Quote from: Sweeney;362936I will defend almost any hippie indie RPG, but Nobilis? Nah. I don't really think it's all that playable. Great setting, though.

I'm sure people have come up with some bitchin' games that started with "Let's play Nobilis" and then went to some other system or just went freeform, but I think the rules + the Gm advice + the play example combine into just mush.

I seem to remember that the play example in one version (can't remember whether it was the Great White or the Little Pink) degenerated into metafiction where it turned out that the players weren't really playing a game or some toss like that. With the result that it ended up dispensing with useful play examples and became yet another microstory.

Quote from: Warthur;362957Maybe it's just that I didn't play much White Wolf games growing up, but the idea of a game where if you have to read eight friggin' chapters before you get told how the game works makes my palms itch.

Actually, Chapter 4 (beginning on page 45) is a brief overview of how the game works, complete with a summary of the system. What comes before that is essentially divided between "what is roleplaying?" and introducing the basics of the setting.

Quote from: GrimGent;362959Actually, Chapter 4 (beginning on page 45) is a brief overview of how the game works, complete with a summary of the system. What comes before that is essentially divided between "what is roleplaying?" and introducing the basics of the setting.

Still too many chapters before that for me. "What is roleplaying?", in a small press indie RPG, should cover a miniscule space - everyone buying the game doubtless has their own idea of what roleplaying is anyway. And if you're devoting more than a chapter to the "basics" of the setting, you just haven't stripped them down to the actual basics.

tangentially to this, on another forum I described Exalted as a 450 page naruto fanfic with rules very purposefully and carefully hidden somewhere within; sounds like nobilis is living down to that expectation, too.  Just without the weaboo.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;362948On this point I'll probably throw in with you.  In Nobilis, characters are in the middle of a great Byzantine scheme; in Amber, characters are caught up in a great family argument, but are otherwise on the top of the heap.  Amber, under the influence of both Zelazny and Wujcek, is very hard-headed in its approach to the game; Nobilis, under the influence of its author and production team, is very flowery in its approach (yes, pun intended).  Both are very arguably "non-games" by many people's standards in that neither rely on randomisation: Amber simply compares ranked stats and demands situational variables from the players and GM to mix up outcomes; Nobilis relies on declared realms of influence, ranked stats, and resource management to mix up outcomes.  They are decidedly different games, even though one could feasibly substitute the mechanics of one to play in the setting of the other.

!i!

I can't argue that the mechanics are quite different, and that those mechanics don't have an effect on how the game is played, but in my mind, the games are both about god-like beings and how they interact differently with reality.  Granted, it is a broad assessment, but I think it is more or less in line with the similarities you highlight with the listing of the differences.

Quote from: Warthur;362957Maybe it's just that I didn't play much White Wolf games growing up, but the idea of a game where if you have to read eight friggin' chapters before you get told how the game works makes my palms itch.

(OK, I know you can skip to the rules if you like. But I like to read books from cover to cover, in chapter order, when learning a game for the first time.)

Sure, I get that.  Which is why I don't argue about the utility of the book with people.  It's a gorgeous piece of work, bordering on art, but I can fully understand why it can be frustrating to read.  Although, reading through those non-game chapters really does give you a solid idea of how the game is to be played, infinitely moreso than a chapter of shitty game-fic you would find in a post-WW book.

Quote from: StormBringer;363016Although, reading through those non-game chapters really does give you a solid idea of how the game is to be played, infinitely moreso than a chapter of shitty game-fic you would find in a post-WW book.

Could you expand on this a bit specifically "the how the game is to be played" part.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;363030Could you expand on this a bit specifically "the how the game is to be played" part.

Regards,
David R

Maybe less 'how the game is to be played' and more 'here is the atmosphere of the game'.  It helps to pull you out of the 'I attack with my sword' mentality and into the 'I will momentarily turn the grass into steel' or 'I will twist myself between luck and time' mentality.  From the mundane actions of the physical world to the esoteric actions of those who aren't bound by the physical world.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;363002tangentially to this, on another forum I described Exalted as a 450 page naruto fanfic with rules very purposefully and carefully hidden somewhere within; sounds like nobilis is living down to that expectation, too.  Just without the weaboo.

You know, I keep trying to put the game in perspective, to discuss both the highlights and the drawbacks.  I'm even responding calmly and sincerely to Pundy.  And you just keep hurting my feelings.

No collected tales of Wraeththu for you.

!i!

Quote from: StormBringer;363042Maybe less 'how the game is to be played' and more 'here is the atmosphere of the game'.  It helps to pull you out of the 'I attack with my sword' mentality and into the 'I will momentarily turn the grass into steel' or 'I will twist myself between luck and time' mentality.  From the mundane actions of the physical world to the esoteric actions of those who aren't bound by the physical world.

Bloody hell, this sounds extremely cool.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Ian Absentia;363043You know, I keep trying to put the game in perspective, to discuss both the highlights and the drawbacks.  I'm even responding calmly and sincerely to Pundy.  And you just keep hurting my feelings.

No collected tales of Wraeththu for you.

!i!

On the one hand, I'm ever so sorry and on the other thank God.

Quote from: David R;363047Bloody hell, this sounds extremely cool.

Regards,
David R

I think you would really go for it, honestly.  It does require a group that has complete buy in for the concept, though; if you have that, it takes your games to 11.  

Good luck getting the book anymore, Amazon shows it as $195USD.

I got the book, Stormbringer. I just never understood it well enough to run a campaign. Bits and pieces come to me but I stall in certain places.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;363083I got the book, Stormbringer. I just never understood it well enough to run a campaign. Bits and pieces come to me but I stall in certain places.

Regards,
David R

Then you are $200 ahead of the game.  

Drop me a PM and we can hash out a few things, if you still have questions.

Quote from: StormBringer;363085Drop me a PM and we can hash out a few things, if you still have questions.

Thanks. Sometime this year I'll probably start running games again and this one is on the top of my list.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Warthur;362988Still too many chapters before that for me. "What is roleplaying?", in a small press indie RPG, should cover a miniscule space - everyone buying the game doubtless has their own idea of what roleplaying is anyway. And if you're devoting more than a chapter to the "basics" of the setting, you just haven't stripped them down to the actual basics.

Well, breaking down the beginning of the book, the eight pages of Chapter 1 (which I linked to earlier) describe the most central concepts and conventions in the game, Chapter 2 is the first of the nine GM advice sections presented as a series of in-character lessons, and "Chapter" 4 consists of just one page on genre assumptions. Chapter 3, a general gazetteer of the universe, could admittedly be moved back a little, but then you pretty much need that information anyway in order to create an appropriate character, unless the campaign starts out with the PCs as completely clueless about what's going on.

Hum. By the way, that "Essence of Nobilis" summary really is Chapter 5 and not 4 as I apparently wrote last night. The table of contents doesn't number the chapters. (Oh, and there's a two-page piece of intro fiction before everything else, as well.)