For starters my favorite (I'm biased I started playing with the best Star Wars game ever) : WEG's OpenD6 Adventure, Fantasy & Space (https://ogc.rpglibrary.org/index.php?title=OpenD6)
Edited to add the "Official" OpenD6 SRD (http://opend6project.org/)
EDIT: 06/28/19 Removed the OpenQuest links because of this
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1093935From this description, it sounds like they're challenging stuff that Mongoose released to the OGL when the latter was licensing Runequest from them, on the grounds that Mongoose had no rights to do so.
Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093937Yeah. There's this on the Chaosium boards. https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/
I didn't even know that Mongoose did a Runequest game.
Fuzion/Hero Action! System OGL Pack (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/28867/Action-System-OGL-Pack?src=also_purchased) & Action! System Core Rules Full Version (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16761/Action-System-Core-Rules-Full-Version) Also:
Open Core Role Playing System Classic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2727/Open-Core-Role-Playing-System-Classic) & its sister anime book Open Anime (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/81232/Open-Anime)
And lets not forget a system that has been in everybody's mind lately:
QuoteInterlock Unlimited IS free but not under the OGL (Sorry)
I know I must have forgotten some, feel free to add yours.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093701For starters my favorite (I'm biased I started playing with the best Star Wars game ever) : WEG's OpenD6 Adventure, Fantasy & Space (https://ogc.rpglibrary.org/index.php?title=OpenD6)
OpenQuest Developers Kit (OpenQuest SRD in word format) (https://d101games.com/openquest/openquest-developers-kit/)
OpenQuest Basic Edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/127007/OpenQuest-Basic-Edition)
OpenQuest Complete (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211084/OpenQuest)
Fuzion/Hero Action! System OGL Pack (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/28867/Action-System-OGL-Pack?src=also_purchased) & Action! System Core Rules Full Version (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16761/Action-System-Core-Rules-Full-Version) Also:
Open Core Role Playing System Classic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2727/Open-Core-Role-Playing-System-Classic) & its sister anime book Open Anime (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/81232/Open-Anime)
And lets not forget a system that has been in everybody's mind lately: Interlock Unlimited (https://datafortress2020.com/InterlockUnlimited.html)
I know I must have forgotten some, feel free to ad yours.
John Kim, a frequent poster here, has a great list of open gaming systems:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/
Quote from: Aglondir;1093708John Kim, a frequent poster here, has a great list of open gaming systems:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/
Excellent!
His D100II SRD link is a 404 I think it should be the same I linked as Open quest Developers Kit?
Also his OpenD6 SRD is great but. There's an "official" (http://opend6project.org/) one easier to navigate. And the OpenD6 in my original post has the legal PDFs separated by genre.
Quote from: Aglondir;1093708John Kim, a frequent poster here, has a great list of open gaming systems:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093709Excellent!
His D100II SRD link is a 404 I think it should be the same I linked as Open quest Developers Kit?
Also his OpenD6 SRD is great but. There's an "official" (http://opend6project.org/) one easier to navigate. And the OpenD6 in my original post has the legal PDFs separated by genre.
Thanks! I've put in updates for D100II and added OpenQuest.
That list had been 7 years old -- so if you know of more additions or corrections, I'd be glad to take them.
Here's another
https://www.dicegeeks.com/rpg-srds/
Quote from: jhkim;1093716Thanks! I've put in updates for D100II and added OpenQuest.
That list had been 7 years old -- so if you know of more additions or corrections, I'd be glad to take them.
Can't find one for Cepheus Engine, but here's Mong Trav:
http://www.traveller-srd.com/
Quote from: Aglondir;1093719Can't find one for Cepheus Engine, but here's Mong Trav:
http://www.traveller-srd.com/
Thanks. It looks like there's more at the Open Gaming Network. Though many of the docs are sucky for downloading or editing as documents.
http://opengamingnetwork.com/
EDITED TO ADD:
Also, Cepheus Engine in PDF is on Drivethru,
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186894/Cepheus-Engine-System-Reference-Document
And the Traveller SRD editable on Enworld:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=120
Quote from: Aglondir;1093719Can't find one for Cepheus Engine, but here's Mong Trav:
http://www.traveller-srd.com/
Document
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/187941/Cepheus-Engine-SRD-Modifiable-Version
More traditional format.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186894/Cepheus-Engine-System-Reference-Document
Is JAGS open?
Quote from: David Johansen;1093726Is JAGS open?
According to the core page, JAGS Revised is not open, but it has a lite version (JAGS-2) that is released under the GNU Free Documentation License. (Not compatible with the WotC OGL.)
https://www.jagsrpg.com/about
QuoteJAGS (Just Another Gaming System) is a free, universal table-top traditional roleplaying game. It was first published in 2001 and has undergone a couple of revisions along the way. The JAGS Team is committed to producing high quality, hopefully well thought-out roleplaying material with good production values and our best attempt at giving you highly gameable material for endless adventures!
JAGS-2 is a "lite" version of the game that is compatible and licensed under the FDL (open source).
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093701...
And lets not forget a system that has been in everybody's mind lately: Interlock Unlimited (https://datafortress2020.com/InterlockUnlimited.html)
....
I don't believe this has an open license. I think Mike just gave Deric permission to refine, remix and share his work for free on the InterTubes...
Quote from: estar;1093725Document
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/187941/Cepheus-Engine-SRD-Modifiable-Version
More traditional format.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186894/Cepheus-Engine-System-Reference-Document
Cepheus Light PDF
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/257644/Cepheus-Light
Cepheus Light Word Document
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/260927/Cepheus-Light-Editable-Version
Cepheus Faster Than Light PDF
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/263755/Cepheus-Faster-Than-Light
Cepheus Faster Than Light Word Document
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/265052/Cepheus-Faster-Than-Light-Editable-Version
Quote from: trechriron;1093729I don't believe this has an open license. I think Mike just gave Deric permission to refine, remix and share his work for free on the InterTubes...
Thanks, you are correct, it's free but not libre.
Arcamum was released under some sort of CC license
http://zila-games.com/arcanum-srd/
I'm not well versed in the CC license, but I think it's just sharing, not commercial works.
Quote from: JeremyR;1093870Arcamum was released under some sort of CC license
http://zila-games.com/arcanum-srd/
I'm not well versed in the CC license, but I think it's just sharing, not commercial works.
It's Share-Alike (CC BY-SA 4.0), so it technically allows commercial works, but if you make a derivative work, anyone can make a copy of your derivative work and share it for free. So not very useful to most commercial developers.
Interesting discussion on Open gaming and the OGL over at Yogsothoth.com. Looks like a bunch of guys tried to make a Call of Cthulhu retroclone under the OGL and got slapped by the Chaosium dudes. Sparked now a whole argument on the OGL, copyright, and all kinds of shit. Interesting reading.
https://www.yog-sothoth.com/forums/topic/33031-open-cthulhu-announcing-public-beta-release-of-open-cthulhu-srd/
The Resistance Toolbox (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/254150/Resistance-Toolbox?manufacturers_id=11612). It's an SRD released under Creative Commons. This is the rules set used in Spire, the game where you play Drow who form a resistance movement to fight back against the High Elves that took over their city.
Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093922Interesting discussion on Open gaming and the OGL over at Yogsothoth.com. Looks like a bunch of guys tried to make a Call of Cthulhu retroclone under the OGL and got slapped by the Chaosium dudes. Sparked now a whole argument on the OGL, copyright, and all kinds of shit. Interesting reading.
https://www.yog-sothoth.com/forums/topic/33031-open-cthulhu-announcing-public-beta-release-of-open-cthulhu-srd/
Can you give a few more details? The link is behind a memberwall, and new user registration is suspended from 06/28 to 07/07.
Quote from: kythri;1093930Can you give a few more details? The link is behind a memberwall, and new user registration is suspended from 06/28 to 07/07.
Okay, so, bunch Cthulhu fans who are pissed at 7th edition decided to get together and do 'Open Cthulhu' using the OGL and rules from BRP games also using the OGL. Seems they didn't do any checking with Chaosium dudes, made an announcement that they had a version ready to launch on YS.com (and RPGnet). Open Cthulhu guys got hit with a pretty terse C&D order from Chaosium, as did YS.com for 'hosting' a link to the Open Cthulhu website, as did TBP.
Whole debacle has now sparked a 6 or 7 page discussion on whether the OGL can be challenged (cuz Chaosium are challenging it somehow over something Mongoose once did), what copyrights were infringed, whether the C&D notice was too heavy handed, and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting reading, and the usual speculation and IANAL shit, but seems to me that Chaosium is challenging how legit the OGL is when applied to Cthulhu and other games it owns like Runequest. This may carry over to Delta Green and Riders of R'lyeh which were also OGL. Like, are Chaosium going to slap down these guys too? Can they legally do so? What does that mean for the OGL if it can challenged?
Thank you. I'll certainly register on that board when registration opens up, so I can keep an eye on it.
I'm a fan of copyright arguments (especially as they pertain to gaming stuffs), so it's always fun to see a current event. I'm eagerly awaiting 2023 (Lots of Disney copyrights expiring, I'm curious how much they're going to spend to buy another extension).
Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093932Okay, so, bunch Cthulhu fans who are pissed at 7th edition decided to get together and do 'Open Cthulhu' using the OGL and rules from BRP games also using the OGL. Seems they didn't do any checking with Chaosium dudes, made an announcement that they had a version ready to launch on YS.com (and RPGnet). Open Cthulhu guys got hit with a pretty terse C&D order from Chaosium, as did YS.com for 'hosting' a link to the Open Cthulhu website, as did TBP.
Whole debacle has now sparked a 6 or 7 page discussion on whether the OGL can be challenged (cuz Chaosium are challenging it somehow over something Mongoose once did), what copyrights were infringed, whether the C&D notice was too heavy handed, and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting reading, and the usual speculation and IANAL shit, but seems to me that Chaosium is challenging how legit the OGL is when applied to Cthulhu and other games it owns like Runequest. This may carry over to Delta Green and Riders of R'lyeh which were also OGL. Like, are Chaosium going to slap down these guys too? Can they legally do so? What does that mean for the OGL if it can challenged?
Can the OGL be challenged? Well you can file a law suit, if you can win is another thing altogether.
Cthulhu and it's mythos are in the public domain.
IF Chaosium published those games and put them under the OGL (unmodified) they have less of a leg to stand on.
Of course this could be a dick measuring contest from Chaosium protecting their IP by intimidation.
Or it could be they guys took some text not in the OGL, or that Chaosium released BRP under a tricked license exactly to allow them to fuck over the competition..
But remember, they can't copyright the underlying mechanics to their ruleset.
Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093932Okay, so, bunch Cthulhu fans who are pissed at 7th edition decided to get together and do 'Open Cthulhu' using the OGL and rules from BRP games also using the OGL. Seems they didn't do any checking with Chaosium dudes, made an announcement that they had a version ready to launch on YS.com (and RPGnet). Open Cthulhu guys got hit with a pretty terse C&D order from Chaosium, as did YS.com for 'hosting' a link to the Open Cthulhu website, as did TBP.
Whole debacle has now sparked a 6 or 7 page discussion on whether the OGL can be challenged (cuz Chaosium are challenging it somehow over something Mongoose once did), what copyrights were infringed, whether the C&D notice was too heavy handed, and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting reading, and the usual speculation and IANAL shit, but seems to me that Chaosium is challenging how legit the OGL is when applied to Cthulhu and other games it owns like Runequest. This may carry over to Delta Green and Riders of R'lyeh which were also OGL. Like, are Chaosium going to slap down these guys too? Can they legally do so? What does that mean for the OGL if it can challenged?
From this description, it sounds like they're challenging stuff that Mongoose released to the OGL when the latter was licensing Runequest from them, on the grounds that Mongoose had no rights to do so.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093934Can the OGL be challenged? Well you can file a law suit, if you can win is another thing altogether.
Cthulhu and it's mythos are in the public domain.
IF Chaosium published those games and put them under the OGL (unmodified) they have less of a leg to stand on.
Of course this could be a dick measuring contest from Chaosium protecting their IP by intimidation.
Or it could be they guys took some text not in the OGL, or that Chaosium released BRP under a tricked license exactly to allow them to fuck over the competition..
But remember, they can't copyright the underlying mechanics to their ruleset.
The Chaosium takedown seems to be predicated on this Open Cthulhu thing including some stuff that's Chaosium copyright and stuff that's not in the PD written by people like Derleth and Ramsey Campbell. AFAIK, Chaosium doesn't use the OGL at all, and have their own licensing contracts for fans and commercials.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1093935From this description, it sounds like they're challenging stuff that Mongoose released to the OGL when the latter was licensing Runequest from them, on the grounds that Mongoose had no rights to do so.
Yeah. There's this on the Chaosium boards. https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/
I didn't even know that Mongoose did a Runequest game.
Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093937Yeah. There's this on the Chaosium boards. https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/
I didn't even know that Mongoose did a Runequest game.
This affects the OpenQuest book too, since they were using Moongose's OGL'd material.
Opening the Dark (https://www.scribd.com/lists/2653023/Opening-the-Dark) is an OGL clone of the Storyteller System.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093938This affects the OpenQuest book too, since they were using Moongose's OGL'd material.
While OpenQuest currently uses the MRQ OGl, it's always been approved by Chaosium. A new OpenQuest OGL will replace the current one soon. So no one has to worry about OQ or games that use it losing their OGL :)
Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1093937Yeah. There's this on the Chaosium boards. https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/ I didn't even know that Mongoose did a Runequest game.
This seems like an IP minefield, but this seems questionable. Any IP owner will exert as much right as they can in order to protect those rights. But my read here is that they are saying the use of Mongoose's SRD is no longer valid because the Mongoose license was terminated
and that Mongoose didn't have that right to begin with, which smells of "X is absolutely true, but in case it isn't...".
If Mongoose was violating the Chaosium IP over many years, why didn't Chaosium defend their IP at that time?
Quote from: Newt;1093946While OpenQuest currently uses the MRQ OGl, it's always been approved by Chaosium. A new OpenQuest OGL will replace the current one soon. So no one has to worry about OQ or games that use it losing their OGL :)
Reading the legal stuff at the end of your pdf it cites Mongoose's, yes, Chaosium has always allowed it, but. What if I decide to take OpenQuest and use it to make OpenCthulhu? Will they do the same?
Quote from: Lynn;1093949This seems like an IP minefield, but this seems questionable. Any IP owner will exert as much right as they can in order to protect those rights. But my read here is that they are saying the use of Mongoose's SRD is no longer valid because the Mongoose license was terminated and that Mongoose didn't have that right to begin with, which smells of "X is absolutely true, but in case it isn't...".
If Mongoose was violating the Chaosium IP over many years, why didn't Chaosium defend their IP at that time?
Not only that, currently there are several d100 based games using the same stuff, yet none is being made to stop. This might have a legal meaning or not (not an expert myself), but all of that is useless if you don't have the money needed to stand a lawsuit even if you had 100% chance of wining.
I feel we don't have enough info on this, and (at least me) lack the knowledge to make a judgment on if it's just a dick move or not.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1093941Opening the Dark (https://www.scribd.com/lists/2653023/Opening-the-Dark) is an OGL clone of the Storyteller System.
Nope, it's a CC-By-NC, so not any OGL license.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093956I feel we don't have enough info on this, and (at least me) lack the knowledge to make a judgment on if it's just a dick move or not.
Yeah, i'd like to read what's being discussed on Yog-Sothoth myself, beforehand. It was mentioned above that Chaosium's takedown/C&D involved Derleth copyrights? I wasn't aware that Chaosium was the agent for the Derleth estate.
Quote from: kythri;1093958Yeah, i'd like to read what's being discussed on Yog-Sothoth myself, beforehand. It was mentioned above that Chaosium's takedown/C&D involved Derleth copyrights? I wasn't aware that Chaosium was the agent for the Derleth estate.
From what I can see on that YS.com thread, Chaosium weren't trying to claim they were Derleth's agents or acting on his behalf, but pointing out that the Open Cthulhu thing infringed on several copyright areas - some theirs, some belonging to others. You need to read the thread itself really.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093953Reading the legal stuff at the end of your pdf it cites Mongoose's, yes, Chaosium has always allowed it, but. What if I decide to take OpenQuest and use it to make OpenCthulhu? Will they do the same?
Yes. The relevant bit of the OGL is Section 7, which bascially says you invalidate the license if you use someone one else's IP and that the OGL doesn't give you license to use someone elses IP unless you have the writen consent of the IP's owner.
What people tend to do is contact me and say "Err can I use OpenQuest to be the base of my Simarillion RPG?" and I say "Heck no! Do you have Tolkien Enterprise's written permission" (that's a true example, once the author pulled out all the Tolkien references and worked on it abit more to make it more its own thing it became Age of Shadows :) )
I've lost count of the number of times people have said I should do OpenQuest Cthulhu and I simply turn round and say "No" :D
Quote from: Newt;1093963Yes. The relevant bit of the OGL is Section 7, which bascially says you invalidate the license if you use someone one else's IP and that the OGL doesn't give you license to use someone elses IP unless you have the writen consent of the IP's owner.
What people tend to do is contact me and say "Err can I use OpenQuest to be the base of my Simarillion RPG?" and I say "Heck no! Do you have Tolkien Enterprise's written permission" (that's a true example, once the author pulled out all the Tolkien references and worked on it abit more to make it more its own thing it became Age of Shadows :) )
I've lost count of the number of times people have said I should do OpenQuest Cthulhu and I simply turn round and say "No" :D
But aren't the writings of Lovecraft on the public domain?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093965But aren't the writings of Lovecraft on the public domain?
Probably, but Chaosium is claiming that some of his works are still copyrighted and they hold the rights. See this page,
https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Copyright_status_of_works_by_H._P._Lovecraft
According to EU and minimum Berne convention rules, all of his stories are public domain. According to U.S. rules, all stories published before 1924 are definitely public domain (maximum of publication date + 95 years), and stories published after 1924 might be public domain depending on the licensing. If the copyright was held by him personally, then they are public domain. If they were "works for hire", then they would have had to have been properly renewed (which it isn't clear that they were) but they could still be under U.S. copyright.
Quote from: jhkim;1093984Probably, but Chaosium is claiming that some of his works are still copyrighted and they hold the rights. See this page,
https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Copyright_status_of_works_by_H._P._Lovecraft
According to EU and minimum Berne convention rules, all of his stories are public domain. According to U.S. rules, all stories published before 1924 are definitely public domain (maximum of publication date + 95 years), and stories published after 1924 might be public domain depending on the licensing. If the copyright was held by him personally, then they are public domain. If they were "works for hire", then they would have had to have been properly renewed (which it isn't clear that they were) but they could still be under U.S. copyright.
I hate Disney.
That being said who's up for the challenge of creating a public domain lovecraftian'ish pantheon?
I would gladly help.
Quote from: jhkim;1093984Probably, but Chaosium is claiming that some of his works are still copyrighted and they hold the rights. See this page,
https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Copyright_status_of_works_by_H._P._Lovecraft
Something interesting to note here:
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4805:az8rwi.4.18
You'll see a word mark on Call of Cthulhu, but not the name of the story The Call of Cthulhu.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1093956Not only that, currently there are several d100 based games using the same stuff, yet none is being made to stop. This might have a legal meaning or not (not an expert myself), but all of that is useless if you don't have the money needed to stand a lawsuit even if you had 100% chance of wining. I feel we don't have enough info on this, and (at least me) lack the knowledge to make a judgment on if it's just a dick move or not.
Yes, it is really problematic, and likely Chaosium doesn't have a clear sense about what they have. But it is cheap and free to say you have total rights to X, so long as someone doesn't call you on it and take you to court.
I suspect also that many of the generational changes in 7th edition were put there because there are so many d100 based games (that can fill that niche, like Raiders of Rleyh), just like you said.
Quote from: Lynn;1094004Something interesting to note here:
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4805:az8rwi.4.18
You'll see a word mark on Call of Cthulhu, but not the name of the story The Call of Cthulhu.
Session expired, where did you search and what did you search?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094010Session expired, where did you search and what did you search?
Just go to http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/ and do a basic search on Cthulhu. It will pull up a list with Cthulhu in it, including one dead item and one live item for Call of Cthulhu.
Quote from: Lynn;1094016Just go to http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/ and do a basic search on Cthulhu. It will pull up a list with Cthulhu in it, including one dead item and one live item for Call of Cthulhu.
Thanks!
Quote from: Lynn;1094016Just go to http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/ and do a basic search on Cthulhu. It will pull up a list with Cthulhu in it, including one dead item and one live item for Call of Cthulhu.
Quote from: Lynn;1094004You'll see a word mark on Call of Cthulhu, but not the name of the story The Call of Cthulhu.
Note that this is about trademark, not copyright. Trademarks can last forever, but they're only about the title and advertising of a work -- not the inner content. A trademark has no relation to the copyright status of a story.
Trademarks also don't depend much on exact wording. You can't use look-alike trademarks like opening a new restaurant called "The McDonald's Cafe", or releasing an RPG called "The Call of Cthulhu Adventure Game".
Quote from: jhkim;1094023Trademarks also don't depend much on exact wording. You can't use look-alike trademarks like opening a new restaurant called "The McDonald's Cafe", or releasing an RPG called "The Call of Cthulhu Adventure Game".
I would be surprised if someone actually copied text from any edition of Call of Cthulhu. Have you heard of someone doing that?
The trademark situation is interesting though, since they effectively copied the name of a story that likely is in the public domain now.
I can't imagine anyone would have the stones to market an RPG called "The Call of Cthulhu Adventure Game" but it would be fun to see someone try to launch a game on Kickstarter with it.
But then, look at those other trademarks on RPGs that include Cthulhu in the title.
Quote from: jhkim;1094023Trademarks also don't depend much on exact wording. You can't use look-alike trademarks like opening a new restaurant called "The McDonald's Cafe", or releasing an RPG called "The Call of Cthulhu Adventure Game".
Which is why my
The Communiqué of Cthulhu RPG that I'm releasing is safe.
Quote from: kythri;1094081Which is why my The Communiqué of Cthulhu RPG that I'm releasing is safe.
I think someone should make a humorous game called Butt Call of Cthulhu, all about unintentional summonings and cracked screen rage :p
Why not use G.O.R.E. (http://https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/28521/GORE?it=1) from Goblinoid Games as basis for Open Cthulhu? I thought that was the early OGL take on BRP/CoC?
Just doublecheck IP on specific creatures and entities... and name it 'Tales of Nyarlathotep' or 'Mysteries of Yog Sothoth'... Cthulhu is small-change in the overall Mythos anyway.
Quote from: Simlasa;1094153Why not use G.O.R.E. (http://https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/28521/GORE?it=1) from Goblinoid Games as basis for Open Cthulhu? I thought that was the early OGL take on BRP/CoC?
Just doublecheck IP on specific creatures and entities... and name it 'Tales of Nyarlathotep' or 'Mysteries of Yog Sothoth'... Cthulhu is small-change in the overall Mythos anyway.
Not sure but I think their license also references to Mongoose's, and they are saying Mongoose had no right to put it on the OGL to start with.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094155Not sure but I think their license also references to Mongoose's, and they are saying Mongoose had no right to put it on the OGL to start with.
Oh, yep, it does reference the Mongoose SRD... I had thought it was older than that. Does it matter that this stuff has been around for years, unchallenged?
It seems like a pickle for Chaosium, to start trying to shut these down selectively and avoid knocking over all the dominoes... bad PR juju... and I myself would like to see an Open Cthulhu based on pre-7e CoC.
The FUDGE (Freeform Universal Donated Game Engine) rpg,
FUDGE RPG OGL (http://www.fudgerpg.com/about/about-fudge/fudge-ogl-requirements.html)
and of course the newer incarnation FATE (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment)
Fate Roleplaying Game SRD (https://fate-srd.com/)
Quote from: Simlasa;1094158Oh, yep, it does reference the Mongoose SRD... I had thought it was older than that. Does it matter that this stuff has been around for years, unchallenged?
I'm not sure if it makes a difference in the legal sense and you'd need very deep pockets to fight it, which is what they are betting on IMHO.
QuoteIt seems like a pickle for Chaosium, to start trying to shut these down selectively and avoid knocking over all the dominoes... bad PR juju... and I myself would like to see an Open Cthulhu based on pre-7e CoC.
I remember a band that did something kinda similar, it didn't end we ll for them, they are now the most pirated band. I'm not advocating nor condoning piracy, just agreeing that yes, this is VERY bad PR JuJu.
Quote from: Simlasa;1094158Oh, yep, it does reference the Mongoose SRD... I had thought it was older than that. Does it matter that this stuff has been around for years, unchallenged?
Only for recovering damages. Distribution and sales can always be shut down for the life of copyright.
Plus as an added wrinkle, the copyright has to be registered in order to sue for damage. And has to be over $5,000 in order to be heard in federal court. The there is no such thing as copyright small claims under federal law. The closest thing are DMCA notices to remove stuff off of the web.
I posted some thoughts on the Chaosium issue.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2019/07/a-tale-of-two-ogls.html
In short, the situation with Traveller and Runequest was similar until 2016. Then circumstances led to Cepheus being released and Traveller 3PP is experiencing a renaissance similar to the OSR.
The Runequest hobbys had some 3PPs but they were fewer and scattered. If Chaosium tries to push back on the OGL open content, they will come off like bullies.
Quote from: estar;1094229I posted some thoughts on the Chaosium issue.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2019/07/a-tale-of-two-ogls.html
In short, the situation with Traveller and Runequest was similar until 2016. Then circumstances led to Cepheus being released and Traveller 3PP is experiencing a renaissance similar to the OSR.
The Runequest hobbys had some 3PPs but they were fewer and scattered. If Chaosium tries to push back on the OGL open content, they will come off like bullies.
And the Legend PDF (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/97239/Legend) is just $1 right now!
Bought it, read the license, it makes zero reference to RQ, or anything Chaosium. Yet it's a percentile based system.
So we have the system, we need the lore, I still think the best bet would be to make it from the ground up.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094233So we have the system, we need the lore, I still think the best bet would be to make it from the ground up.
I would recommend going that route especially if meant to be done on your hobby time.
Quote from: estar;1094238I would recommend going that route especially if meant to be done on your hobby time.
I'm willing to help create a Lovecraftianish lore aimed to be Public Domain or at the minimum OGL. Not much time to do it all on my own and it's a huge undertaking.
Quote from: estar;1094229I posted some thoughts on the Chaosium issue.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2019/07/a-tale-of-two-ogls.html
In short, the situation with Traveller and Runequest was similar until 2016. Then circumstances led to Cepheus being released and Traveller 3PP is experiencing a renaissance similar to the OSR.
The Runequest hobbys had some 3PPs but they were fewer and scattered. If Chaosium tries to push back on the OGL open content, they will come off like bullies.
A slight inaccuracy with your blog.
Design Mechanism never licensed both the RuneQuest and Glorantha trademarks. We licensed RuneQuest only. We were granted a
limited license for the production of the 'Adventures in Glorantha' supplement that was a precursor to more work on Glorantha, but Glorantha as a property was always a separate license we never held.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094243I'm willing to help create a Lovecraftianish lore aimed to be Public Domain or at the minimum OGL. Not much time to do it all on my own and it's a huge undertaking.
There's already three dozen of Lovecraft's stories definitely in the public domain (those published 1924 and earlier) -- even under crazy-ass U.S. copyright law. All of it is public domain for most countries.
Plus there are many other great horror writers in the public domain. I don't feel that imitation lore is all that useful compared to promoting these.
Quote from: Loz;1094266A slight inaccuracy with your blog.
Design Mechanism never licensed both the RuneQuest and Glorantha trademarks. We licensed RuneQuest only. We were granted a limited license for the production of the 'Adventures in Glorantha' supplement that was a precursor to more work on Glorantha, but Glorantha as a property was always a separate license we never held.
OK I will correct that. Thanks for the clarification.
There are some games that deal with Lovecraft works that aren't part of Chaosium. The character of Cthulhu, is one of them.
There are publishers who've done their own take on Cthulhu and some of the Lovecraft Mythos. They include the following.
* CthulhuTech
* Fate of Cthulhu
* Delta Green (once licensed, but now on its own with some changes)
* Trail of Cthulhu.
* Paizo has several creatures in Pathfinder, including stats for Cthulhu
* Sandy Petersen has released his own take on the Mythos for Pathfinder and 5e.
The key thing you need to do is the following.
* Do research on what stories are public domain, and exactly what's in them. You are free to use that as a base.
* Similarly, do research on what isn't--what stories are still under copyright, etc. For example, Dark Young as a concept was created by Petersen for CoC, so you should avoid copying that. (Although he used it himself in a non Chaosium game). I'd especially avoid copying any concept (being, spell, interpretation) that originated in the Chaosium supplements.
Quote from: JRT;1094280There are some games that deal with Lovecraft works that aren't part of Chaosium. The character of Cthulhu, is one of them.
There are publishers who've done their own take on Cthulhu and some of the Lovecraft Mythos. They include the following.
* CthulhuTech
* Fate of Cthulhu
* Delta Green (once licensed, but now on its own with some changes)
* Trail of Cthulhu.
* Paizo has several creatures in Pathfinder, including stats for Cthulhu
* Sandy Petersen has released his own take on the Mythos for Pathfinder and 5e.
The key thing you need to do is the following.
* Do research on what stories are public domain, and exactly what's in them. You are free to use that as a base.
* Similarly, do research on what isn't--what stories are still under copyright, etc. For example, Dark Young as a concept was created by Petersen for CoC, so you should avoid copying that. (Although he used it himself in a non Chaosium game). I'd especially avoid copying any concept (being, spell, interpretation) that originated in the Chaosium supplements.
I have my plate already full with the game I'm writing and the ones in the backburner for which I'm just taking notes when the inspiration strikes. Besides It not really being my cup of tea as a game, which is why I say I'm willing to help in the writing of a mythos but not to do it myself.
Quote from: JRT;1094280For example, Dark Young as a concept was created by Petersen for CoC, so you should avoid copying that. (Although he used it himself in a non Chaosium game).
I'm pretty sure the 'Dark Young' idea comes from Robert Bloch's 'Notebook Found In A Deserted House'... similar in description (many hoofed, log/tree like, associated with Shub Niggurath and druids).. though in that story the creature is referred to as a Shoggoth.
If someone were to start working on an OGL D100 Cthulhu it would make sense to go back to the well for inspiration anyway. Develop their own interpretation and push elements that haven't been so thoroughly covered. Like, I don't think CoC has ever done much with the creepy lost civilization in The Mound.
I don't understand what the issue with Chaosium is. Are they trying to maintain a monopoly on BRP Cthulhu mythos? I'm pretty sure they're already protected by trademark and copyright law, at least for those materials they made themselves since they have a paper trail for those copyrights.
Chaosium definitely comes across like bullies here, but the fans are making the mistake of trying to create a clone of CoC in the first place. The differences between editions aren't extreme enough to justify making an OpenCthulhu unless the intent is to serve as free advertising for Chaosium without infringing on their trademarks and copyrights.
The entire point of GORE was to allow 3pp for Call of Cthulhu, not direct competition.
A minor victory of sorts. We will see if it makes to the Chaosium website.
https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/?do=findComment&comment=145867
Q: What about Mongoose's Legend?
A: Legend is its own thing and not under license from Chaosium or Moon Design Publications. Mongoose was perfectly entitled to take their work, remove from it those elements that were derived from RuneQuest or Glorantha and give it its own name, and then do with it as they see fit. Legend is not RuneQuest or BRP or Call of Cthulhu, and nor does it purport to be.
If Mongoose wants to do a OGL of their original work, that is not Chaosium's issue or concern.
Also looking over the various SRD that Mongoose released there is probably an issue with the first one as it is labeled as the Runquest System Document. While it doesn't have any Glorantha IP the text is peppered with the use of the trademarked name Runequest.
http://b5quest.pbworks.com/f/MRQ-SRD.pdf
The second version however is labeled as the D100 II System Document and there is Legends as well.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1094326The entire point of GORE was to allow 3pp for Call of Cthulhu, not direct competition.
Which raises the question ... now that a lot of companies have opened up licensing and community content programs, have the concepts of retroclones and the OGL lost some of their
raison d'etre?
Probably, but only because it succeeded, I would say.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1094334Which raises the question ... now that a lot of companies have opened up licensing and community content programs, have the concepts of retroclones and the OGL lost some of their raison d'etre?
Only if you think licensing and community content programs can't be revoked. The OGL is forever, next year those same companies could say fuck the licensing and community content programs and close that door for future developers.
Or if you think that the only utility the OGL has is for retroclones or TPC for a game.
Besides being an advocate of Free & Libre everywhere I think the OGL is a better solution for TPC since it can't be revoked, WotC can't judge me not woke enough to publish any material I deem worthy of publishing. A license can be revoked, community content can be made to be subject to approval by the politburo.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1094326Chaosium definitely comes across like bullies here, but the fans are making the mistake of trying to create a clone of CoC in the first place. The differences between editions aren't extreme enough to justify making an OpenCthulhu unless the intent is to serve as free advertising for Chaosium without infringing on their trademarks and copyrights.
The entire point of GORE was to allow 3pp for Call of Cthulhu, not direct competition.
I don't think it was a mistake to to create a clone of CoC, just how they went about it. Nor do I think there was any real intent to compete with Chaosium CoC. I think it's like GeekyBugle says, it's people who like the game but want to create stuff without the concern of corporate whimsy hanging over them. Lamentations of the Flame Princess is no threat to 5e D&D, but I'd never see that sort of content if were just left up to WOTC.
I'd hoped we could have seen it through GORE, but that seems iffy now.
Quote from: Simlasa;1094306If someone were to start working on an OGL D100 Cthulhu it would make sense to go back to the well for inspiration anyway. Develop their own interpretation and push elements that haven't been so thoroughly covered. Like, I don't think CoC has ever done much with the creepy lost civilization in The Mound.
I have been working on a system that I think is a better fit for HPL than D100. I agree. RQ/Basic Role Playing has nothing in it that makes it a great fit for the genre but a few minor adaptations and that it is strongly skill based. You can do something just as good in adapting many systems.
Quote from: estar;1094327A minor victory of sorts. We will see if it makes to the Chaosium website.
https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9809-just-a-reminder-there-is-no-ogl-for-brp-rq-or-coc/?do=findComment&comment=145867
Q: What about Mongoose's Legend?
A: Legend is its own thing and not under license from Chaosium or Moon Design Publications. Mongoose was perfectly entitled to take their work, remove from it those elements that were derived from RuneQuest or Glorantha and give it its own name, and then do with it as they see fit. Legend is not RuneQuest or BRP or Call of Cthulhu, and nor does it purport to be.
If Mongoose wants to do a OGL of their original work, that is not Chaosium's issue or concern.
The blog entry you made was quite informative (I went ahead and shared it on Twitter) and maybe that had some impact. I notice they also closed the thread too with this.
Quote from: Lynn;1094355You can do something just as good in adapting many systems.
Probably so, but I like D100 and it's what I prefer over learning some new system. I don't want to change the basic pre-7e mechanics, just open up the content to other interpretations of the original sources... see things explored that nu-Chaosium might not see as a good fit for the action-adventure game CoC has moved towards.
Quote from: Simlasa;1094354I don't think it was a mistake to to create a clone of CoC, just how they went about it. Nor do I think there was any real intent to compete with Chaosium CoC. I think it's like GeekyBugle says, it's people who like the game but want to create stuff without the concern of corporate whimsy hanging over them. Lamentations of the Flame Princess is no threat to 5e D&D, but I'd never see that sort of content if were just left up to WOTC.
I'd hoped we could have seen it through GORE, but that seems iffy now.
Legend is good tho, it has no reference to RQ anywhere. So the only concern is really with what parts of the Lovecraftian Mythos can you legally use. Or you make a whole new mythos in a Lovecraftian-ish flavor.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1094334Which raises the question ... now that a lot of companies have opened up licensing and community content programs, have the concepts of retroclones and the OGL lost some of their raison d'etre?
A lot of companies had licensing programs prior to the OGL. The problem is that licensing could easily be revoked, which is why the OGL made such a big difference compared to licensing. Creators are much happier working on something that can continue to exist in some form, rather than being at the whim of the license creator.
Quote from: Simlasa;1094357Probably so, but I like D100 and it's what I prefer over learning some new system. I don't want to change the basic pre-7e mechanics, just open up the content to other interpretations of the original sources... see things explored that nu-Chaosium might not see as a good fit for the action-adventure game CoC has moved towards.
What is wrong with the 7e mechanics?
Quote from: Simlasa;1094357Probably so, but I like D100 and it's what I prefer over learning some new system. I don't want to change the basic pre-7e mechanics, just open up the content to other interpretations of the original sources... see things explored that nu-Chaosium might not see as a good fit for the action-adventure game CoC has moved towards.
You can always play an older version. I came to the realization some time ago that it is better to view each 'version' of a game as a standalone game. Unlike most software, new cameras, cars and the like in a series, a new version in an RPG isnt necessarily benefiting from improvements. CoC 5 or 6 are both fine systems.
I have gotten CoC 7 and, while there are a number of differences that look really different at first, it really isn't that much different. Maybe the fiddly chase rules...
Quote from: Lynn;1094390You can always play an older version. I came to the realization some time ago that it is better to view each 'version' of a game as a standalone game.
Yeah, I generally agree... but no new material will be published for the previous versions. And I did sense, in the earlier glimpses of 7e, an intent to move the feel of the game much further than the final result... and some of this is still present in the Keeper advice. I'm not saying any of is 'bad' just not what I want in the game. If I'm going to have to convert future content either way, then the stuff being put out for Trail of Cthulhu and Delta Green holds more interest.
Also, those looking for Open Content for a near-COC system can check out the new Delta Green (it's quite snazzy). It is OGC based on Mongoose Legend.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1094348Only if you think licensing and community content programs can't be revoked. The OGL is forever, next year those same companies could say fuck the licensing and community content programs and close that door for future developers.
Or if you think that the only utility the OGL has is for retroclones or TPC for a game.
Quote from: jhkim;1094359A lot of companies had licensing programs prior to the OGL. The problem is that licensing could easily be revoked, which is why the OGL made such a big difference compared to licensing. Creators are much happier working on something that can continue to exist in some form, rather than being at the whim of the license creator.
Compelling points. The community content programs are probably better for those who are fine playing in someone else's sandbox, while open content is probably better suited to providing a lingua franca for people who are more concerned with independence.
Yeah, other than D&D's, the other most successful OGL is the variant for BRP. Raiders of R'lyeh is another game that uses it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1095275Yeah, other than D&D's, the other most successful OGL is the variant for BRP. Raiders of R'lyeh is another game that uses it.
Raiders of R'lyeh hangs its hat on the Legend OGL, but its structure and most of its rules are lifted wholesale from
Mythras, with just the right amount of rewording to get around copyright infringement. Nothing I can do about it of course, and it's 'above board' as things go, but disingenuous to claim that it bases itself on Legend when it's really Mythras (and the Mythras Firearms rules) that it's using. Had they come to use and said 'hey guys, here's what we're doing...', we would have listened and most likely asked for appropriate thanks and recognition. But we didn't get that common courtesy.
Pundit, I see you consulted on R'lyeh. I don't expect you to have known this is what the game's producers were doing, but if you are asked to consult on Legend OGL products in the future, do drop me a line and I can let you know if this is in danger of happening again. We got ripped off by the Sabre RPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/185867/The-Sabre-RPG-Fantasy-Basic-Edition), which did a very similar thing to Raiders of R'lyeh, but made the mistake of copying and pasting large chunks of Mythras into their manuscript without changing the text expression. We sorted that one out quite quickly and amicably, but it does mean that The Design Mechanism always checks closely to make sure it's IP and copyrights aren't being infringed.