Quote from: Shasarak on May 31, 2021, 01:15:08 AM

Quote from: TJS on May 31, 2021, 12:21:00 AM
I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about Alignment.

A Demon is still a demon.

If the Orcs are carrying kidnapped children to put in the cooking pot to eat later no one's going to stop and debate alignment.

Everyones gotta eat, amiright

Tastes like children..er... chicken... yeah... chicken... 

Quote from: Shasarak on May 30, 2021, 11:14:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 30, 2021, 12:44:36 PM
The Taoists did not have an alignment system with good/evil perpendicular to law/chaos. That's not what the bagua is. The bagua is completely irrelevant to this argument.

The two-axis alignment system of law/chaos perpendicular to good/evil is unique to D&D and doesn't have support in any real belief system. It has tons of problems with regards to ethical analysis, which many people have already analyzed and criticized at length for decades.

I think that it is only parts of privileged West Coast US civilisation that seem to believe there is no good and evil.

I'm getting tired of trying to explain this to you, but I'll try one final time.

In Ancient Egyptian religion, good and order were synonymous and represented by the goddess Ma'at. Evil and disorder were synonymous and represented by the demon serpent Apep. The constructive and creative aspect of chaos was represented by the god Set, who fought for Ma'at and defended the sun against Apep.

And this is probably where Moorcock got some of his inspiration from. In Moorcock's mythos, good and evil are not cosmological forces. Order and Chaos are, and they become hostile and destructive towards life at their extremes. At the extreme end of Order you get stuff like Leviathan from Hellraiser, and at the extreme end of Chaos you get... Chaos from Warhammer. It's the Balance that is synonymous with the good, in the sense of supporting the existence of life.

D&D's alignment system misunderstands this basic conceit and overcomplicates it by making good and evil their own cosmological forces rather than outcomes of order and chaos. Naturally, evil and good took precedence over order and chaos because human minds don't think in terms of multi-axis morality.

The Confucian morality doesn't legitimize the D&D alignment system, but concurs with Moorcock. Balance is good, imbalance is bad. The yin/yang doesn't map onto order/chaos, as yin/yang both have what we would consider orderly and chaotic qualities, the balance between yin/yang is good and the imbalance is bad.

Quote from: TJS on May 31, 2021, 12:21:00 AM
I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about Alignment.

A Demon is still a demon.

If the Orcs are carrying kidnapped children to put in the cooking pot to eat later no one's going to stop and debate alignment.

Sometimes the best wisdom is the simplest. Thank you.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 10:41:33 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 30, 2021, 11:14:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 30, 2021, 12:44:36 PM
The Taoists did not have an alignment system with good/evil perpendicular to law/chaos. That's not what the bagua is. The bagua is completely irrelevant to this argument.

The two-axis alignment system of law/chaos perpendicular to good/evil is unique to D&D and doesn't have support in any real belief system. It has tons of problems with regards to ethical analysis, which many people have already analyzed and criticized at length for decades.

I think that it is only parts of privileged West Coast US civilisation that seem to believe there is no good and evil.

I'm getting tired of trying to explain this to you, but I'll try one final time.

In Ancient Egyptian religion, good and order were synonymous and represented by the goddess Ma'at. Evil and disorder were synonymous and represented by the demon serpent Apep. The constructive and creative aspect of chaos was represented by the god Set, who fought for Ma'at and defended the sun against Apep.

And this is probably where Moorcock got some of his inspiration from. In Moorcock's mythos, good and evil are not cosmological forces. Order and Chaos are, and they become hostile and destructive towards life at their extremes. At the extreme end of Order you get stuff like Leviathan from Hellraiser, and at the extreme end of Chaos you get... Chaos from Warhammer. It's the Balance that is synonymous with the good, in the sense of supporting the existence of life.

D&D's alignment system misunderstands this basic conceit and overcomplicates it by making good and evil their own cosmological forces rather than outcomes of order and chaos. Naturally, evil and good took precedence over order and chaos because human minds don't think in terms of multi-axis morality.

The Confucian morality doesn't legitimize the D&D alignment system, but concurs with Moorcock. Balance is good, imbalance is bad. The yin/yang doesn't map onto order/chaos, as yin/yang both have what we would consider orderly and chaotic qualities, the balance between yin/yang is good and the imbalance is bad.

Quote from: TJS on May 31, 2021, 12:21:00 AM
I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about Alignment.

A Demon is still a demon.

If the Orcs are carrying kidnapped children to put in the cooking pot to eat later no one's going to stop and debate alignment.

Sometimes the best wisdom is the simplest. Thank you.

Greetings!

Hmmm...BoxcrayonTales, Chinese religion and society certainly discussed the importance of *Balance*--but it also very much affirmed the greater preference and superiority of Order over Chaos. The Chaos of the periodic floods from the great Yellow River, particularly, could and did unleash absolute Chaos where hundreds of thousands if not million of people were killed, chaos, strife, ruin, and rebellion following, with entire Dynasties ending from it. The forces of Chaos were very, very destructive, and generally viewed as being evil.

The importance of the Emperor keeping the "Mandate of Heaven" played into the Emperor's role as being divinely blessed and chosen, and charged with establishing all order and righteousness, and fighting against Chaos and Evil.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

QuoteHmmm...BoxcrayonTales, Chinese religion and society certainly discussed the importance of *Balance*--but it also very much affirmed the greater preference and superiority of Order over Chaos. The Chaos of the periodic floods from the great Yellow River, particularly, could and did unleash absolute Chaos where hundreds of thousands if not million of people were killed, chaos, strife, ruin, and rebellion following, with entire Dynasties ending from it. The forces of Chaos were very, very destructive, and generally viewed as being evil.

But also floods from Yellow River made soil in its valleys extremely fertile which allowed for unprecedented population growth in this region compared to other lands.
You can chain the river to avoid floods, but then result will be barren soil in some time.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 10:41:33 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 30, 2021, 11:14:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 30, 2021, 12:44:36 PM
The Taoists did not have an alignment system with good/evil perpendicular to law/chaos. That's not what the bagua is. The bagua is completely irrelevant to this argument.

The two-axis alignment system of law/chaos perpendicular to good/evil is unique to D&D and doesn't have support in any real belief system. It has tons of problems with regards to ethical analysis, which many people have already analyzed and criticized at length for decades.

I think that it is only parts of privileged West Coast US civilisation that seem to believe there is no good and evil.

I'm getting tired of trying to explain this to you, but I'll try one final time.

In Ancient Egyptian religion, good and order were synonymous and represented by the goddess Ma'at. Evil and disorder were synonymous and represented by the demon serpent Apep. The constructive and creative aspect of chaos was represented by the god Set, who fought for Ma'at and defended the sun against Apep.

And this is probably where Moorcock got some of his inspiration from. In Moorcock's mythos, good and evil are not cosmological forces. Order and Chaos are, and they become hostile and destructive towards life at their extremes. At the extreme end of Order you get stuff like Leviathan from Hellraiser, and at the extreme end of Chaos you get... Chaos from Warhammer. It's the Balance that is synonymous with the good, in the sense of supporting the existence of life.

D&D's alignment system misunderstands this basic conceit and overcomplicates it by making good and evil their own cosmological forces rather than outcomes of order and chaos. Naturally, evil and good took precedence over order and chaos because human minds don't think in terms of multi-axis morality.

The Confucian morality doesn't legitimize the D&D alignment system, but concurs with Moorcock. Balance is good, imbalance is bad. The yin/yang doesn't map onto order/chaos, as yin/yang both have what we would consider orderly and chaotic qualities, the balance between yin/yang is good and the imbalance is bad.

Quote from: TJS on May 31, 2021, 12:21:00 AM
I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about Alignment.

A Demon is still a demon.

If the Orcs are carrying kidnapped children to put in the cooking pot to eat later no one's going to stop and debate alignment.

Sometimes the best wisdom is the simplest. Thank you.

Even in your Ancient Egyptian you have Chaotic Evil Apep and Lawful Evil Set.

I am sure with a few seconds of duckduckgoing I could find an example of Lawful Good (probably Osiris), Lawful Neutral (probably Thoth) and Chaotic Good (probably Isis)

QuoteEven in your Ancient Egyptian you have Chaotic Evil Apep and Lawful Evil Set.

The theories about Lawfulness of Set are vastly over-exaggerated.
Kinslaying is not lawful act

QuoteI am sure with a few seconds of duckduckgoing I could find an example of Lawful Good (probably Osiris), Lawful Neutral (probably Thoth) and Chaotic Good (probably Isis)

Maybe Bast could be somehow pushed into Chaotic Box, but you're hands would be... oh so scratched.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 31, 2021, 04:49:35 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 10:41:33 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 30, 2021, 11:14:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 30, 2021, 12:44:36 PM
The Taoists did not have an alignment system with good/evil perpendicular to law/chaos. That's not what the bagua is. The bagua is completely irrelevant to this argument.

The two-axis alignment system of law/chaos perpendicular to good/evil is unique to D&D and doesn't have support in any real belief system. It has tons of problems with regards to ethical analysis, which many people have already analyzed and criticized at length for decades.

I think that it is only parts of privileged West Coast US civilisation that seem to believe there is no good and evil.

I'm getting tired of trying to explain this to you, but I'll try one final time.

In Ancient Egyptian religion, good and order were synonymous and represented by the goddess Ma'at. Evil and disorder were synonymous and represented by the demon serpent Apep. The constructive and creative aspect of chaos was represented by the god Set, who fought for Ma'at and defended the sun against Apep.

And this is probably where Moorcock got some of his inspiration from. In Moorcock's mythos, good and evil are not cosmological forces. Order and Chaos are, and they become hostile and destructive towards life at their extremes. At the extreme end of Order you get stuff like Leviathan from Hellraiser, and at the extreme end of Chaos you get... Chaos from Warhammer. It's the Balance that is synonymous with the good, in the sense of supporting the existence of life.

D&D's alignment system misunderstands this basic conceit and overcomplicates it by making good and evil their own cosmological forces rather than outcomes of order and chaos. Naturally, evil and good took precedence over order and chaos because human minds don't think in terms of multi-axis morality.

The Confucian morality doesn't legitimize the D&D alignment system, but concurs with Moorcock. Balance is good, imbalance is bad. The yin/yang doesn't map onto order/chaos, as yin/yang both have what we would consider orderly and chaotic qualities, the balance between yin/yang is good and the imbalance is bad.

Quote from: TJS on May 31, 2021, 12:21:00 AM
I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about Alignment.

A Demon is still a demon.

If the Orcs are carrying kidnapped children to put in the cooking pot to eat later no one's going to stop and debate alignment.

Sometimes the best wisdom is the simplest. Thank you.

Even in your Ancient Egyptian you have Chaotic Evil Apep and Lawful Evil Set.

I am sure with a few seconds of duckduckgoing I could find an example of Lawful Good (probably Osiris), Lawful Neutral (probably Thoth) and Chaotic Good (probably Isis)

Again, Set is a god of chaos.

Quote from: Wrath of God on May 31, 2021, 06:20:34 PM

QuoteEven in your Ancient Egyptian you have Chaotic Evil Apep and Lawful Evil Set.

The theories about Lawfulness of Set are vastly over-exaggerated.
Kinslaying is not lawful act

QuoteI am sure with a few seconds of duckduckgoing I could find an example of Lawful Good (probably Osiris), Lawful Neutral (probably Thoth) and Chaotic Good (probably Isis)

Maybe Bast could be somehow pushed into Chaotic Box, but you're hands would be... oh so scratched.

The worship of Set changed over the millennia that he was worshiped. He got progressively demonized over time due to Egypt being conquered by foreigners.

Yup. There is awesome copypasta about it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 28, 2021, 11:23:39 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 27, 2021, 04:43:43 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:17:18 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2021, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 25, 2021, 11:00:30 AM
Ravenloft has removed alignment from #dnd5e and Drow are now Good. This is all a Postmodernist plan to move #dnd away from myth and moral absolutes of heroic fantasy into "OMG So Random" soulless play.
#ttrpg #osr

So, in case anyone was still thinking RPGPundit was posting accurate information about D&D:

1) Ravenloft doesn't ban alignment.
2) Ravenloft doesn't make Drow good.
3) The RPGPundit hasn't even read the book he's talking about.

1. Are there Alignment stats for any of the creatures in the new Ravenloft book? And that this is in fact a continuation of a change that actually started with Candlekeep?
Go ahead, look it up if you like, I'll wait.

Not listed in two books /= banned from D&D. You have evidence to the contrary? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Two major subsequent D&D books have no had Alignment. It's very clearly a policy change. Very clearly intentional. Or are you suggesting that the WoTC staff are a gang of rank incompetents who have just plum forgot that alignment exists for two major product launches in a row?

Is that your argument, that they're morons?

Quote

Quote3. I don't need to read something to get reliable information about what is or isn't in it. Now, are alignment stats in it, you fucking liar??

I never claimed alignment stats are in it, YOU claimed it banned alignment, you fucking liar.

And they clearly have. There's no more Alignment in the D&D rules from here on in. That's a ban.

If you stopped mentioning cigars in your posts from here on out, would that in itself make cigars a banned topic on this message board, or even banned for you? No, it would not. We all know what the word banned means and we all know this is not what that word means. Alignment remains for all the core books, in all of DnD Beyond, on DMs Guild, etc..

Right now, they're not offering NEW content for alignment. Big deal. They don't offer new content for all sorts of stuff in the game. Shoot, I don't even think they're offering new content for the Sword Coast, and that remains the most supported setting they have. That doesn't make it "banned." None of this stuff is banned if they don't offer new content for it for a couple of books. Or even a couple of years.

But you knew all this. You chose that word because of you stupid tough guy schtick, which is tired and old at this point and badly in need of a refresher.

Yeah, I'd put Set more under Chaotic Neutral overall. Ra is probably Lawful Good, Horus is Neutral Good (lawful leanings, but a couple of his stories have him being a bit on the chaotic side in dealing with his uncle... I'm thinking of the semen salad dressing specifically; there's no way a Lawful entity came up with that stunt).

Hathor on the other hand is a split personality LG/CE depending on whether she's in goddess of motherhood or the wrath of Ra who was slaughtering humanity and drinking their blood and was so horrific that even Ra didn't dare face her directly so he invented beer, died it red so it looked like blood and got her drunk on it until she mellowed out and became good natured Hathor again.

The Egyptians have some fairly wacky hijinx in their mythology.

QuoteHathor on the other hand is a split personality LG/CE depending on whether she's in goddess of motherhood or the wrath of Ra who was slaughtering humanity and drinking their blood and was so horrific that even Ra didn't dare face her directly so he invented beer, died it red so it looked like blood and got her drunk on it until she mellowed out and became good natured Hathor again.

COWS SHALL NOT BE MOCKED

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 31, 2021, 07:29:22 PM
Yeah, I'd put Set more under Chaotic Neutral overall. Ra is probably Lawful Good, Horus is Neutral Good (lawful leanings, but a couple of his stories have him being a bit on the chaotic side in dealing with his uncle... I'm thinking of the semen salad dressing specifically; there's no way a Lawful entity came up with that stunt).

Hathor on the other hand is a split personality LG/CE depending on whether she's in goddess of motherhood or the wrath of Ra who was slaughtering humanity and drinking their blood and was so horrific that even Ra didn't dare face her directly so he invented beer, died it red so it looked like blood and got her drunk on it until she mellowed out and became good natured Hathor again.

The Egyptians have some fairly wacky hijinx in their mythology.

Real cultures don't think in terms of D&D alignment. Trying to map real life culture's deities to D&D alignments is an exercise in futility.

For example, the Greek gods are psychopathic rapists who destroy cities out of jealousy and spite. D&D labels them all "good", except Hades who gets labeled "evil" because death is scary and evil... despite in myth Hades being the only god who didn't torment mortals.

Screw the alignment mechanic! It's an absurd mechanic made by autists that flies in the face of real ethics and mythology.

If nothing else, then WotC removing alignment will hopefully end all these pointless arguments about what mythological or pop culture figure fits into which alignment.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 01, 2021, 07:48:33 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 31, 2021, 07:29:22 PM
Yeah, I'd put Set more under Chaotic Neutral overall. Ra is probably Lawful Good, Horus is Neutral Good (lawful leanings, but a couple of his stories have him being a bit on the chaotic side in dealing with his uncle... I'm thinking of the semen salad dressing specifically; there's no way a Lawful entity came up with that stunt).

Hathor on the other hand is a split personality LG/CE depending on whether she's in goddess of motherhood or the wrath of Ra who was slaughtering humanity and drinking their blood and was so horrific that even Ra didn't dare face her directly so he invented beer, died it red so it looked like blood and got her drunk on it until she mellowed out and became good natured Hathor again.

The Egyptians have some fairly wacky hijinx in their mythology.

Real cultures don't think in terms of D&D alignment. Trying to map real life culture's deities to D&D alignments is an exercise in futility.

For example, the Greek gods are psychopathic rapists who destroy cities out of jealousy and spite. D&D labels them all "good", except Hades who gets labeled "evil" because death is scary and evil... despite in myth Hades being the only god who didn't torment mortals.

Screw the alignment mechanic! It's an absurd mechanic made by autists that flies in the face of real ethics and mythology.

If nothing else, then WotC removing alignment will hopefully end all these pointless arguments about what mythological or pop culture figure fits into which alignment.

Oh, I don't use Alignment in my own games at all (I use a variant of the Allegiances system)

Everyone knows Alignment in the real world is ridiculous... you just need to look at the "Batman of Every Alignment" chart to know this is the case. That doesn't mean it's not fun to try and slot non-game things into anyway, just for the laughs.

Everyone also knows that about the Greek Gods too (there's also a pretty good argument that all the philandering was actually a political attempt at religious syncretism in a culture that didn't have an actual word for rape and considered women, and a good percentage of men, to be basically livestock)... but you joylessly bring it up anyway.

Why do I feel that RPGs are more a joyless crusade for you and not something you actually enjoy?

If you can't have fun with ridiculous mechanics then what's even the point of RPGs?

Quote from: TJS on May 31, 2021, 12:21:00 AM
I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about Alignment.

A Demon is still a demon.

If the Orcs are carrying kidnapped children to put in the cooking pot to eat later no one's going to stop and debate alignment.

Except the same situation that leads them to abolish alignment is what leads them to fill their fantasy settings with half-demons and half-vampires and undead and goblinoids that just act like normal 21st century people, where every fantasy city is a diverse tolerant hipster society. Killing a demon suddenly becomes a questionable Hate Crime.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 10:41:33 AM

The Confucian morality doesn't legitimize the D&D alignment system, but concurs with Moorcock. Balance is good, imbalance is bad. The yin/yang doesn't map onto order/chaos, as yin/yang both have what we would consider orderly and chaotic qualities, the balance between yin/yang is good and the imbalance is bad.

You're not as such wrong about what you wrote above, however you overlook that the Confucian system has a third power: "De", the power of human Virtue. The human consciousness is divided into Hun and Po, the great man and the inferior man. So you suddenly have a multivariant system: It's not enough to have harmony of the internal attributes of yin and yang, because there is also the external application of whether one has cultivated De, being Virtuous, or has embraced the base man within themselves and thus is Unvirtuous.