Quote from: Aos;362827Dice- the swine don't use them.

Well they do on rare occasions but never, ever to do anything so gauche as to hit a target score or higher/lower.  They simply throw them as handfuls of markers and "count successes".

*spit*

Quote from: thedungeondelver;362870Well they do on rare occasions but never, ever to do anything so gauche as to hit a target score or higher/lower.  They simply throw them as handfuls of markers and "count successes".

*spit*

Only when Jenga isn't available.  

Quote from: StormBringer;362876Only when Jenga isn't available.  

Or when they're too busy affecting disdain to use their hands for rock-paper-scissors.

For the record, rock-paper-scissors -- or more accurately, odds-or-evens -- works great when you're picking a game up on the fly.  It's one of the options my old Traveller and CoC groups would use if we decided to play and no one had dice available.

!i!

Quote from: StormBringer;362707The only thing I can tell you about Nobilis is that I have a copy with signatures by the artists from the last GenCon in Milwaukee.  

I'll see your artist signatures and raise you a James Wallis signature.

That's the only thing i can tell you about it too and i've tried reading it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;362898I'll see your artist signatures and raise you a James Wallis signature.

That's the only thing i can tell you about it too and i've tried reading it.

Not only did that motherfucker sink my barge, he refused to sign my copy out of some sense of British modesty or something.

I will have my revenge, James Wallis!!

It's pretty fun to play, really, once you kind of leave the idea of dungeon-crawl, class and level play a bit behind you.  It is actually pretty well suited for something sandbox-like.  Honestly, the only rules you really, really need are all in approximately the middle, where you create your Noble, your Chancel, and to a lesser degree, your Imperator.  So, chapters 9 through 11 are the really important ones, and chapter 13 demonstrates the conflict resolution.  The rest of the (expensive) book is pretty much pap, and I can understand complaints regarding that amount of extra material getting in the way of playing the game.

Quote from: StormBringer;362911Honestly, the only rules you really, really need are all in approximately the middle, where you create your Noble, your Chancel, and to a lesser degree, your Imperator.  So, chapters 9 through 11 are the really important ones, and chapter 13 demonstrates the conflict resolution.  The rest of the (expensive) book is pretty much pap...

I had the pages of my LPB marked with little color-coded Post-It flags.  As I stated previously, I would've loved a stripped-for-speed version that covers what you've cited above, but I think Warthur's earlier points were to the mark (that such a move might undermine the artistic vision of the whole game -- which, amusingly, might make it more amenable to the likes of Pundy).  GrimGent mentioned the quick reference .PDFs that were hosted at the GoO website, but heaven knows what's become of those.  I think compiling them into a sort of player's book would've been a great way to go.

As far as the sandbox goes, it really was pretty wide open.  My best game was centered around gathering a group of out-of-work gods from different pantheons to take over an abandoned and run-down chancel and see what they could make of it.  By golly I loved that scenario.

!i!

There's a good game to be had from the premise, for sure. Well, without all the angst and doominess, anyhow. But both Nobilis and Scion fall short of what i want from a modern Gods game.

To be fair, i'm not really sure what i want from a modern Gods game, but i know what i don't want (if that makes sense).

Quote from: One Horse Town;362924To be fair, i'm not really sure what i want from a modern Gods game, but i know what i don't want (if that makes sense).

Maybe a bit more of this?

I will defend almost any hippie indie RPG, but Nobilis? Nah. I don't really think it's all that playable. Great setting, though.

I'm sure people have come up with some bitchin' games that started with "Let's play Nobilis" and then went to some other system or just went freeform, but I think the rules + the Gm advice + the play example combine into just mush.

Quote from: StormBringer;362867Exactly.

I don't honestly see a whole lot of difference in tone between the two games.

Then you aren't paying attention.
Both are diceless, and Nobilis clearly tried to copy (or more accurately, imitate and warp) some elements of Amber, but the essence of the two games both mechanically and aesthetically couldn't be more different.

RPGPundit

QuoteWell they do on rare occasions but never, ever to do anything so gauche as to hit a target score or higher/lower. They simply throw them as handfuls of markers and "count successes".

*spit*

Are we talking about White-Wolf thespians or indie-gamers?  Because indie designers almost always demand a resolution system in place of "winging it."

Quote from: RPGPundit;362942Both are diceless, and Nobilis clearly tried to copy (or more accurately, imitate and warp) some elements of Amber...

Le sigh.  No, but whatever.  This is one of those topics where you just Make Shit Up™.

Quote...but the essence of the two games both mechanically and aesthetically couldn't be more different.

On this point I'll probably throw in with you.  In Nobilis, characters are in the middle of a great Byzantine scheme; in Amber, characters are caught up in a great family argument, but are otherwise on the top of the heap.  Amber, under the influence of both Zelazny and Wujcek, is very hard-headed in its approach to the game; Nobilis, under the influence of its author and production team, is very flowery in its approach (yes, pun intended).  Both are very arguably "non-games" by many people's standards in that neither rely on randomisation: Amber simply compares ranked stats and demands situational variables from the players and GM to mix up outcomes; Nobilis relies on declared realms of influence, ranked stats, and resource management to mix up outcomes.  They are decidedly different games, even though one could feasibly substitute the mechanics of one to play in the setting of the other.

!i!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;362584Ah, I didn't mean to imply that it was a simple gatefold saddle stitch, like the original Traveller "LBB"s.  It was a hardcover, digest-sized, spine-bound affair, easily a couple hundred pages, and really poorly organised.  But I really enjoyed its quaintness at the time.  It had something of the raw enthusiasm that I recall from the earliest 1e AD&D books.

Your observations and comments on Borgstrom's writing and the production of the GWB are spot on.

Thanks. Nobilis is one of my big gaming disappointments. I quite liked the little pink book - it came out before indie games made digest-sized rulebooks fashionable again, and I'd never seen an RPG in such a convenient size before. I knew it was badly organised, but I was willing to give it a pass, since it was obviously a small press effort and I figured they just couldn't afford an editor.

Then Hogshead brought out the GWB and I realised, no, it's meant to be that confusing...

Quote from: StormBringer;362911Honestly, the only rules you really, really need are all in approximately the middle, where you create your Noble, your Chancel, and to a lesser degree, your Imperator.  So, chapters 9 through 11 are the really important ones, and chapter 13 demonstrates the conflict resolution.  The rest of the (expensive) book is pretty much pap, and I can understand complaints regarding that amount of extra material getting in the way of playing the game.

Maybe it's just that I didn't play much White Wolf games growing up, but the idea of a game where if you have to read eight friggin' chapters before you get told how the game works makes my palms itch.

(OK, I know you can skip to the rules if you like. But I like to read books from cover to cover, in chapter order, when learning a game for the first time.)