The art seems fine to me - well done and resembling perfectly good standard dungeon fantasy scenes. Of course, I'm not really in the market for this game, so maybe that makes me less picky or something.

Quote from: jux;917894Quite right. Mine rocks!
But by the terrible artwork I actually meant the font, colour of the big text. It just screams - don't take me seriously! The picture itself is still too cartoony, but not that bad.

I like the picture, myself, but I agree with you about the title font.  It's the fantasy equivalent of Comic Sans.

There's been quite a bit of change in the stretch goals today, with more reduced shipping possible and another PDF on offer.

Quote from: Simlasa;917343For myself, I see it as a political vote... a vote for GURPS, a vote for 'traditional' games, a vote for boxed sets, and a vote for SJG doing the thing that people have been asking for for so long... and a vote for doing it again, and again with other genres/settings.

Agreed on all counts.  Also, GURPS is a great toolkit, but 4th is an intimidating monster to build a game out of if you're not an old pro at it.  It needs to go back to basics and provide a simplified gateway so that people can see it in actual application rather than in infinite possibility.  If they don't do this, then I think GURPS will eventually get old and die along with its aging, frothing, and numerically dwindling supporters.  I want GURPS to live, so I'm in.

Also, put me in the camp of people that think that an implied setting is enough.  Dungeon crawling is already a very specific genre-ish-thing. Keeping the possibilities of what lies beyond the dungeon is in keeping with the generic universal nature of the engine.

SJG have added some more of the existing PDFs in to the 'everything' bundle, so if you are a new entrant this is starting to look quite a good deal.

Well, Kromm answered the question I had regarding supported point totals. It seems like the trend these days is to make the default starting characters full fledged badasses right from the get go.

250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

Yep. Even Call of Cthulhu has made moves towards action heroes. When people say they want their PCs to be 'competent' it seems to imply 'cannot fail, must get gold star.'
Maybe the new edition of Kult will have PC that are straight up awakened godlings... no more of that oppressive nonsense about being trapped in the cage having archons fuck with you?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138Well, Kromm answered the question I had regarding supported point totals. It seems like the trend these days is to make the default starting characters full fledged badasses right from the get go.

250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

Yeah, I prefer lower point levels too. When I converted our long-standing TFT campaigns to GURPS, the most experienced characters came to a little over 200 points.

I think it's important to explain the range of available power settings. I've seen 25-point PCs be some of the most fun both for myself and for others to play. It tends to feel dull and silly to me when characters start being good at many things and super good at other things.

Higher power levels can be fun too, but is quite different. What I start to really not like is when there's just an inflation problem, as in GURPS Myth, where basic types like Brigand, Warrior and Ghol are shown at 150 points. I think the system works much better when at least most typical people are low point total. My mooks are more like 20-40 points, as in Orcslayer. Good competent people tend to be more like 80 points.

Of course in GURPS, the point total isn't that much of a measure of power in any particular area. It depends on what the points are in, and a more detailed character can end up with a high point total just because you listed the skills detailing their social skills, while you didn't bother to list that for the street thug who will beat the higher-point character into the ground because he has 8 points in Brawling.

Also, I think the rate of increase is even more important than the starting point, and I like that to be low, too, because otherwise, especially if the GM hands out points for good roleplaying or whatever, a campaign can lead to very high-point characters without really much in-gameworld reason why they are becoming super-heroes. I enjoy high-powered characters when/if they have a background that explains why they're so powerful, that's not "because they're the PCs" or "because players enjoy continuous significant character improvement".

Jesus these guys are stupid.  They have an entire library of GURPS and Dungeon Fantasy PDFs sitting there in Warehouse 23.  Want to see this KS go to crazy levels - add as stretch goals the old Dungeon Fantasy PDFs.  

Yeah, then you can't sell them to people who bought the KS.  Here's the thing genius, all the people who aren't going to buy the KS because the Stretch Goals suck...aren't going to buy the KS anyway, so they have no interest in the old Dungeon Fantasy.  

Newsflash: I ain't spending $50 on the box set, $20 on a screen, $35 for pdfs which should have been included anyway...and then another $238 dollars on the old Dungeon Fantasy pdfs as add-ons.  You're out of your goddamn mind.

You want to give GURPS a boost and "ride the nostalgia KS wave"(which is, I'm sure, what started all this in the first place) then do it right.

That will get you more buzz then paying Sean Patrick Fannon to put a blurb on Enworld.

Quote from: CRKrueger;918180Newsflash: I ain't spending $50 on the box set, $20 on a screen, $35 for pdfs which should have been included anyway...and then another $238 dollars on the old Dungeon Fantasy pdfs as add-ons.  You're out of your goddamn mind.

The $250 pledge level covers everything.

Note you do have a point but they also have it partially covered in their pledge levels. I personally am not going in at that because I have everything already because I bought it over the years. If you don't have any of it now. Then the $250 will get you everything up there which I believe is currently well over a $100 saving from buying it all separately.

They used be on top of everything and even leading the pack with electronic publishing and web policies then around the mid 2000s they just stopped evolving. Probably once again because of Munchkin + board games taking over their business. Still think Warehouse23 sucks compared to the old e23 web site.

Yeah, they have the $250 all in, but that's all older stuff.  If they'd simply made the older pdfs a stretch goal, like 7th Sea, or like Modiphius Conan, they would have funded already and be looking for new stuff to add.  

Trying to squeeze every last possible penny out of the old stuff as part of the new launch is just outdated thinking.  It points to this being exactly a "let's make money off the KS nostalgia games" thing rather then trying to move GURPS Fantasy forward into the space occupied by OSR/RQx and all the "New-Old games".  It's reactive instead of proactive.

But then again, SJG has no actual faith in their own RPG products, so it's not a surprise.

I get really tired of the company line that the stuff they put out is proper support.  Oh I've been called on it a time or two.  But the odds and ends and options they keep putting out without filling the significant and crippling gaps in system support just don't cut it from where I sit.

"You can use this article in Pyramid to build tracked vehicles using Space Ships!"  How could I ever miss that and how it would totally fix the gaping hole of vehicle support for GURPS.  I don't care if it's just a big book of standard vehicles or the full design system at this point.  A proper bestiary is harder to do I suppose but they've done it before.  A nice one stop book of general racial templates, animals, and monsters.

Admittedly, World of Warcraft and D&D fourth edition did a real number on the rpg business but that didn't stop any number of companies from producing Warcraft board games and rpgs at the time.

That said, I can sympathize with them being tired of fans like me giving them the gears.  But it's the internet and if you aren't a bit over the top and controversial nobody will ever read what you wrote.  Everyone just sitting around nodding their heads in agreement isn't at all interesting to read.

Quote from: David Johansen;918219I get really tired of the company line that the stuff they put out is proper support.  Oh I've been called on it a time or two.  But the odds and ends and options they keep putting out without filling the significant and crippling gaps in system support just don't cut it from where I sit.

"You can use this article in Pyramid to build tracked vehicles using Space Ships!"  How could I ever miss that and how it would totally fix the gaping hole of vehicle support for GURPS.  I don't care if it's just a big book of standard vehicles or the full design system at this point.  A proper bestiary is harder to do I suppose but they've done it before.  A nice one stop book of general racial templates, animals, and monsters.

Admittedly, World of Warcraft and D&D fourth edition did a real number on the rpg business but that didn't stop any number of companies from producing Warcraft board games and rpgs at the time.

That said, I can sympathize with them being tired of fans like me giving them the gears.  But it's the internet and if you aren't a bit over the top and controversial nobody will ever read what you wrote.  Everyone just sitting around nodding their heads in agreement isn't at all interesting to read.

I gave up on getting supporting products soon after they launched 4E then promptly abandoned it for and endless parade of munchkin supplements. If that is what was selling and paying the bills so be it. It was that combined with a lack of 3rd party support also. No we are not going to make the products you want and you can't publish them either. Its their football so they can keep it locked up in the house if they want to.

Imagine how much more popular the system would be if steady supplements & scenarios could have been published for the past 12 years or so. All on someone's else's dime without any risk.

Quote from: David Johansen;918219Admittedly, World of Warcraft and D&D fourth edition did a real number on the rpg business but that didn't stop any number of companies from producing Warcraft board games and rpgs at the time.

While true for the industry, it is the rise of Munchkin sales relative GURPS sales that did GURPS in for SJ Games. You can see this in their stakeholder reports. GURPS 4e was the #4 RPG at one point. But it reached that point just as Munchkin exploded onto the scene.

After the Secret Service raid in the 1990s and it nearly killing his company Steve Jackson has been very conservative with his business practices including hiring people. So when Munchkin proved wildly popular he didn't hire many more people rather shifted the attention of the people he got onto Munchkin. Which meant GURPS got the short end of the time and resource stick.

Which also means that since the early 2000s they didn't put much brainpower into doing new things with RPGs. By 2008 it became obvious to many that things has ossified in the RPG department. And as for the GURPS IP, Steve Jackson has a line that he doesn't appear to cross. Their fan policy was generous for circa 2000 but probably because of his experience with Metagaming, Steve Jackson probably not willing to share control of GURPS with anybody except for a traditional license agreement. Which won't happen because they are too busy with Munchkin.

And understand they are not fools for focusing on Munchkin. It is truly a once in a lifetime product for a company should be well supported.

The thing is that I can't stand Munchkin.  I played it once, ugh.  That's really all I can say for it.

Anyhow, I don't blame them for cashing in.

I do begrudge their unwillingness to allow third party support for GURPS.

I also begrudge their attitude and policies on freelancing.  I'm not saying they're wrong, I wouldn't want to work with me either.

No, I have no interest in producing fan material and tying all my work to a licence that will never allow me to make a dime on it.

No, I'd probably never make a dime on it.

It's the principle of the thing.