just wanted to join in on the fun.:D
that can be the next banner ad--theRPGsite: all games, all the time, and don't forget your hat
/jk
Quote from: danbuter;556613I can't believe it took me to use the best cowboy avatar ever. He'd have just beat up Blondie, Tuco, and Angel Eyes while they were still eyeballing each other. :rant:
Also, Racquel was way hotter. Just saying...
Without a doubt but Oliva is far more understated and the hat is what makes it work. But I do have a couple of Racquel just in case the pure sex kitten mood strikes me.:)
Quote from: danbuter;556613I can't believe it took me to use the best cowboy avatar ever. He'd have just beat up Blondie, Tuco, and Angel Eyes while they were still eyeballing each other. :rant:
No, he would have spent aimless hours hunting and capturing animals in Africa hoping to stumble upon a plot.
Hitari motherfuckers. It will kill you slow.
Quote from: Marleycat;556610You guys started it with all the "Good, Bad, and The Ugly" and "The Magnificent Seven" avatars. I just wanted to join in on the fun.:D
I just switched my avatar to a movie character I liked. Next thing I know, everyone started joining in on the same theme. Did I create a meme, or whatever word the kids are using these days? Do I get a prize?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556628Do I get a prize?
Nope! But thanks anyways! :D
-TGA
I'm loving it. This is so cool. :D
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556628I just switched my avatar to a movie character I liked. Next thing I know, everyone started joining in on the same theme. Did I create a meme, or whatever word the kids are using these days? Do I get a prize?
No, but as Beeber said, don't forget your hat!:)
OK, switched to hat wearing avatar. Although, I dug Bronson with an axe too. :)
Quote from: Drohem;556640OK, switched to hat wearing avatar. Although, I dug Bronson with an axe too. :)
As silly things go, I'm okay with this one. My particular choice expresses how I regard the whole fad.
Quote from: danbuter;556613I can't believe it took me to use the best cowboy avatar ever. He'd have just beat up Blondie, Tuco, and Angel Eyes while they were still eyeballing each othe.
Ahem...
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;556618I'm all for having a storygames ghetto, but the beating up of Ghost Whistler in this thread seems a little bit excessive.
No, not at all.
As a first time poster, I can't agree with the way Ghost Whistler has presented his case, but I can understand what he is saying. I must admit I am confused as to what represents a story game versus a role playing game. Can someone help a new guy out?
Quote from: Drohem;556640OK, switched to hat wearing avatar. Although, I dug Bronson with an axe too. :)
You should find him with his harmonica.
Quote from: Patrick;556658As a first time poster, I can't agree with the way Ghost Whistler has presented his case, but I can understand what he is saying. I must admit I am confused as to what represents a story game versus a role playing game. Can someone help a new guy out?
You either know not what you ask (in which case I'm sorry for what is about to happen)- or you do (in which case, well played)
Either way, welcome to the RPG site.
Quote from: Patrick;556658As a first time poster, I can't agree with the way Ghost Whistler has presented his case, but I can understand what he is saying. I must admit I am confused as to what represents a story game versus a role playing game. Can someone help a new guy out?
Be nice Benoist he is asking honestly just as I did. Besides Val Kilmer is cute and "Doc" Holiday is awesome.
Welcome to RPGsite though it does look like you've lurked here for a long while. :)
Quote from: danbuter;556663You should find him with his harmonica.
Good call.
Quote from: Patrick;556658As a first time poster, I can't agree with the way Ghost Whistler has presented his case, but I can understand what he is saying. I must admit I am confused as to what represents a story game versus a role playing game. Can someone help a new guy out?
See this thread:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7931
Quote from: Marleycat;556685Besides Val Kilmer is cute
Was. Time was not kind to Batman, unfortunately.
Quote from: Peregrin;556693Was. Time was not kind to Batman, unfortunately.
You're a guy please don't presume to tell me or any other woman what to consider what's "cute" or "attractive".:)
Quote from: Spike;556482you take that back!!!!!!
There's a banner ad for ya: "The RPGSite: Not a Complete Hellhole."
JG
Quote from: CRKrueger;556577He's from the UK. They do that there.
There and Australia.
Both of which can claim to be the homeland of AC/DC.
JG
Quote from: John Morrow;556690See this thread:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7931
Someone asked a question and someone on the site addressed it.
And Ghost Whistler seeming to be very obtuse about that fact is In My Opinion why he's catching shit.
JG
Quote from: John Morrow;556690See this thread:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7931
I like that thread, in terms of defining applicability gaming theory to solving gaming problems, and feel it encourages a "don't tell us how to make a good game, show us how to make a good game using your theory" approach. This site solves practical problems. Problems of gaming philosophy are best solved elsewhere... and that's fine.
I genuinely don't feel that it defines "storygames" as such (And I'm in agreement that they are different to RPG's), or the categorisation of threads here; the discussion in the thread is certainly interesting, but doesn't ever hit that point. But like I said earlier, I'm happy enough with the rest of the site's discussion to endure a thread about one game I like having been moved to a different subforum.
Read 'em and weep, the dead-man's hand again.
Quote from: Gib;556683You either know not what you ask (in which case I'm sorry for what is about to happen)- or you do (in which case, well played)
Either way, welcome to the RPG site.
Not trolling, honest! Thank you Mr. Morrow...that thread gives me the info I need.
Quote from: Marleycat;556685Be nice Benoist he is asking honestly just as I did. Besides Val Kilmer is cute and "Doc" Holiday is awesome.
Welcome to RPGsite though it does look like you've lurked here for a long while. :)
I have lurked but enjoyed the debate that goes on here!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556032So a poster cannot discuss a role playing game in the role-playing games forum because you think that it's too much like a storygame?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556036If it's tolerable that they can 'proselytize' in the other forum then they can do so in the rpg forum. Of course this is about marginalising discussion.
Guys, do you realize that if you use the "New Posts" button it will show you all the new threads regardless which board they are, so Pundit's organization of the forum is irrelevant?
Quote from: Gib;556070This forum was founded on and continues to be fueled by just being a dick, and for once, I'm not kidding.
Word.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556087What happened over there is that they promoted Rand to a moderator and now he's banning people for things like starting a sentence on a new line (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634634-Infraction-for-Seneschal-of-the-sun-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) rather than continue it in a more traditional paragraph form.
You can't make this stuff up. Rand never fails to amuse.
Quote from: Patrick;556814I have lurked but enjoyed the debate that goes on here!
Welcome to theRPGSite, Patrick!
-TGA
Quote from: Ladybird;556797I genuinely don't feel that it defines "storygames" as such (And I'm in agreement that they are different to RPG's), or the categorisation of threads here; the discussion in the thread is certainly interesting, but doesn't ever hit that point. But like I said earlier, I'm happy enough with the rest of the site's discussion to endure a thread about one game I like having been moved to a different subforum.
The point of the initial message is that games that deliberately break the landmarks are not really role-playing games and the vast majority of games that break the landmarks yet call themselves role-playing games are storygames. The dead giveaways are that their sales pitch talks about story or "narrative", their mechanics operate at a metagame rather than character perspective (and are often abstract "conflict resolution" mecanics), and are either one-trick-ponies designed to play only one type of scenario, which is so specific that it would be an adventure for a real role-playing game, or they try to define what the "story" will be about up front and even make that part of character creation.
Quote from: John Morrow;556825or they try to define what the "story" will be about up front and even make that part of character creation.
This is a topic that I think deserves it's own thread, I think.
Quote from: Patrick;556814I have lurked but enjoyed the debate that goes on here!
Welcome, Patrick. :)
I wear a cowboy hat now.
Cowboy hats are cool.
:D
Quote from: Al Livingstone;556866I wear a cowboy hat now.
Cowboy hats are cool.
:D
Indeed they are. ;)
Quote from: Benoist;556875Indeed they are. ;)
There are two kinds of people my friend, those with cowboy hats, and those with loaded guns...!
Welcome aboard, Patrick!
Quote from: Black Vulmea;556344It's Pundit's private website; you have exactly as much free speech as he allows, and not an iota more.
You wanna stand on a corner and rant about story games, you have the freedom to do so. But you have no right to demand that the Washington Post give you column inches to rant about it, nor do you have the right to tell the site's owner when or where or how you should be allowed to discuss it.
You know what would be awesome? If the gaggle of social retards who spent multiple pages in this thread talking about how TheRPGSite is about free speech and no agendas (and I'm pretty sure I saw proposed for-pay banner ads that had the words "Free Speech" and "No Agendas" prominently featured at various points of the conversation) would accept that
this is no more or less true of TheRPGSite than it is of RPGnet. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you worthless fucking cuntscabs. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking. What a pack of bitches.
Quote from: 1989;556380Of course [Apocalypse World is] a storygame.
Vincent Baker.
Lumpley.
Come on.
Bad trees produce bad fruit.
At least 1989 has the decency to give the honest answer to the question... not that it's any less of a fucking disgrace for being true. You worthless bottomfeeders should do society a favour and kill yourselves already.
KoOS
Quote from: thedungeondelver;556877There are two kinds of people my friend, those with cowboy hats, and those with loaded guns...!
And those with six demon bags.
Quote from: King of Old School;556885You know what would be awesome? If the gaggle of social retards who spent multiple pages in this thread talking about how TheRPGSite is about free speech and no agendas (and I'm pretty sure I saw proposed for-pay banner ads that had the words "Free Speech" and "No Agendas" prominently featured at various points of the conversation) would accept that this is no more or less true of TheRPGSite than it is of RPGnet. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you worthless fucking cuntscabs. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking. What a pack of bitches.
At least 1989 has the decency to give the honest answer to the question... not that it's any less of a fucking disgrace for being true. You worthless bottomfeeders should do society a favour and kill yourselves already.
KoOS
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
I was portrayed by a nineteenth century character before it was cool...
Hey guys, am I doing it right? :D
The funniest thing about Pundit is, he does drive some people to levels of hatred that are amazing for an online forum. Either that or we have some serious hidden Vince love, or maybe both.
In any case, it's damn entertaining to watch some jackass vent such impotent venomous rage. It's like a 1 minute version of Fatal Attraction, or maybe grade school.
Regading http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7931
Quote from: John Morrow;556825The point of the initial message is that games that deliberately break the landmarks are not really role-playing games and the vast majority of games that break the landmarks yet call themselves role-playing games are storygames. The dead giveaways are that their sales pitch talks about story or "narrative", their mechanics operate at a metagame rather than character perspective (and are often abstract "conflict resolution" mecanics), and are either one-trick-ponies designed to play only one type of scenario, which is so specific that it would be an adventure for a real role-playing game, or they try to define what the "story" will be about up front and even make that part of character creation.
These "dead giveaways" don't actually match up with the landmarks, though. The landmarks - which I largely agree with - basically say that any theory needs to accept that D&D is fun and functional for most of its players. Based on my experience and the studies that I've seen, I agree with this.
However, this doesn't inherently mean that every RPG needs to be like D&D.
Some story games are "one trick ponies" - like A Flower For Mara, or Doubt, or Under My Skin. Given that they are about the same price and page count as published adventures, and generally easy to pick up and play, I don't see any problem with that. However, some are definitely broader - like Primetime Adventures or Don't Rest Your Head. These don't define what the story is in advance, and aren't as narrow as a single adventure.
Whether you call them RPGs or not, the mere existence of games like this isn't opposed to traditional RPGs. It's perfectly possible to play and enjoy both.
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;556906Hey guys, am I doing it right? :D
I think so.
OK, fixed. (Now Korean cowboy with hat.)
Quote from: CRKrueger;556907In any case, it's damn entertaining to watch some jackass vent such impotent venomous rage.
Ain't it though? I love it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jhkim;556925Whether you call them RPGs or not, the mere existence of games like this isn't opposed to traditional RPGs.
The mere existence? No, no more than the existence of Hungry Hungry Hippos doesn't make it "opposed to RPGs".
However, if there's a movement of very dedicated people out to infiltrate RPG forums and influence RPG companies, who have demonstrated a willingness to lie, manipulate, abuse site moderation, and play with definitions in order to hijack the language of any discussion to front-load all their notions so as to force their desired results, all to the end-goal of redefining Hungry Hungry Hippos as not only an RPG but the very definition of the "right" way to do RPGs (and by "right" meaning, the "coherent" way to play RPGs that will not result in brain damage), then that absolutely would be opposed to RPGs, as it is a direct attempt to subvert the RPG hobby to turn it into something it isn't.
RPGPundit
Cartman: [walks over to Scott's end of the table] Yes! Yesss! Oh, let me taste your tears, Scott!
[starts licking Scott's tears off his face]
Cartman: Mm, your tears are so yummy and sweet!
Kyle: Dude, I think it might be best for us to never piss Cartman off again.
Stan: Good call.
Cartman: Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness! My-yummy!
[licks the tears off the table and off Scott's face]
Cartman: Mm-yummy, you guys!
[screen closes to Looney Tunes-style splash]
Cartman: Yuppitibut, that's all, folks!
(http://www.panelsonpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/scott-must-die.jpg)
Quote from: King of Old School;556885You know what would be awesome? If the gaggle of social retards who spent multiple pages in this thread talking about how TheRPGSite is about free speech and no agendas (and I'm pretty sure I saw proposed for-pay banner ads that had the words "Free Speech" and "No Agendas" prominently featured at various points of the conversation) would accept that this is no more or less true of TheRPGSite than it is of RPGnet. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you worthless fucking cuntscabs. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking. What a pack of bitches.
At least 1989 has the decency to give the honest answer to the question... not that it's any less of a fucking disgrace for being true. You worthless bottomfeeders should do society a favour and kill yourselves already.
KoOS
And right there you show why RPGsite is all about the discussion without an agenda. The above post would give you a ban if not worse at TBP. Thanks for clarifying that.
Shaken, not stirred, tears?
Quote from: Novastar;556981Shaken, not stirred, tears?
Shaken, not shtured? I would shink so.
Quote from: Imperator;556819You can't make this stuff up. Rand never fails to amuse.
What the hell....
oh my, it's sean connery, now? who will be the first to use zardoz, i wonder. . . . :eek: :rotfl:
Quote from: beeber;556991oh my, it's sean connery, now? who will be the first to use zardoz, i wonder. . . . :eek: :rotfl:
Actually, I was going for WWII movies in the glory days (1960s), and just so happened to use Sean Connery. Everyone else seemed to follow
Quote from: King of Old School;556885You know what would be awesome? If the gaggle of social retards who spent multiple pages in this thread talking about how TheRPGSite is about free speech and no agendas (and I'm pretty sure I saw proposed for-pay banner ads that had the words "Free Speech" and "No Agendas" prominently featured at various points of the conversation) would accept that this is no more or less true of TheRPGSite than it is of RPGnet. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you worthless fucking cuntscabs. Your hypocrisy is breathtaking. What a pack of bitches.
At least 1989 has the decency to give the honest answer to the question... not that it's any less of a fucking disgrace for being true. You worthless bottomfeeders should do society a favour and kill yourselves already.
KoOS
Ooh, how edgy.
Quote from: RPGPundit;556967The mere existence? No, no more than the existence of Hungry Hungry Hippos doesn't make it "opposed to RPGs".
However, if there's a movement of very dedicated people out to infiltrate RPG forums and influence RPG companies, who have demonstrated a willingness to lie, manipulate, abuse site moderation, and play with definitions in order to hijack the language of any discussion to front-load all their notions so as to force their desired results, all to the end-goal of redefining Hungry Hungry Hippos as not only an RPG but the very definition of the "right" way to do RPGs (and by "right" meaning, the "coherent" way to play RPGs that will not result in brain damage), then that absolutely would be opposed to RPGs, as it is a direct attempt to subvert the RPG hobby to turn it into something it isn't.
And this is no different than any other RPG movement. There are plenty people who enjoy the new games as an option - but there is also a subset of fans and authors who will say it is the best thing ever, and that it is the "right" way to do RPGs. For example, White Wolf fanatics said exactly the same thing about their new games in the 90s. David Berkman and other Theatrix people said that their cinematic diceless style was the right way to do RPGs. The subset who believe that will indeed try to influence everyone they can to agree with them.
A good reply to this is "There isn't a 'right' way to do RPGs, and the existing games are perfectly good. Liking your new games is a matter of preference."
A reply of "No, *your* games are the wrong way to play RPGs" is, in my opinion, counter-productive.
Quote from: jhkim;557007And this is no different than any other RPG movement. There are plenty people who enjoy the new games as an option - but there is also a subset of fans and authors who will say it is the best thing ever, and that it is the "right" way to do RPGs. For example, White Wolf fanatics said exactly the same thing about their new games in the 90s. David Berkman and other Theatrix people said that their cinematic diceless style was the right way to do RPGs. The subset who believe that will indeed try to influence everyone they can to agree with them.
A good reply to this is "There isn't a 'right' way to do RPGs, and the existing games are perfectly good. Liking your new games is a matter of preference."
A reply of "No, *your* games are the wrong way to play RPGs" is, in my opinion, counter-productive.
Except that WW games, whatever their flaws, still followed the actual structure of the RPG. What Storygamers are doing is different because they are trying to REPLACE RPGs with a totally different kind of game with a totally different set of structures and goals.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Spike;556482you take that back!!!!!!
Yeah,
serio, we must be slagging off or something.
Step up the pace, motherfuckers!
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556993Actually, I was going for WWII movies in the glory days (1960s), and just so happened to use Sean Connery. Everyone else seemed to follow
I miss the cowboy user icon spirit of community, but Tuco just being out there by himself was weird. So I went with Connery too.
I may just bring back Grimorley.
I'm going back to the cowboy/hat theme. ;)
Quote from: One Horse Town;556798Read 'em and weep, the dead-man's hand again.
I see it in your eyes
Take one look and die
Quote from: Benoist;557084I'm going back to the cowboy/hat theme. ;)
I'm just going to go for the Viking Hat theme.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556993Actually, I was going for WWII movies in the glory days (1960s), and just so happened to use Sean Connery. Everyone else seemed to follow
Actually - I think that's Connery as Urqhart in
A Bridge Too Far - which was 1977. My dad took me to see it.
The Simulacrum's hat is kinda built in...
Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;557108I think that's Connery as Urqhart in A Bridge Too Far - which was 1977.
Correctamundo.
And ain't none o' your hats as cool as mine. Arrrrrrrr, motherfuckers!
And let this be an end to it! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y75K4kU8tdg)
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?635105-Rant-Super-Dungeon-Explore-and-Tentacle-Bento-Why-Soda-Pop-WHY
But the thread came back the very next day,
The thread came back,
It just wouldn't stay away...
With a new target, but the same old moderation.
Ehhh. That's kind of a strained comparison considering the first and most vocal douche to get topic banned was one of the people whining about the game.
I don't believe it!
Quote from: One Horse Town;557937I don't believe it!
People can say what they like and you have to believe it or you're insulting their beliefs. You're excused from the thread.
That's what, four moderator actions in five pages? What a bleedin' toilet.
You gotta love Rand's mastery of the English language. "In appropriate".
Wasn't he the one who was banning people for failing to use proper spacing and grammar?
:D
Quote from: Benoist;557948You gotta love Rand's mastery of the English language. "In appropriate".
Wasn't he the one who was banning people for failing to use proper spacing and grammar?
:D
Rand has already been Reported to the Mods for Bad Grammar.
Quote from: John Morrow;556690See this thread:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7931
I was going to ask the same question as Patrick, so thanks for that
very informative link, John. I've been trying to get a handle on the RPG Pundit's views re: story games since I got here, and I finally have some idea where he's coming from.
Quote from: GetWrecked;557931http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?635105-Rant-Super-Dungeon-Explore-and-Tentacle-Bento-Why-Soda-Pop-WHY
But the thread came back the very next day,
The thread came back,
It just wouldn't stay away...
With a new target, but the same old moderation.
The other day upon the stair
I saw a thread that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
I thought the mods made it go away
The Cat Came Back. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cat_Came_Back)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;556087What happened over there is that they promoted Rand to a moderator and now he's banning people for things like starting a sentence on a new line (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634634-Infraction-for-Seneschal-of-the-sun-3%29-Three-Day-Ban) rather than continue it in a more traditional paragraph form.
What the fuck!! :confused:
I think I won't post there anymore. I have less and less tolerance for assholes.
Quote from: Marleycat;556090Thank God it got reversed I have no idea how you can ban somebody for bad grammar and expect to be taken seriously.
He still got a warning. For that.
Quote from: J Arcane;557936Ehhh. That's kind of a strained comparison considering the first and most vocal douche to get topic banned was one of the people whining about the game.
I'm not really surprised, considering that when
Tentacle Bento was first brought up during the original Kickstarter, the mods already warned that any future threads about the game would come under tightened scrutiny. And it's not even
out yet.
(From the latest announcement by Soda Pop, just a couple of hours ago:
"The product files have been sent to our printers, and we are in the production process right now. We are still optimistic that we can be shipping product out to all our supporters in August, and out to retailers in September.")
Quote from: Claudius;558101What the fuck!! :confused:
I think I won't post there anymore. I have less and less tolerance for assholes.
More like the assholes have less and less tolerance for nonconformity.
JG
Someone got berated in that con rape thread there for having the gall to suggest that women might educate themselves in self-defense techniques, which apparently means you're tacitly supporting "rape culture" by "blaming the woman".
For fuck's sake.
Quote from: J Arcane;558369Someone got berated in that con rape thread there for having the gall to suggest that women might educate themselves in self-defense techniques, which apparently means you're tacitly supporting "rape culture" by "blaming the woman".
For fuck's sake.
Six lines my friend. Six lines.
Quote from: J Arcane;558369Someone got berated in that con rape thread there for having the gall to suggest that women might educate themselves in self-defense techniques, which apparently means you're tacitly supporting "rape culture" by "blaming the woman".
For fuck's sake.
A woman should be able to dress how she wants, look how she wants, act like she wants, where she wants, without having to think of being raped. Likewise, as a cracker I should be able to walk any park at night in South Los Angeles without the homeboys and eses fighting over who gets to kill me, and they should be able to do the same thing in Chinatown, East Hollywood or Lancaster without getting shot. This not being a perfect world, however, I try not to do that too often, and self-defense training should be something everyone considers.
Quote from: CRKrueger;558383A woman should be able to dress how she wants, look how she wants, act like she wants, where she wants, without having to think of being raped. Likewise, as a cracker I should be able to walk any park at night in South Los Angeles without the homeboys and eses fighting over who gets to kill me, and they should be able to do the same thing in Chinatown, East Hollywood or Lancaster without getting shot. This not being a perfect world, however, I try not to do that too often, and self-defense training should be something everyone considers.
Should . . . yeah.
You walk in a bad neighbourhood at night flaunting your money . . . don't be surprised if you're mugged. You were asking for it.
You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.
It's just common sense. These women dress like this to show off, to get men's attention. It's no secret.
Finally, someone had the guts to say, hey, you're dressing like sluts. There was some cognitive dissonance in the minds of these women . . . "hey, society has come to the point, where, yes, I am allowed to dress like a slut . . . and, hey, it's true, I am dressing like a SLUT!" The truth hurts. They took offense. They want to dress like sluts, and not be labelled as such. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.
I'm in Canada, where this whole slutwalk thing originated.
That police officer was telling like it is, and giving prudent, commonsense advice, the same as a parent might give a child.
But, of course, the feminists, young, idealistic, and uneducated as they are, had to jump all over this, and take ombrage.
Same thing on RPGnet. Young, entitled, and uneducated.
Edit: I just looked at my avatar and noticed the irony.
Quote from: CRKrueger;558383A woman should be able to dress how she wants, look how she wants, act like she wants, where she wants, without having to think of being raped. Likewise, as a cracker I should be able to walk any park at night in South Los Angeles without the homeboys and eses fighting over who gets to kill me, and they should be able to do the same thing in Chinatown, East Hollywood or Lancaster without getting shot. This not being a perfect world, however, I try not to do that too often, and self-defense training should be something everyone considers.
What you should be able to do and what is prudent to do are two different things. In this world a woman has to watch her back. That sir is only prudent.
Quote from: Marleycat;558428What you should be able to do and what is prudent to do are two different things. In this world a woman has to watch her back. That sir is only prudent.
Exactly, and being prudent, or suggesting others should be prudent and take some responsibility for their own safety knowing other humans are dangerous isn't an "-ism".
Quote from: CRKrueger;558436Exactly, and being prudent, or suggesting others should be prudent and take some responsibility for their own safety knowing other humans are dangerous isn't an "-ism".
Exactamundo. You will notice there are no women that really participate in those threads? Ever wonder why.
Quote from: 1989;558420Should . . . yeah.
You walk in a bad neighbourhood at night flaunting your money . . . don't be surprised if you're mugged. You were asking for it.
You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.
It's just common sense. These women dress like this to show off, to get men's attention. It's no secret.
Finally, someone had the guts to say, hey, you're dressing like sluts. There was some cognitive dissonance in the minds of these women . . . "hey, society has come to the point, where, yes, I am allowed to dress like a slut . . . and, hey, it's true, I am dressing like a SLUT!" The truth hurts. They took offense. They want to dress like sluts, and not be labelled as such. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.
...and how did we get from "teaching self defence to women is supporting rape", to "dressing in skimpy clothes is asking to be raped"? These do not follow at all.
The first is obviously nonsense, both men and women should learn self defence as a matter of course, many asian cultures have the right idea, teaching martial arts in schools. Yes that comes with a downside in that mouthbreathing bottom feeders are also taught it, but I feel overall its a positive.
The second is also nonsense. What is a slut? A woman who likes sex or dresses as though she likes sex? If it was a man he'd be lauded as a stud. A woman who isn't afraid to show her body off? More power to her, there's nothing immoral about a leg or a midriff, or even a nipple or vagina. This is doubly insulting as it implies men generally haven't the self restraint to resist raping women - what, is Canada an extremist Islamic enclave now?
"Sluts" my slablike buttocks.
I would further say that someone demented enough to actively consider a real physical sexual assault isn't going to give a damn whether or not a woman is wearing a miniskirt or her winter woollies, given the opportunity the opportunity will be taken, underlining once again that rape usually has fuck all to do with sexual attraction.
I had no idea that 1989 was actually an active member of the Taliban (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57468298/video-shows-afghan-woman-executed-by-taliban-treatment-of-women-continues-to-erode/).
Tell me more of how women should be treated, 1989.
oh, wait, no, on second thought don't. What I meant to say was "into my ignore list you go you disgusting little fuck, you shitstain on the internet, you living example of everything everyone thinks is wrong with gamers, you model example of creepy fatbeard".
Tell me what you really think, O, White Knight.
Well, this is the only place still talking about this really. Maybe it's time to move on.
Quote from: Marleycat;558437Exactamundo. You will notice there are no women that really participate in those threads? Ever wonder why.
There are women on those boards? I mean, besides you?
Who'd of thought?
Quote from: Marleycat;558428What you should be able to do and what is prudent to do are two different things. In this world a woman has to watch her back. That sir is only prudent.
In this world any
individual has to watch his/her back, in different ways and for different reasons given the situation.
The problem with many people is the inability to accept that two things can be true at the same time. Becoming an easy target for a crime by acting irresponsibly
doesn't justify the crime at all. The two things are even quite related: the former goes against the duty of responsibility that each one has towards himself regarding his well being; the latter is still a crime because each one is responsible for his own actions no matter what caused them. There is not space for "either, or" in these matters.
I remember the early '90s in New York City, when pamphlets advised you "not to look like a tourist". Looking around while holding a map, snapping pictures at fire hydrants, and gaping in awe at the Empire State Building could mark you as "an easy target for mugging".
Was this discrimination against tourists? No, it was only common sense. Was it a justification for muggers? No, mugging was still a crime. And no one ever organized "tourist pride" marches against this sane advice.
Exactly.
Quote from: Reckall;558505I remember the early '90s in New York City, when pamphlets advised you "not to look like a tourist". Looking around while holding a map, snapping pictures at fire hydrants, and gaping in awe at the Empire State Building could mark you as "an easy target for mugging".
Was this discrimination against tourists? No, it was only common sense. Was it a justification for muggers? No, mugging was still a crime. And no one ever organized "tourist pride" marches against this sane advice.
Which would matter if rapists primarily targeted hot girls in skimpy clothes. Which is not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factors_associated_with_being_a_victim_of_sexual_violence) the case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence). Rape is not mugging, its done for entirely different reasons, and most rapes are committed upon women known to the rapist. Can we dispense with this "asking for it" idiocy now?
Quote from: The Traveller;558508Can we dispense with this "asking for it" idiocy now?
No one, except for a not totally sane individual, "asks" for something bad. Still, each one has responsibilities towards him/herself so that the bad doesn't happen. Can we now dispense with this "I do what I want and the World
must submit to the way I want it to be!!!" childishness now? Because I have a secret to share with you: it will not.
Quote from: The Traveller;558508Which would matter if rapists primarily targeted hot girls in skimpy clothes. Which is not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factors_associated_with_being_a_victim_of_sexual_violence) the case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence). Rape is not mugging, its done for entirely different reasons, and most rapes are committed upon women known to the rapist. Can we dispense with this "asking for it" idiocy now?
It's a figure of speech. Nobody asks for it. It means, you didn't take adequate precaution or heed advice/common sense.
(http://i.imgur.com/YguTq.jpg)
Quote from: Reckall;558518No one, except for a not totally sane individual, "asks" for something bad. Still, each one has responsibilities towards him/herself so that the bad doesn't happen. Can we now dispense with this "I do what I want and the World must submit to the way I want it to be!!!" childishness now? Because I have a secret to share with you: it will not.
Why do you equate wearing skimpy clothes to demanding the world goes your way? Where, exactly, in all the depth of information in the links provided do you see
miniskirts?
I'm not asking you to take my word for it, and I don't really give a fuck about your opinion on the matter. I am however much more prepared to believe the decades of research and study that has gone into this very unpleasant question.
Or is this a case of you demanding that the world must submit to the way you want it to be?
Quote from: 1989;558521It's a figure of speech. Nobody asks for it. It means, you didn't take adequate precaution or heed advice/common sense.
Are you sure you aren't living in Pakistan? Because wearing form-concealing clothes is exactly zero protection against rape. Simples, no?
What does that have to do with anything?
People are raped regardless of what they wear.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;558498There are women on those boards? I mean, besides you?
Who'd of thought?
There a number but most of them are in Tangency. There may be one or two that post in the D20 subforum but most that post in the gaming section do so in TRO.
Quote from: 1989;558528What does that have to do with anything?
Quote from: 1989;558420You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.
I should hope at this stage you'll just accept the facts gracefully and move on. The facts being, what you wear has nothing to do with your chances of being sexually assaulted.
Quote from: The Traveller;558530I should hope at this stage you'll just accept the facts gracefully and move on. The facts being, what you wear has nothing to do with your chances of being sexually assaulted.
I don't see what you're saying here.
What you're wearing can certainly affect the chances. You'd be incredibly naive to think otherwise.
Quote from: Reckall;558505I remember the early '90s in New York City, when pamphlets advised you "not to look like a tourist". Looking around while holding a map, snapping pictures at fire hydrants, and gaping in awe at the Empire State Building could mark you as "an easy target for mugging".
Was this discrimination against tourists? No, it was only common sense. Was it a justification for muggers? No, mugging was still a crime. And no one ever organized "tourist pride" marches against this sane advice.
I'd say that's because those particular actions aren't an important part of people's identity - i.e. there isn't a collective group who take pride in being a tourist. (For what it's worth, I'm a New Yorker originally, and lived in Manhattan from '91 to '93.)
If the feature that was being targeted was something that the people took pride in, then they can and should organize pride in it. There are, say, people who take pride in being Jewish - and when Jewish people (especially Orthodox) were targeted in New York, they were organizing to stop it. In earlier decades, you saw the same thing like the Irish organizing and taking open pride in being Irish rather than trying to hide their origin. Likewise for black people.
I don't see anything wrong with the St. Patrick's Day parade where people show their pride in being Irish. Likewise, I don't see a problem with an event where people take pride in being women.
Quote from: The Traveller;558530I should hope at this stage you'll just accept the facts gracefully and move on. The facts being, what you wear has nothing to do with your chances of being sexually assaulted.
This seems to be true of all the data I've seen as well. People (not just women) who appear weak are the top targets, because rape is generally about power and control, and rapists will target those who they think they can manipulate or force. (there's always exceptions of course, but as a general rule)
I didn't read the Tang thread, but if someone said don't bother learning self defense because it never works, they need to be educated. True, a two-week course in self defense most likely won't increase combat skills, but it misses the most important benefit. Those course increase confidence and self esteem, which are two things that make you less of a target. Fighting back isn't the only way to avoid getting assaulted. Reducing your risk overall also helps.
I thought about posting a cavalcade of photos of plain-jane looking women in the US and around the world who were victims of rape and worse and by 1989s definition "deserved it" but there's only so much I can stomach to do to try to make him shut the fuck up. Also, killfiled anyway, so.
Quote from: 1989;558420You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it.
Here's the specific problem with this kind of rhetoric: Saying that a woman was "asking" for rape is to say that it is not, in fact, rape.
Clothing -- no matter how evocative or revealing -- does not grant permission. Period.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;558537I thought about posting a cavalcade of photos of plain-jane looking women in the US and around the world who were victims of rape and worse and by 1989s definition "deserved it" but there's only so much I can stomach to do to try to make him shut the fuck up. Also, killfiled anyway, so.
Please don't. Rape is not about sex, it's about power and control and has jack all about what you wear.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;558538Here's the specific problem with this kind of rhetoric: Saying that a woman was "asking" for rape is to say that it is not, in fact, rape.
Clothing -- no matter how evocative or revealing -- does not grant permission. Period.
Of course it doesn't grant permission. Nobody said it did.
Quote from: The Traveller;558525Why do you equate wearing skimpy clothes to demanding the world goes your way? Where, exactly, in all the depth of information in the links provided do you see miniskirts?
Where, in what I wrote, you found the word
miniskirts? Or I talked about women only? Can you point it to me?
Now that you have found that you can't, let's talk about "research": a girlfriend of mine wrote a paper about prevention of violence against women in contemporary times. This was back in 2006, for her exam to become a Police Lieutenant. And in the preface she, speaking as a woman, underlined how
prevention is responsibility both of the individual and of the society at large. This has nothing to do with the fact that the act you try to prevent is criminal, and must be fully prosecuted by the law. It doesn't justify it, it doesn't ask for lenience for the perpetrator. Actually the responsibilities of the perpetrator under the law
wasn't even the point of the paper (except where the text underlined how irresponsibility by the victim must not be used as an excuse to lower the seriousness of the crime).
Still (and I personally apply the principle to any type of crime) no one can avoid the unexpected, but you still can (and should) avoid dangerous behaviours - the way everybody does in any other aspect of his life.
Either that, or I can show you some truly seedy parts of Milan where you can go around flashing a wallet full of money, smiling serene in your pampered ideal that "A and B are unrelated! Flashing money in a 'skimpy miniwallet' is my right! And when the paramedics will try to screw my teeth back don't thou dare to fingerwag me". (Something, incidentally, that I won't do, being it futile).
It would be an interesting experiment. I'll provide the place, you the money. What do you think?
Quote from: Reckall;558544Where, in what I wrote, you found the word miniskirts? Or I talked about women only? Can you point it to me?
Really? You start babbling about tourists being obvious visible targets and you weren't drawing a line between that and revealing clothing?
Quote from: Reckall;558544And in the preface she, speaking as a woman, underlined how prevention is responsibility both of the individual and of the society at large.
So what? Prevention in this case doesn't mean don't wear revealing clothes, it means don't get falling down drunk and wander into a dark alleyway or any one of the several behaviours which are actually associated with sexual violence. Among them not being what you wear. Clearly you didn't bother reading, never mind understanding, the links and I'm assuming you're no longer in a relationship with that woman for no doubt unrelated reasons.
Quote from: Reckall;558544Still (and I personally apply the principle to any type of crime) no one can avoid the unexpected, but you still can (and should) avoid dangerous behaviours - the way everybody does in any other aspect of his life.
I can see this is going to have to be underlined, although you're making a point of not coming right out and saying what you're actually saying.
Quote from: Reckall;558544Either that, or I can show you some truly seedy parts of Milan where you can go around flashing a wallet full of money, smiling serene in your pampered ideal that "A and B are unrelated! Flashing money in a 'skimpy miniwallet' is my right! And when the paramedics will try to screw my teeth back don't thou dare to fingerwag me". (Something, incidentally, that I won't do, being it futile).
It would be an interesting experiment. I'll provide the place, you the money. What do you think?
I think you're being wilfully stupid. Don't worry, you can always claim you were trolling later, that covers a multitude on the internet. I'm sure its the ace 1989 has up his sleeve.
Lets try spelling this out. A mugger wants your money. Hence the mugging. A rapist isn't particularly interested in sex. They are more interested in power, or anger, or other related headfuckery. It doesn't matter whether or not you're wearing a string bikini, that's not the point. And this is what you're missing. Sexually attractive attire is not particularly attractive to a rapist, beacuse that's not what they are after.
But if you'd skimmed over the links briefly you'd already know that.
Fucking puritans, once again I raise a caffeinated beverage to whatever ill tempered monarch ran the useless bastards out of Europe on a rail. And my condolences, Americas.
Quote from: The Traveller;558550Lets try spelling this out. A mugger wants your money. Hence the mugging. A rapist isn't particularly interested in sex. They are more interested in power, or anger, or other related headfuckery. It doesn't matter whether or not you're wearing a string bikini, that's not the point. And this is what you're missing.
Actually, what
you are missing, and big time, is how a rapist wants "power, or anger, or other related headfuckery"
through my body. Hence the rape - by definition a violation of the most private belongings, both physical and mental, of the individual.
I could also point out, BTW, with all your attempts at "modern, wise thinking", how you constantly assume that people around you equate rape with "beautiful women" and only when they are "wearing a string bikini". Rape can be man on woman, woman on woman, man on man or even woman on man. Rape is perpetrated by an
individual against another
individual. Gender, race, way of dressing, religious affiliation etc. can all be an initiating factor according to circumstances (like a war) and the mind of the perpetrator - but not "THE REASON".
So, please, spare us words of wisdom like:
QuoteSexually attractive attire is not particularly attractive to a rapist, beacuse that's not what they are after.
...Which only prove your inability to read what others actually write, not to mention your faith in the "Forces of Banality". Two cents for you: we were already there. And "prevention" can just be that: don't go in a dark alley while you are drunk. Or, even better, don't drive while you are very tired - even if the one who at the end burns the red light is the other guy
Quote from: Reckall;558556Actually, what you are missing, and big time, is how a rapist wants "power, or anger, or other related headfuckery" through my body. Hence the rape - by definition a violation of the most private belongings, both physical and mental, of the individual.
I could also point out, BTW, with all your attempts at "modern, wise thinking", how you constantly assume that people around you equate rape with "beautiful women" and only when they are "wearing a string bikini". Rape can be man on woman, woman on woman, man on man or even woman on man. Rape is perpetrated by an individual against another individual. Gender, race, way of dressing, religious affiliation etc. can all be an initiating factor according to circumstances (like a war) and the mind of the perpetrator - but not "THE REASON".
So, please, spare us words of wisdom like:
...Which only prove your inability to read what others actually write, not to mention your faith in the "Forces of Banality". Two cents for you: we were already there. And "prevention" can just be that: don't go in a dark alley while you are drunk. Or, even better, don't drive while you are very tired - even if the one who at the end burns the red light is the other guy
...signifying nothing.
Quote from: 1989You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.
It's just common sense. These women dress like this to show off, to get men's attention. It's no secret.
Finally, someone had the guts to say, hey, you're dressing like sluts. There was some cognitive dissonance in the minds of these women . . . "hey, society has come to the point, where, yes, I am allowed to dress like a slut . . . and, hey, it's true, I am dressing like a SLUT!" The truth hurts. They took offense. They want to dress like sluts, and not be labelled as such. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.
Yeah, like others, I'm not buying this. This is a thin excuse to use the issue of rape to push a Puritanical view, but rape isn't set off by showing off one's body.
Quote from: 1989;558420Should . . . yeah.
You walk in a bad neighbourhood at night flaunting your money . . . don't be surprised if you're mugged. You were asking for it.
You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.
It's just common sense. These women dress like this to show off, to get men's attention. It's no secret.
Finally, someone had the guts to say, hey, you're dressing like sluts. There was some cognitive dissonance in the minds of these women . . . "hey, society has come to the point, where, yes, I am allowed to dress like a slut . . . and, hey, it's true, I am dressing like a SLUT!" The truth hurts. They took offense. They want to dress like sluts, and not be labelled as such. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.
I'm in Canada, where this whole slutwalk thing originated.
That police officer was telling like it is, and giving prudent, commonsense advice, the same as a parent might give a child.
But, of course, the feminists, young, idealistic, and uneducated as they are, had to jump all over this, and take ombrage.
Same thing on RPGnet. Young, entitled, and uneducated.
Edit: I just looked at my avatar and noticed the irony.
I think we all did. :D
JG
QuoteThese women dress like this to show off, to get men's attention. It's no secret.
Summer dude, shit gets hot and folks dress skimpy to beat the heat.
Quote from: Planet Algol;558638Summer dude, shit gets hot and folks dress skimpy to beat the heat.
Exactly, especially here in the Midwest it's been 100° two weeks running with the typical humidity. You're insane if you're not wearing at least a Sundress with some open toed sandals to work like me.
Edit: 1989, irony doesn't even start to define it.:D
Quote from: 1989;558420Should . . . yeah.
You walk in a bad neighbourhood at night flaunting your money . . . don't be surprised if you're mugged. You were asking for it.
You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.
It's just common sense. These women dress like this to show off, to get men's attention. It's no secret.
You really are a sad, sheltered little man.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;558498There are women on those boards? I mean, besides you?
Who'd of thought?
To be fair, marleycat is a tranny. That really only counts in certain circles.
Quote from: Declan MacManus;558658To be fair, marleycat is a tranny. That really only counts in certain circles.
Declan is giving me shit, cool I'm one step closer to my ultimate goal of being as "hated" as Benoist. :D
By the way, where is my Sierra Mist for that awesome post in the OG thread?
Quote from: Marleycat;558660Denclan is giving me shit, cool I'm one step closer to my ultimate goal of being as "hated" as Benoist. :D
By the way, where is my Sierra Mist for that awesome post in the OG thread?
Benoist is hated?
I think that the only people who hate Ben-wah are the human-shaped counting machines from the gaming den, and they hate everything that has a soul.
If I meet Ben in real life, I'm totally gonna buy that nigga some draaaanks.
Let's just say I have my fan club. :D
The drinks would much welcome, and reciprocated. ;)
Quote from: Declan MacManus;558665Benoist is hated?
I think that the only people who hate Ben-wah are the human-shaped counting machines from the gaming den, and they hate everything that has a soul.
If I meet Ben in real life, I'm totally gonna buy that nigga some draaaanks.
Note the quotation marks. It's a joke son, but seriously I like him lots and respect him even though I disagree with him on some things. I still want to be as respected as he is. You could call me a fangirl, he has views and he has the set to defend them. That's what I call awesome in my book.
Quote from: The Traveller;558550Lets try spelling this out. A mugger wants your money. Hence the mugging. A rapist isn't particularly interested in sex.
Except that he blows his load at the end.
I hear people say that rape isn't about sex, but I don't know if I completely buy that. Some of it has to be. Any crime where the criminal pop his cork at the end has to be about sex on some level. My problem is that as soon as someone throws that out there they are just a couple steps away from being accused of blaming the victim.
Quote from: Marleycat;558670Note the quotation marks. It's a joke son, but seriously I like him lots and respect him even though I disagree with him on some things. I still want to be as respected as he is. You could call me a fangirl, he has views and he has the set to defend them. That's what I call awesome in my book.
Defending views doesn't take a "set" and is really only commendable when you aren't wrong, as a general thing.
I don't think that Benoist's views are often wrong, but I would like to point out that the Westboro Baptist Church defends their views as well, however poorly.
Are you meaning ejaculate? Sometimes it doesn't happen. But the thing is it's the domination in all forms that trip their trigger, clothes have nothing to do with it.
Quote from: 1989;558420Should . . . yeah.
You walk in a bad neighbourhood at night flaunting your money . . . don't be surprised if you're mugged. You were asking for it.
You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.
It's just common sense. These women dress like this to show off, to get men's attention. It's no secret.
Finally, someone had the guts to say, hey, you're dressing like sluts. There was some cognitive dissonance in the minds of these women . . . "hey, society has come to the point, where, yes, I am allowed to dress like a slut . . . and, hey, it's true, I am dressing like a SLUT!" The truth hurts. They took offense. They want to dress like sluts, and not be labelled as such. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.
I'm in Canada, where this whole slutwalk thing originated.
That police officer was telling like it is, and giving prudent, commonsense advice, the same as a parent might give a child.
But, of course, the feminists, young, idealistic, and uneducated as they are, had to jump all over this, and take ombrage.
Same thing on RPGnet. Young, entitled, and uneducated.
Edit: I just looked at my avatar and noticed the irony.
Some days I just want to pour gasoline over my computer and set it on fire.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;558677Some days I just want to pour gasoline over my computer and set it on fire.
Good day to do it but I like him and trying my best to give me an excuse not to IL him. People mess up this is his Mcguffin for me. He does clarify downthread but he has work to do to completely convince me. Luckily I 'm fairly "coolheaded".:)
Quote from: Black Vulmea;558677Some days I just want to pour gasoline over my computer and set it on fire.
Forums are really starting to depress the fuck out of me, and I've been back to posting and reading for just over a month. That seems to be about my limit for the last couple of years.
Quote from: Gib;558688Forums are really starting to depress the fuck out of me, and I've been back to posting and reading for just over a month. That seems to be about my limit for the last couple of years.
I hope not Gib, we can't just let the inmates run the asylum without a fight.
Bunch of dumbass White Knights here who refuse to accept common sense.
Antecedents of sexual victimization: factors discriminating victims from nonvictims.
Synovitz LB, Byrne TJ., J Am Coll Health. Jan;46(4):151-8. (1998)
Partial abstract:
The variables found to be related to women's being sexually victimized were (a) number of different lifetime sexual partners, (b) provocative dress, and (c) alcohol use.
------------------
An Examination of Date Rape, Victim Dress, and Perceiver Variables Within the Context of Attribution Theory
Workman JE, Freeburg EW., Sex Roles, Volume 41, Numbers 3-4, 261-277 (1995)
This study found in part that the way a woman choose to dress is sometimes taken as a statement about her character including vulnerability, desire and/or willingness to have sex and provocation of males which consequently affects the likelihood of rape, including date rape.
--------------------------
The effects of clothing and dyad sex composition on perceptions of sexual intent: Do women and men evaluate these cues differently.
Abbey, A., Cozzarelli, C., McLaughlin, K., & Harnish, R. J. (1987) Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 17, 108–126.
Partial abstract:
A laboratory study was conducted in which subjects viewed a photograph of two students in a classroom. As predicted, male subjects rated female targets as more sexy and seductive than did female subjects. Also as predicted, female targets who wore revealing clothing were rated as more sexy and seductive than those wearing nonrevealing clothing. Female targets were rated higher on sexual traits regardless of the gender of their partner.
The study went on to infer that provocative dress can lead to an increased chance of date or spousal rape in some situations (primarily spousal and/or date rape).
--------------
http://www.brandonsun.com/breaking-news/rape-victim-inviting-so-no-jail--rape-victim-inviting-so-no-jail-116801578.html?viewAllComments=y
A convicted rapist will not go to jail because a Manitoba judge says the victim sent signals that "sex was in the air" through her suggestive attire and flirtatious conduct on the night of the attack.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;558677Some days I just want to pour gasoline over my computer and set it on fire.
Oh god,
please.
Good stats 1989. you do know that rape has differing definitions? Most of which I don't agree with. My issue is be "very" careful with said definitions. Over and out. Marley is very uncomfortable talking about this subject, fair warning. But I have to say this clear enough for you and the monkeys. Date Rape is a whole other facet of straight rape but it all means the same. Please make me wrong 1989. I seriously want to be wrong, help me dude.
Quote from: Marleycat;558709Good stats 1989. you do know that rape has differing definitions? Most of which I don't agree with. My issue is be "very" careful with said definitions. Over and out. Marley is very uncomfortable talking about this subject, fair warning. But I have to say this clear enough for you and the monkeys. Date Rape is a whole other facet of straight rape but it all means the same. Please make me wrong 1989. I seriously want to be wrong, help me dude.
I suspect your hope is misplaced, for I've never heard a speech prefaced with a cry of "white knight" that was not then followed by verbiage most abominable.
Never take stock in a man who decries chivalry and honor, for it will hold no value.
Quote from: J Arcane;558711I suspect your hope is misplaced, for I've never heard a speech prefaced with a cry of "white knight" that was not then followed by verbiage most abominable.
Never take stock in a man who decries chivalry and honor, for it will hold no value.
Totally confused. You calling me a "white knight"?
Quote from: Marleycat;558712Totally confused. You calling me a "white knight"?
No. I've been reading too much Shakespeare and am feeling wordy. My apologies.
What I mean in plainer English is that I've never seen anyone who accused someone of being a white knight who wasn't a colossal jackass.
Especially not one who capitalized the phrase.
Quote from: 1989;558694A laboratory study was conducted in which subjects viewed a photograph of two students in a classroom. As predicted, male subjects rated female targets as more sexy and seductive than did female subjects. Also as predicted, female targets who wore revealing clothing were rated as more sexy and seductive than those wearing nonrevealing clothing. Female targets were rated higher on sexual traits regardless of the gender of their partner.
The study went on to infer that provocative dress can lead to an increased chance of date or spousal rape in some situations (primarily spousal and/or date rape).
Are you seriously that simple or do you just play it on the internet. You find some toilet paper which makes the bold claim that men find women in sexy clothes more sexy, and then leaps from that masterpiece of scientific deduction to "which therefore makes them more likely to be raped" with exactly zero cause or reason. None.
Not one.
Here's betting that particular undergrad weekend project wasn't peer reviewed. Especially since it flies in the face of the actual research. Actually I think it was cited in a few papers on the subject of "Women and mental disorders".
Quote from: 1989;558694A convicted rapist will not go to jail because a Manitoba judge says the victim sent signals that "sex was in the air" through her suggestive attire and flirtatious conduct on the night of the attack.
You want me to link to about five million cases of insane judges? We can start with that guy that managed to keep his job for years despite openly admitting he consulted invisible dwarves to help him decide his cases.
Isn't the whole dress & appearance thing kind of a red herring, statistically? Even if all the "tell me I was asking for it" stuff is wrongheaded and misses the point isn't it better to just leave it alone? It's not the sorta argument that's gonna go anywhere.
The real elephant in the room is alcohol use, over 50% on both sides of the equation.
Quote from: J Arcane;558716No. I've been reading too much Shakespeare and am feeling wordy. My apologies.
What I mean in plainer English is that I've never seen anyone who accused someone of being a white knight who wasn't a colossal jackass.
Especially not one who capitalized the phrase.
Oh, cool. I have CP so typing on a phone or computer isn't my strength. :)
Quote from: Alathon;558721Isn't the whole dress & appearance thing kind of a red herring, statistically? Even if all the "tell me I was asking for it" stuff is wrongheaded and misses the point isn't it better to just leave it alone? It's not the sorta argument that's gonna go anywhere.
The real elephant in the room is alcohol use, over 50% on both sides of the equation.
Of course, we girls strive to be attractive, don't you do the same? Why are you saying we must do the "Taliban"thing? Or it's an excuse for rape? Seriously?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;558677Some days I just want to pour gasoline over my computer and set it on fire.
Some men just want to watch the Internet burn.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;558725Some men just want to watch the Internet burn.
JG
Thank God. JG is here, he is my tylanol for the migrane that is building because of this sillyness. Sorry for the pressure James, but you can take it.:D
Quote from: Marleycat;558724Of course, we girls strive to be attractive, don't you do the same? Why are you saying we must do the "Taliban"thing? Or it's an excuse for rape? Seriously?
No, I'm saying that much of the conversation around attire and rape is disingenuous, and it's mostly dumb to talk about because it's 99% irrelevant to the topic of rape. There are bigger fish to fry.
Anyone who claims that a woman dressing like a slut was "asking for it" is full of shit, doesn't know what "asking for it" means or more likely is deliberately trolling.
It is correct to claim that dressing sexily has a measurable impact on mens expectations of what women want. In this context, it's really not worth discussing though because it always gets re-interpreted into "you're saying she deserved it! slut shaming! slut shaming!". And it's such a small part of the equation compared to big things like the impact of alcohol use, it's better to just leave attire the hell alone.
Quote from: Alathon;558732No, I'm saying that much of the conversation around attire and rape is disingenuous, and it's mostly dumb to talk about because it's 99% irrelevant to the topic of rape. There are bigger fish to fry.
Anyone who claims that a woman dressing like a slut was "asking for it" is full of shit, doesn't know what "asking for it" means or more likely is deliberately trolling.
It is correct to claim that dressing sexily has a measurable impact on mens expectations of what women want. In this context, it's really not worth discussing though because it always gets re-interpreted into "you're saying she deserved it! slut shaming! slut shaming!". And it's such a small part of the equation compared to big things like the impact of alcohol use, it's better to just leave attire the hell alone.
Glad I don't have to IL you. Enough said.
Well, this thread has become a real sewer, not that it was ever particularly great. I guess that's my cue to become re-involved.
Let me see if I grasp this properly:
Mongoose publishes the d20 Macho Women with Guns, written by James Desborugh. Someone realized this book exists, after, what, five years? and gets somewhat het up about it, then discovers that Desborough is... a guy.
Shitstorm ensues, ensnaring Mongoose and, of course Desborough, who hits back below the belt, and the RPGsite buys a banner ad.
Discussion on theRPGsite actually devolves AFTER the banner ad diversion into a shit storm full of She Was Asking For It and You're A Pro-Rape accusations.
Of course, no one mentioned MWwG's prior to this, so I could be off track (but it IS a Mongoose product with James Desborough credited as the writer...).
But that leaves me wondering why no one has complained about Blacksburg Tactical Research and Greg Porter?
So here I am in my very best waders (they're Prada), fishing for crap.
Spike has the right of it. This thread has wandered off the reservation into tangency talk.
(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9228640.jpg)
Quote from: Spike;558764Of course, no one mentioned MWwG's prior to this, so I could be off track (but it IS a Mongoose product with James Desborough credited as the writer...).
But that leaves me wondering why no one has complained about Blacksburg Tactical Research and Greg Porter?
Really, that's probably because most people aren't familiar with the original Macho Women With Guns. However, I own it and have run it several times and had a blast. It is not problematic, in my opinion, and is in fact truly satirical. It was cool playing macho powerful women characters who shoot large holes in sexist jerks.
http://jhkimrpg.livejournal.com/tag/macho%20women%20with%20guns
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/
I don't own the d20 version and so can't speak definitively. However, it seemed to me from browsing that the d20 version lost the satirical spirit of the original that actually poked fun at sexism in geek media. On the basis of the change of tone, I decided not to buy it.
I remember owning the original (or, by wiki details, the original three book collection), but found no need/desire for the d20 version myself.
Being a BTRC fan (I own CORPS, and used to own Timelords... and some sort of Cyberpunk themed game from them too), I just found it curious that the hate stopped with Mongoose/Desborough.
Honestly, being an inoffensive satire is NOT a defense against these sorts of attacks... as evidenced by the original Dickwolf outrage (you know: Poking fun at quests that have you rescuing five dudes out of dozens in horrible monster-slavery... in order to point out how fucked up that really is).
Quote from: Spike;558764Let me see if I grasp this properly:
Mongoose publishes the d20 Macho Women with Guns, written by James Desborugh. Someone realized this book exists, after, what, five years? and gets somewhat het up about it, then discovers that Desborough is... a guy.
Shitstorm ensues, ensnaring Mongoose and, of course Desborough, who hits back below the belt, and the RPGsite buys a banner ad.
No.
My interest in starting this thread was the agenda driven false accusations by MalaDicta from tBP which led to an unwarranted smear campaign against a freelance writer and Mongoose Publishing.
This is pretty important to both the hobby and the industry of tabletop RPGs.
Quote from: One Horse Town;558767Spike has the right of it.
Not by a long shot.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;558780derp....derp....derp...
Honey, the Git needs to be burped again!
I don't know anything about Greg Porter, and truthfully I don't care. If he was as much of a shithead as Grim, I'd dislike him just as much. But I've never heard of him, say, statting up a rape monster, or casually dismissing people being threatened with assault.
I've got his space game, Slag!. Looks like a lot of fun.
Quote from: jeff37923;558853No.
My interest in starting this thread was the agenda driven false accusations by MalaDicta from tBP which led to an unwarranted smear campaign against a freelance writer and Mongoose Publishing.
This is pretty important to both the hobby and the industry of tabletop RPGs.
Not by a long shot.
But what, pray tell, drove MalaDicta to select the Mongoose/Desborough matchup for her smear campaign?
Because, yes, even attention farmers need something to point to in order to whip up Our Ladies of Perpetual Outrage. We haven't (quite) gotten to the point where they can just point to empty space and draw names out of hats. yet.
Quote from: Spike;558857But what, pray tell, drove MalaDicta to select the Mongoose/Desborough matchup for her smear campaign?
Because, yes, even attention farmers need something to point to in order to whip up Our Ladies of Perpetual Outrage. We haven't (quite) gotten to the point where they can just point to empty space and draw names out of hats. yet.
The Goons at Something Awful dug up a recent post by Grim about the Tomb Raider trailer in which he suggested that "rape is an awesome plot device."
They trolled RPGnet with it, MalaDicta saw it and flipped out, and dug up that he'd done one of his sexist "guides to female gamers" again for Mongoose, and combined that with some serious misquotings and outlandish claims of being the world's most repeated rape victim not from the Congo, as justification to start the aforementioned petition campaign.
Quote from: Spike;558857But what, pray tell, drove MalaDicta to select the Mongoose/Desborough matchup for her smear campaign?
Because, yes, even attention farmers need something to point to in order to whip up Our Ladies of Perpetual Outrage. We haven't (quite) gotten to the point where they can just point to empty space and draw names out of hats. yet.
From what I gather, it was Grim's blog discussion of using rape as a literary tool to drive plot that made MalaDicta declare war. Matthew Sprange was the only industry leader who bothered to answer MalaDicta's accusations, since she also targetted WotC and SJG in her initial salvo.
Quote from: J Arcane;558858The Goons at Something Awful dug up a recent post by Grim about the Tomb Raider trailer in which he suggested that "rape is an awesome plot device."
They trolled RPGnet with it, MalaDicta saw it and flipped out, and dug up that he'd done one of his sexist "guides to female gamers" again for Mongoose, and combined that with some serious misquotings and outlandish claims of being the world's most repeated rape victim not from the Congo, as justification to start the aforementioned petition campaign.
Yep, yep. Let's not forget the goons' role in all this.
Quote from: J Arcane;558858The Goons at Something Awful dug up a recent post by Grim about the Tomb Raider trailer in which he suggested that "rape is an awesome plot device."
They trolled RPGnet with it, MalaDicta saw it and flipped out, and dug up that he'd done one of his sexist "guides to female gamers" again for Mongoose, and combined that with some serious misquotings and outlandish claims of being the world's most repeated rape victim not from the Congo, as justification to start the aforementioned petition campaign.
J Arcane fills in the gaps in my knowledge.
Quote from: Reckall;558544...prevention is responsibility both of the individual and of the society at large. This has nothing to do with the fact that the act you try to prevent is criminal, and must be fully prosecuted by the law. It doesn't justify it, it doesn't ask for lenience for the perpetrator. Actually the responsibilities of the perpetrator under the law wasn't even the point of the paper (except where the text underlined how irresponsibility by the victim must not be used as an excuse to lower the seriousness of the crime).
Still (and I personally apply the principle to any type of crime) no one can avoid the unexpected, but you still can (and should) avoid dangerous behaviours - the way everybody does in any other aspect of his life.
Good post. Japan has laws on the book to promote public responsibility. If a store gets' burglarized and it is determined that the owner didn't take proper precautions to avoid being an easy target they can be fined for 'promoting crime', so this isn't a completely alien concept to the 1st world, just most of the western hemisphere and especially the Anglophone world.
Civic virtue is pretty much dead in most of the 1st world because we no longer believe that a lawful and peaceful society is the responsibility of individual citizens and have devolved that responsibility back to state institutions. Our model of 'freedom' is the freedom from the consequences of our actions.
I don't think Japan is a society that could be accused of being particular light on the perpatrator either, despite the pervasive culture of 'victim blaming'.
That being said research (real research, from real scientists) shows that not just rape, but violence in general is more likely to be perpetrated against a 'timid' target which doesn't necessarily correlate with provacative dress.
As for the whole 'Rape is about Power' meme, I really have never seen this conclusively proven by actual scientists that weren't primarily Marxist-inspired feminists. The 'Rape is about Power' meme assumes that 'rape is a tool of the patriarchy, and therefore is about controlling women', which has lots of problems when used as the mens rea for individual rapists. It is an excercise in shifting blame
Assuming you are talking about dark alleyway stranger rape, the profile for these men isn't one of men that are powerless or that have either power issues, or problems getting sex at all. They are more sexually successful with consenting partners than average, which probably displays an effort to get sex above above and beyond the average, and an overall fixation on acquiring partners.
I'd say rape for these men is about sex, and if you wanted to shift the motive somewhere else it would be variety, and 'conquest'. In all likelihood these men are caveman throwbacks that are much more strongly influenced by their lizardbrain than most people. Their base desires are more important to them than the facets of personality that are necessary to living in a 'modern' (the last 10,000 years) civilization and go to the wayside in favor of pursuing caveman delights. They try hard to slake their lusts with lots of willing women, but the desire to experience the 'thrill of the hunt' must be satisfied in other ways. To me, that doesn't speak to "power" and "control" in the way that it gets used in feminist circles where rapists are using rape as a tool of social control or have psychological issues where they want to manipulate people, in this case physically.
Also I hate to point it out but you can't get outraged at people saying "Don't act/dress slutty" (even though they are wrong about the proximate cause of rape) and then say "Don't wander drunk down a dark alley" because both are 'victim blaming'. Both are saying that the rape is caused by the imprudent actions of the victim versus the choices of the perpetrator. You are basically drawing an arbitrary line for what actions are acceptable before she has been determined to 'ask for it'.
Saying that it's okay for her to dress however she wants, so long as she doesn't flaunt at the wrong location, or behave a certain way in a public isn't really saying much at all. It's a total cop out.
Although I disagree that this 'victim blaming' correlates with excusing the perpetrator at all. In fact the 'victim blaming' thing seems to correlate rather strongly with an overall 'tough on crime' stance, including harsher punishments for the rapist.
Nice troll there, Dick Wolf.
Quote from: jeff37923;558870Nice troll there, Dick Wolf.
Still all butthurt about how bad bards suck in 3e? Don't take it out on me, I didn't make the game. If I did, I assure you that they would be pretty awesome.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;558873Still all butthurt about how bad bards suck in 3e? Don't take it out on me, I didn't make the game. If I did, I assure you that they would be pretty awesome.
Yup, troll.
There's a gigantic excluded middle between "Rapists always target women with sexually attractive clothing." and "Rape has nothing to do with sex." The truth is in the middle. Sometimes people can be so afraid of sending the wrong message, that they end up declaring things simply impossible, when, with all human behavior, there is a wide variety of psychological causes and effects.
If sexual urges can cause someone to murder a person or set fire to a building, it is possible that sexual urges can cause someone to sexually assault another. That possibility shouldn't be ignored out of fear of victim shaming.
Ah... I had forgotten (mercifully? No... no, I think the concept is sound and I haven't read the blog post in specific to say if his handling is good or bad) the blog post.
so.. Yay?! Macho Women with Guns is still, officially, in the clear re:Our Ladies of Perpetual Outrage.
So I won't feel guilty for looking for a new copy (of the original, Why would I get a shoddy D20 knockoff?).
I think we should merge this thread with the Wizard/fighter thread and re-tittle the whole thing Asshole jerkoff textwall.
Quote from: Gib;558901I think we should merge this thread with the Wizard/fighter thread and re-tittle the whole thing Asshole jerkoff textwall.
Keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter!
Quote from: Gib;558901Asshole jerkoff textwall.
I'm almost there Gib. Can you post a wall of text to finish me off?
Quote from: Ladybird;558856I don't know anything about Greg Porter, and truthfully I don't care. If he was as much of a shithead as Grim, I'd dislike him just as much. But I've never heard of him, say, statting up a rape monster, or casually dismissing people being threatened with assault.
I've got his space game, Slag!. Looks like a lot of fun.
No way!! As far as I know, Greg Porter is great. The original Macho Women With Guns is a great game that features sexy women as PCs but is in no way sexist. The PCs in MWWG are cool and awesome, and I had a great time running it.
has sexy women =/= sexistThe Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers, say, is a sexist piece of shit. Also, Richard Tucholka made a rip-off game of MWWG called "Beach Bunny Bimbos with Blasters" that is also a sexist piece of shit. (Amusing footnote: In the revised MWWG's edition, Greg Porter literally put "Richard Tucholka" as one of the monsters - as a worthless Midwest game designer with pitiful stats.)
Quote from: Spike;558832Being a BTRC fan (I own CORPS, and used to own Timelords... and some sort of Cyberpunk themed game from them too), I just found it curious that the hate stopped with Mongoose/Desborough.
Honestly, being an inoffensive satire is NOT a defense against these sorts of attacks... as evidenced by the original Dickwolf outrage (you know: Poking fun at quests that have you rescuing five dudes out of dozens in horrible monster-slavery... in order to point out how fucked up that really is).
I haven't followed the original thread regarding Desborough, so I wouldn't know about that. However, I wouldn't call the original MWWG "inoffensive". Satire, in my opinion, should be offensive. It's just offensive in a cool way, as opposed to suggesting that rape is an awesome plot twist to bring into your RPG play.
Quote from: Gib;558901Asshole jerkoff textwall.
This should be a location on The Metal Earth.
Quote from: jhkim;558907However, I wouldn't call the original MWWG "inoffensive". Satire, in my opinion, should be offensive. It's just offensive in a cool way, as opposed to suggesting that rape is an awesome plot twist to bring into your RPG play.
Not going to get into a semantics argument over the proper use or misuse of the word offensive.
Also: I thought Desborough's blog post was about fiction in general, not gaming plots?
The former I'll argue for (relucantly ) all day, while the later I'd agree is something that needs far too many caveats and conditions to begin utility vs just squick for RPGs.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;558906I'm almost there Gib. Can you post a wall of text to finish me off?
And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3: If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4: And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5: And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6: And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7: And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8: And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9: But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
10: And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
11: And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
12: And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
13: But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
14: And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
15: And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
16: And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
17: And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Quote from: J Arcane;558858The Goons at Something Awful dug up a recent post by Grim about the Tomb Raider trailer in which he suggested that "rape is an awesome plot device."
For sure it was in "Alien", even if John Hurt might disagree...
Quote from: Gib;558901I think we should merge this thread with the Wizard/fighter thread and re-tittle the whole thing Asshole jerkoff textwall.
"You are posting in a troll thread."
No u!
Quote from: jhkim;558907has sexy women =/= sexist
The Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers, say, is a sexist piece of shit. Also, Richard Tucholka made a rip-off game of MWWG called "Beach Bunny Bimbos with Blasters" that is also a sexist piece of shit. (Amusing footnote: In the revised MWWG's edition, Greg Porter literally put "Richard Tucholka" as one of the monsters - as a worthless Midwest game designer with pitiful stats.)
"This is what's called an 'in-joke', folks."
QuoteI haven't followed the original thread regarding Desborough, so I wouldn't know about that. However, I wouldn't call the original MWWG "inoffensive". Satire, in my opinion, should be offensive. It's just offensive in a cool way, as opposed to suggesting that rape is an awesome plot twist to bring into your RPG play.
Quite.
Of course one of my personal axioms is "Sarcasm is wasted on the people who most deserve it."
JG
Quote from: jhkim;558830Really, that's probably because most people aren't familiar with the original Macho Women With Guns. However, I own it and have run it several times and had a blast. It is not problematic, in my opinion, and is in fact truly satirical. It was cool playing macho powerful women characters who shoot large holes in sexist jerks.
http://jhkimrpg.livejournal.com/tag/macho%20women%20with%20guns
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/
I don't own the d20 version and so can't speak definitively. However, it seemed to me from browsing that the d20 version lost the satirical spirit of the original that actually poked fun at sexism in geek media. On the basis of the change of tone, I decided not to buy it.
D20 MWWG is definitely satirical but much less subtle: Much more Church and America bashing and for the most part a lot more of a juvenile feel: Those changes are not why I don't like it though: I don't like it because it's D20 Modern: The prime example of how "simplifications" of D20 always make it 200x more complicated!
It also has a foreword from the original creator that gives his endorsement.
CEO, Comedy Central: Take Daniel Tosh off the air (//www.change.org/petitions/ceo-comedy-central-take-daniel-tosh-off-the-air)
Quote from: Women's Right PetitionDaniel Tosh, offensive jokester extraordinaire, crossed the line a few days ago in a comedy club. During a skit in which he made jokes about rape, a young woman stood up in protest of the offensive jokes. In response, Daniel Tosh "joked" about how "funny" it would be if she were to be raped by "like five guys" right then. His jokes continued and the laughter in the club grew so loud that the young woman had to flee in fear.
This takes offensive joking to the next level. Tosh did not simply make jokes about rape, which is bad enough as it is, but he used his jokes in a threatening way that a young woman ran away to maintain her safety. He used his jokes to silence a person who was concerned with the nature of them.
This is not a man that deserves to be revered and aired daily. He is tasteless, offensive in nature, and proud of it. There should be no pride in humiliating and scaring other people. His fauxpology on Twitter was hardly sincere and only serves to show us how much he cares about himself, but not for other people. Bad things do happen, and yes, you CAN make jokes about them, but that doesn't mean you should. And it certainly doesn't mean that you get to decide if anyone should be offended by them.
This petition is to get Daniel Tosh and his show, Tosh.0, taken off the air permanently. No new episodes, no reruns, no comedy specials. Period.
Quote from: jhkim;558907No way!! As far as I know, Greg Porter is great. The original Macho Women With Guns is a great game that features sexy women as PCs but is in no way sexist. The PCs in MWWG are cool and awesome, and I had a great time running it.
has sexy women =/= sexist
The Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers, say, is a sexist piece of shit. Also, Richard Tucholka made a rip-off game of MWWG called "Beach Bunny Bimbos with Blasters" that is also a sexist piece of shit. (Amusing footnote: In the revised MWWG's edition, Greg Porter literally put "Richard Tucholka" as one of the monsters - as a worthless Midwest game designer with pitiful stats.)
Win! I'm not sure it would be a game our group would go for, but it did sound like fun, and I wouldn't mind giving it a shot at a con.
There's a difference between turning the offensiveness up to 12 to call it out, and just being offensive with your only defence being "HA HA FREE SPEECH! ART! REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM! STOP CENSORING MEEEEEEEEE". Not quite sure I could lay my finger on it - it's another of those fuzzy areas - but it's certainly there.
Quote from: Rum Cove;558960CEO, Comedy Central: Take Daniel Tosh off the air (//www.change.org/petitions/ceo-comedy-central-take-daniel-tosh-off-the-air)
I saw that article linked on the faces book. It's a poor show. Dealing with hecklers is an important skill for a stand-up comedian, and "wouldn't it be funny if five people assaulted you right now" isn't a good example. Aberdonians fucking love to heckle; I wouldn't recommend him trying the same comeback here.
I actually agree that rape shouldn't be off the table for stories - one of my favourite books, Beauty (http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/reviews/books/0-553-29527-6.html), has a very important rape scene - but it's not a guaranteed way to write a great story; it shouldn't be a go-to "Characterisation!!!" device. I just don't want to be on the same side as some people.
It's like spices. If you've got a decent curry, you can make it a great curry by adding the right spices. But add the same spices to a different curry, and you'll absolutely ruin it.
Quote from: Rum Cove;558960fauxpology
That's my new word for the day, supplanting the redoubtable sharny.
Quote from: Rum Cove;558960CEO, Comedy Central: Take Daniel Tosh off the air (//www.change.org/petitions/ceo-comedy-central-take-daniel-tosh-off-the-air)
Boo hoo.
That chick deserved every bit of ridicule she got. You don't ever, ever, ever heckle a comedian when they're on stage.
I'm also left wondering if she ever laughed at Richard Pryor, or Eddie Murphy.
Quote from: Declan MacManus;558987Boo hoo.
That chick deserved every bit of ridicule she got. You don't ever, ever, ever heckle a comedian when they're on stage.
Bullshit, he was a shit comediàn and desrved heckling. Comedians arent doing anytbhing special and deserve no special respect if incompetant or retardedly offensive
"Retardedly offensive" is pretty much Daniel Tosh's schtick, though. Was she really not expecting him to be offensive in some way, to someone, during his show? So why did she take offense to that particular rape joke, instead of any of the zillion other offensive jokes about say, mentally challenged people or old people or fat people or whatever else the guy dishes out pretty much on a daily basis?
Not saying that his reaction was right or proper or acceptable in any way, but it feels like there's a part of the story that's missing, here.
Quote from: TristramEvans;559035Bullshit, he was a shit comediàn and desrved heckling. Comedians arent doing anytbhing special and deserve no special respect if incompetant or retardedly offensive
Leaving the relatively quality of the comedian out of it: The other members of the audience paid to be there and watch Tosh (why? I have no idea), and deserve the opportunity to do so. They did not, however, pay to watch some random girl in the audience.
Presumably there comes a point of critical mass, when enough of the paying audience gets upset at the quality of the performance where heckling becomes a valuable tool to express disapproval over the service they have paid for, but one person is not it (unless its a REALLY small audience).
Thus hating on Hecklers is actually about respect for the audiences choice of how to be entertained.
A comedian known for shock insults crosses a line, that causes one person to object.
Said person heckles comedian.
Comedian heckles the person and they leave.
A day in the life of Sam Kinison, Andrew Dice Clay, et al.
But, why petition to take the show off the air? Was the joke on the show? No. Petition to have him never play that comedy club again (I can't even type that with a straight face).
Also, looking at the petition, I can't help but call bullshit. Tosh starts heckling the woman, the audience is roaring with laughter and she "fled in fear", she had to run to "maintain her safety". Bullshit. If they hadn't obviously lied, it might have lent some credence, as it stands, this is just pushing a political agenda, any lie told for the right reasons serves the goal of good, etc.
Quote from: Spike;559038Leaving the relatively quality of the comedian out of it: The other members of the audience paid to be there and watch Tosh (why? I have no idea), and deserve the opportunity to do so. They did not, however, pay to watch some random girl in the audience.
Presumably there comes a point of critical mass, when enough of the paying audience gets upset at the quality of the performance where heckling becomes a valuable tool to express disapproval over the service they have paid for, but one person is not it (unless its a REALLY small audience).
Thus hating on Hecklers is actually about respect for the audiences choice of how to be entertained.
Fuck the audience if they don't have the ethical backbone or moral rectitude to not condone that sort of grosse sexism. People who pay to see a kkk wizard give a public speech doñ't deserve to have their entertainment respected any more than a shit who pays for kiddie porn.
Koo koo.
Koo koo.
Koo koo.
Quote from: TristramEvans;559041Fuck the audience if they don't have the ethical backbone or moral rectitude to not condone that sort of grosse sexism. People who pay to see a kkk wizard give a public speech doñ't deserve to have their entertainment respected any more than a shit who pays for kiddie porn.
Draw false equivalencies much?
Quote from: Spike;559045Draw false equivalencies much?
Immorality is immorality.
Quote from: Ladybird;558967There's a difference between turning the offensiveness up to 12 to call it out, and just being offensive with your only defence being "HA HA FREE SPEECH! ART! REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM! STOP CENSORING MEEEEEEEEE". Not quite sure I could lay my finger on it - it's another of those fuzzy areas - but it's certainly there.
I have a bunch of thoughts on the subject, but it won't mean that much if you don't have the original MWWG.
For me, one key is the tone that the women PCs in MWWG are actually powerful. For example, from reading the sample text of D20 MWWG, Desborough invented a new backstory that there was a plague that killed off most men, leaving women to fill in the gap. In the original MWWG, there was no such backstory for "believability" - women are just plain better than men, and they took charge because men were incompetent, had unleashed the apocalypse, and were unable to deal with it. (Incidentally, the last straw that set off the apocalypse was exploitation of women in RPG packaging.)
Quote from: TristramEvans;559047Immorality is immorality.
You must be a saint then.
Quote from: jhkim;559052I have a bunch of thoughts on the subject, but it won't mean that much if you don't have the original MWWG.
For me, one key is the tone that the women PCs in MWWG are actually powerful. For example, from reading the sample text of D20 MWWG, Desborough invented a new backstory that there was a plague that killed off most men, leaving women to fill in the gap. In the original MWWG, there was no such backstory for "believability" - women are just plain better than men, and they took charge because men were incompetent, had unleashed the apocalypse, and were unable to deal with it. (Incidentally, the last straw that set off the apocalypse was exploitation of women in RPG packaging.)
Dude, it's a great tongue in cheek game. About this girl at this comedian's show that was a pure feminazi setup, it well known he's nothing but gutter shit. Don't try and convince me she was the Virgin Mary in this debacle. Bitches like her make it harder on ordinary women.
Facts you should know:
I haven't showered in five days.
I weight close to 500 pounds.
I like to store candy and garlic in my bodily orifices.
I am currently naked, masturbating furiously and dilating my anus in the general direction of this thread.
Anyone want a Snickers?
Quote from: Gib;559060Facts you should know:
I haven't showered in five days.
I weight close to 500 pounds.
I like to store candy and garlic in my bodily orifices.
I am currently naked, masturbating furiously and dilating my anus in the general direction of this thread.
Anyone want a Snickers?
Only if its half melty...
Only if it's the frozen ice cream bar version, it's stupid hot here "Fatboy".;)
Quote from: Declan MacManus;558658To be fair, marleycat is a tranny. That really only counts in certain circles.
I have no idea if this is true or not, but either way its a fucking retarded thing for you to say.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;559079I have no idea if this is true or not, but either way its a fucking retarded thing for you to say.
RPGPundit
I'm not, but I am fairly sure he was joking and being over the top. It's a typical Declan thing as far as I can see.
How can I get Grim to sign my books? This whole manufactured outrage horseshit brought to my attention that these books actually exist, so I felt compelled to buy them.
In any case, I think this thread has lived out its useful course. If there's some new development actually relevant to the hobby or industry, people can talk about it in some new thread.
RPGPundit