Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
I don't think complexity is an issue.  I do think distribution is.  Currently it's available on their website and Amazon.  I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores.

As an anecdote, it's at my local gaming store/pub. On top of the counter on display.
But I live in the pacific northwest, the pub is pretty vocal about it's "progressive" left leaning attitudes. (Pride flags, notices about how it's an "inclusive" store, "Gayme Night" (their wording)etc)
So I've seen it in hardcopy at the game store, but it's the kind of RPG I'd think this specific store would seek out to stock.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 04, 2022, 09:00:01 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM
I don't think complexity is an issue.  I do think distribution is.  Currently it's available on their website and Amazon.  I didn't see it at Barnes & Noble, and I haven't had a chance to go to multiple game stores.

As an anecdote, it's at my local gaming store/pub. On top of the counter on display.
But I live in the pacific northwest, the pub is pretty vocal about it's "progressive" left leaning attitudes. (Pride flags, notices about how it's an "inclusive" store, "Gayme Night" (their wording)etc)
So I've seen it in hardcopy at the game store, but it's the kind of RPG I'd think this specific store would seek out to stock.

  It was in my game store as well.  I have to go back and see if they have Savage pathfinder now that it has been released to stores, because IMO if they are stocking it and not SW pathfinder....they are just making bad choices.

I saw three copies at the convention (DragonCon) here, sitting on a vendor table. Don't know if there were any takers.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 05, 2022, 03:45:08 PM
I saw three copies at the convention (DragonCon) here, sitting on a vendor table. Don't know if there were any takers.

I saw it at a local game store in greater Atlanta this weekend, but they generally have a rack full of trendy stuff. It was on that.

I passed and bought the last two books I didn't have for Never Coming Home...well, passed implied I considered it which isn't quite true, but I did see it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes. 
...
Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large.  They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible.

I don't think complexity is an issue.  I do think distribution is.

To clarify, the rules mechanics aren't the main part of the learning curve. The biggest problem is in learning the background. It is a science fiction game where the PCs are educated members of a complex technological society, who also have psychic powers. The background is very densely written, describing a very unfamiliar world. None of the setting matches with familiar genres or history. As an example, if I were to run a chase scene in Cahokia, it seems very difficult to run. What sort of obstacles are there? What vehicle options? Can the target dodge onto a train? Are there turnstiles or similar?

Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM
  So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage".  Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically.  I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent.  You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".

You're claiming that an echo chamber means that there's no outrage. There have been plenty of threads here where the left-leaning posters are absent - which are still full of outrage. Likewise, there are plenty of left-leaning gaming echo chambers (like some Twitter threads and RPGnet) that have plenty of outrage against conservatives. If anything, I think echo chambers are more prone to outrage - as they unite in outrage against the other side.

The difference is whether the community is focused on actual gaming.

Local game store here had one copy on the shelf of the four that they ordered.

Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2022, 03:46:32 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on September 03, 2022, 09:44:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

As a player, basically everything you do involves rolling a Dice Pool (all d12) and counting successes. 
...
Although the game is almost 500 pages long, the text is very large.  They probably could have gotten it into half that many pages and kept it very legible.

I don't think complexity is an issue.  I do think distribution is.

To clarify, the rules mechanics aren't the main part of the learning curve. The biggest problem is in learning the background. It is a science fiction game where the PCs are educated members of a complex technological society, who also have psychic powers. The background is very densely written, describing a very unfamiliar world. None of the setting matches with familiar genres or history. As an example, if I were to run a chase scene in Cahokia, it seems very difficult to run. What sort of obstacles are there? What vehicle options? Can the target dodge onto a train? Are there turnstiles or similar?

Quote from: oggsmash on September 04, 2022, 02:47:14 PM
  So you play games with leftist progressives, you are a leftist progressive, in a part of the nation that is the most leftist progressive and see very little "outrage".  Well its because you are all of the same mind and the same bent politically.  I have no doubts you are not going to hear outrage at a game table, because you are all of the same bent.  You are always surrounded by people who know and will follow "the rules".

You're claiming that an echo chamber means that there's no outrage. There have been plenty of threads here where the left-leaning posters are absent - which are still full of outrage. Likewise, there are plenty of left-leaning gaming echo chambers (like some Twitter threads and RPGnet) that have plenty of outrage against conservatives. If anything, I think echo chambers are more prone to outrage - as they unite in outrage against the other side.

The difference is whether the community is focused on actual gaming.

  No, I think you would be unreliable reporting outrage in that environment.  I think there could be a lot or zero.  You just would not be the person I would expect a fair measure of it from.

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
From my point of view, I feel like there are regularly calls of histrionic and perpetual outrage here, and what you call "pollyanna" is my describing of my real-life experience of actual play in the SF Bay area, which is one of the most liberal areas in the country. So if actual gaming was experiencing a giant calamity because of "woke" influence, then presumably I'd see it in the 4+ local gaming conventions I go to each year.

I realize that people here tend to call others the "Outrage Brigade", but I see far more outrage here than in the SF Bay area gamers that I actually play with.

Regarding Coyote & Crow, I think very few people will actually play it. As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel - which has a small cult following but also has little actual play. A bunch of people were intrigued by the concept, but the actual play takes too much learning to get into. There have been a bunch of other RPGs in the past briefly lauded for intriguing premise, but little actual play. I'd compare it to the indie RPGs Steal Away Jordan and Kagematsu.

1: Your experience then is alot better than mine. Locally I have seen it creeping into the local players rhetoric and at least one of my local gaming group makes Deadman look reasonable. At least two artists I know have totally flipped out.

2: I agree here. Theres been a tendency to storm-in-a-teacup a bit much here. And sometimes over the smallest of things. But as noted many a time. Often its something small that somehow, some way comes back to bite you later. I just think theres too much outrage over what abounts to really nothing and not enough outrage over more glaring issues.

The other problem is that theres incessant baiting now to get these reactions.

And the other other problem is that often the outrage is directed at known instigators. After a while it starts to become second nature to see everything they do as suspect. Because more than half the time it is.

3: For me the problem is the politics behind it and how the designer has acted. I have a really intense dislike of these sorts of exploitation gags that come up every iteration of this stupid. That and there are at least a dozen ways to do this sort of premise without being offensive. Its like that handicapped RPG book. Started off looking relatively innocent. Then the designers started opening their mouths and it became very apparent what their agenda was. I reserve my ire for scum like them. C&R is just derivative and not worth much more effort than to point out just how wretched these creeps are.

Quote from: Thornhammer on September 03, 2022, 07:04:44 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
As I said, from reading it, it seems to have a more difficult learning curve than Tekumel

A steeper learning curve than Tekumel is no small feat. Damn.

Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.

Quote from: jhkim on September 07, 2022, 03:46:32 PM
To clarify, the rules mechanics aren't the main part of the learning curve. The biggest problem is in learning the background. It is a science fiction game where the PCs are educated members of a complex technological society, who also have psychic powers. The background is very densely written, describing a very unfamiliar world. None of the setting matches with familiar genres or history. As an example, if I were to run a chase scene in Cahokia, it seems very difficult to run. What sort of obstacles are there? What vehicle options? Can the target dodge onto a train? Are there turnstiles or similar?

Reading about the world, Cahokia does have metro stations (as marked on the map).  In keeping with the setting, there would not be any cost to people for boarding the trains - that's part of the social services provided by local council.  As a result, there would be no need for turnstiles. 

In terms of chase mechanics, those are described and abstracted - if someone is running away they need to get more successes than you do trying to catch them.  The SG and the players are encouraged to explain the result.  A good SG will have descriptive text ready and good players will use the scenery to make it easier for themselves or harder for their adversary.  The game does put a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of the SG and the setting information that is provided is relatively high-level. 

Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:45:49 AM

1: Your experience then is alot better than mine. Locally I have seen it creeping into the local players rhetoric and at least one of my local gaming group makes Deadman look reasonable. At least two artists I know have totally flipped out.

Here I'm seeing organized play more and more taken over by the "Trust and Safety" crowd, although the biggest organized group seems to have backed way off on requiring X-cards and safety tools and dialing down what counts as "harassment".

People playing on their own seem to be self-sorting.

Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:50:00 AM
Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.

Tekumel has never been that hard system wise.

Grokking the world, however, is another story.

I think the "barbarians new to the Empire" default of EPT was a brilliant choice in that respect.

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2022, 05:21:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:50:00 AM
Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.

Tekumel has never been that hard system wise.

Grokking the world, however, is another story.

I think the "barbarians new to the Empire" default of EPT was a brilliant choice in that respect.

It seems pretty damn easy to grock?

The year 60094. From out of space a runaway warp hurtles Tekumel into another dimension.
Unleashing cosmic destruction!
Man's civilization is cast in ruin. 32000 years later Tekumel is reborn.
A strange new world rises from the old. A world of savagery, super science and sorcery...

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2022, 05:20:53 PM

Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:45:49 AM

1: Your experience then is alot better than mine. Locally I have seen it creeping into the local players rhetoric and at least one of my local gaming group makes Deadman look reasonable. At least two artists I know have totally flipped out.

Here I'm seeing organized play more and more taken over by the "Trust and Safety" crowd, although the biggest organized group seems to have backed way off on requiring X-cards and safety tools and dialing down what counts as "harassment".

People playing on their own seem to be self-sorting.

If I may ask, where is 'here' for you?

I haven't seen any X-card bullshit of late at conventions (which is, oddly, the one place I could see them used without incident). But 'org play' in general might be different.

Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 09:21:38 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 08, 2022, 05:21:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on September 08, 2022, 06:50:00 AM
Tekimel isnt that hard? I have the "Adventures in" set and its pretty good for learning the system.

Tekumel has never been that hard system wise.

Grokking the world, however, is another story.

I think the "barbarians new to the Empire" default of EPT was a brilliant choice in that respect.

It seems pretty damn easy to grock?

The year 60094. From out of space a runaway warp hurtles Tekumel into another dimension.
Unleashing cosmic destruction!
Man's civilization is cast in ruin. 32000 years later Tekumel is reborn.
A strange new world rises from the old. A world of savagery, super science and sorcery...

Thundarr?  Is that you?