TheRPGSite

Announced (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3731-GURPS-Turns-30-Starts-Kicking-Down-Doors-to-Celebrate-With-Dungeon-Fantasy-RPG) via EN World, launching tomorrow it appears.

Somewhere between an "about time" and a "head desk" we'll see what's in the box.

I'd also like to suggest that they could have done superheroes or space or something.  This would have been great back when fourth edition D&D was floundering.  Now?  Well, it might fly but 5th edition D&D is going strong.

I'll pledge this one regardless.

I'll back it, too, even though I already have all of DF in electronic format. Having something to give to prospective players and say "let's playing this" is powerful.

I don't even like GURPS and this is tempting.

Especially after seeing what SJG did with Ogre Designer's Edition.

if it were an all in one book, rather then a boxed set I'd be in.

Quote from: remial;916463if it were an all in one book, rather then a boxed set I'd be in.

The comment was made that because it in five books that it may work out it better for actual play as the different parts can distributed to those who need it at the time.

Just what the books are and what format they're in is the real question.

I'm guessing GURPS Lite is in there.  I think a pure rule book that's fully integrated would be better but there's no reason they can't do both.  A booklet of pregenerated character sheets would help with the pick up and play value so I expect to see one.  A booklet of monster stat cards would also be nice.  I don't think Dungeon Fantasy has ever done a setting so we might see that.  One thing I'd hope to see is poster sized battle maps instead of cardboard tiles.  Really, just plain old, functional hex maps.  Maybe the All In A Night's Work solitaire adventure?

Interesting.

This is very tempting. I've been having a bit of resurgence of interest in GURPS lately... so backing this seems likely.

A bit of marketing and cheerleading:

Dungeon Fantasy Boxed Set announced! (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2016/08/dungeon-fantasy-boxed-set-announced.html)

And a bit more extra info, courtesy of a text interview with Phil Reed

Dungeon Fantasy Boxed Set - Q&A with Phil Reed (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2016/08/dungeon-fantasy-boxed-set-q-with-phil.html)

Plus, of course: Thursday is GURPSDay!

GURPS Day Summary Aug 26 - Sept 1, 2016
 (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2016/09/thursday-is-gurpsday.html)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps)

It's up.

I've backed - having an entry-level style product will be really useful even though I have a metric tonne of othe GURPS material already.

There is the option to just get the five books as PDFs, now, if that makes a better option for people. See update 2 for details.

I'm seeing a lot of "pledging $1 to comment, want better European shipping) I wonder how much the pledges would jump if they put something in for that.

It's an interesting kickstarter.

Earlier this year (I think it was this year, man I'm getting old) I started a thread entitled "Raise A Million Dollars For GURPS" on the SJG forums.  My premise was that we could bribe SJG to support GURPS with print projects.  Nothing came of it of course.  I'm not claiming any credit here.

On the other hand a kickstarter set up like this feels a lot like that.  It's a high end project with a very high funding goal.  There's no, funded at $1000 for a 64 page  GURPS lite Fantasy booklet.  The stretch goals are all shipping discounts.  Really, it's a bit like extortion, "pledge our kickstarter or the game you love will be lost forever mwahahahahahahah!"

I'm not complaining, it's basically what we've been asking for for over a decade and something we've needed since 4th edition came out.  Something that makes GURPS accessible to new players.  I've always believed that GURPS'  4e's high priced format made it a regressive product that would eventually die out, which it did.  Sure, pdfs made it possible to carry on with what amounts to high end fanzine support.  Oh well, back in the first edition days I voted for $12 saddle stitched supplements under 100 pages.  What can I say, I'm cheap.

I suspect that success here and in the future expansions including the hinted Space Opera will lead to a 4.5 or even 5th edition.

Quote from: David Johansen;916759Earlier this year (I think it was this year, man I'm getting old) I started a thread entitled "Raise A Million Dollars For GURPS" on the SJG forums.  My premise was that we could bribe SJG to support GURPS with print projects.  Nothing came of it of course.  I'm not claiming any credit here.

Hey I been advocating this project for years too.

Since 2008 (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=628313&postcount=1).

I guess we will see if I was full of shit now. :)

Quote from: David Johansen;916759On the other hand a kickstarter set up like this feels a lot like that.  It's a high end project with a very high funding goal.  There's no, funded at $1000 for a 64 page  GURPS lite Fantasy booklet.  The stretch goals are all shipping discounts.  Really, it's a bit like extortion, "pledge our kickstarter or the game you love will be lost forever mwahahahahahahah!"

Actually it makes sense in regards to how Munchkin and Board games dominate their company's business. Unless there is a compelling reason, every $1 of labor spent by SJ Games is best spend on Munchkin, their other board games, and then GURPS. This kickstarter is a chance for the fanbase and the market to change that equation to shove GURPS into the other board games. The $100,000 I assume is what it will take for GURPS to equal what they get from their other board games.

There is another path in that they could just open up GURPS to third party publishers and let them provide the labor. But that not likely to happen in the near future.

Quote from: David Johansen;916759I suspect that success here and in the future expansions including the hinted Space Opera will lead to a 4.5 or even 5th edition.

I think the focus should be implementing GURPS as a series of RPGs. It will amount to a 4.5e/5e anyway because of how you can hide the math and rules with a modular setup. Similar to how the Spaceships hides the use of Vehicles for 4e behind its modules. And 4e Vehicles is not even released yet. If they do ever release Vehicles for 4e then you will probably see how they built the Spaceship modules

I been advocating this for GURPS for long time (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=628313).

I love the Dungeon Fantasy series as a way of focusing the maelstrom of options in "raw" GURPS.  Definitely backing!

If this is successful it would be great to see a CAR WARS kickstarter...

WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE

Quote from: AaronBrown99;916772If this is successful it would be great to see a CAR WARS kickstarter...

WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE

Err, the last Kickstarter they did was for Car Wars?

Quote from: dbm;916789Err, the last Kickstarter they did was for Car Wars?

And the next edition of Car Wars is expected in January.

I've backed. I've really enjoyed my D&D 5e game, but I find that I'm having some issues trying to stretch 5e to do more than just be D&D. Sometimes I want the crunchy that is GURPS, and I think that this will be a great way to get my gaming group, who normally aren't in to that kind of crunchy, to give GURPS more of a shot.

Ester, if this thing flops we'll be eating crow.  Though I usually advocated for a series of short GURPS Lite booklets to build up sales of the core books.  Honestly this kickstarter is a better approach.  Who could have foreseen the rise of crowd funding back in 2008?

One thing I really like is that the retailer option is $75.   With the screen and three sets, that's a little better than 50% off.

Too many retailer options are for $500+ which is more than I want to risk on a long term gamble.

Quote from: dbm;916789Err, the last Kickstarter they did was for Car Wars?

For a set of maps, not an Ogre-anniversary edition version of Car Wars. Unless I'm very much mistaken, which happens.

Fair enough :)

I'm in for $250.

This is tempting.  I've tried to muddle through Gurps 4th to no avail, but this does look to solve a bunch of that for a dope like me.

Cover sketches (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1671950) - nice, reminds me of my early gaming days

Meh. It's still GURPS. And its not a new setting book.

The lack of a setting is an interesting choice.  Very much a "play Forgotten Realms or whatever with GURPS."

Personally, I'd have liked this to be GURPS Banestorm but then I also want the box full of action figures so you can show crouching, kneeling, aiming and so forth.  GURPS could totally be the action figure combat system.

I want some more detail about the game before leaping in. I am already a GURPS fan but I remember being excited about the Dungeon Fantasy series then kind of bummed because the whole deal was geared to super powerful high point total characters.

Part of what I like about fantasy gaming is the zero to hero experience. Starting out with 250 point templates for all the archetypes kind of kills that. I would like to know if this new incarnation has support for both low and higher point totals.

It's about time! I also agree that this would have been much more successful if they'd released it during D&D 4e.

Quote from: David Johansen;916954The lack of a setting is an interesting choice.  Very much a "play Forgotten Realms or whatever with GURPS."

I remember GURPS 1st edition, which I remember containing a lot of information for using GURPS with adventures you'd bought elsewhere, and a short 'fantasy without magic' adventure.  So, the idea of sitting down with this and, say, "CURSE OF STRAHD" sounds kinda tempting.

<< stupid browser double post! >>

I am glad it did not come with a setting and dont really see why people wish it did.
Making your own setting, which I prefer to do is a lot of work but very rewarding. But the option to use one of the GURPS fantasy settings already out there Banestorm, Conan, Madlands or another systems or just adapt a book all are pretty easy.
When I started there were no settings, we just had a generic town to go to.  Create an adventure and then another and so on is a decent way to play with little investment and eventually the GM creates a few specific NPCs, tossses a few names around and you have a setting.  Albeit a simple one, but it can grow organically and if the group wants that.

Perhaps but with a game aimed at new players, I think a simple setting would be helpful.  A town, a tavern, a dungeon, a castle ruled by an obnoxious baron.  Hmmm sounds like Keep on the Borderlands.

Quote from: David Johansen;917107Perhaps but with a game aimed at new players, I think a simple setting would be helpful.

Maybe the included adventure has a bit of that? I do think it could do with something firmer than just an anonymous dungeon and I'd be curious to see the GURPS version of Hommlet.

Quote from: David Johansen;917107Perhaps but with a game aimed at new players, I think a simple setting would be helpful.  A town, a tavern, a dungeon, a castle ruled by an obnoxious baron.  Hmmm sounds like Keep on the Borderlands.

Well the adventure does start in an Inn so thats one item.  And since you have to buy gear there has to be shops, though might not be detailed.
You know instead of the two addons (or maybe in addtion to) they could do a simple town.
Off to suggest that now :)

PS: Been too many years but yeah I think Keep on the Borderlands or the original Greyhawk were plenty workable.

Personally, I'd like a nice detailed poster map of Yrth but I know it's got a lot of detractors.

I know it's not a planned item but a nice poster map would be a selling point.

I don't see the need for some sort of D&D-esque mini-setting. To me this box set hearkens back to the Melee/TFT aesthetic of a focused dungeon combat game, updated with a lot of options. The bare bones implicit setting is part of the charm.

You know what would be an awesome addition for this?

An updated Orc Slayer module with dozens of orcs cardboard heroes.

Since I've been saying SJgames needs to do this for years I suppose I need to back it.

I think everyone who loves GURPS has been trying to tell them this for at least a decade.

Ironically, according to the first designers notes (https://medium.com/@SJGames/dungeon-fantasy-designers-notes-1-what-who-when-where-why-9a30e03493c1#.wtktqjnxg) they have been thinking about it themselves for about 12 years.

It is just that now, the stars are right...

So is this Steve Jackson basically coming back to TFT as close as he can?

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;917173So is this Steve Jackson basically coming back to TFT as close as he can?

In a roundabout way, that seems to be the end result. But it's still GURPS fourth edition with a lot more complexity than TFT. There's 400 pages of rules in that boxed set.

I'll be curious to see how the battle maps and minis are incorporated - using them by default was always one of the main charms of TFT .

It's already at 62k of 100k with 3 weeks left, so I assume it will fund. I saw this Kickstarter and planned on backing it, but then noticed you have to pay extra to get both print and PDF. Most of the rpg Kickstarters offer the PDF copies free if you order the print version, but they want $35 extra to add the PDF versions to your print copy. I said it would encourage people to back it if the PDFs were included in a print level pledge, but they said they aren't trying to encourage people to back it, they want to see how many people will buy print only without PDF support. Also, they said that the MSRP will be $49.95 whereas the Kickstarter they rounded up to $50. Since you would pay more to get it in the Kickstarter than you'll pay once released, and since you don't even get any perks for backing it on Kickstarter,  I'll just wait and order it from Amazon at a discount with free shipping. It would be stupid to pay $50 + $15 in shipping for no bonus/perk when I can order it for $35 (estimate of what Amazon will charge) with free shipping once it's released to distribution.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;917328It would be stupid to pay $50 + $15 in shipping for no bonus/perk when I can order it for $35 (estimate of what Amazon will charge) with free shipping once it's released to distribution.

For myself, I see it as a political vote... a vote for GURPS, a vote for 'traditional' games, a vote for boxed sets, and a vote for SJG doing the thing that people have been asking for for so long... and a vote for doing it again, and again with other genres/settings.

So, things have slowed down, as they do, but without any stretch goals in sight I worry that it won't hit the mark.  I don't really care about the stretch goals SJG have put up so I'm wondering what's to be done.

I'm wondering about fans placing side bets.  Fan made stretch goals as it were.  Not quite sure what that'd look like.  Fan built setting pdf or something?  Essentially, is there any way to get in and make side offers to move it along or something?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;917084Part of what I like about fantasy gaming is the zero to hero experience. Starting out with 250 point templates for all the archetypes kind of kills that. I would like to know if this new incarnation has support for both low and higher point totals.

This has been clarified now - the box set assumes a 250pt base, which many seem to peg at 5th to 6th level in D&D terms. If you want to dial it down then the PDF product Henchmen (http://www.warehouse23.com/products/gurps-dungeon-fantasy-15-henchmen) has suggestions for starting at 150pts, which is much closer to 1st level.

The artwork looks like it is a game for 6 year-olds. Uninspiring crap.

Quote from: jux;917627The artwork looks like it is a game for 6 year-olds. Uninspiring crap.

That's what Jackson always thought D&D was for, hence Munchkin.

There's a new update with a mostly done cover for the Adventurer's booklet (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1674877). You can debate the dynamism of the picture, but it doesn't say childish to me personally.

It will pair up with the cover for exploits (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1673830) to show a wider scene.

Quote from: jux;917627The artwork looks like it is a game for 6 year-olds. Uninspiring crap.

As opposed to stuff like your avatar, I guess, which is totally rad cos it's all dark and moody like the emo teens loved in 2006...? Just trying to understand your sophisticated tastes here.

It is pretty bland... 'bog standard'. But GURPS has always tended towards having bland art... not bad, just not interesting... no flair.

Art direction for RPGs is an interesting thing. I remember all the hoo-har about the 'dungeon punk' look adopted in D&D 3e. It really shouldn't make any difference to your enjoyment of the game, but it does.

I quite like high-action as you might find in anime, but none of my group like anime as a thing. No one even wants to play anime rules against a more western fantasy backdrop because the art stops them from even reading the book.

I want to like EABA and think the rules have lots of potential. But the limited art and 'text book' presentation makes it really hard to read.

GURPS being generic gives them a tough row to hoe. Do you go for a distinct artistic vision and thereby alienate part of your potential customer base? Or do you take an inoffensive position and become bland by default?

Personally I like the art they use.  It says GURPS is more grounded and realistic and less silly, which it is.

And, yeah, Steve Jackson said plenty of disparaging things about D&D back in the day.  Heck, even the GURPS Game Master section starts out with a discussion of dungeons as bad adventure design.

SJG now have lower cost shipping arranged (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1675074) for European backers!

Quote from: dbm;917734SJG now have lower cost shipping arranged (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1675074) for European backers!

Yep came here to be sure everyone saw it. UK and Europe both just got a nice price break.

I've collected all of Kromm's comments in the stickied DF Boxed Set thread (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2016/09/dungeon-fantasy-boxed-set-word-of-kromm.html) on the SJG Forums in one place, with a tech of formatting.

I also just finished a 90-minute interview with Sean Punch (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2016/09/dungeon-fantasy-boxed-set-interview.html) on this topic. I've got that, plus a seven-minute summary that he put in at the very end which is worthwhile on its own. MP3 files are available for those that wish to listen but not watch. Transcript forthcoming, but it'll be a few weeks.

Quote from: The_Shadow;917665As opposed to stuff like your avatar, I guess, which is totally rad cos it's all dark and moody like the emo teens loved in 2006...? Just trying to understand your sophisticated tastes here.

Quite right. Mine rocks!
But by the terrible artwork I actually meant the font, colour of the big text. It just screams - don't take me seriously! The picture itself is still too cartoony, but not that bad.

Quote from: jux;917894Quite right. Mine rocks!
But by the terrible artwork I actually meant the font, colour of the big text. It just screams - don't take me seriously! The picture itself is still too cartoony, but not that bad.

Dungeon Fantasy (the existing line of PDFs) has always had a self-aware, cheesy tone. It's not so much "enter a mystical, deep world of adventure" as it is "grab your cheetos and dice, put on your best Scottish accent if you're playing a dwarf and kick some kobold ass yet again". So yeah, it's not begging to be taken seriously. I like the art I've seen well enough, it's a bunch of standard adventurers in a dungeon which is what the game is all about.

The art seems fine to me - well done and resembling perfectly good standard dungeon fantasy scenes. Of course, I'm not really in the market for this game, so maybe that makes me less picky or something.

Quote from: jux;917894Quite right. Mine rocks!
But by the terrible artwork I actually meant the font, colour of the big text. It just screams - don't take me seriously! The picture itself is still too cartoony, but not that bad.

I like the picture, myself, but I agree with you about the title font.  It's the fantasy equivalent of Comic Sans.

There's been quite a bit of change in the stretch goals (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps?ref=user_menu) today, with more reduced shipping possible and another PDF on offer.

Quote from: Simlasa;917343For myself, I see it as a political vote... a vote for GURPS, a vote for 'traditional' games, a vote for boxed sets, and a vote for SJG doing the thing that people have been asking for for so long... and a vote for doing it again, and again with other genres/settings.

Agreed on all counts.  Also, GURPS is a great toolkit, but 4th is an intimidating monster to build a game out of if you're not an old pro at it.  It needs to go back to basics and provide a simplified gateway so that people can see it in actual application rather than in infinite possibility.  If they don't do this, then I think GURPS will eventually get old and die along with its aging, frothing, and numerically dwindling supporters.  I want GURPS to live, so I'm in.

Also, put me in the camp of people that think that an implied setting is enough.  Dungeon crawling is already a very specific genre-ish-thing. Keeping the possibilities of what lies beyond the dungeon is in keeping with the generic universal nature of the engine.

SJG have added some more of the existing PDFs (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1676534) in to the 'everything' bundle, so if you are a new entrant this is starting to look quite a good deal.

Well, Kromm answered the question I had regarding supported point totals. It seems like the trend these days is to make the default starting characters full fledged badasses right from the get go.

250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

Yep. Even Call of Cthulhu has made moves towards action heroes. When people say they want their PCs to be 'competent' it seems to imply 'cannot fail, must get gold star.'
Maybe the new edition of Kult will have PC that are straight up awakened godlings... no more of that oppressive nonsense about being trapped in the cage having archons fuck with you?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138Well, Kromm answered the question I had regarding supported point totals. It seems like the trend these days is to make the default starting characters full fledged badasses right from the get go.

250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

Yeah, I prefer lower point levels too. When I converted our long-standing TFT campaigns to GURPS, the most experienced characters came to a little over 200 points.

I think it's important to explain the range of available power settings. I've seen 25-point PCs be some of the most fun both for myself and for others to play. It tends to feel dull and silly to me when characters start being good at many things and super good at other things.

Higher power levels can be fun too, but is quite different. What I start to really not like is when there's just an inflation problem, as in GURPS Myth, where basic types like Brigand, Warrior and Ghol are shown at 150 points. I think the system works much better when at least most typical people are low point total. My mooks are more like 20-40 points, as in Orcslayer. Good competent people tend to be more like 80 points.

Of course in GURPS, the point total isn't that much of a measure of power in any particular area. It depends on what the points are in, and a more detailed character can end up with a high point total just because you listed the skills detailing their social skills, while you didn't bother to list that for the street thug who will beat the higher-point character into the ground because he has 8 points in Brawling.

Also, I think the rate of increase is even more important than the starting point, and I like that to be low, too, because otherwise, especially if the GM hands out points for good roleplaying or whatever, a campaign can lead to very high-point characters without really much in-gameworld reason why they are becoming super-heroes. I enjoy high-powered characters when/if they have a background that explains why they're so powerful, that's not "because they're the PCs" or "because players enjoy continuous significant character improvement".

Jesus these guys are stupid.  They have an entire library of GURPS and Dungeon Fantasy PDFs sitting there in Warehouse 23.  Want to see this KS go to crazy levels - add as stretch goals the old Dungeon Fantasy PDFs.  

Yeah, then you can't sell them to people who bought the KS.  Here's the thing genius, all the people who aren't going to buy the KS because the Stretch Goals suck...aren't going to buy the KS anyway, so they have no interest in the old Dungeon Fantasy.  

Newsflash: I ain't spending $50 on the box set, $20 on a screen, $35 for pdfs which should have been included anyway...and then another $238 dollars on the old Dungeon Fantasy pdfs as add-ons.  You're out of your goddamn mind.

You want to give GURPS a boost and "ride the nostalgia KS wave"(which is, I'm sure, what started all this in the first place) then do it right.

That will get you more buzz then paying Sean Patrick Fannon to put a blurb on Enworld.

Quote from: CRKrueger;918180Newsflash: I ain't spending $50 on the box set, $20 on a screen, $35 for pdfs which should have been included anyway...and then another $238 dollars on the old Dungeon Fantasy pdfs as add-ons.  You're out of your goddamn mind.

The $250 pledge level covers everything.

Note you do have a point but they also have it partially covered in their pledge levels. I personally am not going in at that because I have everything already because I bought it over the years. If you don't have any of it now. Then the $250 will get you everything up there which I believe is currently well over a $100 saving from buying it all separately.

They used be on top of everything and even leading the pack with electronic publishing and web policies then around the mid 2000s they just stopped evolving. Probably once again because of Munchkin + board games taking over their business. Still think Warehouse23 sucks compared to the old e23 web site.

Yeah, they have the $250 all in, but that's all older stuff.  If they'd simply made the older pdfs a stretch goal, like 7th Sea, or like Modiphius Conan, they would have funded already and be looking for new stuff to add.  

Trying to squeeze every last possible penny out of the old stuff as part of the new launch is just outdated thinking.  It points to this being exactly a "let's make money off the KS nostalgia games" thing rather then trying to move GURPS Fantasy forward into the space occupied by OSR/RQx and all the "New-Old games".  It's reactive instead of proactive.

But then again, SJG has no actual faith in their own RPG products, so it's not a surprise.

I get really tired of the company line that the stuff they put out is proper support.  Oh I've been called on it a time or two.  But the odds and ends and options they keep putting out without filling the significant and crippling gaps in system support just don't cut it from where I sit.

"You can use this article in Pyramid to build tracked vehicles using Space Ships!"  How could I ever miss that and how it would totally fix the gaping hole of vehicle support for GURPS.  I don't care if it's just a big book of standard vehicles or the full design system at this point.  A proper bestiary is harder to do I suppose but they've done it before.  A nice one stop book of general racial templates, animals, and monsters.

Admittedly, World of Warcraft and D&D fourth edition did a real number on the rpg business but that didn't stop any number of companies from producing Warcraft board games and rpgs at the time.

That said, I can sympathize with them being tired of fans like me giving them the gears.  But it's the internet and if you aren't a bit over the top and controversial nobody will ever read what you wrote.  Everyone just sitting around nodding their heads in agreement isn't at all interesting to read.

Quote from: David Johansen;918219I get really tired of the company line that the stuff they put out is proper support.  Oh I've been called on it a time or two.  But the odds and ends and options they keep putting out without filling the significant and crippling gaps in system support just don't cut it from where I sit.

"You can use this article in Pyramid to build tracked vehicles using Space Ships!"  How could I ever miss that and how it would totally fix the gaping hole of vehicle support for GURPS.  I don't care if it's just a big book of standard vehicles or the full design system at this point.  A proper bestiary is harder to do I suppose but they've done it before.  A nice one stop book of general racial templates, animals, and monsters.

Admittedly, World of Warcraft and D&D fourth edition did a real number on the rpg business but that didn't stop any number of companies from producing Warcraft board games and rpgs at the time.

That said, I can sympathize with them being tired of fans like me giving them the gears.  But it's the internet and if you aren't a bit over the top and controversial nobody will ever read what you wrote.  Everyone just sitting around nodding their heads in agreement isn't at all interesting to read.

I gave up on getting supporting products soon after they launched 4E then promptly abandoned it for and endless parade of munchkin supplements. If that is what was selling and paying the bills so be it. It was that combined with a lack of 3rd party support also. No we are not going to make the products you want and you can't publish them either. Its their football so they can keep it locked up in the house if they want to.

Imagine how much more popular the system would be if steady supplements & scenarios could have been published for the past 12 years or so. All on someone's else's dime without any risk.

Quote from: David Johansen;918219Admittedly, World of Warcraft and D&D fourth edition did a real number on the rpg business but that didn't stop any number of companies from producing Warcraft board games and rpgs at the time.

While true for the industry, it is the rise of Munchkin sales relative GURPS sales that did GURPS in for SJ Games. You can see this in their stakeholder reports. GURPS 4e was the #4 RPG at one point. But it reached that point just as Munchkin exploded onto the scene.

After the Secret Service raid in the 1990s and it nearly killing his company Steve Jackson has been very conservative with his business practices including hiring people. So when Munchkin proved wildly popular he didn't hire many more people rather shifted the attention of the people he got onto Munchkin. Which meant GURPS got the short end of the time and resource stick.

Which also means that since the early 2000s they didn't put much brainpower into doing new things with RPGs. By 2008 it became obvious to many that things has ossified in the RPG department. And as for the GURPS IP, Steve Jackson has a line that he doesn't appear to cross. Their fan policy was generous for circa 2000 but probably because of his experience with Metagaming, Steve Jackson probably not willing to share control of GURPS with anybody except for a traditional license agreement. Which won't happen because they are too busy with Munchkin.

And understand they are not fools for focusing on Munchkin. It is truly a once in a lifetime product for a company should be well supported.

The thing is that I can't stand Munchkin.  I played it once, ugh.  That's really all I can say for it.

Anyhow, I don't blame them for cashing in.

I do begrudge their unwillingness to allow third party support for GURPS.

I also begrudge their attitude and policies on freelancing.  I'm not saying they're wrong, I wouldn't want to work with me either.

No, I have no interest in producing fan material and tying all my work to a licence that will never allow me to make a dime on it.

No, I'd probably never make a dime on it.

It's the principle of the thing.

Pledged this morning.

Quote from: Skarg;918179Yeah, I prefer lower point levels too. When I converted our long-standing TFT campaigns to GURPS, the most experienced characters came to a little over 200 points.

I think it's important to explain the range of available power settings. I've seen 25-point PCs be some of the most fun both for myself and for others to play. It tends to feel dull and silly to me when characters start being good at many things and super good at other things.

Comparing point totals would add confusion and there is no need since all the players start the same.
Batman, Daredevil, Green Arrow, and Hawkeye are all low end Supers and quite a bit more than 250 points.

Quote from: CRKrueger;918180Jesus these guys are stupid.  They have an entire library of GURPS and Dungeon Fantasy PDFs sitting there in Warehouse 23.  Want to see this KS go to crazy levels - add as stretch goals the old Dungeon Fantasy PDFs.  

Haters have to hate I guess, but for those reading your post and thinking it might make any kind of sense your math is off.
The $250 level gets it all.

Quote from: refplace;918379Comparing point totals would add confusion and there is no need since all the players start the same.
Batman, Daredevil, Green Arrow, and Hawkeye are all low end Supers and quite a bit more than 250 points.

What confuses me, is why anyone would think this. I don't think people who would be confused by the idea of different point levels, has any hope of dealing with the GURPS rules themselves. First Edition through Third Edition GURPS did it. It only takes maybe a few sentences to explain that as a rough guideline, 25 points or so is an average person, 80 points is probably quite competent, 100 points is a good "hero material" starting point, 150 points is probably a powerful/gifted/advantaged person or a "hero", 200-250 points is a seasoned remarkable person/hero, 300-400 points is starting to get into comic book or movie hero or supernatural territory or something. What confusion? I expect MORE confusion from giving players 250 points. I've even seen new players get fairly confused from making and playing 150-point starting characters, because they have a bunch of abilities they aren't familiar with. Playing lower-point characters are far less confusing. Unless you're expecting to be a comic book superhero, and are going to be confused at why you aren't better than everyone else and competent at almost everything.

Quote from: refplace;918379The $250 level gets it all.

Yeah 250 dollars for mostly old stuff, unlike the most successful gaming Kickstarters that open the old catalog through stretch goals, then come up with new stretch goals.

"A new, as yet unwritten, Dungeon fantasy pdf delivered to all backers in 2017."
"A second..."
"A third..."
That's called not having enough faith in your KS to even come up with a friggin' plan.

I hope they make it, but instead of third of the way through and not funded, they could have been funded first day and putting GURPs back on the map.

Quote from: David Johansen;918219I get really tired of the company line that the stuff they put out is proper support.  Oh I've been called on it a time or two.  But the odds and ends and options they keep putting out without filling the significant and crippling gaps in system support just don't cut it from where I sit.

"You can use this article in Pyramid to build tracked vehicles using Space Ships!"  How could I ever miss that and how it would totally fix the gaping hole of vehicle support for GURPS.  I don't care if it's just a big book of standard vehicles or the full design system at this point.  A proper bestiary is harder to do I suppose but they've done it before.  A nice one stop book of general racial templates, animals, and monsters.

As a fan I do get tired of hearing this same old line.  It just doesn't make any sense the way you and others say it.
Just looking over the books list for Fourth Edition, so not counting the Third Edition stuff, most of which can be used with little or no tweaking (Not like you need to worry about point totals after all).
Creatures of the Night, 5 books
Dragons
Dungeon Fantasy 5 Allies
Dungeon Fantasy Monsters, 3 volumes
Monster Hunters 5 Applied Xenology
Supporting Cast: Age of Sail Pirate Crew (gets you pirate write ups)
GURPS Horror and GURPS Zombies are pretty much Monster focused

Additionally almost every setting book has setting related monsters.
As for dissing those that appear in Pyramid or part of adventures, other companies do that too and frankly I think its part of the attraction to an adventure to get a new monster or two.
Saying they have no Bestiary is just so silly that it is off-putting. Why keep making monster books for people who just keep complaining there are no monster books?
People who may not like the current line up need to stop being so blind and lazy, and instead of using buzz words like "Bestiary" and tell them more specifically what they want.

GURPS bestiaries or monster books are geared for (surprise!) different genres and settings.
In a generic system the modular approach makes sense, for every 1 person who wants a 20$ all in one book there are lots more who would yell about the wasted space for included stuff that did not fit their play style or genre.
Animals, dinosaurs, DF monsters, Horror monsters, Undead, aliens, and even bandits of various types (much less racial monsters) are all covered.  Yeah you need to look in more than 1 book, but than were back to the pay extra for stuff I wont use with an all-in-one book.
And of course some of us dont want them to stop coming up with new critters.
If you want more of a specific type, its fine to say so and request it. But keep saying they dont have anything just discourages more from getting written.

As for vehicles, almost as big a misrepresentation. What vehicles? Ancient ones are in Basic and low tech. Modern ones in Basic and High Tech (and really you dont need more than a template for base stats and your favorite search engine for flavors and fluff), Future vehicles? Again Basic has a few, Bio-tech, Ultra Tech, and the Spaceship series.
Sure the Vehicle Design System will be cool to have for the math heads who want to design things with scientific accuracy.  however for most people there are plenty of examples from which you can just eyeball the differences.
Again its a matter of being specific about what you want (and on the SJG forums where it will get more eyeballs from authors) rather than saying GURPS doesnt have any vehicles.
Authors look at statements like that and go "umm what?"  You want a book on modern jet fighters? motorbikes? wagon types? than say so or at least pick a time period or setting for a broader range.  Just remember too broad "every genre, every world" will tick off those who feel cheated for paying for more than they wanted.

Quote from: Skarg;918389What confuses me, is why anyone would think this. I don't think people who would be confused by the idea of different point levels, has any hope of dealing with the GURPS rules themselves. First Edition through Third Edition GURPS did it. It only takes maybe a few sentences to explain that as a rough guideline, 25 points or so is an average person, 80 points is probably quite competent, 100 points is a good "hero material" starting point, 150 points is probably a powerful/gifted/advantaged person or a "hero", 200-250 points is a seasoned remarkable person/hero, 300-400 points is starting to get into comic book or movie hero or supernatural territory or something. What confusion? I expect MORE confusion from giving players 250 points. I've even seen new players get fairly confused from making and playing 150-point starting characters, because they have a bunch of abilities they aren't familiar with. Playing lower-point characters are far less confusing. Unless you're expecting to be a comic book superhero, and are going to be confused at why you aren't better than everyone else and competent at almost everything.

Well not having read the new books yet, I dont know if maybe they are in there, but I doubt it.
Remember this is not GURPS for everything like the Basic set is.  This is GURPS streamlined for a specific sub genre of heroic high fantasy.  Wizards who can call lightning or toss fireballs and warriors who can wade through hordes of orcs, etc.
No reason to say "Your average car salesman...., Captain Kirk, Spiderman, Superman, Han Solo, etc would be built on x points."  That I think would just confuse people and add no value to something this specific. Let those who get into full toolkit mode read things like that in GURPS Basic.

Here you have 11 professions or character classes and 9 races, set about the power level of D&D 7th to 10 level as starting characters. First level 'roll and die' wouldn't work very well and 20th+ level is more something to work towards. GURPS is linear not geometric in advancement so a mid level is probably the better starting point.

Quote from: refplace;918396Well not having read the new books yet, I dont know if maybe they are in there, but I doubt it.
Remember this is not GURPS for everything like the Basic set is.  This is GURPS streamlined for a specific sub genre of heroic high fantasy.  Wizards who can call lightning or toss fireballs and warriors who can wade through hordes of orcs, etc.
No reason to say "Your average car salesman...., Captain Kirk, Spiderman, Superman, Han Solo, etc would be built on x points."  That I think would just confuse people and add no value to something this specific. Let those who get into full toolkit mode read things like that in GURPS Basic.

Here you have 11 professions or character classes and 9 races, set about the power level of D&D 7th to 10 level as starting characters. First level 'roll and die' wouldn't work very well and 20th+ level is more something to work towards. GURPS is linear not geometric in advancement so a mid level is probably the better starting point.

I see what you're saying, and I agree that if you want to run D&D-esque heroes in GURPS, you do want high point levels (though I think 150 would work too), but I think the information on point level options is valuable and not confusing. To run GURPS well, you need to be able to grasp some things, and this is not a difficult or unnecessary concept. Also, it backfires if the orcs are also going to be built on too many points. If you want to be able to "wade through hordes of orcs" in GURPS with a 250 point fighter, you'd better understand that you should probably create those orcs with about 10-40 points each, or you're going to have a bad time.

I remember dying a lot of times playing Conan Beyond Thunder River.  And Conan was 500 points.  Pict arrows against an unarmoured man.

Quote from: David Johansen;918407I remember dying a lot of times playing Conan Beyond Thunder River.  And Conan was 500 points.  Pict arrows against an unarmoured man.

Hehe yep! Funny how getting filled with arrows has that effect. Survival has much more to do with what you do and therefore what happens, than it does with having an uber character. I also remember running newbies in that module, and having them butcher picts left and right, or take a cautious action and have the adventure end because it didn't lead to a conflict.

Quote from: refplace;918392As a fan I do get tired of hearing this same old line.  It just doesn't make any sense the way you and others say it.

As a fan, fifteen years of being stonewalled, put off, and shown bits and pieces here and there gets tiring too.

But bear in mind that I'm thrilled that they're finally doing this.

Quote from: refplace;918396Here you have 11 professions or character classes and 9 races, set about the power level of D&D 7th to 10 level as starting characters. First level 'roll and die' wouldn't work very well and 20th+ level is more something to work towards.

So... since my favorite part of any D&Dish campaign is the first 5 levels... with me wanting to start a new character as we hit 6... this GURPS box doesn't really have much to offer me, because I don't want that higher level playstyle?

Quote from: Simlasa;918431So... since my favorite part of any D&Dish campaign is the first 5 levels... with me wanting to start a new character as we hit 6... this GURPS box doesn't really have much to offer me, because I don't want that higher level playstyle?

I supose that depends on what aspect of D&D over 5th level makes you feel the need to start over?

There's been more discussion of what DF is for. It's not intended to imitate D&D, it's intended to address the same premis as D&D but from a GURPS perspective: exploring hard to reach places, beating down the natives and taking the valuables back home.

Quote from: dbm;918459I supose that depends on what aspect of D&D over 5th level makes you feel the need to start over?

There's been more discussion of what DF is for. It's not intended to imitate D&D, it's intended to address the same premis as D&D but from a GURPS perspective: exploring hard to reach places, beating down the natives and taking the valuables back home.

Part of the appeal of that kind of campaign (for me at least) is that starting characters do not start out as larger than life heroes, they become so as play progresses. The characters are for the most part, a cut above regular people but still very much largely regular people.

The lower levels of D&D do the same thing that lower point totals in GURPS does. It teaches players the very basics of their character's abilities as they relate to ordinary people and helps teach the valuable lesson that charging into combat as a universal solution to everything is the quickest way back to the new character drawing board.

If the dungeon fantasy game is aimed at newcomers it would make sense to begin introduction of starting characters at lower point totals. If the D&D or Pathfinder beginner boxes had started players off with instructions to create characters of levels 7 to 10 it would have been much more intimidating to both new DMs and players.

The mindset switch between a game such as D&D and GURPS is a little confusing to those who aren't familiar with both systems. Starting beginning players out with characters who are full on badasses is only going to compound the issue. Players familiar with only D&D or similar systems won't realize just how much numbers actually matter in a GURPS game regardless of the capabilities of the mooks.

A 7th-10th level D&D fighter confronted with 6 guards from schmucksville leveling loaded crossbows at him will provoke a response of laughter. When they all fire, even if some of them manage to hit the fighter's high AC, the damage will be laughable and the fighter will proceed to advance and chop them to bits in short order.

The same player with a 250 point  dungeon fantasy warrior is confronted with 6 guards from schmucksville leveling loaded crossbows at him. Knowing that he he is roughly equal to his D&D fighter in terms of relative power level, he laughs at the guards.....and is riddled with crossbow bolts and down on the ground dying a mere 1 second later. Shit that was fast! "Hey" the player is thinking to himself. " I thought I was supposed to be this badass warrior?"

Lower power levels in any system are useful for teaching players how game abilities work a little bit at a time. Had that player encountered those guards with a 1st level D&D character do you think he might have reacted a bit different?

Beyond the teaching aspect for new players and GMs, starting at a lower point total allows for more room for growth before the characters become full four color dungeon supers. Not to mention that with a wider range of point totals there is nothing stopping experienced players or even new ones who want to jump into 250 or higher point characters from doing so if they wish, whereas eliminating support for characters under these levels leaves players new or experienced with little choice but to dive into the deep end of the pool and hope that they can keep track of everything.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918608Part of the appeal of that kind of campaign (for me at least) is that starting characters do not start out as larger than life heroes, they become so as play progresses. The characters are for the most part, a cut above regular people but still very much largely regular people.

That's totally cool as a preference. On the one hand, a phrase used to describe Dungeon Fantasy (as a line, not this specific product) and it's 250 point baseline is 'skip to the awesome'. As a design choice it ignores the part of a character's life where they are barely more capable than a regular Joe and pitches straight in to the more able stage. On the other hand, GURPS characters are still a lot more fragile than D&D characters since they are not equipped with bigger buffers of hit points to shrug off injury until the last gasp; to my mind this means that many scenarios like your guards point remain significant throughout the life of a GURPS DF character.

QuoteThe lower levels of D&D do the same thing that lower point totals in GURPS does. It teaches players the very basics of their character's abilities as they relate to ordinary people and helps teach the valuable lesson that charging into combat as a universal solution to everything is the quickest way back to the new character drawing board.

On the one side, yes, absolutely. On the other, however, because GURPS is more open in its structure than D&D is you can (with the exception of magic) try pretty much the same things at 150 points as you can at 250 or 350. The difference is in how likely or otherwise you are to succeed (and hence how big a difficulty factor you can take on). On the one hand, this can make GURPS more mechanically challenging to learn; on the other hand since most things you can attempt are strongly rooted in reality it is quite intuitive to say 'I attempt to feint' or 'We gang up on him'. You don't have to learn and then select a specific game mechanic to achieve the things you would expect to do; contrast vs DnD 3.x where you can't feint by default and flanking requires square perfect positioning or you don't achieve anything. The complexity is in knowing what benefit you receive, not what game move you need to undertake to achieve that benefit, and at the very least this makes it easier to try out cool manoeuvres.  Over time you will learn what level of difficulty you can overcome with an acceptable probability of success.

QuoteIf the dungeon fantasy game is aimed at newcomers it would make sense to begin introduction of starting characters at lower point totals. If the D&D or Pathfinder beginner boxes had started players off with instructions to create characters of levels 7 to 10 it would have been much more intimidating to both new DMs and players.

I think that genuine new comers will have it fairly easy, as they will draw their assumptions from reality and GURPS has strong ties to that. People coming from other games might have a harder time of it as they need to re-calbrate their assumptions. I guess we'll only know how good the product is at achieving that aim once we see it.

QuoteThe mindset switch between a game such as D&D and GURPS is a little confusing to those who aren't familiar with both systems. Starting beginning players out with characters who are full on badasses is only going to compound the issue. Players familiar with only D&D or similar systems won't realize just how much numbers actually matter in a GURPS game regardless of the capabilities of the mooks.

A 7th-10th level D&D fighter confronted with 6 guards from schmucksville leveling loaded crossbows at him will provoke a response of laughter. When they all fire, even if some of them manage to hit the fighter's high AC, the damage will be laughable and the fighter will proceed to advance and chop them to bits in short order.

The same player with a 250 point  dungeon fantasy warrior is confronted with 6 guards from schmucksville leveling loaded crossbows at him. Knowing that he he is roughly equal to his D&D fighter in terms of relative power level, he laughs at the guards.....and is riddled with crossbow bolts and down on the ground dying a mere 1 second later. Shit that was fast! "Hey" the player is thinking to himself. " I thought I was supposed to be this badass warrior?"

That just shows, to my mind, that GURPS and D&D model damage in very different ways. A person coming from RuneQuest would probably have a much lower assumption clash to contend with. I appreciate that this is intended to be a dungeon delving game and that is much more in the wheel house of D&D than it is RQ.

I think that GURPS makes active avoidance of damage much more of a thing than D&D does. I was just listening to the interview Dr Kromm did on the DF box set and he was talking about what makes dragons scary in this game (and big monsters in general). To summarise - there are no saving throws in GURPS. If a dragon breaths on you then the only way you are avoiding damage is to dive behind cover or outside of the area of effect. If you're too close to the centre of the effect you are out of luck. You don't get a chance to reduce or eliminate damage 'just because' like you do in D&D.

Similarly, the firing squad or jumping a perimeter guard don't work well in D&D but are built right in to the core assumptions of GURPS on how bodies respond to damage. In D&D, HP are justified in part through skill at getting out of the way, turning a telling blow in to a flesh wound and so on. In GURPS, HP are meat points by default and skills is represented by skill directly (higher parry, block and other active defences). Again, we'll see how well the product makes this clear once it is in hand.

QuoteLower power levels in any system are useful for teaching players how game abilities work a little bit at a time. Had that player encountered those guards with a 1st level D&D character do you think he might have reacted a bit different?

Like I said above, since GURPS doesn't generally wall off actions behind arbitrary permissions this is not so clear cut. Anyone can attempt a Rapid Strike for two attacks in a round in GURPS, but a low skilled combatant is unlikely to do it reliably. Yes, there are enhancers that you either have or don't have (Weapon Master being the obvious example here) but 90% of what WM does is to make you more likely to succeed. It doesn't really add new abilities or options that weren't there before.

QuoteBeyond the teaching aspect for new players and GMs, starting at a lower point total allows for more room for growth before the characters become full four color dungeon supers. Not to mention that with a wider range of point totals there is nothing stopping experienced players or even new ones who want to jump into 250 or higher point characters from doing so if they wish, whereas eliminating support for characters under these levels leaves players new or experienced with little choice but to dive into the deep end of the pool and hope that they can keep track of everything.

If you peg 'full four colour dungeon supers' at 250 points then you are right by definition, since there is no play proposed before that point. I don't think of 250 point characters as quite that uber personally, and think you can get a lot of growth on top of a 250 point base. But clearly this is a case of personal preference, and the level was picked to 'skip to the awesome' as noted.

TL;DR: If you don't want to play 250 point characters then the templates will be useless to you, though the box may still be beneficial as a cleaner presentation of the rules. I think jumping in at 250 points in GURPS is less of a hurdle than starting at 5th or 6th level in D&D.

Quote from: Simlasa;918431So... since my favorite part of any D&Dish campaign is the first 5 levels... with me wanting to start a new character as we hit 6... this GURPS box doesn't really have much to offer me, because I don't want that higher level playstyle?

Dial your number of starting points back. Don't buy all the items in your starting packages. Trust me, GURPS can emulate the zero to hero pretty damn well. I remember a Fantasy game I once played in where we started with 25 points and 50 disad points. It worked out quite well once our active totals hit around 100. (20 sessions later.)

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;918700Dial your number of starting points back. Don't buy all the items in your starting packages. Trust me, GURPS can emulate the zero to hero pretty damn well.

Yes, I agree. I like GURPS. My question was more of a challenge to the the idea of 'skip to the awesome' being the only style of play supported by the box. I'm still in on it, but knowing it has little or no direct support for low-power play means it will be of questionable use for me.

I've always thought Yrth was essentially Steve Jackson's take on what a fantasy game world should look like.  Now Yrth's reception is mixed and some of the key points like real world religions and a more realistically medieval setting where dungeons per say are rare, though chasing escaped gladiators into the sewers of Megalos or a dealing with a giant vampire mage might make Tomb of Horrors look like a cake walk.

So, Dungeon Fantasy has always struck me as another disdainful glance at D&D, just like Munchkin.

You know what I'd like?  A detailed poster map of Yrth and a good gazetteer.  A GURPS Fantasy Adventures hard back with an updated Orc Slayer, Harkwood, Tredroy, Fighters of the Purple Rage, Mordag's Little Finger, and yes, even Sahudese Fire Drill.  There was another one in there but it was pretty forgettable and only nominally Yrth related.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

If it sells, then why do they need a kickstarter?

Just possibly: they don't get it.

Quote from: David Johansen;918736So, Dungeon Fantasy has always struck me as another disdainful glance at D&D, just like Munchkin.

I don't feel DF take on fantasy is either disdainful or similar to Munchkin. It certainly doesn't have a serious tone but what it really lacks in its writing is a sense of wonder. Especially when compared to the various classic D&D rulebooks and many of the OSR rulebooks.

Everybody knows that the fantasy genre along with many D&D tropes are a bit of stretch when it comes plausibility. But what made D&D so effective from the get go is the sense of the wonder and fantastic that infuses the writing and the implied setting.

However in my opionion the tone current DF line is well within the range of rulesets of produced by the OSR. More serious than some, less so than others. It focuses more on the mechanics than most OSR rulesets. But in terms of mechanics has a few great gems that make for a worthy OSR supplement like the DF 8 Treasure Tables.

The main issue of the line until the kickstarter was the short list of monsters and that the fact when they do have monster half of of them are weird Fiend Folio style shit. I don't mind those kind of monster but after you cover the basics first.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918138Well, Kromm answered the question I had regarding supported point totals. It seems like the trend these days is to make the default starting characters full fledged badasses right from the get go.

250 points is not low powered to me. I suppose making supers out of every genre is what sells.

I disagreed with from 250 point starting point from the get go. The way it was explained to me in 2008 that 250 point isn't so much to make badasses but rather to allow GURPS DF characters to spend as much time in the dungeon as a D&D 3.X characters do before having to take a rest/break.

My counter argument then was people don't switch to GURPS to play a clone of D&D but rather they want to do the same thing they do in D&D but with the GURP rules and level of deadliness. That my group been using D&D modules successfully for years at the 125 to 150 point level. Granted the flow is different, more cautious and a lot more planning of ambushes and stealth scouting. Plus we would typically have a safe point to fall back too if we get into a rough fight. And our first investments were always into buying lots of healing potions and if we have enough powerstones for the mages as well.

I pointed out that people also mixed in "other things" with their dungeon crawling in D&D. That 250 point really cramped that portion of the campaign.

The major downside of the 250 point is the power level of the monsters. I had my friends use DF Monster 'as is' in our 150 point campaigns and they royally kicked our ass. Not all DF Monsters are that powerful but you need to be careful.

Finally in DF 15 Henchmen, they address the issue with rules and commentary. You can use that supplement to make lower powered DF campaign.

Also note that since the time I made that argument the OSR kicked into full gear. Knowing what I know now, I would point out that D&D 3.0 is a poor example of the dungeon trope they are trying to emulate. If you look at the trope originater, OD&D and AD&D. You will that character are not very damn tough unless they are tricked out with magic items. That what you should be emulating not D&D 3.X.

With with the DF boxed set we will have all the GURP Gearheads tearing down how things are built. Since we will have a proper list now and underneath it all is still GURPS. This means we will have enough examples to see not only what it takes to build a DF monster for the normal 250 point campaign, but how to build ones that work for a 150 point campaign. The rest of it like the current DF line will work in any GURPS Fantasy campaign of any point level.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;918743If it sells, then why do they need a kickstarter?

Just possibly: they don't get it.

It a boxed set. Seriously that alone warrants trying it as a kickstarter. But in general the purpose of the kickstarter is to find out if there is still is any life left in GURPS.

Seems to me that GURPS has always been a great game that players with compatible tastes/appreciation will always be into until/unless something better is developed. The marketing struggles SJG has had and continues to have with seem to me (armchair business critic of no authority except as a gamer/fan) to be about their mindset. I feel like there have been some pretty big mistakes which from my POV look like:

1) All the worldbooks which were mainly just light overviews with little/no gameplay rule/data content for players like me, and were not playable out of the box as campaign settings by people who aren't already mostly able to create their own campaigns anyway.

2) Making a very well developed tactical combat system, and a Magic system, and then not developing many other systems with rules developed to the same degree, so again, they weren't offering the same level of content, and were leaving GMs to fill in gaps.

3) Not showcasing how cool and different the tactical combat system can be. This, as a tactical combat fan coming from TFT, may be highly biased, but it seems like most people still don't get/appreciate how fun/cool/interesting/different it is to play a detailed tactical combat with explicit locations and facings and hit locations all with logical intuitive cause & effect and all that jazz that you can see and anyone can understand what's happening and make logical choices about. That's probably the main reason I want to play GURPS or games with those qualities, but it seems like few people even understand that's a thing that exists, or they think it's impossibly complicated. I may be deluded from my perspective, but that feels like a HUGE OVERSIGHT by SJG. Like, they should be able to kick Warhammer's ass by offering a much better battle game, by making a simple combat game based on GURPS as a gateway drug, and running glorious battles at conventions and so on. But oh well.

I always get my buttons pushed by the expression "is a game still ALIVE/DEAD" - games are eternal, and I hate the metaphor, which is about current popularity and attention, but implies a game has to have a life-cycle, and that current popularity and/or sales are what we ought to be interested in, as opposed to what's an interesting game or not.

Quote from: estar;918790I don't feel DF take on fantasy is either disdainful or similar to Munchkin. ...

Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Quote from: trechriron;918845Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

Well, I don't have any of the Dungeon Fantasy books, so I couldn't say.  Could you post a sample of what you consider to be snark/contempt?

Quote from: jcfiala;918856Well, I don't have any of the Dungeon Fantasy books, so I couldn't say.  Could you post a sample of what you consider to be snark/contempt?

I own the entire line and I'm interested in that as well. I don't see it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;918743If it sells, then why do they need a kickstarter?

Just possibly: they don't get it.

Kickstarter is a pre order program for direct to customer sales.

Quote from: Skarg;9188221) All the worldbooks which were mainly just light overviews with little/no gameplay rule/data content for players like me, and were not playable out of the box as campaign settings by people who aren't already mostly able to create their own campaigns anyway.

2) Making a very well developed tactical combat system, and a Magic system, and then not developing many other systems with rules developed to the same degree, so again, they weren't offering the same level of content, and were leaving GMs to fill in gaps.

3) Not showcasing how cool and different the tactical combat system can be. This, as a tactical combat fan coming from TFT, may be highly biased, but it seems like most people still don't get/appreciate how fun/cool/interesting/different it is to play a detailed tactical combat with explicit locations and facings and hit locations all with logical intuitive cause & effect and all that jazz that you can see and anyone can understand what's happening and make logical choices about. That's probably the main reason I want to play GURPS or games with those qualities, but it seems like few people even understand that's a thing that exists, or they think it's impossibly complicated. I may be deluded from my perspective, but that feels like a HUGE OVERSIGHT by SJG. Like, they should be able to kick Warhammer's ass by offering a much better battle game, by making a simple combat game based on GURPS as a gateway drug, and running glorious battles at conventions and so on. But oh well.

Bane Storm, Infinite Worlds, Vorkosigian, Disc World, and Mars Attacks are all out of the box settings.

The combat system is indeed awesome.  Actually I'm much less thrilled by the character creation.  It's there, it works, but it has any number of niggling issues that annoy me.  I'm not sure what other sub systems you want hyper detailed.  There's Social Engineering and the various Low Tech supplements anyhow.

Quote from: estar;918792I disagreed with from 250 point starting point from the get go. The way it was explained to me in 2008 that 250 point isn't so much to make badasses but rather to allow GURPS DF characters to spend as much time in the dungeon as a D&D 3.X characters do before having to take a rest/break.

My counter argument then was people don't switch to GURPS to play a clone of D&D but rather they want to do the same thing they do in D&D but with the GURP rules and level of deadliness. That my group been using D&D modules successfully for years at the 125 to 150 point level. Granted the flow is different, more cautious and a lot more planning of ambushes and stealth scouting. Plus we would typically have a safe point to fall back too if we get into a rough fight. And our first investments were always into buying lots of healing potions and if we have enough powerstones for the mages as well.

I pointed out that people also mixed in "other things" with their dungeon crawling in D&D. That 250 point really cramped that portion of the campaign.

The major downside of the 250 point is the power level of the monsters. I had my friends use DF Monster 'as is' in our 150 point campaigns and they royally kicked our ass. Not all DF Monsters are that powerful but you need to be careful.

Finally in DF 15 Henchmen, they address the issue with rules and commentary. You can use that supplement to make lower powered DF campaign.

Also note that since the time I made that argument the OSR kicked into full gear. Knowing what I know now, I would point out that D&D 3.0 is a poor example of the dungeon trope they are trying to emulate. If you look at the trope originater, OD&D and AD&D. You will that character are not very damn tough unless they are tricked out with magic items. That what you should be emulating not D&D 3.X.

With with the DF boxed set we will have all the GURP Gearheads tearing down how things are built. Since we will have a proper list now and underneath it all is still GURPS. This means we will have enough examples to see not only what it takes to build a DF monster for the normal 250 point campaign, but how to build ones that work for a 150 point campaign. The rest of it like the current DF line will work in any GURPS Fantasy campaign of any point level.

I suppose the disconnect is that I want a fantasy game that includes dungeons and SJG is making a "Dungeons Galore!" type of game. I really miss support for regular fantasy. Harkwood  and Tredroy were amazing.

Luckily I am familiar enough with the GURPS nuts & bolts to make the game that I want. I will probably pick up the DF set after release just to see whats in it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918994I suppose the disconnect is that I want a fantasy game that includes dungeons and SJG is making a "Dungeons Galore!" type of game. I really miss support for regular fantasy. Harkwood  and Tredroy were amazing.

Outside of the monsters centered around the 250 pt templates everything else in DF is applicable to any GURPS Fantasy campaign. And the people stat blocks in the Mirror of the Fire Demon and DF Henchmen are likewise useful to any GURPS Fantasy campaign. If they cover what classic D&D covers then I think it will be useful even for campaigns centered around Tredroy and Harkwood.

Quote from: trechriron;918845It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Are you talking about this?

Quote. . . the "plot" for a hack-and-slash adventure will be very simple. "Joe the Barbarian, with his friends Ed the Barbarian and Marge the Barbarian, went down into a cave. They saw lots of monsters and killed them and took their treasure. A dragon ate Ed. Joe and Marge ran away. The End."
– GURPS Basic Set

Fantasy is an engaging genre, bursting with wonder and mystery. It offers worlds full of fascinating lands, dotted with great cities and populated by exotic cultures. All of this has a powerful resonance with any gamer familiar with myth, fairytales, and the fantasy epics of literature and film. For that, get GURPS Fantasy.

But something else resonates with nearly every gamer. That's the thrill of taking a powerful, faux-medieval adventurer down into a cave – or a haunted forest, or a sinister stronghold – and seeing lots of monsters, killing them, and taking their treasure. For that, there's GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. Break it out when you don't feel like dealing with complicated plots, fussy social interactions, and so on. The results won't be refined. They might not even be "real roleplaying" (whatever that is). But they'll be fun!

My reaction was meh. After playing and refereeing the Dungeon Crawl Classic RPGs, and Hackmaster 4e, I care more about what they do with the rules. Outside of the focus on 250 pts as the baseline, the whole Dungeon Fantasy Line can hold it own against any OSR ruleset that gushes over the love of classic D&D. They may have written that snarky fire couple of paragraphs but they did not turn in a paint by the number supplement.

As a point of reference here is the entire line of DF supplements.

Adventurers, Dungeons, The Next Level, Sages, Allies, 40 Artifacts, Clerics, Treasure Tables, Summoners, Taverns, Power-ups, Ninja, Loadouts, Psi, Henchmen, Wilderness Adventures, Guilds, Power Items, Incantation Magic, Mirror of the Fire Demon Adventure, Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1, Dungeond Fantasy Monster 2 - Icky Goo, DF Treasures 1 - Glittering Prizes, DF Treasures 2 Epic Treasures.

My favorites are Dungeons, Treasure Tables, Loadouts,  Henchmen, and Mirror of the Fire Demon.

Quote from: estar;919015As a point of reference here is the entire line of DF supplements.

Adventurers, Dungeons, The Next Level, Sages, Allies, 40 Artifacts, Clerics, Treasure Tables, Summoners, Taverns, Power-ups, Ninja, Loadouts, Psi, Henchmen, Wilderness Adventures, Guilds, Power Items, Incantation Magic, Mirror of the Fire Demon Adventure, Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1, Dungeond Fantasy Monster 2 - Icky Goo, DF Treasures 1 - Glittering Prizes, DF Treasures 2 Epic Treasures.

My favorites are Dungeons, Treasure Tables, Loadouts,  Henchmen, and Mirror of the Fire Demon.

Kind of ironic that the full DF line is over 700 pages by my count, plus of course the Basic Set and any other GURPS books you might want to refer to. That's a lot of rules for a cheeto-munching dungeon crawl...may as well go with Rolemaster Standard System...

Actually, I usually do.  I find it easier to teach people.  The intellectual leap from D&D is less difficult for some reason.

Quote from: Simlasa;918730Yes, I agree. I like GURPS. My question was more of a challenge to the the idea of 'skip to the awesome' being the only style of play supported by the box. I'm still in on it, but knowing it has little or no direct support for low-power play means it will be of questionable use for me.

DF 15 gave us Henchman wich were a lot lower power.  But the goal of the boxed set is to make it simple and playable right out of the box.  So they had to pick 1 starting point rather than several.But you have plenty of room to grow and get better.
And if your used to the system changing point totals for lower or higher powered games is not hard.

Quote from: estar;918795It a boxed set. Seriously that alone warrants trying it as a kickstarter. But in general the purpose of the kickstarter is to find out if there is still is any life left in GURPS.

Plenty of life in GURPS, remember it has monthly product.  This is not to see if GURPS sells but to gauge demand for printed vs. PDF
A lot of people keep clamoring for printed product but making the same book in PDF format is a lot cheaper and faster.  This is SJG testing to see how many of those people asking for printed books are actually willing to pay for them.

Quote from: trechriron;918845Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Kromm (the author) has repeatedly stated that computer games were just as much, if not more the inspiration.
Diablo gets mentioned a lot.  Think about how detailed your typical computer game town is vs. the dungeon, or just the whole idea that all those monsters are holed up in a dungeon just waiting for you to come down and slay them.
Its not a slap or demeaning to the genre, its more like laughing at an inside joke.
When I started D&D in 76/77 we wll recognized it but played because it was fun.  D&D was not about rich detailed worlds of wonder, it was about what was behind the next door.
This is what Dungeon Fantasy is aimed at.
Sure you can build on it, but the starting point is all about just rolling dice and killing monsters with your friends.
Its a simpler concept, not a demeaning one.

Quote from: Simlasa;918730Yes, I agree. I like GURPS. My question was more of a challenge to the the idea of 'skip to the awesome' being the only style of play supported by the box. I'm still in on it, but knowing it has little or no direct support for low-power play means it will be of questionable use for me.

Quote from: estar;918795It a boxed set. Seriously that alone warrants trying it as a kickstarter. But in general the purpose of the kickstarter is to find out if there is still is any life left in GURPS.

Quote from: trechriron;918845Weird. When I read through DF line, I see a lot of contempt for "typical D&D style fantasy". The whole tongue in cheek thing really turned me off of it. Sure, there are silly tropes in the genre (D&D as a genre...), but much of the DF pointers/advice, etc. comes off as insulting. I'm a fan of SJGames and GURPS, I can only imagine what someone new to the fold might feel about it. Unless of course the whole snark/contempt thing is a selling point. Remembering how my storygames friends took to D&D4e and the reasons why, this whole "if you MUST romp around kicking down dungeon doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff - use our hip sleekly designed way of doing it so you can be one of the cool kids!" approach may be spot on.

It just rubbed me the wrong way I guess.

Quote from: David Johansen;918897Bane Storm, Infinite Worlds, Vorkosigian, Disc World, and Mars Attacks are all out of the box settings.

The combat system is indeed awesome.  Actually I'm much less thrilled by the character creation.  It's there, it works, but it has any number of niggling issues that annoy me.  I'm not sure what other sub systems you want hyper detailed.  There's Social Engineering and the various Low Tech supplements anyhow.

Powered by GURPS were complete games, most rules lite.
http://www.sjgames.com/poweredbygurps/
That is a decent variety.

Here is the index of all 4th and 3rd edition books
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/

Unless they say Powered By they needed the core rules to play. Most GURPS world books were set up this way.  Rathr than pay for the rules for each setting you bought them separately.
So if I wanted to go from Witch World to Conan to Horseclans to Traveler or InNomanae to IOU to Conspiracy X or Illuminati or Cabal or Banestorm or whatever all I had to do was pay for the core rules ONE TIME and than just buy the setting I was interested in.  And if I wanted to make up my own they had books to help me there too.
I think GURPS Third Edition had more licensed settings than anyone else out there, and you didnt have to pay for the rules all over again for most of them.
It was a higher point of entry for some things (though the core AD&D books were not cheaper) but once you were in the addons were inexpensive.  Even less expensive once they started doing PDF.

However all those options left some people feeling intimidated.  So the series Dungeon Fantasy, Action!, Monster Hunters, and now After The End were made.  Each required the Basic set but gave guidelines on what rules and options to use and what to skip, plus added new stuff to fit the flavor of that line (like a minigame).

This and DIscworld are both back to the Powered by model so streamlined rules and out of the box play are the main points.  But they can still have stuff from the rest of the GURPS line bolted on if you want to, or you can mine them for ideas.
For example I prefer rich detailed fantasy worlds so do not run Dungeon Fantasy.  However a lot of the material I use for ideas and because its the same underlying system its easy for me to use in other settings.

Quote from: The_Shadow;919021.may as well go with Rolemaster Standard System...

First most of it is support. All you really need to save time is Characters and Dungeons and maybe Loadouts.

GURPS is better designed than any version of Rolemaster. Of course that my highly subjective opinion. GURPS problem is  not how it plays. But all the damn lists you have to get through in order to start playing.

Quote from: refplace;919030Plenty of life in GURPS, remember it has monthly product.  This is not to see if GURPS sells but to gauge demand for printed vs. PDF
A lot of people keep clamoring for printed product but making the same book in PDF format is a lot cheaper and faster.  This is SJG testing to see how many of those people asking for printed books are actually willing to pay for them.

Prior to the kickstarter, GURPS publishing catered to the fans. If it attracted a new gamer now and again great but no special effort was made to attract them. Even the planned hardbacks, Discworld and Mars Attack, are meant to cater to a fan base. In those cases the fans of the respective two settings who want to roleplay. Mars Attack more or less is a gonzo product. Discworld is a comedic setting as well but not gonzo in the way Mars Attack is.

This niche approach allowed GURPS to survive as a presumably profitable line. However it also has make GURPS relative rank to other RPGs collapse. It not longer even the leading generic RPG as it share that spot with Savage Worlds and Fate.

Not any of the above lends any confidence that GURPS can make a play for being one of the top 5 RPGs if SJ Games puts in the resource. This kickstarter is a test for the idea that GURPS sales can return to what they were relative to the rest of the industry.

Quote from: refplace;919032Powered by GURPS were complete games, most rules lite.
http://www.sjgames.com/poweredbygurps/
That is a decent variety.

Here is the index of all 4th and 3rd edition books
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/

For my part, I am well aware of all the GURPS books included the powered by lines. All of them are toolkits including the Powered by GURPS lines. The only difference with the Powered by GURPS books is that they are a toolkit for a specific setting or narrow subgenre. Yes it does save time over the core books they are incomplete compared to similar RPGs.  For example GURPS Traveller vs. Traveller (most other editions).

The DF Kickstarter is different is that while it is still GURPS it written as if is a standalone RPGs. Basically is GURPS in the Chaosium complete RPG style instead of the SJ Games toolkit style.

I guess what really irks me is the contrast from what I see GURPS as being capable of, looking at its strengths and comparing it to a LONG list of other games that do what this box set is trying to do. Better.

What appeals to me about GURPS IS the details. It digs in where a lot of other games don't. For me, the details in creating powers, customizing templates, etc. are a big deal. Even better, the focus on culture and language! The possibilities of all those details invested in a setting that utilizes them is exciting. But instead, we get "you should play D&D with GURPS". Which has no appeal to me. D&D5e works for D&D. As does many editions or clones for many people. Why not play to your strengths? Just front-load the work so people can pick it up and play! It would serve as an example of how to do it yourself in addition to showcasing what GURPS is good at.

I believe this is more about the market perception and what can be gained (the money!) vs. the passion of what is being made. Which I feel is unfortunate. When you read GURPS the attention to details doesn't match the "Dungeon Fantasy" approach.

Just my two cents...

I think GURPS would need a killer app, either in the form of a major licence, say Marvel Superheroes or Star Trek to get into the top five these days.  While it's possible to develop and drive a new property, only one in a million would happen to hit the sweet spot and put GURPS back in the top five.  Another possibility would be to grab a number of mid range properties like Robo Cop and Blade Runner and do custom games for them in boxed sets or hard backs to try and bring a wide range of people into the game.  R Talsorian already tried this with FUZION and one could argue that SJG has though they've spaced it out more than the kind of marketing offensive I'm talking about.

In any case being in the top five doesn't necessarily mean profitable.  It could just mean a short hot burn towards the blackhole of bankruptcy.

What people want is something which they can use to just sit down and play. By having a particle physicist write it and trying to appeal to the gearheads, they destroyed it.

I say this as a former "Man In Black" who used to go into game stores and get people to play. It's just too fucking much, which is why they now ask for handouts rather than just writing things and selling them like they used to.

Straightforward point-buy system + worldbooks. This was the successful formula for 20 years or so. It worked so well, they stopped doing it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;919178What people want is something which they can use to just sit down and play.

To be fair, this is exactly what they are trying to do with the Dungeon Fantasy box set.

QuoteBy having a particle physicist write it and trying to appeal to the gearheads, they destroyed it.

I think 'over listening to the core fans' is perhaps a reasonable criticism. And it's one that many companies have fallen foul of, though that is no excuse. At least they deserve some credit for attempting to reach out to the wider community again, rather than leaving things in a cycle of spiralling down into a smaller and smaller rabid fan base before hitting total collapse as a product.

Quote from: trechriron;919099I guess what really irks me is the contrast from what I see GURPS as being capable of, looking at its strengths and comparing it to a LONG list of other games that do what this box set is trying to do. Better.

Except to do even half of what those other games do in GURPS you have to use the toolkit. And that is the turn off for novices getting into GURPS.

Quote from: trechriron;919099What appeals to me about GURPS IS the details. It digs in where a lot of other games don't. For me, the details in creating powers, customizing templates, etc. are a big deal.

This argument has is bandied about on the SJ Games forum since a bunch of us originally floated the idea as far back as 2008. The GURPS core book still remain in print and available. The elements of the DF RPGs are devired from the core book. What exactly is the issue. Are you saying everything time you want to use GURPS you are going to have the time to employ it as a tool kit? Wouldn't it better to have both? A core book and supplement that functions as a toolkit with all the details, and a boxed set with stuff already created?

As part of my original suggestion I recommended that this format be used for Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Horror. That all three should use as their implied setting the most popular RPG of each of their genre, (D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu). That the Core books still should be supported and sold. That each of these ready to run products should have a handful of product and stop there.

By the time a novice has mined those the full GURPS line should appeal to them. Note by by novice I mean a newcomer to GURPS.

Quote from: trechriron;919099Which has no appeal to me. D&D5e works for D&D. As does many editions or clones for many people. Why not play to your strengths?

They done that with Dungeon Fantasy, Action, and Monster Hunter all lines of focused supplement implementing GURPS for those genres. Along with setting specific products like Discworld, Mars Attacks, Interstellar Wars, Banestorm, and Volkingesen.

Guess what? GURPS still slipped relative other RPGs including other generic RPG. What they were doing wasn't working and doubling down wouldn't have changed a damn thing.

I get that another Dungeon Fantasy D&D style RPG is not appealing to you. Which is why they should do this with the other major genres.

I don't really have any particular expectations for this, but signed on for one simple reason: Ever since I saw the OGRE boxed set I've had a recurring fantasy/fever-dream that someone would create a similarly grand boxed set reboot of OGRE's relative and my favorite game: The Fantasy Trip. That will never happen, and the DF boxed set will not really go to this place in game design space. But, I can't really walk away from what has to be the closest thing to my boxed-set-game dream.

GURPS still exists? I thought it received about as much support as Mission to Mars nowadays.

Quote from: dbm;919211I think 'over listening to the core fans' is perhaps a reasonable criticism. And it's one that many companies have fallen foul of, though that is no excuse. At least they deserve some credit for attempting to reach out to the wider community again, rather than leaving things in a cycle of spiralling down into a smaller and smaller rabid fan base before hitting total collapse as a product.

I think this is the symptom not the issue. The issue was the explosive growth of Munchkin and it sucking up nearly all of SJ Games labor pool and internal mind share. GURPS was reduced to two or three people and one guy to think about the line, Kromm. After which GURPS level of innovation went way down along with everything else that SJ Games did outside of Munchkin.

The fact that line evolved the way it did was driven by what the freelancers wanted to write. Kromm could only write so much.

Then on of top that was layered the usual quirks that SJ Games has shown about RPGs.

You don't have to take my word for it, just read the Stakeholder Reports starting in 2004.

My guess that this is happening now is because they decided to give Kickstarters a try, and first up with Ogre. They probably had a line up of board games and GURPS stuff lined up to try if Ogre was successful. But Ogre was a monster hit and a monster to fulfill. Luckily there was some unexpected interest in Car Wars so look like they just went ahead and did a modest Kickstarter to get a handle on it. Now they are back onto their original plan and I guess DF was next.

Quote from: Rincewind1;919295GURPS still exists? I thought it received about as much support as Mission to Mars nowadays.

Not it just became a niche RPG with regular PDF releases and once a year print releases. Then the Ogre kickstarter fucked that as well but they got back on track at a slightly higher level of activity a year ago.

Quote from: David Johansen;918897Bane Storm, Infinite Worlds, Vorkosigian, Disc World, and Mars Attacks are all out of the box settings.

The combat system is indeed awesome.  Actually I'm much less thrilled by the character creation.  It's there, it works, but it has any number of niggling issues that annoy me.  I'm not sure what other sub systems you want hyper detailed.  There's Social Engineering and the various Low Tech supplements anyhow.

Yes, those books are much better. I was talking about most of the worldbooks released before 4e. 4e content books in general tend to be much more detailed and interesting to me.

I agree the character creation system has issues. (Mainly too many things in the Basic Set, and not enough connection to in-world causes.)  I always end up using my own highly restricted/modified character creation processes, character development systems, and so on. I want in-world cause & effect so the point system is just a rough value estimate for me, and the extra attention in 4e where it cares a lot about how many points for this & that is largely noise until I attach it to some house rules that convert points for specific things to specific in-world causes.

Quote from: trechriron;919099I guess what really irks me is the contrast from what I see GURPS as being capable of, looking at its strengths and comparing it to a LONG list of other games that do what this box set is trying to do. Better.

What appeals to me about GURPS IS the details. It digs in where a lot of other games don't. For me, the details in creating powers, customizing templates, etc. are a big deal. Even better, the focus on culture and language! The possibilities of all those details invested in a setting that utilizes them is exciting. But instead, we get "you should play D&D with GURPS". Which has no appeal to me. D&D5e works for D&D. As does many editions or clones for many people. Why not play to your strengths? Just front-load the work so people can pick it up and play! It would serve as an example of how to do it yourself in addition to showcasing what GURPS is good at.

I believe this is more about the market perception and what can be gained (the money!) vs. the passion of what is being made. Which I feel is unfortunate. When you read GURPS the attention to details doesn't match the "Dungeon Fantasy" approach.

Just my two cents...

There is definitely passion over money from SJG here, The material is already written.  Kromm got the green light and started writing this since January and if the kickstarter fails (88.5% funded with 16 days to go so it wont) all that work would have been wasted.  The steep discounts (over $500 worh of stuff for the $250 level), all the time the CEO and others are putting into answering questions, etc is more about passion than the money they could make here.  GURPS is a drop in the bucket to Munchkin revenue.

As for the level of detail and quality, its there in the DF line.  The thing is GURPS is not about making a one size fits all approach, instead its trying to be a system that can adapt to your needs and tastes rather than shoehorning everything into a smaller box. You have rich detailed settings like Transhuman Space and Infinite Worlds and older less developed ones like Banestorm or Maddness Dossiar and you have liscenced settings to attract new players who are fans of those settings.
DF will never replace GURPS nor is it intended too.  It is just the most popular section of GURPS.
That is it.  The kickstarter is not a new edition of GURPS to resolve complaints from the previous edition or to make you buy new stuff because your old supplements dont work anymore.
The kickstarter is designed to ease the complexity of entry so new people will gie it a try.  And many current fans prefer simplier shorter lists of choices so it appeals to them as well.
Those like you and me who desire more complexity still have the option! Hopefully we get more people to play with from all this.  Meantime if you like Fantasy you can pick through DF and mine it for ideas.

You said "Why not play to your strengths? Just front-load the work so people can pick it up and play!"  and that is EXACTLY what this is doing.

Quote from: estar;919296My guess that this is happening now is because they decided to give Kickstarters a try, and first up with Ogre. They probably had a line up of board games and GURPS stuff lined up to try if Ogre was successful. But Ogre was a monster hit and a monster to fulfill. Luckily there was some unexpected interest in Car Wars so look like they just went ahead and did a modest Kickstarter to get a handle on it. Now they are back onto their original plan and I guess DF was next.

I agree with this part, Ogre was an experiment that they learned from and tested with Car Wars Arenas.
I think so far its proving they learned from prior efforts and DF was the most logical first try for GURPS.  I am hopeful to see other lines, I think Space Opera is a strong candidate, though I would like to see Supers take advantage of the movies being released now between DC and Marvel. Horror could also be given the easier front loading treatment.

Quote from: refplace;919321...

You said "Why not play to your strengths? Just front-load the work so people can pick it up and play!"  and that is EXACTLY what this is doing.

That's not what I meant. It should bring more of the unique strengths of GURPS and showcase how to gradually ramp it up; how to incorporate various resources and options from the vast library. It should have cultures, and languages, and social engineering and the lot as things you add in as the adventure progresses. It should be a serious setting with dynamic and rich details that start simple (the little town you live in) and grow in scope across an example campaign.

Instead they are pitching an "engine" replacement for D&D. Not a unique game rolled and inspired from GURPS. D&D already has attracted a ton of people back into the hobby with 5e. GURPS would be like the polar-opposite as far as system is concerned. (note that I have played/GM'ed a ton of 4e and own nearly the entire DF line...)

Worse, there are hardcover books announced that "won't be profitable" enough to produce. So they sit while we toss 100k at SJGames to make D&D GURPS.

It is quite obvious what SJGames cares about. Money. Period. It's like watching a nerd-version of Josey and the Pussycats. "D&D is the new black!"

Except in the end you can't jam a boxed-set of GURPS into a magic-machine and get D&D out on the other side. There are probably a dozen things that would improve the play-ability, marketability, and usability of GURPS. This is not one of them. I'm sure they will make their target. In contrast, Monte Cook games just topped 500k on their new hotness! I wonder if we dreamed big instead of "1980's" what amazing piles of cash we could get from a Kickstarter making GURPS the new hotness? SJGames will never know.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and as always, if this thing turns you on, you should do it BABY! /Austin Powers. I'm just calling a spade a spade. It's another missed opportunity in a string of questionable business decisions regarding GURPS. I no longer have a horse in the race. I've tossed my $1000 at them already (which obviously made no impression whatsoever... HAH). I'm tired of the hard sell and hardship of making this beast work at the table. This boxed set is not going to change that.

Have fun!

I think it is equally possible that they are just having fun getting back to the roots of the system. GURPS was clearly built to be the update/replacement of the license SJ had to abandon when he left Metagaming (TFT), and that earlier system was very much a fantasy game with lots of tactical, dungeony action. This is pretty clear in the first couple years of GURPS releases - an arena combat game that is sort of like Melee on steroids (Man to Man), and early editions that really catered more to fantasy gaming than anything else. The whole thing grew in a billion different directions over the years, and the system became correspondingly complicated (or at least filled with option). But it isn't like its some sort of sellout for them to go back down the wormhole and produce something more similar to the starting point.

If I remember correctly, Dungeon Fantasy was their best selling pdf line so it makes sense in that way.

They've hinted at least a couple times that if they did anything about a point of entry it would be for Dungeon Fantasy.

Hopefully this kickstarter will kickstart GURPS production and sales.  It's not my perfect ideal but it may do.

Maybe we'll finally see a more approachable one book GURPS Medium down the road if that is the case.

It would have been nice to see a traditional kickstarter with crazy stretch goals and lots of new stuff on offer but maybe if this works out we'll see a more energetic run at the next thing.

But yeah, Trenchiron, I've got a tall stack of GURPS books but it doesn't count for much with SJG right now.

The battle cry is,"show me the money."

That's okay, they're in business.  Trust me, running a business that doesn't make money can be pretty depressing.

Quote from: Larsdangly;919452I think it is equally possible that they are just having fun getting back to the roots of the system. GURPS was clearly built to be the update/replacement of the license SJ had to abandon when he left Metagaming (TFT), and that earlier system was very much a fantasy game with lots of tactical, dungeony action.

That way of looking at it does get me back on the beam a bit. We played a lot of Melee/Wizard and TFT back when and it WAS a big part of why I jumped into GURPS when I first heard of it.
This probably is the next best thing to a big boxed set for TFT and if I can keep faith in that I'll be quite happy with it.

I hope the kinds of stretch goals and/or follow ups they have in mind include gameable play aids like tesselated maps, markers, etc. rather than just more books. I've already got about 5000 pages of text of GURPS-related material on my shelf (literally!) - I'ld prefer not to add any more wall-of-text materials, but I would definitely enjoy having a box or two of materials that you will really pull out and use at the table. This is the direction they went with Car Wars and Ogre, so perhaps they are thinking about it.

Quote from: trechriron;919450That's not what I meant. It should bring more of the unique strengths of GURPS and showcase how to gradually ramp it up; how to incorporate various resources and options from the vast library. It should have cultures, and languages, and social engineering and the lot as things you add in as the adventure progresses. It should be a serious setting with dynamic and rich details that start simple (the little town you live in) and grow in scope across an example campaign.

Instead they are pitching an "engine" replacement for D&D. Not a unique game rolled and inspired from GURPS. D&D already has attracted a ton of people back into the hobby with 5e. GURPS would be like the polar-opposite as far as system is concerned. (note that I have played/GM'ed a ton of 4e and own nearly the entire DF line...)

The fact of the matter is that when most gamers switch to another RPG other than D&D/Pathfinder they are looking for a better "D&D" i.e. better fantasy roleplaying. Fantasy outsell every other genre by an order of magnitude even among non-D&D RPGs. Even the leading genre games have liberal dose of fantasy elements: Star Wars (space opera + mystical force powers) vs. Traveller, Shadowrun (fantasy + cyberpunk) vs. Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0 , World of Darkness (roleplaying fantasy monsters) vs. Call of Cthulu.

In addition GURPS has tried "unique" powered by GURPS games. Hell they are even doing Discworld again.

Since the mid 2000s I been pushing for this because it is based on what players who I tried to convince to referee or play GURPS have been telling me since the mid 90s throughout western PA and eastern Ohio. It is not just a handful but consistent among dozens of players I refereed at home, conventions and at game stores.

I state the mid 90s because prior to that GURPS was in the form of the 2nd edition boxed set. Second edition was far more approachable for the novice GURPS player than the 3rd edition or the current 4th edition. Again both prior to the mid 90s and afterwards the vast majority that showed in GURPS were interested in it as a fantasy RPG.

Now unless you have better data then me your argument doesn't hold water. Whatever you come up with must account for the fact that the fantasy roleplaying dominates RPGs, the comments of hobbyist on why they don't play GURPS, and the fact that SJ Games released a variety of unique powered by GURPS books for 4e.

What you are proposing is doubling down what they been doing for years. To release more products like Transhuman Space, Mars Attacks!, and Discworld.

Also note nowhere you state any specifics about what they should do. Yes you detailed some parameters like culture, language, and social engineering. But what does that translate into specifically? And how that attracts novices into GURPS?

So, GURPS may be making a comeback? Cool.

Quote from: trechriron;919450That's not what I meant. It should bring more of the unique strengths of GURPS and showcase how to gradually ramp it up; how to incorporate various resources and options from the vast library. It should have cultures, and languages, and social engineering and the lot as things you add in as the adventure progresses. It should be a serious setting with dynamic and rich details that start simple (the little town you live in) and grow in scope across an example campaign.

Instead they are pitching an "engine" replacement for D&D. Not a unique game rolled and inspired from GURPS. D&D already has attracted a ton of people back into the hobby with 5e. GURPS would be like the polar-opposite as far as system is concerned. (note that I have played/GM'ed a ton of 4e and own nearly the entire DF line...)

Worse, there are hardcover books announced that "won't be profitable" enough to produce. So they sit while we toss 100k at SJGames to make D&D GURPS.

It is quite obvious what SJGames cares about. Money. Period. It's like watching a nerd-version of Josey and the Pussycats. "D&D is the new black!"

The two hardcover books your talking about GURPS Discworld and GURPS Mars Attacks are coming out in Nov and Dec this year.
They are a business and one of the most successful in the industry and part of the reason they stayed in business is they try to make at least some profit on each item. However if they were all about money they would go with the ROI and move the GURPS resources to a more profitable line, like Munchkin.
You may disagree with their choices and methodology, were all Monday morning quarterbacks. But the evidence is crystal clear this is about more than money.

As for the replacement to D&D, its not.  The DF line was a specific call out to TFT as Larsdangly called out (I dont think he has the legal right to actually use TFT, but GURPS was clearly inspired by it) and the specific lines DF, Action, Monster Hunters and After the End all target a specific often repeated fan request for "simplier".
Dungeon Fantasy boxed set is just going a step further by combining that focus with the Powered by GURPS (all you need in one book/box) idea and running with it.

The goal isn't to beat D&D, it is to address the single biggest complaint about GURPS which is that it is too big and overwhelming to people, especially those just getting started with it.
It, along with the new edition of Discworld and Mars Attacks are also intended to gauge demand in 2016 for printed material, another thing GURPS fans vocally request.

Quote from: Simlasa;919472That way of looking at it does get me back on the beam a bit. We played a lot of Melee/Wizard and TFT back when and it WAS a big part of why I jumped into GURPS when I first heard of it.
This probably is the next best thing to a big boxed set for TFT and if I can keep faith in that I'll be quite happy with it.

I hope you stay happy :)
In the end that is what gaming is all about, and if they make some of us happy (cant please everyone) and make enough profit to stay in business than its a win.IMHO SJG clearly is about both the staff and us having fun, while remembering they also have mouths to feed.

Quote from: trechriron;919450It is quite obvious what SJGames cares about. Money. Period. It's like watching a nerd-version of Josey and the Pussycats. "D&D is the new black!"

Be serious.  If they were only interested in Money, they'd fire Kromm and get to work making more Munchkin games and spin-offs.  "Munchkin Monopoly" anyone?  They wouldn't have created a deluxe version of Ogre that they lost money on, they wouldn't have re-published Car Wars (or be working on a new Car Wars edition) and they certainly wouldn't be working on GURPS.

They do these things because Steve Jackson loves them.  They may not always do them correctly, but they keep trying anyway.

Quote from: jcfiala;919544They do these things because Steve Jackson loves them.  They may not always do them correctly, but they keep trying anyway.

He's pretty tight-lipped, but he more or less says this as directly as he ever does in the interview I did with him (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2014/09/gaming-ballistics-firing-squad-welcomes.html).

Quote from: trechriron;919450That's not what I meant. It should bring more of the unique strengths of GURPS and showcase how to gradually ramp it up; how to incorporate various resources and options from the vast library. It should have cultures, and languages, and social engineering and the lot as things you add in as the adventure progresses. It should be a serious setting with dynamic and rich details that start simple (the little town you live in) and grow in scope across an example campaign.

Instead they are pitching an "engine" replacement for D&D. Not a unique game rolled and inspired from GURPS. D&D already has attracted a ton of people back into the hobby with 5e. GURPS would be like the polar-opposite as far as system is concerned. (note that I have played/GM'ed a ton of 4e and own nearly the entire DF line...)

Worse, there are hardcover books announced that "won't be profitable" enough to produce. So they sit while we toss 100k at SJGames to make D&D GURPS.

It is quite obvious what SJGames cares about. Money. Period. It's like watching a nerd-version of Josey and the Pussycats. "D&D is the new black!"

Except in the end you can't jam a boxed-set of GURPS into a magic-machine and get D&D out on the other side. There are probably a dozen things that would improve the play-ability, marketability, and usability of GURPS. This is not one of them. I'm sure they will make their target. In contrast, Monte Cook games just topped 500k on their new hotness! I wonder if we dreamed big instead of "1980's" what amazing piles of cash we could get from a Kickstarter making GURPS the new hotness? SJGames will never know.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and as always, if this thing turns you on, you should do it BABY! /Austin Powers. I'm just calling a spade a spade. It's another missed opportunity in a string of questionable business decisions regarding GURPS. I no longer have a horse in the race. I've tossed my $1000 at them already (which obviously made no impression whatsoever... HAH). I'm tired of the hard sell and hardship of making this beast work at the table. This boxed set is not going to change that.

Have fun!

GURPS already has products with all of those things. I know over on the official forums and on GURPS twitter there are a lot of discussions about how to introduce people to GURPS that are new to GURPS and I always settled on the side of the folks that want box sets around specific themes (Fantasy, Supers, Action, Etc) because due to the fact that GURPS is a toolkit learning how to play something Powered by GURPS is a hop, skip, and a little jump away from playing full GURPS. Especially if there are new physical GURPS products coming out. I'm sure there will be a product that is designed to bridge the new folks into the full ine on e23.

Quote from: Ulairi;919780GURPS already has products with all of those things. I know over on the official forums and on GURPS twitter there are a lot of discussions about how to introduce people to GURPS that are new to GURPS and I always settled on the side of the folks that want box sets around specific themes (Fantasy, Supers, Action, Etc) because due to the fact that GURPS is a toolkit learning how to play something Powered by GURPS is a hop, skip, and a little jump away from playing full GURPS. Especially if there are new physical GURPS products coming out. I'm sure there will be a product that is designed to bridge the new folks into the full ine on e23.

GURPS does have a lot of product. The issue is that most of it is out of print and usually predates the current edition.

Speaking of out of print, I wish we could have another go at GURPS World of Darkness, either Classic or New. But given how the first attempt in the 90's ended badly with a horrible falling out between SJG and White Wolf, it's not going to happen.

And now that White Wolf is in the hands of a petulant and childish Goth dickhead named Martin Ericsson, I'm sort of glad it's not going to happen. If White Wolf was difficult to deal with for Steve Jackson back when White Wolf was still good and produced quality product, imagine how they'd be under the current Paradox Interactive/Martin Ericsson regime, or even Justin Achilli's reign of terror during Revised Edition back in the very early 2000's.


I still wish we could have had a GURPS Vampire: The Requiem though. Or at least finished and released companions for GURPS Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Mage: The Ascension.

Back to topic, I think a physical release of GURPS Dungeon World that comes with GURPS Lite instead of relying on the Basic Set would be a good way to revive the GURPS brand.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919867GURPS does have a lot of product. The issue is that most of it is out of print and usually predates the current edition.

Speaking of out of print, I wish we could have another go at GURPS World of Darkness, either Classic or New. But given how the first attempt in the 90's ended badly with a horrible falling out between SJG and White Wolf, it's not going to happen.

What the story on that, I never did learn why the line died. I found a lot of use for it myself.

NM I found it myself on usenet.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/io.games.sjg.gurps/iHKkYIFKH_A

Quote from: estar;919869What the story on that, I never did learn why the line died. I found a lot of use for it myself.

Nobody truly knows other than the people who were working at SJG and White Wolf back in 1994. Both sides have glaringly contradictory stories on the falling out and nobody knows exactly what happened or which side is telling the truth.

If you're down under SJG now have a cheaper shipping arrangement (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1683323) in place for you.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;919867GURPS does have a lot of product. The issue is that most of it is out of print and usually predates the current edition.

Speaking of out of print, I wish we could have another go at GURPS World of Darkness, either Classic or New. But given how the first attempt in the 90's ended badly with a horrible falling out between SJG and White Wolf, it's not going to happen.


I still wish we could have had a GURPS Vampire: The Requiem though. Or at least finished and released companions for GURPS Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Mage: The Ascension.

Back to topic, I think a physical release of GURPS Dungeon World that comes with GURPS Lite instead of relying on the Basic Set would be a good way to revive the GURPS brand.

Most of the product is available in PDF, as for hard copy if this box and the 2 new physical books sell we may see some reprints.
As for WotC conversions fan one are out there and a lot of the heavy work has been done so making your own is possible. But yeah I seriously dont see another official attempt made with that company.

One other thing the DF box is not using GURPS lite.  Its trimmed down to make it simpler and less all encompassing than the Basic set but its a lot more powerful than Lite.

The project has now funded, and as a bonus all W23 sales in September will count towards the stretch goals, too (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1683838).

Quote from: dbm;920061The project has now funded, and as a bonus all W23 sales in September will count towards the stretch goals, too (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1683838).

Yay! I'm really happy to see this get funded and hope it pumps some new life into the system.

OK. I backed it. I know I will regret it later if I didn't.

Quote from: trechriron;920088OK. I backed it. I know I will regret it later if I didn't.

Welcome to the Dark Side muahahaha, OK enough of the evil laugh. It still GURPS and still adds on top of everything you got.

Is it hard to do small print jobs for products as lush as GURPS 4e book? Seems like these days you can do fairly small print jobs, but maybe not with the hard bindings and glossy color pages? Seems it'd make sense to re-print anything that sold out, as long as the runs were small enough, otherwise.

I've been looking at binding and printing solutions for my store.  It'd be great to get rid of shipping costs.  The problem is that you can only make money on the printing itself. You can get a decent laser printer and a tabletop binding system for as little as $1000.  But to the best of my knowledge there isn't a retailer solution for selling .pdfs.  Most'll let you charge for the printing but the margin isn't great.  The other problem is that it's just more low paying work for me to do.

Quote from: Skarg;920214Is it hard to do small print jobs for products as lush as GURPS 4e book? Seems like these days you can do fairly small print jobs, but maybe not with the hard bindings and glossy color pages? Seems it'd make sense to re-print anything that sold out, as long as the runs were small enough, otherwise.

Printing benefits from economies of scale.  So small print runs tend to cost more per book than larger ones.
LuLu and other places will do print runs for individuals and I hear decent things about them.

Quote from: DouglasCole;919777He's pretty tight-lipped, but he more or less says this as directly as he ever does in the interview I did with him (http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/2014/09/gaming-ballistics-firing-squad-welcomes.html).

thanks for the link.

Quote from: estar;919869What the story on that, I never did learn why the line died. I found a lot of use for it myself.

NM I found it myself on usenet.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/io.games.sjg.gurps/iHKkYIFKH_A

Thanks for the link.

Quote from: estar;919869What the story on that, I never did learn why the line died. I found a lot of use for it myself.

NM I found it myself on usenet.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/io.games.sjg.gurps/iHKkYIFKH_A

Oh sweet Jesus, the bad memories.  Now I'm going to remember the "Fallout: A GURPS Post-nuclear Adventure" mess.  Dang you Estar, dang you to Heck!

The KS has just hit their third stretch goal, meaning a second starter dungeon in PDF for all backers at $50 or above (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1687343).

Quote from: dbm;920898The KS has just hit their third stretch goal, meaning a second starter dungeon in PDF for all backers at $50 or above (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1687343).

Also, they've added the Cardboard Heroes pdfs to the $250 level.

It's getting close to the next stretch goal, which will be a PDF of more magic items.

That's all fine, but I don't give a shit about pdf's for this product. I already own 10 billion pages worth of gurps writing and I never use gaming pdfs; for me, the interesting thing about this product is that it takes a step back toward the original design of TFT, with its concrete table-top board game elements. I'll get jazzed when they do more of that, a'la Ogre and Car Wars.

In the modern market place that seems to be the way to go.  Pick up and play out of the box with minimal prep.  That's probably going to build a stronger customer base if they get around to doing space opera and superheroes.  I guess that's one thing I really should say. I'm so glad they didn't use an obscure or third rate property for this.  There's great stuff out there sure but you narrow your customer base if nobody's heard of the property.

They might not achieve a million dollars but I suspect the profit margin is decent.

So this may bring us the hope GURPS fans have needed.

I suppose we all have to buy Mars Attacks and Disc World too.

Oh well.

As long as it leads to some core reprints and maybe a core book or two that would fill in the gaps.

Big books of vehicle and animal stats mostly.

I desperately want Vehicle Design but I can accept that it will be pdf or possibly spreadsheet file only.

Quote from: David Johansen;921485So this may bring us the hope GURPS fans have needed.

I suppose we all have to buy Mars Attacks and Disc World too.

Oh well.

As long as it leads to some core reprints and maybe a core book or two that would fill in the gaps.

It wasn't exactly marketing genius to have SJG telling the fans they have to pre-order these two uninspiring products (about 20 years too late for relevance) in order to get more GURPS...but I guess that's what it means to be a GURPS fan. It's better than donating due to a "Crisis of Treachery".

Disc World has a pretty huge fan base as these things go.  Maybe Mars Attacks does too.  Maybe enough fans who are just happy to get some kind of outside media support.  Though I know there are big, full color guide books to the Disc World available at the book store so that's a niche that's already filled.

Personally, a generic fantasy all in one book would have been the best solution.  Setting, rules, and all.  But Disc World is a slap stick comedy.  The stories are fun but I'm not sure I could stand more than a session or two.

Dungeon Fantasy is okay I guess.  I'd have preferred something else.  Oh well, it's an experiment.  An experiment with too many variables to clearly prove anything but there you go.

I worry that they'll say, "Well, it didn't bring in a million dollars, obviously print rpgs are dead."  I don't know where SJG's benchmarks or expectations are.  I can tell you they weren't willing to even produce this if it didn't bring in 100k.  Oh, I'm sure a pdf would have turned up eventually because the writing work was already done.

Quote from: David Johansen;921500Disc World has a pretty huge fan base as these things go.  Maybe Mars Attacks does too.

I've no interest in Disc World but Mars Attacks looks fun, especially if I can play it as an alien invasion horror game along the lines of those old 50s B-movies... in keeping with the original card series rather than Burton's comedy take on it. Probably better for a series of one-shots than a long campaign though.

Quote from: Simlasa;921513I've no interest in Disc World but Mars Attacks looks fun, especially if I can play it as an alien invasion horror game along the lines of those old 50s B-movies... in keeping with the original card series rather than Burton's comedy take on it. Probably better for a series of one-shots than a long campaign though.

Check out GURPS Atomic Horror for third edition. Its been out of print forever but you can still get the pdf I think.

I, for one, have zero interest in Discworld and only mild interest in Mars Attacks, but man, I sure would like to see some core reprints: Powers, Martial Arts, etc. Yes, I know I have their explicit permission to print my own copy via Lulu or whoever if I purchase the pdf, but that's just kind of a pain for me. And don't get me wrong, I like pdfs and all, but I don't own a tablet or anything and I can't stand trying to sit at my computer and read. I like to have pdfs (stored safely on an external hard drive) as a sort of "back up" for my books, just in case of catastrophic computer failure, house fire, crazed junkie stealing and re-selling my books for more of that sweet, sweet crack, what have you. I much prefer having a physical book in my hand. I hope that the apparent success of this kickstarter (and hopefully subsequent sales) gets them to fire up and reprint the 4e line. Or at the very least set up their own PoD system or something. I mean, they'd have hit the next stretch goal from Warehouse 23 sales just from me alone if I could order print/pdf combos of their entire 4e line, not to mention a bunch of 3e stuff I'd like to get, too. :P

I'd like to see an evergreen core set kept in print including the basic set, all three Tech books, Magic, Powers, Vehicles, and Martial Arts.

I wouldn't mind a restructuring where Space and Fantasy included stuff like space ships and lots of monster templates.  I'm not saying they aren't good books but when a person wants to get into GURPS and play a fantasy game they might want a FANTASY book that actually contains the things they need to play fantasy.  Space is even worse in this regard.  But a Dungeon Fantasy boxed set and Space Opera boxed set would do a lot to close that gap.

Well hopefully the three items all do well enough to show theres a string desire for printed product and new material.
But its silly to expect them to reprint old books if they cant be sure to sell enough of them to justify print runs.

Another stretch goal about to be hit, and several more announced. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/description)

And another stretch goal achieved (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1694834). Just two left on the ladder.

Eight hours to go and another stretch goal hit... (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps/posts/1694834)

I upped to retailer + one set for myself today.  More than I can afford this month.  I wish there was a retailer level on the companion.  Oh well, it show up on the distributor pre-order list and I'll get it then.  That's got a big influence on SJG's decision process too.

I wish there was a better retailer level for Mutant Chronicles Siege of the Citadel eight copies is just too much.

Quote from: David Johansen;921500Disc World has a pretty huge fan base as these things go.  Maybe Mars Attacks does too.  Maybe enough fans who are just happy to get some kind of outside media support.  Though I know there are big, full color guide books to the Disc World available at the book store so that's a niche that's already filled.

Personally, a generic fantasy all in one book would have been the best solution.  Setting, rules, and all.  But Disc World is a slap stick comedy.  The stories are fun but I'm not sure I could stand more than a session or two.

Dungeon Fantasy is okay I guess.  I'd have preferred something else.  Oh well, it's an experiment.  An experiment with too many variables to clearly prove anything but there you go.

I worry that they'll say, "Well, it didn't bring in a million dollars, obviously print rpgs are dead."  I don't know where SJG's benchmarks or expectations are.  I can tell you they weren't willing to even produce this if it didn't bring in 100k.  Oh, I'm sure a pdf would have turned up eventually because the writing work was already done.

I have the Discworld book from 3rd edition and I'll be getting the 4th edition book but I don't think I'll ever run it. I like it on the shelf because I'm a fan of the novels and if I ever had a chance to do a one shot, it might be kind of fun.

Quote from: refplace;921799Well hopefully the three items all do well enough to show theres a string desire for printed product and new material.
But its silly to expect them to reprint old books if they cant be sure to sell enough of them to justify print runs.

Sure, but I'd like to see sales back to where they could.

What we've shown is that there are 1587 people who are willing to pay an average of $111.18 for a new GURPS Dungeon Fantasy product.  I'm not sure where their expectations are but I'll bet Munchkin has a customer base of at least ten times that.  It's hard to know what this means to them.  I'm pretty sure they didn't structure the kickstarter to shoot up to a million dollars.  If they had they'd have had the space opera and supers boxes as stretch goals.  So I'm not sure what their expectations were.  I would guess they were fairly sure they could get the $100000 or they wouldn't have had it written in the first place.

So, that makes me wonder how successful it really was.  I think the telling thing will be retailer pre-orders.  Which is tricky when the retailers might balk at something that came off of kickstarter or have ordered it on kickstarter.  I think the thing for us fans to do will be make a lot of Dungeon Fantasy noise as the shipping date approaches.  It's fine to do it now but it would be better of the excitement to come as the product is about to be released.

Quote from: David Johansen;922836Sure, but I'd like to see sales back to where they could.

What we've shown is that there are 1587 people who are willing to pay an average of $111.18 for a new GURPS Dungeon Fantasy product.  I'm not sure where their expectations are but I'll bet Munchkin has a customer base of at least ten times that.  It's hard to know what this means to them.  I'm pretty sure they didn't structure the kickstarter to shoot up to a million dollars.  If they had they'd have had the space opera and supers boxes as stretch goals.  So I'm not sure what their expectations were.  I would guess they were fairly sure they could get the $100000 or they wouldn't have had it written in the first place.

So, that makes me wonder how successful it really was.  I think the telling thing will be retailer pre-orders.  Which is tricky when the retailers might balk at something that came off of kickstarter or have ordered it on kickstarter.  I think the thing for us fans to do will be make a lot of Dungeon Fantasy noise as the shipping date approaches.  It's fine to do it now but it would be better of the excitement to come as the product is about to be released.

Also if the retail sales of Discworld and Mars Attacks are good or not will likely influence preorders on the boxed set.
I agree, they likely had high confidence or why have Sean write it in the first place. But confidence can be wrong so it was a gamble I hope they won.

Quote from: refplace;922839Also if the retail sales of Discworld and Mars Attacks are good or not will likely influence preorders on the boxed set.
I agree, they likely had high confidence or why have Sean write it in the first place. But confidence can be wrong so it was a gamble I hope they won.

Well, at least for the immediate gamble, I think they did.  After the experience with Ogre, they've been ultra-careful with their kickstarters, and I'm sure if the project hadn't funded, that would have been a gamble they would have failed.  (Although I suspect it would have become a pdf set at least, to work on recouping costs.)

I'm excited to see what comes out - personally I backed at $50, with an additional $20 for the printed companion.

https://www.facebook.com/sjgames/videos/10155191345301007/

They posted a video to their FB page of an unboxing of the set. Looks pretty sweet. I love me boxed sets.

Mars Attacks is also now available in PDF for people who prefer that. PK explains part of the reasoning for writing the book here:SJG post (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=2103878&postcount=1)

TL;DR - the game concept covers a huge range of power levels and technology levels, making it a great example of the versatility of GURPS

Dungeon crawling is close to the very last thing I'd run GURPS for.

Quote from: RPGPundit;968387Dungeon crawling is close to the very last thing I'd run GURPS for.

GURPS is just like playing a computer RPG, only without the computer. The GM gets to role-play being a computer for the players.

The first edition of GURPS was very obviously designed to compete with D&D, and it did alright. But then they decided to "improve" it by adding things to it and making it more complex, and it eventually became unpopular to play (though still had and has plenty of collectors) as a result.

Much like D&D, really.

I came late to the party. I "discovered" GURPS 2 years ago and after reading the book I was amazed with the rules system, it's coherent, elegant and very adaptable. It can be played as a simple skilled based like BRP or you can go crazy adding stuff you like. Running dungeon crawling & fantasy with it was a piece of cake for me and I read the book once. I definately recommend people to give Dungeon Fantasy book a chance when it comes out.

Quote from: John Scott;968455I came late to the party. I "discovered" GURPS 2 years ago and after reading the book I was amazed with the rules system, it's coherent, elegant and very adaptable. It can be played as a simple skilled based like BRP or you can go crazy adding stuff you like. Running dungeon crawling & fantasy with it was a piece of cake for me and I read the book once. I definately recommend people to give Dungeon Fantasy book a chance when it comes out.

That's good to hear. I'm curious what edition you started with.

As someone who started GURPS at the beginning already having played its ancestor TFT for years, I have no problems running GURPS, though the 4e Basic Set seems overly stuffed full of stuff that's mostly noise to me.

I also think it's actually best at medieval combat and great for fantasy-medieval, though I don't really like many D&D-style monsters or the D&D power curve, so while I welcome Dungeon Fantasy, I would tend to not use the amped-up D&D-like aspects of it and instead continue to use what's usable for closer-to-TFT-model play.

GURPS is a great game system that is also its own worst enemy. It is hard to imagine a better 'generic' rpg engine, but no matter what you ask it to do, you'll find it also does 900 other things that you have to wade through to get what you want. This is why I'd say GURPS is a better fantasy combat and magic 'engine' than TFT when you break them both down to their elementary gears and knobs, but if I'm going to grab a game to play in that genre it is TFT every time. It is worth having some wonky organization and a couple of goofy rules to be able to work from a couple of magazine-sized booklets instead of a library of rules-filled tomes.

Quote from: Skarg;968506That's good to hear. I'm curious what edition you started with.

As someone who started GURPS at the beginning already having played its ancestor TFT for years, I have no problems running GURPS, though the 4e Basic Set seems overly stuffed full of stuff that's mostly noise to me.

I also think it's actually best at medieval combat and great for fantasy-medieval, though I don't really like many D&D-style monsters or the D&D power curve, so while I welcome Dungeon Fantasy, I would tend to not use the amped-up D&D-like aspects of it and instead continue to use what's usable for closer-to-TFT-model play.

I have the latest 4th edition and a friend of mine also bought the 3d edition from ebay. It's our favorite medieval/fantasy game, we really appreciate its flexibility as a rules system, the xp and the advancement rules, the role playing involved in the adv/dis and the dynamic combat. I think that its greatest strength as a system is that you can adapt it to your gaming needs, the options will be always there if you need them. You don't like skills, you can roll attributes for example like original D&D does or you can use a broad skill!, you want combat with options and critical tables or you'd like a simple roll hit/miss, and a ton of other stuff you can add or remove without breaking a sweat. I think that its safe to say that its the closest thing i would have taken with me for my rpg needs if i was a castaway!

Quote from: RPGPundit;968387Dungeon crawling is close to the very last thing I'd run GURPS for.

Because...?

And what would you use GURPS for?

Quote from: Skarg;968506That's good to hear. I'm curious what edition you started with.

As someone who started GURPS at the beginning already having played its ancestor TFT for years, I have no problems running GURPS, though the 4e Basic Set seems overly stuffed full of stuff that's mostly noise to me.

I also think it's actually best at medieval combat and great for fantasy-medieval, though I don't really like many D&D-style monsters or the D&D power curve, so while I welcome Dungeon Fantasy, I would tend to not use the amped-up D&D-like aspects of it and instead continue to use what's usable for closer-to-TFT-model play.

I also played TFT and started with First Edition, though I owned Man to Man and Orcslayer.
It seems to me it is about a complex and inclusive as the original system but Third Edition suffered from skill bloat and making new advantages for various settings.
Fourth Edition addressed that by expanding and cleaning up the framework from wich abilities are built.

As for the 'noise' you mention by being useful for all genres there is a lot in the Basic set that will be wasted if your only interested in one genre.
So if you like Fantasy the Sci Fi and possibly even Horror and Social sections may be useless to you.
The point of the DFRPG is to create a standalone system using the same rules that cuts it down to the stuff you only want for the dungeon delver subgenre.
If it sells well they will do others for different genres.

Quote from: Larsdangly;968510GURPS is a great game system that is also its own worst enemy. It is hard to imagine a better 'generic' rpg engine, but no matter what you ask it to do, you'll find it also does 900 other things that you have to wade through to get what you want. This is why I'd say GURPS is a better fantasy combat and magic 'engine' than TFT when you break them both down to their elementary gears and knobs, but if I'm going to grab a game to play in that genre it is TFT every time. It is worth having some wonky organization and a couple of goofy rules to be able to work from a couple of magazine-sized booklets instead of a library of rules-filled tomes.

GURPS is cool. I have 3rd edition and maybe a dozen of those awesome sourcebooks. I can't see ever playing GURPS again simply because I just want a game ready to be played instead of sifting through a generic game to build my own out of the various options. Like you, I'll just play The Fantasy Trip if I want a fantasy game. However, the sourcebooks are something I have come back to over and over again. "How to be French" from GURPS Swashbucklers, as well as other ideas in that book, carried over into my Flashing Blades game.

Will Mars Attacks! be as cool as this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1058[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Dumarest;968554Will Mars Attacks! be as cool as this?

Better...
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/dan_martland/IMG_0294_zps9ilmscxb.jpeg)

As long as it's better than this:

I liked the movie a lot, actually, but for a game I'm much more interested in the vibe of the original horror cards. So that's looking cool to me.

Quote from: Simlasa;968635I liked the movie a lot, actually, but for a game I'm much more interested in the vibe of the original horror cards. So that's looking cool to me.

To be fair, it covers a range of games from deadly serious to camp crazy, but that's kind of the design goal.

Quote from: Dumarest;968550Because...?

And what would you use GURPS for?

Because it's just too technical and dull for the kind of thing dungeoneering is for.

I'd use GURPS for RP-heavy low-power-level historical or modern gaming.  I ran a Scarlet Pimpernel game, a Prisoner game, a Musketeers game, and a couple of Illuminati games with it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;969931I'd use GURPS for RP-heavy low-power-level historical or modern gaming.  I ran a Scarlet Pimpernel game...a Musketeers game...

And you didn't invite me? :mad: ;) Did you use the GURPS Age of Napoleon or Swashbucklers  books at all?

Edit: Coincidentally, this past weekend I watched the 1982 Scarlet Pimpernel with Anthony Andrews, Jane Seymour, and Ian McKellen. Pretty good but could have used more action/swordfights.

Quote from: Dumarest;969941And you didn't invite me? :mad: ;) Did you use the GURPS Age of Napoleon or Swashbucklers  books at all?

Yes. GURPS Swashbucklers, which I felt was a very good sourcebook.  Anyways, all this was literally decades ago.

Quote from: RPGPundit;970444Yes. GURPS Swashbucklers, which I felt was a very good sourcebook.  Anyways, all this was literally decades ago.

That still doesn't explain my invitation not arriving...

Fnord.

Another tangential bit of news: SJG have just added Martial Arts, Powers and a couple of NPC collections to their library of POD offerings. (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ondemand/)

SJG really do seem to be making a big push on getting GURPS back to being a visibly supported system again.

Quote from: dbm;971211Another tangential bit of news: SJG have just added Martial Arts, Powers and a couple of NPC collections to their library of POD offerings. (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ondemand/)

SJG really do seem to be making a big push on getting GURPS back to being a visibly supported system again.

More likely something happened to convince Steve Jackson that free money is better than his irrational hatred of his own RPG products.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971214More likely something happened to convince Steve Jackson that free money is better than his irrational hatred of his own RPG products.

It not irrational.

Dollars made by board games and Munchkin
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dollars made by GURPS
$

Now I concur with your sentiment given what resources they do put into it they have not made the best choices. The biggest issue is that for the most part with a few exceptions the line has ossified creatively. I know some of the authors and while they do put in their best work for individual products the overall direction has remained static.

The Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter hopefully will shake things up enough.

Something is brewing. Dr Kromm hinted at something interesting  in his blog (http://dr-kromm.livejournal.com/204994.html)

"The bulk of my personal work this week was seriously behind the scenes . . . I cannot talk about the two biggest things except to say they're not writing projects but more in the vein of support."

Wild speculation here, but maybe there is finally going to be some kind of creator community for GURPS?

Quote from: estar;971218Dollars made by board games and Munchkin
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dollars made by GURPS
$

To be fair, their efforts are in similar proportions :)

Quote from: dbm;971220Something is brewing. Dr Kromm hinted at something interesting  in his blog (http://dr-kromm.livejournal.com/204994.html)

Wild speculation here, but maybe there is finally going to be some kind of creator community for GURPS?

Hopefully I been a bit of a gadfly about it ever since the advent of the DM's Guild laid out an alternative to a open content license.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;971223To be fair, their efforts are in similar proportions :)

I know right?  Just sayin' SJG's prophecy is more than a little self-fulfilling.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971233I know right?  Just sayin' SJG's prophecy is more than a little self-fulfilling.

I think this is more a case of SJG adapting to the reality. WotC make more money from a card game than RPGs, so SJG is hardly an outliner here.

If you make an effort it may work. If you make no effort, it certainly won't work.

I'm wondering if this new version of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy sells well enough, will we see a GURPS 5e?

I'd like to see another edition of GURPS, one more similar to 2e or 3e than 4e (nothing wrong with 4e, but I prefer 3e), one that isn't quite as bloated and can serve as a fresh start for the GURPS franchise. Perhaps if SJG does an Open License or something similar to the DM's Guild, that could open up a lot of possibilities if SJG ever were to make a GURPS 5e.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;971246I'm wondering if this new version of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy sells well enough, will we see a GURPS 5e?

I'd like to see another edition of GURPS, one more similar to 2e or 3e than 4e (nothing wrong with 4e, but I prefer 3e), one that isn't quite as bloated and can serve as a fresh start for the GURPS franchise. Perhaps if SJG does an Open License or something similar to the DM's Guild, that could open up a lot of possibilities if SJG ever were to make a GURPS 5e.

My view the problem with GURPS has been one of presentation not rules. You could play GURPS Combat with all the maneuvers and techniques found in Basic and Martial Art or you could play it as a single opposed rolls. GURPS is designed to handle either level of complexity. The problem as I see it is that the Core books are presented as design tool to help you make a GURPS campaign. As a tool the expectation is that you will be using it to make all the stuff. There is virtually no ready to run material thoughout the GURPS lines that is up to the standards of other competing RPGs. That is until the Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter.

So everybody know the latest Pyramid (http://www.warehouse23.com/products/pyramid-number-3-slash-104-dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game) has a preview of the Dungeon Fantasy RPG including a solo adventure and a character to use on the advenute.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;971242If you make an effort it may work. If you make no effort, it certainly won't work.

True, but on the other hand it makes more sense to put your money and effort into a sure thing with a high rate of return than something with a low rate of return.
I am just glad they are willing to spend the money on 3 staffers for the line.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;971246I'm wondering if this new version of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy sells well enough, will we see a GURPS 5e?

I'd like to see another edition of GURPS, one more similar to 2e or 3e than 4e (nothing wrong with 4e, but I prefer 3e), one that isn't quite as bloated and can serve as a fresh start for the GURPS franchise. Perhaps if SJG does an Open License or something similar to the DM's Guild, that could open up a lot of possibilities if SJG ever were to make a GURPS 5e.

I dont see a 5E anytime soon. The next edition is likely to be a database driven app.  That costs too much money at current production so would be a huge gamble.
I doubt it is an Open Source project, I really dont think that makes a lot of sense. They already use a lot of freelancers, its the editing bottleneck that slows things down and without the high quality editing it would damage the brand value.
A clearly labeled off brand might dissipate that somewhat but I wonder if there would be enough quality writing out there to make it worth it.

Quote from: estar;971269My view the problem with GURPS has been one of presentation not rules. You could play GURPS Combat with all the maneuvers and techniques found in Basic and Martial Art or you could play it as a single opposed rolls. GURPS is designed to handle either level of complexity. The problem as I see it is that the Core books are presented as design tool to help you make a GURPS campaign. As a tool the expectation is that you will be using it to make all the stuff. There is virtually no ready to run material throughout the GURPS lines that is up to the standards of other competing RPGs. That is until the Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter.

I agree.  GURPS was designed as a modular rule set from the ground up.  That makes it very easy to add only what you want.  Many rules can even be added and dropped withing the same campaign without having to rewrite your characters.
GURPS Discworld is I think the first Powered by GURPS item for Fourth Edition, certainly the first one in a long time.
Dungeon Fantasy Role Playing Game is another standalone but compatible with the main rules item.
More items along that line would be awesome.

The thing about GURPS is that I already have 3rd edition and a bunch of good sourcebooks and there's just no way I'd ever spend the money to buy new versions for another edition. Not that I have the money. I imagine I'm not alone in that. So I can see why there may not be a lot of time and effort invested by Steve Jackson Games when there is more money to be made elsewhere. I don't have any data, so I'm just guessing. I also think it's a similar situation to what Hero Games did with its suicidal 6th edition. I gather a lot of gamers just said, dang, I already have this library of material...

Or maybe I'm just the odd man out but I don't see many games I feel the need to buy when I already have an earlier version that works fine for my needs. Could be, since it seems everybody else on this forum is outlaying money for the latest D&D edition.

I agree. As much as I like 4th there was really nothing wrong with 3rd and SJG cut off one of their biggest assets (great library) when they dumped 3rd for 4th, they should have just included the errata, updated the looks and kept going with 3rd.

I agree too, mostly. 4e has a few things I consider improvements, but I already had most of those in my 3e house rules. 4e also makes some changes I don't like, and I like my house rule versions of the changes a bit better in several cases than the 4e version.

3e and 4e stuff is largely interchangeable, but not entirely, which does seem to me like a bit of an annoyance/hassle/waste. One can convert anything fairly easily if one knows what one's doing, but GURPS' main issue already, IMO, is the steep curve to really be proficient as a GM and/or be ready to play quickly. The 4e Basic Set and its differences from 3e still discourage me. Also the changes to skill and attribute costs, which I don't like and mess with the meanings of values between versions, which seems rather annoying to me. But 4e and 3e are both really very solid IMO and there really doesn't seem to be much need at all for a 5e, AFAIK. What there could stand to be would be more "powered by GURPS" books and adventures that are ready to play and have only setting-relevant info with no reams of irrelevant stuff to do anything in any setting. Though the main thing I actually want, as always, is new well-designed playtested rules systems for various typical but underdeveloped types of action, such as more detailed stealth rules, tactical vehicle combat rules, climbing rules, sailing rules, etc. Stuff like that has been getting slowly but steadily published in Pyramid and various PDF supplements etc., which is cool. People say GURPS is not well supported, but there's more stuff than most people would ever use, much of it really well done, if what you want is rational and detailed rules for all kinds of stuff at various levels of detail, to make your own setting with. What's "unsupported" is wanting to have lots of stuff ready to buy & play.

Yah, I'm a life-long fan of things by Steve Jackson, but totally bailed on 4E. It just seemed so pointless, given that 3E has a massive library and the core game system really didn't have any reason to change in any significant way.

A coach called Dan John said, never write your own advertising copy: ask your best, long-term clients, "why do you come?" and whatever their answer, however much it might surprise you, that's your appeal. Even if you want your appeal to be something else, that's what it is, so roll with it. I think the same applies to RPGs.

People have mentioned the massive library of worldbooks GURPS3e had. And that was their appeal. Even people who didn't play GURPS bought them. They said, "No, it's not the worldbooks, it's our wonderful modular rules," and people said, "No, it's your worldbooks," and they said, "No, ROOLZ!" and changed the rules and stopped writing worldbooks, and fans didn't buy the rules, and they said, "See? Nobody wants to play RPGs these days."

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;971506A coach called Dan John said, never write your own advertising copy: ask your best, long-term clients, "why do you come?" and whatever their answer, however much it might surprise you, that's your appeal. Even if you want your appeal to be something else, that's what it is, so roll with it. I think the same applies to RPGs.

People have mentioned the massive library of worldbooks GURPS3e had. And that was their appeal. Even people who didn't play GURPS bought them. They said, "No, it's not the worldbooks, it's our wonderful modular rules," and people said, "No, it's your worldbooks," and they said, "No, ROOLZ!" and changed the rules and stopped writing worldbooks, and fans didn't buy the rules, and they said, "See? Nobody wants to play RPGs these days."

Sounds about right. I use my GURPS sourcebooks for other game systems far more often than I use them to actually play GURPS.

I expect their sales numbers said rules not world books.  I also suspect qualified writers for world books were less available.

SJ has always been pretty savvy about the business side of this business. I don't know why they did what they did with 4E, but I'll bet it wasn't because the 3E setting books were making a lot of money. They probably take quite a while to write and only sell a few thousand copies.

Quote from: Larsdangly;971524SJ has always been pretty savvy about the business side of this business. I don't know why they did what they did with 4E, but I'll bet it wasn't because the 3E setting books were making a lot of money. They probably take quite a while to write and only sell a few thousand copies.

Could be. I neither know nor care. Every RPG company on the face of the earth could go out of business tonight and it won't affect next weekend's game for me. I just know I'd probably buy more books if they didn't stop supporting editions of games I own and use. But I also know I'm not the target audience for 99% of RPG products.

Quote from: Larsdangly;971524SJ has always been pretty savvy about the business side of this business. I don't know why they did what they did with 4E, but I'll bet it wasn't because the 3E setting books were making a lot of money. They probably take quite a while to write and only sell a few thousand copies.

My guess would be that they were following the industry standard as their competitors moved to full color hardbacks, so did they.  My understanding is that a major factor in this is the number of people who would download or photocopy books instead of buying them.  Full color books are harder to reproduce in black and white.  Now, way back in the day of the survey in the first edition boxed set I voted for cheaper, shorter world books.  The reality is that I've never had much money.  As a store owner I personally find that the big full color hardbacks really limit the sales of rpgs.  Savage Worlds, on the other hand does pretty well for me.

Quote from: David Johansen;971519I expect their sales numbers said rules not world books.  I also suspect qualified writers for world books were less available.

It's less that and more effort vs return. A worldbook takes as long to write and edit as a rulebook, but only so many people buy them. Added up all together it's big sales, but no individual worldbook will sell that much. Whereas you write one rulebook and (hope that) everyone will buy it.

It's a bit like a stack of tv series vs a movie version of some story. But despite $200 million movies, people are still making tv shows. If you do it well, you can be successful. They just decided not to bother any more.

Lately GURPS books have become TROPES books. Cut/Pastes from IMDB, Wiki, and others. Their older books make better source material than what comes with most RPGs.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;971607Lately GURPS books have become TROPES books. Cut/Pastes from IMDB, Wiki, and others. Their older books make better source material than what comes with most RPGs.

They have? Which are you thinking of?

I think the story of GURPS is the story of the hobby. They started with some great ideas and first edition systems ca. 1980, grew it all to a great height, but there is a pretty hard upper limit to growth if you are in the business of selling hard copy books to table top role playing gamers. The market will never die, but it is small with low profit margin, so it is basically dominated by hobbyists and companies that are happy to make a few tens of thousands of dollars. There really isn't a good financial reason to double down on publishing something like GURPS.

Quote from: Piestrio;971464I agree. As much as I like 4th there was really nothing wrong with 3rd and SJG cut off one of their biggest assets (great library) when they dumped 3rd for 4th, they should have just included the errata, updated the looks and kept going with 3rd.

The thing about Fourth Edition is it consolidated and streamlined a lot of things.  So it made GURPS simpler while still being mostly compatible with previous editions.
In my mind that is a legitimate reason to do another edition.  While a Fifth Edition could improve  some things I dont think it would be significant enough to encourage a lot of sales.
Things were improved in Third Edition, Attributes, Skills and Advantages ALL got some streamlining by changing point costs and things like Talents were added.  However the core advantage is the game is more streamlined and thus easier to pick up then prior editions.

As for cutting off the Third Edition material, not only are they compatible (Costs are the only thing you wold have to change, abilities could be just left in and combat had some changes but except for PD the change is fairly transparent.)
The DFRPG is another effort to streamline things by focusing on one genre only.

As for Edition changes GURPS still does well at not making them just to get cash infusions or because the rules were sloppy and had lots of complaints.
Compare D&D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons which seemed to come out with a new edition every 4 or 5 years vs. GURPS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS
 GURPS came out with editions in 1986 First and Second (I think Second was mostly the same rules with a new edition made to keep it in print), Third in 1988 and finally Fourth in 2004.
So Third Edition came out kind of soon but Fourth had a respectable time gap and is the current in print version to this day.

Quote from: David Johansen;971555My guess would be that they were following the industry standard as their competitors moved to full color hardbacks, so did they.  My understanding is that a major factor in this is the number of people who would download or photocopy books instead of buying them.  Full color books are harder to reproduce in black and white.  Now, way back in the day of the survey in the first edition boxed set I voted for cheaper, shorter world books.  The reality is that I've never had much money.  As a store owner I personally find that the big full color hardbacks really limit the sales of rpgs.  Savage Worlds, on the other hand does pretty well for me.

Another consideration is that most of the historical material has been well covered and with the internet those books have less value as people have an easier time looking stuff up.

On the other hand, I've always felt that 4e got build-happy and cluttered.  Power modifiers are used far too often for my tastes, though that does help to cut down the number of separate items and rules for specific abilities.  On the other hand it also makes cross referencing a constant pain in the ass.  But yes, I think fully integrated database GURPS would be the next logical step but with a line of boxed games like Dungeon Fantasy to keep the line on store shelves.

Is the entire run of 3e books available as PDF on the world's biggest rpg PDF seller?  Why?  They're just leaving money on the table for no good reason.  No one's got a back catalog like that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971722Is the entire run of 3e books available as PDF on the world's biggest rpg PDF seller?  Why?  They're just leaving money on the table for no good reason.  No one's got a back catalog like that.

1) SJ Games was a pioneer in e-commerce and Steve Jackson made some money off of a ISP called Illuminati Online.

2) Along the way they created a e-commerce store called e23 and later folded it into Warehouse 23.

The net result is that Steve Jackson has their own ecommerce solution for years and not about to pay OBS for something they already have going. Especially when they had theirs up and going five years prior to OBS's site.

Quote from: estar;9717231) SJ Games was a pioneer in e-commerce and Steve Jackson made some money off of a ISP called Illuminati Online.

2) Along the way they created a e-commerce store called e23 and later folded it into Warehouse 23.

The net result is that Steve Jackson has their own ecommerce solution for years and not about to pay OBS for something they already have going. Especially when they had theirs up and going five years prior to OBS's site.

Awesome.  Too bad no one on Earth who doesn't already know about GURPS knows about it. ;)

W23 doesn't carry the whole line of 3rd either.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971724Awesome.  Too bad no one on Earth who doesn't already know about GURPS knows about it. ;)

W23 doesn't have the complete line of 3rd books either.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971724Awesome.  Too bad no one on Earth who doesn't already know about GURPS knows about it. ;)

My guess eventually they will say fuck it and just start listing on OBS. A lot of the long time vendors on Warehouse 23 are starting to do that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971724W23 doesn't carry the whole line of 3rd either.

Manpower issues.

Everything explain by the fact they have X # of people and Munchkin and board games outsells everything else by several order magnitude. The main reason we see other major projects is because they know can't rely on Munchkin forever.

Quote from: estar;971729My guess eventually they will say fuck it and just start listing on OBS. A lot of the long time vendors on Warehouse 23 are starting to do that.



Manpower issues.

Everything explain by the fact they have X # of people and Munchkin and board games outsells everything else by several order magnitude. The main reason we see other major projects is because they know can't rely on Munchkin forever.

Hell, every single one has already been scanned by the pirates and the digital preservation crowd.  If they just asked for scanned pdfs they'd probably get HQ OCR'd ones ready to go.

Quote from: refplace;971711The thing about Fourth Edition is it consolidated and streamlined a lot of things.  So it made GURPS simpler while still being mostly compatible with previous editions.
In my mind that is a legitimate reason to do another edition.  While a Fifth Edition could improve  some things I dont think it would be significant enough to encourage a lot of sales.

This is all true. But in "consolidating" almost all of the possibly-useful stuff from all the worldbooks into the 4e Basic Set, they also made the Basic Set into two hardbacks where more than half of it is nothing I would usually use or want when starting to learn the system. Ideally I'd include only the truly generic non-special human stuff in the Basic Set like in previous editions, and then put the other stuff in focused genre expansions. Or, nowadays, I'd make a print-on-demand where I can click boxes on what stuff I want and what I don't want. THAT would be awesome, IMO.

QuoteThings were improved in Third Edition, Attributes, Skills and Advantages ALL got some streamlining by changing point costs and things like Talents were added.  However the core advantage is the game is more streamlined and thus easier to pick up then prior editions.

You must've meant to write Fourth Edition, not Third. It might be slightly easier to learn for those who find slight cost curves an obstacle, but I don't really like those changes. There were some improvements though, but also a couple other things I prefer the 3e version of. Fortunately, the editions are close enough that a GM who knows what they're doing can just use whatever mix of rules they like best, without invalidating very much, but if anyone made stats for characters with careful attention to getting the levels just the way they wanted, 4e does kind of mix that up that a bit.

QuoteAs for cutting off the Third Edition material, not only are they compatible (Costs are the only thing you wold have to change, abilities could be just left in and combat had some changes but except for PD the change is fairly transparent.)
The DFRPG is another effort to streamline things by focusing on one genre only.

As for Edition changes GURPS still does well at not making them just to get cash infusions or because the rules were sloppy and had lots of complaints.
Compare D&D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons which seemed to come out with a new edition every 4 or 5 years vs. GURPS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS

Yes.

QuoteGURPS came out with editions in 1986 First and Second (I think Second was mostly the same rules with a new edition made to keep it in print), Third in 1988 and finally Fourth in 2004.
So Third Edition came out kind of soon but Fourth had a respectable time gap and is the current in print version to this day.

Yes, Second Edition was almost the same as First Edition. Third Edition is also utterly compatible with 1st and 2nd, but it did a proper job of improving, refining, condensing and incorporating without changing anything that would throw off any characters from earlier editions.

Honestly, I'm still mad about the changes from second to third.  I mean, cardboard covers I can get behind.  A nice hardback fine.  The Speed / Range table and Snap Shot ratings and Advantage Bloat endlessly pushing the cost of making certain characters like knights higher without making them better fighters?  Not so much.

Quote from: David Johansen;971825Honestly, I'm still mad about the changes from second to third.  I mean, cardboard covers I can get behind.  A nice hardback fine.  The Speed / Range table and Snap Shot ratings and Advantage Bloat endlessly pushing the cost of making certain characters like knights higher without making them better fighters?  Not so much.

I'm not even sure 2E was any better than 1E. Or that either were better than 'Man to Man'. There are features of GURPS that I appreciate as specific rules improvements over The Fantasy Trip. But the whole thing degraded overall as a game system the more complicated and baroque it became.

No, the cardboard covers were a big improvement.

I started a project comparing differences between 1e and 2e, back about 1990, which I don't remember the details of, but there were not many differences. The only major one I remember is calculating Shield Block as 1/2 skill rather than 1/3 skill.

I think 3e did a good job making little but good improvements resulting in a more solid ruleset, but I can see preferring the original ranged combat and/or not wanting the extra advantages.

Dungeon Fantasy has arrived in PDF format for backers...

Let the reading commence!

Quote from: dbm;984670Dungeon Fantasy has arrived in PDF format for backers...

Let the reading commence!

Well, for backers who paid $35 extra to get the pdfs in addition to the books.  I'm fond of GURPS, but I wasn't about to pay $85 to get the same data twice.

Quote from: jcfiala;984719Well, for backers who paid $35 extra to get the pdfs in addition to the books.  I'm fond of GURPS, but I wasn't about to pay $85 to get the same data twice.

They charged extra for the PDF? Most of the hardcopy stuff I've bought lately has come with a PDF... if there is a PDF. Same for the Kickstarters I've done (which aren't many, TBH).

Quote from: Simlasa;984752They charged extra for the PDF? Most of the hardcopy stuff I've bought lately has come with a PDF... if there is a PDF. Same for the Kickstarters I've done (which aren't many, TBH).

Yeah, well - Steve Jackson Games.

Quote from: jcfiala;984760Yeah, well - Steve Jackson Games.

Forward thinking and behind the times at the same moment.

Quote from: estar;984769Forward thinking and behind the times at the same moment.

If someone will pay for it, someone will sell it. Not behind the times but rather evergreen.

I haven't read the whole thread, but is DF different than GURPS ("powered by GURPS" has a few tweaks IIRC)? Or just fewer options of skills, etc?

There is an e23 sale going on, BTW.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;985047I haven't read the whole thread, but is DF different than GURPS ("powered by GURPS" has a few tweaks IIRC)? Or just fewer options of skills, etc?

There is an e23 sale going on, BTW.

There are tweaks but the main differences are presentation not mechanics. For example for each professions there are several traits one could buy. They read like made up D&D style feats but they are really GURPS advantages with enhancements and limitations all pre-calculated and presented as it own thing.

I am currently reading it and still working on a more detailed review. However I can say that the way it presented is about the level of detail, stuff (spells monsters, etc, and organization as Mythras/Runequest 6. If you like what Mythras/Runequest 6 presented as a RPG, then the DF RPG will be up your alley. It definitely not the shopping list reference book that is the two GURPS Core Books.

Quote from: estar;985116There are tweaks but the main differences are presentation not mechanics. For example for each professions there are several traits one could buy. They read like made up D&D style feats but they are really GURPS advantages with enhancements and limitations all pre-calculated and presented as it own thing.

I am currently reading it and still working on a more detailed review. However I can say that the way it presented is about the level of detail, stuff (spells monsters, etc, and organization as Mythras/Runequest 6. If you like what Mythras/Runequest 6 presented as a RPG, then the DF RPG will be up your alley. It definitely not the shopping list reference book that is the two GURPS Core Books.

Thanks! TBH I am more of a GURPS guy than Mythras/Runequest 6, but I've stopped playing because of too many skills and options (and the use of the bell curve in combat which makes things a bit boring IMO). In any case, it sounds very interesting, and the "feats" solution seems like a good idea.