I like rules lite games. 

However, one-page-rules style games like Risus are not that good if you ask me.  They lack the features I think any good RPG needs. 

1.  Character Stats
2.  Experience advancement
3.  Skills
4.  Bestiary/NPC enemies list
5.  Gear.

My example for a fun RPG that is super minimal, but has all of those above features is Pocket Fantasy.   At its most basic it is just four pages long.  If you want all the gear and extra classes, then it's 8 pages.  Either way, it's a great game that is simple to learn and you can play it in just minutes.  Aka, your session zero could be just a few minutes. 

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/189191

TLDR.  How small can a good game be?  For me, I need 10-50 pages at least.

I don't much enjoy a campaign that last less than about 50 hours of play time, and would prefer they go to 100+ hours.  Rule-lite just doesn't get it done for me with that kind of length.  I don't mind "simple" where I can get it, but not to the point of shaving off tons of options to compress into a tiny space. 

There is a huge difference between having no written rule and having no details.
The largest difference is Trust.

Why do I feel like you're the author of the game you mentioned, and this is a stealth shill?

I don't think your requirements are necessary. Some of my favorite games, like Marvel Super Heroes, have advancement rules that might as well not exist, they're so pointless. They do allow alternate methods of advancement, like stunts in the case of MSH, but those are the kind of things you can do without explicit rules, as well. And for a bestiary, I can replicate or make up monsters off the top of my head, very easily in a minimalist game. I can only see a bestiary being useful for inspiration or new ideas (rare), or to accompany a more rules-heavy game where it's much harder to improvise. Same with gear, to an even greater extent. And it's a roleplaying game. Characters should be primarily defined by personalities and history, not stats. So I don't see a broad array of stats as essential. Skills are similar. I think how skills are handled in Amber, Theatrix, Unknown Armies, Over the Edge, Fudge, and other games are just fine.

I like both rules light and heavier games. They appeal in different ways, and they require very different ways of handling the game. Games with too many trinkets end up putting excessive focus on the mechanics, and if not careful it can start to feel more like a board game. On the other end, games that rely heavily on narrative can start to feel detached from a sense of consequence. The important thing is to manage both.

I have the opposite problem. I've become disillusioned with rules medium and rules heavy games due to rules bloat.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 22, 2022, 10:35:01 AM
TLDR.  How small can a good game be?  For me, I need 10-50 pages at least.

I don't think page-count counts for anything. If a game uses a single D6 for all its rolls, that is too LITE for me. There isn't enough game mechanic there to be had.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 22, 2022, 10:43:41 AM
I don't much enjoy a campaign that last less than about 50 hours of play time, and would prefer they go to 100+ hours.  Rule-lite just doesn't get it done for me with that kind of length.  I don't mind "simple" where I can get it, but not to the point of shaving off tons of options to compress into a tiny space. 

There are three campaign types:
Last Mega-Dungeon Survivor
Zero to Hero
Ship Cruise Buying Spree Amongst the Stars.

I wouldn't count game lengths as being rules LITE or not.

Paradox is probably too strong of a word. One benefit for lite versions of things is ease of access and/or lack of a steep learning curve. One benefit of additional mechanics, robust class descriptions and features, and great artwork and atmosphere is that it helps with imagination. Both players and game masters benefit.

I would regularly see new people post all the time on Reddit about their struggles. Cannot get people to stop looking at their phones. Players won't roleplay. Players do not come back after the first session. Maybe it is a little confirmation bias, but it seemed they would often reference rules lite systems.

FATE, game is pretty much whatever you can bullshit your GM into letting you do.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 22, 2022, 03:25:28 PM
I would regularly see new people post all the time on Reddit about their struggles. Cannot get people to stop looking at their phones. Players won't roleplay. Players do not come back after the first session. Maybe it is a little confirmation bias, but it seemed they would often reference rules lite systems.

Before any session zero with players, I have them all agree to a social contract. The number one reason to get together is for role-play after all, so the social contract is not an issue. If it is an issue with a player, then guess what?

For me alot of "rules lite" RPGs are not RPGs at all really and more just storytelling with some dice now and then. If even that.

Some are little more than a map with some location names and not much else.

These put all the work on the shoulders of the DM or players.

Others are just oracles for either DMless play, or in some cases more creative storygaming in the positive sense.

A perennial Reddit favorite, Lasers and Feelings is not a RPG. At best it is as diverting as a game of checkers.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on April 22, 2022, 03:05:05 PM
I wouldn't count game lengths as being rules LITE or not.

There's not much of a direct link.  I can see how it wouldn't apply to many gamers.  For me, there are enough indirect effects that the chances of a rules lite gaming working for me in a long campaign are effectively nil.  If for no other reason, since I'm a bit of a system junky, a certain amount of rulings will turn into house rules, which means that however rules lite it started, it isn't going to still be rules lite halfway through.  Given that, I might as well cut out the ramp up period.

Quote from: Ocule on April 22, 2022, 04:25:16 PM
FATE, game is pretty much whatever you can bullshit your GM into letting you do.

I second this. I ran it twice and both my players and I thought that every interaction was too undefined.

A game should have as many rules as necessary, and as few as possible. Rules-lite is a minimalist philosophy that insufficiently constrains the game and is effectively a story game while the opposite is an over constrained board game. Character stats are good for adjudication if a character can do something or not. Advancement is necessary so that the character sheet may reflect the characters development although in need not be xp to gain advancement based, as train a skill or go on a quest for knowledge works better for some settings. Skills often devolve into push buttons for progress so physical stat plus justification of why the character knows a skill is a viable alternative. Bestiaries are good for a lore integration but build a monster is better for scratch building worlds. When it comes to gear, if it is non magical, the player and GM out to be able to workout what is available and when in has a mechanical effect instead of having the one true shopping lists, although references for utility and power of key items are helpful.

I like to be on the lighter side of the middle, quick, clear, and concise rules that define what is possible while avoiding pouring over the book and character sheet to make a decision. I do not want a story-game or a board-game when I am looking to play a roleplaying game, but too many of the former masquerade as the latter and fail at being something they are not.

One page? Psssh. Try one word:

https://riverhousegames.itch.io/we-are-but-worms-a-one-word-rpg