Quote from: danbuter;466649I will never understand blind loyalty to a corporation, where someone will defend a company to ridiculous lengths.

A similar thing can be said about other niches which attract such blind loyalty, such as:

- rock bands
- countries
- religions
- sports teams
- authority figures
- style of music
- certain product brands
- any large group/organization in general.

Quote from: danbuter;466649If a product is pdf only, it's sales will be a tenth of a comparable print product, and that's only if it's a big company pushing it.

Ebooks took over dead tree sales a couple years ago. The majority of RPG products are .pdf ONLY because they would not sell a 1/10 the number of copies at retail. Many of the bigger publishers (SJ Games, White-Wolf) have abandoned dead tree damn near completely for .pdf sales. The only company I can think of that is still predominantly dead tree is Palladium.

Also, I would not place Paizo in the "Small Company" list. Paizo also makes board games and other things. They may be the most active publisher of RPG materials with Corebooks, Modules, Cards and other supplements coming out multiple times a month. Either Paizo or FFG are the number 2 (if not the number 1) RPG publisher.

Quote from: KrakaJak;466661Ebooks took over dead tree sales a couple years ago.

Be careful with that statement; I've been informed over 70% of those e-books are technical in nature (professional and collegiate texts, etc).

Quote from: Novastar;466675Be careful with that statement; I've been informed over 70% of those e-books are technical in nature (professional and collegiate texts, etc).

Then again, among the first books hot off the Gutenberg press were Bibles and scholarly theses; as much the 'professional and collegiate' text at the time as any contemporary trigonometry book or repair manual.

In the meantime I'll just ready myself for Carrion Crown, my revenge AND trying to get my paladin-hood back for Hasini via a semi-dumb DM ruling.

I dont think there is an absolute cut off for small medium and large in this sense. Believe what i really have in mind is agility, connection to customers and nature of the leadership. With paizo i just get the sense they are more in touch with their customers, their leadership is more in touch with the hobby and design, and they can pivot pretty easily. These assumptions could be wrong. It is just my impression. And that doesn't mean wizards doesn' have its own strong advantages.  But presently all the evidence i am seeing is that 4e isnt performing as well as wizards expected. Believe this is why slavicsek is gone, why pathfinder is doing so well, and why wizards doesn't have a clear sense of direction (at least i don't see that they do).

Good for them, I guess, whatever this actually ends up meaning.  But this point it's hard for me to give a shit when neither company has had much influence on my gaming since 05.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;466647Writing about his time in Lake Geneva when WotC was buying TSR, Ryan Dancey said the following:



I think that's exactly what's happening to WotC, today.  A significant portion of the D&D market has decided that what WotC is currently doing and selling is irrelevant to its D&D gaming.  It's really as simple as that.

Speaking anecdotally, I would say wotc initially capitalized on young teems crazy about Tolkien like myself back at 3es launch, and that to most people, anything past 3.0 had no significance.  3.5 was cited as having significantly fewer corebook sales than 3e.  Whatever audience paizo has at this point is most likely hobbyist in nature, as most people I know still use 3.0 and do not have contact with the hobby as a whole.  I think overall 4e may have brought in more fresh blood than paizo, especially.given their cross promotions with more significant venues for entertainment and gaming, even if this influx is not enough to make up for the loss of the more dedicated fans who like earlier editions.

But I mean, that's what happens when you release a mostly functional game to a bunch of young geeks who have plenty of other mediums to vet their game on.  You're not going to shell.out for a new d&d, whether a half edition or not, when what you have has served you fine (in your mind, anyway), and a new xbox is more important in terms of geek socialization (since video games are now a defaut lynchpin for healthy youth socializing).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466714With paizo i just get the sense they are more in touch with their customers, their leadership is more in touch with the hobby and design, and they can pivot pretty easily.

I would certainly agree that Paizo's upper management is more in touch with the hobby. I don't know about "pivoting" easily, however - wasn't the stated reason behind Pathfinder the fact that they couldn't produce 4e materials with the time they had to do so?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466714Believe this is why slavicsek is gone...

Slavicsek's departure could also be explained by a personality conflict, differing ideas about where D&D and the company should go, and a host of other normal reasons why people leave companies. And, as we know, WotC has a history of laying people off.

Also, WotC has a new corporate head from Hasbro, they just changed business models, and the United States economy - and it's associated unemployment rate - is still in the toilet.

It could be that D&D isn't performing well, but that's certainly not the sole (or, in my estimation, most likely) explanation for why Slavicsek was let go.  

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466714why pathfinder is doing so well...

It is? We've heard that it's outselling D&D, but without context and with barely any new D&D products being put on the shelves, that's nigh meaningless.

It might be doing well. I can only say that the Pathfinder sections in my two FLGSes are pretty pitiful.

Seanchai

Quote from: Novastar;466675Be careful with that statement; I've been informed over 70% of those e-books are technical in nature (professional and collegiate texts, etc).

I'd be cautious as well. I'm sure sales of print books are down and I don't doubt publishers embrace e-publishing, but it seems to me that whether or not an e-book will outsell a hard copy has a lot of variables...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;466757It is? We've heard that it's outselling D&D, but without context and with barely any new D&D products being put on the shelves, that's nigh meaningless.

It might be doing well. I can only say that the Pathfinder sections in my two FLGSes are pretty pitiful.

Seanchai

The Pathfinder section at my local LGS is twice as big as the 4e section, and the owner has stated it sells much better. Maybe it's a regional thing. Of course, I'm sure he's losing sales to B&N and Borders, who both carry 4e. Borders also has Pathfinder books, but B&N doesn't.

Quote from: Seanchai;466758I'd be cautious as well. I'm sure sales of print books are down and I don't doubt publishers embrace e-publishing, but it seems to me that whether or not an e-book will outsell a hard copy has a lot of variables...

Seanchai

Books are a luxury. Many people have probably quit buying them and are actually going to the library for their fix, nowadays.

Thanks for the responses seanchai. Can't quote you as i am on i phone for the next week. Will try to address your points:

Pivoting: i do think they can pivot better than wizards if onlybecause they are a more focused company and i assume (due to them not being part of hasbro or wizards) they have fewer corporate layers to cut through for decisions. I imagine the real reason they stuck with 3e is they had a wealth of 3e material in development and they didn't want to deal with the 4e license.

Slavicsek: he was the head of r&d. I just dont see him leaving over a personality conflict. If there had been one would expect the person lower on the totem to go. Sure its possible he left voljntarily i simply dont see that as the most plausible explanation. Especially given all the evidence that 4e isnt performing well. I also doubt they let him go to cut costs. Its subjective but that is my reading of it.

Pathfinder doing well: i find lisa's statement quite convincing and i think if it is outselling 4e in print that is very significant. I also see a lot of evidence locally that pathfinder is doing well and 4e is having problems. Personally i don't play either but i am active in my gaming community and seeing a shift in favor of pathfinder.

Quote from: Seanchai;466758I'd be cautious as well. I'm sure sales of print books are down and I don't doubt publishers embrace e-publishing, but it seems to me that whether or not an e-book will outsell a hard copy has a lot of variables...

Seanchai

Right now our print books outsell our pdfs by a huge margin. However we haven't explored things like kindle format (as some others are).

Quote from: mhensley;466554supporting evidence-

http://bit.ly/jP2LXu

Interesting that according to that chart, WotC D&D sales are up this year from last year, even if you don't factor in DDI.