Quote from: Brooding Paladin on June 15, 2022, 01:04:00 PM
She's managed to turn it into yet another appearance opportunity as she has announced she will address these things on an Instagram Live feed tomorrow at 4pm PST.

Best thing that could happen would be for absolutely no one to show up.

I wonder if she's banned from Twitch due to her companies poor treatment of contractors and staff. 

Also, there's a "live" function on instagram apparently.

Quote from: amacris on June 14, 2022, 12:36:27 AM

Quote from: Crusader X on June 13, 2022, 09:58:03 PM
Was she part of Zak S's crew?   I think I remember her name mentioned in the Vornheim book.

Yes, Satine was previously an adult entertainer who played D&D with Zak S. She then became one of the stars on The Escapist's I Hit It With My Axe show. She springboarded from that into celebrity dungeonmastering and eventually joined WOTC alongside a couple of former Escapist colleagues as a community manager before launching her current biz. I was the executive producer of IHIWMA. She was absolutely lovely to work with. The descriptions of her online behavior certainly don't match my anecdotal experiences with her at all.

That's the impression I got. She does seem to have a monumentally bad taste in friend groups though.

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 15, 2022, 11:46:27 AM

Quote from: Melan on June 15, 2022, 04:49:31 AM
The only real moral is: "D&D should have been gatekept better." 

D&D has been a credible gatekeeper for the hobby because most of the shitty wokesters stay with it instead of trying the other, better games in the hobby.

Good observation. If you're actually interested in the hobby, and not the fluff surrounding it, you'll move on to better games.

TBH, I'm not going to criticize her (or anyone) for working in the adult entertainment industry.

But not paying freelancers (and other alleged monetary anomalies) is exceedingly poor form. I say this as a freelance artist and I've experienced being ripped off.

And paying by the word for writers seems a bit penny-pinching too.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 15, 2022, 07:11:05 PM
TBH, I'm not going to criticize her (or anyone) for working in the adult entertainment industry.

But not paying freelancers (and other alleged monetary anomalies) is exceedingly poor form. I say this as a freelance artist and I've experienced being ripped off.

And paying by the word for writers seems a bit penny-pinching too.

  Thing is....do we know for certain they violated agreements with regard to payment?  I see lots of allegations about contract disputes and talking mean, but it does seem like there would a law suit or at least an attempt to seek a judgement if they were outright not paying people.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 15, 2022, 07:35:19 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 15, 2022, 07:11:05 PM
TBH, I'm not going to criticize her (or anyone) for working in the adult entertainment industry.

But not paying freelancers (and other alleged monetary anomalies) is exceedingly poor form. I say this as a freelance artist and I've experienced being ripped off.

And paying by the word for writers seems a bit penny-pinching too.

  Thing is....do we know for certain they violated agreements with regard to payment?  I see lots of allegations about contract disputes and talking mean, but it does seem like there would a law suit or at least an attempt to seek a judgement if they were outright not paying people.

Yeah, these are all 'alleged' incidents. Because technically you'd have to prove whether you got paid or not in a labor court (or some such equivalent).

But one further point I'd say on freelancer pay. Unless it's a large amount of cash it's not really worth the hassle of going through the court system. As you'll end up with nout' after a lawyer's fee. But if it's a large sum then absolutely sue the shit out of them.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 15, 2022, 07:41:03 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 15, 2022, 07:35:19 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 15, 2022, 07:11:05 PM
TBH, I'm not going to criticize her (or anyone) for working in the adult entertainment industry.

But not paying freelancers (and other alleged monetary anomalies) is exceedingly poor form. I say this as a freelance artist and I've experienced being ripped off.

And paying by the word for writers seems a bit penny-pinching too.

  Thing is....do we know for certain they violated agreements with regard to payment?  I see lots of allegations about contract disputes and talking mean, but it does seem like there would a law suit or at least an attempt to seek a judgement if they were outright not paying people.

Yeah, these are all 'alleged' incidents. Because technically you'd have to prove whether you got paid or not in a labor court (or some such equivalent).

But one further point I'd say on freelancer pay. Unless it's a large amount of cash it's not really worth the hassle of going through the court system. As you'll end up with nout' after a lawyer's fee. But if it's a large sum then absolutely sue the shit out of them.

  In the USA (in many states) you can file a small claim, without really needing a lawyer as so long as the amount is under a specific sum, a judge will take a look at it. If nothing else, they could post copies of actual agreements if they wanted to make sure their claims have some backing past a conversation.   I do not doubt these two could have manipulated people with their "fame" and said later the people "misunderstood"...but if you are taking on contract work...with no contract...well....

Quote from: oggsmash on June 15, 2022, 07:47:08 PM
but if you are taking on contract work...with no contract...well....

That's very true... No contract you've got yourself a problem.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 15, 2022, 07:47:08 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 15, 2022, 07:41:03 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 15, 2022, 07:35:19 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 15, 2022, 07:11:05 PM
TBH, I'm not going to criticize her (or anyone) for working in the adult entertainment industry.

But not paying freelancers (and other alleged monetary anomalies) is exceedingly poor form. I say this as a freelance artist and I've experienced being ripped off.

And paying by the word for writers seems a bit penny-pinching too.

  Thing is....do we know for certain they violated agreements with regard to payment?  I see lots of allegations about contract disputes and talking mean, but it does seem like there would a law suit or at least an attempt to seek a judgement if they were outright not paying people.

Yeah, these are all 'alleged' incidents. Because technically you'd have to prove whether you got paid or not in a labor court (or some such equivalent).

But one further point I'd say on freelancer pay. Unless it's a large amount of cash it's not really worth the hassle of going through the court system. As you'll end up with nout' after a lawyer's fee. But if it's a large sum then absolutely sue the shit out of them.

  In the USA (in many states) you can file a small claim, without really needing a lawyer as so long as the amount is under a specific sum, a judge will take a look at it. If nothing else, they could post copies of actual agreements if they wanted to make sure their claims have some backing past a conversation.   I do not doubt these two could have manipulated people with their "fame" and said later the people "misunderstood"...but if you are taking on contract work...with no contract...well....

Once upon a time a man's word was a contract, and even then there were conartists.

Ok i had never heard of this satine woman before. I am not into  DnD or WoD style games so maybe that's why.

Anyhooo, I looked her up and basically saw she was a former porn star,  (I have no problem with that, and respect some of them.) who is now slightly famous in some game circles.

Didn't really feel like making a study of this drama, saw some stuff about tattoos, employee abuse and cheating, etc. 

All I want to know is did she and/or her SO actually create any significant game material to any degree or were they just basically hot looking people creating a brand while others did the actual work of making game material?

I'm mildly curious but not realy enough to Wade thru the drama around  this case.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 15, 2022, 07:41:03 PMYeah, these are all 'alleged' incidents.

Alleged by some people in a very toxic community. It's not the first time they've gone after Satine. The mistake was to apologise. That just starts a feeding frenzy.

Quote from: Jam The MF on June 14, 2022, 05:57:11 PM
Average human beings got elevated to a status they were certainly not worthy of; they became arrogant and condescending, treated people like shit, got called out for doing so, and then their careers crashed and burned?  Ok.  I think I understand what happened here.

Below average I think. I get the impression she's low-average and he's well below average, but maybe that's my male white knighting impetus.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 14, 2022, 11:52:18 AM
"I Hate You! Don't Leave me!" is a fantastic book to read for dealing with partners with BPD. 

I had a gf with severe BPD. "I Hate You! Don't Leave me!"  describes her behaviour EXACTLY. When I pushed her out the door she was both 'leaving me' and trying to have sex with me AT THE SAME TIME - I recall her complaining that my refusal to have 'break up sex' with her meant I was 'not a real man'

As for Satine Phoenix, I just think WoTC's 'Gamma males' should have done a lot more due diligence before hiring her. But I take Amacris' point that she comes across pleasant enough. It's not like eg Jessica Price where you're obviously putting a piranha in your pool.

Quote from: Battlemaster on June 15, 2022, 10:31:03 PM
All I want to know is did she and/or her SO actually create any significant game material to any degree or were they just basically hot looking people creating a brand while others did the actual work of making game material?

I'm mildly curious but not realy enough to Wade thru the drama around  this case.

The answer is "not a lot."  They were more the hood ornaments while others ran around being the engine.  She was more on the speaking tour segment, doing podcasts, actual plays, and youtubes after being a Community Manager for WOTC.  At a minimum she seemed expert in creating a cult of personality around her.  In terms of her output, from my experience at least (not like I've read everything she's ever done), her content contributions are pedestrian at best.

He started Apotheosis Studios which intended to publish.  Previously, he was a self-published novelist (sci-fi, I think) and has a book or two to his name.  In terms of their overall contributions to published material, it was just starting to happen.  I think they put out The Red Opera but the Sirens: Battle of the Bards looked to be "their" best effort yet.  Only it was mostly an assembled band of freelancers that they abused, didn't pay, and claimed their work was so poor they had to fix everything.

The most I know about Satine besides her community role was that she was the cover model for Troll Lord Games' 5E version of Amazing Adventures.