I like rules lite games.
However, one-page-rules style games like Risus are not that good if you ask me. They lack the features I think any good RPG needs.
1. Character Stats
2. Experience advancement
3. Skills
4. Bestiary/NPC enemies list
5. Gear.
My example for a fun RPG that is super minimal, but has all of those above features is Pocket Fantasy. At its most basic it is just four pages long. If you want all the gear and extra classes, then it's 8 pages. Either way, it's a great game that is simple to learn and you can play it in just minutes. Aka, your session zero could be just a few minutes.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/189191 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/189191)
TLDR. How small can a good game be? For me, I need 10-50 pages at least.
I don't much enjoy a campaign that last less than about 50 hours of play time, and would prefer they go to 100+ hours. Rule-lite just doesn't get it done for me with that kind of length. I don't mind "simple" where I can get it, but not to the point of shaving off tons of options to compress into a tiny space.
There is a huge difference between having no written rule and having no details.
The largest difference is Trust.
Why do I feel like you're the author of the game you mentioned, and this is a stealth shill?
I don't think your requirements are necessary. Some of my favorite games, like Marvel Super Heroes, have advancement rules that might as well not exist, they're so pointless. They do allow alternate methods of advancement, like stunts in the case of MSH, but those are the kind of things you can do without explicit rules, as well. And for a bestiary, I can replicate or make up monsters off the top of my head, very easily in a minimalist game. I can only see a bestiary being useful for inspiration or new ideas (rare), or to accompany a more rules-heavy game where it's much harder to improvise. Same with gear, to an even greater extent. And it's a roleplaying game. Characters should be primarily defined by personalities and history, not stats. So I don't see a broad array of stats as essential. Skills are similar. I think how skills are handled in Amber, Theatrix, Unknown Armies, Over the Edge, Fudge, and other games are just fine.
I like both rules light and heavier games. They appeal in different ways, and they require very different ways of handling the game. Games with too many trinkets end up putting excessive focus on the mechanics, and if not careful it can start to feel more like a board game. On the other end, games that rely heavily on narrative can start to feel detached from a sense of consequence. The important thing is to manage both.
I have the opposite problem. I've become disillusioned with rules medium and rules heavy games due to rules bloat.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 22, 2022, 10:35:01 AM
TLDR. How small can a good game be? For me, I need 10-50 pages at least.
I don't think page-count counts for anything. If a game uses a single D6 for all its rolls, that is too LITE for me. There isn't enough game mechanic there to be had.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 22, 2022, 10:43:41 AM
I don't much enjoy a campaign that last less than about 50 hours of play time, and would prefer they go to 100+ hours. Rule-lite just doesn't get it done for me with that kind of length. I don't mind "simple" where I can get it, but not to the point of shaving off tons of options to compress into a tiny space.
There are three campaign types:
Last Mega-Dungeon Survivor
Zero to Hero
Ship Cruise Buying Spree Amongst the Stars.
I wouldn't count game lengths as being rules LITE or not.
Paradox is probably too strong of a word. One benefit for lite versions of things is ease of access and/or lack of a steep learning curve. One benefit of additional mechanics, robust class descriptions and features, and great artwork and atmosphere is that it helps with imagination. Both players and game masters benefit.
I would regularly see new people post all the time on Reddit about their struggles. Cannot get people to stop looking at their phones. Players won't roleplay. Players do not come back after the first session. Maybe it is a little confirmation bias, but it seemed they would often reference rules lite systems.
FATE, game is pretty much whatever you can bullshit your GM into letting you do.
Quote from: FingerRod on April 22, 2022, 03:25:28 PM
I would regularly see new people post all the time on Reddit about their struggles. Cannot get people to stop looking at their phones. Players won't roleplay. Players do not come back after the first session. Maybe it is a little confirmation bias, but it seemed they would often reference rules lite systems.
Before any session zero with players, I have them all agree to a social contract. The number one reason to get together is for role-play after all, so the social contract is not an issue. If it is an issue with a player, then guess what?
For me alot of "rules lite" RPGs are not RPGs at all really and more just storytelling with some dice now and then. If even that.
Some are little more than a map with some location names and not much else.
These put all the work on the shoulders of the DM or players.
Others are just oracles for either DMless play, or in some cases more creative storygaming in the positive sense.
A perennial Reddit favorite, Lasers and Feelings is not a RPG. At best it is as diverting as a game of checkers.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 22, 2022, 03:05:05 PM
I wouldn't count game lengths as being rules LITE or not.
There's not much of a direct link. I can see how it wouldn't apply to many gamers. For me, there are enough indirect effects that the chances of a rules lite gaming working for me in a long campaign are effectively nil. If for no other reason, since I'm a bit of a system junky, a certain amount of rulings will turn into house rules, which means that however rules lite it started, it isn't going to still be rules lite halfway through. Given that, I might as well cut out the ramp up period.
Quote from: Ocule on April 22, 2022, 04:25:16 PM
FATE, game is pretty much whatever you can bullshit your GM into letting you do.
I second this. I ran it twice and both my players and I thought that every interaction was too undefined.
A game should have as many rules as necessary, and as few as possible. Rules-lite is a minimalist philosophy that insufficiently constrains the game and is effectively a story game while the opposite is an over constrained board game. Character stats are good for adjudication if a character can do something or not. Advancement is necessary so that the character sheet may reflect the characters development although in need not be xp to gain advancement based, as train a skill or go on a quest for knowledge works better for some settings. Skills often devolve into push buttons for progress so physical stat plus justification of why the character knows a skill is a viable alternative. Bestiaries are good for a lore integration but build a monster is better for scratch building worlds. When it comes to gear, if it is non magical, the player and GM out to be able to workout what is available and when in has a mechanical effect instead of having the one true shopping lists, although references for utility and power of key items are helpful.
I like to be on the lighter side of the middle, quick, clear, and concise rules that define what is possible while avoiding pouring over the book and character sheet to make a decision. I do not want a story-game or a board-game when I am looking to play a roleplaying game, but too many of the former masquerade as the latter and fail at being something they are not.
One page? Psssh. Try one word:
https://riverhousegames.itch.io/we-are-but-worms-a-one-word-rpg
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 22, 2022, 10:35:01 AM
I like rules lite games.
However, one-page-rules style games like Risus are not that good if you ask me. They lack the features I think any good RPG needs.
1. Character Stats
2. Experience advancement
3. Skills
4. Bestiary/NPC enemies list
5. Gear.
My example for a fun RPG that is super minimal, but has all of those above features is Pocket Fantasy. At its most basic it is just four pages long. If you want all the gear and extra classes, then it's 8 pages. Either way, it's a great game that is simple to learn and you can play it in just minutes. Aka, your session zero could be just a few minutes.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/189191 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/189191)
TLDR. How small can a good game be? For me, I need 10-50 pages at least.
Only character stats are essential.
Experience and advancement is of no use to players who don't have the time to play RPGs regularly, and just want to do a one shot. For them a very light game with a short page count is ideal.
Skills aren't even essential for a rules medium game.
Sample enemies can be useful, but that of course assumes that the main point of the game is to fight enemies. I notice that you didn't say anything about combat mechanics being essential. Do you take it for granted?
Gear is something that some players hate. They prefer it to just be assumed that you have the necessary equipment to do what your character wants to do.
Quote from: Pat on April 22, 2022, 02:46:08 PM
Why do I feel like you're the author of the game you mentioned, and this is a stealth shill?
I'm not. I'm actually an airplane mechanic, not a writer.
What I am is getting older and do not have time for complex games, plus I play mostly with my wife. She's not a gamer, so a 650 page Pathfinder game rulebook is out of the question.
I also like Tiny-D6, and Mini-D6 Bare Bones edition. Our current game is Dingeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition.
My favorite type of rules lite is a stripped-down version of Basic Roleplaying (BRP):
Ask players to come up with a character concept. Then give each player an amount of points for building stats, or let them roll if you prefer.
Likewise give a specified amount to build your skills, the amount of skill points/stat points should reflect the power level of the game. You can cap starting skills at, say, 90% if you like (again depending on power level).
For the actual game, the only "complication" I like to keep is the critical hit table, to add a bit flavor to combat. I also use the resistance roll table every now and then. Everything else is just normal percentile stat rolls or skill rolls.
I think Searchers of the Unknown is a good 1-page ruleset, with a clever premise hook.
It utilizes existing mechanics to its benefit, but being so simple, it would be a doddle to make one's own stuff for it: a good basis for many spin-off genres.
Is it too rules-lite? Maybe, but it's a good pick up game.
Quote from: Trond on April 23, 2022, 09:49:28 AM
My favorite type of rules lite is a stripped-down version of Basic Roleplaying (BRP):
Ask players to come up with a character concept. Then give each player an amount of points for building stats, or let them roll if you prefer.
Likewise give a specified amount to build your skills, the amount of skill points/stat points should reflect the power level of the game. You can cap starting skills at, say, 90% if you like (again depending on power level).
For the actual game, the only "complication" I like to keep is the critical hit table, to add a bit flavor to combat. I also use the resistance roll table every now and then. Everything else is just normal percentile stat rolls or skill rolls.
Is that BRG the Chaosium rules?
One oddity that I like to use is a simple game called Freeform Universal. It really only has one dice roll. A 1D6 chart with three successful results and three failures. One of each has an secondary benefit, and one of each has a secondary failure. You roll 1D6, and as many additional 1D6's as you can by convincing the GM that your character has an advantage, and subtract the same for the opponent's situation. Pick the best result.
I don't use it as a game by itself. Instead, I use it as a GM tool for situations that we want to get over and done now, and move on.
Example: A massive battle. I'm an experienced commander, and I have a spy who relayed key enemy plans to me, but the enemy fleet is larger. So instead of 3D6, I roll 2D6. I get a 3 and a 4. I pick the 4, which means we win. Nothing more. Nothing less. Had I only gotten the single roll I would get a 3. That's still a win, but something bad happens too.
B/X. My favorite D&D, but I like adding some feats, skills and options. I wrote my own version to my tastes. The "PHB" is about 60 pages and has everything I need in this regard.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/229046/Dark-Fantasy-Basic--Players-Guide?src=newest_recent&coverSizeTestPhase2=true&word-variants=true
Also, Knave would be great with a few additional skills and options IMO.
I enjoy AD&D, 5e, and especially the RC, but overall I'd prefer something simpler.
(Curiously, fans of all these three systems see them as "rules light", which is not the case IMO)
Mork Borg is too rules light, which didn't offset me not being a fan of the layout. It's one of the rare cut my losses books that needed to go with spring cleaning.
A B/X level complexity with 5E's underlying mechanics to get rid of the old wonkiness would probably be good for what I look to OSR for.
The simplified OpenD6 variants do look interesting as well
Quote from: Palleon on April 24, 2022, 03:13:48 PM
A B/X level complexity with 5E's underlying mechanics to get rid of the old wonkiness would probably be good for what I look to OSR for.
This is some kind of holy grail IMO (not the ONLY one, of course). Since I already pimped my own version above, here is another interesting take on the subject:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/12/table-tools-booklets-and-into-unknown.html
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 23, 2022, 09:51:42 PM
Quote from: Trond on April 23, 2022, 09:49:28 AM
My favorite type of rules lite is a stripped-down version of Basic Roleplaying (BRP):
Ask players to come up with a character concept. Then give each player an amount of points for building stats, or let them roll if you prefer.
Likewise give a specified amount to build your skills, the amount of skill points/stat points should reflect the power level of the game. You can cap starting skills at, say, 90% if you like (again depending on power level).
For the actual game, the only "complication" I like to keep is the critical hit table, to add a bit flavor to combat. I also use the resistance roll table every now and then. Everything else is just normal percentile stat rolls or skill rolls.
Is that BRG the Chaosium rules?
Yes, I have used the Golden BRP book, or sometimes Stormbringer (which is very similar but high power fantasy)
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on April 23, 2022, 09:06:12 PM
I think Searchers of the Unknown is a good 1-page ruleset, with a clever premise hook.
It utilizes existing mechanics to its benefit, but being so simple, it would be a doddle to make one's own stuff for it: a good basis for many spin-off genres.
Is it too rules-lite? Maybe, but it's a good pick up game.
Searchers is a great call out. One page, yet you could pick up B1 or B2 and run them probably 95% without conversion. And I'm only leaving 5% on the table because I cannot recall how Searchers handled saves.
That only works if you already know how to play D&D. It's not a complete system.
Quote from: FingerRod on April 24, 2022, 06:11:23 PM
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on April 23, 2022, 09:06:12 PM
I think Searchers of the Unknown is a good 1-page ruleset, with a clever premise hook.
It utilizes existing mechanics to its benefit, but being so simple, it would be a doddle to make one's own stuff for it: a good basis for many spin-off genres.
Is it too rules-lite? Maybe, but it's a good pick up game.
Searchers is a great call out. One page, yet you could pick up B1 or B2 and run them probably 95% without conversion. And I'm only leaving 5% on the table because I cannot recall how Searchers handled saves.
Roll 1d20 under your level + 4 or 5, depending on the version.
https://sites.google.com/site/wizardinabottle/searchers-of-the-unknown
Searchers of the Unknown is my go-to for pick up games. It's trivial to teach, trivial to remember, and it's mostly compatible with B/X. And back when it came out, it inspired dozens of riffs, including some with spellcasting, mutant wasteland variations, or even 70s funk versions.
Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 22, 2022, 10:51:59 PM
One page? Psssh. Try one word:
https://riverhousegames.itch.io/we-are-but-worms-a-one-word-rpg
don't, just don't
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/364508/Dont--The-worlds-first-universal-roleplaying-game-called-Dont
Quote from: Pat on April 24, 2022, 07:23:32 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on April 24, 2022, 06:11:23 PM
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on April 23, 2022, 09:06:12 PM
I think Searchers of the Unknown is a good 1-page ruleset, with a clever premise hook.
It utilizes existing mechanics to its benefit, but being so simple, it would be a doddle to make one's own stuff for it: a good basis for many spin-off genres.
Is it too rules-lite? Maybe, but it's a good pick up game.
Searchers is a great call out. One page, yet you could pick up B1 or B2 and run them probably 95% without conversion. And I'm only leaving 5% on the table because I cannot recall how Searchers handled saves.
Roll 1d20 under your level + 4 or 5, depending on the version.
https://sites.google.com/site/wizardinabottle/searchers-of-the-unknown
Searchers of the Unknown is my go-to for pick up games. It's trivial to teach, trivial to remember, and it's mostly compatible with B/X. And back when it came out, it inspired dozens of riffs, including some with spellcasting, mutant wasteland variations, or even 70s funk versions.
YES! Thanks, Pat. Very in-line with the skills checks but using a constant instead of the AC. Swimming, stealth and jumping all work great. I wonder if that was first used in Searchers to taken somewhere else. At any rate, it is a fantastic mechanic.
Quote from: migo on April 24, 2022, 06:57:17 PM
That only works if you already know how to play D&D. It's not a complete system.
Pretty sure you were replying about Searchers of the Unknown. If not, my apologies.
I think you and I are in agreement. Most people need a working knowledge of D&D/TTRPGs to really leverage rules lite games. Anecdotally, I have seen new players/DMs struggle when starting out with them. I believe new players benefit from something more complete to stimulate the imagination.
While you would need to red line a few rooms/obstacles tied to ability scores, the namesake module B1 is fantastic. With the DM advice given in the module, coupled with the need to key the dungeon, it is a pretty complete package for someone new. With the right module, or a DM with experience, I do think Searchers is complete. So we may differ there a little.
However, and I have asked this of other rules lite games, such as Into the Odd...has anyone actually played a long-term campaign?
QuoteI believe new players benefit from something more complete to stimulate the imagination.
Yes. I think one of the strengths of class and race based games is as you're reading up the race and class descriptions, you're already learning something about the world. When you read that a Cleric has 'turn undead', you learn that there are undead in the game, and more specifically zombies, skeletons, ghouls, ghasts, wights, wraiths, vampires, ghosts and liches. When you read that a Ranger has an attack and damage bonus against giants, ogres, trolls, goblins, hobgoblins and orcs, you learn there are those kind of monsters that you'll be facing.
It's an example of
show, don't tell.
Barbarians of Lemuria is about as light as I like to go, I like the death metal vibe of Mork Borg but it is indeed to light to be of any real use as a game system in my opinion.
Tiny D6.
Quote from: Batjon on May 02, 2022, 08:05:30 PM
Tiny D6.
I'm still waiting for Mecha vs Monsters: Evolved. The kickstarter was updated on April 28, but still no commercial PDF to buy.
I backed it and have the PDF. It actually looks amazing.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 02, 2022, 09:28:52 PM
Quote from: Batjon on May 02, 2022, 08:05:30 PM
Tiny D6.
I'm still waiting for Mecha vs Monsters: Evolved. The kickstarter was updated on April 28, but still no commercial PDF to buy.
I'm just hoping that Mecha vs Monsters Evolved now includes an experience advancement system.
Yup, 1st edition was just pilots and mechs. You never got better characters. You could fudge this using Tiny Frontiers spaceship game and borrow that, but it's not in Mecha vs Monsters.
The base mechanic for Amber Diceless is pretty simple and if one would strip away a lot of Zelazny's setting material the rules could be very short.
I love OD&D and think it's pretty rules lite overall, especially if the supplements are ignored. Someone mentioned B/X and that is probably a better example than OD&D simply because it's organized better.
I find that if too much is stripped away I don't have much long-term interest in a game. It has to have elements which can be acquired as characters advance, and anything less than that only works for one-shots in my experience
Quote from: finarvyn on May 04, 2022, 08:49:31 AM
The base mechanic for Amber Diceless is pretty simple and if one would strip away a lot of Zelazny's setting material the rules could be very short.
I love OD&D and think it's pretty rules lite overall, especially if the supplements are ignored. Someone mentioned B/X and that is probably a better example than OD&D simply because it's organized better.
I find that if too much is stripped away I don't have much long-term interest in a game. It has to have elements which can be acquired as characters advance, and anything less than that only works for one-shots in my experience
I mentioned Basic Fantasy, which is essentially B/X D&D with a few modern fixes. Mainly ascending armor class, and races are separate from classes. Aka, an elf is not a class in its own right.
It's a really good deal. It has to be. It's FREE. Even the paper books are printed at cost, so the main rulebook is only $5. Shipping will cost more.
It might be considered rules lite by some people, but I feel it's a traditional, full sized game. Just a simpler one.
https://www.basicfantasy.org/ (https://www.basicfantasy.org/)
Yeah, I wouldn't consider Basic Fantasy to be rules lite.
This discussion has me pondering, is a universal resolution mechanic with modifiers too rules lite? Does the game need player and GM options to make it more engaging?
I haven't done too many rules-lite games. I've read some of the PbtA and find them to be lacking for my play style. Also, with all the codified "moves" it seems less "lite" and more regimented.
A game like Savage Worlds has a pretty simple base mechanic, but all the options available maybe pushes it to rules medium?
On the other extreme, a game like Shadowrun, with really whats a basic mechanic (Stat+Skill dice pool) goes too far with a sub system for just about everything.
I personally lean towards Savage Worlds OSR, or percentile systems as the Goldilocks zone for me.
"Rules lite games that are to lite?"
We haven't directly explored the "too lite" for what question? There are games that aren't meant for long-term campaign play. A few people seem to have used this as there definition.
There's nothing wrong with having games that are very focused and zoom in on a very particular theme, that are only meant for a one-shot. Or are meant for short campaigns of say 6-12 sessions.
Some PbtA games fall into this bucket. I think FATE often does too, but I don't think it has too (I've only done one-shots of both of these engines though.) Here's some other interesting examples:
Widdershins (https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/widdershins) is a game about lost toys that have come to life. It's 33 pages, has some "gear" in terms of a key, tokens & relics, and rituals that character (widdershin) has. This is the main things one might gain too, there's no real advancement other than that. If I was running it, I'd probably expect to use the same characters for 3-5 sessions.
Vanagard (https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/vanagard) is an RPG in a box (early mythological viking themed). There's 6 skills (talents) that you have on cards: chase, hunt, work, play, speak wise, lead. These also interact with futhark Runes in game play. After every session you'll likely gain a skill card, and now and then you'll gain the ability to draw more for your checks.
It works well for a one-shot, but I think the juice is in 5-8 sessions.
(rule book is ~20 page booklet, but the box also has "challenge" cards for example encounters you might have, chapter cards for inspiration—and the rune on the top, wooden runes in a bag, ~10 example starting characters.) I wrote a bit more about this one here with pictures (https://composedreamgames.com/forum/discussion/8990/vanagard-viking-folklore-rpg-in-a-box-by-pendelhaven-publishing).
I don't think either of these are "to lite", but neither are they intended as games you play every week for years i.e. long-term campaign play.
I got to play in about 14 sessions of my Simple Superheroes #0 (https://composedreamgames.com/marketplace/simple-superheroes-0) game, which I would say is rules lite even thought the book clocks in at 112 pages (a big chunk is example allies & enemies). The big note is how much I and the rest of the players in that campaign were itching to keep going, and how much regularly getting to enhance or create new "talents" for our heroes helped feed into that. The GM moved away unfortunately.
A case could certainly be made that it's lite/medium and maybe it is, but the core is a framework for creating powers that I explain at cons all the time and people have characters in 20-30minutes (maybe 40 minutes if it's the last slot of a 3 day con.)
So this does work for long-term campaign play.
Someone said that a game using just a single 1D6 for all dice rolls is too lite. I can see that, but I also posted originally with a game that I like which does exactly that. It's a fun game, too.
I can even see an RPG based on just flipping coins for heads or tails. Aka D2 dice. Tiny D6 games can convert to this style with practically no changes at all. You just have to flip two coins when at a disadvantage and get heads both time, just once for most situations, or twice when you have advantage and succeed if you get a single heads result. The math is about the same. 33.3%, 50%, or 66.7%. Compare this to getting a 33.3%, 55%, or 70% with rolling 5 or 6 with 1D6, 2D6, or 3D6, and it's comparable.
Still, more dice options exist with the more dice types. It also keeps it simple to just use dice types.
What I don't like are games that get creative with D6 dice to try and make a lot more results. Often they get needlessly complex for little benefit. I almost think those games were written to show off a unique dice mechanic first, and ease of use was ignored.
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.
Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.
Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.
Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.
I think its a little more nuanced than that. While in general, a rules lite system is better for one shots, some people run pretty much straight up storytelling games as campaigns.
But I guess that bring up the question of what makes up a sustainable game? Is it the mechanics, or is it the players/GM? TBH, I think both are clearly a factor. A fun mechanic engages the players (Prime example: NAT 20) But a less dynamic game, with a good table can also be a ton of fun.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 06, 2022, 01:18:45 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.
Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.
I think its a little more nuanced than that. While in general, a rules lite system is better for one shots, some people run pretty much straight up storytelling games as campaigns.
But I guess that bring up the question of what makes up a sustainable game? Is it the mechanics, or is it the players/GM? TBH, I think both are clearly a factor. A fun mechanic engages the players (Prime example: NAT 20) But a less dynamic game, with a good table can also be a ton of fun.
Ah, but sir now we get into whether storygames are true RPGs! Haha
No, believe me I am kidding:) but another good question you ask there. I think complete systems provoke imagination. I carried around my 1e and 2e PBH everywhere. The art, the play examples, and the rules stirred the imagination. The DMGs did the same thing. I can still pick up the original DMG and read the section on Surprise and immediately have a visual on it playing out at the table.
What I see a lot of now are coffee table books with the latest ink scribbles or over the top art that do not have mechanics or game elements strong enough to support campaign play.
Quote
Ah, but sir now we get into whether storygames are true RPGs! Haha
No, believe me I am kidding:) but another good question you ask there. I think complete systems provoke imagination. I carried around my 1e and 2e PBH everywhere. The art, the play examples, and the rules stirred the imagination. The DMGs did the same thing. I can still pick up the original DMG and read the section on Surprise and immediately have a visual on it playing out at the table.
No, I agree, storygames are RPG adjacent IMO. one could argue with the regimented nature of "moves" in the PbtA or BitD systems, that they are NOT rules lite. Storygames are TOO dogmatic, for my personal taste.
Quote
What I see a lot of now are coffee table books with the latest ink scribbles or over the top art that do not have mechanics or game elements strong enough to support campaign play.
MÖRK BORG for example?
I recently bought Death in Space, and while it OOZES with flavor, and the PDF has this really great 80's sci-fi vibe (and a character generator that looks like an old dial up BBS) Skimming through the rules, I realized its TOO stripped down for long term play. Everything appears to be folded into 4 abilities, Body, Dex, Savvy and Tech. Roll a D20 + the attribute vs Target number. To me, that's too few. For example:
SAVVY (SVY):
Perception, intuition, street smarts, piloting spacecraft, resisting psychological effects, detecting holographic illusions, recalling lore.
WTF does Street smarts and piloting space craft have in common? I could get behind a game that lumps skills into a "profession" rating that covers everything that would logically be included in that skill. But just because you have a high Dex doesnt mean you are equally great at piloting a space ship and firing a gun. To me, rules like that are wholly unsatisfying.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 06, 2022, 02:01:59 PM
Quote
Ah, but sir now we get into whether storygames are true RPGs! Haha
No, believe me I am kidding:) but another good question you ask there. I think complete systems provoke imagination. I carried around my 1e and 2e PBH everywhere. The art, the play examples, and the rules stirred the imagination. The DMGs did the same thing. I can still pick up the original DMG and read the section on Surprise and immediately have a visual on it playing out at the table.
No, I agree, storygames are RPG adjacent IMO. one could argue with the regimented nature of "moves" in the PbtA or BitD systems, that they are NOT rules lite. Storygames are TOO dogmatic, for my personal taste.
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What I see a lot of now are coffee table books with the latest ink scribbles or over the top art that do not have mechanics or game elements strong enough to support campaign play.
MÖRK BORG for example?
I recently bought Death in Space, and while it OOZES with flavor, and the PDF has this really great 80's sci-fi vibe (and a character generator that looks like an old dial up BBS) Skimming through the rules, I realized its TOO stripped down for long term play. Everything appears to be folded into 4 abilities, Body, Dex, Savvy and Tech. Roll a D20 + the attribute vs Target number. To me, that's too few. For example:
SAVVY (SVY):
Perception, intuition, street smarts, piloting spacecraft, resisting psychological effects, detecting holographic illusions, recalling lore.
WTF does Street smarts and piloting space craft have in common? I could get behind a game that lumps skills into a "profession" rating that covers everything that would logically be included in that skill. But just because you have a high Dex doesnt mean you are equally great at piloting a space ship and firing a gun. To me, rules like that are wholly unsatisfying.
Hah, yes.
INTELLIGENCE (INT): Brains and smart smarts. You always get your Wordle in three tries or less and can pilot a SpaceX Dragon.
I was able to resist the urge to purchase Mork Borg. And while I haven't seen anyone post a solid campaign report, I have heard good things. But even that, I believe, comes from the Into the Odd family of games, which has spawned several games people
love to play but not in campaigns, apparently.
I checked out Death in Space, and I see what you are saying. Cool elements. Looks like it will be a quality book. Some of the layout gets into that form over function territory, but most looks good. Then I read (one of?) the main mechanic:
Quote from: Death in Space at deathinspace.com
The core rules are straightforward: when you want to accomplish or avoid something, for example forcing open an airlock, or resisting the effects of strange radiation, you roll a d20 modified by the relevant ability and hope to roll 12 or more.
To increase your chances of succeeding, you can spend a void point. These points are gained from failed rolls and can also be used for other things, such as activating cosmic mutations – strange powers representing physical manifestations of the void.
Merp.
My take on Unisystem and its streamlined 'drama' mode to be the upper edge of rules light. The character options seem to be the spot where the crunch sits, so it has a rules medium feel, but character trait + skill + d10 with a 9 target is easy, with successes scaled to result attained above 9.
Lots of combat options/maneuvers plus a damage system that fits with a wider range of melee and weapon attacks keeps it an 'interesting' light experience. I do house rule Dex to lessen its über-stat status relative to other characteristics.
Quote from: Death in Space at deathinspace.com
The core rules are straightforward: when you want to accomplish or avoid something, for example forcing open an airlock, or resisting the effects of strange radiation, you roll a d20 modified by the relevant ability and hope to roll 12 or more.
To increase your chances of succeeding, you can spend a void point. These points are gained from failed rolls and can also be used for other things, such as activating cosmic mutations – strange powers representing physical manifestations of the void.
Merp.
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I havent looked into the void (points) yet, but the idea doesnt sound appealing.
I suspect this game will be spending time on a shelf or on the coffee table to look at but rarely played.
Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.
Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.
I would say campaign play as well. A game has to have character advancement. They get better over time.
Most rules lite games are poor in this area because games have so few dice rolls, and when they do roll the dice numbers are not large enough to have room for many bonuses or such.
Honestly, most rules lite games feel more like demo rules or something from a board game.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 07, 2022, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.
Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.
I would say campaign play as well. A game has to have character advancement. They get better over time.
Most rules lite games are poor in this area because games have so few dice rolls, and when they do roll the dice numbers are not large enough to have room for many bonuses or such.
Honestly, most rules lite games feel more like demo rules or something from a board game.
The first version of Gamma World I played, but I think it was the 2e of that game, had no advancement rules but was by no means rules light.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 07, 2022, 08:39:16 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on May 06, 2022, 12:30:46 PM
Last handful of posts have asked a pretty good question. Too lite for what? Good context to have.
Generally speaking, my starting point is a game suitable for campaign play.
I would say campaign play as well. A game has to have character advancement. They get better over time.
Most rules lite games are poor in this area because games have so few dice rolls, and when they do roll the dice numbers are not large enough to have room for many bonuses or such.
Honestly, most rules lite games feel more like demo rules or something from a board game.
Not all games use dice of course . . . but I take that point to mean there isn't a clear path forward on how characters might advance, and that path is also constrained by the mechanics. A clear path forward is one of the advantages that level based systems have: they let people "see" what the future might be like if they played for a long time.
A 1d6+x system where you can advance X is also more constrained then a 1d20+x. The roll eventually becomes almost meaningless, and challenges usually aren't geared to characters with a 1d6+9
I think it's also true that some games never saw extensive campaign play before they were published. My own Simple Superheroes only had a couple long campaigns run by me, and a couple others I heard about. Which is certainly more than some games.
I was very deliberate in constraining the breath of characters abilities to help support advancement. One way was that defenses are very narrow and you only have a handful of starting talents, so chances are you'll have a few types of attacks that you are very vulnerable too, rolling only the 1d6 that everyone gets. (This doesn't mean you can't have one or two top end talents - you will.)
A character focussing on many defenses are viable and could actually be constructed a couple different ways, but they might not have a lot else going on.*
I also made the point to have a section in each enemy & ally write-up pointing out how they could advance, suggesting new talents they might develop.
*An Ultimate "make shields" super might look something like this, with the number being the number of d6s they can roll:
Shield Dude
Toughness: 4-force shield [D], 4-energy shield [D], 3-magic shield [D], 3-shield other [R], 2-reflect [OR]
Brains: 2-guarded mind [D], 2-sharp intellect [F]
Shield Dude can only attack with a die, and might need to spend a strainpoint to use his shield to try and escape a succesful grapple, or imprison people, or make a shield air-tight, or sound-proof. On the plus side he can reflect some attacks, and automatically react to protect others. ( D is defensive, R is reactive, F is functional, O is offensive
Quote from: soundchaser on May 06, 2022, 03:40:18 PM
My take on Unisystem and its streamlined 'drama' mode to be the upper edge of rules light. The character options seem to be the spot where the crunch sits, so it has a rules medium feel, but character trait + skill + d10 with a 9 target is easy, with successes scaled to result attained above 9.
Lots of combat options/maneuvers plus a damage system that fits with a wider range of melee and weapon attacks keeps it an 'interesting' light experience. I do house rule Dex to lessen its über-stat status relative to other characteristics.
Yeah, I like that too. If you can provide a pre-gen character and explain the character and the rules inside 15 minutes, it's good. Then you just offer a lot of options for character building later, since that's a big part that's appealing with RPGs. If all the mechanics take longer to explain than 15 minutes, you'll be narrowing your play group.