Quote from: Opaopajr;908562OK. I just was shocked and awed by watching Nemesis for the first time with friends. It is the pinnacle of fantabulous bad-great movies, achieving sublime apotheosis for one's inner 14 year old boy starved of sex & violence. I wander about in a daze even now, a day after, as if I have watched G-d and all I witness now are pale reflections of Its Majesty.

But this is on the heels of absolute disgust with Shadowrun as a functioning system for our play needs. The latest in a string of doomed campaigns recently came to the oft experienced realization that "the system doesn't deliver its promised setting." It's a chunky, clunky, contested, bested, munchkin front-loaded, ass-mined equip list, garbled, time sink of a no-climax whiskey-dicked frotage mess — and we've just had enough. So, if you got a defense for Shadowrun germinating now, I don't wanna hear about it. "Because I am not one of your fans!" -- Mommie Dearest

I want to trod the road to anything approaching the rapid fire glory that is Nemesis, which means Real Time combat speed resolution is at a premium. In fact, Real Time resolution of absolutely everything, social, decking, etc., is now at a premium. Also, functional weapon & armor equip lists, sane "edge rules," less obfuscated pass/fail probability, etc. all of it, is at a premium — if it is at least functional at a less than crunchier than "Jif crunchy, now with Quarry Gravel!" level.

So, how strong is Cyberpunk's chassis to replace wholesale Shadowrun's? What are Cyberpunk's major system quirks, pitfalls, and failures? Can I run a minute long combat in anything less that an hour? Where does the game grind its momentum to a halt and where does it sing?

I'll fuckin' port this movie bad boy into OD&D if I have to, but don't make me go there yet. I'll even whip out the Jenga Dread if need be. (I'll do it motherfuckers, don't you think I'm messin' 'round here, you suckheads! State of the Art!)
:mad:

— with love, ever your friend,
opaopajr

No one appreciates a Rant more than me, bravo.  Especially one about Shadowrun 5th Edition.  However, you're always one to recognize that when someone criticizes D&D, they should be calling out the version, because most of the problems in the newest versions didn't exist in the old and were created by the newest versions.  Well, Shadowrun is a lot the same way.  So before you go apeshit and reach for Jenga, I do have to ask one thing...did you ever look at Shadowrun 2nd?  The standard Cyberpunk gear porn only turns to gear snuff-fetishism in 3rd+.  I don't like Shadowrun 5th, or 4th either, so you won't get a spirited defense from me.

So to your points...

Combat
Do you want wounds or hit points?  If wounds, do you want location-based or general?
No RPG ever, has ever done anything in Real Time.  Mechanics, no matter how simplistic or streamlined, will take longer than split-second actions, like pulling a trigger 5 times.  Cyberpunk combat, whether you're going for the grittier CP2013 or the slightly more generic CP2020 is pretty quick, easy, and deadly, with lots of weapon options, caliber choices, accuracy rating, etc...  If you don't like gunporn, pick a different genre Omae, or play a storygame where the mechanics don't care about whether you have a holdout or a gauss cannon.  Based on your rant, you would like SR2 way better than SR5 and would like CP2020 even more.

Magic
You were using Shadowrun without the magic I assume?  Not many Cyberpunk-genre games are going to have a magic system.

Hacking
The hacking system changes in every version of Shadowrun, SR3 may be closest to what you want, instead of a network or system map you prowl around on, it simply has a series of actions and ratings for various attributes of the system.
CP2020 has a System Map hacking system just like most versions of Shadowrun, so more of a minigame.
Not enough info in your rant on the hacking to make a recommendation, just that I don't think any version of Cyberpunk or Shadowrun is gonna fit the bill if you're serious.

Cyberware
CP2020 is heavy on the cyberware, and has a limitation on it, although this one is psychological, not physical/spiritual.  Tech level in CP2020 is slightly higher, with full-conversions and robots.  All that having been said, the wired reflex systems in CP2020 aren't as boosting as those in Shadowrun and someone Chromed to the Max! will be less game breaking in CP2020 than they will in SR2, but watch out for those full-conversions.

You have two things going on here...
1. You want to have a streamlined, less gadgety and subsystemy Cyberpunk.
2. You want to emulate a specific genre style of a movie.

#1 I think is going to be represented best not by Cyberpunk 2020 but by Interface Zero 2.0, which is a Savage Worlds game.  Like all Savage Worlds games, it is based off a tried and true streamlined engine, but the engine does have it's issues, every system does.  IZ2 is one of those SW games that makes some changes to the rules for the sake of the setting, which is something not a whole lot of SW games do.  Big recommendation here, the hacking system.  It's not bound to a map, and uses the exact same skill and combat system of the regular system.  The list of computer tech elements, skills and programs is a couple pages, not an entire sourcebook.  Fiddly enough for Hackers so they can work on getting better tech and coding new programs, but not a computer science sim.

#2 I have no idea, because I haven't seen the movie.  If you're talking about Blade Runner, detective noir with classic cyberpunk elements, then that's probably served best by CP2020.  If you're talking about B-movie action, well B-movie action is Savage World's raison-d'etre, always has been.

So, Interface 2.0 vs. Cyberpunk 2020
Classic Genre Tropes - CP2020 without a doubt.  There are classes, which essentially give you a specific skill that only your class has, that's really the only genre mechanic in there, but the tech and entire game is clearly Gibsonian.  Setting of course, you control, so you can swing things anyway you want.
Combat - It looks like you're done with complexity, so IZ2 wins here, especially if you want to have the group take on a whole go-gang or the sec guards of a facility.  CP2020 will run faster then SR5, definitely, but there will be bodies on the floor.  IZ2 has Mook Rules though, so if you do away with those, much of the crazy fast combat slows down.  That's the price of speed in SW.
Tech - Hard one to say.  CP2020 is classic, IZ2 is more "New Cyberpunk" what I call "Post Ghost in the Shell".  It has AR, augmented reality, cyborgs, androids, genetic nuhumans, mecha, low-end energy weapons/high-end kinetic weapons.  Granted a lot of the Mirrorshades writers had those elements too, but the IZ2 aesthetic is clearly past Blade Runner timewise.
Hacking - IZ2 hands down.  No map, less crunchy, no subsytems.
Martial Arts - CP2020, the Martial Arts system is cool and full of choices without adding a whole 'nother subsystem.  IZ2 is much more generic.
Vehicles, Mechs - Both have these, both have a system that handles vehicle vs. vehicle as well as vehicle vs. character combat.  Been a while since I've done vehicular combat in CP2020, my gut tells me the simpler IZ2 might be your choice there.

I like Shadowrun. I like it quite a bit. I've even written fanfiction for it.

5th edition however is utter diseased ass cancer. They took a base system that had hanging subsystems and actually made it WORSE! And that's ignoring the 3rd edition fetishism.

And then to split books into physical copies that have less material so they can then put the missing parts into a web supplement and expect you to pay for two splats that used to only be one.

Fuck every last one of you.

Yeebus you all make me so very very very glad I stuck with 1st ed and missed all the following nonsense!

Yes, sorry, it was 5e by Catalyst that has tried my patience. But the dice pool engine with too many contested rolls focus has been pretty consistently present since 1e FASA.

(FASA... I love your settings, I hate your systems. I sat back like a poached egg learning them from über fans, and hadn't the heart to criticize until more experience. Yet after the madness known as Mechwarrior, my patience runs thin. But that's an amateur's complaint and worthy for another time...)

I'm gonna sit back about Shadowrun hair splitting because I am nowhere near as invested in the system or its edition variants.

I really want to speed up my cyber-i-give-no-genre-fucks games without pulling out my fucking hair as players pull out their fucking phones from the game's drag ass.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;908697I like Shadowrun. I like it quite a bit. I've even written fanfiction for it.

5th edition however is utter diseased ass cancer. They took a base system that had hanging subsystems and actually made it WORSE! And that's ignoring the 3rd edition fetishism.

And then to split books into physical copies that have less material so they can then put the missing parts into a web supplement and expect you to pay for two splats that used to only be one.

Fuck every last one of you.

It is indeed the ass cancer... plus the diabetes, with arthritis, and scabies. It is such a shameless cash grab, I'm angry for my friends who bought it and feel taken — the anger radiates into other people. And the layout, copy pasta, & editing!...

But yeah, fuck that noise. Sweet crazy setting trapped under bullshit. Can't waste more lifetime fighting it when I can restart wholesale.

Quote from: CRKrueger;908693So, Interface 2.0 vs. Cyberpunk 2020
Classic Genre Tropes - CP2020 without a doubt.  There are classes, which essentially give you a specific skill that only your class has, that's really the only genre mechanic in there, but the tech and entire game is clearly Gibsonian.  Setting of course, you control, so you can swing things anyway you want.
Combat - It looks like you're done with complexity, so IZ2 wins here, especially if you want to have the group take on a whole go-gang or the sec guards of a facility.  CP2020 will run faster then SR5, definitely, but there will be bodies on the floor.  IZ2 has Mook Rules though, so if you do away with those, much of the crazy fast combat slows down.  That's the price of speed in SW.
Tech - Hard one to say.  CP2020 is classic, IZ2 is more "New Cyberpunk" what I call "Post Ghost in the Shell".  It has AR, augmented reality, cyborgs, androids, genetic nuhumans, mecha, low-end energy weapons/high-end kinetic weapons.  Granted a lot of the Mirrorshades writers had those elements too, but the IZ2 aesthetic is clearly past Blade Runner timewise.
Hacking - IZ2 hands down.  No map, less crunchy, no subsytems.
Martial Arts - CP2020, the Martial Arts system is cool and full of choices without adding a whole 'nother subsystem.  IZ2 is much more generic.
Vehicles, Mechs - Both have these, both have a system that handles vehicle vs. vehicle as well as vehicle vs. character combat.  Been a while since I've done vehicular combat in CP2020, my gut tells me the simpler IZ2 might be your choice there.

Classic Genre Tropes is pretty high up on importance.

Combat speed is at a very high priority. But I also want to enjoy generalists and avoid/minimize munchkinism. I already heard the Savage Worlds issues with repeated shaken, (fixed yet?) and I already don't like the system for obfuscating probability through (i see as gimmicky) die sizes.

CP 2020 sounds super sexy with stat (1-10) + skill (1-10) + 1d10. As probability determinations go, that's sexy transparent and ready-made for on the fly adjudications.

Mook rules are dirt easy to add to any system (use "0th or 1st lvls!" ) But if Savage has them baked into the cake for speed... not a strong sell. I hate having to reverse engineer something out instead of glom something on. I'm ok with death; I also know how to tweak (add mooks?) to make cakewalks.

I need more experience for how fast CP 2020 plays. Glowing commentary for Savage litters the internet — and I believe less than half of it from what I've seen of the system.

Tech New lists for toys is nice. Not completely sold that I need to upgrade to the new WiFi/matrix modern paradigm, because sometimes I want to play a "period piece."
My most important tech issue is transparent probability and known game breaking limits as examples (like restricted or banned weaponry or armor that mathematically make sense). From that I can design anything what I need. This is where SW swappable die sizes as a main stat function causes inconvenience.

Hacking Won't lie, the minigame aspect of this can be a real issue. Part of me was ready to just hand Netrunner decks between two players to duke it out and report back.

How hard is it to scrap CP 2020 subsystem system and adopt IZ 2.0 solutions through CP 2020 core mechanics?

Martial Arts I didn't think of it as a priority, but yeah, that shit was huge back in the day. Kinda nice to have it just to have it just in case we need to have a shameful circle jerk in the future. Who knows, I may feel the desperate need to mix Terminator & Naruto for unspeakably stupid reasons in the future?

How stable and robust was CP 2020/ system here? Not baseline crazy into the American Ninja spectrum?

Vehicles This is kinda big. Seen too much nonsense from Shadowrun and Warhammer 40k that I just can't take it anymore. How robust is CP 2020 lists to actual play? No gaping "we have no fucking clue about real life weaponry let alone imaginary one! Wanna kung-fu the ATV in half? Take a cannon blast to the chest?"

Is it cogent enough that it passes the SWN common sense threshold? As in "Hand to Hand hasn't a prayer v. Ranged Large Arms, Ranged Arms hasn't a prayer v. Ground Ordinance, Ground Ordinance hasn't a prayer v. Air/Sea Ordinance, Air/Sea hasn't a prayer v. Space Ordinance,"?

I bowed out of the Shadowrun train during the big embezzlement scandal at Catalyst late(ish) in the 4E cycle.  I glanced at the 5E book and decided it wasn't different enough to waste money on.

Sounds like I made an excellent choice.  

Of course, I swear by CP2020... its one of a handful of games that I can run entirely without books. Sure, books are nice for knowing what all those bits of chrome actually (well, I actually could reproduce most of the core cybernetics from memory...), as well as the slightly more complex than useful gun stats (ditto... Ok, only the important bits, like Damage. And I can wing the rest!).

My advice for jumping into CP2020 is to bypass the Roles and the attendant Special Skills.  Use the Roles as guidelines on skill sets, rather than actual classes. Of course, this monkeys a bit with starting cash (big whoop)... and unless you REALLY need to include a PC hacker, pass all hacking/netrunning/decking to an NPC who does their mojo at the speed of plot, off screen.

Cyberpunk also has some sort of world record for most high quality supplements ever!  Every god damn book they released is a fucking gold mine, usually presenting some part of the game in an entirely new light, almost making mini-RPGs out of the core rules.

One of these days I'll have to sit down and re-read DeathNet for D20m.

Really interesting setting. Horrible CG art.

Quote from: Omega;908726One of these days I'll have to sit down and re-read DeathNet for D20m.

Really interesting setting. Horrible CG art.

Its gotta be better than Dolls.

:shudder:

Quote from: Opaopajr;908720It is indeed the ass cancer... plus the diabetes, with arthritis, and scabies. It is such a shameless cash grab, I'm angry for my friends who bought it and feel taken — the anger radiates into other people. And the layout, copy pasta, & editing!...

But yeah, fuck that noise. Sweet crazy setting trapped under bullshit. Can't waste more lifetime fighting it when I can restart wholesale.

I remember when the writers of Shadowrun were getting slammed with posts about how they were ablist and transphobic because of the essence limits to social rolls. Makes me laugh now, where as a few years ago I was fairly irritated by the whole thing.

I just don't have an sympathy left.

Quote from: CRKrueger;908693No RPG ever, has ever done anything in Real Time.  Mechanics, no matter how simplistic or streamlined, will take longer than split-second actions, like pulling a trigger 5 times.

Out of curiosity, Lemmy, where do you place Amber RPG and its "derivatives" on the "RPG <-> not RPG" spectrum?

Opaopajr, I feel your pain.

I am working on a project (too fucking slowly) based on almost identical complaints.

In the meantime, I personally suggest two options. Use either D6, Savage Worlds or Buffy/Unisystem as the system (whichever works for you and your crew) and port over the Shadowrun setting bits you want.

Or pick up a copy of Shadowrun 1e.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908742Out of curiosity, Lemmy, where do you place Amber RPG and its "derivatives" on the "RPG <-> not RPG" spectrum?

RPGs use dice!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;908745RPGs use dice!!

Indie/narrative/boardgames might use dice too.

Quote from: Spinachcat;908744Opaopajr, I feel your pain.

I am working on a project (too fucking slowly) based on almost identical complaints.

In the meantime, I personally suggest two options. Use either D6, Savage Worlds or Buffy/Unisystem as the system (whichever works for you and your crew) and port over the Shadowrun setting bits you want.

Or pick up a copy of Shadowrun 1e.

No, not 1e.  Go with 2e if you're going Shadowrun.  1e was a mess.