Quote from: Seanchai;466577If WotC was still selling their product that way.

Seanchai

I think they are definitely forward thinking with DDI. And i dont think it is just about print sales these days. But i suspect print sales still matter for wotc, and there just seems to be a bit of chaos emanating from them lately.

I'm waiting for the 5e announcement. I bet it comes this GenCon.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466580But i suspect print sales still matter for wotc...

And yet they're not even releasing a print product per month...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;466577If WotC was still selling their product that way.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;466585And yet they're not even releasing a print product per month...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;466577Lalalalalalalala! La! La! I cannot hear you! My favorite game is still Number One!

Seanchai

Translated.

Quote from: Seanchai;466585And yet they're not even releasing a print product per month...

Seanchai

I think its more likely they altered their print production schedule due to problems with print sales. Between lisa's statement, bill slavicsek's firing and recent release adjustments i am inclined to think wizard's is not thrilled with where 4e is right now.

*is inclinded to think that thanks to NF's purchasing of 4th printing copies of Pathfinder RPG core rule book to random strangers, Lisa has a lot to be thankful for.*

I know my local comics and gaming store is happy. My wallet...not so much.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466591I think its more likely they altered their print production schedule due to problems with print sales. Between lisa's statement, bill slavicsek's firing and recent release adjustments i am inclined to think wizard's is not thrilled with where 4e is right now.

Nor should they be. They've got largely to blame themselves. DDI apart (which, by the way, does not recruit new customers if you don't advertise it in new print product), WotC has largely abandoned 4E Classic and put all its eggs in one basket - Essentials. That alienated a large part of the 4.0 audience who refuse to buy Essentials stuff; even those who did not were seriously soured by 'Heroes of Shadow' (spring 2011), arguably the worst book containing game mechanics WotC released in the last ten years. Add in that a couple of excellent WotC titles, including the conversion guide for 4.0 <--> Essentials, were removed from the 2011 release schedule, and that part of the pulled material is now freely available on DDI (that is, to people without DDI subscription), and you see the perfect storm:

Paizo puts out a spade of product (including hotsellers like big player crunch hardcovers) while WotC has either stopped to sell stuff at all, or is selling to an ever shrinking audience which got hit by wave after wave of customer alienation since 2005. Seriously, I don't think 4E ever had that large an audience, and to splinter that fanbase with 'Essentials' backfired badly for WotC.

The real question for Paizo is how they are going to be doing by this time next year, when all the 'Completes' (player splat books) have been released, and they'd have to crank out their fourth Monster Manual. For that was precisely the point at which 4E stopped making serious money. There is, after all, only so much crunch you can sell to your audience. Luckily, Paizo have much else on offer besides, but I still think they should be wary of the future. Their present success otoh is deserved, I think, in that they were at the brink of going out (in 2007) and see where they are now.

PS. And some anecdotal evidence from local retail stores: all pre-Essential titles are now marked off 80% - you literally can't find them outside bargain bins - while even old Pathfinder stuff is sold for retail price (which for most European LGS means 'take the dollar price and append a Euro sign').

One could dare to hope that the forthcoming setting material of different flavors (Oriental, Persian) could set the tone for the product going forth.

How much of 2e was setting material?

A metric fuckload.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466591I think its more likely they altered their print production schedule due to problems with print sales.

I think it's more likely that they realized they could make more money from DDI than print products.

Seanchai

Quote from: Windjammer;466593The real question for Paizo is how they are going to be doing by this time next year, when all the 'Completes' (player splat books) have been released, and they'd have to crank out their fourth Monster Manual. For that was precisely the point at which 4E stopped making serious money. There is, after all, only so much crunch you can sell to your audience.

Moreover, Paizo - especially with statement's like the CEO's - is no longer the underdog. What's going to happen when they can no longer reasonably play the "we're just a small business who loves its customers" martyr card?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;466596I think it's more likely that they realized they could make more money from DDI than print products.

Seanchai

Its entirely possible i am wrong. Time will show which conclusion is correct.

Quote from: Seanchai;466597Moreover, Paizo - especially with statement's like the CEO's - is no longer the underdog. What's going to happen when they can no longer reasonably play the "we're just a small business who loves its customers" martyr card?

Seanchai

If they truly beat out wizards that may be a concern for them. But i think they have one strong advantage: they are a small company in a small industry and appear to be connected with their customers ( the ceo chiming in on a tgread is an example of this).

I understand the historical significance of this and I appreciate the theological ramifications for the edition wars, but for me D&D or Pathfinder, it's all the same. The two games have a lot more in common than they have that is different.

I'ts kind of like when IBM sold it's PC business to China's Lenovo. For all the historical and symbolic importance by PC at work still does all the stuff it used to.

Quote from: Seanchai;466597Moreover, Paizo - especially with statement's like the CEO's - is no longer the underdog. What's going to happen when they can no longer reasonably play the "we're just a small business who loves its customers" martyr card?

Oh, I'm sure they will find some novel way to annoy you.

Quote from: Melan;466607Oh, I'm sure they will find some novel way to annoy you.

Yeah, this time next year we'll buy WotC products whose interior cover reads 'Compatible with the best selling roleplaying game' and whose backcovers will be graced by this logo:



Edit. From the same seller linked to above, a statement re: the same situation in October 2010:

QuoteBut is Pathfinder our number one game? I believe it was for a short time, just as Essentials was hitting. I made a grand pronouncement on Facebook that Pathfinder had hit our number one spot. That may have been premature. That was before I crunched these numbers and realized Dungeons & Dragons Essentials has been hitting them out of the park, and although Paizo is sitting at top positions on the chart, Essentials has re-invigorated the D&D line. It has been a mini re-release of D&D, adding new players to the game and inspiring the base. I've been selling Essentials products to teenagers lately, new gamers, something I haven't done much of in several years.

Got to re-evaluate my assessment that Essentials killed off 4E. If what the guy says here is correct, Essentials was a brief respite to an already dying game line.