Interesting discussion on Open gaming and the OGL over at Yogsothoth.com. Looks like a bunch of guys tried to make a Call of Cthulhu retroclone under the OGL and got slapped by the Chaosium dudes. Sparked now a whole argument on the OGL, copyright, and all kinds of shit. Interesting reading.

https://www.yog-sothoth.com/forums/topic/33031-open-cthulhu-announcing-public-beta-release-of-open-cthulhu-srd/

The Resistance Toolbox.  It's an SRD released under Creative Commons.  This is the rules set used in Spire, the game where you play Drow who form a resistance movement to fight back against the High Elves that took over their city.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093922Interesting discussion on Open gaming and the OGL over at Yogsothoth.com. Looks like a bunch of guys tried to make a Call of Cthulhu retroclone under the OGL and got slapped by the Chaosium dudes. Sparked now a whole argument on the OGL, copyright, and all kinds of shit. Interesting reading.

https://www.yog-sothoth.com/forums/topic/33031-open-cthulhu-announcing-public-beta-release-of-open-cthulhu-srd/

Can you give a few more details?  The link is behind a memberwall, and new user registration is suspended from 06/28 to 07/07.

Quote from: kythri;1093930Can you give a few more details?  The link is behind a memberwall, and new user registration is suspended from 06/28 to 07/07.

Okay, so, bunch Cthulhu fans who are pissed at 7th edition decided to get together and do 'Open Cthulhu' using the OGL and rules from BRP games also using the OGL. Seems they didn't do any checking with Chaosium dudes, made an announcement that they had a version ready to launch on YS.com (and RPGnet). Open Cthulhu guys got hit with a pretty terse C&D order from Chaosium, as did YS.com for 'hosting' a link to the Open Cthulhu website, as did TBP.

Whole debacle has now sparked a 6 or 7 page discussion on whether the OGL can be challenged (cuz Chaosium are challenging it somehow over something Mongoose once did), what copyrights were infringed, whether the C&D notice was too heavy handed, and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting reading, and the usual speculation and IANAL shit, but seems to me that Chaosium is challenging how legit the OGL is when applied to Cthulhu and other games it owns like Runequest. This may carry over to Delta Green and Riders of R'lyeh which were also OGL. Like, are Chaosium going to slap down these guys too? Can they legally do so? What does that mean for the OGL if it can challenged?

Thank you.  I'll certainly register on that board when registration opens up, so I can keep an eye on it.

I'm a fan of copyright arguments (especially as they pertain to gaming stuffs), so it's always fun to see a current event.  I'm eagerly awaiting 2023 (Lots of Disney copyrights expiring, I'm curious how much they're going to spend to buy another extension).

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093932Okay, so, bunch Cthulhu fans who are pissed at 7th edition decided to get together and do 'Open Cthulhu' using the OGL and rules from BRP games also using the OGL. Seems they didn't do any checking with Chaosium dudes, made an announcement that they had a version ready to launch on YS.com (and RPGnet). Open Cthulhu guys got hit with a pretty terse C&D order from Chaosium, as did YS.com for 'hosting' a link to the Open Cthulhu website, as did TBP.

Whole debacle has now sparked a 6 or 7 page discussion on whether the OGL can be challenged (cuz Chaosium are challenging it somehow over something Mongoose once did), what copyrights were infringed, whether the C&D notice was too heavy handed, and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting reading, and the usual speculation and IANAL shit, but seems to me that Chaosium is challenging how legit the OGL is when applied to Cthulhu and other games it owns like Runequest. This may carry over to Delta Green and Riders of R'lyeh which were also OGL. Like, are Chaosium going to slap down these guys too? Can they legally do so? What does that mean for the OGL if it can challenged?

Can the OGL be challenged? Well you can file a law suit, if you can win is another thing altogether.
Cthulhu and it's mythos are in the public domain.
IF Chaosium published those games and put them under the OGL (unmodified) they have less of a leg to stand on.
Of course this could be a dick measuring contest from Chaosium protecting their IP by intimidation.
Or it could be they guys took some text not in the OGL, or that Chaosium released BRP under a tricked license exactly to allow them to fuck over the competition..
But remember, they can't copyright the underlying mechanics to their ruleset.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093932Okay, so, bunch Cthulhu fans who are pissed at 7th edition decided to get together and do 'Open Cthulhu' using the OGL and rules from BRP games also using the OGL. Seems they didn't do any checking with Chaosium dudes, made an announcement that they had a version ready to launch on YS.com (and RPGnet). Open Cthulhu guys got hit with a pretty terse C&D order from Chaosium, as did YS.com for 'hosting' a link to the Open Cthulhu website, as did TBP.

Whole debacle has now sparked a 6 or 7 page discussion on whether the OGL can be challenged (cuz Chaosium are challenging it somehow over something Mongoose once did), what copyrights were infringed, whether the C&D notice was too heavy handed, and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting reading, and the usual speculation and IANAL shit, but seems to me that Chaosium is challenging how legit the OGL is when applied to Cthulhu and other games it owns like Runequest. This may carry over to Delta Green and Riders of R'lyeh which were also OGL. Like, are Chaosium going to slap down these guys too? Can they legally do so? What does that mean for the OGL if it can challenged?

   From this description, it sounds like they're challenging stuff that Mongoose released to the OGL when the latter was licensing Runequest from them, on the grounds that Mongoose had no rights to do so.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093934Can the OGL be challenged? Well you can file a law suit, if you can win is another thing altogether.
Cthulhu and it's mythos are in the public domain.
IF Chaosium published those games and put them under the OGL (unmodified) they have less of a leg to stand on.
Of course this could be a dick measuring contest from Chaosium protecting their IP by intimidation.
Or it could be they guys took some text not in the OGL, or that Chaosium released BRP under a tricked license exactly to allow them to fuck over the competition..
But remember, they can't copyright the underlying mechanics to their ruleset.

The Chaosium takedown seems to be predicated on this Open Cthulhu thing including some stuff that's Chaosium copyright and stuff that's not in the PD written by people like Derleth and Ramsey Campbell. AFAIK, Chaosium doesn't use the OGL at all, and have their own licensing contracts for fans and commercials.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1093935From this description, it sounds like they're challenging stuff that Mongoose released to the OGL when the latter was licensing Runequest from them, on the grounds that Mongoose had no rights to do so.

Yeah. There's this on the Chaosium boards. https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/

I didn't even know that Mongoose did a Runequest game.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093937Yeah. There's this on the Chaosium boards. https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/

I didn't even know that Mongoose did a Runequest game.

This affects the OpenQuest book too, since they were using Moongose's OGL'd material.

Opening the Dark is an OGL clone of the Storyteller System.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093938This affects the OpenQuest book too, since they were using Moongose's OGL'd material.

While OpenQuest currently uses the MRQ OGl, it's always been approved by Chaosium. A new OpenQuest OGL will replace the current one soon. So no one has to worry about OQ or games that use it losing their OGL

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093937Yeah. There's this on the Chaosium boards. https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/ I didn't even know that Mongoose did a Runequest game.

This seems like an IP minefield, but this seems questionable. Any IP owner will exert as much right as they can in order to protect those rights. But my read here is that they are saying the use of Mongoose's SRD is no longer valid because the Mongoose license was terminated and that Mongoose didn't have that right to begin with, which smells of "X is absolutely true, but in case it isn't...".

If Mongoose was violating the Chaosium IP over many years, why didn't Chaosium defend their IP at that time?

Quote from: Newt;1093946While OpenQuest currently uses the MRQ OGl, it's always been approved by Chaosium. A new OpenQuest OGL will replace the current one soon. So no one has to worry about OQ or games that use it losing their OGL

Reading the legal stuff at the end of your pdf it cites Mongoose's, yes, Chaosium has always allowed it, but. What if I decide to take OpenQuest and use it to make OpenCthulhu? Will they do the same?

Quote from: Lynn;1093949This seems like an IP minefield, but this seems questionable. Any IP owner will exert as much right as they can in order to protect those rights. But my read here is that they are saying the use of Mongoose's SRD is no longer valid because the Mongoose license was terminated and that Mongoose didn't have that right to begin with, which smells of "X is absolutely true, but in case it isn't...".

If Mongoose was violating the Chaosium IP over many years, why didn't Chaosium defend their IP at that time?

Not only that, currently there are several d100 based games using the same stuff, yet none is being made to stop. This might have a legal meaning or not (not an expert myself), but all of that is useless if you don't have the money needed to stand a lawsuit even if you had 100% chance of wining.

I feel we don't have enough info on this, and (at least me) lack the knowledge to make a judgment on if it's just a dick move or not.