Quote from: grubmanCross posted from RPGnet because I know there are some hardcore GURPS fans here who don't visit that board.

Quote from: grubmanSo, I have a passing familiarity with GURPS having purchased it (2nd ed, 3rd ed, 3rd ed revised, 4th ed) no less than 6 times...and selling it of each time. Having never been enamored with it I never played it (although I would like to at least once) and thus have no real indication of how it holds up in play.

So...without going all fanboy on me and trying to make a square peg fit seamlessly into a round hole I have a couple questions.

Quote from: grubman1)Does any edition of GURPS do generic fantasy (when I say "generic" or "traditional" fantasy I mean RPG fantasy, which roughly breaks down to D&D-esque fantasy. That is what I'm interested in and the core of the thread) right out of the box without buying any supplemental material? By that I mean, does it have details of the standard races of fantasy? Does it have a fantasy spell list/system? Does it have monsters and magic treasure?

You have to do work to do straight D&D style fantasy with monsters. If you have sentient centric plot then yes GURPS (any edition) plus Magic (for that edition) will do just fine.

Quote from: grubman2)Since I'm pretty sure the answer is no, what supplement(s) would you want for "generic" fantasy? I've seen and purchased a lot of GURPS fantasy stuff, but seem to recall most of it being anything but "generic". For example, I remember the Fantasy Folk book doing some things I really hated just to purposely break away from tradition (I think what they did with Goblins was the biggest perpetration). The fantasy setting was just goofy (with religion and races and stuff again, trying to break the mold just to break the mold).

GURPS 4th + GURPS 4th Magic + GURPS Fantasy + Natural Encyclopedia http://www.tesarta.com/HFP/Welcome_files/NatEnc-beta.pdf

Perhaps GURPS Banestorm

Quote from: grubman3)Does 4th edition Fantasy handle this better (or should I say, "more like I want it to be") than the previous editions? If so, can you use it with older editions of the game? Is it complete for fantasy (bestiary, magic items, spells) or is it yet another book that makes you buy more books?

Converting monster a lot easier with 4th because of the way advantages and disadvantages work now.

Quote from: grubman4)Has any fan done this online? If there isn't an official supplement that handles this (the way I'm looking for), has anyone online created a document that covers all the basics of D&D-esque fantasy for GURPS?

It is in bits and pieces by various people but no GURPS Dungeon Crawl exists at the moments.

Quote from: grubman5)How would GURPS stand up to straightforward conversions of D&D material? For example, lets say we are running Rise of the Runelords right now...how well would that convert if we wanted to start using GURPS instead of D&D? How much work would it be for the GM (honestly). How much of a different feel would the game have using GURPS instead of D&D 3.5?

I have converted number D20 modules (mostly goodman games and expeditous retreat modules) for GURPS. It works within reason. The main difference are two things

1) Combat is both less deadly and more deadly. PCs can hold out for a long time but once the tipping point is reached they will go down fast. You can't be stupid using the full blown GURPS combat system. The reason for this is defense. In D&D you are wearing down hit points over time. In GURPS you are defending the moment you can't defend you will be hurt and in the second round die.

2) I recommend following all the advice on game balance in GURPS Magic (Rule of 16, etc. A GURPS mage has a harder time with killing a lot of things compared to a d20 mage but are able to protect themselves quite well and can be very deadly on a one and one basis.

Quote from: grubmanAny other comments or suggestions would be appreciated, but I'd like to leave the thread about GURPS, so if people can refrain from suggesting other game systems or saying "just play D&D" it would be appreciated.

I don't have a coherent system for D&D style GURPS but you can get a general sense of how a GURPS game world works that had its origins firmly in AD&D at this link here.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands

Rob Conley

Quote from: darQuickest and probably cheapest is Caverns and Creatures, it is 3rd but recently updated. That and GURPS 3rd lite covers your bases. I have not played it or thoroughly read it so caveat emptor.

This is a fantastic resource for using D20 stuff in a GURPS fantasy world

Quote from: grubmanThe reason I look at 3rd ed GURPS as a viable option rather than 4th is because it is all wrapped up in one nice neat package.  How can a system that used to require 1 book now require 2 or 3 books that are larger in size and NOT be a bigger burden to learn and use?

In a nutshell GURPS 4th edition is a better crafted game than 3rd. I know that is a subjective evaluation but I played a lot of different RPGS and wargames and I feel that GURPS 4th has a lot more craftmanship behind it. SJ Games has always done well crafted games and GURPS 4th shows the result of their experience.

The most telling example is how advantages and disadvantages work in 4th. They really allow you to duplicate a wide range of effects with the core rules. It will take work to make any one genre but the basics are all there. So while are you buying two books with 4th you are also getting a more flexible system that hangs together better.

Now from my point of view (and a shelf full of 3rd edition books) I put a lot work into my 3rd edition game. But I switched to 4th because for the first since I started played GURPS (in 1989) I could make monsters that work like D&D monsters. Now arguably you could this with a combination of 3rd and GURPS Companion I but 4th really hones it and makes it work.

Quote from: estarIt is in bits and pieces by various people but no GURPS Dungeon Crawl exists at the moments.

Just a real quick note...I don't consider "Dungeon Crawls" to be a definition for D&D at all.  When I say D&D-esqu, I more or less mean the type of genre that developed because of D&D (which could also be defined as Tolkienesque...with a lot more magic thrown into the mix, and a bit of Saturday morning cartoons (for my particular style)).

Quote from: grubmanI don't want to have to sit htere and guess what skills should be avaliable, or what equipment is time-appropriate.  I want to get to the fun stuff, making memerable game sessions.

That what templates are for which 4th edition has a lot of. 3rd edition has them in separate books (Wizard, Warriors, Rouges, etc)

Quote from: grubmanJust a real quick note...I don't consider "Dungeon Crawls" to be a definition for D&D at all.  When I say D&D-esqu, I more or less mean the type of genre that developed because of D&D (which could also be defined as Tolkienesque...with a lot more magic thrown into the mix, and a bit of Saturday morning cartoons (for my particular style)).

On the SJ Games Forums GURPS Dungeon Crawl is the most common title for when people describe what you want out of GURPS. Doesn't mean it limited to only dungeon crawls.

Quote from: grubmanWell that is really about the most intense "sell me" argument I've ever heard!  Someone must really love GURPS!

I bought two of my good friends GURPS Characters 4th edition when I got a good bonus last years. It helped sell them on GURPS and they are regular players now.

I've been pestering SJG to put out some streamlined entry point books for lite 4e for a long time now.

But yeah, what you'll need is the whole basic set plus Magic or Fantasy or Bane Storm.  Just one more reason I'm back to my self publishing kick.  $200 just to start running fantasy is ridiculous.

Third edition does work mostly okay some of the time when it comes to Fantasy and that's a whole lot better than it does anything else.

Have you considered Mongoose's Rune Quest?  It might be closer to what you're looking for.

Quote from: David JohansenI've been pestering SJG to put out some streamlined entry point books for lite 4e for a long time now.

But yeah, what you'll need is the whole basic set plus Magic or Fantasy or Bane Storm.  Just one more reason I'm back to my self publishing kick.  $200 just to start running fantasy is ridiculous.

Third edition does work mostly okay some of the time when it comes to Fantasy and that's a whole lot better than it does anything else.

Have you considered Mongoose's Rune Quest?  It might be closer to what you're looking for.

Ha ha!  I suggested this a year or so back on RPGnet, even outlined what I think should have been done...and the GURPs fans nailed me to the cross!  It was one of those mega flame threads, even got a cross posting on the GURPS forum from someone telling everyone how I was nuts.  Of course, there were a lot of people on my side, but the representatives from the GURPS community certainly didn't like the idea and thought GURPS Lite was the only entry tool the game needed.

Quote from: grubmanThe reason I look at 3rd ed GURPS as a viable option rather than 4th is because it is all wrapped up in one nice neat package.  How can a system that used to require 1 book now require 2 or 3 books that are larger in size and NOT be a bigger burden to learn and use?

The reason GURPS 3e has one book (well, sort of) and 4e two is that 3e didn't really do more than fairly 'realistic' low-tech fantasy and near-future post-apocalypse/fantasy with just the Basic Set, whereas 4e provides the tools for much more in the core rules.

I'm of the opinion that 4e is simply better than 3e (as you've probably gathered from the RPGnet posts I've made), but if you really are keen on One Book To Rule Them All, then 3e is better than 4e. However, if you expect to need more than that one book, you'll probably be better off going with 4e (though 3e's books are really cheap these days).

Quote from: grubman[...] the representatives from the GURPS community certainly didn't like the idea and thought GURPS Lite was the only entry tool the game needed.

They're wrong. Like many people talking about complex game systems, they write just from having read the thing, without trying it out in play. I've yet to see even a single campaign webpage describing the playing out of a game with GURPS Lite.
"Oh yeah I've done it... like, totally. It works!"
"Then tell us about it."
"...."

GURPS Lite is useless - too much complexity and detail for those few pages, too little complexity and detail for making the most of what GURPS can actually do.

I agree with Rupert here, in that I say 3e is good if you just want one or two books to use, while 4e is good if you really want to get into a lot of detail.

I don't mention the price issue because gamers regularly spend a hundred or more dollars a week on movies, dvds, cds, computer games, junk food, and so on. And if you don't, then fair enough - John Kim lists over 500 free games on his site, go snag one of them.

That aside, 3e is better to keep the number of books down, 4e is better if you enjoy the detail. I can't recommend Banestorm, I didn't think much of it. Fantasy is an excellent general resource, which I think is worth getting even if you don't play GURPS in any edition.

Quote from: grubmanHa ha!  I suggested this a year or so back on RPGnet, even outlined what I think should have been done...and the GURPs fans nailed me to the cross!  It was one of those mega flame threads, even got a cross posting on the GURPS forum from someone telling everyone how I was nuts.  Of course, there were a lot of people on my side, but the representatives from the GURPS community certainly didn't like the idea and thought GURPS Lite was the only entry tool the game needed.

Found those threads.  Some of you are there.  The first is the RPGnet thread, the second is the GURPS forum response thread. (on a humerous note, I mention 4E...back when it was still a myth):

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=278730

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=18461

Quote from: Kyle AaronThey're wrong. Like many people talking about complex game systems, they write just from having read the thing, without trying it out in play. I've yet to see even a single campaign webpage describing the playing out of a game with GURPS Lite.
"Oh yeah I've done it... like, totally. It works!"
"Then tell us about it."
"...."

GURPS Lite is useless - too much complexity and detail for those few pages, too little complexity and detail for making the most of what GURPS can actually do.

I've been running GURPS Lite for months now because my players are too lazy to use the full books to do their characters properly.  I look at the main books and try to apply them but in practice I have to end up fudging most of it.

I wouldn't say it works "totally."  It's just an action game, nothing like what I had envisioned, but as long as my players are willing, I'll run it.

I've always found GURPS could do a great job of low-level fantasy. It really can't do high fantasy though.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle AaronThey're wrong. Like many people talking about complex game systems, they write just from having read the thing, without trying it out in play. I've yet to see even a single campaign webpage describing the playing out of a game with GURPS Lite.
"Oh yeah I've done it... like, totally. It works!"
"Then tell us about it."
"...."

GURPS Lite is useless - too much complexity and detail for those few pages, too little complexity and detail for making the most of what GURPS can actually do.

The only games of GURPS I've ever run have been with GURPS (3e) Lite.  And I did quite a few of those.

RPGPundit