Quote from: Opaopajr;908562OK. I just was shocked and awed by watching Nemesis for the first time with friends. It is the pinnacle of fantabulous bad-great movies, achieving sublime apotheosis for one's inner 14 year old boy starved of sex & violence. I wander about in a daze even now, a day after, as if I have watched G-d and all I witness now are pale reflections of Its Majesty.
But this is on the heels of absolute disgust with Shadowrun as a functioning system for our play needs. The latest in a string of doomed campaigns recently came to the oft experienced realization that "the system doesn't deliver its promised setting." It's a chunky, clunky, contested, bested, munchkin front-loaded, ass-mined equip list, garbled, time sink of a no-climax whiskey-dicked frotage mess — and we've just had enough. So, if you got a defense for Shadowrun germinating now, I don't wanna hear about it. "Because I am not one of your fans!" -- Mommie Dearest
I want to trod the road to anything approaching the rapid fire glory that is Nemesis, which means Real Time combat speed resolution is at a premium. In fact, Real Time resolution of absolutely everything, social, decking, etc., is now at a premium. Also, functional weapon & armor equip lists, sane "edge rules," less obfuscated pass/fail probability, etc. all of it, is at a premium — if it is at least functional at a less than crunchier than "Jif crunchy, now with Quarry Gravel!" level.
So, how strong is Cyberpunk's chassis to replace wholesale Shadowrun's? What are Cyberpunk's major system quirks, pitfalls, and failures? Can I run a minute long combat in anything less that an hour? Where does the game grind its momentum to a halt and where does it sing?
I'll fuckin' port this movie bad boy into OD&D if I have to, but don't make me go there yet. I'll even whip out the Jenga Dread if need be. (I'll do it motherfuckers, don't you think I'm messin' 'round here, you suckheads! State of the Art!)
:mad:
— with love, ever your friend,
opaopajr :p
No one appreciates a Rant more than me, bravo. Especially one about Shadowrun 5th Edition. However, you're always one to recognize that when someone criticizes D&D, they should be calling out the version, because most of the problems in the newest versions didn't exist in the old and were created by the newest versions. Well, Shadowrun is a lot the same way. So before you go apeshit and reach for Jenga, I do have to ask one thing...did you ever look at Shadowrun 2nd? The standard Cyberpunk gear porn only turns to gear snuff-fetishism in 3rd+. I don't like Shadowrun 5th, or 4th either, so you won't get a spirited defense from me.
So to your points...
CombatDo you want wounds or hit points? If wounds, do you want location-based or general?
No RPG
ever, has ever done anything in Real Time. Mechanics, no matter how simplistic or streamlined, will take longer than split-second actions, like pulling a trigger 5 times. Cyberpunk combat, whether you're going for the grittier CP2013 or the slightly more generic CP2020 is pretty quick, easy, and deadly, with lots of weapon options, caliber choices, accuracy rating, etc... If you don't like gunporn, pick a different genre Omae, or play a storygame where the mechanics don't care about whether you have a holdout or a gauss cannon. Based on your rant, you would like SR2 way better than SR5 and would like CP2020 even more.
MagicYou were using Shadowrun without the magic I assume? Not many Cyberpunk-genre games are going to have a magic system.
HackingThe hacking system changes in every version of Shadowrun, SR3 may be closest to what you want, instead of a network or system map you prowl around on, it simply has a series of actions and ratings for various attributes of the system.
CP2020 has a System Map hacking system just like most versions of Shadowrun, so more of a minigame.
Not enough info in your rant on the hacking to make a recommendation, just that I don't think any version of Cyberpunk or Shadowrun is gonna fit the bill if you're serious.
CyberwareCP2020 is heavy on the cyberware, and has a limitation on it, although this one is psychological, not physical/spiritual. Tech level in CP2020 is slightly higher, with full-conversions and robots. All that having been said, the wired reflex systems in CP2020 aren't as boosting as those in Shadowrun and someone Chromed to the Max! will be less game breaking in CP2020 than they will in SR2, but watch out for those full-conversions.
You have two things going on here...
1. You want to have a streamlined, less gadgety and subsystemy Cyberpunk.
2. You want to emulate a specific genre style of a movie.
#1 I think is going to be represented best not by Cyberpunk 2020 but by Interface Zero 2.0, which is a Savage Worlds game. Like all Savage Worlds games, it is based off a tried and true streamlined engine, but the engine does have it's issues, every system does. IZ2 is one of those SW games that makes some changes to the rules for the sake of the setting, which is something not a whole lot of SW games do. Big recommendation here, the hacking system. It's not bound to a map, and uses the exact same skill and combat system of the regular system. The list of computer tech elements, skills and programs is a couple pages, not an entire sourcebook. Fiddly enough for Hackers so they can work on getting better tech and coding new programs, but not a computer science sim.
#2 I have no idea, because I haven't seen the movie. If you're talking about Blade Runner, detective noir with classic cyberpunk elements, then that's probably served best by CP2020. If you're talking about B-movie action, well B-movie action is Savage World's raison-d'etre, always has been.
So, Interface 2.0 vs. Cyberpunk 2020Classic Genre Tropes - CP2020 without a doubt. There are classes, which essentially give you a specific skill that only your class has, that's really the only genre mechanic in there, but the tech and entire game is clearly Gibsonian. Setting of course, you control, so you can swing things anyway you want.
Combat - It looks like you're done with complexity, so IZ2 wins here, especially if you want to have the group take on a whole go-gang or the sec guards of a facility. CP2020 will run faster then SR5, definitely, but there will be bodies on the floor. IZ2 has Mook Rules though, so if you do away with those, much of the crazy fast combat slows down. That's the price of speed in SW.
Tech - Hard one to say. CP2020 is classic, IZ2 is more "New Cyberpunk" what I call "Post Ghost in the Shell". It has AR, augmented reality, cyborgs, androids, genetic nuhumans, mecha, low-end energy weapons/high-end kinetic weapons. Granted a lot of the Mirrorshades writers had those elements too, but the IZ2 aesthetic is clearly past Blade Runner timewise.
Hacking - IZ2 hands down. No map, less crunchy, no subsytems.
Martial Arts - CP2020, the Martial Arts system is cool and full of choices without adding a whole 'nother subsystem. IZ2 is much more generic.
Vehicles, Mechs - Both have these, both have a system that handles vehicle vs. vehicle as well as vehicle vs. character combat. Been a while since I've done vehicular combat in CP2020, my gut tells me the simpler IZ2 might be your choice there.
I like Shadowrun. I like it quite a bit. I've even written fanfiction for it.
5th edition however is utter diseased ass cancer. They took a base system that had hanging subsystems and actually made it WORSE! And that's ignoring the 3rd edition fetishism.
And then to split books into physical copies that have less material so they can then put the missing parts into a web supplement and expect you to pay for two splats that used to only be one.
Fuck every last one of you.
Yeebus you all make me so very very very glad I stuck with 1st ed and missed all the following nonsense!
Yes, sorry, it was 5e by Catalyst that has tried my patience. But the dice pool engine with too many contested rolls focus has been pretty consistently present since 1e FASA.
(FASA... I love your settings, I hate your systems. I sat back like a poached egg learning them from über fans, and hadn't the heart to criticize until more experience. Yet after the madness known as Mechwarrior, my patience runs thin. But that's an amateur's complaint and worthy for another time...)
I'm gonna sit back about Shadowrun hair splitting because I am nowhere near as invested in the system or its edition variants.
I really want to speed up my cyber-i-give-no-genre-fucks games without pulling out my fucking hair as players pull out their fucking phones from the game's drag ass.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;908697I like Shadowrun. I like it quite a bit. I've even written fanfiction for it.
5th edition however is utter diseased ass cancer. They took a base system that had hanging subsystems and actually made it WORSE! And that's ignoring the 3rd edition fetishism.
And then to split books into physical copies that have less material so they can then put the missing parts into a web supplement and expect you to pay for two splats that used to only be one.
Fuck every last one of you.
It is indeed the ass cancer... plus the diabetes, with arthritis, and scabies. It is such a shameless cash grab, I'm angry for my friends who bought it and feel taken — the anger radiates into other people. And the layout, copy pasta, & editing!...
But yeah, fuck that noise. Sweet crazy setting trapped under bullshit. Can't waste more lifetime fighting it when I can restart wholesale.
Quote from: CRKrueger;908693So, Interface 2.0 vs. Cyberpunk 2020
Classic Genre Tropes - CP2020 without a doubt. There are classes, which essentially give you a specific skill that only your class has, that's really the only genre mechanic in there, but the tech and entire game is clearly Gibsonian. Setting of course, you control, so you can swing things anyway you want.
Combat - It looks like you're done with complexity, so IZ2 wins here, especially if you want to have the group take on a whole go-gang or the sec guards of a facility. CP2020 will run faster then SR5, definitely, but there will be bodies on the floor. IZ2 has Mook Rules though, so if you do away with those, much of the crazy fast combat slows down. That's the price of speed in SW.
Tech - Hard one to say. CP2020 is classic, IZ2 is more "New Cyberpunk" what I call "Post Ghost in the Shell". It has AR, augmented reality, cyborgs, androids, genetic nuhumans, mecha, low-end energy weapons/high-end kinetic weapons. Granted a lot of the Mirrorshades writers had those elements too, but the IZ2 aesthetic is clearly past Blade Runner timewise.
Hacking - IZ2 hands down. No map, less crunchy, no subsytems.
Martial Arts - CP2020, the Martial Arts system is cool and full of choices without adding a whole 'nother subsystem. IZ2 is much more generic.
Vehicles, Mechs - Both have these, both have a system that handles vehicle vs. vehicle as well as vehicle vs. character combat. Been a while since I've done vehicular combat in CP2020, my gut tells me the simpler IZ2 might be your choice there.
Classic Genre Tropes is pretty high up on importance.
Combat speed is at a very high priority. But I also want to enjoy generalists and avoid/minimize munchkinism. I already heard the Savage Worlds issues with repeated shaken, (fixed yet?) and I already don't like the system for obfuscating probability through (i see as gimmicky) die sizes.
CP 2020 sounds super sexy with stat (1-10) + skill (1-10) + 1d10. As probability determinations go, that's sexy transparent and ready-made for on the fly adjudications.
Mook rules are dirt easy to add to any system (use "0th or 1st lvls!" :p) But if Savage has them baked into the cake for speed... not a strong sell. I hate having to reverse engineer something out instead of glom something on. I'm ok with death; I also know how to tweak (add mooks?) to make cakewalks.
I need more experience for how fast CP 2020 plays. Glowing commentary for Savage litters the internet — and I believe less than half of it from what I've seen of the system.
Tech New lists for toys is nice. Not completely sold that I need to upgrade to the new WiFi/matrix modern paradigm, because sometimes I want to play a "period piece."
My most important tech issue is transparent probability and known game breaking limits as examples (like restricted or banned weaponry or armor that mathematically make sense). From that I can design anything what I need. This is where SW swappable die sizes as a main stat function causes inconvenience.Hacking Won't lie, the minigame aspect of this can be a real issue. Part of me was ready to just hand Netrunner decks between two players to duke it out and report back.
How hard is it to scrap CP 2020 subsystem system and adopt IZ 2.0 solutions through CP 2020 core mechanics?
Martial Arts I didn't think of it as a priority, but yeah, that shit was huge back in the day. Kinda nice to have it just to have it just in case we need to have a shameful circle jerk in the future. Who knows, I may feel the desperate need to mix Terminator & Naruto for unspeakably stupid reasons in the future?
How stable and robust was CP 2020/ system here? Not baseline crazy into the American Ninja spectrum?
Vehicles This is kinda big. Seen too much nonsense from Shadowrun and Warhammer 40k that I just can't take it anymore. How robust is CP 2020 lists to actual play? No gaping "we have no fucking clue about real life weaponry let alone imaginary one! Wanna kung-fu the ATV in half? Take a cannon blast to the chest?"
Is it cogent enough that it passes the SWN common sense threshold? As in "Hand to Hand hasn't a prayer v. Ranged Large Arms, Ranged Arms hasn't a prayer v. Ground Ordinance, Ground Ordinance hasn't a prayer v. Air/Sea Ordinance, Air/Sea hasn't a prayer v. Space Ordinance,"?
I bowed out of the Shadowrun train during the big embezzlement scandal at Catalyst late(ish) in the 4E cycle. I glanced at the 5E book and decided it wasn't different enough to waste money on.
Sounds like I made an excellent choice.
Of course, I swear by CP2020... its one of a handful of games that I can run entirely without books. Sure, books are nice for knowing what all those bits of chrome actually (well, I actually could reproduce most of the core cybernetics from memory...), as well as the slightly more complex than useful gun stats (ditto... Ok, only the important bits, like Damage. And I can wing the rest!).
My advice for jumping into CP2020 is to bypass the Roles and the attendant Special Skills. Use the Roles as guidelines on skill sets, rather than actual classes. Of course, this monkeys a bit with starting cash (big whoop)... and unless you REALLY need to include a PC hacker, pass all hacking/netrunning/decking to an NPC who does their mojo at the speed of plot, off screen.
Cyberpunk also has some sort of world record for most high quality supplements ever! Every god damn book they released is a fucking gold mine, usually presenting some part of the game in an entirely new light, almost making mini-RPGs out of the core rules.
One of these days I'll have to sit down and re-read DeathNet for D20m.
Really interesting setting. Horrible CG art.
Quote from: Omega;908726One of these days I'll have to sit down and re-read DeathNet for D20m.
Really interesting setting. Horrible CG art.
Its gotta be better than Dolls.
:shudder:
Quote from: Opaopajr;908720It is indeed the ass cancer... plus the diabetes, with arthritis, and scabies. It is such a shameless cash grab, I'm angry for my friends who bought it and feel taken — the anger radiates into other people. And the layout, copy pasta, & editing!...
But yeah, fuck that noise. Sweet crazy setting trapped under bullshit. Can't waste more lifetime fighting it when I can restart wholesale.
I remember when the writers of Shadowrun were getting slammed with posts about how they were ablist and transphobic because of the essence limits to social rolls. Makes me laugh now, where as a few years ago I was fairly irritated by the whole thing.
I just don't have an sympathy left.
Quote from: CRKrueger;908693No RPG ever, has ever done anything in Real Time. Mechanics, no matter how simplistic or streamlined, will take longer than split-second actions, like pulling a trigger 5 times.
Out of curiosity, Lemmy, where do you place Amber RPG and its "derivatives" on the "RPG <-> not RPG" spectrum?
Opaopajr, I feel your pain.
I am working on a project (too fucking slowly) based on almost identical complaints.
In the meantime, I personally suggest two options. Use either D6, Savage Worlds or Buffy/Unisystem as the system (whichever works for you and your crew) and port over the Shadowrun setting bits you want.
Or pick up a copy of Shadowrun 1e.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;908742Out of curiosity, Lemmy, where do you place Amber RPG and its "derivatives" on the "RPG <-> not RPG" spectrum?
RPGs use dice!!
Quote from: Spinachcat;908745RPGs use dice!!
Indie/narrative/boardgames might use dice too. :D
Quote from: Spinachcat;908744Opaopajr, I feel your pain.
I am working on a project (too fucking slowly) based on almost identical complaints.
In the meantime, I personally suggest two options. Use either D6, Savage Worlds or Buffy/Unisystem as the system (whichever works for you and your crew) and port over the Shadowrun setting bits you want.
Or pick up a copy of Shadowrun 1e.
No, not 1e. Go with 2e if you're going Shadowrun. 1e was a mess.
Quote from: Spike;908734Its gotta be better than Dolls.
:shudder:
I... dont... know... about... that...
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic581515_lg.jpg)
Quote from: CRKrueger;908693No RPG ever, has ever done anything in Real Time.
Really?
OK, let's clarify what I mean by Real Time. It's just the opposite of Game Time, that's all. I am not expecting a Concurrent Resolution Speed (amazing if it could happen; give me time to check out your links, Kyle).
I am just expecting something within the sane (yes, subjective. deal with it, bitches.) spectrum. As in, "O/AD&D could resolve this shit with 5 players and 10 monsters in a football field size campus in under 5 minutes, if that. What's your damage that you can't?"
I'm just tired of the crunch excuses as I get older.
Ok, many of you are dancing around it and pointing to other systems besides CP 2020 for speed...
So let's get it out there in the open: how fucking slow and grindy is it? Delineate please, with examples. How fast to 5-(hu)man S.W.A.T. team a 5 room supermarket-sized compound with 10 bad guys (7 mooks) and grab the MacGuffin?
(PS: I think that movie damaged my servos, I'm impatient and more vulgar than usual on fora. Nemesis is like Viagra to reconnect to your inner 14 year old boy. I must be suffering withdrawals...)
Quote from: Spike;908725I bowed out of the Shadowrun train during the big embezzlement scandal at Catalyst late(ish) in the 4E cycle. I glanced at the 5E book and decided it wasn't different enough to waste money on.
Sounds like I made an excellent choice.
Of course, I swear by CP2020... its one of a handful of games that I can run entirely without books. Sure, books are nice for knowing what all those bits of chrome actually (well, I actually could reproduce most of the core cybernetics from memory...), as well as the slightly more complex than useful gun stats (ditto... Ok, only the important bits, like Damage. And I can wing the rest!).
My advice for jumping into CP2020 is to bypass the Roles and the attendant Special Skills. Use the Roles as guidelines on skill sets, rather than actual classes. Of course, this monkeys a bit with starting cash (big whoop)... and unless you REALLY need to include a PC hacker, pass all hacking/netrunning/decking to an NPC who does their mojo at the speed of plot, off screen.
Cyberpunk also has some sort of world record for most high quality supplements ever! Every god damn book they released is a fucking gold mine, usually presenting some part of the game in an entirely new light, almost making mini-RPGs out of the core rules.
This is good, very good. I want to pick your brain more. I also know someone with all the books, so perhaps I can squeeze some reading time in and get a better sense of it.
I love Star Wars WEG and the attendant free wheeling madness and fun. But sometimes I want to watch something more gritty for players. And then there's a limit where higher xp SW WEG seems to fly beyond what most of cyberpunk gonzo would accept into nigh-teflon heroics.
How would you compare CP2020 vs. d6, if I punched them in the feels?
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724I already heard the Savage Worlds issues with repeated shaken, (fixed yet?)
Possibly, depending on what your issues were. About a year or so ago, they changed the rules so that a success, rather than a raise, is enough to get you an action after you've been Shaken.
I want to point out that literary cyberpunk, cinematic cyberpunk, and RPG cyberpunk are all very different beasts with different genre tropes. "Gunporn" is largely nonexistent in literary cyberpunk. For that matter, so is most cyberware. Defining your expectations is vital. I'd argue the best game for literary cyberpunk is hands down Stolze's A Dirty World, because most literary cyberpunk is just noir in a near-future setting.
I found combat in CP2020 to take relatively little time, particularly when compared to Shadowrun 2e.
Now, when someone is decked out in full combat armor, or is a corp with orbital crystal cyberwear, it's going to take some time since armor subtracts from damage. But two guys in leather armored jackets and 0.38s going up against a dude with a shotgun is going to be a quick fight, one way or the other.
As far as magic goes, there was a supplement by a third part that covered that- Night's Edge. Between that and High Orbit (?) for the space / orbital platform stuff, I had pretty much what I needed.
Fun RPG trivia fact: "Night's Edge" was actually named as a play on the name of the old soap opera "The Edge of Night". I was given playtest notes to look at and they mentioned that they needed a title.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908772So let's get it out there in the open: how fucking slow and grindy is it? Delineate please, with examples. How fast to 5-(hu)man S.W.A.T. team a 5 room supermarket-sized compound with 10 bad guys (7 mooks) and grab the MacGuffin?
5e as noted in other threads can warp along pretty fast.
But hands down fastest is probably Albedo. Followed by Boot Hill.
For a straight up Cyberpunk RPG? Not sure really. SR combat can go fast. But even with a computer handling everything we had one Renrarku run take quite a while. But that was fully armed PCs and opponents at a top end mission. I am totally unfamilliar with CP2020's combat system. How fast would you say 5 PCs can work through 10 NPCs in say 2 groups of 5?
Quote from: daniel_ream;908780I want to point out that literary cyberpunk, cinematic cyberpunk, and RPG cyberpunk are all very different beasts with different genre tropes. "Gunporn" is largely nonexistent in literary cyberpunk. For that matter, so is most cyberware. Defining your expectations is vital. I'd argue the best game for literary cyberpunk is hands down Stolze's A Dirty World, because most literary cyberpunk is just noir in a near-future setting.
That's actually good to know. Dunno if I would feel the need to hunt down Stolze's A Dirty World when I could just port it over CoC/BRPs to do the noir heavy lifting. Not currently in a noir mood, but if I was interested in genre fidelity, that knowledge helps.
What does A Dirty World game offer that makes it worth getting if I wanna get my Blade Runner on?
Additional question, how "genre flexible" (pansexual? :p) is CP2020 if I wanna slip around between the genres?
Shadowrun is more campaign focused (predominantly mission-based), but somewhat lenient in genre, as there's locations in setting where I can really change hook focus and atmosphere.
But I would kinda like something both "genre flexible" and "campaign flexible." I basically want a quick running, yet not ultra-light, go-to system for when the 'near future' bug bites me and gives me hives of inspiration. Like an espresso shot with which I may dress up or down as it suits me, a light to med-light toolbox if you will.
Quote from: daniel_ream;908780I want to point out that literary cyberpunk, cinematic cyberpunk, and RPG cyberpunk are all very different beasts with different genre tropes. "Gunporn" is largely nonexistent in literary cyberpunk. For that matter, so is most cyberware. Defining your expectations is vital. I'd argue the best game for literary cyberpunk is hands down Stolze's A Dirty World, because most literary cyberpunk is just noir in a near-future setting.
Good point.
Alot of Literary Cyperpunk tends to the investigative, Cinematic tends to the shootouts and explosions, while RPG CP tends to stealth and sneaking as it were. Trying to not get noticed while you do whatever. But handles everything really.
Quote from: Spike;908725I bowed out of the Shadowrun train during the big embezzlement scandal at Catalyst late(ish) in the 4E cycle.
Same here. If I
ever want to run again a Shadowrun campaign, there's SR2, SR3 and even SR4. The pre-scandal books are more than enough.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908774This is good, very good. I want to pick your brain more. I also know someone with all the books, so perhaps I can squeeze some reading time in and get a better sense of it.
I love Star Wars WEG and the attendant free wheeling madness and fun. But sometimes I want to watch something more gritty for players. And then there's a limit where higher xp SW WEG seems to fly beyond what most of cyberpunk gonzo would accept into nigh-teflon heroics.
How would you compare CP2020 vs. d6, if I punched them in the feels?
Its a lot easier to check your math in Cyberpunk than d6? I dunno, man> the last time I played D6 starwars we had some NPC from the books tossing 14+ dice at us to force us on the GM's railroad plot, so I may be a bit biased.
From what I recall of d6 systems, its pretty easy to be tough and take a few hits 'for the team'. Cyberpunk don't play that. As a GM I found it difficult not to wipe the party out with two bit thugs. The key is to go light on the cool toys. Don't pack your mooks with assault rifles unless the players are running around in Metal Gear (TM!). Encourage the players to actually plan their fights, rather than dropping random wandering combat on them. One head hit (10% of shots) from a medium pistol (9mm basically) will put almost any character not wearing a helmet into lethal damage every time. That's a 'massive' 2d6+1 damage roll. An assault rifle does 7d6, and it only goes up from there.
So, wadda ya wanna know?
For cyberpunk I tend to advocate using homebrew fluff over a savage worlds rules setting. The problem with the established cyberpunk RPGs, in my view, is that they are too tied to mirrorshades era cyberpunk. The setting is compelling, but at times I feel like I'm walking through a history book of the future. The fundamental pillars of mirrorshades just aren't tangible anymore for most people born in the 1990's. The Zaibatsu turned out to be horribly inefficient ways of running companies. The net went from a wild west into a much more corporatized and controlled tool for enhancing reality rather than replacing it with a cyberworld. Japan kind of collapsed. The wild conspiracy era of the 1990's made sense when we didn't actually have major threats to worry about. Cyborg implants are coming around, and shockingly they don't really mess with your soul.
In return, I actually feel like the modern world offers a lot more potential for cyberpunk. As the economy becomes more data and tech driven, industrial espionage is going to become increasingly important. Also, data security is becoming harder every year. It makes sense for companies to turned to closed off intranets. Right there, you have a reason for people to be breaking into places. Heck, the massive Target hack happened because someone sniffed out a backdoor through a small time ventilation company. There's a ton of threads you can pick up on and turn to 11 to create a relatable cyberpunk world. You still need to create an "adventuring paradigm," but that can be solved through going full noir and focusing entirely on planning, legwork and avoiding combat for the most part. The other option, (what I do) is have a situation where the government is encouraging ruthless competition, so as long as no bystanders get caught in the crossfire, they don't care what corps do to each other.
This is especially true for campaigns set in Africa or the Middle East these days. The Democratic Republic of the Congo is basically cyberpunk come to life. Companies fighting over territory, coopted governments, growing importance of tech. I'm currently running a campaign centered around Kinshasa and it's really easy to have plausible answers why the police don't care if you and a corp's security team are getting into firefights. Industrial espionage makes a ton of sense when billions of dollars in minerals are on the line. Nairobi, and it's booming tech center, also offers a lot of rich potential. Companies have already turned to the African continent to do testing they otherwise wouldn't be able to do. It doesn't stretch plausibility to think that this could turn into a booming biotech industry, with all the ruthless competition that could follow.
I can post my setting if people are interested, and I know it's not the best answer as OP was looking for a system to plug into, but for young'uns like me, there's a lot more potential for relatable cyberpunk settings in the real world, vs the 1980's view of how things would be.
I agree with your post, but if I might, I'd like to address this one, specific element:
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908876Cyborg implants are coming around, and shockingly they don't really mess with your soul.
I feel we're still long from seeing that kind of cyber-enhancements as presented by CP work of fictions/RPGs. And judging by how smartphones (and similar pieces of mobile hardware) changes the way people think, act and interact with each other and the environment, I wouldn't scrap the idea of "no influence on soul". ;)
Quote from: JesterRaiin;908877I feel we're still long from seeing that kind of cyber-enhancements as presented by CP work of fictions/RPGs. And judging by how smartphones (and similar pieces of mobile hardware) changes the way people think, act and interact with each other and the environment, I wouldn't scrap the idea of "no influence on soul". ;)
I definitely see where your coming from, and agree with the smartphone bit. But we are already starting to see bionic leg and arm replacements, ocular implants, hearing implants, ect so the fundamentals aren't that far off. I honestly think the Deus Ex approach to cyberware is the best. Rather than it be the cyberware that changes you, it's how people treat those who were enhanced that creates the real impact. It's the people who think that you're a wealthy cheater buying your way through life by enhancing your brain with implants that causes you to feel less human. I think it offers a lot more roleplaying situations for the player, as they are playing off of how other people treat them, and have more real life experience to work with (all those times you felt like shit because you had X that allowed you to get an edge your friends didn't).
In magical cyberpunk settings, I'm more okay with messing with the soul, but even then I'm not sure if it works the way it should. Shadowrun forces you to chose magic or tech, which functionally speaking is just forcing you to chose one form of technology or another, in a way. An idea I posted on the Gaming Den's "brain hacking thread" two years ago (left within two months of joining, didn't sign up to a new forum until now because of how bad the experience was) was that something should be lost both through tech or magic. In both cases you are becoming less "human", by using outside powers to enhance yourself. I kind of wanted "where man meets magic and machine" to be about man choosing to remain human or turn to the other options. But then again, I'm a "humanity, fuck yeah" kind of person so it might just be my bias showing off.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908880I definitely see where your coming from, and agree with the smartphone bit. But we are already starting to see bionic leg and arm replacements, ocular implants, hearing implants, ect so the fundamentals aren't that far off. I honestly think the Deus Ex approach to cyberware is the best. Rather than it be the cyberware that changes you, it's how people treat those who were enhanced that creates the real impact. It's the people who think that you're a wealthy cheater buying your way through life by enhancing your brain with implants that causes you to feel less human. I think it offers a lot more roleplaying situations for the player, as they are playing off of how other people treat them, and have more real life experience to work with (all those times you felt like shit because you had X that allowed you to get an edge your friends didn't).
So "modelling a mindset" rather than "direct influence"? With that I can agree. :)
Side note: Deus Ex.
I wish this was entirely different forum, so we could've drown in a deep discussion dedicated to the series alone. Oh well...
QuoteIn magical cyberpunk settings, I'm more okay with messing with the soul, but even then I'm not sure if it works the way it should. Shadowrun forces you to chose magic or tech, which functionally speaking is just forcing you to chose one form of technology or another, in a way. An idea I posted on the Gaming Den's "brain hacking thread" two years ago (left within two months of joining, didn't sign up to a new forum until now because of how bad the experience was) was that something should be lost both through tech or magic. In both cases you are becoming less "human", by using outside powers to enhance yourself. I kind of wanted "where man meets magic and machine" to be about man choosing to remain human or turn to the other options. But then again, I'm a "humanity, fuck yeah" kind of person so it might just be my bias showing off.
To this day I don't understand the idea of being forced to select one path only as presented by a few games. After all, plenty of real-world scientists still believed in some esoteric/mystical stuff and it didn't prevent them from studying the world in very scientific way.
I feel that the better representation would be to allow a PC to follow both paths but become more distanced from the society - the viewpoint modeled after "science + magic makes the world go 'round" would make one's ideas hard to grasp, hard to follow, requiring very specific mind to understand and sympathize. Still, it's me.
And another side note: I miss one of a recently banned users. The guy's taste in CP-related works of fiction would be highly compatible with this thread... Oh well...
Quote from: JesterRaiin;908886So "modelling a mindset" rather than "direct influence"? With that I can agree. :)
Side note: Deus Ex.
I wish this was entirely different forum, so we could've drown in a deep discussion dedicated to the series alone. Oh well...
To this day I don't understand the idea of being forced to select one path only as presented by a few games. After all, plenty of real-world scientists still believed in some esoteric/mystical stuff and it didn't prevent them from studying the world in very scientific way.
I feel that the better representation would be to allow a PC to follow both paths but become more distanced from the society - the viewpoint modeled after "science + magic makes the world go 'round" would make one's ideas hard to grasp, hard to follow, requiring very specific mind to understand and sympathize. Still, it's me.
And another side note: I miss one of a recently banned users. The guy's taste in CP-related works of fiction would be highly compatible with this thread... Oh well...
It's mostly because of Timmies and role protections. There's always going to be that guy (who probably posts to the gaming den) who's going to break the system and turn the entire campaign into a gigantic wank fest over his character. Sociopathy and social coldness isn't a negative to someone who wants to play a murderhobo. Personally, I kind of like the tech vs. magic thing, as you have the spirit world rebelling against man's tools and vice versa. One of the reasons why I like Arcana so much, despite the gameplay being atrocious. One of my fixes tends to be to divide up the "face" of the party role between everyone. Let them have distinct roles in combat and preparing for missions, but roleplaying wise I tend to play it off that every segment of society has personality types that favors one guy or another. Badass biker bar is going to react better to roided up cyborg, for example. That way people are distinct in the crunch, but have equal chances to work with the fluff. Shadowrun Returns did it very well with balancing intelligence, charisma and strength as equally viable conversation approaches.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908893It's mostly because of Timmies and role protections. There's always going to be that guy (who probably posts to the gaming den) who's going to break the system and turn the entire campaign into a gigantic wank fest over his character. Sociopathy and social coldness isn't a negative to someone who wants to play a murderhobo. Personally, I kind of like the tech vs. magic thing, as you have the spirit world rebelling against man's tools and vice versa. One of the reasons why I like Arcana so much, despite the gameplay being atrocious. One of my fixes tends to be to divide up the "face" of the party role between everyone. Let them have distinct roles in combat and preparing for missions, but roleplaying wise I tend to play it off that every segment of society has personality types that favors one guy or another. Badass biker bar is going to react better to roided up cyborg, for example. That way people are distinct in the crunch, but have equal chances to work with the fluff. Shadowrun Returns did it very well with balancing intelligence, charisma and strength as equally viable conversation approaches.
Well, "rules can't cure stupid", like people use to say.
In my case, I usually tend to talk with people prior to a session and ask them to prepare characters that I think are best suited for the gameplay, so that everyone has something to do in many different situation, instead of sitting in the shadows, playing Pokemon Go and activating his character (and attention) only in specific conditions.
I also try to avoid people who prefer to break the game rather than play it. ;)
Arcana, Arcana... We're talking about
Arcanum, right?
If you're addressing the "mechanical" part of the game (flawed UI, idiotic keybinds), then I recall a few mods that greatly change the gameplay and make the experience much more bearable.
Side note:
Arcanum -> Pathfinder translation project. (http://arcanumd20pf.wikia.com/wiki/Arcanum:_Pathfinder_Wiki). It's far from being finished, and apparently abandoned, but it's playable even at this stage.
Right, I dun goofed, Arcanum. I've checked out the mods, but honestly its not UI or Keybinds, its the fact that the fundamental gameplay sucks and a wonderful game world was ruined by tons of trashmobs and crappy combat. That and the dialogue trees are the most unforgiving I have ever seen. Usually games give you a heads up on "this is the dialogue your buffed speech skill unlocked", but Arcanum gave no warning as to what was the better option and rarely gave you side paths to achieving the same result. Solving the orc labor dispute is damn near impossible without having done it before or using an internet guide.
As for rules, I tend to run long campaigns, so I have more time to build them around the characters. I also go down the classic delta green route and give people large packages of knowledge at the start, as often knowledge tends to be gimped character build wise. Plus, I almost exclusively use Savage Worlds, where its a lot harder to build broken characters. My main issue is that I've lived in a lot of areas where RPG's aren't as well established, and my personal tastes go into Swine territory (yes, I'm a storygamer). As such, I have to find ways to integrate the pathfinder or DnD crowd, who tend to want to powergame.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908902Right, I dun goofed, Arcanum. I've checked out the mods, but honestly its not UI or Keybinds, its the fact that the fundamental gameplay sucks and a wonderful game world was ruined by tons of trashmobs and crappy combat. That and the dialogue trees are the most unforgiving I have ever seen. Usually games give you a heads up on "this is the dialogue your buffed speech skill unlocked", but Arcanum gave no warning as to what was the better option and rarely gave you side paths to achieving the same result. Solving the orc labor dispute is damn near impossible without having done it before or using an internet guide.
It has been a while since I've been playing it, so unless I'm mistaking
Arcanum for some other game, I recall this being addressed. People usually respond that there's no "bad option" in Arcanum, that lack of information concerning which sentence is unlocked by what prerequisite forces the player to respond according to their personal needs, "roleplay" rather than pick the obviously best option.
It's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, especially not in our times.
QuoteAs for rules, I tend to run long campaigns, so I have more time to build them around the characters. I also go down the classic delta green route and give people large packages of knowledge at the start, as often knowledge tends to be gimped character build wise. Plus, I almost exclusively use Savage Worlds, where its a lot harder to build broken characters. My main issue is that I've lived in a lot of areas where RPG's aren't as well established, and my personal tastes go into Swine territory (yes, I'm a storygamer). As such, I have to find ways to integrate the pathfinder or DnD crowd, who tend to want to powergame.
Reasonable. To accommodate oneself to the circumstances is to stay alive. ;)
tbh. I don't exactly understand the idea of specialized players - those who select only one game (or a few very closely related) and insist on playing it all the time, rather than switch systems/settings/games every now and then. I mean, I know it's quite common, I understand the motivation behind it ("if ain't broke don't fix/change it"), but it's hard for me to accept it.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908876Industrial espionage makes a ton of sense when billions of dollars in minerals are on the line.
How so? Unlike data, minerals have mass and size. A corporate spy can't steal 10 tons of iridium and hide it in her shiny, aluminum briefcase.
QuoteIt doesn't stretch plausibility to think that this could turn into a booming biotech industry, with all the ruthless competition that could follow.
Now stealing genetic data or gene-tailored cell lines does make sense. And while it is a bit trite, evil pharma and biotech companies are an easy source for RPG villainy.
And though I'm not a Shadowrun fan and don't play cyberpunk, you should still totally post stuff for people to [strike]hack[/strike] use.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;908886I wish this was entirely different forum, so we could've drown in a deep discussion dedicated to the series alone.
We have a 5000 page thread which is mostly one nice old guy reminiscing about old times in Tekumel.
Start a thread. If people are interested, they will post.
And before anyone gets their panties in a twist, I started that thread and I'm almost as old as Chirine.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;908911It has been a while since I've been playing it, so unless I'm mistaking Arcanum for some other game, I recall this being addressed. People usually respond that there's no "bad option" in Arcanum, that lack of information concerning which sentence is unlocked by what prerequisite forces the player to respond according to their personal needs, "roleplay" rather than pick the obviously best option.
It's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, especially not in our times.
Reasonable. To accommodate oneself to the circumstances is to stay alive. ;)
tbh. I don't exactly understand the idea of specialized players - those who select only one game (or a few very closely related) and insist on playing it all the time, rather than switch systems/settings/games every now and then. I mean, I know it's quite common, I understand the motivation behind it ("if ain't broke don't fix/change it"), but it's hard for me to accept it.
While I do enjoy roleplaying, the problem with CRPGs vs face to face is that they tend to be binary. Let's say there are three different options for that labor strike, all of which are supportive or offer alternative solutions. In a CRPG, most likely only one of them is going to be the one that actually ends it the way I want it to end. All of them also seem equally appealing from a roleplaying point of view, as I am a labor supporter in favor of orc rights. As such, I don't know which one of these flavors is going to accomplish what I want. This is why that signaling is so important. It tells the players "amongst the options you like and fit your character, this is the one that uses your character to the fullest and accomplishes your end goal." If I were face to face with a gm, I could creatively persuade him. With a computer, you're basically playing a character design puzzle. This is why branching solutions are so important, as they allow you to "fail" the character design puzzle and still roleplay your ideal end state. Assembling evidence, hidden away in a defended lair, which convinces the orc labor leader to stand down, allows a fighter character to still support orc labor rights and push the world where you want it to go, but without the arbitrary charisma or speech skill cap.
For me, I tend to stick to savage worlds because RPG systems can be very complex and tough to master. Until you master them, especially as a GM, roleplaying is extremely difficult and gameplay flow can be broken up. Plus, RPGs are quite setting dependent, so in order to play a character who grew up in the world you tend to need to do a substantial amount of reading to be able to understand what your character has experienced.
Quote from: Bren;908914How so? Unlike data, minerals have mass and size. A corporate spy can't steal 10 tons of iridium and hide it in her shiny, aluminum briefcase.
Now stealing genetic data or gene-tailored cell lines does make sense. And while it is a bit trite, evil pharma and biotech companies are an easy source for RPG villainy.
And though I'm not a Shadowrun fan and don't play cyberpunk, you should still totally post stuff for people to [strike]hack[/strike] use.
Geological surveys of mineral fields are incredibly expensive and could potentially be worth billions of dollars. Back during the early Kabila years in the DRC (early 2000's) he was buying the support of major traders and mercenaries with geological data alone. Finding out where your competitors found a new vein of Cobalt could be worth millions to the right people, and well worth sending in a team to break and enter. Or, better yet, finding out who's taking bribes in the region those fields are, so you can then flip them, seize the land, and start mining ASAP.
As for Bio-Tech, I tend to avoid playing the companies as straight up evil. Say you have a company cutting corners with HIV treatment tests in Niger that go wrong. The company may have been trying to make a few extra bucks, but the people who run it also probably actually wanted to help the fight against HIV. There are few people who consciously act evilly, for the most part the value system they exist in provides a framework for how they think, the results of which can lead to evil. Playing with those value systems is, in my view, what makes Cyberpunk such a fun genre when done well. When done poorly (Shadowrun), it just becomes a wankfest about how much capitalism sucks.
I'll definitely do a write up of my Africa-Punk setting. Living in Rwanda for half a year gave me a ton of ideas for modern RPGs
Quote from: Bren;908915We have a 5000 page thread which is mostly one nice old guy reminiscing about old times in Tekumel.
Start a thread. If people are interested, they will post.
Naaah, I have enough bad rep already. No need for "...and now the guy talks about vidya! On my tabletop RPG-related forum! Woe is us, hear us, oh Lord"... and such. Those hurt butts need time to heal. ;)
Quote from: JesterRaiin;908936Naaah, I have enough bad rep already. No need for "...and now the guy talks about vidya! On my tabletop RPG-related forum! Woe is us, hear us, oh Lord"... and such. Those hurt butts need time to heal. ;)
We have a video games forum, Other Games.
Ok Opa
Initiative1d10+Ref+(Ref Boosts if you have them)+(Solo Combat Sense if you are one) Fast Draw lets you add +3 Init and -3 penalty.
ActionsYou get one unless you take an additional action at -3. Shoot three guys? Sure, -6 to all three shots.
Shooting- You need a target number based on range, this varies from 5 to 30 stepping by 5.
- You roll REF+Skill+1d10. This will have bonuses or penalties based on scopes, movement, lighting, etc. It's like any other list of mods, you internalize it quickly.
- There is 3 round burst, autofire, and suppressing fire.
- Armor soaks damage.
- There are hit locations, but that is used only to determine whether you have armor coverage where you are hit. Your wound pool is the same. A bullet in the arm and one in the leg takes off of total body injury. (Head shots do double damage.)
- You have a body type modifier that absorbs damage just like in Warhammer Toughness (weapon damage and armor values though make Naked Samurai Syndrome unlikely).
So how fast is it? A guy walks into a bar with a shotgun or an assault rifle where there's not good cover, it's splattertime.
You have guys armored up, taking cover that absorbs fire like concrete or steel and being careful, you'll have to level the building to get them out.
It's the only system I'll have to say makes sense. All the stupid little abstractions and dissociations that creep their way into other firearms rules aren't really here. Everything for the most part makes sense and is related to actual values of the elements in the real world. Simulation gets a bad name because of Phoenix Command and the like, but CP2020 proved you can do firearms right.
Order of speed:
Player sending Tweet/short IM
Player's Turn in Friday Night Firefight
Player Sending Email
Player's Turn with multiple guys using Supressive Fire in the same turn.
Wow, that's like the dream ideas hammered out by friends seeking to make their own system. Totally going to forward that info to them.
Seems very discrete in components (range increment penalties; environmental and equipment mods as desired; armor soaks; hit location checks armor coverage; etc.). That actually saves time for any dialing up or down of these components. I'd almost say modular, as the parts seem removable to change for genre needs -- but perhaps that may cause unforeseen chaos.
I'd appreciate any learning failures from house ruling. What should I not tinker with? How strong is this chassis for DIY madness?
i.e. I am wondering if it would be faster to emulate Cinematic Cyberpunk (when the mood strikes!) by just adding Plot Armor as actual armor with defined soak + coverage? Or would it be better to use a higher "Toughness" value and heavily restrict armor availability?
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908918I'll definitely do a write up of my Africa-Punk setting. Living in Rwanda for half a year gave me a ton of ideas for modern RPGs
Do it. Please.
Quote from: Bren;908914Now stealing genetic data or gene-tailored cell lines does make sense. And while it is a bit trite, evil pharma and biotech companies are an easy source for RPG villainy.
And though I'm not a Shadowrun fan and don't play cyberpunk, you should still totally post stuff for people to [strike]hack[/strike] use.
TSR did for Amazing Engine a setting called Chromesome. Which was a Biopunk setting where biotech and genemods had taken off instead of cybernetics.
CRKrueger's response was 100% spot on. I'll try to add a little more context.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Classic Genre Tropes is pretty high up on importance.
As CRKrueger said - CP2020 is oldschool cyberpunk and IZ2 is very much new-school. Though a lot of the elements of artificial life etc. could be found in later supplementary material for CP2020, you could even yank psionics from Mekton (or anything else for that matter, the Interlock system is exactly the same except for CP2020 uses static combat numbers for range attacks and Mekton allowed contested rolls).
The setting splats that were not strictly CP2020 also offered additional stuff that could neatly be tucked into CP2020's standard setting.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Combat speed is at a very high priority. But I also want to enjoy generalists and avoid/minimize munchkinism. I already heard the Savage Worlds issues with repeated shaken, (fixed yet?) and I already don't like the system for obfuscating probability through (i see as gimmicky) die sizes.
CP 2020 sounds super sexy with stat (1-10) + skill (1-10) + 1d10. As probability determinations go, that's sexy transparent and ready-made for on the fly adjudications.
After running a few combats with CP2020 - it flows blisteringly fast. Once you understand the damage-track and the increments, which is pretty easy, you will not even need to reference any table. And it can get pretty fucking lethal, as intended. CP2020 combat is designed for players to play smart. Play stupid, you'll end up dead pretty quickly.
The key to CP2020 and avoiding munckinism is to simply enforce the conceits already built into the game. Handguns are generally legal. Most hard body-armors require special permits. If you think walking about the city with a full-auto combat weapon out, you better expect some Police attention. All common-sense stuff. Outside the city, that's a different matter, obviously. I *highly* recommend reading "Home of the Brave" which is the America splatbook that covers *everything*. I'd also recommend reading 'Protect and Serve' - the Cop splatbook that covers all the procedural stuff on the law.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Mook rules are dirt easy to add to any system (use "0th or 1st lvls!" :p) But if Savage has them baked into the cake for speed... not a strong sell. I hate having to reverse engineer something out instead of glom something on. I'm ok with death; I also know how to tweak (add mooks?) to make cakewalks.
CP2020 doesn't really need mook rules. Any damage taken in the game initiates a deathspiral that remarkably simulates the gritty reality of the genre. Getting patched up is expensive and a whip. It makes players with itchy trigger-fingers that manage to survive (and retain those fingers) more cautious. Literally anyone can die in a gunfight with a good shot. And PC's tend to be good shots as a rule (but not always).
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724I need more experience for how fast CP 2020 plays. Glowing commentary for Savage litters the internet — and I believe less than half of it from what I've seen of the system.
As I said before - after a couple of combats you'll absorb the damage track. Essentially every wound you take forces a Stun Save - modified with your BTM rating. As you take more damage your Stun penalty rises. Every four-wounds kicks you into a new stage. Each stage levies a higher stun penalty. When you get to the Mortal Stage - you're making Death Saves on top of Stun Saves. Since it goes to Mortal 10 - that means no character can take more than 40-points of damage. Most characters are dead *long* before that.
It goes *fast* barring the damage-phase where you might have to roll a lot of damage dice. The combat system "Friday Night Firefight" was designed to be "realistic" in the sense that gun-combat is extremely lethal. And it is. My general policy as a GM and players is that, combat is the last resort. But ya'know how it is.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Tech New lists for toys is nice. Not completely sold that I need to upgrade to the new WiFi/matrix modern paradigm, because sometimes I want to play a "period piece."
One of the things that many newer cyberpunk games tends of give short-shrift on is the life outside of the "Blade Runner-like cities" that help establish the bonfides of the game. CP2020 is no different, however the setting books "Home of the Brave" and the Nomad book "Neo-Tribes" paint a much broader picture of the setting that still uses conventional, almost post-apocalyptic conventions to describe life. So it's life with less "cyber", using conventional, even archaic weaponry that still are very much serviceable. In this respect "less is more" serves the game and the genre very well for rounding out possibilities of play. Aspects of the Road Warrior and Waterworld can and do exist in CP2020.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724My most important tech issue is transparent probability and known game breaking limits as examples (like restricted or banned weaponry or armor that mathematically make sense). From that I can design anything what I need. This is where SW swappable die sizes as a main stat function causes inconvenience.
CP2020 is very transparent with a few quibbles. Damage breakdowns is simple: caliber of round produces *generally* the same damage. 5.56 rounds? 5d6 damage. 7.62 rounds? 6d6+2. etc. You almost always know what you're getting. What differentiates weapons is the quality of the gun itself. Some guns give you accuracy bonuses, some don't. Poor quality weapons jam on a 1. Etc. Also, your ammo can have qualities themselves: High-explosive rounds, Armor Piercing, the dreaded Depleted Uranium rounds etc.
What is legal and not legal is covered lightly in the main book, but covered extensively in Protect and Serve, and Home of the Brave. Mind you - there are permits for everything, but even having a permit will not necessarily save you against cops that think you're a menace. Generally handguns are legal, most military grade and heavy weaponry is highly restricted.
Armor tops out with Metal Gear - a brand of hard armor that essentially absorbs 30-points on every body-part. So yeah - on average, most bullets are going to bounce right off. Wearing that kind of armor attracts attention obviously. And there are armor-options as well. Memory Plastic will harden armor against AP rounds etc. There *are* armors heavier than Metal Gear - but they're very rare/specialized. The key to understanding how dangerous CP2020 combat is that even if you're wearing Metal Gear, someone opens up full-auto on you in close range, for example, with say a 6 Reflex and 6 Rifle skill - would only need a 15 to hit. An average roll would be 17 (5 on d10 +12 for Ref/skill) - plus full-auto would be an additional +3, not counting other features. So you're looking at a total of a 20. The rules for full-auto state that for every point scored over the target number to hit equals being struck by 1 bullet.
That means your guy with 30 armor just got hit 5-times for 6d6+2 each. Yeah he might live, but he's gonna be chewed the fuck up (damage lowers armor by 1 point per hit). This is where combat might slow up a bit. But it's generally not too bad.
That's about as extreme as it gets barring heavy weaponry, and head-shots etc.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Hacking Won't lie, the minigame aspect of this can be a real issue. Part of me was ready to just hand Netrunner decks between two players to duke it out and report back.
How hard is it to scrap CP 2020 subsystem system and adopt IZ 2.0 solutions through CP 2020 core mechanics?
Aint' gonna lie - it'll take a full re-write. That said, I'd have to go over it, I think modifying the CP2020 rules to follow the IZ2 is the *exact* direction it should go. I think it can be done but I'd have to sit down and really give it a deep dive. My gut reaction is it could be done tentatively with little pain. It would absolutely change some of the aspects of CP2020's netrunning - but that's not a bad thing.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Martial Arts I didn't think of it as a priority, but yeah, that shit was huge back in the day. Kinda nice to have it just to have it just in case we need to have a shameful circle jerk in the future. Who knows, I may feel the desperate need to mix Terminator & Naruto for unspeakably stupid reasons in the future?
How stable and robust was CP 2020/ system here? Not baseline crazy into the American Ninja spectrum?
Baseline - Martial Arts in the main book is potentially dangerous. It's *easy* to do and pretty fun. Once you start getting characters with cyberware and doing Muay Thai kicks with their cyberlegs - the damage is pretty brutal. But then it probably should be.
If you want to take it to the next level - you need the Pacific Rim book. They re-work the entire martial-arts systems into something more granular - with actual melee combat ranges of kicking, striking, trapping, and grappling. And lots of manuevers etc. I think, personally it was cool, but a bit overdone - but nothing you can't reign in as needed. If you want that dangerous hand-to-hand guy that is straight beating-that-ass, CP2020 has you covered - with the caveat that no one is fool-proof against a bullet to the melon.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Vehicles This is kinda big. Seen too much nonsense from Shadowrun and Warhammer 40k that I just can't take it anymore. How robust is CP 2020 lists to actual play? No gaping "we have no fucking clue about real life weaponry let alone imaginary one! Wanna kung-fu the ATV in half? Take a cannon blast to the chest?"
This one is easy. Vehicles are like dragons. *NO* cybered-up goon PC is going to take a vehicle weapon shot without either 1) being blown to smithereens 2) so badly damaged the next round is going to be spent looking up at the guy that just showed you, with his vehicle-mounted 20mm cannon, how mortal you actually are, and deliver you a soliloquy about what a dumb fucking retard you are thinking you could take a shot from his weapon, then blowing your armor-plated head off.
Heavy Weapons in CP2020 do *a lot* of damage. And they cut through armor (halved by default). The damage alone is usually enough to fuck you all the way to Valhalla's sloppy doorstep. Splash damage is applied *to every limb*. So yeah. The only way to reliably take out a vehicle is with another vehicle or having portable anti-vehicle weaponry. Can a PC damage an armored vehicle with cutting edge cyber-tech? Sure. But it will be pretty minimal. If you're talking about regular civilian vehicles - yeah you can chew those up pretty good.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908724Is it cogent enough that it passes the SWN common sense threshold? As in "Hand to Hand hasn't a prayer v. Ranged Large Arms, Ranged Arms hasn't a prayer v. Ground Ordinance, Ground Ordinance hasn't a prayer v. Air/Sea Ordinance, Air/Sea hasn't a prayer v. Space Ordinance,"?
Absolutely. With a couple of caveats. A PC can specialize in Hand-to-Hand and do quite well against gun-wielding opponents... if he can get into melee. If not? He's probably fucked. But the stakes go up higher from there with each category you named. The demarcation line is when you go from regular ordinance to anti-vehicle ordinance. There are very very narrow exceptions to this rule, and they're almost non-existent beyond this line.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908994Wow, that's like the dream ideas hammered out by friends seeking to make their own system. Totally going to forward that info to them.
I'd appreciate any learning failures from house ruling. What should I not tinker with? How strong is this chassis for DIY madness?
i.e. I am wondering if it would be faster to emulate Cinematic Cyberpunk (when the mood strikes!) by just adding Plot Armor as actual armor with defined soak + coverage? Or would it be better to use a higher "Toughness" value and heavily restrict armor availability?
Most heavy armor have what is called an EV Rating (Encumberance Rating) That number directly subtracts from your Reflex stat while wearing that armor. So it's something you can play with. You can also use some of the optional rules from the later printings - like Layering Armor (which I find a useful rule if you wanna get more granular).
There is very little that isn't common-sense once you understand the perspective the mechanics are trying to simulate.
There were no houserules I can think of that I didn't lift directly from Mekton. If I wanted a more cinematic game with less realism, I'd allow for defensive rolls rather than static target-numbers to hit. It requires ZERO work to port in. There's endless little tweaks you can do and justify with new gear. Just be careful about handing out big-ass weapons without corresponding social consequences (unless you're running a military game or something). Some of the big standard weapons can be scary.
Yeah, with Combat Sense for Solos and Reflex Boosters (which you could up the effects of a tad), using a Reflex test to avoid combat you can easily get into Bullet Time for the Cybergods.
CP2020 is completely old school rules in the sense that the rules model the world, balance comes from the setting, ie. you, not the designer.
I've run some games like that and yeah - it was crazy shit. Very over the top and Matrix as fuck.
Combat Sense in CP2020 only works on Initiative and Awareness checks - not "to hit" rolls. It USED to work for "to hit" rolls in the original Cyberpunk 2013.
Even still - Solos are dangerous as hell, as they should be.
In a game where guns are as deadly (deadlier?) than they are in real life, he who shoots first tends to be dangerous...
... assuming a better than real life level of accuracy however
the scary part being - you can do a called shot to any part of the body. 8 points of actual damage to any single limb at one time (after BTM modifiers) means that limb is rendered useless (unless it's a cyberlimb).
and head-shots are double-damage. Which makes having stylish headgear a pain in the ass if you care about looking good. And you always wanna look good in Cyberpunk!
Things to watch out for in CP2020:
Your realism has limits. They go on about the 9mm vs .45 thing and then assign them the same damage code (2d6+1). Cyberpunk doesn't differentiate between non-special rounds with high penetration vs high tissue damage. So your best armor penetrator for common usage winds up being a 10ga slug.
Limp mode. The hit locations as written give you a 40% chance to hit the legs. I didn't like it and went with the same chance of hitting the legs as the arms (since most people are firing at the CoM and you're about as likely to hit the smaller arms while doing that as you are to hit the (relatively) immobile legs below your target zone. So I just changed the hit location chart to 1 - Head 2-6 Torso, 7- RArm, 8-LArm, 9-RLeg, 10-LLeg. Also, keep in mind that the maximum damage a character can take to a limb is 12 before the limb suffers a traumatic amputation. Not so for the torso.
Critical Failures. I think a 10% chance of fumbling every roll is a bit high. I had a situation where a group of solos pulled a three stooges set of rolls and shot each other, the principal, their super expensive guns exploded, and they bled out. Great comedy, but it ended that game.
Watch out for armor creep. Had a martial artist that was running around in 26 points of soft armor with an EV of 1 due to the armor layering rules. The character was getting fitted for "totally not cyberware" powergloves (sort of like power armor sleeves) when I had her ambushed and filled her full of holes for it. But shotguns are a good equalizer. They can shred up soft armor.
As for the combat sense bit.. the best representation of Combat Sense ad nausea was in The Fifth Element, when Bruce Willis' character first came up to the aliens holding hostages on the bridge. He pokes his eyes around the corner and identifies them all (CS+Awareness/Notice+INT+d10 for combat situations) then pops around on his (CS+REF+d10) obnoxious initiative and takes some shots. Then when he went out to 'negotiate' he did the same again, only with a quickdraw. In all, pretty fun stuff.
I really miss my CP2020 games, but the kids aren't old enough for them yet.
Quote from: Opaopajr;908853What does A Dirty World game offer that makes it worth getting if I wanna get my Blade Runner on?
Blade Runner, like a lot of Gibson's Sprawl series, is near-future
noir. Genre definitions are Nintendo Hard, but I kind of like the old "oneiric, strange, erotic, ambivalent, and cruel" list. ADW models this by tracking your character's values and mental state rather than their gun skill or constitution attribute - which is to say it's decidedly
not physics simulation. It's also not really narrative, so I don't think it trips the constantly-mutating-and-largely-mythical swiney storygame threshold, but if you're talking about doing
noir in BRP it may not be to your taste.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;909151Your realism has limits. They go on about the 9mm vs .45 thing and then assign them the same damage code (2d6+1). Cyberpunk doesn't differentiate between non-special rounds with high penetration vs high tissue damage. So your best armor penetrator for common usage winds up being a 10ga slug.
I don't recall seeing that debate in CP2020, but 2d6+1 is standard pistol shooting. Of course, you pretty much have to go with the substandard Solo of Fortune 2 (as I recall) to get 'modern' pistol ammo by default. Everything else is supposed to be caseless 'future calibers' as I recall, though there are some overlaps, as its only four years in the future, doncha know?
Of course: Shotguns seem to be the best combat weapon in most urban situations anyway. Hell, GI's in WWI used them in trench warfare so successfully that Europe tried to ban them as military weapons all together as inhumane.
QuoteLimp mode. The hit locations as written give you a 40% chance to hit the legs. I didn't like it and went with the same chance of hitting the legs as the arms (since most people are firing at the CoM and you're about as likely to hit the smaller arms while doing that as you are to hit the (relatively) immobile legs below your target zone.
I see a lot of people complain about the frequency of head hits, so the leg thing isn't top of my mind. I do know that, almost coincidentally, the values of most of the hit locations are well within the margin of error from FBI shooting statistics. Not specific on the legs, mind you. Of course, one thing not covered is that usually things like arm hits are ALSO torso hits, and so forth. Hollywood shooting.
QuoteCritical Failures. I think a 10% chance of fumbling every roll is a bit high. I had a situation where a group of solos pulled a three stooges set of rolls and shot each other, the principal, their super expensive guns exploded, and they bled out. Great comedy, but it ended that game.
Big complaint about the rules, and it goes double for high enders. With only a d10 radomizer there ain't a lot of wiggle room in the system. One solution is to use Luck points to offset critical fumbles, instead of just as an adder. Might make Luck a more useful stat.
QuoteWatch out for armor creep. Had a martial artist that was running around in 26 points of soft armor with an EV of 1 due to the armor layering rules. The character was getting fitted for "totally not cyberware" powergloves (sort of like power armor sleeves) when I had her ambushed and filled her full of holes for it. But shotguns are a good equalizer. They can shred up soft armor.
That... doesn't seem possible outside of Chromebook 4's fashion/armor rules. Well, not entirely, but: Layers of armor add up quick, so I'm guessing this involved skin weave?
Great advice! Thanks everybody! (ADW sounds like a dip into lush narrative. As long as it doesn't go all FATE economy, or "sharing the speaking stick," on me it may be ok.)
Now I'm left wondering, 'why the hell no one reprinted CP if it is such a solid property?' The system sounds way more robust and resilient than it looks, with easier to spot weak points when tinkering, and it already looked like a hoss. I sorta want all that time back futzing around with FASA's well-intentioned flubs, or Catalyst's abortions.
So... Bolting on magic: how would you do it? And same thing, going B-movie Explosathon! nuts: how so?
If I were doing magic in Cyberpunk, and I did with one playtest supplement for my own, Id make it very limited in some manner.
My go-to example is Silent Möbius, a manga which came out in 89 and was adapted into an OVA in 91.
If CP2020 really does use the same system overall as Mekton then you could plug in its build system for spells from a limited pool. Or even have the PCs all "build" their own gear, cyberware, or magic from the same point limits and roll from there.
Quote from: Bren;908914How so? Unlike data, minerals have mass and size. A corporate spy can't steal 10 tons of iridium and hide it in her shiny, aluminum briefcase.
Its just a different kind of action. Your right, its not a spy it's a political/mercenary action that secure this resource. A good literary example would be "The Dogs of War".
Quote from: Spike;909172I don't recall seeing that debate in CP2020, but 2d6+1 is standard pistol shooting. Of course, you pretty much have to go with the substandard Solo of Fortune 2 (as I recall) to get 'modern' pistol ammo by default. Everything else is supposed to be caseless 'future calibers' as I recall, though there are some overlaps, as its only four years in the future, doncha know?
They had that callout on old guns in the CP2020 book, generally they were a little weaker, but that was more a point of the ammo than anything else. I would usually let people get "modern" cased rounds for old guns if they wanted to (I think they actually had prices for it in Blackhands' anyway). For instance, the 5.56mm NATO from the M16 was listed at 4d6. They also had their share of errors, like when they gave the original AK47 the same 7.62mm damage as the G3 or M60 were using (7.62x51mm was 6d6+2, but the AK used 7.62x39mm, which should have put it right around 4d6 as well...)
QuoteOf course: Shotguns seem to be the best combat weapon in most urban situations anyway. Hell, GI's in WWI used them in trench warfare so successfully that Europe tried to ban them as military weapons all together as inhumane.
I see a lot of people complain about the frequency of head hits, so the leg thing isn't top of my mind. I do know that, almost coincidentally, the values of most of the hit locations are well within the margin of error from FBI shooting statistics. Not specific on the legs, mind you. Of course, one thing not covered is that usually things like arm hits are ALSO torso hits, and so forth. Hollywood shooting.
Word. I ran one game where I was strictly using the rules for penetration of bodies (I think they were in Listen Up) where your meat-shield would provide you their BOD in SP (plus any armor they had on, or skinweave, GSDA, etc) but that was it. Functionally, if you're shot in the arm from the right angle, the round would get stopped by your bod on the way to your torso. I forget the specific instance rules I was using though (something to do with obliques and round approach angles done on the fly IIRC).
QuoteBig complaint about the rules, and it goes double for high enders. With only a d10 radomizer there ain't a lot of wiggle room in the system. One solution is to use Luck points to offset critical fumbles, instead of just as an adder. Might make Luck a more useful stat.
My solution for the fumbles was to make a natural 1 an "imploding die", rolling again and subtracting, with another natural 1 resulting in a fumble.
QuoteThat... doesn't seem possible outside of Chromebook 4's fashion/armor rules. Well, not entirely, but: Layers of armor add up quick, so I'm guessing this involved skin weave?
It was with those rules, after they came out I pretty much embraced them fully. The game was (continuity-wise) well up against the end of Shockwave, so it fit well enough. I don't see any reason not to make those rules retroactive though.
One of my only major complaints about CP2020 was that it held on stubbornly to the randomized character generation, and I felt like that stymied players who wanted to make a specific character, so I decided to change it, and slapped a simplified point-based character creation on it. I felt like it worked well, and I have a .pdf of it if anyone wants. However, it was for private use and is CHOCK FULL of 'borrowed' internet art without proper credits, so I won't hang it anywhere. If someone wants to take a look, you can PM me and I'll email it.
Quote from: Omega;909181If I were doing magic in Cyberpunk, and I did with one playtest supplement for my own, Id make it very limited in some manner.
My go-to example is Silent Möbius, a manga which came out in 89 and was adapted into an OVA in 91.
If CP2020 really does use the same system overall as Mekton then you could plug in its build system for spells from a limited pool. Or even have the PCs all "build" their own gear, cyberware, or magic from the same point limits and roll from there.
There was also the Ianus games book Night's Edge, which covered all kinds of supernatural stuff. I liked it for what it was worth, although I don't think I ever actually used any of it in more than a one-shot.
Quote from: Opaopajr;909176Great advice! Thanks everybody! (ADW sounds like a dip into lush narrative. As long as it doesn't go all FATE economy, or "sharing the speaking stick," on me it may be ok.)
Now I'm left wondering, 'why the hell no one reprinted CP if it is such a solid property?' The system sounds way more robust and resilient than it looks, with easier to spot weak points when tinkering, and it already looked like a hoss. I sorta want all that time back futzing around with FASA's well-intentioned flubs, or Catalyst's abortions.
Because Mike Pondsmith and R.Talsorian Games have never let the property go. They still sell some books, and they've let one site go ahead and rework a sort of OSR-generic system for Interlock. They're reputed (although Mike has heavily disappointed me in the past on this) to be working on a new RPG tie-in with Cyberpunk 2077.
QuoteSo... Bolting on magic: how would you do it? And same thing, going B-movie Explosathon! nuts: how so?
Explosions are bad in CP. They're the great leveler. Explosive weapons ignore soft armor entirely (including things like some specialty explosive rounds with fairly low damage) and rigid armor only counts for 1/2. They're indiscriminate, large, with big numbers and vast potential for "woops" factors.
If you're just looking for mooks, they made it easy with a quadrant mini-sheet for them. Roll 2d6 for each stat (adding appropriate cyberware if they roll over the norm), throw down a couple guns and some armor, decide if you want cyberware, and put a skill level to them and you're done. If they live, you can roll for some distinguishing features and maybe give them a name. If they keep living, then give them a character sheet around the 3rd or 4th time they come out the far side. They've earned it by then.
Quote from: Opaopajr;909176(ADW sounds like a dip into lush narrative. As long as it doesn't go all FATE economy, or "sharing the speaking stick," on me it may be ok.)
It doesn't. It's bog standard One Roll Engine.
One thing to remember about CP2020: R. Talsorian made the common mistake of assuming that because something calls itself "cyberpunk" that it is (or more accurately, that it has anything in common with the seminal and iconic works of the genre). Early CP2020 release drew heavily from the genre pillars, but the later releases pretty much pulled from anime. Bubblegum Crisis and Appleseed aren't cyberpunk in any meaningful sense. I think Ghost in the Shell S.A.C. is on the fence.
Quote from: daniel_ream;909193I think Ghost in the Shell S.A.C. is on the fence.
I agree. They kind of deal with transhumanism and relations to humanity, but honestly... I always felt like it was more Shirow Gun porn. Black Lagoon felt more like cyberpunk to me.
Uh oh! Genre Purists! Someone get me my flamethrower!!!!
Man, I should really find a SR table to give it a spin some day.
It was one of the first RPGs to get a Portuguese translation and release here in Brazil, but I never got to play it for some reason.
Remember that post where a GM tried to run Star Trek and couldn't because all the players wanted to play some kind of SF Tom Clancy Federation instead?
Genre conventions matter.
Naw, GM's gotta just roll with it. You can look up on this forum and others my old Tiwesdaeg (pseudo Saxon Britain) games, and there might even be some traces of the Osere (modern espionage) ones. They were thoughtful, serious stuff.
Nowadays half my players just have their characters jump off eighty foot towers pursuing foes. It's not ideal, but it's a game, fuck it, I roll with it. If they want Tom Clancy, give 'em Tom Clancy.
Quote from: The Butcher;909219Man, I should really find a SR table to give it a spin some day.
It was one of the first RPGs to get a Portuguese translation and release here in Brazil, but I never got to play it for some reason.
Id love to point you at the amazing SR port to a MUD whole cloth. But its run so horribly by the admin and their buddies that theres no one left playing it but them. The source code may still be on the site. But I never could get it to run.
Genre is defined after, not imposed before. Everyone tries it the wrong way round, and we wind up with a bunch of boring, cliched, derivative crap.
Quote from: Spike;909241G[...] we wind up with a bunch of boring, cliched, derivative crap.
All RPGs are boring, cliched, derivative crap. We're not making great art here, we're eating Cheetos and attacking the darkness.
What genre definitions do in RPGs is provide a shorthand for players and GMs to describe what kind of game they're expecting so everyone's on the same page. If I say I'm running Call of Cthulhu, I don't have to "roll with" somebody who shows up with a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet as a character.
QuoteIf I say I'm running Call of Cthulhu, I don't have to "roll with" somebody who shows up with a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet as a character.
You don't have to, but it'll be more fun if you do.
But be honest: How often does that happen? Most players try to co-operate, more or less, as best they can. Most people do
not want to piss in your cornflakes.
You mean Cornflakes aren't meant as a piss sop?
Damnit! Now I gotta go clean out the toilet! Someone shudda said somethin' earlier!
I like that the system so far sounds pan-ambi-fluid-sexual flexible, while not starting that way. From grit-to-glam is a bit more easy for my DIY tinkering than glam-to-grit.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;909259You don't have to, but it'll be more fun if you do.
No, it really won't. Probably because I play RPGs for different reasons than you. And that's okay.
QuoteBut be honest: How often does that happen? Most players try to co-operate, more or less, as best they can. Most people do not want to piss in your cornflakes.
All the time? There's a reason so many people here and elsewhere advocate playing only with friends you know well. And even then, Tigger Syndrome is a serious problem at many tables.
A little later to the game here, but wanted to chime in as I ran Cybperpunk 2020 for years.
Speed of combat
At first, not fast, not slow. A decent group with experience in running combats and keeping things moving will start combats moving slower than you would like. As you get a few sessions under the belt, it will rise to medium, and creep closer to "fast" as players know their options, and you (the Referee) stop worrying about making your opponents super varied. By the eighth and ninth session of my home game, the group was quite capable of running through a combat with no book references, and I was only occasionally glancing at my Ref Screen for a few details. It flowed nicely.
Hacking
I ended up making the netrunner an NPC, because the group was more interested in playing a group of Solos. I did run a mini-netrunner side campaign, it was not awesome. Not terribad either though. I would suggest, if my memory serves me, that the Netrunning rules in the Cybergen game were a lot cleaner. See my notes below about Cybergen.
Gear
You had gear for those who wanted it. My group had the core books, all three Chrome Books, the "mech" book (waste of fucking ink), and one or two other supplements. We had all the gear we ever wanted. Players would flip through them during down time or other character's scenes to look for ideas on what to get. A word of warning, basically lifted right from Mike Pondsmith - do not let your players horde gear and turn into gear titans. Don't just throw Euros at them and let them shop like fiends. Make them work for their crap, because a well funded solo is a nightmare to hurt and resist. It can get out of control. This is not hard to limit though - just don't give more euros than people deliver, make them pay for their lifestyle (and punish the nimrods who claim they just live in cardboard boxes to avoid rent, eating nothing but kibble). Make gear acquisition matter!
I would also perhaps just ignore the "sell out" option. Anyone who thinks they want to play a sell out to a corp is either going to be a nuisance for the rest of the group (how do you trust them) or whine when their corporate masters remind them that they are, in fact, property of Arasaka.
Cybergen
This was a seriously fun offshoot of Cybergen, but also began (as I see it) the beginning of things going seriously wrong in the narrative. For one, it developed a narrative. Cyberpunk might have been a cyberpunk-genre game with a specific world, but that world was very toolkit in approach. It was not defined by the NPCs. In Cybergen, you had the big names of the CP 2020 era (previously just iconic characters) turn into the actual movers and shakers. Don't get me started on some of the insanity that the nanite tech developed would imply for that world. But if you kept on looking at this game, and Cyberpunk correctly (games meant to emulate a genre and still be fun), it worked. What followed, from what little I read of the subsequent R Talisorian stuff, has about the same quality as the ShadowRun overplot (inspect your toilet after your next BM for a visual).
What I liked about Cybergen was that it made a more streamlined version of the Interlock combat engine. Damage was rated in Damage Codes (DC), and while you did have to reference a chart to use the DCs, it took some of the nitty gritty crap out of the combat engine and sped it up. I used the Cybergen rules for some CP2020 games and liked the results, a lot. BTW, there were two Cybergens - a supplement for CP2020, and later it's own game. The latter is the one to look for.
Final Notes
My friend and I found that the Cyberpunk game worked better when you really upped the aptitude on the cyberpunk elements you liked. The base setting was something of a personal, "realistic" approach by Pondsmith (he even criticized, kindly, the aesthetics and practicality of Bladerunner and some other cyberpunk properties). It was something of a love letter to Gibson and Snowcrash, IIRC. We created a more dis-topic setting that took the scrapyards from Battle Angel Alita and the mega spires from Bladerunner, made it constantly rain, and had a frickin' ball with the entire thing. Figure out your dials on the cyberpunk stereo, and tweak the presentation to fit. The great thing is the underlying rules will mostly work. I'd also recommend creating more capacity to "multi-class", and even decouple the Role Abilities entirely from Roles - it creates a stronger long term playstyle.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;909151Things to watch out for in CP2020:
Your realism has limits. They go on about the 9mm vs .45 thing and then assign them the same damage code (2d6+1). Cyberpunk doesn't differentiate between non-special rounds with high penetration vs high tissue damage. So your best armor penetrator for common usage winds up being a 10ga slug.
Mild quibble - 9mm do 2d6+1, but .45's and higher (including old-world caliber bullets and the 2020 caseless variety) do 4d6 at minimum. There is a proliferation of going to shotgun rounds in the revised edition too because they made shotgun slugs AP. That said, the best way to take out guy with a shotgun is to out range them etc.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;909151Limp mode. The hit locations as written give you a 40% chance to hit the legs. I didn't like it and went with the same chance of hitting the legs as the arms (since most people are firing at the CoM and you're about as likely to hit the smaller arms while doing that as you are to hit the (relatively) immobile legs below your target zone. So I just changed the hit location chart to 1 - Head 2-6 Torso, 7- RArm, 8-LArm, 9-RLeg, 10-LLeg. Also, keep in mind that the maximum damage a character can take to a limb is 12 before the limb suffers a traumatic amputation. Not so for the torso.
100% agree here. I made some changes like this too as I recall. Is it 12 point? I thought it was 8. Oh well. it's been a while.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;909151Critical Failures. I think a 10% chance of fumbling every roll is a bit high. I had a situation where a group of solos pulled a three stooges set of rolls and shot each other, the principal, their super expensive guns exploded, and they bled out. Great comedy, but it ended that game.
Another really good point. 10% Feast/Famine bit can be rough.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;909151Watch out for armor creep. Had a martial artist that was running around in 26 points of soft armor with an EV of 1 due to the armor layering rules. The character was getting fitted for "totally not cyberware" powergloves (sort of like power armor sleeves) when I had her ambushed and filled her full of holes for it. But shotguns are a good equalizer. They can shred up soft armor.
Yeah, this needs to be monitored. There's a sweet spot that you as a GM have to come to grips with after some play. The layering rules can get a bit thick. I believe at 25+ you're really at the top end of what the rule will allow. And 25 is a LOT.
Adding magic to the game. Well it would depend on what you want Magic to do. The Mekton game had Psionics that could easily be adapted "as magic".
As mentioned upthread Cybergenration did a bunch of crazy shit in there too. You could create some simple system for effects based formulas and simple assign Magic as a Class Ability (like any other role) and just assign the difficulty as normal.
In keeping with the SR notion of magic, I'd tie the Magic skill to Empathy that way you'd have a natural separation of Cyber and Magic.
Quote from: daniel_ream;909290No, it really won't. Probably because I play RPGs for different reasons than you. And that's okay.
All the time? There's a reason so many people here and elsewhere advocate playing only with friends you know well. And even then, Tigger Syndrome is a serious problem at many tables.
I've found that younger players tend to be pretty easy to work with as a GM. We've grown up with video games as our "competitive" outlet, with tabletop games explicitly there to participate in a multi-person fiction setting. In addition, many of us turn to tabletop RPGs to get story experiences we may feel lacking in computer games, so Timmy isn't just messing with the GM, he's messing with all of the other player's reason for sitting down for hours at a time.
Quote from: daniel_ream;909290No, it really won't. Probably because I play RPGs for different reasons than you. And that's okay.
[...]
All the time? There's a reason so many people here and elsewhere advocate playing only with friends you know well. And even then, Tigger Syndrome is a serious problem at many tables.
I had to look up Tigger Syndrome (cliff notes: i like everything! ... except whatever you offer next).
I totally get where you're coming from. Motley crews of special snowflakes tumbling down the pass on their way to respectable street drove me up a wall before. Then I learned it's just easier clearly stating what I want and expect, and "releasing" players from my table if they just couldn't hack it. Sometimes I want a mad tumble of parrots through the casbah — but a lot of times I don't. And I reserve the right to have my fun, too.
Quote from: Opaopajr;909338Then I learned it's just easier clearly stating what I want and expect, and "releasing" players from my table if they just couldn't hack it.
I am old and jaded, but asking players what they want to play
never works, in my experience. Just running what you like, being clear about what that means, and politely turning away people who don't or won't get it is the only way to avoid GM burnout.
Quote from: daniel_ream;909350I am old and jaded, but asking players what they want to play never works, in my experience. Just running what you like, being clear about what that means, and politely turning away people who don't or won't get it is the only way to avoid GM burnout.
Which is kind of where I am with genre conventions. If I tell 5 players this is a CyberPunk game, I've got 10+ different possibilities of the definition of Cyberpunk rolling around in their heads. Instead I tell them what the setting is like, because in the end, I don't really care about genre, I care about authenticity. My players don't tell stories through their characters, they experience a fictional world through their characters. Does this world ring true to itself, as opposed to Gibson, Sterling or whoever? Because if it does, then it's a win, regardless of whether or not looking back you could see the campaign as coming straight out of a Mirrorshades collection.
Now that being said, I do prime the pump by using terms like Cyberpunk, Sword and Sorcery, etc., but I always follow them up with what I mean by the term, because it may not be what they mean.
“As a literary form, what happened was what happens to every successful new thing in any branch of pop culture. Cyberpunk fiction went from being something unexpected, fresh, and original, to being a trendy fashion statement; to being a repeatable commercial formula; to being a hoary trope, complete with a set of stylistic markers and time-honored forms to which obeisance must be paid if one is to write True Cyberpunk….”
– Bruce Bethke (writer of the story
Cyberpunk)
Like the sig says:
"Don't let yourself get too worried about all this talk about roleplaying [...] the ultimate object of all this is for everyone to have fun, not to recreate some form of high dramatic art." - Dungeoneer
I haven't experienced much problem with players not being on the same page as my campaign, but that's probably a combo of luck, my being specific about my expectations for the campaign and my willingness to be flexible to add to the fun.
Quote from: Opaopajr;909338And I reserve the right to have my fun, too.
Hell yeah!!
Even among friends, I've found that people's genre expectations can be a big hang up when it comes time to game - though a lot of the time, the actual game itself can be at fault if it's a grab bag and mismash of various genres. Take Exalted - in my group we had people like me who wanted dark, gritty fantasy with supernatural powers. Then we had the player who wanted wuxai/anime stuff, complete with SD freak out moments. Another player who wanted Game of Thrones. Another who wanted Avatar: The Last Airbender. It was a hot fucking mess.
At least both CP 2020 and SR both present their genre with a little more focus, even if Cyberpunk itself is more of a lens than a genre.
Scroungin the used stacks for copies on the cheap. Shh, don't tell anyone lest the collectors start swooping in. How far can I get away with just the core book?
CP2020 you can get quite far with ust the core book. It is all we used in college, back when it first came out. The sourcebooks vary widely in usefulness and quality.
Shadowrun I have no idea these days. I haven't played since first edition.
Quote from: DavetheLost;909675CP2020 you can get quite far with ust the core book. It is all we used in college, back when it first came out. The sourcebooks vary widely in usefulness and quality.
I've come to the same conclusion. I never ran any true long term campaigns, but the most successful ones typically used only the corebook and maybe some stuff from Night City. CP2020 and Rifts were unique in my purge from a couple of years ago as being games I kept but disposed of many of their supplements.
Quote from: Opaopajr;909671Scroungin the used stacks for copies on the cheap. Shh, don't tell anyone lest the collectors start swooping in. How far can I get away with just the core book?
The local group ran a long CP2020 campaign before I arrived. All with just the core book.
Dont know about later editions but SR is fully playable with just the core book.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908893It's mostly because of Timmies and role protections. There's always going to be that guy (who probably posts to the gaming den) who's going to break the system and turn the entire campaign into a gigantic wank fest over his character. Sociopathy and social coldness isn't a negative to someone who wants to play a murderhobo. Personally, I kind of like the tech vs. magic thing, as you have the spirit world rebelling against man's tools and vice versa. One of the reasons why I like Arcana so much, despite the gameplay being atrocious. One of my fixes tends to be to divide up the "face" of the party role between everyone. Let them have distinct roles in combat and preparing for missions, but roleplaying wise I tend to play it off that every segment of society has personality types that favors one guy or another. Badass biker bar is going to react better to roided up cyborg, for example. That way people are distinct in the crunch, but have equal chances to work with the fluff. Shadowrun Returns did it very well with balancing intelligence, charisma and strength as equally viable conversation approaches.
I think Dragonfall was the first solid game in that series that pulled that off but I was even more impressed with Hong Kong which used almost every skill in dialog at least a few times. And that is exactly how skills should be used in CRPGs (and tabletop). I've completed all games playing a hybrid Shaman/Decker with maxed-out Charisma and Intelligence and it is highly satisfying that even if your character can't trash mobs, they can certainly mop up convos that net you way better rewards long-term. Only sticking point was the whole trait limit thing with the Troll and Orc genotypes (but that's that archaic "black peolple savage orcs" shit from the tabletop cracking through its ugly head)
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908902Right, I dun goofed, Arcanum. I've checked out the mods, but honestly its not UI or Keybinds, its the fact that the fundamental gameplay sucks and a wonderful game world was ruined by tons of trashmobs and crappy combat. That and the dialogue trees are the most unforgiving I have ever seen. Usually games give you a heads up on "this is the dialogue your buffed speech skill unlocked", but Arcanum gave no warning as to what was the better option and rarely gave you side paths to achieving the same result. Solving the orc labor dispute is damn near impossible without having done it before or using an internet guide.
As for rules, I tend to run long campaigns, so I have more time to build them around the characters. I also go down the classic delta green route and give people large packages of knowledge at the start, as often knowledge tends to be gimped character build wise. Plus, I almost exclusively use Savage Worlds, where its a lot harder to build broken characters. My main issue is that I've lived in a lot of areas where RPG's aren't as well established, and my personal tastes go into Swine territory (yes, I'm a storygamer). As such, I have to find ways to integrate the pathfinder or DnD crowd, who tend to want to powergame.
I played a Half-Ogre who had maxed-out Charisma and Speech (you can probably tell what kind of characters I like playing...) I got the orcs unionized with the Half-Orc guy safe and sound and in power and I also got Caladon (?) into the UK with roughly equals powers as Tarant (?). Most everything else about that game was shit but the speech checks were awesome.
The ending was really shit. Its way too overhyped for what it is.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;908918While I do enjoy roleplaying, the problem with CRPGs vs face to face is that they tend to be binary. Let's say there are three different options for that labor strike, all of which are supportive or offer alternative solutions. In a CRPG, most likely only one of them is going to be the one that actually ends it the way I want it to end. All of them also seem equally appealing from a roleplaying point of view, as I am a labor supporter in favor of orc rights. As such, I don't know which one of these flavors is going to accomplish what I want. This is why that signaling is so important. It tells the players "amongst the options you like and fit your character, this is the one that uses your character to the fullest and accomplishes your end goal." If I were face to face with a gm, I could creatively persuade him. With a computer, you're basically playing a character design puzzle. This is why branching solutions are so important, as they allow you to "fail" the character design puzzle and still roleplay your ideal end state. Assembling evidence, hidden away in a defended lair, which convinces the orc labor leader to stand down, allows a fighter character to still support orc labor rights and push the world where you want it to go, but without the arbitrary charisma or speech skill cap.
For me, I tend to stick to savage worlds because RPG systems can be very complex and tough to master. Until you master them, especially as a GM, roleplaying is extremely difficult and gameplay flow can be broken up. Plus, RPGs are quite setting dependent, so in order to play a character who grew up in the world you tend to need to do a substantial amount of reading to be able to understand what your character has experienced.
Geological surveys of mineral fields are incredibly expensive and could potentially be worth billions of dollars. Back during the early Kabila years in the DRC (early 2000's) he was buying the support of major traders and mercenaries with geological data alone. Finding out where your competitors found a new vein of Cobalt could be worth millions to the right people, and well worth sending in a team to break and enter. Or, better yet, finding out who's taking bribes in the region those fields are, so you can then flip them, seize the land, and start mining ASAP.
As for Bio-Tech, I tend to avoid playing the companies as straight up evil. Say you have a company cutting corners with HIV treatment tests in Niger that go wrong. The company may have been trying to make a few extra bucks, but the people who run it also probably actually wanted to help the fight against HIV. There are few people who consciously act evilly, for the most part the value system they exist in provides a framework for how they think, the results of which can lead to evil. Playing with those value systems is, in my view, what makes Cyberpunk such a fun genre when done well. When done poorly (Shadowrun), it just becomes a wankfest about how much capitalism sucks.
I'll definitely do a write up of my Africa-Punk setting. Living in Rwanda for half a year gave me a ton of ideas for modern RPGs
I don't really find it that hard to imagine what its like for a character to live in a given world. One of the most -- for me, at least -- evocative pieces of RPG artwork was in one of the WHRPG gamebooks. It depitcted a vicious, brutal firefight between gang members in a place where it looked violence was one of few ways of life. I imagine the screaming, gunfire, swearing, trashcan fires, motorcycle speeding, airplane low overhead, boots on rivetmetal galleys, all these sounds and I'm there.
One of the worst about Shadowrun (and most fiction in general that mentions Africa of Africanized regions) is the only thing of note is that Nigeria is a "ghoul kingdom". We have all this info on Asia or Europe or North America but none on the place most likely to be the most relevant in the 2070s.
Quote from: Opaopajr;909671Scroungin the used stacks for copies on the cheap. Shh, don't tell anyone lest the collectors start swooping in. How far can I get away with just the core book?
Very far. And actually, leaving the Chrome Books out of it will do a lot for the scope of your game. One sourcebook referenced right in the core book is Solo of Fortune, where a cyberware boost upgrade is contained (but must be on the net somewhere, or you could just get a summary of the cyberware in the book).
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;909837Only sticking point was the whole trait limit thing with the Troll and Orc genotypes (but that's that archaic "black peolple savage orcs" shit from the tabletop cracking through its ugly head)
Yeah, not even close. Metatype and ethnicity are not the same thing.
And the whole 'Orcs are the blacks' thing is complete bullshit anyway.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;909890And the whole 'Orcs are the blacks' thing is complete bullshit anyway.
Not in Shadowrun it isn't. Ingentization has explicitly been about straight up Fantasy Racism since day one.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;909890Yeah, not even close. Metatype and ethnicity are not the same thing.
And the whole 'Orcs are the blacks' thing is complete bullshit anyway.
In most RPG settings, you'd be correct. However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US. Early Shadowrun, with its focus on the gangs of Seattle, is very much a product of the 1980's inner city gang culture and how the rest of America reacted to it.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;909837I think Dragonfall was the first solid game in that series that pulled that off but I was even more impressed with Hong Kong which used almost every skill in dialog at least a few times. And that is exactly how skills should be used in CRPGs (and tabletop). I've completed all games playing a hybrid Shaman/Decker with maxed-out Charisma and Intelligence and it is highly satisfying that even if your character can't trash mobs, they can certainly mop up convos that net you way better rewards long-term. Only sticking point was the whole trait limit thing with the Troll and Orc genotypes (but that's that archaic "black peolple savage orcs" shit from the tabletop cracking through its ugly head)
SR: Hong Kong is, in my view, a gold standard for how developers of both PnP and Computer RPGs should design non violent problem solving in the future. The designated "diplomat" role on the tabletop is archaic and should be scrapped. All it does is create a character that is not fun to play in combat, and then monopolizes the game outside of it. Plus, I love how the best ending wasn't locked behind some arbitrary CHA check, as if some smooth talker could convince a god to step down on personality alone. It rewarded playing the entire game and allowed every character to outsmart the enemy.
QuoteI played a Half-Ogre who had maxed-out Charisma and Speech (you can probably tell what kind of characters I like playing...) I got the orcs unionized with the Half-Orc guy safe and sound and in power and I also got Caladon (?) into the UK with roughly equals powers as Tarant (?). Most everything else about that game was shit but the speech checks were awesome.
The ending was really shit. Its way too overhyped for what it is.
I personally liked the ending, with how it shook up how you viewed the world so much. Arcanum is the epitome for me of the "Obsidian" family of games (I know it wasn't done by Obsidian, but I use it as a nice catch all). The gameplay itself is crap, but the world and conversations are enough to make the slog through the bad gameplay worth it. Cutting the combat by 2/3's would have made it a lot more fun. In general, this is something a lot of RPG designers really should take note of. If you can't design good combat, then reduce it whenever possible. Padding games with trash mobs doesn't make them more fun. This definitely applies to PnP RPG design, where trash mobs mean a 30 minute to an hour investment, not 45 seconds-2 minutes of clicking and slaughter.
QuoteI don't really find it that hard to imagine what its like for a character to live in a given world. One of the most -- for me, at least -- evocative pieces of RPG artwork was in one of the WHRPG gamebooks. It depitcted a vicious, brutal firefight between gang members in a place where it looked violence was one of few ways of life. I imagine the screaming, gunfire, swearing, trashcan fires, motorcycle speeding, airplane low overhead, boots on rivetmetal galleys, all these sounds and I'm there.
One of the worst about Shadowrun (and most fiction in general that mentions Africa of Africanized regions) is the only thing of note is that Nigeria is a "ghoul kingdom". We have all this info on Asia or Europe or North America but none on the place most likely to be the most relevant in the 2070s.
What I like about games set in "our" world is that you can really play with how the person and character are going to react. It's a lot easier for someone to play a hyperviolent character in the world you described. If the setting is one of pure brutal violence, both player and character are going to have similar motivations and morality. Forcing someone from middle class America into a dark, corrupt and hyper violent setting that they would personally be aware of results in some really interesting roleplaying (yes, I am a swine, as my signature states.)
Let's say you are faced with a decision: do I bribe a policeman or kill him. More than likely, the policeman is just as poor as you, isn't receiving a salary, has a family to feed, ect. In a hyper violent fictional setting, the choice to kill him is a lot easier. You don't have a conflict between in and out of character knowledge, as the world is presented as your character would see it (grimdark evil Judge Dredd clones cracking down on everyone.) Whereas in a real world setting, you have a stronger conflict between your character's viewpoint and your viewpoint, as the story is presenting the world as your character sees it, while you bring your own knowledge to the table.
This is something I feel that a lot of Shadowrun games fail to really mess around with. The folks in Knight Errant gear are people trying to make a living, just like you. It's a fundamentally relatable situation, "I need food and I'm good with a gun, where do I go?", yet too many games treats them as mooks. Some small touches of humanizing would do wonders to reign in the appeal of pink mohawk style games where you just slaughter people. It's a theme I try to drive home in my Africa-punk setting (which I will be posting soon-ish.)
Quote from: IskandarKebab;909905However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US. Early Shadowrun, with its focus on the gangs of Seattle, is very much a product of the 1980's inner city gang culture and how the rest of America reacted to it.
Oh for fuck's sake.
Shadowrun is a dystopia of discrimination on just about every front possible, even the Orks kicked the Dwarves out of the Seattle Underground.
How the hell do you get "deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US" unless by "mirror" you mean "they face discrimination too" in which case you may as well say it was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges of 1800's Irish immigrants, Tamil in India, or the Roma. Poverty, crime, discrimination, what makes it black and hispanic, because it's in a city as opposed to Appalachia?
Quote from: CRKrueger;910036How the hell do you get "deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US"
...because the designers said that it was?
I mean, if Word of God isn't enough for you that's cool and all, but I kind of take them at their word on this one.
There's a difference between a Star Trek like "He's black on the right side, I'm black on the left" kind of obvious "See how stupid racism is" metaphor, and a deliberate mirroring of a specific minority's experience as political commentary. Human beings literally turned into Orcs and Trolls overnight. When Fred was a human yesterday, calling him no longer human today seems as asinine as the lampshaded aliens in Star Trek.
Also, if it was meant to be a deliberately constructed mirroring of the Black and Hispanic experience, it's an idiotic one. There's no history of Slavery or Immigration issues with Orks and Trolls. Also, if it is meant to be a deliberate analogue, it's one Stormfront would use because Orks and Trolls do have very large physical differences, unlike any other form of human racism.
You may as well say that Shadowrun was making a seer-like prediction of the future of religious terrorism in that Catholicism welcomed metahumans with open arms, while Islam declares them abominations and persecutes them.
Shadowrun hits the dystopian themes of Cyberpunk HARD, but that doesn't mean it's scalpel-like with it's specific targets. It's not even remotely focused that clearly.
"Calling out modern racism" isn't "deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US".
Quote from: CRKrueger;910060Also, if it was meant to be a deliberately constructed mirroring of the Black and Hispanic experience, it's an idiotic one. There's no history of Slavery or Immigration issues with Orks and Trolls. Also, if it is meant to be a deliberate analogue, it's one Stormfront would use because Orks and Trolls do have very large physical differences, unlike any other form of human racism.
"Calling out modern racism" isn't "deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US".
There are games which use orks and trolls to call out modern racism, but much like the Orcs in Arcanum, who represent the British lower class in the industrial age, Orks and Trolls are deliberately modeled on specific American groups.
Orks are stereotyped by the rest of "acceptable" society as brutes with too many children who are short lived, inherently lazy, violent and drawn to lives of crime, are strongly associated with living in inner city slums and being parts of street gangs. There are Ork "Posers" who pretend to be Orks, dress as them, use their culture, who are viewed with mild irritation to outright hostility. (Yes, elves have the same thing, but Ork posers are deliberately based on "wigger" culture.) At a certain point there might as well have had an in-universe act called "Goblins With Attitude" and their hit song called "Straight out of Redmond".
Trolls are torn between two stereotypes, both being lumped in with the Orks by some, and as dim witted, but hard-working manual laborers by others. They fit into the twin American stereotypes of Latino immigrants, both the inner city gang banger and the hard working manual laborer "model immigrant."
Yes, there are other cultural subgroups to whom some of those stereotypes may apply. But inner city gang culture was very much an American phenomenon starting in the early 80's. You take that into conjunction with how fucking America centered FASA was, the word of god mentioned above, and it's damn clear who Orks and Trolls are supposed to represent.
I'm sure a lot of political messages are very "clear" to you. ;)
"Word of God" needs a citation BTW, and as I said, calling out american racism, or even 80's fear of gangs, doesn't translate to "deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US".
The Orc Posers you're talking about are Orxploitation due to the Orc Rapper Crimetime, deep into 3rd Edition and the reign of Rob "Transhumanist Wannabe" Boyle, one year before 4th Edition.
Seeing as how the Ork and Troll situation was created fifteen years earlier in 1989, I think you're putting your own political bullshit onto the game just a tad...like maybe 100% worth.
A simple example of how full of shit you are - all those stereotypes leveled against orcs and trolls that are supposed to mirror blacks and hispanics are the same exact stereotypes the Know-Nothings used against European Catholic Immigrants, and the entire WASP establishment used against the Irish specifically.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910084A simple example of how full of shit you are - all those stereotypes leveled against orcs and trolls that are supposed to mirror blacks and hispanics are the same exact stereotypes the Know-Nothings used against European Catholic Immigrants, and the entire WASP establishment used against the Irish specifically.
In a sense, those are our recyclable stereotypes, used every time we start a new age of immigration. Aliens from Zeta Reticuli who try to immigrate will probably be denigrated as drunk and lazy.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910084I'm sure a lot of political messages are very "clear" to you. ;)
And I'm sure a lot of those messages go
right over your head.
Quote"Word of God" needs a citation BTW, and as I said, calling out american racism, or even 80's fear of gangs, doesn't translate to "deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US".
Except for the whole part where the fear of gangs in the 1980's was a fear of black and latino gangs. And the fact that AMERICAN RACISM IS SPECIFICALLY AIMED AT BLACK AND LATINO PEOPLE. There is of course, room to argue the applicability of Asian stereotypes (which bleed a bit into the negative/quasi positive stereotypes people in the Shadowrun universe have towards Dwarfs), but Donald Trump isn't talking about Asians, he's talking about Blacks and Latinos. If Shadowrun were a reflection of American society in the 1950's, then yeah, the inference would be a lot harder to make because you'd have all sorts of involvement with hell's angels and your normal greaser shit. But Shadowrun is a product of 1980's America, based on 1980's America, and 1980's America was afraid of black and latino gangs.
QuoteThe Orc Posers you're talking about are Orxploitation due to the Orc Rapper Crimetime, deep into 3rd Edition and the reign of Rob "Transhumanist Wannabe" Boyle, one year before 4th Edition.
Seeing as how the Ork and Troll situation was created fifteen years earlier in 1989, I think you're putting your own political bullshit onto the game just a tad...like maybe 100% worth.
That's because Black Poser culture really emerged in the early 2000's. In fact, this actually supports my argument, because the developers decided to deliberately incorporate developments in how the majority culture interacted with black culture in the US into how the majority culture interacted with Ork culture in Shadowrun. Orxsploitation is a deliberate send off on Blaxsploitation. If Ork culture was more of a blend of other groups and what they faced, you might have something to go on. For example, had the developers decided to incorporate the experiences of the Hmong, or Irish southies.
And I find your charge of "political bullshit" interesting, as if anything we do is free of that "political bullshit." No matter how hard we try, the settings and fiction we create are going to be a reflection of the environment in which we grew up in. You can see this in Tolkien's portrayal of industry vs nature, Gibson's obsession with the rise of the big holding company and blindness to the rise of small, incredibly profitable, single niche organizations. Shadowrun's obsession with Japanese urban life of the 1980's is a classic example of this. GRRM writes post Cold-War fantasy, there's no longer this existential battle between good and evil that dominates our "real" world, so what does that mean for how we view our fictional worlds? And let's not even get into Conan the Barbarian or HP Fucking Lovecraft. Fantasy as we know it is built on a ton of "political bullshit" and part of what makes it so fascinating a genre is seeing how authors of their time reflected their views of the real world in the fake worlds they created and we still interact with today.
QuoteA simple example of how full of shit you are - all those stereotypes leveled against orcs and trolls that are supposed to mirror blacks and hispanics are the same exact stereotypes the Know-Nothings used against European Catholic Immigrants, and the entire WASP establishment used against the Irish specifically.
Yes, because Shadowrun was clearly parodying racism against the Irish. As That Chris Guy mentioned, these are recycled stereotypes. However, at the time the stereotypes were used (1989), the targets were Blacks and Latinos. It's a bit like saying that a race negatively stereotyped as good with money, greedy, and overly clannish in an urban European environment, from a setting created in the 1950's, isn't meant to be a direct reflection of Jewish people. Yes, that also applies to Armenians during the Ottoman Empire, or the fucking Uighurs during the early days of the Mongolian empire. But add in just a smidgen of paying attention to the setting and the times it was created in, and it becomes clear to a 5th grader that it is meant to reflect how people viewed Jews.
I am not saying "Shadowrun is racist because of Orks and Trolls." This is not an argument about Dnd orcs, or Tolkien and his swarthy evil men. In the Shadowrun universe, these stereotypes are consistently shown as bad, wrongfully placed and often push Orks to fulfill what they feel society has forced them to be. However, this does not mean that Orks and Trolls aren't meant to be allegories, a natural product of the times Shadowrun originates from.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;910110However, this does not mean that Orks and Trolls aren't meant to be allegories, a natural product of the times Shadowrun originates from.
Yeah, allegories of
Racism, not allegories of Urban US Blacks circa 1980-1990. Which ones are supposed to be Latinos again? Neither Orks nor Trolls are really blamed for taking anyone's jobs. If Trolls are Latinos and Orcs are Blacks, why do Orcs have the higher birth rate? If Ghouls are meant to be the fear of AIDS, why is it Orks who call humans "Breeders"? Are Dwarves the Jews, or Elves? Elves the European Elite Economic Class or is that the Dragons? Who are the Native Americans? Oh, the real Native Americans, but they're not really a repressed minority anymore because they took their land back and are a world power. So the UCAS is now the Native Americans, or are they the South and the Amerindians the North?
For all your love of thinking yourself a sophisticated social academic, you have all the nuance of a 2-year old with a paint-by-numbers coloring book.
Pick a Cyberpunk dystopian theme, and Shadowrun hits it...hard. Pick a social ill, and Shadowrun hits it...hard. But it's addressing the conditions of humanity and society not focused social criticism. Renraku is not Mitsubishi, Damien Knight is not {insert corporate raider of choice} and Orks ain't Niggaz. Shadowrun describes the awakening of a brand new world (or the reemergence of a very old one) but despite the Magic, the Technology, the advancements of what metahumanity can do, humans are still humans, with the same old hates and the same old flaws, making the same old mistakes, as well as a whole slate of new ones.
It's a mirror, not of Compton, but of humanity.
BTW: Not sure why you said you want to avoid bringing in Tolkien, Howard, and Lovecraft, it's obvious you want to talk about it, really,
REALLY want to talk about it. :rolleyes:
Maybe we'll finally get someone now who can explain Stormbringer's "Dark Side of the Hobby" to us.
On the other hand, I am kind of interested in how Nigeria is going to become center-stage in 2070.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910155Maybe we'll finally get someone now who can explain Stormbringer's "Dark Side of the Hobby" to us.
Is that a thing?
Quote from: CRKrueger;910161On the other hand, I am kind of interested in how Nigeria is going to become center-stage in 2070.
I like running Rifts / Cyberpunk / Shadowrun in Africa. The big conceit I've used is the fight for resources, or the rise of Africa after in a cyber dystopia after a limited nuke war left the usual suspects (Russia, China, USA) in shambles.
Quote from: Spinachcat;910162Is that a thing?
It was to him, but he never had the balls to actually put words to it (it was in the orkist-colonialism thread, so you can probably guess).
The Usual Suspects are always talking about The Dark Side of the Hobby, ie. Gamers are some special flavor of -ist.
Quote from: Spinachcat;910165I like running Rifts / Cyberpunk / Shadowrun in Africa. The big conceit I've used is the fight for resources, or the rise of Africa after in a cyber dystopia after a limited nuke war left the usual suspects (Russia, China, USA) in shambles.
Africa's definitely a place that could rise, meteorically, it has what it needs. Charting from A to Z is the tricky part.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910155Yeah, allegories of Racism, not allegories of Urban US Blacks circa 1980-1990. Which ones are supposed to be Latinos again? Neither Orks nor Trolls are really blamed for taking anyone's jobs.
Except yes, they were, fluff from various Guides to Seattle comes to mind - Goblinization's races are generally an amalgamation of Black & Latino, not just one and the other - it is after all, a fantasy world. At this point it feels like you are complaining that the depiction of racial probelms in society in Shadowrun isn't just a 1 to 1 carbon copy of Real Life's issues, so...complaining that a metaphor is more than an inch deep? I suppose more obvious would be Humanis, depicted as Secret South - American Nazi Conspiracy with members wearing long white robes with pointy white hoods (there's at least one official illustration in 5/4e's Guide to Seattle, I'm at work or I'd tell you which page exactly), that are somewhat familiar... Not to mention, as stated up thread, that the authors pretty much admitted such. I mean hells, in Orcs' case you even have a conflict between a radical terrorist group Sons of Sauron and the pro - reform ORK...which probably does sound a bit familiar again.
For future ORCS ARE SOYLENT G- Blacks, I refer to various fluff pieces hailing even from the days of 2e, where Orcs are engaging in a familiar "The Man is keeping us down, man" and you have various conspiracy theories how Humanis is setting up abortion clinics in dominantly Orcish neighborhoods, etc. etc.
QuoteIf Trolls are Latinos and Orcs are Blacks, why do Orcs have the higher birth rate? If Ghouls are meant to be the fear of AIDS, why is it Orks who call humans "Breeders"? Are Dwarves the Jews, or Elves? Elves the European Elite Economic Class or is that the Dragons? Who are the Native Americans? Oh, the real Native Americans, but they're not really a repressed minority anymore because they took their land back and are a world power. So the UCAS is now the Native Americans, or are they the South and the Amerindians the North?
You are fallaciously assuming that a metaphor must somehow be 1 to 1, that if Orcs aren't engaging in Hip Hop culture they can't be an allegory for Black's ghettos. Not to mention that since the main premise of Shadowrun's des is not Social Mirror: The RPG, but Cyberpunk With Dragons: The Game. If anything, Elves'd be closer to the Jewish stereotype, as they are stereotypically thought of as the Hidden World's Elite, controlling everything behind the scenes along with Dragons (wasn't there even once mentioned a parody piece like Protocols of Elders of Tir naNog? I remember seeing something like that somewhere in the fluff, though I can't put my finger on). What are dwarves' harder to answer - perhaps they are simply Tolkien's dwarves, thrown into a rather unfamiliar world of high tech. As for Native Americans - they simply are what they are, a reborn culture with their own country thanks to the Awakening.
QuotePick a Cyberpunk dystopian theme, and Shadowrun hits it...hard. Pick a social ill, and Shadowrun hits it...hard. But it's addressing the conditions of humanity and society not focused social criticism. Renraku is not Mitsubishi, Damien Knight is not {insert corporate raider of choice} and Orks ain't Niggaz. Shadowrun describes the awakening of a brand new world (or the reemergence of a very old one) but despite the Magic, the Technology, the advancements of what metahumanity can do, humans are still humans, with the same old hates and the same old flaws, making the same old mistakes, as well as a whole slate of new ones.
I agree that to see Renraku as Mitsubishi is too shallow. Shadowrun's both attempting to tackle "How social issues would develop in this kind of world," but obviously also using some of the writing time to smack current world's problems through the lenses of mirror - verse.
QuoteIt's a mirror, not of Compton, but of humanity.
I'd say both.
QuoteMaybe we'll finally get someone now who can explain Stormbringer's "Dark Side of the Hobby" to us.
I wish he was here, though not necessarily for that.
Rince, remember the original quote I'm responding to.
"However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US."
The problem with this is of course, where are the Latinos and Blacks in Japan, where there is metahuman discrimination against Orks and Trolls? Or does this deliberately designed mirror morph magically into the Ainu, again with zero cultural or historical linkage? What about in Germany, where Orks and Trolls are discriminated against? Does this deliberately designed mirror now show us Eastern Europeans and Middle Easterners?
If the metaphorical stereotype fits any form of discrimination anywhere in the globe, at any time period, then it wasn't deliberately designed to mirror a goddamn thing, other than fucking discrimination itself as a core element of humanity.
You know, that motto of Shadowrun society...Plus ca change...
THAT'S the point. Everything changes...except us.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910182Rince, remember the original quote I'm responding to.
"However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US."
Well alright - so to be more precise, the Orks and Trolls in Shadowrun's Balkanized US are facing similiar challenges and their cultures and situation is depicted using both positive and negative stereotypes of corresponding cultures (look at American Orks predominant tendency to see gangs as extension of natural orkish tribalism).
QuoteThe problem with this is of course, where are the Latinos and Blacks in Japan, where there is metahuman discrimination against Orks and Trolls? Or does this deliberately designed mirror morph magically into the Ainu, again with zero cultural or historical linkage? What about in Germany, where Orks and Trolls are discriminated against? Does this deliberately designed mirror now show us Eastern Europeans and Middle Easterners?
I think this might be more like same problem Gibbson had - the fact that he never really cared much for lands outside of US more than a brief backdrop for Cool Ideas and Here Be Megacorps. In case of Japan, I'd say it'd be a general commentary on conservativism and reclusiveness of it's society - interesting enough, Shadowrun's not the first to lob a stone that Japan Nazis Are Just Biding It's Time - I'm not gonna quote a very scientific source here, but X - Men did exactly the same thing with Japan, and I think that and World World 2 atrocities are from where Shadowrun's creators were drawing their idea more than an in - depth analysis of Japanese society.
I can't speak on Germany in Shadowrun, as I've never read that sourcebook, and still playing Dragonfall, but how the Orks act there? In general I thought in Europe it's more Anarchists vs Megacorps & Dragons than racial issues. On the other hand, you jest but you might be on to something - depending how European Orks are actually depicted, I think it'd be interesting to look at them through the lenses of not Blacks, but general immigrants, especially Turkish/Arabic.
QuoteIf the metaphorical stereotype fits any form of discrimination anywhere in the globe, at any time period, then it wasn't deliberately designed to mirror a goddamn thing, other than fucking discrimination itself as a core element of humanity.
You know, that motto of Shadowrun society...Plus ca change...
I both agree and disagree - as I said, in large, Shadowrun is indeed tackling discrimination as a phenomena, and discrimination as occuring in a world So Different Yet So Similar to ours. But on the other hand - the drawings of allegories, at least when it comes to the North American societies and most downtrodden minorities in Shadowrun's settings, are not accidental. Perhaps we should look at it more like this - they are both a tool and a means to an end. A means to an end by which certain problems of our times are shown through the lenses of fantasy world (a classic move), and a tool - by using real world's problems' allegories, you can more easily engage in the general distopia of Shadowrun, seeing Familiar Yet Different tropes.
Yes, but the Allegory is general. Those aliens in Star Trek who were black on different halves weren't deliberately designed to mirror American Blacks, it was pointing out "Humans care about skin color and gee isn't that kind stupid." Agreed, there was some focus in that it was black on one side as opposed to green during the 60's, but that isn't exactly a carefully honed scalpel either.
An Ork isn't an American Black person. An Ork is a human being of any race, color or creed, who was born looking like or turned into the Uruk Hai out of LotR. He's big, strong, has fangs...and he's still human, in fact yesterday he was your human-looking brother, and he still is your brother and he's still human. Society flipped it's collective shit when people started goblinizing and HUMANS BEING HUMANS, his kind went through shit yeah, kinda like Blacks and Latinos, in part, but also like Japanese American citizens during WWII, Native Americans since whenever and every oppressed minority everywhere in the history of the world.
Saying they are a deliberately designed mirror to reflect the Black and Latino experience in America isn't even coloring with a paint-by-numbers book, there's one friggin' color. It's so shallow as to be patently ridiculous as in actually worthy of derision.
You want an actual example of a Deliberately Designed Mirror to reflect a specific cultural and racial reference point: District 9.
THAT'S what a deliberately designed mirror looks like, dude. Shadowrun Orks aren't even on the same continent, let alone ballpark.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910186Yes, but the Allegory is general. Those aliens in Star Trek who were black on different halves weren't deliberately designed to mirror American Blacks, it was pointing out "Humans care about skin color and gee isn't that kind stupid."
An Ork isn't an American Black person. An Ork is a human being of any race, color or creed, who was born looking like or turned into the Uruk Hai out of LotR. He's big, strong, has fangs...and he's still human, in fact yesterday he was your human-looking brother, and he still is your brother and he's still human. Society flipped it's collective shit when people started goblinizing and HUMANS BEING HUMANS, his kind went through shit yeah, kinda like Blacks and Latinos, in part, but also like Japanese American citizens during WWII, Native Americans since whenever and every oppressed minority everywhere in the history of the world.
Saying they are a deliberately designed mirror to reflect the Black and Latino experience in America isn't even coloring with a paint-by-numbers book, there's one friggin' color. It's so shallow as to be patently ridiculous as in actually worthy of derision.
You want an actual example of a Deliberately Designed Mirror to reflect a specific cultural and racial reference point: District 9.
THAT'S what a deliberately designed mirror looks like, dude. Shadowrun Orks aren't even on the same continent, let alone ballpark.
Again - you're confusing an idea that if there's a deliberately designed mirror, it needs to be a paraphrase, not a metaphor. Shadowrun's Seattle Goblinization Ghettos are showing all the traditional stereotypes of both Black and Latino cultures - tribal - style gangs, ubiquitous graffitti, heavy reliance and pride in use of slang (or Orkish) gang culture, different approaches to gaining Civil Rights (Black Panthers/Sons of Saurons vs Martin Luther King/ORK), and they are being hunted by literal mirror Ku Klux Klan. Just because Orks aren't listening to Fangie Smalls doesn't mean that they aren't a metaphor.
Again - I will agree that Shadowrun's racial depictions are tackling wider issues than just "Blacks & Latinos in 80s." Nobody's saying that the metaphor is shallow. But to say that, at the very least, Seattle Orks aren't used as a certain commentary or at the very least, a metaphor of inner- city Black&Latinos problems, would be also disingenuous, especially as the very creators supposedly agreed to such interpretation. And you can actually do both - you can tackle both a general issue, and a specific one, they aren't exclusive. If anything, Shadowrun used in case of Seattle the well established (if untrue, that's another discussion whether or not, but we've been there so many times I don't care to resurrect it) trope of "ORKS ARE BLACK PEOPLE" to both make a broader and narrower statement - on the issues of discrimination en large, and the issues of ghettoized Blacks.
We can argue to the end of time regarding rest of SR's world (in which case I'd generally agree with you, but with addendum), but Seattle itself I'd say was purposefully designed not just as a dystopian mirror of humanity, but in general, as a dystopian commentary on the times of the writing.
Every minority group has radicals and moderates, remember AIM, Leonard Peltier and the takeover of Alcatraz? Nothing specific to African Americans.
The role of poor, oppressed minorities in Shadowrun was taken over by Orks and Trolls because they were seen as even more "Other" than the oppressed minorities they replaced. It took freeing the slaves to make the Irish legit. There is always a new target.
Humanis kills Dwarves, Elves, Minotaurs, Gnomes, and anything "non-human". All those be da Niggaz now to?
It's ironic because by specifically making the Ork=Black comparison, you're making the Shadowrun designer's point for them. There are Black Orks, White Orks, Asian Orks, Hispanic Orks, Middle Eastern Orks, Aboriginal Orks, Rich Orks, Poor Orks, Right Wing Orks, Left Wing Orks, law-abiding Orks, criminal Orks, need I go on?
What you're doing is seeing "Ork" and drawing universal attributes based on superficial outer physical appearance. In other words, you're a Human and Humans tend to be "ist" even when arguing how terrible "ism" is.
That's the metaphor and it isn't deliberately designed to mirror any one single race's US experience.
FACT: I move the country in Shadowrun, I change who the Orks and Trolls are supposed to "deliberately mirror".
FACT: Orks and Trolls experience isn't limited to Orks and Trolls, even in Shadowrun Seattle.
When that's your metaphor, it works everywhere - this is not a prescription lens you're using, it's a pair of x2 magnifying lenses you get from a drugstore.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910190Every minority group has radicals and moderates, remember AIM, Leonard Peltier and the takeover of Alcatraz? Nothing specific to African Americans.
Sure, but most of them weren't just split on whether or not to use violent terrorist means to achieve Civil Rights recognition, as was the case with Black Panthers and MLK's Civil Rights. The metaphor of Sons of Saurons is about as obvious as the District 9 aliens.
QuoteThe role of poor, oppressed minorities in Shadowrun was taken over by Orks and Trolls because they were seen as even more "Other" than the oppressed minorities they replaced. It took freeing the slaves to make the Irish legit. There is always a new target.
Indeed - and you can use them for various metaphors, allegories, or just plain gaming. Seattle's having marks of a statement on modernity. Japan, as you noted, would have a more general warning of "Holocaust Can Happen Again." The Elves of Tir na nOg on the other hand, aren't exactly a metaphor of Israel. Not all things need to be mirror - image for part to be a metaphor, especially in settings that are created by dozens of writers.
QuoteHumanis kills Dwarves, Elves, Minotaurs, Gnomes, and anything "non-human". All those be da Niggaz now to?
KKK is also antisemitic, but let's face it, who's been their main point of business ever since the 20s? And just like Humanis, who occasionally kills Elves, they target mostly Orks and Trolls, because they are mostly the poor, easier targets, as well as engaging in anti - gang violence gives Humanis support - just like engaging in anti - gang violence in American South gave KKK the support. And again - fantasy world. Not everything needs to be 1 to 1, for another part to be a metaphor or allegory of something else.
QuoteIt's ironic because by specifically making the Ork=Black comparison, you're making the Shadowrun designer's point for them. There are Black Orks, White Orks, Asian Orks, Hispanic Orks, Middle Eastern Orks, Aboriginal Orks, Rich Orks, Poor Orks, Right Wing Orks, Left Wing Orks, law-abiding Orks, criminal Orks, need I go on?
Of course - but you need to remember it is specifically written that
1) Due to Awakening, skin colour no longer matters to anyone
2) I'm specifically talking about Seattle now, where the Orks & Trolls's Burrows/Barrens (crap, I forgot) are most obviously depicted as a metaphor for modern B&L ghettos with their problems. In a way, that's the beauty of game worlds - you can make yourself a small country where Orks are beating down on Humans to send the message "We're all shit if we get power over others"
QuoteWhat you're doing is seeing "Ork" and drawing universal attributes based on superficial outer physical appearance. In other words, you're a Human and Humans tend to be "ist" even when arguing how terrible "ism" is.
We're talking about game's designer intentions, not my personal views on the Orks in SR ;). Don't confuse the two - if I point out Orwell's anti - Stalinist message in 1984, does that automatically make me an anti - communist?
QuoteThat's the metaphor and it isn't deliberately designed to mirror any one single race's US experience.
And I agree, in large. But in case of Seattle, the similarities are too obvious, and helped by actual author's claims, to say that they weren't deliberate would be just bad analysis. Sure, in other parts of the worldi t's different - for example, I'd say that Berlin Free State being an allegory of Baader Meinhof success'd be too much of a stretch, though I'd be surprised if there was not a RAF - inspired faction in BFS.
I'd be willing to concede however, that in Seattle's case, even the use of familiar tropes such as Ghetto Blacks = Ghetto Orks, is used mostly to reinforce the general Dystopian Mirror of Cyberpunk With Magic, by providing issues familiar or at least knowledgeable to the players, rather than just using Shadowrun as a political soapbox (though again, one does not necessarily exclude the other).
It would nice of someone, anyone, would actually quote the Shadowrun designers who supposedly purposefully constructed this deliberately designed mirror.
Seattle has a large street kid population, they even made a documentary about it mid-80s. As the home of Microsoft, Boeing and other technical giants, Seattle had the tech Salary-Wage divide way earlier than the Bay Area did (of course, being California, Silicon Valley had to do things to stupid extremes). If you're going to claim any type of Seattle-specific metaphor, you'd actually be on base and not on the moon if you went for the enormous economic divide between Rich and Poor. Remember, in Seattle, even the Elves have their own slum, Tarislar. Ain't an Ork Thang - the Seattle Underground the Orks live in, the Dwarves were stuck down their first. Hey, cycles of oppressed peoples, it took the Orks and Trolls to make the Elves and Dwarves legit...where have I seen this before?
Quote from: Rincewind1;910195I'd be willing to concede however, that in Seattle's case, even the use of familiar tropes such as Ghetto Blacks = Ghetto Orks, is used mostly to reinforce the general Dystopian Mirror of Cyberpunk With Magic, by providing issues familiar or at least knowledgeable to the players, rather than just using Shadowrun as a political soapbox (though again, one does not necessarily exclude the other).
In Tir Tairngire, one of their television stations has a Simpson's-like comedy show about an Elven High Prince and the idiotic humans who live on his land. The translation from Sperethiel is something like "Keeper in the Monkey House".
In Tir Na Nog, the Elves have taken over Ireland and persecute all non-elves. Are Elves British? In Tir Na Nog, they might be. In the US they might be the nameless whitebred elites, in Europe they may be The Illuminati, in Japan they are the weird fascination with Western culture, everyone wants to fuck one, but no one wants to be one.
Plus ca change...Humans are Human. The Awakening changed the scenery, but we're still the fucked up a-holes we've always been.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910196It would nice of someone, anyone, would actually quote the Shadowrun designers who supposedly purposefully constructed this deliberately designed mirror.
Seattle has a large street kid population, they even made a documentary about it mid-80s. As the home of Microsoft, Boeing and other technical giants, Seattle had the tech Salary-Wage divide way earlier than the Bay Area did (of course, being California, Silicon Valley had to do things to stupid extremes). If you're going to claim any type of Seattle-specific metaphor, you'd actually be on base and not on the moon if you went for the enormous economic divide between Rich and Poor. Remember, in Seattle, even the Elves have their own slum, Tarislar. Ain't an Ork Thang - the Seattle Underground the Orks live in, the Dwarves were stuck down their first. Hey, cycles of oppressed peoples, it took the Orks and Trolls to make the Elves and Dwarves legit...where have I seen this before?
Of course - I've thought on this for a moment, and I think I can also word my arguments better. It's not just that Orks = Blacks, but the general wider argument whether or not the Seattle's Orks&Trolls are utilizing stereotypes of Blacks&Latinos in order to make a dystopian statement and a metaphor for inner- city B&L problems, or whether the similarities between O&Ts and B&Ls in Seattle are only used to provide a familiar metaphor that allows you to engage in the deeper problem of class & racial divides in dystopian magical future of SR, as it provides you with a familiar example. Myself, I do not think those are exclusive.
Didn't know about the street kids, but ironically enough I had an argument with my work buddy (we're both working for a certain megacorp currently based in Seattle ;) ) that Seattle was a shithole, with me defending it. Guess he was right.
Quote from: CRKrueger;910198In Tir Tairngire, one of their television stations has a Simpson's-like comedy show about an Elven High Prince and the idiotic humans who live on his land. The translation from Sperethiel is something like "Keeper in the Monkey House".
In Tir Na Nog, the Elves have taken over Ireland and persecute all non-elves. Are Elves British? In Tir Na Nog, they might be. In the US they might be the nameless whitebred elites, in Europe they may be The Illuminati, in Japan they are the weird fascination with Western culture, everyone wants to fuck one, but no one wants to be one.
Plus ca change...Humans are Human. The Awakening changed the scenery, but we're still the fucked up a-holes we've always been.
That sounds more like Gilligan's Island than Simpsons. But yes, I agree with you - I made exactly the same point. You can have Orks in one place be a standby for Inner - City Blacks, in another you can create a Balkanized offshot of Canada where Orks Have The Power, and it's hardly better. That's the beauty of Balkanized settings - you can put whatever City - State you desire, and make whatever statement you want, as long as it fits in the general dystopian idea of Shadowrun. However, I'll still stick that while rest of the world is all kinds of crazy but not directly allegorical, the Seattle's design used various real - life problems dressed in fantasy cyberpunk aesthetic the strongest, even getting a little soapboxy about it.
Quote from: IskandarKebab;909905In most RPG settings, you'd be correct. However, in Shadowrun the discrimination faced by Orks and Trolls was deliberately designed to mirror the challenges faced by Hispanics and African Americans in the US.
Citation and quote of the 1e designers saying that this was so in Shadowrun 1e?
Not gamers saying "look at the game and it's obvious" or "in this 3rd edition sourcebook". A point blank quote from the designers about the First Edition of Shadowrun saying that Orks and Trolls were deliberately designed to mirror Hispanics and African Americans. In short, put up or shut up. Where is the incontrovertable proof that this was a deliberate design choice?
As far as ork and troll slums in Seattle being cesspools with graffiti and inhabitants using their own slang? It's the Barrens. The human and elven slums are every bit as bad.
And to the comment a few pages back about Tolkien's use of swarthy easterners? Being a historian, I'm willing to wager he did so as short hand, based upona culture that conquered Spain and southern France, spent tbe better part on a century invading france after getting chased out, occupied Sicily, invaded Italy numerous time including sack Rome at least once, conquered Anatolia and invaded Hungery several times.
So, easy short hand.
Quote from: DavetheLost;910210Citation and quote of the 1e designers saying that this was so in Shadowrun 1e?
I'll see what I can find, but this was in the days before widespread gamer Internet access outside of Usenet. It was in a printed zine or something, IIRC.
That said, it can't be
that hard to track down Paul Hume and Tom Dowd and just ask them.
Okay good stuff on this thread (I also met Olivier Gruner in Venice Beach and he was telling me and my friends about his movie Nemesis. My reaction after seeing it was like yours. Except we were already playing CP2020 at the time so it landed perfectly.)
I can't speak about SR - but I'll toss some bits about CP2020 Martial Arts
CP Martial arts can be *very* simple or very complex if you toss in the rules from Pacific Rim. In CP2020 you simply roll your attack (Ref+Martial Art Skill+d10) but the TYPE of attack matters. There is a table for manuevers - each Martial Art type gives you a bonus to do certain maneuvers. So you get those as bonuses to the attack roll. The damage is depending on what you hit with. Fist is 1d6/2 and a kick is d6 + your SKILL RANK. So someone with a 7-10 in their Martial Art is kicking harder than your average low-caliber gunshot. Add in enhancements like Cyberlegs (2d6 - with modifications that can take it higher) - and yeah you can kick the fucking head off an opponent with frightening ease.
To Defend - the defenders gets to roll their Ref+Skill+d10 and apply a martial art defense maneuver bonus (if any).
So yeah it has this lethal Bloodsport effect where badasses will quickly kick the shit out of those who aren't badasses. But put two badasses together? And you can have a surprisingly exciting slugfest like Bruce Lee vs. Chuck "Hairy Chest Era" Norris in the fake Colosseum.
If you decide to bring Pacific Rim into the mix - then you're cranking up the complexity (too much imo). They have ranges for combat - Striking, Trapping, Grappling. And those ranges further change the bonuses of the specific martial arts.
Overall - hand-to-hand in CP2020 can be beautifully brutal and fast.
IZ2 - It's dangerous like any SW game is. Once you add Cyberware and the right Edges, it feels very cinematic and can be extremely deadly to those less skilled. To opponents of equal caliber - you can have those tense multi-round fights, but it doesn't QUITE match the speed and directness of CP2020. But it's still very good.
Quote from: Bren;908914How so? Unlike data, minerals have mass and size. A corporate spy can't steal 10 tons of iridium and hide it in her shiny, aluminum briefcase.
One of the best adventures we played in CP was to steal genetic data.... in the form of a horse!
Quote from: tenbones;922547Okay good stuff on this thread (I also met Olivier Gruner in Venice Beach and he was telling me and my friends about his movie Nemesis. My reaction after seeing it was like yours. Except we were already playing CP2020 at the time so it landed perfectly.)
I can't speak about SR - but I'll toss some bits about CP2020 Martial Arts
CP Martial arts can be *very* simple or very complex if you toss in the rules from Pacific Rim. In CP2020 you simply roll your attack (Ref+Martial Art Skill+d10) but the TYPE of attack matters. There is a table for manuevers - each Martial Art type gives you a bonus to do certain maneuvers. So you get those as bonuses to the attack roll. The damage is depending on what you hit with. Fist is 1d6/2 and a kick is d6 + your SKILL RANK. So someone with a 7-10 in their Martial Art is kicking harder than your average low-caliber gunshot. Add in enhancements like Cyberlegs (2d6 - with modifications that can take it higher) - and yeah you can kick the fucking head off an opponent with frightening ease.
To Defend - the defenders gets to roll their Ref+Skill+d10 and apply a martial art defense maneuver bonus (if any).
So yeah it has this lethal Bloodsport effect where badasses will quickly kick the shit out of those who aren't badasses. But put two badasses together? And you can have a surprisingly exciting slugfest like Bruce Lee vs. Chuck "Hairy Chest Era" Norris in the fake Colosseum.
If you decide to bring Pacific Rim into the mix - then you're cranking up the complexity (too much imo). They have ranges for combat - Striking, Trapping, Grappling. And those ranges further change the bonuses of the specific martial arts.
Overall - hand-to-hand in CP2020 can be beautifully brutal and fast.
IZ2 - It's dangerous like any SW game is. Once you add Cyberware and the right Edges, it feels very cinematic and can be extremely deadly to those less skilled. To opponents of equal caliber - you can have those tense multi-round fights, but it doesn't QUITE match the speed and directness of CP2020. But it's still very good.
Got to be on the ball with those humanity rolls though. They can and will fuck you up, and therapy is something that takes time.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1044931Got to be on the ball with those humanity rolls though. They can and will fuck you up, and therapy is something that takes time.
Nice Necrokick-rez!
c'mon man - no one going full cyber gives a toss about humanity! That just gets in the way!
Quote from: tenbones;1045211Nice Necrokick-rez!
c'mon man - no one going full cyber gives a toss about humanity! That just gets in the way!
Going full brain in jar bottoms your humanity. Sure, you're an unstoppable juggernaut (until the anti-borg weapons come into play), but you're so damned crazy you might as well be a 40k Dreadnaught and put to sleep between massacres.
Quote from: tenbones;1045211Nice Necrokick-rez!
c'mon man - no one going full cyber gives a toss about humanity! That just gets in the way!
As one player said, "Humanity... I'll buy the chip!"
I guess I'm the usual forum weirdo who likes SR 5E ( though 4E had better editing). 4E and later fixed all the flaws that 3E did imo. Until $E almost no one at my tables wanted to play a hacker because imo the system built around that class was utter and complete shit. Yeah 4E then 5E has it's issues at least it made my group and myself want to run the matrix again at our tables. Where before we had to be paid a minimum six figure amount to do so. I never plated Cyberpunk 2020. I have heard of it and know those that have. I guess I preferred magic with my Cyberpunk even if it was not strictly in genre. Has everyone forgotten the terrible art that the latest edition had. Poser art in a rpg where the figures looked like barbie dolls on the page.
I'll throw my hat in the ring for Shadowrun Anarchy. It's the rules-light/narrative version (based off 5e). My group's had a lot of fun running old modules using Anarchy. Conversion is a snap.
However the book is horribly laid out. Finding what few rules there are, can be difficult. Fortunately there's a free fan-made Narration Aid out on the net, and it really helps to fill in some of the gaps in the game system.
I feel like I'm the only person who liked SR 1e. I remember when 2e came out, those of us playing didn't like the changes, although I can't recall what was different in that edition.
We played SR 1e as a Monty Haul campaign with a heavy focus on guns, guns, guns. It's been about twenty years since I played SR. I've been thinking about doing something with it, but I'd definitely do things differently than what the crew used to.
I liked CP2020 more, but few people in the old crew agreed. I didn't particularly like the fantasy elements of SR and wanted a game where it was pure sci-fi. Even though I liked SR1e, I liked the Interlock system more.
As for Matrix/Netrunning stuff, we never did that. The guy GMing the game didn't understand the rules for it in SR. I think my preferred Matrix rules would be a hybrid of those in SR1e and CP2013.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1045354As for Matrix/Netrunning stuff, we never did that. The guy GMing the game didn't understand the rules for it in SR. I think my preferred Matrix rules would be a hybrid of those in SR1e and CP2013.
A GM who understood the Matrix rules and how to keep it moving along quickly is golden. My buddy and I who both took turns running SR3 both played and deckers so we knew it well. The SR3 rules were actually pretty good. Once you mastered them. Which was the hump you had to get over.
Ditto with the Vehicle Chase/Rigging rules.
The world of Shadowrun was always very interesting. The RULES of Shadowrun were always varying degrees of terrible.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1046570The world of Shadowrun was always very interesting. The RULES of Shadowrun were always varying degrees of terrible.
Can't argue with that.
Only way I managed to run SR4 was by deciding which rules fit both the group and story and throwing the rest out.
Not once has the rule for treading water ever been used, and I think the chunky salsa rule got used once.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1046570The world of Shadowrun was always very interesting. The RULES of Shadowrun were always varying degrees of terrible.
Yup.
Edit: Although I did not like the direction the setting took from after the conclusion of the Renraku Arcology shutdown. Brainscan was an incredibly fun campaign to run and my players still talk about it. SURGE and the comet and the second Matrix crash which led into 4th was terrible and the line developers from then on wanted to focus on transhumanism and utopianism instead of what made Shadowrun awesome.
Quote from: KingCheops;1046626Yup.
Edit: Although I did not like the direction the setting took from after the conclusion of the Renraku Arcology shutdown. Brainscan was an incredibly fun campaign to run and my players still talk about it. SURGE and the comet and the second Matrix crash which led into 4th was terrible and the line developers from then on wanted to focus on transhumanism and utopianism instead of what made Shadowrun awesome.
True. The pre-4th stuff was better, setting-wise.