Cross posted from RPGnet because I know there are some hardcore GURPS fans here who don't visit that board.

So, I have a passing familiarity with GURPS having purchased it (2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3rd ed revised, 4th ed) no less than 6 times...and selling it of each time. Having never been enamored with it I never played it (although I would like to at least once) and thus have no real indication of how it holds up in play.

So...without going all fanboy on me and trying to make a square peg fit seamlessly into a round hole I have a couple questions.

1)Does any edition of GURPS do generic fantasy (when I say "generic" or "traditional" fantasy I mean RPG fantasy, which roughly breaks down to D&D-esque fantasy. That is what I'm interested in and the core of the thread) right out of the box without buying any supplemental material? By that I mean, does it have details of the standard races of fantasy? Does it have a fantasy spell list/system? Does it have monsters and magic treasure?

2)Since I'm pretty sure the answer is no, what supplement(s) would you want for "generic" fantasy? I've seen and purchased a lot of GURPS fantasy stuff, but seem to recall most of it being anything but "generic". For example, I remember the Fantasy Folk book doing some things I really hated just to purposely break away from tradition (I think what they did with Goblins was the biggest perpetration). The fantasy setting was just goofy (with religion and races and stuff again, trying to break the mold just to break the mold).

3)Does 4th edition Fantasy handle this better (or should I say, "more like I want it to be") than the previous editions? If so, can you use it with older editions of the game? Is it complete for fantasy (bestiary, magic items, spells) or is it yet another book that makes you buy more books?

4)Has any fan done this online? If there isn't an official supplement that handles this (the way I'm looking for), has anyone online created a document that covers all the basics of D&D-esque fantasy for GURPS?

5)How would GURPS stand up to straightforward conversions of D&D material? For example, lets say we are running Rise of the Runelords right now...how well would that convert if we wanted to start using GURPS instead of D&D? How much work would it be for the GM (honestly). How much of a different feel would the game have using GURPS instead of D&D 3.5?

Any other comments or suggestions would be appreciated, but I'd like to leave the thread about GURPS, so if people can refrain from suggesting other game systems or saying "just play D&D" it would be appreciated.

Thanks all

Grubman,

 You really need to browse at the SJG forums...daily or weekly.

GURPS 4/e handles Fantasy just fine.

 Two or three people on there are playing versions of Forgotten Realms using the GURPS rules. Same is true of the Eberron setting.

 I ran a BANESTORM mini-campaign a year ago. Thats a general Fantasy setting.

- Ed C.

With just a casual search I find this :

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=8567&highlight=Forgotten+Realms

...and this:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=30554&highlight=Forgotten+Realms

...and this:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=26758&highlight=Dungeons+Dragons

Like Mind flayers? :
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=25079&highlight=Dungeons+Dragons

Gurps does D&Desque fantasy, but it won't really do it right out of the box. You have to have some guidelines for the rules. If you want to use Gurps, you need support for magic and fantasy tropes. Gurps has books for that.

Or, you could use D&D stuff for support. The basic books give you enough to convert what you're looking for, I think. But you have to have a firm grasp on the rules. Oh--and you will want to convert some things from D&D first, without any strictures on point values, to find the baseline for the point values you want to consider. You may want to convert average examples of first level versions of different class/race combinations to see what kind of impact things like enhanced vision and direction sense have on point values of starting packages. then do fifth level, then a couple monsters.

I'm sure someone has done this work already and posted it somewhere. I mean--in addition to the links posted above. It sounds like a lot of work when you look at it all at once.

Quickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures, it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

I'll have more in a second... sorry just wanted to get this up.

Edit: Banestorm in 4th is the setting from 3rd Fantasy. It is much more detailed and improved but It still has the differences that you dislike.

Quote from: KoltarYou really need to browse at the SJG forums...daily or weekly.

I'd have to become a GURPS fan to do that, now wouldn't I.

As for right now, I can usually get the info I need from these "generic" forums which I vastly prefere to game specific forums.

P.S.  I knew you would be here to reply to this one.

Quote from: darQuickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures, it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

I'll have more in a second... sorry just wanted to get this up.

Edit: Banestorm in 4th is the setting from 3rd Fantasy. It is much more detailed and improved but It still has the differences that you dislike.

I downloaded that one a while ago as it was suggested on RPGnet.  It looks like just the kind of thing I was looking for (provided it is balanced).

In any case, I'm considering all the possibilities (of what our group will convert to) for when 4E rolls out.  If I went with GURPS I would stick with the 3rd edition anyway, as the 4th is way too cumbersome for me to even consider.

WHAT??!!?

 Fourth Edition GURPS is easier to use than third edition was for that kind of thing.


- Ed C.

No GURPS 4th eh... OK.

Well just for those listening. You can get away with the two basic sets except for not all the templates you want are there, so you would need to toss in Fantasy.

Really though you can do what you want with just the two basic books. I do wish you liked 4th more.

And never forget the Random Monster Generator.

Sorry.... but there is the rpg.net wiki.

(hey! is there an rpgsite wiki?!?!)

Quote from: KoltarFourth Edition GURPS is easier to use than third edition was for that kind of thing.

I agree with you... but... op and all...

I just read some of that thread (OK speed read it). Some good ideas there. But seeing that your hooked on 3rd then I'd suggest, other than the already mentioned, the basic book, fantasy bestiary, and fantasy races (dropping or changing the races you don't like).

Pick the D&D setting of your choice. Just don't stick to it very closely.

GURPS 3rd is fantastic for low-powered fantasy.  It's really what the game was designed for, and it shows pretty plainly in the core book, at least to me.  

The corebook's magic system is pretty sp[arse though, it has the core rules, but few spells, so you'll want to nab Magic and/or Grimoire.

You'll probably want some critters too, and I think there's a monster book or two.

It really just depends on how much you want to build by hand, and how much you want to convert.

AstralRunners post at the other site of a quote from Sean Punch is so fucking cool.

I'd totally forgot about it. I gotta try it.

Just for completeness:

QuoteHere is a post on the subject by Dr. Punch*, GURPS line editor:

QuoteMercator already beat me to my intended linkage. Seriously, you can do dungeoneering just fine in GURPS. It's just that it's a genre of its own, and like any genre, requires you to use the GURPS tool kit to craft the tools to make the tools to build the campaign. GURPS doesn't leap out of the box ready to tackle dungeon crawls. Aside from my big, long post, bear in mind a few things:

1. Ignore sensible limits! Don't stick to human norms on attributes, for instance; be open to fighters with ST 22 and HP 28. Let wizards have Magery 11. Allow artificers to have 27 Gizmos if they have the points. Put no upper limit on Serendipity levels. Much of the fun of dungeon-crawling is unfettered "levelling up." And characters can use extreme abilities for extreme stacking and synergy (see below).

2. You can never have too many different powers! Never, ever -- but never -- just have spell-based, mana-dependent magic. At minimum, also have divine magic ("cleric spells") that rely on sanctity rather than mana, and that don't care about Magic Resistance, etc. And you'll probably want spirit-mediated sorcery, either in the sense of ritual magic or an out-and-out power; chi abilities; and probably several flavors of weird-science artificing for alchemists, dwarves, etc. Having all of this stuff in play makes stacking and synergizing (see below) far more effective. The object here is to let all the different approaches to the same fantastic effect work together; if you can only get +5 to ST from a given source, but potions, prayers, spells, and spirit possession coexist, then you can get +20!

3. Don't be afraid to "stack" and synergize. In my current campaign, I have one PC whose big damage output comes from having high ST (ST 17), Weapon Master to score him +2 per die on his 3d-1 swing damage (so +6, or just under another 2d), and a sword that's both fine (+1) and magical (+1). In addition, he often fights demons, and his sword has both a magical bonus (+3) and a divine bonus (+3) vs. demons . . . and I let his Higher Purpose as a Demon-Slayer add its +1 to damage rolls, too. Finally, he has Extra Attack, so it all happens twice per turn. Against demons, he rolls something like 3d+14 (equivalent to 7d), twice a turn. Another PC stacks up Weapon Master, Power Blow (which, with FP 22, isn't a problem), and a nice sword to score 5d+11 (equivalent to 8d) once a turn. And a third layers inhuman ST (ST 24) with a scaled-up huge sword given to him by a god to toss out 4d+8 (about 6d+1) every turn . . . with the added benefit that the god's power lets him burn HP to disrupt his foe's HP, making maximum damage unbounded provided the user wants to go kamikaze. And all of these guys sometimes benefit from Might spells and elixirs of strength to boost ST even further, and have been known to add fire, frost, etc., to their blades courtesy of the group's alchemist.

The key thing is to encourage advantage-buying over everything elese, which lets players munchkinize in-play effects like buffs, damage, and healing. You want to avoid attribute-and-skill munchkinization at character creation. So it's fine for a wizard to know five spells and have Magery 10 to go crazily past their normal limits . . . but try to avoid letting him buy 100 spells at high levels thanks to IQ 20. Warriors should have an incentive to take ST and Weapon Master and a pile of Signature Gear for a cool weapon . . . but not just tons of DX. And so on.

And here is a thread in which Dr. Punch makes several such contributions.

*Random Trivia: The "Dr." is not part of a nickname; he actually does hold a doctorate of physics. You never can tell where you'll end up, can you?

If you want to run and play the game out of just one book - like if you have to travel to GM and can't be arsed carrying them - then I would go for GURPS 3e. It has combat, spells and a fair equipment list; it lacks monsters and races, but a capable GM can come up with those themselves, or at least swipe them from someone's webpage after an hour or so with google. If you're really keen and can pick them up cheap on ebay, GURPS Low-Tech and Magic[/b] are good - but not essential.

If you're GMing at home and don't have to carry the books, then I'd go for 4e. The GM will need GURPS Characters, Campaigns, Magic, and I'd recommend GURPS Fantasy as it's an excellent resource for fantasy campaign design. Players will need a copy of GURPS Characters if they're all creating their characters separately at home - if around the table, the players need no books, but some of the downloadable free products from e23 will be good, so that they'll have skill lists and so on to choose from.

I would say also to consider your likely players. Systems are like nukes: use it or lose it! If you're not using it all, get rid of it and get something you will use. To my mind, complexity and detail in a game's mechanics are fun when most of the players are into them, and not when they're not. If you find yourself having to handwave a lot of things because the players don't know and aren't interested in the rules, then I'd go for a lighter system. But if your players really love all that detail, then 4e is good, you can get a lot out of the combats and so on. 3e is the compromise.



For my part, I love that detail as a player, and but am not much interested in it as a GM. But most players I know aren't into that stuff, and I'm lucky if they read enough of the rules to create a character, let alone buy the rules and study them closely enough that they themselves could GM. So recently I've set aside GURPS. Not a fault of the system, it's just the players I've had - same way I set aside Call of Cthulhu since I had players who cracked jokes all the time. I had to choose the system to match the players!

Edit: oh, and my Big List of Links has a few fantasy campaigns in it...

Quote from: darQuickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures, it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

I'll have more in a second... sorry just wanted to get this up.

Edit: Banestorm in 4th is the setting from 3rd Fantasy. It is much more detailed and improved but It still has the differences that you dislike.

That's pretty fuckin' sweet.  It's like everything you need that isn't in core, all in one nice neat package.  

Makes me want to pick up GURPS 3e again, or just DL GURPS lite, and run it just looking at it.