I'm not a massive World of Darkness fan, but have played a bit of Changeling: The Dreaming and Werewolf: The Apocalypse. To introduce some friends to role playing I've decided to run a Changeling: The Dreaming campaign for them, as of all the games I own it's the one they like the look of above all others.

But reading through the wikipedia page for Changeling: The Lost made me think it might be fun. I hate the whole player-characters-are-victims-of-abuse-and-emotionally-damaged motif (what is it with White Wolf and whininess?), but the rest of the setting seems compelling, and more game-able than Changeling: The Dreaming.

Any thoughts on the difference between the two and which is better?

As my oWoD favourites went, Changeling: The Dreaming was second only to Mage: The Ascension, but I still wouldn't hesitate at all to claim that CtL is more successfully put together all around. Personally, it's the only nWoD line which actually interests me. Despite the title, however, note that it's also far less similar to its predecessor than, say, the new Vampire, and might not appeal to all fans of CtD, especially if they used to enjoy the aspects of mundane life being poison to the fae or the emphasis on childhood as a magical age of innocence. At one point, some of those disappointed folks commonly complained on various forums about wanting to play "fairy princes and not their runaway slaves", and that their old PCs had been "turned into villains" by the interpretation of the Fae as sociopathic reality parasites. This is a different game altogether: there's little more in common with the previous take on Faerie than some leftover terminology.

I'll have to agree with GrimGent.  CtL is a far better version of the game even if it changes the scope dramatically.  The mechanics are cleared up a lot, the character power level in general I find to be in a nicer range as well and the world presentation where characters are lost ones returned trying to figure out what's happened is much more interesting from a story perspective I find.

I for one was not quite a fan of Dreaming's cling-to-childhood theme, in fact I found it vaguely disturbing. Other than that, the setting itself was OK, but then again I'm a sucker for White Wolf's supernatural politics games. I particularly loved the "commoners vs. nobles" angle.

I'm a huge fan of Lost for several reasons, but mainly because while, as you pointed out, it typically revolves around a history of abuse reaped on humans by the Gentry, it needs not be an angst-fest. While at lower levels you're typically concerned with trying to piece your life back together, and getting mixed-up with local supernatural intrigue (de rigueur for WoD old and new, as noted above), you can fight back, to a degree. You can oppose turncoat changelings ("privateers") and other agents of the Gentry, and at higher levels you can even take the fight back to Arcadia (one of the supplements has explicit mechanical support for this, can't remember which).

Also, I find character creation in Lost much more fun than in Dreaming. The splats are suitably archetypal, and will work for just about every myth under the sun. For instance, the Ogre kith can be used to build a character patterned after a Norse giant, a Japanese oni, a Scottish redcap, an American hook-handed serial killer, or anything else in the "violent legend" vein.

The subsystems for Contracts, Oaths and Pledges are also very atmospheric and Grimm fairy tale-ish. Contracts have Catches (special situations in which they can be used without cost), and Oaths and Pledges are a great tool for generating in-game quandaries (they are not to be taken lightly). I vaguely recall Dreaming having a similar system for the latter, but I don't remember details, so I can't compare.

Of course, as with all things, it's a matter of personal opinion. But I'd say Dreaming was strictly a modern fantasy game with some confusing themes (esp. the Glamour vs. Banality thing), while Lost is a considerably darker game, with a marked "personal horror" element (but which can be downplayed, should GM and players choose to do so).

Thanks. Interesting. I might try to track down the pdf.

I take it there are no mechanics associated with the "history of abuse" angle, and it's just a flavour thing? I really intensely dislike angst in any game, so I would try to downplay that aspect - maybe by just contriving it so that the PCs simply don't really remember anything that happened to them in Faery, except for vague flashbacks? Or perhaps their servitude was ambivalent? (I'm thinking here of The Wizard Knight, in case you've read it; the main character gets kidnapped to Aelfrice, the equivalent of Faery, and spends about a year there in the service of an Aelf queen, but he ends up falling in love with her.)

Both games are amazing, for very, very different reasons.

The Dreaming is eerie, fantaisist and tries to talk about this fight against Winter, the banality, mundane pessimism of the world, while Lost is more personal, speaks about the alienation that comes from being partly from the world of the Fae, and how it shapes your own psyche. The setting itself is gloomy, and evokes in tone more the tales of the Grimm brothers, with its dark forests and strange shadows pulling children off the roads than the gonzo fest of Disney's Alice in Wonderland.

Changeling: the Lost is much closer in intent and actual play to what a "changeling" of folklore is, and what the tales featuring them talk about. It is a much darker, more adult game, in both theme and tone, than the Dreaming ever could have been.

Liking the Dreaming doesn't mean you're going to like the Lost, since they are so different. If, however, you like both Vampire and the Dreaming, if you liked the background of the Malkavian elders in the former, liked the feodal parts of the latter, then chances are, the Lost was built for you.

Quote from: noisms;364024I take it there are no mechanics associated with the "history of abuse" angle, and it's just a flavour thing? I really intensely dislike angst in any game, so I would try to downplay that aspect - maybe by just contriving it so that the PCs simply don't really remember anything that happened to them in Faery, except for vague flashbacks? Or perhaps their servitude was ambivalent? (I'm thinking here of The Wizard Knight, in case you've read it; the main character gets kidnapped to Aelfrice, the equivalent of Faery, and spends about a year there in the service of an Aelf queen, but he ends up falling in love with her.)

"Abuse" can be anything here. Basically, your character was abducted by the Fae. The type of experience he had back in Arcadia is pretty much up to you, with the final outcome being that somehow, your character made it back out of it. From there, your character tries to go on. Some people will want to go back to Arcadia any way they can. Others will become depressed. Others will want revenge, etc. You don't have to go down a "angsty" path, if that's not what you're looking for. That's totally up to you and your players.

Quote from: Benoist;364038Both games are amazing, for very, very different reasons.

The Dreaming is eerie, fantaisist and tries to talk about this fight against Winter, the banality, mundane pessimism of the world, while Lost is more personal, speaks about the alienation that comes from being partly from the world of the Fae, and how it shapes your own psyche. The setting itself is gloomy, and evokes in tone more the tales of the Grimm brothers, with its dark forests and strange shadows pulling children off the roads than the gonzo fest of Disney's Alice in Wonderland.

Changeling: the Lost is much closer in intent and actual play to what a "changeling" of folklore is, and what the tales featuring them talk about. It is a much darker, more adult game, in both theme and tone, than the Dreaming ever could have been.

Liking the Dreaming doesn't mean you're going to like the Lost, since they are so different. If, however, you like both Vampire and the Dreaming, if you liked the background of the Malkavian elders in the former, liked the feodal parts of the later, then chances are, the Lost was built for you.


"Abuse" can be anything here. Basically, your character was abducted by the Fae. The type of experience he had back in Arcadia is pretty much up to you, with the final outcome being that somehow, your character made it back out of it. From there, your character tries to go on. Some people will want to go back to Arcadia any way they can. Others will become depressed. Others will want revenge, etc. You don't have to go down a "angsty" path, if that's not what you're looking for. That's totally up to you and your players.

That's good to know. Thanks, I think you sold me on it, even if we end up playing C:tD.

Quote from: noisms;364041That's good to know. Thanks, I think you sold me on it, even if we end up playing C:tD.

Glad we could help you make up your mind.

Changeling: The Lost is my favorite of the new line. Changeling: The Dreaming is not my favorite out of the old line (that's probably Mage).

The mechanics in Lost are definitely better. It's a more cohesive, coherent game. It has a wider range of character archetypes to choose from. It's themes and motifs certainly fit better with the other World of Darkness games.

However, I still like Dreaming better. While Lost has a broader range of characters, they're all still victims. With Dreaming, you may not has such a great range of character archetypes, but you can choose a more varied backstory.

And I like Dreaming's Chimera. It allows me to build stuff. Wildly incoherent, improbably stuff. Right there in the middle of the campaign.

Lost is a good game, but my money is still on Dreaming.

Seanchai

Quote from: noisms;364024I really intensely dislike angst in any game, so I would try to downplay that aspect - maybe by just contriving it so that the PCs simply don't really remember anything that happened to them in Faery, except for vague flashbacks?

That's already how it works by the book: a changeling's Wyrd rating determines how much they remember about the time in Faerie, so starting characters only tend to have a few blurred memories and occasional nightmares about what really took place over there. And as Benoist mentioned, the "abuse", the Durance, simply means that something less than pleasant (from filling out endless paperwork to spending a century as a statue to being drafted into goblin wars as a soldier to undergoing bizarre medical experiments) happened to the PCs before they eventually managed to escape back to Earth. Those who came to enjoy the experience or lacked the strength to break free still remain in the service of the Fae, and some of them have even been deliberately sent to the mortal world to act as "loyalist" agents, moles and spies among the fugitive changelings.